Trolleybuses on the West Coast

Trolleybuses were once a common phenomenon. Recently, it seems like more systems are shutting down than opening up. Are regular buses really that much better? Travel with us to San Francisco and Seattle, to experience two large trolleybus systems that have been proving the haters wrong for over 80 years.
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[@de-fault_de-fault]

Trolleybuses are a really smart solution for basically any higher density bus route, and providing them with battery power to extend their range beyond the wire network for part of their route would make them basically the perfect bus for any transit application. I'm so bummed they're gone from Boston and headed that way in Philly; we should be using them more, not less.

[@Thom-TRA]

Yes, this right here. They’re great for capacity, and reducing emissions for a large group of people at once.

[@michaelformaini7053]

Just 200 miles north of Seattle is Vancouver B.C.'s extensive trolley bus network. I have a friend who spent many years driving for B.C.Transit (now retired and looking after vintage buses in Burnaby) who arranged for me to visit their Marpole depot during my stopover enroute back home to Australia from Britain. Angus features on one of DownieLive's KZbin videos when Mike visited the Burnaby Transit Museum.🙂🙂🙂

[@Thom-TRA]

I’d love to visit Vancouver someday

[@SupremeLeaderKimJong-un]

When the 1.3-mile long Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel first opened, the tunnel had trolleybuses! And had a unique operation of being shared by buses and light rail from 2009 until 2019 when it became a light rail-only tunnel. You might be thinking, "How did Seattle end up with a big tunnel for buses?" Well, Seattle was supposed to get a subway system. The federal government offered hundreds of millions to cover 80 percent of the costs. The project was named Forward Thrust. However, King County voters opposed it twice in 1968 and 1970. And so, the money that would've been for Seattle, went to Atlanta instead for their MARTA system! The concept of a downtown bus tunnel was first proposed in 1974 during discussions between Governor Dan Evans and Seattle Mayor Wes Uhlman about regional transportation projects in response to the proposed extension of Interstate 90 into Seattle via a third floating bridge crossing Lake Washington. Plans were unveiled in 1984, and tunnel opened in 1990. From the outset, the bus tunnel was intended to be converted for light rail trains at some point in the future.

[@Thom-TRA]

When I visited the tunnel this past May, I kept thinking to myself, man I wish I could still see a bus driving through here!

[@AverytheCubanAmerican]

Yup, the last of the Boston trolleybuses on the Silver Line were replaced this month. A total of 43 trolleybus lines had historically existed, but not all concurrently, making the all-time total 44 (counting the Silver Line thing as one route). At its peak in 1952, the Boston system was the third-largest trolleybus system in the US, with only the Chicago and Atlanta systems having more trolleybuses than Boston's, which Boston had 463 trolleybuses at the time! Not in the US of course, but another trolleybus city on the west coast of North America is Vancouver! It first opened in 1948 and originally operated by the British Columbia Electric Railway. By 1954, Vancouver had the largest trolley bus fleet in Canada, with 327 units, and the fleet grew to an all-time peak of 352 in early 1957! Today, the system has a total length of nearly 200 miles and comprises 13 routes and is managed by the Coast Mountain Bus Company, a subsidiary of TransLink. It uses a fleet of 262 trolley buses. Of these, around 70 are articulated.

[@Unmannedperson]

They're also more pleasant to ride in. Instead of a loud, rumbling diesel engine, a trolleybus accelerating gives off an almost harmonic rise of doooooo-dee-dee-dee-deeeeeee as the electric motor spools up. Much nicer to listen to!

[@robertcartwright4374]

And when they stop, they make no noise at all, (unless the air compressor for the brakes is filling up the air tank). I'm always entranced by the small ambient sounds revealed in those moments.

[@Thom-TRA]

100% agree

[@Thom-TRA]

You can always tell it’s a new Flyer by the high-pitched squeak!

[@gdrriley420]

There was a big alternative study that just came out suggesting SF should massively expand their network to extend the range and service life of battery range extended trolleybuses.

[@Thom-TRA]

I agree with the study

[@user-bv9gm1kc2v]

Vancouver has the only system left in Canada. Those steep hills!

[@williamyoon7660]

3:07 I feel that the disadvantages of trolleybuses nowadays are outweighed by the disadvantages of battery-electric buses. Since battery-electric buses would need up to 3 hours of charging, transportation agencies would need to buy a higher quantity of these buses in order to run the same frequencies as agencies operating trolleybuses. The other thing to note is that many modern trolleybuses do have a small battery pack in order to operate short distances off-wire.

[@markmanz8897]

Go to Dayton, Ohio. It’s probably the most quirky trolley bus system, anywhere. And the people who live there, are awesome.

[@DanTheCaptain]

Trolleybuses are awesome. It’s really a shame that a lot of systems are being shutdown. I think they really are better than battery buses. I’ve been on the ones in Budapest, San Francisco and Vancouver and all of them are great! I think we should be bruising a lot of these historical networks using a combination of battery bus and trolleybus technology. It’s can be a great way to reduce emissions in the downtown core, and trolleybuses can also be used to run on tram right of ways too!

[@lynnshell78]

vancouver canada has had tolleybuses for over 74 years we love them we fought to keep them years ago when translink wanted to get rid of them lets just say it did not end well for translink at that time

[@rthproductions6507]

Great Video. I have been to both Seattle and SF (but I reside in San Francisco and have lived there all of my life). The trolley bus networks that both King County Metro and SF MUNI operate do not disappoint. Fun fact: MUNI and King County Metro bought the 60 foot New Flyer Xcelsior Trolleybuses via a joint procurement in 2014.

[@AshmewStudios]

Also Muni's trolleybuses can run about 2 miles off the wires and on the 30 Stockton the end of the line (Sports Basement Parking Lot) does not actually have wires. MBTA should have gotten trolleybuses with larger battery packs to fully electrify the Silver Line.

[@chicagolandrailroader]

Seeing those trolleybuses operate alongside the PCCS was pretty cool. Thanks for the video!

[@Thom-TRA]

San Francisco has some awesome modes of transport all coming together

[@MiaCollinsNeighborhood]

@@Thom-TRA It's an honor to have you in my region Thom thank you for visiting come again soon! You really opened up the Golden Gate to all your viewers. Thank you Thom

[@obus7800]

I drove trolleys for nearly 15 years before the system was dismantled in Hamilton (ON, Canada) in 1994. There was a good deal of intrigue involved in the demise of the system. A consultant's study clearly demonstrated their superiority but there were politcal forces at work pushing CNG buses as a replacement. I wrote an article (Dewired) for an American publication that never saw the light of day...the magazine decided they only wanted to publish "good" news stories. Someday I hope to finish a book I started pre-cancer...I think it will open a few eyes. Unfortunately, transit decisions are often made by people with little expertise in the field.

[@Thom-TRA]

Wow, “good news stories?” Sounds like they had an agenda… Wishing you a speedy recovery. Thanks for sharing your story!

[@expletivedeleted7853]

I would absolutely love to see you finish that book so I can buy a copy of it. I would love to hear your first hand experience with these amazing parts of our transport network that are so unappreciated and fast becoming forgotten.

[@qazisnotapeopleperson7167]

I know that san Francisco's trolley busses have battery's so they can operate away from the wires. Making reroutes easier. I visit a lot and frequently see them running off the wires on battery.

[@Thom-TRA]

Yes, I noticed that too that many times they were off-wire, event downtown where there are wires.

[@davidburgess3882]

Seattle's are the same.

[@davidburgess3882]

Gee. Like I didn't know that...

[@kevinhoward9593]

Philly still has 3 routes. we used to have 5 but two were cutback. Vancouver is a trolleybus paradise. they have like 110 routes.

[@Thom-TRA]

I can’t wait to visit Vancouver someday

[@robertcartwright4374]

Actually just 13 routes, but thanks for the compliment!

[@user-pr9mk7qf6s]

Even Moscow haven't had a 110 trolleybus routes at best times.

[@kennedvestel39]

I really like the trolleybus systems in the Baltic states. Especially the old Škoda 14 and 15tr trolleybuses which also used to be in San Francisco in the past.

[@Cupertinorail]

I used to operate one trolleybus line in SF from 2016-2019 and from what I heard is that SFMTA also retains old trolley buses for special events. I drove the 33 bus and sometimes I drove the cable car. I heard about the Japanese trolley buses, they were pretty cool but never ridden it. I was born in Seattle and I liked the trolleybuses better than the regular ones because they don't go through neighborhoods that put me at a risk of death. Don't believe me? I went back to Seattle in 2022 and drove down one of the most dangerous streets ever. Not the place for a single guy to be. I am very glad the Seattle trolleybuses don't go down that road. You also forgot Vancouver, Canada trolleybuses, they are the coolest thing I ever saw and strangely enough are super safe.

[@latras529]

In seattle, trolley busses have backup batteries that allow for reroute and pass if needed.

[@jfmezei]

vancouver Canada also has trolley buses. I think one problem is with trolleys getting “unhooked” from the wires requiring driver to go outside to place the trolley back onto the overhead wires. Toronto Canada had/has trolley trams and replacing with pantograph line by line to increase reliability. (and trams only have 1 wire abive). Note that the trolley on buses is very long and its sway makes it easy to pass a car in the way or get close to sidewalk at stops.

[@sunspot42]

@@TohaBgood2 Yup. Having a battery that can run for a mile or two makes this a non-issue.

[@TBTboston]

Im sad that Boston got rid of the trackless trolleys :( the Silver Line DMAs could have lasted another 5 years or so. Anyways, Great video!

[@Thom-TRA]

I’m not sure what the rush was in getting rid of them

[@TBTboston]

@@Thom-TRA same

[@williamyoon7660]

Same here, the MBTA could've easily kept the trolleybus wires in order to accelerate bus electrification efforts.

[@TBTboston]

@@williamyoon7660 IKR!!!!!

[@MarkBustos2]

Here in NYC, we used to the trolleybus until the 1960's. In Mexico City is progress of expanding the trolleybus system. One the trolleybus route being elevated between Santa Marta Line A Station to Constitution of 1917 Line 8 Station.

[@Thom-TRA]

I believe the one in Mexico City is the longest on the continent, correct me if I’m wrong

[@MarkBustos2]

@@Thom-TRA it is.

[@dianethulin1700]

Route 24 in San Francisco had a documentary film made out of it about 15 years ago. It is known as the Diversity Bus since it goes from the housing projects, through the Castro, loops over the Fillmore and ends in Pacific Heights. Around the time of that film coming out I happened to work along this bus line. One day a trash truck came along Divisadero with it's back end up and destroyed the overhead wires for the trolly busses. Traffic was snarled up for a few hours while workmen repaired the wires to get this bus line back up and running. Another time around 25 years ago there was a major power outage on the West Coast. These trolly busses were frozen with no power. I say many blocking the intersections along Market Street. This was before vehicles were banned on Market. So another disadvantage is loss of power

[@Thom-TRA]

I’d love to see the documentary

[@schermnaam5811]

When living on Hill street (atop the hill separating the Castro & Noe Valley), a friend visiting from NL would hang out at (the since closed) Cafe Flore and then wait for the 24 bus in lieu of hiking up the 2.5 blocks of Castro Steet from 19th to Hill! It’s practically a slow moving roller coaster! (The documentary was a student bus riders project, it’s up on YT)

[@dianethulin1700]

@@schermnaam5811 I always laugh at the misnomer “Hill” in SF. Those are mountains! Yes I know where you are talking about. I haven’t been to Cafe Flore in years! We called it Cafe Hair since everyone was such a hipster

[@sunspot42]

The modern trolley busses have fairly large batteries - I think they can run a couple of miles off-grid. They really are the best solution in compact areas or along long simple routes and I'm stunned more of them aren't being deployed.

[@dianethulin1700]

@@sunspot42 I was wondering about that. It was fairly common about 20 years ago to have to get off and board another bus if the one you were riding ran out of juice. Things got so bad that a grassroots Muni rescue group was formed. This hasn’t happened to me in a long time now. I did have to get off the T train and board a bus last week because the Fourth Street Bridge was up to allow a ship through. Currently the operator will have to disembark to engage the overhead wires. That happens a lot

[@alanwyatt4538]

Trolley buses were also popular in the UK with most being double deckers. At one time most medium size towns had a sstem and London had an extensive system. , and I think a lot of people found them a great mode of travel. However diesel became King and most places converted to that. I am not aware of anywhere in the UK having a system so the only places to travel on them is a Heritage museum and there are not many of those that have them. Good for Seattle and San Francisco.

[@kristianerickson6197]

Trolleybuses are awesome, I think. I lived in Seattle and rode them regularly, and while this isn't a big deal to most, I loved the fact that when another bus came to my stop while I waited for mine, the air didn't stink of diesel exhaust when the other bus departed, and that departure was fast, not slow and lumbering like a diesel bus..

[@Thom-TRA]

Clean air is so underrated

[@Cupertinorail]

I don't mean to be picky but as a native Seattlelite, I love the green and yellow paint scheme better than what I see now.

[@sir_dragonfly7287]

I remember taking the trolley busses all over when I lived in Seattle, I really wish I could go back.

[@mariachrzski18]

Vancouver BC also operates a trolleybus network of 262 trolleybuses and 13 routes, and the city is very hilly!

[@michaelkiesling8148]

San Francisco's fleet has had battery back-up for the last two fleets. The current fleet can run off-wire for a long time, allowing for all the flexibility of diesel buses. Two lines, the 22 and 30, were recently extended to destinations with no overhead. The 30 used to end at Broderick and Beach, near the Palace of Fine Arts. It now runs off wire along Marina Boulevard into the Presidio, to terminate near the Tunnel Tops park. Even your video shows trolleys in SF running with the poles down. As someone who rides trolleys everyday, the freedom of cropping the poles to go around big obstructions or make detours for construction or street fairs is a wonderful change. Finally, SF kept its electric buses because the city generates its own electricity as part of the municipal water system, so 100% clean and very low-cost energy.

[@Thom-TRA]

I didn’t know that about generating their own electricity! That’s really cool

[@auberginebear]

I went with someone to San Francisco in 2021 and got a chance to ride Those trolly buses, but I much prefer the ones in Seattle.

[@hobog]

Seattle's KCM battery bus announcement for 50th anniversary got a lot of flak. If some of them could work with trolley wire, especially on hills, that'd be cool

[@kevanhubbard9673]

I think that the only 2 places I've been on trolley buses on our planet are ; Cambridge, Massachusetts, USA (maybe Boston too as they are technically different places but I can't remember if it was a diesel bus or trolley) and the other place was Chisinau AKA Kishinev, Moldova.

[@wayneeschbank2895]

Very interesting and I thought that they where on the increase not decline, We have none in Australia now but all cities operated them in the early 1900's but trams/light rail are on the way back

[@dianethulin1700]

I love those vintage streetcars! Excellent episode! Love public transit!

[@teecefamilykent]

Brilliant video! Does this mean you may have to go to Dayton?

[@Thom-TRA]

I’d need a lot of convincing since it’s hard for me to get to

[@teecefamilykent]

But apart from that lol.

[@MiaCollinsNeighborhood]

As an Oakland native it is an honor to have my region covered by you! Thank you so much for covering this region and based on what I have seen, you are definitely on the right track!

[@brianhubert8418]

Thanks for sharing. It was so weird seeing those silver line buses shoot in South Station within fare control in a tunnel as I'd go from the Red line up to catch Amtrak or the Commurter Rail! Hope to ride one someday if I get to one of the cities that runs them.

[@Chronograph71]

Thank you! I live in a city with plenty of trollebuses (since 1936). My country's capital city got tried of their trollebuses in favor of battery powered electric buses (but in my books the jury is still out on those due to our colder climate and issues with battery recycling). You are welcome to visit one day, in a few years time, although that's going to be a long trip. :-)))

[@thecreator772]

One thing to note about Seattle trolley buses is that Metro completely motorizes the system on weekends (expect for major holiday weekends). Trolley buses really only run consistently Monday through Friday. All the trolleys have battery power though. Metro for some reason refuses to use it for weekend detours.

[@Thom-TRA]

So weird

[@pauld2810]

I used to drive Seattle trolleybusses back in the 1980s. Back then, they told me one pole was positive electrical current and the other pole was negative. But, they said, unlike most other systems, it didn't matter which pole connected to which overhead wire. So, if a lane was blocked, poles could be placed on the wires in the other lane, so the bus could be guided around the obstruction. These days, I'm a passenger, and the current fleet has batteries that allow a trolleybus to be driven about 3 miles with the poles lowered.

[@EpicThe112]

The correct solution is actually using XT40s with the battery of XE40 on the I-90 Silver Line section XT60 with XE60 battery pack. For Seattle and San Francisco this type might be useful on routes that need both types of electric power that way they can go back to the depot and charge like a BEV or use OHLE to charge a battery. You can see this inside in Germany where Deutsche Bahn AkkuTriebwagen Baureihe 563 Siemens Mireo DB Baureihe 515 Stadler Flirt charge on the existing 15kv 16.7hz AC once off the OHLE run like a battery train end of trip charge like a BEV or charge via 15kv 16.7hz AC. For the Philly system, you are looking at 59 66 and 75 Wayne Junction.

[@ck4426]

Love this video and the sweet trolley buses!!!

[@stroke_of_luck]

Trollybusses are great for hills. Muni replaced the 1 line with diesel for a week that made riders furious because the diesels smelled horrible getting up the hill, when they didn’t have to have people get off for several blocks.

[@RaymondHng]

Sacramento and Clay streets were served by the 55 Sacramento diesel bus line from 1942 to 1982. The diesel buses struggled to go up Nob Hill. The steepest portion was Sacramento between Stockton and Mason. Having the passengers disembark and walk up the hill was a common occurrence. It was replaced with the 1 California electric trolleybus line on January 27, 1982.

[@Zyir626]

Hey Thom you should check out our Trolley buses in Philly the routes are 59 66 & 75. The 59 & 75 both run out of Arrot Transportation Center and the 66 runs out a Frankford but you can board them in different places around the Greater Philadelphia Area.

[@andreyswiesciak-maddox7242]

Love trolleybuses!

[@bcshelby4926]

...my old hometown of Milwaukee WI had a fairly extensive network that was retired in the mid 1960s. I still remember riding on the old Orange and Cream Marmons and Pullmans. I've ridden the trolley buses in both San Francisco and Seattle. One of the major reasons the two cities have expanded their networks are the hills the buses have to deal with. I remember Metro using GM New Looks on what is referred to as the Counterbalance (which originally has a unique type of hybrids Hybrid streetcar/cable car which took a lot of punishment grinding up that steep grade. When the lines operating on the hill went under the wires, it made a big difference. Portland (where I currently live) also had a large trolleybus network operated by (Rose City Transit) which ceased operations in 1958 and moved in to all petrol./diesel powered buses. Currently TriMet (which replaced Rose City in 1969) is placing their hopes on battery electric buses though here is some sentiment for returning to trolley buses. The agency already operates and extensive LRT network (5 lines with a 6th in the planning stage) as well as two city operated local streetcar lines. so there's a modest web of catenary in the city centre. The one advantage of trolley buses over battery electric, is they can be on the route all day with no need to return to the base to recharge or require intermittent fast charge stations.(the latter which take a toll on total battery life). Another is that they are technologically much simpler than battery electric or hybrid buses. One concept advanced in another video here on KZbin was the idea of a dual mode trolley and battery electric vehicle that could recharge its batteries while on line as well as through regenerative braking. This way a bus can go "offline" but wouldn't need to rely on a petrol or diesel engine to do so.

[@EricaGamet]

I live along one of the trolley bus routes... or rather I did because they axed my route during the pandemic. There's lots of consideration going on whether or not to bring it back. But I chose this place based on the proximity to the route, so I hope it comes back (I'm partially disabled so it would be nice to have my route back). One of the advantages is also the lack of noise made by the vehicles. The most I would hear when the line was running was a slight "chirp chirp" from the overhead lines when it was about a block away and the "whirrrr" as it passed my place. You probably saw the lines/stops along your walk, as I saw my block in some of your Seattle videos.

[@Thom-TRA]

Did the entire route get suspended or just the trolleybus operation?

[@EricaGamet]

@@Thom-TRA The entire route. It was a short one... just downtown to Capitol Hill's north end (Summit Slope area). Route 47.

[@Thom-TRA]

@@EricaGamet I’m sorry to hear that!

[@tommarino1056]

Interesting video. I think more places should look into trolley buses.

[@Thom-TRA]

I think so too! Unfortunately building wires is expensive

[@stasing_0718]

We also have the same problem in Bulgaria as well. Multiple cities that used to have trolleybuses, were completely removed do to either poor management of the trolleys themselves or they weren’t supporting them that much. I live in Plovdiv ( the 2nd biggest city in Bulgaria ) and it used to have the longest trolleybus system in the country, but after 2012 they removed the entire transport completely, cause it had one of the worst wires in Bulgaria and it had numerous problems. And now recently, yes RECENTLY, they will purchase new electric buses via EU materials. Burgas city is also having the same fate with their trolleybus system as well. They recently stopped the trolleybuses to operate and replaced them with electric buses. The only cities that are still supporting the system are Sofia ( the capital ), Stara Zagora, Pleven, Vraca, Sliven and maybe Varna, with Pleven having the biggest trolleybus system in the country with over 22 lines of trolleybuses ( it’s the 7th biggest city in Bulgaria btw ). They have more trolleybuses than regular buses.

[@Thom-TRA]

I have never been to Bulgaria but I would love to someday!

[@stasing_0718]

@@Thom-TRA I recommend it, especially Plovdiv. The center is really beautiful.

[@user-pj9jd6tu7w]

For now, it is worth adding that Prague has reopened trolleybus traffic and continues to develop it.

[@Thom-TRA]

Prague is my favorite city on the US West Coast

[@davidaldinger113]

Prague your favorite city on the west coast? Surely you jest.

[@Thom-TRA]

@@davidaldinger113 it’s called irony

[@davidaldinger113]

I get it but to me it’s really kind of funny, that’s all.

[@lukehalmrast7366]

You should check out Vancouver BC. We have a very large trolley bus network, in fact we are the only city to have Newflyer E60LFR articulated trolleys. They are getting replaced with new trolley buses close to the end of the decade so you should visit here in the coming years to experience them!

[@jimstraveladventures3961]

Thom did you know that the San Francisco Trolley buses can also run on Battery power.

[@SF_SPOTTER]

As a person who lives in SF there are a couple non trollybusses in SF

[@Thom-TRA]

Yes of course

[@lukestrainsandotherstuff]

Great video!

[@Thom-TRA]

Thanks!

[@londonwhaley8690]

I enjoyed that video👍👍

[@Thom-TRA]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@BernardS4]

how about doing Medelin, Colombia

[@daveinthewildOG]

I was behind on watching this one, but finally caught up. I live near the Dayton area. So if you decide that you want to follow up and do Dayton and trolley buses, let me know. I suppose if not I could just do some partner content.

[@Thom-TRA]

I’m sure it will eventually happen. I’ll let you know!

[@glennmoyer1033]

I didn't see it in your list of advantages but they are quieter than ICE busses by a long way. I was in the Harvard station many years ago and at that time they were using both trolley and diesel buses in the tunnel and the noise was horrendous especially in comparison. Sad to hear that the T has gone away from trolley buses.

[@ClassyWhale]

On a serious note, I do wonder if left-wing politics plays a role in both cities keeping trolleybuses, as they're better for the environment than either diesel or battery (at least, if there's a clean power source! big if...) and left-leaning politicians are generally more likely to bankroll something that looks and feels "clean"

[@Thom-TRA]

Definitely convincing. I’m sure politics play a big part, though both these cities also have plenty of horrible freeways. I wonder about Dayton though?

[@tonywalters7298]

@@Thom-TRA The Greater Dayton RTA was formed in 1971, following a public takeover of the last remaining private transit operator in the area, City Transit. The system was running a deficit in the 80s the RTA board voted to disband the system in 1988. In 1991, the board reversed their decision, after determining the trolley buses had lower operating costs over their lifetime. The system had sustained some setbacks with tornados causing extensive damage in 2019, and of course the effects of COVID presently. They are upgrading the power systems to support dual mode buses, as the power infrastructure in use presently is quite old.

[@expletivedeleted7853]

Well the source of power in San Francisco is the Hetch Hetchy dam and reservoir in Yosemite, which is also San Francisco’s source of drinking water. (Power for transit and municipal buildings that is)

[@RaymondHng]

@@Thom-TRA The steep hill terrain of San Francisco plays a major role in keeping trolley buses and converting diesel bus lines to electric trolleybus bus lines. The system includes the single steepest known grade on any existing trolley bus line in the world (22.8% in the block of Noe Street between Cesar Chavez Street and 26th Street on route 24-Divisadero), and several other sections of Muni trolley bus routes are among the world's steepest. The steep hills contribute to higher maintenance costs of diesel buses as they struggled to climb the hills. Making passengers disembark a fully loaded diesel bus and walk up the hill was common occurrence. Electric motors typically last longer than internal combustion motors, and cause less secondary damage from vibration, so electric buses tend to be very long-lived compared to motorbuses. There are plans to expand trolleybus service in several parts of the city. Several extensions to existing trolleybus lines are planned, including 14-Mission service to the Daly City BART station, 6-Haight/Parnassus service to West Portal Station, 33-Ashbury/18th Street service across Potrero Hill to Third Street, 45-Union-Stockton service to the Letterman Digital Arts Center in the Presidio and 24-Divisadero service into the former Hunters Point shipyard. Other expansion plans include electrification of some diesel bus lines, with the most likely lines for conversion being the 9-San Bruno, 10-Townsend and 47-Van Ness. Electrification of the 10-Townsend line would likely be joined by an extension of the line across Potrero Hill to San Francisco General Hospital. Other lines that may be electrified are the 7-Haight-Noriega, 27-Bryant, and 43-Masonic.

[@numbernineminibusproductio670]

And don't forget Vancouver. It certainly does seem to be a West Coast thing! When Seattle was trying to upgrade their trolleybuses, they borrowed one from Vancouver for a test run kzbin.info/www/bejne/iIq9g3-pZ7ygY5o

[@ninthwardchicago]

I wish Chicago still had trolleybuses, they were out of service before I was born. I also wish Chicago had streetcars too. They would be perfect for those who don't like fossil fuels, but then electric buses are what you're most likely to see now.

[@Thom-TRA]

I do wish I’d been able to witness the streetcar network

[@norlockv]

I rode the electric CTA busses as a child. Loved the sparking from the overhead wires when it rained. The combination of blizzards and increased car traffic made them less useful as the years passed.

[@davidnovakreadspoetry]

My uncle (and I assume other boys) was known to jump on the back of the bus, and somehow tie down the trolley poles. Then when the bus went over a dip in the road, they would disconnect and the bus would lose power. I can’t imagine how that was done, but it was sure a different world back in those days. I suppose he was born almost a hundred years ago, so the Chicago system would have been in its infancy then.

[@Alejandro-vn2si]

Are you going to make a future video about BART?

[@Thom-TRA]

Of course

[@frankbernotimm3031]

As far as I know it's possible, to combine Battery and Wire in the bus like in tramcars. Right? - I personally regret, that Boston pulled the plug. - Am I right: Were Seattle use German trolleys of MAN?

[@Thom-TRA]

Yes, you can combine them, just like you can combine gas and trolleybuses. Of course, the individual vehicles will be a bit more expensive.

[@frankbernotimm3031]

@@Thom-TRA I want to add: Basel, Hoyerswerda and Weimar (both East Germany) pulled the plugs also.

[@davidw1518]

For the benefit of those of us on the other side of the Pond, when you talk about buses being run on "gas", do you mean hydrogen (which IS a gas), or petrol ("gasoline" in American English) (which, of course, is actually a liquid, not a gas)?

[@Thom-TRA]

Diesel, diesel hybrid, or gasoline. But not hydrogen.

[@expletivedeleted7853]

There are a handful of cities that have started experimenting with hydrogen fuel cell busses, but it’s still a very new thing and there are issues with sourcing hydrogen, at least sourcing it with a smaller carbon footprint.

[@thetransitspotter]

I always thought Trolley buses were cool ever since i was little

[@Thom-TRA]

They are cool!

[@snoopyloopy]

A shame that they went to diesel instead of at least CNG.

[@jpg3702]

Guadalajara, Mexico had a trolley bus line when I visited in 2019.

[@edeinhorn6016]

I don't know where the name "trolleybus" came from, but growing up in Philadelphia in the 60's and 70's we always called them "trackless trolleys". In fact, I still see that name on the official SEPTA website. To me, "trackless trolley" seems much more descriptive of the actual vehicle than "trolleybus".

[@Thom-TRA]

It’s a bus, using trolley poles… to me, it seems like a more descriptive name than trackless trolley, since as buses they’re structurally much different than streetcars.

[@RaymondHng]

In San Francisco, these vehicles are also known as "trolley coaches", a term that was the most common name for trolleybuses in the United States in the middle decades of the 20th century.

[@MusikCassette]

Why would battery electric busses replace Trolly busses? you still want the overhead lines to charge the batteries while driving.

[@johngorman6641]

Don’t most modern tolleybuses have small batteries that allow for detours ?

[@Thom-TRA]

They do so it takes care of that problem

[@lxlix21]

Can you do one on Canada's Trollys?

[@Thom-TRA]

If I ever go to Canada. What’s there besides Vancouver?

[@lxlix21]

@@Thom-TRA I think translink is the only one to still have it but, we don't use XTs for our trollys. We have DE60LFR and E40LF

[@RaymondHng]

@@Thom-TRA Vancouver has the only surviving trolleybus system in Canada. On June 18, 2008, the Edmonton city council voted 7 to 6 in favor of phasing out the trolley bus system in 2009 and 2010. However, city council decided in April 2009 that trolley bus service would be discontinued earlier than originally planned, in order to reduce the city's expected $35 million deficit in 2009. The last day of service was May 2, 2009.

[@ratedpz9461]

I love how you started your amazing intro with Boston. Even though it's sad news there are no more trolley buses in the Boston area, it seems like they are a bit hard to operate and maintain, so maybe its for the better. As a Bostonian, I am sad I never got to ride the trolleybuses that start at Harvard, and only have ridden the Silver Line. You can still see the overhead wires on Mass Ave, Concord Ave, Huron Ave, Mount Auburn Street, Aberdeen Ave, and the Harvard Bus Tunnel (I might've missed some) and I wonder when they're gonna take them down. Hopefully SF and Seattle will keep their Trolleybuses, not to mention Philly and Dayton. (I never expected Dayton)

[@expletivedeleted7853]

They really are not difficult at all, and in fact have much lower operating costs and even more significantly lower total lifetime costs. There is no downside besides the initial costs for infrastructure.

[@expletivedeleted7853]

And the flexibility argument in favor of diesel is complete fantasy. All trolley busses sold now have equal flexibility to move around route obstructions. It’s 100% a Nimby thing. Which shows how stupid your average Nimby is. Diesel busses are very loud. Electric, not at all loud.

[@sunspot42]

@@expletivedeleted7853 Forget the noise, diesel pollution is THE WORST. Those particulates are a cancer spew.

[@ratedpz9461]

@@expletivedeleted7853 Just to clarify, I am all for trolley buses, and I am not frustrated at all about the trolley lines overhead, however I am curious to know if the city of Cambridge will ever take them down since it seems like they unfortunately won’t be used in the near future. To add on, buses that run completely on diesel are definitely worse than battery electric and trolley buses, both in environmental terms and in human health terms. At the time I was thinking that since the MBTA got rid of the trolley buses, they could at least replace them with easier to maintain battery-electric buses or hybrid buses, and that would be for the better, (in retrospect I should’ve done my research because it is now apparent to me that trolley buses are not hard to maintain). Thank you for making me aware of this error, I should’ve been more clear and done my research, and I hope to understand much more about public transit through these videos.

[@expletivedeleted7853]

@@ratedpz9461 I guess the ideal situation would be a change in leadership at the T and a focus on ordering new TB’s and a reactivation of the wires. I’m not sure if anyone is advocating for that actively, so it may never happen. Once they pull the wires down that feels like the true end of the line, because starting fresh would be like the very beginning planning of a system and require environmental reports etc. I am also shocked that they did not at the very least order BEB’s as replacements.

[@durandjohnson1321]

Don't forget Vancouver B.C.

[@Thom-TRA]

Oops, I didn’t realize the US had absorbed Canada

[@mcj1m_noonewillfindthis]

This is such a shame... Trolleybusses are great for medium capacity routes and for places where tram or light rail isn't realistically possible. Yes, they cost a lot to build, but the vehicles are extremely cheap to buy and to maintain and they can run like any other bus on the street, without big modifications. They also accelerate quicker than normal busses, and all this without emissions. Battery electric busses are just a cheap copycat that will cause problems in 10 years when the cells have degraded...

[@user-mv4sf8lx3x]

trolleybus is more cost-effective than bus or electric bus

[@gatoooom_]

i think that trolleybuses aren't the future of transit but are a cheap option rather than streetcars, specially in the US. (also Canada and Mexico are cardboard countries)

[@Thom-TRA]

There’s a reason they call them trackless trolleys

[@expletivedeleted7853]

Battery electric busses struggle with steep grades, so any city with hills will need to put wires up to go electric for the foreseeable future.

[@theconceptualist8626]

3:40 *Canada does not exist *Neither does Mexico 😂😂😂

[@ckildegaard]

Unfortunately, San Francisco is hoping to never buy trolleybuses again and eventually convert their entire bus system to battery electric. While it may be more cost-effective and reduce some of the technological limitations, I'll certainly miss the sounds and sights of trolleybuses in a few years!

[@Thom-TRA]

That’s really sad news!

[@videonut1988]

What do ya call the new XT40s and 60s? They were STILL new and can do the stuff the XE40s can do.

[@RaymondHng]

There are plans to expand trolleybus service in several parts of the city. Several extensions to existing trolleybus lines are planned, including 14-Mission service to the Daly City BART station, 6-Haight/Parnassus service to West Portal Station, 33-Ashbury/18th Street service across Potrero Hill to Third Street, 45-Union-Stockton service to the Letterman Digital Arts Center in the Presidio and 24-Divisadero service into the former Hunters Point shipyard. Other expansion plans include electrification of some diesel bus lines, with the most likely lines for conversion being the 9-San Bruno, 10-Townsend and 47-Van Ness. Electrification of the 10-Townsend line would likely be joined by an extension of the line across Potrero Hill to San Francisco General Hospital. Other lines that may be electrified are the 7-Haight-Noriega, 27-Bryant, and 43-Masonic.

[@expletivedeleted7853]

The old argument about needing to have a wire is no longer valid. There is no current model made by any manufacturer that doesn’t have at least SOME off wire ability. This might be only 5 minutes or so, but usually a lot longer, like an hour or two. In fact I see many many MUNI busses running poles down these days, with the driver raiding them at the end as they go on break, or raising them before a large hill.

[@jpg3702]

Yes they go off wires to go around construction projects too. Rte 24 was doing this for many months in the Castro because of some deep roadwork. I noticed they have a plastic device on the wires so when they re-attach, they don't have to get out of the bus.

[@EricaGamet]

There is a particularly difficult turn on one of the routes near me in Seattle... and a new driver will typically take it too wide and fall off the wires. The bus just dies, usually half-way across traffic until the battery can kick in. It's also on a hill and it's always a nail-biter haha!