Trombones and Tubas are NOT in Concert Pitch! (Revised Version)

[@DrTomatoClock]

Trent - So let's talk a little bit about the saxophone family Me - Goodbye

[@derpysheep5872]

DrTimmyTime me: hello

[@whothoughtthiswasagoodidea]

based

[@bramjessen]

To make it just a bit more confusing, in the Netherlands (and I believe Belgium and France also) parts for the tuba's (BBb or Eb) are written transposed and in bass clef. I play BBb tuba in a concert band where I read in bass clef and I also play BBb tuba in brassband where I read in treble cleff. But for both I use the same fingering.

[@thomasbland6428]

Baritone players are quite familiar with this. Some, like me, started playing bass clef. People that were switched from trumpet usually read the same music in treble clef. Like the trumpet, baritone treble clef music is pitched in C, not Bb like baritone bass clef. By doing that, the fingerings are the same as a trumpet. It's one of the few instruments in a high school band where music regularly comes with the parts in both clefs. I learned to read and play treble clef baritone music because occasionally the bass clef parts were lost or never returned in prior years.

[@tekcomputers]

That was my experience as well. Baritone and Euphonium parts in the low brass tend to be the ones most frequent to have parts in treble clef.

[@ericmschroeder4682]

I think the problem you're running into is that all of the instruments you claimed usually read Bb treble clef actually read C bass clef in the American Public School system.

[@tekcomputers]

May be in the intermediate and beginning bands, but in public high school in our wind ensemble we dealt with treble clef parts for the low brass.

[@paulagoodwin1707]

But not in Brass Bands which are a totally different animal altogether

[@wisegamer706]

@@tekcomputers I play in university and we only do c bass clef or tenor clef. In highschool it was only C bass clef.

[@cavalcadeofbobs3559]

He never said that they usually read Bb treble clef, only that they sometimes did.

[@TheWorstThrowEver]

Basically, the way I've always distinguished the two schools of thought is Transposing: Written note defines a fingering, and a partial in that harmonic series Non-transposing: Written note defines a pitch I hate reading in transposing clefs, because I know what a note feels and sounds like. I know how a C feels on a tuba, so without transposing all tubas have a C that feels the same. Put me in a brass band, and all of a sudden you tell me to play a C and you're actually telling me to play the 1st harmonic with no valves, whatever that note may be. If I buzz a C, I will be sharp on a BBb tuba, and produce weird false tones on an EEb tuba (I have not seen CC or FF tubas in transposing environments). New fingerings don't take long to learn if you're comfortable enough with your harmonic series, far easier to modify those gross motor skills than the fine skills used to retrain your embouchure.

[@Xzyum00]

I think the biggest thing that you didn't get across here is that all the low brass instruments are BUILT in B flat, which makes them not in C as far as the instrument its self. B flat is the fundamental key for them and as far as technically that's the easiest key for them to play in because they were built for that key. Although you did explain that in the last video, most people have trouble understanding the difference in the key of the instrument, and the key that the instrument READS in. Although there are C tubas and F tubas and less common instruments that ARE built in C, for most bands they are built in B flat.

[@generaljefe2749]

Can you do a video explaining the alto and tenor clef?

[@djadesi]

El Jefe alto and tenor clefs are just "c" clefs meaning that the center of the design of the clef shows where middle c is on the staff. Just like the swirl on the treble clef indicates where g is and the dot on bass clef shows where f is, alto and tenor clefs show where middle c is. The reason for this is to avoid excessive ledger lines above or below the treble or bass clefs, which makes the notes easier to read and hundreds of years ago, saved ink.

[@generaljefe2749]

Tuba Jesus Thanks for explaining it to me I always got puzzled by alto and tenor clefs. Thanks👍. The notes are the same for those clefs right?

[@tylercurtis6422]

El Jefe The pitches for the C chefs are basically the same, but the middle C is based on where the center of the clef is. I.e. In alto clef Middle C is on the mid-line of the staff (the "b" line in terms of treble clef) whereas Middle C in tenor clef is on the line above the center of the staff (the "d" line on the treble staff) and the pitches change location accordingly. A quick google search or look at any Wikipedia page will help solidify this for you.

[@jrlepage2a03]

What Tuba Jesus and Tyler Curtis said is absolutely right. I would add that a quick tip for learning tenor clef specifically (not alto clef!) is that it is pitched exactly a perfect fifth above bass clef. Realising this fact gave me a much easier time when I was trying to learn it, so I'm passing it along.

[@generaljefe2749]

Thanks all of yall for clarifying this for me. I was curious on how those two particular clefs worked. Thanks 😄.

[@ckeilah]

Thank you for creating this amazingly educational channel, and leaving it up for us. I do miss new videos, but the fact that we can always come back to the old ones is simply amazing. 😻

[@mr.r5587]

The bottom line is the fundamental pitch in the overtone series. If your fundamental pitch is Bb then you are a Bb instrument. In the case of trombone, baritone/euph and Bb tuba, they are transposing into C even though their fundamental pitch is Bb. It all goes back to fundamental pitch. Concert Pitch = C C tuba = Concert Pitch Bb tuba reading in C = Bb transposing to C In reality, trumpet players actually have it correct and yes I obviously have a bias as a trumpet player

[@Benray86]

I think it's easier to say "this instrument is pitched in _____ as a fundamental but reads in _____" Also, as a trombone player in America, I wish all instruments read in C :)

[@aboveaveragebayleaf9216]

If trombones trasposed then you wouldn't have to learn a new set of slide positons in order to play the different members of the family like alto bone. You would also only have to play in one clef.

[@FunFacts1200]

Me too I'm a trombone player

[@hugofritz8238]

@@aboveaveragebayleaf9216 but this slide positions would it make much easier to switch to a Tenorhorn or trompet...

[@rogermwilcox]

Treble clef? More like *TROUBLE* clef, am I right ladies?

[@samuelyang6463]

Cricket noises...

[@kendanpowers4535]

rogermwilcox don't quit your day job.

[@jordanbrown8227]

BPA-Free Plastic Water Bottle You high brass and high Woodwinds would be lost without the bass. (Insert evil laugh here)

[@majcrash]

I prefer Terrible Clef.

[@Maty743A]

You should do a video explaining the differences between mouthpiece numbers etc. Could be quite interesting and it is something many players are not sure on :)

[@DinoboySeth]

I’ve been delving deeper into brass instruments trying to understand this concept (saxophones, brass bands, transposing) and this helped so much. I needed this, bless! Thank you

[@MichaelSidneyTimpson]

In general, playing a "different fingering" for the same pitch on different types of low brass instruments (i.e. F, CC, and BBb Tubas or alto and tenor trombones) instead of transposing is because, in contrast to woodwinds, there is a very small amount of fingerings/positions to remember, and their effect along with the harmonic series is very easy to convert. This is very different from modern woodwinds, where it would be extremely difficult to figure out a new fingering when dealing with various combinations of 20+ keys. Note, when playing a Chinese flute, which only has 6 or 7 finger holes, they do not transpose, but know how to convert between different instruments, because the fingering is quite simple. This is also why many orchestral trumpet players will ignore the designated instrument in the score, and easily do an instant transposition in their head to play on their preferred instrument (and why modern hornists can easily transpose older parts from various transpositions to double horn.)

[@michaelprozonic]

I was just going thru this with my grand daughter. She is looking to buy a tube in BBb but a professional suggested she consider a CC because it is more versatile. Then we discovered she would nee to learn al new fingerings. Being a saxophone player myself i thought this was crazy but then she explained that tuba music isn’t written as BBb tuba or CC tuba whereas sax music is written as Eb alto or Bb tenor. Since she plans to be an educator in US secondary schools which all use BBb sousaphones and tubas, she is planning to stay with the BBb since all sousaphones and marching tubas seem to be in BBb and she wants to concentrate on marching band performance

[@samuelmilton1233]

So its the music thats in concert pitch when its in bass clef, not the instrument?

[@MAXYISSICK]

Samuel Milton yes

[@JCA11]

so hes playing a Eb Tuba, is it written in treble clef?

[@GregorFinlay]

JC Ayala it depends on the occasion and where you learn/play it

[@samuelmilton1233]

I play E flat bass in many bands, and ive allways read bass clef by adding 3 sharps (dont know why, but it just works). I one band i sit next to anouther bass player who has only just started learing brass instruments, but before he played piano, and he constantly asks why we cant just read it as bass clef. If someone can please explain why, it would be much appriciated!

[@JCA11]

i play french horn and we read in bass clef as well in F and writen an octave lower

[@adammitchell3963]

Thank you for making a revised version of this video. I was one of the people that made corrections to the previous video. I agree with this video 100%.

[@glassesmatthew7413]

I love that when wearing a headset, your intro uses both headphones, just try it

[@MrCool1002]

Hi Trent, I've seen Bass Trombone sheets from Switzerland in Treble Clef Bb ;)

[@hugofritz8238]

That is right... In swiss notation, everything is in treble clef and transposing... best concept. Just like the saxophones.

[@ajn465]

Hi Craig… I enjoy your videos very much. Something that might simplify things for people… (i know you know this stuff) The natural pitch of a brass instrument is always it's open pitch with no valves depressed, or in the case of trombones, first position which is equivalent to open on a valved instrument. On a Bb Trumpet the open note is Bb. We call that note, however, C. That convention allows composers to write for differently keyed trumpets while keeping the fingerings the same relative to the printed music. What I didn't realize was that no such convention exists for tubas. The one thing that is the same is that the name of the instrument is derived from its open pitch. . Shit. I thought i could do that in far fewer words.

[@TrentHamilton]

Who is Craig?? Are you cheating on me with another KZbinr????

[@willypagiatis5901]

Very clear, man! I first studied trumpet. When I started learning sousaphone i had to relearn fingerings as a non transposing instrument. It was a nightmare. Same with the euphonium (but i read it in treble clef thinking it as a trumpet).

[@slimyelow]

Another way: A violin has has open springs G, D, A, E. Playing them sounds exactly like the pitches on a piano. However if violinists were taught that the open strings were C, G, D, A it would be a transposing instrument because the notation would be a 4th higher: A treble clef middle C would be played as an open G string on the violin. Bone, Trumpet, Euph etc. have open 'strings', meaning no valves down and slide at 0 and they SOUND LIKE a Bb on the piano. If trumpet players were taught to play a D (piston 1,3) when they see a see a C, it would become a non-transposing instrument. But they don't! HOWEVER:::: Trombone and Euphonium are taught exactly that! We play a Concert C with piston 1,3 and Bone position 6 That is messed up and that's the reason for all the confusion. History should have treated us as transposing instruments, by notating a step up. Just like trumpets but in bass clef. (I write my own Euphonium parts that way) This is why all saxes, flute, oboe clarinet get the massive advantage of exact same fingerings, but they SOUND at different pitches on the Piano. Therefore they get transposed notation. (up 2nd, 9th, 6th) and none for flute and oboe. Saxes are modern instruments and designed upon flute.and partial clarinet fingerings. Bones and Euphonium and I believe Tuba got screwed essentially. This should change. FIY F-Horns, Mellophones (F and Eb) and Alto horns got the lucky trumpet treatment. No valves down = written C.

[@alexfeliciano2151]

I have a trumpet that is spotted in lacquer and I was wondering if there is any way that I could get rid of that lacquer my self

[@AM-pl2pt]

Being a former trumpet player and now euphonium player I learned to play both treble and bass clef scored music. As my instructor taught me expanded capabilities expanded oppertunities. I transpose bass clef score to treble and back. My rule is simple bass clef to treble note goes up one octave and one step. Treble to bass same in reverse. Concert pitch in bass clef yes. Have often wondered how things got so confusing. Have played with instructors/ band directors that could take whatever instrument and play the score regardless of the clef. I am not that advanced but it is a goal.

[@jtecB]

The Bass Trom part had so many instruments in different keys (F Trombone, G Trombone, Bb/F Trombone etc.) which come under the "Bass Trombone" bracket. Rather than write and print music specifically for each type of Bass Trombone, it was easier for the player to learn different slide positions. E.g. for my G Trombone first position will be (starting from the bottom line of the Bass clef) G,D,G,B,D,G. 7th position is Db(below the line) Ab,Db,F,Ab,Db. Which obviously is different to a modern Bass Trom but the same music can be used.

[@jonathanbeyer6246]

Hey trent, I play the euphonious in my high school band and its only brass and percussion. There are only two of us playing the euphonium in the band but he reads in treble clef and I read in bass. So that would be an instance where there is euphonious music written for a brass band in base clef. I have been playing in a brass band since fifth grade and all of my music has always been in base clef by the way.

[@sascharambeaud]

Hi Trent, the explanation is much clearer this time, well done. I'd like to add that for the trombone the transposed notation is VERY rare. Things get somewhat complicated for tenorhorn/baritone players over here (traditional german band). Even though those are pretty similar instruments, the baritone is usually written in bass clef, the tenor in treble clef. Makes things a bit more difficult for people who need to switch register due to band necessities. ;)

[@oliverdiamond6594]

actually trombone transposed notation is quite common amongst british brass bands and is actually the default. so in countries with a lot of british brass bands it is normal for trombonists to learn Bb treble.

[@sascharambeaud]

@@oliverdiamond6594 Good to know, thanks.

[@MaxRamos8]

ahh this makes much more sense thanks ive only once read Euph. music in Treble and thats because the director forgot to print it in bass cleff

[@SpiderPigRS]

Horn fingerings aren't necessarily the same as the rest of the brass family

[@tommyellis7728]

ZEDecay they're the same as the second octave of a trumpet.

[@AOSMAKAKMS]

Trombones don’t even have fingerings

[@maxcroot1314]

I had this problem a few years ago when the schools started buying music with world parts. My students would bring there parts along and say it was notin tune with the band. I told them to get the part in C not Bb and they said that the trombone was pitched in Bb. Explained that unless the instruments were pitched in C they had to transpose the part. They said that they didn’t transpose the part. I told them that they were doing it at lightning speed and didn’t know they were doing it because that’s the way they were taught. When I studied at the Conservatorium of music in Sydney we did structured graded exams and this was explained to us. Up to the end of 4th grade we studied both bass and tenor clef then alto clef, concert treble clef, brass band treble clef. Cheers Max Croot

[@FilaYeah]

In Hungary we have it a bit simpler. The trombones and tubas(F, BBb are the most common) are always non transposing instruments. The euphonium and baritone on the other hand are mostly in concert pitch but the player decides if they learn the transposing or non transposing way of playing. I first started learning on euphonium by the concert pitch method but I changed to the bass trombone and since if I have to play the euphonium or the baritone I always think in the non transposing way. Even if the part I get is for transposing instrument I use the tenor clef plus 2 flats method since we have to learn it for the trombone.

[@ProactiveYellow]

here in America all (primarily) bass brass instruments read in concert as far as I'm aware, except baritone/euphonium in T.C. sometimes a tenor trombone will move to treble clef (very rare, more commonly tenor clef) but it still acts as part of a grand staff as it should. treble instruments are the same way, but in reverse. as a Horn player I have to read both clefs and they all read transposed. the only quirk for Horn is that it became tradition to write bass clef an octave down (middle C becomes low in staff C) which means a lot of the notes they wanted are many ledgers below staff even in bass clef. this has since been redone in proper fashion, but when getting a new piece with bass clef I always have to look up the age of the piece to see whether it's the old system (Wagner's time and older) or new (after about 1850...ish)

[@CozyStag]

From this little segment, I can see you most definitely have things to talk about. You could make a segment to rant or discuss, like "Trent Rants" or "Trent Discussion" something to talk about these ideas that you feel could be different in some way or another. Just an idea, but I hope you consider a bit. :)

[@dkelzenb]

I explain this in a different way. Trombone, baritone, and euphonium are PITCHED in B-flat. So in 1st position/open, they play the Bb harmonic series (Bb-F-Bb-D-F-[Ab]-Bb). The treble clef parts are written in Bb, so the player can use the same fingering as the trumpet, READING in the key of C but the actual pitches are a whole step lower, in Bb. Bass clef parts are written in concert pitch. Since built on the Bb harmonic series, the instrument is sounding a whole step lower than concert pitch if fingered like the trumpet. So the player of a Bb instrument, reading a concert pitch ("C") bass clef part, must either transpose UP a whole step to compensate, or else learn an alternate set of fingering for the notes, essentially fingering a whole step above the standard trumpet fingerings for each note.

[@sameester]

Very informative. Thankyou

[@eyalbressler]

many many tnx! yet yet i watched your video twice and still cant understand why, when and how to correcf it if (?) correction is required. is this true similarely in all scales and in all tones? pls explain (again...)

[@gigglepantsiii826]

I play bass clarinet and it would be easier for me to read bass clef then treble. The sheet music is a meter away from me, I have to look at it around my instrument and it's all several lines below the E line (bottom) so I end up writing in what the notes are anyways

[@limsoduh5277]

Why are alto trombones in alto clef and tenor trombones in treble/tenor/bass clef?

[@9999saxman]

I've been saying this for years: the open fingering or first position harmonic series is Bb, which means the instrument is built in the key if Bb. The players are just taught to transpose when they first start to play and told that their instruments are in the key of C. It's a well-intentioned lie with little consequence in most situations here in America, but it's still a lie. The only students that ever catch on are the ones that started on trumpet because they're using the same fingerings to play the same notes and scales but suddenly everything has a different name.

[@alexrushing9010]

So if a Trombone were to play in treble clef it would play the same notes as a Bb Trumpet?

[@allsonsoon9115]

What about the tromebone in the tenor clef? Will it be under transposing or non-transposing?

[@james_subosits]

Jonnas jay Still non-transposing.

[@allsonsoon9115]

P i g g l e s Alto?

[@jrlepage2a03]

Alto trombone in alto clef is non-transposing also. I don't think I've ever seen a tenor trombone part in alto clef, but if that were to happen (it's not impossible), it still would be non-transposing.

[@tenorclef-8itch]

Yeah Alto and Tenor clef act the same way as treble clef does to bass clef (as an extension) but just in different spots - middle c is just moved around a little. In tenor clef it's where F would be in bass clef and in Alto clef it's where D would be in bass clef

[@rogermwilcox]

They use the *alto* clef for some trombones? I thought the only instrument that still used the alto clef was the viola.

[@patrickatkinson9370]

so treble clef is different in jazz bands than in brass bands? Is it kind of that there are two different "ideas" or "types" of treble clef and one is more used today whereas the other was more commonly used in old times? I kind of wish they'd make them two different clefs

[@Drag0ncl0ud]

I think the issue is that this concept of concert pitch and transposing is not a native characteristic of the instrument but it is all about how people read music. I am not super well versed in the history of the non brass instruments, but I know that trumpets and horns originally had no valves and could not play 100% chromatically. In old music, the trumpet parts would then be transposed for whatever key of trumpet was being used, so it was easier to read while switching instruments for different music. Bb trumpets transposed a whole step up, F trumpets transposed a perfect 4th down, etc. This carried over to today because of tradition. Trombones could play chromatically all along, so they never ended up transposing. Tubas were invented much later and so just followed along with reading concert pitch. On the whole "guitar in E" issue, this could also be true depending on how you look at it. The guitar has 6 fundamental frequencies: E, A, D, G, B, and E, one for each string. However, if you use a drop tuning on the guitar and you read tabs, don't you do the same thing as a transposing instrument? The low string is now tuned in D but on the tabs you still see 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. the same, yet the note is a whole step lower than it is written on that string. You don't look at a tab for a normally tuned guitar and mentally subtract 2 from the lowest string (I guess you could, but if you have the skill to do that, you might as well be playing by ear or reading sheet music). A tab is essentially 6 staves of differently transposed strings. You could read 0 on the top E string or a 5 on the B string and it would be the same note. Similarly, you can read an E on a trombone and an F# on a trumpet and they would be the same note, and played with the same principles of physics. In the end, it's all about practicality and convention and nothing to do with the instrument itself. In fact, if you are playing in a jazz group of any skill, someone will call out F and everyone will play the correct key in concert pitch, even trumpets and saxophones which usually transpose.

[@chrisjamesr77]

Drag0ncl0ud Also, usually when guitar players tune down every string equally, they'll still refer to an E chord fingering as E, even though it's actually E flat or D or something. And guitar sheet music is written an octave higher than it sounds.

[@iphonedoctor6427]

Nice essay👏👏👏👏👏

[@9999saxman]

To be clear- in a jazz group (or ANY group for that matter), trumpets and saxophones still have to transpose. They just know to play in the key of G or D (depending on the instrument) when someone calls out F. They just do it. There's no discussion about why they do, it just happens. So it's definitely understandable why it might seem like they don't transpose, but they really do.

[@tomstevenson5084]

So I play Eb Tuba and I want to try and learn Bass Clef to play in Orchestras and Jazz Bands. I have traditionally played in Brass Bands so I only read treble clef there. I haven’t been playing bass clef very long and I need help to play bass clef without writing the fingerings on my sheet music

[@TrentHamilton]

Just read it as treble clef but add three sharps.

[@tealterminater8214]

In Concert Band Music, treble clef parts are frequently provided for Baritone/Euphonium players for the same reason they are in British Brass Bands: to make switching instruments easier. It’s relatively common for trumpet players (especially in high school) to be put on Euphonium when there aren’t enough players. However, bass clef is still the standard clef for these instruments because most Baritone/Euphonium players start out playing low brass. I have not seen Trombone or Tuba written in treble clef in a Concert Band or Orchestral setting. (Trumpet players don’t switch to Trombone or Tuba nearly as frequently)

[@cadetrob1393]

The way it was explained to me, trombones and euphoniums are Bb instruments (the fundamental ,natural, middle tone on those instruments plays a concert Bb) but that trombones and euphs in bass clef are reading (and playing) in concert pitch. I personally learned to read for euphonium in treble clef. My written "C", which is my fundamental pitch, plays a concert Bb.

[@monsteraalocasia]

I play euphonium and have always played in treble clef. According to the internet, this is unusual. My open is a C, 4th/1+3rd is a D etc. and I play in Bb. It might be because I originally learnt with a person playing trumpet. I complete get what you are getting at. Someone I know plays baritone and it exactly the same. Please could you explain this? This video is great but I just don't understand that tiny little detail. Thank you 😊

[@tekcomputers]

Your confusion is that you've learned notes rather than pitch by learning transposing rather than non-transposing parts. Euphonium parts are normally written in treble clef from my experience. Just as with trombones and baritones when notated in treble clef the instruments are played transposing. middle C on paper is played open. The C notation on paper is the fundamental of the instrument being played for that part. However what you are playing is not a C in actual concert pitch, it's concert pitch Bb. You see the C, play the appropriate fingering and embouchure and produce an actual Bb in pitch. But it's not something you worry about pitch wise because the arranger/composer has transposed the parts before hand so that you produce the pitch he wants by playing the notes he has given you using the fingering you already know. The baritone reading parts in treble clef are the same. (as are trombone parts in treble). When reading treble notation the instruments are transposing. You see a C, you play the first fundamental... but you produce a Bb in pitch, as that is the fundamental of the instrument. Parts for these instruments written in bass clef are non-transposing. That is the note played is also thepitch you are expected to produce. So when you read a Bb, you play a Bb in pitch. On a trombone or baritone or even a euphonim if reading bass clef this would be open. As the fundemental pitch of the instrument is Bb. Trent hit the nail on the head in his earlier video when he described this as note/pitch. When you see that C on paper with treble clef, you are expected to produce the fundamental pitch of your instrument the part was written for. But when you are playing bass clef and see that note C , you are expected to produce the pitch of C (irrespective of the fundamental of the instrument)..... as the note written and pitch you are expected to produce are the same.

[@hrenes]

I just found this out in my Trombone/Baritone learning book (F clef, starting with Trombone) that the Baritone would play the same notes as the trombone, by using other fingerings, so it will play in C. Interesting...

[@bettyvisocan8815]

Good job. Lots of confusion on this subject even among low brass players. You have made it clear. Here in the US, with little contact with British Brass Bands, the Salvation Army Bands are the main place to encounter transposing treble clef parts for tenor trombone. Baritone and Euphie parts sometimes come in both bass clef non-transposing and treble clef transposing parts...but in the lower school grades, the TC part is quickly eaten by someone's dog. School directors tend to bully... I mean encourage young baritone players into quickly learning BC, since most start out on trumpet.

[@brucereynolds7009]

Took a while for the Salvation Army bands to get into the mix; I would play in them with my Eb tuba, reading the treble clef, and transposing on the fly.

[@hipepleful]

Why is the tenor trombone transposed? It has a (to my plebian woodwind-and-piano-based-brain) vastly different fingering system. Unless the combinations are the same (ie. Third position would always correspond to a certain valve combination)?

[@TrentHamilton]

The tenor trombone slide positions do correspond to valve combinations.

[@hipepleful]

@@TrentHamilton very interesting

[@JamesLewisSax]

i am learning baritone from bari sax, so its a good thing that i am also learning bass clef?

[@breadmoneymusic]

I've seen horn music go from bass clef to treble clef but the key signature stayed the same for both of them. I know this isn't a key change simply because the first horn player stayed in treble the entire time and the key never changed in his music. Is this something unique to the horn or are there other instruments that share this feature? I saw this while performing in a musical that incorporated classical and baroque music.

[@adamhousego9977]

Hey Trent -GREAT video! I learned Tenor trombone at school and played in bass clef. I'm now, 18 years later, getting back to playing and have joined a brass band where, I have to play in treble clef transposed music. I'm having a hard time converting because the positions and notes are different. Any advice?

[@jessstuart7495]

I consider there to only be 12 pitches (chromatic scale). If you are shifted an octave(s) up or down from "concert pitch" you are still in "concert pitch".

[@davidh8491]

As always, wonderfully clear. Thanks

[@ericahiable2650]

Hello! Does it mean l can play any type of tuba with a brass band with other E flat instruments? Thank you.

[@TheAvgCommentator]

As a baritone saxophone player I was taught to read bass clef, treble in E flat, and treble in B flat.

[@arielhernansuaznabar9527]

Hi Trent. It is my guess but I think the reasons why Bass Trombones are written in bass clef in a brass band are: 1) the obvious low register 2) the articulation that changes when presing one or both valves or even if it is in other keys (like your grandfather G bass trombone) 3) I think it would suit for a trombonist that comes from classical music or jazz bands like you say and they don't need to re-transpose to concert pitch because they do take the treble clef as an extention of the bass clef. 4) perhaps this is weirdest guess but it is somewhat connected to the last point: a tubist that comes from classical music and doesn't take the trebble clef as a transposing instrument may take the bass trombone part and play it. It is logical when I see that bass trombone parts are almost the same with the only difference being the clefs in brass band but I haven't see that much scores to affirm that tubas and bass trombones play (let's say) the same "sounds". I hope that any of this points are true, but, as I said, they are my guesses. I hope you understand me. English is not my mother tongue. Keep up the good work!!!

[@adamdarby5849]

Bass trombone parts in a brass band have been in bass clef for over 150 years, before jazz was even a thing. It simply comes down to ease of reading, it's easier to read 4-5 lines below the bass clef than it is to read 7-8 lines below a treble clef.

[@Shadow1211000]

Are there any scenarios where Horns in F are written in concert pitch , given that besides the F side being primary, both horns and troms are pitched the same? Also, is the F side of a Bb /F trom technically in the key of F, even if in practice music is just written in concert pitch?

[@limsoduh5277]

I know f horns can sometimes go in bass clef, but why is it read differently than when low brass instruments read it

[@ThomasDawkins88]

In old-style notation, horn in F transposes down a fifth in treble clef but up a fourth in bass clef. In the 20th century and later, some composers write horn in bass clef with the same downward transposition of a fifth. Musical notation developed in different places in a variety of different ways, and reconciling that can be extremely difficult!

[@russellbride]

My experience is the same. I learned trombone in the school brass band in Australia reading treble clef. When I moved on to play third it was all in bass clef. And now in classical orchester everything is in bass clef. Interesting though, the notes in tenor clef for the first and second trombones are in the same place they would be if they were in transposing treble clef.

[@VisserZer0]

A few months ago I was given a bass clef trombone part...transposed to Bb. Confused the shit out of me for several rehearsals. Couldn't figure out why my part sounded so bad lol. Still baffled by that.

[@bln35]

could you do a video showing your full collection sometime, i'm sure you have some interesting stuff

[@sweetpresten]

When Tenor Trombone and Bassoon play in Tenor Clef, they are technically playing in the key of F, just like a Horn in F. That's why you'll sometimes see Tenor Clef called the F Clef.

[@kraka2oanIner]

I have ZERO problem with your explanation ... I thought you were going to get into the subtleties of octave stretching or something... glad I didn't see your last video, I guess.

[@minet11]

THAT INTRO IS LEGENDARY MATE

[@MikuJess]

So a short version (as it pertains to me) would be that as a tuba player, if the music I'm reading is non-transposing then I am in concert pitch, regardless of what key the tuba is in? Is that right?

[@marchingmusicvideos2081]

MikuJess He didn't explain it in this video, but actually no. You are in concert pitch if you're in C. If you're in anything other than C (you're probably in Bb) then you're a transposing, non-concert pitch instrument.

[@ccrider5398]

Would you clarify the French Horn when it goes into Bass Clef? Is it still transposed?

[@Mr797204]

In Europe trombone parts are sometimes in bass cleff AND in Bb or .... transposed

[@derpyfish281]

Can you do acideo on the bass trombone in Bb, can't seem to find one

[@turnitback]

As you know, I am a keen follower of your work, Trent. I think that your first video on this topic was clear and correct. It follows that, with sincere respect, I don’t entirely agree with this revision. The Bb instruments are always in Bb, and the Eb ones in Eb. The parts for them are sometimes written in concert pitch, e.g. for the Bb Euphonium in a wind/concert band and sometimes not, e.g. in a British traditional brass band. As you rightly say, in the Brtish brass band, the parts are written so that the fingering is the same for both Bb and Eb instruments. Therefore, I suggest, it is the PARTS for these instruments that are sometimes in concert pitch, and sometimes not. The instruments themselves remain in Bb or Eb. When a part is written in concert pitch, the sound coming from the instrument is at the pitch written. On the other hand, when a part is written for a British traditional brass band, the sound coming from the instrument different from the pitch written - so that the fingering is transferrable from instrument to instrument. Under that system, if, for example, you read a scale of C Major, what will come out of the instrument on a Bb instrument will be a scale of Bb. The parts in the brass band set are written so that the sounds produced are all pitched to produce the required, integrated band sound. It might be helpful to mention that the KEY in which a part is written is not what is meant here by the PITCH. In a brass band, if a part sounds in, say, Bb major, percussion, which is pitched in concert pitch, will be written in Bb major. The parts for the same piece for instruments that are themselves pitch in Bb will be written in C, i.e. in a key that is two semitones higher, so that the instrument sounds in the same key as that being played on the concert-pitch instruments. The fingering on an Eb instrument that sounds a concert-pitch scale of Eb is the same as the fingering on a Bb instrument that sounds a concert-pitch Bb scale. So that players can move instruments without learning new fingering, the parts are based on that common fingering. That means writing the parts for Eb and Bb instruments in different keys to produce sound in the key in which the piece sounds.

[@tierneyp6729]

What about the baritone or the euphonium

[@ItsEphora]

Here in Belgium the euphonium is still transposing in bass clef. Just learned that a few days ago cause I'm about to switch from the trumpet.

[@pukalo]

Recorders are similar except that they are all in concert pitch. That makes is confusing to switch from tenor to alto or sopranino to soprano, etc... since there is different fingerings for the same note but on different instruments.

[@aycc-nbh7289]

Don’t some people notate by fingering rather than by pitch, i.e. as transposing instruments?

[@villew1]

Only once have I seen something written in treble clef for a bass trombone. It was in a military band. I think it was an old swedish march named "poseidon". Luckily there was a part for bass trombone in bass clef also since the treble part was utterly useless when the bass trombone part doubled the tuba part...

[@thomasborgsmidt9801]

The strings have the same problem; but it is only the viola that uses the alto-clef. Otherwise the violin uses the treble clef, the viola uses the alto clef and the cello the bass clef. This arrangement suits the string quartet just fine. The double bass is not a string instrument in the violin sense. The double bass is a gambe, not a violin - only the double bass has dropped the frets; but you can see it at juncture of board and body of the instrument, plus a double bass back is flat. There has been made an awfull lot of kindling to produce really deep stringed instruments with pedal and other gadgets to make the musician a marionette. Generally speaking: All musical instruments have their their uses and abuses - and some inventions does not give expression commensurate with the difficulty of playing them. The Mormon Tabernacle organ is so complicated that it has staff with the only job: To maintain that instrument. It is the instrument that not only has a driver, but also a mechanic. The woodwind generally has the opposite problem of the brass: Whereas brass generally lengthens the tube, the woodwind shortens it. For clarinettes it means they can play the deep register only piano and the high register only in forte - the middle register is double, but the fingering changes, as it drops half when you change register - plus the tone quality changes significantly. The high register in a clarinette plays excellently without the bell. The piano and other pretuned instruments have their own problems as illustrated by Victor Borge (his personal piano was a Bösendorff'er with 108 keys instead of the standard 88. Mozart is not a problem, because his piano only had 50 keys. But then he had to make all sorts of work arounds. kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5mzZ35qac-Cqs0 The piano fights the changes in keys - since Bach - by making every tone slightly out of tune. That suits Bach that was polyphonic in style and nature. When you are simultaneously playing two tunes things tend to get messy. Mozart understood polyphony and has written some; but it never came naturally to him.

[@docdaneeka3424]

So in an orchestra, playing trombone, the music you read would be in bass clef and written at 'sounding' pitch, but in a brass band you would be given music in treble clef and would be transposed (according to the instrument)?

[@djadesi]

Doc Daneeka yes, if in orchestra, a tenor trombone had to read a "c" on the page, a concert c would sound. In brass bands or other setting of the like had a "c" on the page, a concert b flat would sound.

[@J4ckpot23]

Hey Trent, would marching baritones be considered trumpets?

[@paulroutledge4923]

I've seen transposed Bb bass clef euphonium and trombone parts before. The first time that happened, I was sightreading something in my Community Band. I found out the hard way as I was playing a transposed part in bass clef of all thing and I was playing a major 2nd off!?!?? I don't see the logic of behind notating it like that but to each of their own.

[@tawhneebaby]

Paul Routledge someone later mentioned this issue having to do with the fact that horns and bugles (first rendition of trumpets) would be made to play a certain harmonic series since they didnt have valves. The music would be written accordingly. Euphoniums, Tubas, etc. were created after brass instruments were made with valves, so while in bass clef they are in concert pitch, but when reading older music things get wonky...or at least thats how i understand it.

[@axres]

Transposing bass clef isn't unheard of as an option in continental Europe. Bands I've played in have imported some pieces from the Netherlands where such parts existed, and it took the euphonium players a little while to figure out why their two bass clef parts had different key signatures. You see something similar in some 19th century orchestral bass clarinet parts, but nowadays they don't do that to bass clarinetists.

[@ho-ohisflying5857]

Do you have a sax that you do not use and can I have one

[@kevinhateswriting]

I'll never forget one day in HS before band class, where a trombone and tuba player nearly came to blows over whether or not the tubist is actually transposing, or merely learning different fingerings, when he plays tuba parts in orchestra.

[@franasRx7fb]

How do I read TC Baritone coming from BC Baritone?

[@The061203]

Francisco Asuncion, it's like playing trumpet. Your concert Bb is considered a C. Your Bb scale has no accidentals in treble clef, so it would sometimes be called a C scale. However, this is coming from an American 8th Grade Euphonium BC player with three years of experience trying to learn Trumpet, Alto Sax, and Tenor Trombone.

[@andymayeuxproductions]

I realized why the Tenor Cor is called that. "Cor" means horn in french or latin or one of those, and tenor is the pitch or something of what it is in. so it is a horn that plays in the tenor range

[@oliverdiamond6594]

yeah same for Cor anglais anglais means english so Cor anglais means english horn.

[@Nate.mp4]

Can you move to America and be my music teacher?

[@afloatingpineapple6170]

Or Britain and be mine?

[@lorddisappointment1792]

or canada to be mine?

[@iphonedoctor6427]

Or Europe and be mine?

[@chrispanca1590]

Or Australia and be mine? Wait...

[@wwemario12345]

Chrispy Wallop wait... he lives in New Zealand 😂

[@billygarvey633]

There's a trombone part in my musical that has a cue in treble clef, and doesn't change back to bass clef until the next measure, and there are pickups still written in treble clef. But checking with the other parts, you don't transpose. Do you believe this to be a mistake or a compromise that most trombonist wouldn't know to transpose it anyway

[@djadesi]

Billy Garvey sometimes music for the low brass that is in treble clef (excluding euphonium) in orchestra are written in concert pitch just for convenience, normally, one would transpose the treble clef cue, but sometimes you have to use your ear, or even study or check other parts to know for sure.

[@billygarvey633]

Tuba Jesus As we did, it was unison with the first trumpet part. There really should be more well known standards for this!

[@djadesi]

Billy Garvey if it was in unison with the trumpet part and the same notes were written, trombone players might just have to read it transposed or read it in tenor clef with the necessary added accidentals.

[@paulc778]

Its really not that complicated, but its definitely worth making the distinction between "is the instrument in (for example) Bb" or "is the player playing it 'in Bb'". After all, an instrument is just a physical thing which doesn't transform or adapt to "be" different things (let's put aside double French Horn for now, which is an exception!!!) Every brass instrument, indeed every wind instrument, has a "natural" pitch which is the pitch of its open harmonic series. So, its quite right to talk about the Trombone in Bb, or a Tuba in Eb. And if someone learns brass instruments including those, by reading treble clef, they are setting off on a musical career which initially starts with their WRITTEN notes sounding different pitch from their SOUNDED notes - unless of course they started on a C instrument (rarity). So its the music itself, and the musician interpreting it, that is actually doing the transposing, not the instrument - the instrument is just a tube of metal, it doesn't have any interpretation of its own. If a trombone/tuba/euph/etc player starts off by reading bass clef, then they're not learning different "fingerings" they're using the same fingerings but associating a different pitch to them - the CONCERT pitch. They're effectively doing an interpretation which renders the fact that the open sounded harmonic notes are not in C, but in the pitch of their instrument (Bb, Eb) by using same fingering--> different pitches (or....the corrolary, the same pitches require different fingerings) than their treble clef reading friend above. At the end of the day, its not massively complicated but it is a bit mathematical and you need to know your intervals and circle of fifths well, to quickly interpret what's read, assumed, played, sounded etc.

[@colinball9032]

tenor trombone is mostly written in bass clef I think apart from brass band, in uk anyway

[@TheHelvetican]

The instruments are not in concert pitch but the music for them is written for them is so add a trumpet player playing valve trombone I need to learn bass clef and transpose it at the same time. very dificult, so I just rewrite the trombone music into the treble clef and play it like a trumpet.

[@logananglin2074]

Is there a particular reason why bass trombone is in bass clef in brass bands, or is that just a strange feature? Also, I have seen bass clef music that transposes (particularly with french horn but with tuba parts and baritone/ euphonium parts as well).

[@adamdarby5849]

The reason the bass trombone is in bass clef for a brass band is simply for ease of reading. Because of how low bass trombones play in brass bands (often doubling or extending from the tubas) it's simpler to read to about 4-5 lines below the staff on bass clef then to read 7-8 lines below the staff on treble clef, also helps decrease the space taken up on the score and the instrument part

[@logananglin2074]

Adam Darby That makes sense. Thanks!

[@logananglin2074]

Yeah, now that I think about it, most bass trombone music I've played consists of a range of about F above middle C to Eb or lower below the staff. Regardless of if the music is written in treble clef like tenor trombones or like Bb tubas (an octave down), there would be a lot of ledger lines.

[@adamdarby5849]

Tristan, Bass and Tenor troms are pitched the same, just the Bass trombone's mouthpiece, bore size and overall timbre of the instrument gives it a clearer sound in the lower register. It's not lower than an average tenor trom, just sounds nice. That's like saying a Euphonium is lower than a baritone...

[@TheSacqueboute]

Because the bass trombone used to be in G.

[@gena1384]

I feel like your original video actually made more sense to me

[@michawolski2584]

What is the title of the outro piece?

[@jbtrains]

Fact: everybody else is wrong who plays treble in the brass band and they only FORCE low brass to confine. Opinion: in every setting where low brass is present every piece should be bass clef because we’re the best and everybody should confine to us because our instruments are bigger meaning we have a much harder time hauling around our horns compared to others

[@TheHelvetican]

The instruments themselves are B flat just like a trumpet, but the music for them is written in concert pitch. And two years later I'm still having problems with it.

[@alphabeets]

Those instruments are in Bb. The natural pitch without manipulating the slide or valves is concert Bb just like a Bb trumpet.

[@paddylloyd8671]

Maybe I'm just stupid but I still don't get it. I play the French horn, when I switch to bass clef the fingerings are the same, just an octave lower. is that not how it works for all instruments?

[@miamc4602]

Mystic Giraffe Most instruments don't work that way. The horn doesn't either, except for in certain older works. Except for low brass, the bass clef is an octave and a 5th lower, I believe.

[@paddylloyd8671]

Name Surname the way I see it, if I play a middle C in the treble clef and a middle C in the bass clef, it's the same note, just written differently. the horn doesn't change key between clefs and the fingerings stay the same.

[@Drag0ncl0ud]

Yes. If you are playing the same instrument in the same piece of music, the transposition doesn't change when you change clefs. What he is talking about is that sometimes, different types of ensembles which developed from different histories may have different conventions for transposition. Like if a trombone part was in bass clef then went to treble clef, they wouldn't suddenly start transposing. It's that music for some ensembles have a convention of writing trombone parts in treble clef and transposing it.

[@paddylloyd8671]

Drag0ncl0ud so in some ensembles the bass part and the treble part (for the same instrument) are in different keys?

[@Drag0ncl0ud]

Mystic Giraffe I'm not sure what you are asking. Everyone in an ensemble should be in the same key otherwise it will sound terrible (or avante gard). Some instruments, like the french horn and trumpet, have the notes transposed because of various reasons in the past but the notes that come out are all, ultimately in the same key as each other. So if you are switching clefs, you should read and play it just as you were before.

[@blankstraw6283]

my brother is under the impression that bass clef is in the key of b flat and treble clef is in the key of c. He thinks that a c played in treble clef will sound different if its written in bass clef. Is this true?

[@TrentHamilton]

Bass clef is in C (Concert pitch). But the second sentence is correct. A treble clef C (written in transposing pitch) will sound different to a bass clef C for most brass instruments.

[@blankstraw6283]

@@TrentHamilton ah ok thanks!

[@whothoughtthiswasagoodidea]

When do we get "Trombones and Tubas are NOT in Concert Pitch! (Haas edition)"?

[@drzoidberg71]

Epic beard is getting epic bro! love it!

[@IkSaRbara]

THANK U SO MUCH for this video when I watched the first one and my friend who's a horn player (I'm a euph player in the states) I immediately started thinking about everything you were saying in this video. I tried to argue with him about it but he wouldn't listen so now I can rub it in his face lol.