True Biblical Greek Pronunciation - Does It Exist?

In this video, I bring latest discoveries in discussion of Biblical Greek pronunciation. I apply never used before argument to show what pronunciation Koine Greek had in the first century AD.
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[@GreekForAll]

LET ME KNOW: What is Your preferred Koine Greek pronunciation and the reasons why?

[@ak1986]

I made a responds to this video with another video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2G7loGcip56ipI

[@GreekForAll]

@@ak1986 Hey Aleksey, thanks for a response. You got some good points in your video, and you even got my main point that there are many accents and dialects in Koine Greek. And this is the main point that even within Greece there were multiple dialects as you yourself know. However, your claim that the closest pronunciation to Koine is modern Greek is incorrect. You yourself know that Medieval English is totally different from modern, same as Old Russian (Старославянский) is totally different from modern Russian. These are examples from 500 years ago. Koine is 2000 years ago: just trust me, it sounded nothing close to modern Greek. I think Lucian reconstruction is pretty good (which I didn't mention). Besides, I don't think you can say that Americans speak "wrong" English. We just can't say that Australian English has a wrong accent. Even within Great Britain there are a number of accents. Same in Russia or America (southern accent for example). I think my main point was that we will NEVER KNOW for sure how Koine was pronounced so we should beHUMBLE and TOLERANT. So this whole "noise" about DA BEST Koine pronunciation is really just a noise. PS: finally, I don't think that to be a man a Russian boy needed to win a fight. Although the 90s dictated such culture, manhood comes from within, it is the character traits like integrity, honesty, work ethics, respect and etc.

[@matthewheald8964]

Omgosh you know about Lucian? That’s my favorite!!! I do tend to opt for the more conservative side of it, but overall those guys do amazing work.

[@GreekForAll]

@@matthewheald8964 yes, Lucian is great and I tend to implement some aspects of it into my pronunciation.

[@user-pj7sq7ce1f]

@@GreekForAll greek orthodox christian use in church only koine greek in all our says prays hymns readings. The crap erasmians never said when we supposed change the way we say our language

[@TheBiblinguist]

this is the best explanation I've heard thus far.

[@GreekForAll]

Happy to serve. Blessings!

[@rachelpage859]

I have just started learning Koine Greek, you suggest Erasmian, so I am taking your advice. Thoroughly enjoying your videos. Thank you so much.

[@GreekForAll]

Much appreciated. Happy to serve.

[@GuillaumeStein-sf7fj]

This was an amazing explanation! Definitely gave me some clarity and calm on this topic. Keep it up!

[@allyncraig7419]

Spot on. I came to a similar conclusion years ago and settled on my own personal pronunciation which is mostly Erasmian, with adjustments to make it flow more easily on the tongue (my tongue, specifically) and sound like a natural language. I don’t care so much if my pronunciation right, so much as if I am understood. I think that is the key, which you correctly point out: the idea is to be understood.

[@GreekForAll]

Glad to hear that there are other enthusiasts who come to the same conclusion!

[@g.v.6450]

Luke Ranieri has done a lot of work on reconstructed Koine Greek pronunciations(!) of the first century. He does recordings of Koine in the main 5 or 6 accents. They are based on the instructions of Lucian of Samosata (yeah, the science fiction writer of “True Stories”), who wrote instructions for foreigners learning Koine in the 1st Century. Look up his KZbin videos. They are very informative!

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks. I’ve heard about Lucian pronunciation. I personally apply it for some sounds in personal use but don’t want to confuse the viewers so I stick with Erasmian. Thanks for the info. Many will appreciate it.

[@parrhasius]

Very interesting, I'm so fortunate for being able to to speaking both Greek and English,the two Lingua Francas described.

[@GreekForAll]

Yes, it’s fantastic.

[@mrkong9329]

Great argument! Thanks for this (and the other) videos. I speak a reconstructed Koine, and for various reasons I think it more suited to how we teach. But I’ve never heard this argument from geography. It’s simple, but very strong. And humbling 😊 God bless all your teaching Stan!

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks! Blessings!

[@Ashmazingthe1st]

Wow, what a great point! I had never thought about that before.

[@KathyPianoHarp]

Good point! I think you are spot on! Thank you for settling the issue for me.

[@GreekForAll]

Happy to serve!

[@pjhotosean]

Thanks Stan, another excellent video.

[@GreekForAll]

Appreciated!

[@helgeevensen856]

wow... that was an excellent recommendation... this makes good sense... 👍

[@GreekForAll]

Glad it was helpful!

[@davidgustafson-td6ru]

I was taught Erasmian in Bible College and it's interesting listening to all the different views on pronunciation,. I am always curious so I have listened to a few opinions and yours is by far the one that makes the most sense. I just found your videos recently and they are great. You are interesting and you take the time to explain the material. Your method of teaching is very clear. I'm not a beginner but never mastered the language either but there has been a few times when a light has come on and I am amazed how you simplified what I was making so difficult. Thank you. Also, I see you went to an ETS meeting, that's definitely on my bucket list

[@GreekForAll]

You should definitely come to ETS. This year it’s in Texas. It’s a big event which can energize and inspire.

[@dlbard1]

A very sound and logical argument..... I like it. I'm leaning reconstructed.. That's what others I encountered were using

[@GreekForAll]

Keep up the good work!

[@dr.princemauriceparker5928]

Excellent points!

[@GreekForAll]

Appreciated!

[@BelievingThinkers]

Spot on!!!!! thank you for doing this Prof!

[@GreekForAll]

Appreciated!

[@Marshall.2319]

I enjoy the sound of the reconstructed :)

[@johnnashquintans5722]

Thank you for this. I haven't thought of Andrew and Simon's names being from different backgrounds, nor given much thought on Simon's language in the courtyard

[@GreekForAll]

I am glad it was helpful.

[@g.v.6450]

It’s very simple: Invent a Time Machine, go back in time to the first century and make recordings of conversations at the main centers of the ancient world. Then bring the recordings back to the present and publish them. Problem solved!

[@imadboles3431]

Very useful.

[@GreekForAll]

Glad it was helpful!

[@filolinguista5576]

Great video! Thank you for sharing your insights. I teach Greek in a seminary, primarily New Testament Greek, but I've expanded my focus to include Biblical Greek from various Christian traditions, including songs, prayers, and hymns from Oriental churches like Orthodox and Catholic. My courses are not just grammar-focused; they're interactive, incorporating songs, psalms, hymns, and poems to make the language learning experience more dynamic and didactic. I use the modern Greek pronunciation because it aligns with how Greek is pronounced in Oriental Christian liturgy. My aim is not to be a "purist" but to leverage historical resources as pedagogical tools to teach Greek within the Christian tradition.

[@kentst8956]

Hi Stan Thank you so much for this video it makes so much sense! I love your point that Greek was mostly spoken with some sort of an "accent". Having lived in three separate cultures one of them being Asia as well I totally understand what you're talking about. Also, as a teacher of English your point makes perfect sense. Personally I think it would make the most sense to choose the modern pronunciation since it would be a better bridge to the modern language if one wanted to try to speak with native speakers today. However I realize that it's amazing how many speakers can adjust their hearing to other accents of their language. I also speak Spanish. It has many variations that one learns to adjust to if they need to. I don't know much about you or where you live, but I wish you were my friend, because I sense that you are a very nice guy that I would enjoy getting to know! Blessings!

[@GreekForAll]

Thank you for your comment. I also appreciate you sharing your views and experiences. Sometimes all it needs is too visit several cultures and see how languages work in practice. If you would like connecting, you can find my email and social media on my website: www.greekforall.com I am in the US currently. Let’s stay in touch.

[@lg6700]

Erasmian. I resonate with your excellent discussion of the geographically distributed variations in first-century Koine pronunciation and the inevitable lack of any canonical pronunciation. Your analogy with English is apropos. The current variations in English are quite evident in spite of the universality of English-speaking commercial communications (television, movies, news) and social media (videos, podcasts, etc.) which should tend to homogenize the pronunciation. The first century clearly relied on word-of-mouth going to word-of-mouth like the "gossip" game. I relate one instance: I was in Mumbai, India (from the US) for the first time a few years ago, that is, before the tsunami of social media availability and my (native) Indian traveling companion met a former friend while we were there and we, three, had a quick lunch together. They spent the first ten minutes exchanging pleasantries in Hindi (I surmised) and discussing their former times together at the University in India. While I said nothing, I thought it a little rude to speak Hindi between themselves when they would know I did not understand a word. It was easily 10 minutes into their conversation before I realized they were not speaking Hindi, at all, but were speaking English to each other, which I found totally unrecognizable. I later asked my companion about it and he explained it was because they taught one another English and none of them were actually native speakers so any variant pronunciations proliferated. I can imagine how this extrapolates to the first century. I intend nothing pejorative, just an actual event that brings home the point. Being a native Texan I have had many northern business associates explain to me that we do not even know English - so there you are.

[@GreekForAll]

Excellent story. Thanks for sharing! Yeah, I should've mentioned the number of different accents we have in the States. When I go south, I really need to focus on what some people say.

[@peterwycka7222]

now that iv spent years using erasmian i regret it it seems continually awkward and lacks major fluidy. i heard someone usuing I think called lucian pronunciation and fell in love. If you first learning use whatever pronounciation your grammar teaches but if you can choose dont choose erasmian.

[@GreekForAll]

Yeah, Lucian one makes sense. I somewhat lean towards it personally. It makes a lot of sense especially when it comes to eu and au. The rest is not a big difference for me.

[@davidrogers8516]

1) Erasmian pronunciation since most of the world renown teachers teaches it and not modern Greek. Erasmian pronunciation is easier to correctly spell Koine Greek words.

[@GreekForAll]

Excellent!

[@paulyost3283]

I started learning Koine Greek using the Erasmian pronunciation because that is how the Bible College taught it. During the 1980s, I switched to the Modern Pronunciation. However, I switched back to the Erasmian pronunciation because it's easier to differentiate between words, diphthongs, and even letters of the alphabet. However, I still love listening to music and TV shows in Modern Greek.

[@GreekForAll]

Nice!

[@user-pj7sq7ce1f]

Erasmus way is crap .greek orthodox use koine greek in church those erasmians never say when we supposed change the way we change the way we say koine

[@paulyost3283]

@@user-pj7sq7ce1f Your comment is too ignorant. It doesn't deserve a response.

[@robertshillenn6404]

Although I am an Orthodox Christian (Russian tradition), I prefer the Erasmian pronunciation. Why? It is traditional and it is relatively simple. Most importantly, each written letter basically one sound. Unfortunately, the modern Greek pronunciation of koine Greek (favored by the Greek Orthodox Church) produces too many homonyms. As a result, some passages of the New Testament become incomprehensible when read aloud, notably I Corinthians 4:10. I agree with your speculation about variations in the pronunciation of Koine Greek, even in the same century. Therefore, there is NO universally correct pronunciation. As a learner and teacher of various languages, I believe that learners of a new language must adopt a consistent pronunciation from the beginning, in order to learn the new vocabulary and grammar. Therefore, the simplest pronunciation, whether it is absolutely correct, the simplest and consistent pronunciation. Therefore, you and I are in agreement.

[@GreekForAll]

Thank you for your valuable input and for sharing your experience and knowledge. Much appreciated.

[@ScottLawson-uw1fh]

The examples of difficulty in pronunciation are with consonants. However the primary question with Koine Greek is vowel pronunciation and there was a vowel shift taking place with Koine. There can be textual issues with the NT that are resolvable by understanding what was happening with the vowels at that time. Dr Randall Buth has done work on this issue. I've switched from Erasmian to Reconstructed...it flows better in speech. But it's great advice to know all three approaches.

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks for the info. I also prefer the reconstructed, especially when it comes to the diphthongs "eu" and "au". I have the example with the vowels as well: the word "day", and I guess I could provide more if needed.

[@andrewbarnes2709]

Hello! Very interesting to hear your thoughts on Koine Greek pronunciation. Thank you for putting this video together. I am going to read some things written originally in Koine Greek, and I am trying to get a pronunciation system in place for myself before I start reading. I have three questions for you: 1. What is your maternal language? 2. Why do you say that the reconstructionist pronunciation is for more advanced situations. Can you give an example of what your thinking on this is? 3. How for away from the Koine Greek do you think modern Greek spoken in Greece has strayed? I am very interested in your thoughts and hope you will be able to find the time to put your thoughts to "paper." Sincerely.

[@GreekForAll]

Thank you for your thoughts and questions. 1. I speak Russian at home. 2. It is just easier to start with Erasmian. It’s popular and easier. You can start with reconstructed too, it’s not much harder, it is just not popular yet. 3.I don’t really know how much modern Greek went from Koine. It’s all about the vowels, and it seems that almost anything in modern Greek gives the sound [ee].

[@annagaiser5186]

Stan, you are the perfect example of why it is silly for people to argue about the "best" or the "correct" Koine pronunciation. You pronounce virtually every word somewhat differently than I would, yet I very rarely have trouble understanding you. No doubt the situation was the same in the 1st century Greek speaking world. As to your question, I would recommend that beginning students wanting to read the Greek New Testament use Erasmian. A new alphabet and a new language are hard enough! Keep pronunciation as simple as possible in the beginning.

[@GreekForAll]

You read between the lines and got to the heart of my video! Blessings!

[@jamesdakis826]

In Bible College, we didn't focus much on pronunciation since the goal was more on reading and understanding written text. However, for my purposes of learning, I prefer Modern Greek. As a Greek American who is also interested in learning to speak Greek conversationally, it makes sense for my purposes, even though there are some differences between Koine and Modern Greek. Thank you for the excellent videos and lessons.

[@GreekForAll]

True. If translation is the main purpose, pronunciation doesn’t matter much. It becomes secondary. And if you have Greek heritage then of course it makes sense to employ modern pronunciation. Thanks.

[@Smasher77th]

One thing is perfectly clear, actually 2 things: 1. Most important: the erasmian pronunciation is further koine than the East from the West. 2. The modern Greek of today is much closer than any other, so I would stick with modern. IMHO, people are too lazy to learn the correct pronunciation so they pronounce things the way they would sound in English. That anglicize everything, then they try to force even native speakers to adopt their made-up pronunciation.

[@GreekForAll]

Thank you for your contribution.

[@BoneyWhy]

I loved your video and your example from Mat. I was about to write that when you said it! We have different dialects even now with the Internet and TV etc. Imagine back then, with no such technology! No one is 2,000 years old. Unless someone had a recorder 2,000 years ago, we can't be 100 % certain. 2. It isn't a spoken language as such. Yes, I know there are schools like Professor Rico et al., but it isn't spoken as a worldwide language. Erasmian allows for clearly distinguishing between words such as the 1st person and 2nd person pronoun and flattened vowels as in Modern Greek. Not to mention how certain diphthongs sound precisely alike. So it is my preferred, though I would like to be able to converse in Modern Greek.

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks for sharing your views. It’s good to be familiar with various pronunciations, have one ad favorite, and have peace with everyone.

[@livingfreelyinspired7400]

Similar between the difference of how the Jesus prayer is prayed and how a mantra is said. Sanskrit is very precisely pronounced and the sound is the most important feature to its use. However prayer is focused on meaning and not sound. Beautiful video. I like your explanation.

[@dimitri1072]

Thank you. Personally, I use modern Greek with adjustments for some letters or clusters of letters, i.e: δασεία, βγδ, υ, ντ, μπ, γκ, νδ, μβ, γγ, long vowels when accented and optionally diphthongs (or something in between). That makes me understood by both Greeks and non-Greeks. By the way, bizarre depiction of Alexander

[@GreekForAll]

AI generated image. :) Thanks for sharing your approach.

[@lufknuht5960]

For Americans: Rule 1: have a different sound for each phoneme. We may suppose the omega (the big o) was held longer than omicron (the small o), but we don't "hear" such length today. Thus pronounce omicron as a "pure" Spanish o. For omega, add the w sound as in American "long" o. Rule 2: Where there are rather universal pronunciations & also thot to be in ancient Greek, use those: iota like the i in machine; a as the a in father. 3: we need to make ou & upsilon different; so give u the French u sound, & keep ou as ou in soup. Pronounce chi (x) like the ch in Scottish loch or the x in Mexico, a rough back h sound. Do not do modern Greek itacism as then you have not enough distinction. BTW, do not pronounce o as the a in Father.

[@MACMISIAS]

As a modern Greek I prefer the modern pronunciation but I have also a point to make about what is more right and that is the chantings of the orthodox church. Many of those are more than 1.000-1.500 years old and the pronunciation is the same with modern Greeks. And never changed because the most difficult thing in the Orthodox church is to accept changes in the tradition and this one is critical for the liturgys. So if 1.500 years ago the oi sounded "i" and the ai sounded "e" like it is today I feel i am free to make the assumption that a language so closer to ancient Greece than the Erasmius method of 16th century , must be more accurate. I understand that it is easy for people that are not native Greeks but it is probably wrong. P. S We are making a lot of jokes about the Erasmius pronunciation in Greece but I won't give any examples because you have to know modern Greek to get it.

[@GreekForAll]

You are making a great point.

[@MACMISIAS]

@@GreekForAll I'm getting back after 5 months just to mention something more. I found that one of the oldest hymns of the orthodox church that is still in use today is "Phos Ilaron" ( Φως Ιλαρόν in Greek ) which it was written in the 3rd century or very early 4th .

[@surfinbernard77]

Where I'm from (Black Country UK) we have the hard g in 'singer' etc

[@GreekForAll]

Great to know. Now I’m more confident! Will refer to this. 😁

[@ericbarlow6772]

I prefer a reconstructed version of the Koine Greek. Erasmian is too artificial but I understand why. It is a system which differentiates each letter for clarification. Modern Greek while perfectly fine for most, just feels a little too modern for this history buff. I also understand that Koine pronunciation changed over time since it roughly existed from 500BC to 500AD. I think the major factor is communication. I will say if you want to learn the reconstructed pronunciation, there are several different systems and you shouldn't mix the time periods up. There is a guide called Lucian which breaks down the pronunciation in major time periods and shows you the pronunciation for that period. I also prefer the reconstructed pronunciation of Classical Latin over the Ecclesiastical system. I understand the modern Ecclesiastical pronunciation is the Italian pronunciation system projected onto the older Latin, but Italian is descended from one of the Vulgar Latin dialects and not the Classical period (roughly 100BC to 100AD). This doesn't mean that one person using restored pronunciation cannot understand another person using the ecclesiastical system or that the ecclesiastical system is incorrect for using a more modern pronunciation. And yes there is not a 'correct' pronunciation system. I grew up in North Carolina which is one of the most linguistically diverse states in the US. I have a Western accent which is rhotic (hard 'r') while the Eastern accent is non-rhotic (e.g. muthuh instead of mother) and we even have the Ocracoke brogue which sounds similar to those in Devon, UK.

[@GreekForAll]

Very informative. Thank you for sharing!

[@leef_me8112]

9:02 Pronouncing the word 'singer' is actually very simple. The 4 letter word 'sing' ends with a 'guh' sound, the 'er' ending is just added to the end. The pause after 'sing' is removed and based on the speaker's ability, the 'guh' is slightly modified just to attach the 'er'

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks! I understand it with my mind but my mouth not always follows.

[@brileyh]

@@GreekForAll I had the same trouble with Russian while visiting Moscow on business. They had trouble with certain English consonants, and I struggled to get my tongue wrapped around some Russian consonants. We waved our hands a lot and pointed to the computer screen in a half English and half Russian. The saving grace is the Russian alphabet used Greek as their starting alphabet. That gave me a huge head start among other Americans on the team.

[@panagiotisterpandrouzachar7754]

The modern Greek language, as an unbroken continuum of koine is the best bet. The vocabulary and its derivatives remain largely the same with contextual variations. It is a living language that should not be defiled by foreigners who profess to sound more Greek than that of the true inheritors of this great tongue- the native Greeks.

[@veritas399]

My preference is early high koine, promoted by Polis institute in Jerusalem. It is similar to Erasmian except for 3 vowels. Like Randal Buth's reconstructed koine from the New testament era, early high koine is reconstructed from an earlier era early in the koine period. The pronunciation matches the spelling, simplifying learning.

[@GreekForAll]

Very interesting. Which 3 vowels are different?

[@veritas399]

@@GreekForAll Sorry I mistyped. It is 3 consonants that are different. The φ, θ, and χ are different. In "Speaking Ancient Greek as a living language" by Dr. Christophe Rico, on page v, he writes that the decisive factor was pedagogical. Making the pronunciation match the spelling to simplify learning was the goal.

[@ToddParker]

I understand we are talking about pronunciation phonetically, how does this question apply to Bible study? For example, if I default to ESV in English but will open up strongs to study the Greek or if I start with the Greek Septuagint, say Brentons? Is there a specific Biblical version that lends itself to learning through your app using the Erasmian pronunciation?

[@GreekForAll]

Phonetical pronunciation does not deal with the Bible study at all. It is just what it is - just a discussion of how it should be pronounced. My whole video is a "humble" attempt to say that this entire discussion is pretty much irrelevant.

[@williamconour1778]

Erasmian because it is used academically and theologically by most Christians. It is also easy to understand since every letter has its own sound and every syllable is pronounced.

[@GreekForAll]

Agreed

[@shubbiceman6321]

When I first started learning Koine Greek, I used the Erasmian pronunciation but it seemed so artificial. When I started learning modern Greek I tried to switch my koine to modern too, but I noticed some koine words become a bit confusing (eg ὑμεῖς / ἡμεῖς sound exactly the same, as do οὗ and οὐ). I definitely agree though that you can't say any particular pronunciation is "correct", personally I really struggle to listen to Greek spoken with an Erasmian pronunciation, especially when combined with a thick American accent (when your omicrons sound like alphas, you've lost me) Then I found the Lucian pronunciation, (resonstructed by Luke Ranieri and Raphael Turrigiano) and I've never looked back: It's similar enough to modern Greek that it doesn't offend my ears quite like Erasmian does, and it is different enough from modern Greek that I don't get my koine pronouns and conjunctions confused. This is only relevant if you are speaking of course - if you just want to read a text, then Erasmian is perfectly fine 😊

[@SRIxD]

Great video. One question: Shouldn’t the Greek church, a an ancient and very traditional institution, be an authoritative source for the correct pronunciation of koine dialect? What does their Greek sound like?

[@MJ13ish]

The writers of the NT were not Greek. They were Hebrew and potentially spoke with an accent. There is much evidence that many of NT books were written in Hebrew and translated to Greek. Hebraic thinking is behind the NT, even if written in Greek. Greek thinking is conceptual. Hebraic thinking is action oriented. Jesus was not Greek, and his sermons were not in Greek. For these reasons, I would not think the Greek Orthodox church to be the arbiters in this situation.

[@user-xh9rz7rf8l]

This is exactly the big difference between Greek and other languages. In Greek there is only one way to pronounce the letters, but Erasmus who had never heard Greek turned them into a barbaric pronunciation and at the end of his life he apologized to the Greeks. The barbarian "ko-ee-ne" that you all pronounce is completely wrong because the «oι» is a diphthong and is pronounced as ee. So the correct pronunciation is "kee-nee" stress in the last e. The same applies to the diphthongs ευ=ef or ev, αυ=af or av depend of the letter that follow, ηυ = eev, ου = ou / oo, αι - e (end), ει = ee, οι = ee. The best advice is to ask a Greek Orthodox priest about the correct pronunciation, because the Greek church is the one that kept the tradition and today uses exactly the same language as in the first century.

[@exploringtheologychannel1697]

Excellent point!

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks. Appreciated

[@ak1986]

JD, we still got to do the Christmas debate!

[@MJ13ish]

Peter's name was Simon, a Hebrew name. When Yeshua gave him his new name, that we refer to as Peter, was Kaifa, another Hebrew name. It was translated to Peter or Petros.

[@GreekForAll]

Andrew, Peter’s brother, is a Greek name meaning “a man”.

[@roberttrevino62800]

I go with Lucian / Reconstructed

[@GreekForAll]

It is a good choice!

[@roberttrevino62800]

@@GreekForAll I agree. I don’t quite understand why schools still use erasmian if it’s pretty much proven to be the least accurate. Granted, pronunciation does not matter too much, but if I’m going to learn the language, I might as well go with the “most likely” to be accurate.

[@GreekForAll]

@@roberttrevino62800 makes sense what you wrote. Tradition and convenience.

[@NicholasproclaimerofMessiah]

I use Erasmian, with a few caveats. I pronounce Alpha as "a" as in "man", Eta as a long "eh" as in "press" (as opposed to a short "eh" as in "piglet"), Upsilon "uh" as in "up" Alpha-Iota "I" as in "high" Epsilon-Iota as "A" as in "state". I'm doing careful translation to get the exact meaning, so it's not my priority to assess which pronunciation is best. I like having one specific pronunciation for each letter and for each diphthong. My understanding is that ancient Greek was based on writing things as they sounded; so, it seems there would have been one singular proper Greek pronunciation, with little variance, and different pronunciations would have been specifically improper. That's the impression I have gotten anyway. Modern English started as being based on how the words sound, but, due to the printing press and dictionaries, it veered rather far from that. I think the way English has come to be defined, is rather different from how ancient Greek came to be defined. There are definitely some parallels, both being the lingua franca of their era, but I think ancient Greek likely maintained more of a singular proper pronunciation, with other pronunciations being improper. In England, they don't have a proper pronunciation, they are all over the place, so there is no one proper pronunciation. Maybe it was the same in ancient Greece, but that's not what I think is as likely.

[@GreekForAll]

Same here. For me translation is more important than pronunciation.

[@user-pj7sq7ce1f]

Erasmus way is absolute crap a fiction.we greek orthodox 2000 years use only koine greek in church we ask those erasmians to tell us when we supposed change the way we say our language they never say ..

[@hermonymusofsparta]

​@@GreekForAllIf you can't speak and read the language fluently you are unqualified to speak about proper translations.

[@robertshillenn6404]

I use the Erasmian pronunciation, simply becuase it is simple and consistent with the standard spelling of koine Greek. Although I am Orthodox, I do not like the modern Greek pronuntiation, because there are too many homonyms. Some passages of Saint Paul's epistles are completely incomprehensible if you use the modern Greek pronunciation (e.g. I Corinthians 4:10). As you said, the reality was that there were many local accents. As a language learner, I know that you must vocalize a language in order to learn it proficiently.

[@GreekForAll]

Happy to see you here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.

[@traildude7538]

I didn't start with Koine but with Xenophon then Plato and Aristotle, and we learned whatever system of pronunciation our professor learned. I know it was different from what other colleges teaching just Koine Greek used; I have one observation about that: we learned to take dictation in Greek as our professor would slowly read out passages from Thucydides, Demosthenes, and others, which was only possible with a pronunciation system that made the spelling clear. After a few readings from third through first century B.C. authors including the Maccabees we ventured into the New Testament, which seemed much easier for us than for students at a nearby school who started out learning Koine, especially when it came to Hebrews: we loved Hebrews because it was closer to what we'd begun with; they hated it because it was so very different from Mark and John. So I don't think I learned any of the three systems. I know it wasn't modern Greek, and it almost certainly wasn't a reconstructed Koine because we kept the same pronunciation as when we read Aesop's Fables and even Aristophanes. And in junior and senior college years, at a different school, I discovered that the pronunciation I had learned was almost identical to what some professors who had studied at Oxford and Cambridge used, not just from classes but because in daily chapel many of the professors read the scripture readings in Greek and I never had a problem understanding them. That reminds me of something else: we learned to include the accents when speaking Greek: acute and grave were treated as just emphasis while the circumflex we spoke with a rising then falling tone. Over the years, interacting with other people who read and to an extent speak Koine, my pronunciation has drifted, but I don' think by much except I occasionally treat a circumflex accent close to how I apply the acute and grave. Any input on what system I probably learned would be appreciated!

[@GreekForAll]

This is quite the experience! Thanks for sharing.

[@dgrewar]

I pronounce the koine Greek alphabet like this: Alfa, vata, gaama, thelta, etc that's how I imagine it sounded.

[@GreekForAll]

And you are probably right!

[@leef_me8112]

"There is no one unified way of pronouncing English". Absolutely a true statement. English steals words from other languages. There is no unity across those languages, therefore it is impossible to say it all the same.

[@GreekForAll]

Well said.

[@ak1986]

Modern Greek. How one foreign man, Erasmus, define whole language? It is crazy. We do not have audio records of Erasmus nor 1st century Greeks. We do not have records how Martin Luther spoke German, but we assume that modern Germans are the closest to the pronunciation. Even though, we have different accents of English, we can assume that English accent is the closest that William Shakespeare spoke.

[@GreekForAll]

There is some logic in your reasoning. However, it is not how it works. I mentioned a diachronic language development, that is, how the language changes through time. How about the старославянский? It's pretty much a dead language, nobody speaks it anymore. Does it mean that modern Russian is the closest option? I see that a good linguist from any country could reconstruct a better pronunciation which will be closer than modern Russian. In brief, pretty much most (if not all) linguists know that modern Greek is not how Koine was pronounced. Erasmus was a phenomenal guy for his time! No internet, no phones, no airplanes, nothing - he sits in his dutch library and thinks how should we pronounce Koine. And he brings dead language to life. He deserves the credit. As I said, his pronunciation is not close enough - but 500 years later, his pronunciation is the most popular among non-Greeks.

[@ak1986]

@@GreekForAll How can you affirm that Erasmus was even close to the original pronunciation? Can you pick one chapter out of the New Testament to read it and recorded? If you do that I will read the same chapter and let the people judge who did it better.

[@GreekForAll]

@@ak1986 did I affirm that Erasmus was close? Where? The video clearly states the opposite! But I also affirmed that the modern is neither close.

[@ak1986]

@@GreekForAll Can you read any chapter of your choice in Greek and post it as a video?

[@GreekForAll]

@@ak1986 I am not interested in “foolish” competitions. My friend, I’ve been studying and teaching Koine Greek for over 23 years. I am aware of limitations and advantages of Erasmian and Modern pronunciations. Yes, Erasmian is more technical and artificial. All know it. Modern is more fluent. Now what? It doesn’t prove anything how Koine was pronounced.

[@jsdiaz1]

It is interesting that nobody has attempted to defend the Erasmian Pronunciation at the SBL meetings. The last time it was debated was in 2011, Dr. Michael Teofilos and Dr. Randall Buth defended their positions why their pronunciation should be preferred. In my journey I have gone from the Erasmian Pronunciation, to the Reconstructed Pronunciation as presented by Dr. Buth, Dr. Kantor, Dr. Halcomb and others; now to the Historical Greek Pronunciation (Modern Greek Pronunciation).

[@jsdiaz1]

In his book Advances in the Study of Greek, Dr. Constantine Campbell, chapter 9, takes on the pronunciation debate. After showing the history of phonology and the changes Greek went through by the use of papyri, ancients letters, inscriptions and coins; he argues why we should use the Historical Greek Pronunciation when reading Koine Greek: “1) It is less anachronistic than the Classical pronunciation of say 400 BC, which underwent rapid change in the Koine period. By 1 AD the pronunciation was closer to that of Modern Greek than the Classical. 2) It accords the non-standard phonetic spelling frequently encountered in Koine Greek documents and is indispensable to reading them. 3) It is the same as a living system of pronunciation, i.e. the modern language, which can be accessed orally and used as a model. 4) To attempt a fully accurate synchronic pronunciation would involve producing different pronunciations for different dates in the 900-year history of Koine Greek.” At the end he says that “surely a modern pronunciation would reinforce the fact that Greek is not a dead language! It is a changed language, to be sure, but one that has been spoken continuously for four thousand years. Furthermore, use of the Erasmian system may lead to unforeseen negative consequences, especially in the field of textual criticism. Misunderstanding how certain letters sounded could have a serious effect on one’s ability to understand scribal errors and corrections, not to mention any sense of rhyme, tonality, and cadence of Greek sentences and poetry.” p. 201 Students connect themselves to a real language, since it sounds like a real language. There is a connection with a living people and culture who call this language their own, and they need not be embarrassed if they ever pronounce Greek in front of a live Greek speaker. They will certainly save themselves from immediate chastisement from such people! To be able to pick out a word here and there in the Greek news on television or in a Greek newspaper is a thrill for the Greek student. They can practice Greek with their grandmother, neighbor, or local fish and chip store owner. In my view, these experiences far outweigh any difficulty that may or may not be added by using a modern Greek pronunciation (p. 206)

[@GreekForAll]

Yeah, I haven't seen any discussion on it at Denver SBL meetings in 2022.

[@GreekForAll]

Very interesting. I have the book in the library, gotta reread chapter 9.

[@jsdiaz1]

@@GreekForAllIt is a very interesting chapter.

[@betawithbrett7068]

Briiliant!!

[@GreekForAll]

Happy to serve!

[@betawithbrett7068]

@@GreekForAll εὖ οἶδα τοῦτο

[@elikittim7971]

My preference is obviously **modern Greek** because I’m a native Greek speaker. It seems to be the most authentic of the three types. I sometimes cannot understand Erasmian because it doesn’t sound Greek at all (fabricated). But I do agree with you that there were different dialects❗️

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks! Much appreciated feedback from the native Greek speaker!

[@deuticilammaia39]

I'm not a native Greek but, i use the modern greek pronounce too. It's much more advantageous! it's sound more natural and makes learning modern Greek easier for me.

[@panagiotisterpandrouzachar7754]

The modern Greek language, as an unbroken continuum of koine is the best bet. The vocabulary and its derivatives remains largely the same with contextual variations. It is a living language that should not be defiled by foreigners who profess to sound more Greek than that of the true inheritors of this great tongue- the native Greeks.

[@UnbiasedSports]

Can you answer why there are two subjects in this passage. Joseph and Jesus. thx [Mat 1:16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

[@GreekForAll]

This sentence has 2 main verbs (so two clauses), that’s why there should be 2 subjects. 1. Jacob is the subject of the first clause 2. The 2nd clause has no explicit subject but it is implied in Joseph (as you noticed). Jesus is not the subject of the 2nd clause but a predicate nominative. It is the intermediate Greek (syntax) where we learn that nominatives can play other roles besides being the subject. The words “to be” and “to become” (ginomai) require 2 nominatives: one is subject another one is predicate. Here Joseph is subject, Jesus is predicate. Check Daniel Wallace syntax book “Greek beyond the basics” the chapter on nominative case, subtitle “predicate nominative.” All the best.

[@jenniferrancourt8729]

Thank you so much! I am trying to understand my KJV bible better and know I need to have the original words to get the full meaning of scripture along with understanding what time scripture was penned. If you have any book that can help me out as I am a beginner PLEASE let me know! God bless 💗

[@GreekForAll]

KJV text is based on Textus-receptus Greek texts. It is freely available online. As for learning Biblical Greek, browse my channel, it has lots of beginner friendly videos. Also check my website www.greekforall.com it has many resources: books, video courses, apps, charts and more

[@hermonymusofsparta]

Learning Koine will not help you better understand your King James Bible or give you "nuggets" you can't get in English. That is a Bible college lie

[@brileyh]

LOL! "It is a good Die to Die!" Love the Aussie accent. I covered your subject in lesson 1 in my own Greek Video Series for novices using the Roman alphabet as a bridging tool. To answer your question, I prefer the soft-vowel spoken in modern Greek ... BUT even that language pronouncing has changed in only 50 years (1947 to 2000) as I had Greek pronunciation guides for both of those years. I documented the FAST change in my video at the 3-minute mark through the 16-minute mark: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bZm6npughr11g5I I hope you enjoy my video answer on this from three years ago. if KZbin refuses the link, do a KZbin search on "Harry Briley Greek Lesson 1" I tip my hat to your series and encouraged my students to get on your distribution list for building up their daily vocabulary. My video class enables American English speakers to get past the first hurdle of decoding the Greek Alphabet ... so it is NOT your standard seminary method of learning Koine. To understand WHY i developed this non-standard approach, see Lesson 0.

[@GreekForAll]

Thanks Harry for the deep reply with some useful information. I will definitely check your channel. I already briefly looked into some videos. The world need more videos like that, especially with some humor like the one from “My fat Greek wedding” which you used. Funny!

[@matthewheald8964]

Thank you for the video. One minor comment: while I would agree with you that people are allowed to use whichever they choose, I would disagree with your reasoning; while there were many dialects of koine throughout the eastern Mediterranean, the number that were natively spoken was much fewer and that of Attica was as close as possible to a standard Greek accent/dialect. So there was definitely a sense in which the only acceptable Greek pronunciations would have been those of Greece or (maybe) Greek colonies where the inhabitants spoke Greek natively & of those dialects, that of Attica would have likely been the most prestigious, if not considered standard &/or even proper. This dialect I believe is our goal when we debate which pronunciation to use, & I would disagree with your assessment which seems to be that all of these pronunciation systems are created equal. They are not. The Erasmian most English speaking scholars use is essentially forcing Greek into the rules of English phonology (“ευ”=“yoo”, “η”=“ay”, etc.), which makes the likelihood of it or anything like it being used by ANY regional dialect of koine about the same as the likelihood of hitting a bullseye blindfolded, if not less. For modern Greek, suffice it to say it’s been 2000 years; things can change quite a bit. Reconstructed (depending on the quality of the reconstruction) is most likely the best for historical accuracy, as you seem to imply by reserving it for advanced students instead of discarding it due to the practicality of the others. No convention is 100% perfect, but the reconstructed is closer to the truth than the others. However, historical accuracy is the only thing that makes it better than any of the others & this is something of a technicality & of less practical value than other factors. Any & all of these conventions can be used due to convenience & personal preference, so long as they are admitted to be so instead of trying to force your system on others. I use reconstructed, my friend uses Erasmian, & one of his professors uses modern Greek, but we all respect our differences & use the best convention for us. That’s all I had to say, partly to close the door to those who would justify any and all pronunciations as historically accurate on the basis of dialectal variation. I respect your opinion & right to disagree (though I believe we agree on most of what was said, with different points of emphasis) & would love to hear your feedback. It is refreshing to find a brother in Christ here of all places. God bless!

[@Dr.Reason]

While I benefited from your explanation, I feel it could have been done in far less time. This was a bit of overkill. It really went on too long. It was not necessary to… you get the idea. So while I am still very new to Greek but have been introduced to the several various pronunciations, I prefer the one where every letter and diphthong have distinct utterances, over every other letter sounding like E.

[@GreekForAll]

It is always a challenge to make a brief video and yet include enough material to make it informative.

[@vancesnyder2426]

For most, the idea is to know American English with a focus on West Coast.

[@GreekForAll]

Right! I only wish knowledge of English offered any discounts on the West Coast housing market. Haha🤣

[@dexterplameras3249]

The reason Asians can not pronounced R and L is because in their languages they never hear the difference as their languages do not have those sounds, the stereocilia (hairs that pick up sound in the inner ear) never have a chance to develop during their childhood.

[@GreekForAll]

Interesting!

[@betawithbrett7068]

συμφωνῶ σοι φίλε!

[@GreekForAll]

It's great to have you here!

[@learnbiblicalgreek316]

You say that every letter has one particular sound in the Erasmian pronunciation. But there doesn't seem to be a standard way of pronouncing Erasmian. Take the word λόγος. I hear Americans say "lah-gas" and British say, "low-goss". Some people pronounce the κ and χ in the same way. θ and χ are pronounced [t] and [k], by the French. Generally in Erasmian, the letter η is pronounced the same as the diphthong ει. ευ and ηυ are pronounced the same. Many people pronounce υ and ου in the same way thus λύω and λούω sound the same. So the cacophonous artificial Erasmian has the same problem that Modern Greek pronunciation is accused of having.

[@GreekForAll]

Totally agree.

[@geelamar3542]

Why Erasmius didn’t stay with the pronunciation of the past? I am trying to learn Greek, so I don’t know the difference. Help!!

[@alefomegaalef]

Unfortunately, this video does not understand the difference between phonemes and phonetics. It doesn't take much reading of the Greek graffiti in the Roman catacombs to see that the speakers had shifted into a 6-vowel system (ι, ε, α, ω, ου, οι). The Greek of the Dead Sea Judean scrolls shows a 7-vowel differential system (ι, η, ε, α, ω, ου, οι). Of course people from different villages could be distinguished, but they would have been pronouncing Greek within 7 distinct vowel "areas"(phonemes). Spanish uses a 5-vowel system, very close to modern Greek. Being able to distinguish differences in regions does not mean that Spanish is not using a 5-vowel system. So this video does not really elucidate the issues, either historically, linguistically, or pedagogically..

[@GreekForAll]

Thank you for your educational remarks. I am not familiar with various inscriptions and the analysis of their vowel systems. But wouldn’t it go along with my main point that there was no unified pronunciation based on geography?

[@alefomegaalef]

No. Consider modern standard Greek. There are five vowel phonemes (distinctive vowel sounds that affect MEANING). Every village may pronounce 'a' a little differently, but there would only be five distinctive (I, e, a, o, u) sounds. It doesn't matter how those five are pronounced as long as five distinctives are heard in the right contexts and not four or six, etc. All the modern speakers will have five vowel phonemes. All the Reconstructed 1st century speakers will have 7 vowel phonemes. The various Erasmian will have 10-14 (more or less, depending on the particular Erasmian system). Geographical dialect is simply a different issue if the same phonemic grid is being used. Maybe this will help: Why can Modern, Reconstructed, and Erasmian be distinguished? They are not a sliding-scale blend of "dialect".. Because they have different phoneme numbers, just like there were different phonemes for various historical periods and/or areas. Get the phonemes right.

[@peterwycka7222]

the title to this video is somewhat inaccurate

[@GreekForAll]

which one would you recommend?

[@peterwycka7222]

@@GreekForAll perhaps turn it into a question " Is there a true biblical Greek pronunciation?" idk.

[@GreekForAll]

@@peterwycka7222 thanks, I will think about it to adjust in one way or another

[@DavidSinghiser]

Go with the Greeks. Erasmian is ugly, Modern Greek is beautiful.

[@learnbiblicalgreek316]

I agree with you. Compare the reading of John 1 by this American using Erasmian kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHWQY4h5gL2Bras and a native Greek using Modern Greek pronunciation kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHWQY4h5gL2Bras Here is the whole NT read by a native Greek kzbin.info/aero/PL40D66708671D260F

[@ascender144k]

good video (there is no one official way to pronounce a language) but a bit clickbaitey

[@GreekForAll]

I somewhat agree with you. What KZbinr doesn't want his video to be clicked on. However, I didn't mean to make a total "clickbait". I think it only looks like that because of high expectation to find "the one and only" true pronunciation. I delivered an answer from a different angle (outside the box): there is no true pronunciation and any attempt to find one are almost futile. We all should be humble and tolerant to others! Thanks for being here. You are appreciated!

[@hermonymusofsparta]

I agree with your overall argument, but I disagree with your conclusion. Modern Greek pronunciation is the only phonology that can be proven to be legitimate in any way, and it is also the only pronunciation that has any practical value. That is not to say that 1st century Greek speakers spoke exactly this way, but it is the only one with any legitimacy. There is no scientific way to prove what Koine Greek or any other ancient language sounded like. The method you described that scholars use, of comparing manuscripts and different spellings, is not scientific. It is pure speculation. You cannot show your conclusion to be true in any imperical way. Also, different spellings don't tell you anything about how it was pronounced. Standardized spelling of words is a largely modern phenomenon. When linguists assert how an ancient language was pronounced, they are in the realm of a "soft" science at best, and often straight up pseudoscience. The vast majority of Biblical Greek students graduate not being able to speak, read or listen to Koine Greek fluently. They graduate with a degree in Koine Greek and are still unable to read their NT fluently. The same is true for many of their professors because they're not actually learning Greek. They're learning grammar and syntax and how to look things up in a lexicon, but not really learning the language. In contrast, a fluent native Greek speaker can pick up a Koine Greek NT and understand the lion share of it without requiring any specific study in the Koine dialect. This is because modern Greek and Koine Greek are mutually intelligible and the only people who deny this are the people in the West that can't read the NT themselves. Erasmian and reconsidered are a hindrance to learning. There is no utility or spiritual advantage to learning a made up phonology. And the truth is, the motive is often to get around what the Lord said "by going back to the Greek" without actually knowing Greek.

[@yannisdoganis9108]

What you hear is not what really is. When a greek language became an international language was something else. Imagine what would be if it was a global lingua franca. For a greek the efforts to pronounce ancient greek language is funny. It looks like the translation of linear a and b language.

[@jay.rhoden]

Modern is workable, but in my personal experience, modern leads to confusion in a "reading out loud" and "speaking out loud" situation. The ιotisation leads to too much confusion. For example, people will pronounce υμις ημις as ιμις, εν ην as ιν, οτι οτε as οτι, etc... If someone is reading John 1:1 out loud, we already know where to expect εν and ην. so no one is confused, but outside of "quoting a verse that we know", it does cause actual genuine confusion. In my opinion, the three variants of pronunciation are not overly difficult to become comfortable with. I recommend people learn to at least hear/listen to all three as part of their bible study process. Consider this. How many people are making videos about how Americans, Australians, and English speakers pronounce their vowels or consonants wrong, and arguing over which one is best? No one argues about this, we listen to people from different countries speaking, and our ears adjust just fine.

[@GreekForAll]

Totally agree. You make great points and this is what I tried to convey as well. It's great to have you here.

[@HamletsUnderstudy]

Not sure where you’re getting that first bit. ἐν /εn/ ἦν /in/ ὅτι /'ɔti/ ὅτε /'ɔtε/ Say /εn ar'çi in ɔ 'lɔγɔs/ to any Greek-speaker and they’ll know exactly what you mean. As for ἡμεῖς and ὑμεῖς, they were already confused in writing in the 2nd century BC.

[@betawithbrett7068]

There is a fairly decent size community of Erasmian Koine Greek speakers and growing. I am one of them. ἔρρεσθε!

[@GreekForAll]

Awesome!

[@yannisdoganis9108]

It's not: k. o. i. n. e but it's "κοινή" kini. Stop using these word and hear the greeks how they call it...

[@GreekForAll]

Well, my audience is not modern Greeks. And if I call it “kini”, nobody would understand it. I use the language people can understand. As it says, for non Greeks I became like non Greek. You on the other hand have all the opportunities to popularise the “kini” pronunciation. The world needs more modern Greeks teaching Koine.

[@cedricfieldmouse2860]

@@GreekForAll I recommend two native Greek-speakers teaching NT Greek www.youtube.com/@learnbiblicalgreek373/videos www.youtube.com/@PhilemonZachariou/videos