Praying to the Saints? No, Origen is NOT For it

[@jasonengwer8923]

To add to Gavin's comments about Origen, I'll mention some other relevant passages in Against Celsus. In 5:11, we're told that "we ought not to pray to beings who pray themselves". In 5:12, Origen writes, "It is wrong, then, to attempt to pray to a being who does not permeate the whole world such as the sun or moon or one of the stars." He tells us that "every prayer" is offered to God (7:51). In summary, "Away with Celsus' advice when he says that 'we ought to pray to demons [angels, whether good or bad]'. We ought not to pay the slightest attention to it. We ought to pray to the supreme God alone, and to pray besides to the only-begotten Logos of God" (8:26). The comments of both Celsus and Origen are best explained if the mainstream Christian view at the time was that we should pray only to God, not to saints or angels. For some comments from modern scholars about how Origen believed in praying only to God, see Henry Chadwick, ed., Origen: Contra Celsum (New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003), n. 6 on p. 266; Robert Bartlett, Why Can The Dead Do Such Great Things? (Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2013), approximate Kindle location 4717; John McGuckin, ed., The Westminster Handbook To Origen (Louisville, Kentucky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2004), 38; Julia Konstantinovsky, ibid., 176. For example, McGuckin, in the source cited above, writes, "Origen is clear in this work [On Prayer] that prayer ought to be addressed to God the Father alone." Konstantinovsky, writes, "He [Origen] is also much concerned with the question, 'To whom should one pray?' In the Peri Euches [On Prayer] Origen states categorically that we 'must never pray to anything generated, not even to Christ' (PEuch 15.1) and that it is a 'sin of ignorance' to pray to Christ (idiotiken hamartian) (PEuch 16.1). In his later works, however, Origen seems to have changed this view and certainly allows prayer to be addressed directly to Christ (CCels 8.26; HomEx 13.3). In fact, he often addresses invocations of his own to the divine Christ."

[@bethl]

Thank you

[@Drew-uh9oz]

@@ConfessingExalter bro what? What kind of argument is that , Jesus is God, Mary is not, the Saints are not, yes you can pray to Jesus. What an absolute poor comment.

[@austinmorris3422]

​@@ConfessingExalter By *Origen's logic...

[@maciejpieczula631]

If Origen changed his mind about praying to Jesus, would it be possible that he would have eventually have changed his mind about praying to saints?

[@jasonengwer8923]

@@maciejpieczula631 If the traditional Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) claims about the history of their teachings were true, Origen shouldn't have needed to change his mind. And there's no reason to think he would have. Including Jesus as a recipient of prayer is in a much different category than including saints or angels. The former doesn't logically lead to the latter. And we could turn your speculation around and ask whether historical sources who accepted prayer to saints and angels may have changed their mind if given more time.

[@mitchrivers9737]

Gavin I’m Orthodox. I’ve loved the back and forth on various topics between you, Joe and Trent especially. Y’all are laudatory examples of good faith discussion and I hope hard feelings never develop and this all can continue. God bless

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Yet I see too many Catholics on Joe's channel calling Gavin a wolf in sheep's clothing, and nasty stuff like that. Gavin of all people, seriously?

[@bman5257]

@@saintejeannedarc9460I’m a Catholic and I like Dr. Ortlund. There’s plenty of us Catholics that like his approach and character. I hope uncharitable and slanderous Catholics repent.

[@franciscomelgoza2799]

Bman5257 If he is right then we are idolaters and pagans. This is despite the fact that even the early reformers venerated the blessed mother and prayed to saints. So who exactly was the first Christian to say praying to saints is idolatry?

[@bman5257]

@@SpaceAdventuresofSkyCat Dr. Ortlund is certainly open to criticism, but attacks upon his character in my view are either false or unfounded.

[@Gerschwin]

I'm catholic. A convert in fact. I enjoy listening to both sides. I think videos like these (clarifying one's) are super helpful. I enjoy gavins contribution to the protestant catholic dialogue. Even though we see things differently. God bless him.

[@DanOcchiogrosso-uj4be]

Even more than convincing me of the points he is trying to make, Gavin has taught me to be humble and gracious in all of my interactions about theological differences. His tone is sharply different than so many of those who oppose him. Praise God!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

It doesn't really matter though, I still see so many nasty comments on the Catholic channels that answer to Gavin's videos. I don't see those same accusations and nasty comments to other Catholic apologists, so I wonder about that. Catholics don't like to be challenged on their beliefs, no matter how graciously it is done. These videos were merely that one of their church fathers doesn't see things exactly how they do and doesn't support praying to saints. They have to own each and every church father, and see that they are agreed w/ in every single way.

[@DanOcchiogrosso-uj4be]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I hear you. But when their institution has plainly taught that there is no salvation outside of itself, then it’s more understandable as to why they would not be as quick to graciously agree to disagree. Protestants can be wrong on certain issues and still rejoice in the gospel. Catholics can’t rejoice in an infallible teaching office if in fact it is not so on even one issue. Thanks for your response!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@DanOcchiogrosso-uj4be It's a high handed and harsh approach then. We are still admonished to have patience, grace and longsuffering w/ one another. And that we have faith, hope and love, but the greatest of these is love.

[@rolandovelasquez135]

The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him. Proverbs 18:17 Once again. Perfect.

[@jackdaw6359]

And there is a reply to this video as well

[@sebastienberger1112]

"...God is infinite. If you have God, you get everything else thrown in." - Gavin That sums it up.

[@zakkonieczka6811]

Thank you for always engaging with Catholics and doing it so charitably. I'd love to see a flowering of Protestant and Catholic apologetics online if it happens with such loving and thoughtful disposition. Our Lord is benefited by his followers coming together even when our differences are so serious and consequential. Love and prayers ❤️🙏

[@jacoblebron5035]

Dr. Ortlund is literally impossible. How can a human be so charitable and hospitable in the midst of blatant misrepresentation and borderline insult? I legitimately thank the Lord for people like Gavin to set a Godly example of how to love your neighbors.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I watched Joe's video a few times, as I've always been very curious how on earth Catholics justify praying to saints. While I found Joe's arguments pretty darn frustrating, because they were so threadbare and twisted scripture into pretzels to justify their practice, I didn't find it insulting to Gavin.

[@bman5257]

⁠​⁠@@saintejeannedarc9460You say “curious how they justify” as if there are any biblical arguments against prayers to saints besides arguments from silence, and it “feeling” like worship.

[@Stigma-ba115]

​@bman5257 you didn't watch the video. He goes into the arguments against praying to the saints from Origien

[@bman5257]

@@Stigma-ba115 But are there any biblical arguments against it? Due to sola scriptura, there would need to be a biblical argument for us to know for sure it’s wrong.

[@bman5257]

@@Stigma-ba115 And Origen doesn’t think you should not pray to the Son like you do with the Father. So we both think Origen is heretical on prayer.

[@JamesClark-le7hu]

The common catholic argument I hear of “don’t you ask your friends here on earth to pray for you… why can’t you ask the saints in heaven…” to be misleading, particularly when referring to prayers to Mary. It seems like Marian devotion is so much more than merely “asking a friend to pray for me.” I need not “devote” myself to my friend in order to ask him to pray for me. I would disagree with prayer to Mary and to saints, even without the pomp and circumstance of Marian devotion. But if the process of these prayers was much simpler and more like “hey friend, could you pray for me” then maybe the matter could move down on the theological triage scale for me.

[@bethsaari6209]

This makes SO MUCH SENSE! It doesn’t tangle anything anyone says about prayer. It is crystal clear what Origen is saying re: prayer. No acrobatics, no twisty turns, no misrepresentation. I appreciate that.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Joe has a new rebuttal and the acrobatics are in full swing. I haven't gotten all the way through it, but he still maintains that Origin prayed to saints. Apparently prayer comes in 4 different kinds and only one kind goes to God alone. This is the argument he's making about Origen's teaching so far.

[@HumanDignity10]

It would be nice if it were that easy, but it's not. I recommend watching Joe Heschemyer's rebuttal video he posted today entitled "Why Origen Believed in Intercessory Prayer to the Saints" on his Shameless Popery channel. St. Mary, undoer of knots, please pray for us!

[@natans.gultom1237]

Thanks. I only pray to God. ❤

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I'm told that's not enough. We Should be praying to saints and esp. worshiping Mary, Catholics keep telling me, or I don't have the fullness of the faith. Of course it's never admitted it's worship, even when it clearly is.

[@rem7794]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 in 1920 the Catholic Church proclaimed Jean of Arc a Saint, in heaven, alive in the realm of God, taking part of his Glory; alive, alive

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@rem7794 Sure, but we didn't need a church to proclaim this. Jeanne d'Arc is alive w/ God in heaven, as are less known saints of Jesus as well.

[@rem7794]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 yes, thanks God there is a lot of unknown Saints, but in this case in particular the title was given by the Catholic Church

[@anthonymai4434]

As an evangelical Christian I would not dare to pray to Mary the mother of Jesus or to the Apostles Peter, John, or Paul even though all four saints are in heaven with Christ. To pray to the saints would indicate that one believes the Lord Jesus Christ is not our only intercessor with God the Father which would be heresy. Prayers to the saints would be wrong even if one does not worship them.

[@miracles_metanoia]

Ummm... you just agreed with the catholic church? The catechism very clearly says that Jesus is the ONLY mediator to God the Father, but there are many mediators / intercessors before that, between me and Jesus. (Not to god the father). For example, my mother-in-law (Non denominational) interceeded and helped bring me closer to Jesus, as well as many others praying for me, and YT teachers helping refine my thinking. I asked them to help (pray means to ask - in monarchy, in legal papers, in court, in movies, etc. Prayer ALWAYS means to ask. Literal translation. Modern language is very diluted and twisted unfortunately last century. I asked / prayed for help, and my non-denominational mother in law and non-denominational husbandinterceeded and help mediate, bringing me closer to Jesus

[@GumbyJumpOff]

The Holy Spirit is called our intercessor in Romans 8. Jesus is the one mediator.

[@alcomproduction]

@@miracles_metanoia Yes, they say talking to a saint is just like talking to a buddy when you want prayer. Who talks to a buddy like this: Holy Mary, our Mother. Today, each day, and in our last hour we entrust ourselves entirely to your loving and singular care. We place in your hands: our entire hope and happiness, our every anxiety and difficulty, our whole lives. May our every endeavor be directed and guided according to the Will of Your Son, which is your will, by the aid of your prayers and special favor with God. Amen.”

[@lookup7055]

When they ask for Mary’s intercession, would that be in place of the Holy Spirit? That seems blasphemous.

[@faridrn6699]

Love all your videos brother!! A true follower of Christ! Thank you!

[@chanthecelt2490]

As a Presbyterian who is considering Catholicism I’ve really appreciated your work Gavin! I believe you’re very knowledgeable, articulate and sincere and it’s rly disheartening to see misunderstandings and misrepresentations from both sides which is part of the reason I really appreciate folks like you who genuinely examine and try to understand the “other side”. Thanks!

[@chanthecelt2490]

Mischaracterizations just wrongly damage one’s position and credibility and the credibility of the one being critiqued

[@GabrielPereira-hm1cz]

The reply to Gavin's confusion: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqqrgWewpaarmrc

[@eiontactics9056]

You should be looking into being a Christian, not looking at all the false religions like Calvinism and Roman Catholicism. Just read the Bible and believe what it says plainly. 🙏 ❤️

[@danielortega2575]

Thanks Dr. Ortlund! I think what you said at the end of your video about “prayer matters and who you pray to matters!”. Never thought about that all the prayer examples provided in Old and New Testament are directed to God alone. Beautiful! 🙏🙌

[@danielortega2575]

@patriceagulu8315 go watch his videos on cannon and why that book is not included. Also if your argument was that one of 66+ texts is the only one with such evidence then my point still stands.

[@danielortega2575]

@patriceagulu8315 once again, I point you back to his videos on canon. Also, if you are looking for a debate bro, go some place else. This is not the platform to do it. I won’t change my mind and you won’t change yours either while going back and forth with half strung sentences and arguments. Watch more of his videos on make a decision for yourself 😃

[@danielortega2575]

@patriceagulu8315 I honestly have no idea what you are saying 🤷‍♂️

[@richardkral2827]

Pastor Ortlund, you are being very kind and generous to state that the misrepresentation of your positions by Mr. Heschmeyer you do not believe to be intentional.

[@marcuswilliams7448]

Michael Scott: "[You misrepresented me] when I specifically asked you not to?"

[@jasonengwer8923]

A large percentage of Joe Heschmeyer's response is irrelevant. 2 Maccabees 15:12-16 is about a vision. A knowledgeable Protestant won't deny that we can speak with saints, angels, or other beings who appear to us in a context like a vision or in more ordinary circumstances (Mary's speaking with Gabriel in the context of the annunciation, John's speaking with angels in Revelation, etc.). That's a significantly different context than prayer. Similarly, Tobit 12:15 in the form in which Joe quotes it, like Revelation 5:8 and 8:4, is about the presentation of prayers before God. It doesn't follow that the angels (or saints in Revelation 5) are the ones being prayed to. Revelation 5:8 doesn't just mention elders. It also mentions the four living creatures. Are we to pray to them as well? When angels are referred to as carrying bowls of wrath (Revelation 16:2), we don't conclude that the angels therefore are the recipients of the wrath. Furthermore, when other passages in Revelation allude to the prayers of Revelation 5, the most natural implication is that the prayers were addressed to God and were asking Him for justice on earth. This is documented by Richard Bauckham in his chapter on prayer in Richard Longenecker, ed., Into God's Presence (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 2001), 252-71. As Bauckham explains, Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4, 9:13-14, and 14:18 have similar terminology and imagery. The phrase "golden bowl full" is used in both Revelation 5:8 and 15:7. It seems that the wrath described in 15:7 is in response to the prayers of the saints. In 6:9-10, we see the martyred saints asking God for justice. And the incense altar associated with the prayers of the saints in 8:3-4 is referred to again in 9:13-14 and 14:18 in connection with God's exercising justice on earth. It seems that the best explanation of the prayers in Revelation 5 and Revelation 8 is that they're prayers to God, asking for justice on earth. They aren't prayers to saints or angels. The earliest patristic commentators on Revelation 5:8 refer to the prayers in that passage as being offered to God, not to the elders. We see this in Irenaeus (Against Heresies, 4:17:6-4:18:1), Origen (Against Celsus, 8:17), and Methodius (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 5:8), for example. And though the angel in Tobit has a lot of knowledge of events on earth, who denies that angels sometimes have that sort of knowledge, especially if they've been sent on a task that's relevant to such knowledge? It doesn't follow that we can assume that any angel we want to pray to has any knowledge that would be needed in the context of that prayer. Likewise, as Gavin explains in the video above, the account of the rich man and Lazarus is irrelevant. Communication between two individuals in the afterlife is a significantly different context than prayer from somebody on earth to somebody in heaven (or prayer to an angel while you're in this life on earth). Concerning Matthew 27:47, the bystanders are likely Roman soldiers (suggested by their not understanding what Jesus said, their being allowed to go up to the cross and offer Jesus a drink, and the parallel between Matthew 27:48 and Luke 23:36). They're portrayed as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving. People often suggested that Jesus did things they disapproved of (Matthew 11:19, 12:24). The bystanders could easily be attributing something to Jesus that they considered an unacceptable practice, something they thought Jews in general would reject (if the bystanders weren't Jews themselves), or something they were agnostic about. The bystanders' attempt to explain what Jesus said doesn't suggest they thought that what he said was good, a common practice, or anything like that. And Matthew doesn't indicate his approval of what they said. To the contrary, he portrays them as ignorant, misinformed, and unbelieving, as I mentioned above. At 43:14 in his second video, Joe cites section 5:19:1 in Irenaeus' Against Heresies. But go to the footnote on the passage in the version of Irenaeus' work at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library web site to see how vague the terminology is. And Eve is the person referred to by Irenaeus in connection to Mary in this context. How would Eve pray to Mary in any relevant way when Eve died before Mary came into existence? If Eve prays to Mary in some afterlife context, then that, once again, is irrelevant. Joe is making a point about a broader sort of intercession of Mary involving prayer, but the passage he cites in Irenaeus is about Eve, and it isn't about praying to Mary. Furthermore, Irenaeus' comments on prayer suggest that he believed in praying only to God. I discuss the evidence in a July 11, 2023 post titled "Did Irenaeus condemn prayer to angels?" at Triablogue. As Gavin mentions in the video above, there are multiple patristic sources in the early centuries who oppose praying to beings other than God. In addition to the examples Gavin mentioned and Irenaeus, we also have evidence for such a view in other sources. Yet, Joe repeatedly makes comments in his second video suggesting that there wasn't such opposition to praying to saints and angels. See Joe's comments at roughly 49:35 regarding how we don't see opposition to something like praying to Mary; at 54:00 about how it's "really clear that they pray to the saints, but they don't worship them"; at 58:50 about how there's "no outcry" when we do see prayer to saints in the historical record. But there are comments against praying to saints and angels among a lot of early sources, and there is opposition to such prayers expressed after such praying becomes popular later on. See the examples discussed in Matthew Dal Santo's Debating The Saints' Cult In The Age Of Gregory The Great (United Kingdom: Oxford University Press, 2012). It's one of the issues brought up by Vigilantius and the church leaders who supported him, and there's a large stream of medieval sources who opposed such prayers. One of the issues Dal Santo addresses in his book is how a belief in soul sleep among some of the sources produced "radical" (308) and "profound" (315) differences in how the cult of the saints was perceived from one source to another. So, we not only see a lot of pre-Reformation sources opposing prayer to saints and angels, but we also see significant variation in how the cult of the saints was thought to operate among those who accepted praying to the saints. Joe appeals to a lack of early evidence. But keep in mind that prayer has existed since the earliest days of human history. Joe appeals to 2 Maccabees and Tobit, which are sources of the Old Testament era, and he provided no reason to think that praying to saints (or angels) could only start happening in the New Testament era, so all of human history is relevant here. We have many thousands of pages of literature and other material from many sources over many centuries. Prayer is discussed explicitly and often, with thousands upon thousands of references to prayer to God in the Bible and the early patristic literature. Entire treatises were written on the subject of prayer. Believers write to each other about prayer, ask each other for prayer, discuss the afterlife and other subjects relevant to praying to saints and angels, etc. The idea that we have to wait until, say, the fourth century A.D. to have a significant level of knowledge of who people prayed to for thousands of years leading up to that time is absurd. Why would prayer to saints and angels just happen to keep not getting mentioned across so many sources over so many centuries, even though prayer to God keeps getting mentioned explicitly and frequently?

[@gabesmith9171]

Wow- a very helpful summary!

[@zekdom]

This comment is a slam-dunk!

[@clayw70]

Excellent analysis!! Very strong points on the irrelevance of their arguments!

[@tristancook517]

What a great, well reasoned comment!

[@repentantrevenant9776]

Absolutely phenomenal comment.

[@mikeinva8563]

I appreciate how kind you were to someone who so clearly lied about you and lied about Origen. That was way beyond inadvertent misunderstanding.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I think lying might be going too far. His arguments were very lawyerly and full of rhetoric though.

[@user-ks5cg5cd7m]

Are there any examples in the Bible of living people praying to dead ones? I only can think of people praying to God.

[@thegoatofyoutube1787]

Pray simply means talk to or make a request (at least historically when Catholics say pray to a saint). Catholics ask saints for prayers the same way we ask for prayers on earth. It’s not circumventing Jesus; it’s going to Jesus together as family. Jesus talked to Elijah and Moses when he was transfigured, Revelation demonstrates that those in heaven are aware of what happens on earth and even present earthly prayers to the Lord in the form of incense, scripture says we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, angels have always ministered to humans and had back and forth dialogues. When you put all this together, it’s no wonder we have evidence of Christians evoking saints since the early centuries. It’s Protestants who came up with the idea that Christ’s body, his bride, his kingdom, is somehow separated by death.

[@alcomproduction]

@@thegoatofyoutube1787 Catholics say they don't pray to saints but rather they talk to them just like they would if they asked someone in church to pray for them. Would you walk up to someone in church and say this? “Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; may God rebuke him, we humbly pray. O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander through the world for ruin of souls. Amen.”

[@Nolongeraslave]

​@@thegoatofyoutube1787 I would humbly request people to stop using the Transfiguration as an allowance for them praying to dead Saints. First Jesus had to be transfigured and by God's permission allowed Peter, James and John to see this. As we are, we cannot be transfigured in order to see in the spirit we cannot see whom we are praying to. Scholars and theologians think that the appearence of Moses and Elijah purposely was about what Jesus was going to achieve by His death, which was to fullfil the law(Moses) and the prophecies(Elijah). Jesus loves you. He told us to pray to the Father and only THROUGH Him alone. He never directed His disciples to pray through anybody else be it Mary, Apostles or Prophets. He is our friend and our saviour. Praying for one another is just that, that is why we gather for prayers. We all have times of weakness where we need one another. It is mistake to extend that into heaven. That's why people have familiar spirits of dead persons haunting them. Those defending these practices will be held accountable to what they teach. It will not be a good thing to be judged more harshly than others.

[@KnightFel]

@@thegoatofyoutube1787prayer is worship in the Bible. Not just asking.

[@roses993]

Zero examples of f anyone praying to people in heaven.

[@mj6493]

One of the things I appreciate the most about your work here is that along with your pastor’s heart you bring a scholar’s discernment and breadth of study to popular conversations. We need much more of that all around. Many of the other apologists, both Catholic and Protestant, just don’t bring that.

[@clayw70]

Thank you for covering this topic! It's a very important issue that needs to be addressed. You did an excellent job of fully covering Origen's teachings on the matter. It's no doubt that he believed that prayer was to be given to God alone.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

You had a great comment in here about the angel in Daniel being delayed and how even angels aren't omnipotent. I tried to reply to it, but I think it got filtered out or deleted somehow. Which is so unfortunate, because it's so relevant. I'll pop the reply I tried to make to it here. I was just thinking of this very set of scriptures, about how angels are also not omnipresent, but can be delayed. The Catholic argument would of course be the glorified saints and esp. Mary are above the angels and have better powers. Except the scriptures say, "man is made a little lower than the angels". I'm sure they have a workaround for that as well, but it's good enough for me. Let's take Mary, who is the object of incredible hyper veneration and would be bombarded w/ millions of prayers every day. Somehow, she can assimilate all that, just like God can. She can keep them all straight, then pass them to God on our behalf. Something else I was just pondering is when Gavin in his original video mentioned the Psaltery of the Blessed Virgin Mary, to look it up. He cited some very venerating prayers, but these Marian psalms are like nothing I've ever seen. I kind of wish I hadn't looked them up. The psaltery was the precurser to the rosary, but it's available as a CAtholic app now, so still in circulation and still being prayed to Mary, giving her every attribute of God and even saying her breasts had "deific milk".

[@clayw70]

@saintejeannedarc9460 You're correct that post got accidentally deleted. Should I retype the post? Do you think it would be beneficial to others?

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@clayw70 You made excellent points and I'd just been thinking of those Daniel scriptures. Please repost.

[@clayw70]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I just did. Please read and comment. I tried to get all the main points back in. Let me know if it's lacking anything from the original.

[@clayw70]

@saintejeannedarc9460 You're additional points are absolutely correct!

[@Christian-ut2sp]

Always encouraged by your patience in the midst of gross misrepresentation

[@RICARDOALVARADO-ec7ql]

Thank you Dr. Ourtlund!

[@revestidadegracia9368]

“Pray to God alone”. Amen! People do what they want to do and disregard the will of God. Just because other people do it doesn’t mean you have to do it. Ask God for discernment…praying to anyone other than God is a dishonor to our creator.

[@StanleyPinchak]

Honoring the saints honors God according to the Psalmist. “God is wonderful in his saints: the God of Israel is he who will give power and strength to his people. Blessed be God.” (Psa 67:36, DRC) It is zero sum thinking to assume that asking for intercession from and giving honor to the saints diminishes adoration for God and precludes participation in the unbloody sacrifice of Malachi 1:11 which is reserved to God alone. Taken to its conclusion this line of thinking would lead to the gnostic belief that creation is bad and furthermore that God could not receive or deserve glory for his wondrous works. Thankfully, the Psalmist corrects this false notion. “The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.” (Psa 18:2, DRC) “How great are thy works, O Lord ? thou hast made all things in wisdom: the earth is filled with thy riches.” (Psa 103:24, DRC)

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

They get around that one by claiming they are simply asking for prayer, as they would ask you for prayer. Yet they admit that they think prayers of saints carry much more weight w/ God and our piddly prayers are weak. I've heard them use, "the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much", ad nauseum. They don't understand that we are the righteous man, or that we the living Christians, are the saints.

[@StanleyPinchak]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 Clearly Job shows some prayers are more effective. “Take unto you therefore seven oxen and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust, and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you: for you have not spoken right things before me, as my servant Job hath.” (Job 42:8, DRC) If Job is just, how much more just are those in the kingdom of heaven where they are like the angels? “Amen I say to you, there hath not risen among them that are born of women a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” (Mat 11:11, DRC) “Neither can they die any more for they are equal to the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luk 20:36, DRC) Why do you have such a low view of the saints? Do you not know: “God is wonderful in his saints: the God of Israel is he who will give power and strength to his people. Blessed be God.” (Psa 67:36, DRC)

[@franciscomelgoza2799]

Except that every ancient church disagrees with you, including the martyrs of the faith.

[@revestidadegracia9368]

@@StanleyPinchak We are the saints who are called to pray for one another. If the saints in heaven can pray and intercede for us, why was God looking for someone here on earth to intercede or stand in the gap in Ezekiel 22:30. Also, it is clear in the Bible that believers in Jesus Christ are the saints. And yes, many of those believers are in heaven but God didn’t ask us nor Jesus said to pray to them. Jesus clearly said to pray to the Father.

[@LemonLimeJuiceBarrell]

Whenever I think about this topic I immediately think of King David and the Psalms. The Psalms generally read like prayers to me. Not once does David plead with or exalt anyone other than the God. I think that if we could expect to see prayers or requests to angels anywhere in the Bible it would be in Psalms or Job for that matter. I know this is technically and argument from silence but idk this is where my mind always goes.

[@austinmorris3422]

​@patriceagulu8315what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Where do the women of Jerusalem pray to David?

[@LemonLimeJuiceBarrell]

@patriceagulu8315 I think that interpretation is either ignorant or intellectually dishonest. Can you give me chapter and verse where David is worshipping Solomon in the same way he would worship God? There are plenty of instances in the Bible and in real life if people “praising” each other, whether it be due to gratitude or acknowledgement or good leadership. I don’t think the two are comparable at all.

[@danielortega2575]

@patriceagulu8315 this guy is something else…literally commenting on everyone’s comments from this video with pure ignorance…totally a troll. Time to move one man. You’ve been found out!

[@danielortega2575]

@patriceagulu8315 no one claimed that God failed the church… 😒

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@patriceagulu8315 Psaltery to the Blessed Virgin Mary, which has mostly been replaced by PRAYING THE ROSARY now. Except this Psalter, full of prayers to Mary is available on a Catholic app. We all know the psalms are prayers, and these are psalms to Mary, giving her the virtues and powers of God, and also the praise that is always denied she gets, which is due only to God: PSALM 15 Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee: do thou bestow on me the dew of thy grace. Thy virginal womb has begotten the Son of the Most High. Blessed be thy breasts, by which thou hast nourished the Savior with deific milk. Let us give praise to the glorious Virgin: whosoever ye be that have found grace and mercy through her. Give glory to her name: and praise forever her conception and her birth. Glory be to the Father

[@tategarrett3042]

Gavin thank you so much not only for making this response to clarify the completely incorrect views that Joe was putting into both your and Origen's mouths, but even more so for the spirit you do it in. I think a lot of people would just start name calling and pointing angry fingers after being treated the way you have been here - and not for the first time here either. But instead of responding with what most would believe is justifiable anger at what you could have easily called slander you modeled Christian compassion, and love by assuming no ill intent. It's because of this that I think your efforts have a real and tangible impact on drawing Christians of different denominations together, rather than digging the trenches that separate them even deeper. You pursue truth and even when confronted with - what could very well be accidental - lies being told about you and your views, you're still behaving with grace and compassion. God bless you for that, and all the work you do. May it continue to knit people closer to Christ, and each other.

[@jeroenvankooten]

I am catholic. And i really appiciate you Gavin. Your attitude is so refresing. Dont take things to personal. You have good intentions and everybody knows it. I dissagree with uou. But thats allowed. And my believes doesnt say anything about your intensions. Keep up the great work.

[@goldenspoon87]

If we are to pray to the saints and Mary, who did the Apostles and Mary pray to? What prayers did the Apostles pass on that we are to imitate? This issue is a catch 22 to begin with and it is rather more likely that prayers to the saints was foreign to the Apostles and their immediate successors and thus a later invention.

[@JeP-lz4ti]

@patriceagulu8315 So when the church was trying to sell salvation with indulgences, that wasn't err?

[@ryanharvey6375]

Well I often hear talk of the transfiguration being a nudge to talking to saints passed on, as well as the great cloud of witnesses being used as an indication that we can communicate w those passed on. All those people were fm the old testament, so the apostles and Mary could have prayed to them. Including maybe Philip who seemed to die early on enough.

[@roses993]

​@@ryanharvey6375Jesus did not pray to people in heaven. During transfiguration, the old testament men appeared and saw the promise: Jssus. That's it. No apostle prayed to people in heaven. If you want to assume and choose to think it might have happened, it's ONLY an assumption. Given it's only an assumption and given it's not clearly taught...then leave it alone. Don't do the mistake as catholics do, they made this part of their doctrines. It's insane!!

[@ryanharvey6375]

@@roses993 I agree w you 😊 I like your spunk 😅 I wasn't clear when I wrote that, I meant it to respond to his comment on predessesors : there is an argument that we don't see prayers to saints among the apostles bc they had no predessesors to pray to, but if Catholics count the transfiguration as Jesus talking to saints, then old testament saints would count as predessesors to pray to. but there are no examples of prayers among the apostles to anyone besides the Father (ex. no prayers to Moses or Elijah). Also we might even see a prayer to Philip and maybe Mary if they passed on before the Epistles were written, but idk if they did. Anyway no one in the new or old testament writings made a prayer to, or talked to, those who passed on besides Saul and Jesus. That I know of.

[@TheRoark]

Wow that is remarkably bad. I see now why you had to make this video, not only because of his mis presenting you but also trying to make Origen say exactly the opposite of his repeated point.

[@j.athanasius9832]

Origen clearly clearly clearly says we are to pray to God alone

[@marriage4life893]

Jesus said we're to pray to our father in heaven. His words are enough and settle the matter.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@marriage4life893 Yeah, no. That's to be totally ignored and never answered to by Catholics. I've never had a Catholic explain why Jesus' model of prayer doesn't count. They just ignore when I point out the Our Father, and just parrot about church tradition. They claim they esteem the bible, but put tradition above the bible very consistently. If this is pointed out, they just claim that they own the bible, they Gave Us the bible, because the Catholic church canonized it. Some even claim they actually wrote the bible. That's how big Catholic pride and hubris can be.

[@MrWesford]

Origen is a heretic, this is just another point in which he deviated from Christianity.

[@HumanDignity10]

I strongly suggest people watch Joe Heschmeyer’s rebuttal to this video because he shows how Gavin really is misunderstanding Origen. Gavin might still disagree, but Joe has some good information about it. It would be nice if the two could dialogue directly.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

I love this. Listening to you is a breath of fresh air. I always anticipate your videos. God bless you and your family ❤🙏

[@Caffer9286]

God bless you brother for the clarity you bring, and your delivery of these topics. You are a blessing to the body in the YT age.

[@Andy-gq5hb]

Not only is it the saints praying for us and not the reverse, it also doesn't say the saints pray TO us. Like if Paul was praying and asking me to help him with something, he is going to be extremely disappointed.

[@dman7668]

As a Catholic I enjoy all these back and forth videos. Let people watch these different views and make up their own minds.

[@TruthUnites]

"Let people watch these different views and make up their own minds." Well said. Open examination of truth is excellent.

[@theRockSalter]

Did you enjoy the part where he labeled your prayers as idolatry?

[@dman7668]

@theRockSalter I can handle people disagreeing with my personal views or political views or my views on which car is better. I don't take it personally. It's not like he is saying I suck personally.

[@theRockSalter]

@@dman7668 excellent advice sir 🙏

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

@@TruthUnites @9:19 you're okay with saying Mary "caused" salvation? Amen! She played an instrumental role in the incarnation. Why can she not then also be an instrumental role in bringing hope, peace, ect? If she can instrumentally bring us the Son of God alone, why can she not be an instrument in these other expressions of honor.

[@mikekayanderson408]

I watched some of the videos and I was very aware of how Joe misrepresented you and almost seemed to scoff at you. I read the comments made by his followers and many of them did accuse you of being a liar. So I am glad you have now responded. Trouble is most of his followers won’t even watch this. Obviously I am a Protestant and I wrote many responses to the comments his followers made - especially regarding the one about praying to the saints being pagan and the one before that about devotion to the saints getting in the way of focusing on Jesus. I feel that I may as well have been speaking to a stone wall! They are totally dedicated to Mary and the saints - and only God by His grace can change their minds. But we have to speak out as we are told to defend the faith. We can only pray for them that they will come to a knowledge of the truth by God’s grace. K

[@samueljennings4809]

@patriceagulu The Reformers and classical Protestants believed that too. They thought that the Church could pick up some errant practices and doctrines without fully falling away from the Faith and that it was still the Church established by Christ, but they just wanted to reform it in the spirit that Josiah reformed Judah. Completely different from the “Great Apostasy” idea from SDA’s and Mormons, who would be more likely to fall into the group you’re talking about.

[@mikekayanderson408]

Please explain your question in relation to my comment? No the gates of hell will not prevail against the church because it is instituted by Jesus Christ the rock. he is the cornerstone and the only foundation. It is founded upon the Gospel of God. The church is made up of living stones - born of God and chosen by Him before the creation of the world for whom Jesus died. Jesus Christ is the head of the church - no one else - and the saved ones are the body. The body of Christ. If you disagree with any of this then you need to read your Bible carefully. I am only repeating what the Bible says. And I am not your Bro. I am female and have been signing my comments with a K. As per the Kay in the address. @patriceagulu8315

[@justusmorton6555]

​@patriceagulu8315Oh? Do you believe that there are 100+ Catholic denominations? Which one is the true one? This question would be incomprehensible to Catholics. Yet they would have to believe such if they cite that number. The number you cited comes from a sociological study that defines denominations such that a single denomination that is present in 2+ countries is 2+ denominations even if they are organisationally connected. The real number of denominations is orders of magnitude less, and many denominations believe that others outside their own church are valid churches. The number also includes many sects that may claim to be christian but both of us would deny the title (eg JWs or Mormons). All in all, please do not appeal to that number to make your point. If you want to make a point about protestant disunity, that point would still be made by a more accurate number. (If complete christian denominational unity was considered to be of the utmost importance even 2 denominations would be terrible.) I don't know how many denominations there are because I don't particularly care. If you want more information I recommend the video that Ready to Harvest made on the topic.

[@justusmorton6555]

@patriceagulu8315 All Christian churches have the core truth. What Gavin would call First Rank issues. There are many groups within the one church that is the body consisting of all belivers. (There is no church where all of their members are saved and no church that contains all who are saved.) I believe that catholics who pray to saints are brothers in christ although I don't see the point. But, I would not be comfortable in a church that practiced prayer to saints as part of the liturgy. Therefore both churches that include prayers to saints and those that exclude are true churches. Judah and Israel were both God's chosen people despite their division.

[@justusmorton6555]

@patriceagulu8315 before I can give an answer I need to know: Do you think protestants are christian? If the answer is no then there is no point discussing further.

[@jfitz6517]

Gavin, God is using you in this KZbin ministry. I could feel you holding back your frustration on this one. Keep leaning on Christ even when you’re miss-represented, you’re serving as an example for us all in your patience & kindness in the face of unfair criticism!

[@concernedmom-co7wo]

Thank you so much for this video AND all of the others that I will be BINGE watching talking about the Roman Catholic Church. This year...after 28 years of marriage and 8 kids....my husband and kids are working through the membership class to join the Catholic church......we've been Protestants until this year and I am having such a hard time understanding WHY they are doing this. Your videos have helped me to NOT THINK THAT IT'S JUST ME and that I"M CRAZY for disagreeing with them! Thank you for taking the time to educate those of us about these issues so that we can better understand and better argue our Protestant side. THANK YOU!

[@StanleyPinchak]

God bless you all. May the intercession of St. Joseph protect your family during this period of transition.

[@andonlal]

Welcome to the one true Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. I pray for your discernment and guidance through this passage.

[@joeoleary9010]

@@andonlal This person said she *doesn't* want to join the Catholic church. If you want to be an evangelist you have to actually listen to what people say.

[@joekey8464]

Why do they even question the prayers to saints?...prayers to saints are humble requests, totally different from worshiping God at Mass and the Holy Eucharist at the Lord's Day.. Or there could be the misunderstood idea of a saint. Catholic Saints number in the tens of thousands. These saints are not "mere" men and women. Saints made Christianity alive and real, that goes beyond the abstract of religion and philosophy. Saints made a deep impression not only in Church and faith-related matters, but also in the history of thoughts, in the evolution of the society, in political, economic and human events. They are men and women with spiritual strength and faith, who sacrificed their existence, giving up everything else, sacrificed themselves to God’s will and the sake of their brothers. They contributed to the Christianization of Europe and to the birth of the Western society. Saint Benedict: Founder of the Benedictine order, considered the father of the Western monasticism. He created a community of men who shared his same spiritual yearning and brotherly charity. Many centers for prayer and centers of culture and assistance to the poor were built. The solitude of hermits turned into a communion of men, with their intents, their strength, their faith, which set an example of strength and effect for all humankind of that time and the following centuries. St. Ignatius Loyola: He founded the Jesuits with the aim of proclaiming the Gospel in charity and truth, placing an emphasis on interior renewal. They brought the evangelic message to the whole world with their missionary activities. Francis of Assisi: His love for Jesus led him to give up everything he had, dedicating his own life to prayer, work and preaching. Consecrated to poverty, he wanted to follow Jesus’ steps, which he could recognize in every suffering person. We owe him the foundation of mendicant orders, united by the vow of poverty. Saint Joan of Arc: Joan had a major role in the Hundred Years’ war, in the deep political crisis caused by the Western Schism and the conflicts between France and England. She was sent by God to lead the French army in battle. Her example to us testifies that the love for your own country can be compared to a Christian value; you must always fight for the truth and not for power. She at the age of 17 ended the Hundred Years War. Saint Teresa of Avila: She was the founder of the monks and friar of the Carmelites, who chose to dedicate their whole lives to prayer, and to turn life itself into a prayer. She was the first woman to be recognized as Doctor of the Church, and contributed to the renovation of the Church itself by offering a new model of charity and interpretation of the Gospel, and choosing a religious life made of austerity and joy, strictness, solitude, in a deep union between mystic and apostolic life.

[@catkat740]

I highly recommend the Catechism in a Year podcast instead of Gavin! He doesn’t have the full picture!

[@MrKingishere1]

Hey Gavin, I really think you should make a video addressing the claim by Catholics that the entire church fathers were Roman Catholic, it’s a really popular claim among Catholics and I’ve never seen a protestant apologist really tackle that claim.Highly recommended for later!!

[@jasminemariedarling]

Were they? Since there was only Catholicism to choose from before the reformation, I think that was it?

[@MrKingishere1]

@@jasminemariedarling or they were just Christian’s alone not tied fully under one church ?

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@jasminemariedarling Yeah, that's the lofty claim of Catholics, who claim all of Christiandom from the very time of the apostles, even though the bible says differently. The RCC church wasn't in full swing until at least the 4th century. By the time of the reformers, it was mostly Catholicism, simply because the RCC had gained all the power and any protestant sects were hunted down and killed. The only reason the reformation happened is because God willed it and the invention of the printing press enabled it. The RCC lost it's stranglehold on Christianity, through the might of the sword and merger of church and state.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@MrKingishere1 It's not just the church fathers who were all Catholic, the bible is Catholic, not only compiled it, they wrote it I'm told. The apostles were also Catholic and Jesus instituted the Catholic church from day one when he handed the keys to Peter. I've heard it all. It's all Catholic, every last bit of it. Not only that, it's a perfect church, w/ all authority, w/out any error in doctrine and infallible. So there's all that to address to. I've never seen a prouder sect of Christianity, except maybe the Orthodox, who don't recognize us as Christians at all, because we don't adhere to their sacred traditions. Jesus doesn't save, his word isn't transformative in regenerating us through the renewing of the word, and we can't interpret the bible bible on our own anyways. We need their church to do it for us (remember the all authority part).

[@MrKingishere1]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 😂🤣🤣 bunch of claims and no evidence. That’s as silly as a Muslim claiming Jesus and the other prophets were Muslim. Get out of here with that nonsense bro. You’re not worth any attention as I don’t take you seriously. Jesus and the apostles would absolutely rebuke the Catholic Church today. IT WOULD BE REALLY BAD AND HUMILIATING FOR YOU GUYS

[@jasonengwer8923]

Advocates of praying to saints and angels occasionally suggest that people like Origen were only criticizing offering a higher form of prayer to created beings, whereas it was acceptable to offer them a lower form of prayer. But the burden of proof is on the shoulders of those who want us to accept that view. Origen generally just uses a term like "pray" or "prayer" without further qualification, which suggests that he didn't have the relevant sort of qualified sense in mind. He makes a distinction between how we should pray "more" to the Father than to the Son (Against Celsus, 5:11). Henry Chadwick's rendering of the closing sentence of section 5:4 of Against Celsus has Origen writing, "We will even make our petitions to the very Logos himself and offer intercession to him and give thanks and also pray to him, if we are capable of a clear understanding of the absolute and the relative sense of prayer." (Origen: Contra Celsum [New York, New York: Cambridge University Press, 2003], 266) We make that kind of distinction between praying to the Father and praying to the Son when interpreting Origen because Origen tells us that he held that view. By contrast, we haven't been given any evidence that he believed in some other form of prayer to be offered to saints and angels. To the contrary, when responding to Celsus' criticism of Christians for not praying to angels, Origen doesn't respond by explaining that they do pray to angels with a form of prayer that's lesser than the form offered to God. Rather, he just denies that Christians pray to angels (and other created beings). And these principles I've applied to Origen can be applied to other sources as well. It's not as though it's just a higher form of prayer to saints and angels that's absent in scripture and the earlier patristic sources. Rather, there isn't a lower form of prayer to saints and angels either. And the Biblical and extrabiblical condemnations of attempting to contact the deceased and praying to angels don't add any qualifiers to the effect that it's only wrong to pray to them in a higher sense, whereas we can pray to them in a lesser sense. Instead, the evidence suggests that in the context Protestants and Catholics are focused on, the relevant Biblical and extrabiblical sources only prayed to God.

[@romans1229]

Wow! Clearly have a lot to learn. This subject is new to me 🤔

[@bman5257]

Origen explicitly makes this differentiation, it’s not an assumption. “Yet if we are offer thanksgiving to men who are saints, how much more should we give thanks to Christ, who has under the Father's will conferred so many benefactions upon us? Yes and intercede with Him as did Stephen when he said, "Lord, set not this sin against them." In imitation of the father of the lunatic we shall say, "I request, Lord, have mercy" either on my son, or myself, or as the case may be. But if we accept prayer in its FULL MEANING, we may not ever pray to any begotten being, not even to Christ himself, but only to the God and Father of All to whom our Savior both prayed himself, as we have already instanced, and teaches us to pray.” -Origen of Alexandria, On Prayer 10, emphasis mine

[@jasonengwer8923]

@@bman5257 Gavin's video cites the phrase you've highlighted, and I cited other material in Origen in which he distinguishes between types of prayer. That's not the issue. Rather, the issue is whether he makes a distinction that supports the practice of praying to saints and angels. Nothing in the passage you've cited does that. As I explained in my post above, it's not enough to argue that Origen differentiated between types of prayer. You have to demonstrate that he differentiated between types in a way that supports praying to saints and angels. But maybe you highlighted the wrong words in your quote. Maybe you meant to emphasize Origen's opening comments about giving thanks to saints. If so, you're taking him out of context. As the sentences just before what you quoted demonstrate, Origen was addressing interactions with people on earth, "intercession and thanksgiving, not only to saintly men but also to others". That's not prayer in any relevant sense. If two people on earth have a conversation, involving thanksgiving or whatever else, that isn't the sort of prayer Protestants and Catholics have in mind when they debate this subject.

[@Stigma-ba115]

This is a common and honestly extremely irritating argument that Catholics tend to make with doctrine. They know that many of their practices seem to be very idolatrous on the face of it and go expressly against scripture, so to get around this, they subcategorize all these concepts so they can get around it being a sin. So it's basically like "oh, there are different types of prayer, there are different types of worship, there are different types of sins, there are different types of x. It's the apologetic equivalent of "Yes, but actually no". They say it's just nuance, which is a fine, but the problem is you can nuance your way into justifying anything. "Oh, you say me stealing this money is a sin? Well, actually, there are many types of procuring property without the concent of the owner, and not all of them are sinful, duh!

[@asgrey22]

⁠ Prayer had a much wider meaning pre-Reformation, though. For you to say “that’s not prayer in any relevant sense” is exactly why this is a non-issue and why Catholics have started saying “We ask the saints to pray for us” rather than we “pray to the saints” -- it accommodates the evolution of the English language and what we intend when we do it. If anything, the issue is not us asking for intercession of the saints per se, but whether or not our requests are made known to them through the Logos.

[@franciscocuesta]

"We, however, do not take the parables as sources of doctrine, but rather we take doctrine as a norm for interpreting the parables." - Tertullian

[@mavericktheace]

God bless you Gavin and your Christ-like engagement with other believers. Your teachings are a blessing.

[@chrisazure1624]

Philippians 4:6-7 NKJV Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. - Here we have clear instruction to pray to God.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

There are many scriptures that clearly tell us to pray to God. Jesus gave us a model of how to pray, and it was to God and not to saints. The apostles talked of prayer, and instructed us to pray for one another, and to pray for them in their ministry. Never did the apostles teach to pray to departed saints either. It doesn't matter. CAtholics love the idea of doing it. Their church teaches it, it's their tradition and they are crazy about the idea of it. They have no clear scripture. Just a bit of very obscure, maybe kinda sorta, but they pry it out of these murky scriptures anyway and claim it's in the bible. Mostly they do it out of tradition. These traditions were modeled after paganism, but they get upset at that.

[@chrisazure1624]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 "Our Father, who are in heaven . . ." Jesus taught us to pray to the Father and not his mother.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@chrisazure1624 They could easily argue that Mary was still alive then, so Jesus wouldn't have used that example. He didn't model praying to any other saints either though.

[@chrisazure1624]

@saintejeannedarc9460 True. The idea of appealing to his mother, to appeal to himself seems a but absurd in the first place.

[@mikeoconnor4590]

In regards to prayers to the saints - there are over 2000 prayers to the saints etched into the catacombs and intercessory prayer to the Saints is found in all of the early liturgies. Are we really to believe that these things were added into the fabric of Christian belief and not actually long-standing practice once the liturgies were formalized? In that regard it seems highly improbable that prayer to the saints was a pagan practice that somehow crept into Christian faith and worship. Indeed EVERY Church that has an organic connection to Christ (eg: the orthodox, orientals, Coptic and Catholic) through apostolic succession and the laying on of hands embrace the practice. Just seems improbable that these churches got it wrong - especially when one considers that these were the same Christian’s being fed to the Lions for their faith (at least the Christian’s who were writing these prayers in the Catacombs).

[@stephenwright4973]

Catholics don't seem to grasp the difference between asking for the intercession of saints on earth whom you can contact by natural means, and trying to contact saints who have died. The assumption that saints in heaven can hear us is ascribing to them a supernatural breadth of knowledge and ability that, as far as we know, belongs only to God.

[@StanleyPinchak]

They literally surround us. “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” (Heb 12:1, KJVA) And even if the saints themselves are out of ear shot there are tens of thousands of angels, certainly there is one that can relay the message. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” (Heb 1:14, KJVA)

[@MrWesford]

Of course The Saints can hear our prayers and intercede for us. Revelation shows us Saints who have passed on helping those on earth through their prayers. There’s been innumerable cases of Saints responding to and helping The Faithful throughout Church History.

[@clayw70]

This is a passage that can get overlooked in this discussion. And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly loved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for now I have been sent to you.” And when he had spoken this word to me, I stood up trembling. Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words. The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.” Daniel 10:11‭-‬14 ESV The passage explains that the angel Gabriel was sent to Daniel because of Daniel's visions and prayers to God. What also can be concluded is that the angels are not omnipresent, as Gabriel says that he had to wait 21 days to go see Daniel. Therefore, the only way for an angel or saint in heaven to hear the prayers is through God. This is a clear example of a ministering spirit as described in Hebrews 1:14. They do surround us and help minister to us, but to say that Hebrews 1:14 is teaching that angels can hear everybody's prayers similatanously on their own is adding to the text.

[@stephenwright4973]

@@MrWesford A clear command or example from the Apostles would help. I don't doubt that the saints in heaven are employed in praying for us. That they have the ability to hear millions of supplicants on earth suggests that they possess a godlike ability. Of course God could give them that ability, or He could have His angels tell them what they need to intercede about. But all of this is sheer speculation without a hint of a command or an example from Scripture, and as in so many other cases, the Catholic Church has elevated pious speculation to the status of mandatory, non-negotiable doctrine on her own authority. The "countless examples through history" carry no weight whatsoever. There have been superstitions and delusions throughout history that carried their own tales of success, plausible or otherwise. We need a clear command from Christ or His Apostles. And that's not even to start on the dangers of habitually praying to beings other than the One Whom Christ commanded us to.

[@stephenwright4973]

@@StanleyPinchak That's possible and plausible, and also purely speculation.

[@cephasmwila7537]

With your video, many will believe in soul sleep. Many people today to get healed because of the intercessory prayer of the saints.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

And how can you prove that someone was healed because of the prayers of the saints?? They told you??

[@fab7an758]

Did you even watch the video? Gavin and Origen both claim the angels and deceased saints pray for us. BUT Origen says prayers should be directed to God ALONE.

[@geordiewishart1683]

Why do we need the resurrection if we are not really dead but are alive in heaven? The bible says man is a soul. Not that he has one. But what do you think a soul is? It must have ears to hear, eyes to see, and a mouth to speak? So is it a body?

[@cephasmwila7537]

@@fab7an758 yeah.. I did he thinks to wrong to ask for intercession to the saints.. which is sad..

[@cephasmwila7537]

@@raphaelfeneje486 yes they told me just like the Paul told us the Christ was raised from dead. And we all believe him

[@SamTheSubSaharan]

So according to Catholics, we pray to the saints so that they intercede to God on our behalf but the only way they can hear our prayer requests is if God reveals our prayers to them. What kind of convuluted bureaucractic system is this?

[@skyorrichegg]

I think some believe that the saints can omnisciently or supernaturally hear our prayers in some way... which I find just as detestable in the way that it, without good evidence, elevates the saints well beyond what is indicated of them.

[@StanleyPinchak]

@@skyorrichegg Evidence 1) speaking of the angels: “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” (Heb 1:14, KJVA) Evidence 2 Jesus claim for those in the kingdom: “Neither can they die any more for they are equal to the angels and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” (Luk 20:36, DRC) If the dead in Christ are equal to the angels and the angels are ministering spirits to us Christians on earth, then are not the saints afforded the same ability to minister to us? In doing so they fulfill Jesus command: “A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” (Joh 13:34, DRC) And “Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.” (Jam 5:16, DRC)

[@skyorrichegg]

@@StanleyPinchak Using those verses as a connection for an accretion like praying to the saints is quite the stretch in my opinion. Pray for one another, not to one another to get them to pray for you in heaven. Once again, I think it is fine if the saints are praying for us in heaven, if I am able to I will when I am heaven, but it is QUITE the theological stretch to stretch that to praying to those saints in heaven to get them to pray for us.

[@MrPeach1]

It's God's system. Don't be too critical or you will undercut praying in general. Jesus said God already knows your needs before you ask. Based on a worldly view it sounds like all prayer is completely unnecessary. Yet God wants prayers even when they don't make sense to us. I can say the same for the book of Job. Why did God specifically request prayers from Job over the other gentlemen? In short God knows everything so your complaint about asking Saints for prayer really undercuts all prayer.

[@SamTheSubSaharan]

@@MrPeach1 prayer's also a form of worship and communication, so there is no way that I would undercut it.

[@maxiomburrows2099]

I am a 66 book adherent and do pray FOR the angles and saints, even for their life as it was/is/willbe (according to my perspective), as well preach the gospel to the whole world around me (yes, even plants and animals). To ask of anyone besides the creator (that sustains all things) be they presently dead or alive seems like asking the impossible from our broken state, but I do appreciate the prayers of my brothers and sisters.

[@catkat740]

Gavin, I sincerely hope you address more of the arguments Joe brought up, especially the quotes found in Tobit and the story of Lazarus. He made some very strong arguments there.

[@TruthUnites]

I addressed the story of Lazarus here; you cannot interpret the details of parables literally, and even if you could this is a conversation between two people in the afterlife, not a person on earth praying to Abraham. Tobit 12:15 says nothing about angels being the objects of prayer; it is similar to Origen's statement about the role of angels in the presentation of prayers before God. In short, these are not strong arguments. A strong argument would be if we had some indication of God's people in this world actually praying to saints or angels -- if not in Scripture, at least in early Christianity somewhere.

[@catkat740]

@@TruthUnitesOk, I can see how the different circumstances in the Lazarus story would weaken it as proof. I think Joe was taking the Tobit quote in its relation to Revelation 8:2-4.

[@melodysledgister2468]

Bravo, Gavin. 👏This needed to be addressed because too many people are listening to and believing these lies. “Never do we have people praying to anyone other than God.” Truth!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

His Catholic followers are absolutely lapping it up. Many of them are angry at Gavin and making nasty accusations. I'm pretty shocked at some of the animousity towards Gavin in his comments, when Gavin could not be more concilliatory.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@patriceagulu8315 I see no biblical examples of prayers for the dead in the OT, no.

[@rafaelsilveira5597]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 are you sure about that?

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@rafaelsilveira5597 Yes, I've read the bible cover to cover and have never seen the Jews praying for the dead, or to the dead. Even in Joe's arguments, he couldn't find that in his apocryphal texts either, or he would have been happy to provide it.

[@joeoleary9010]

While he was alive, Catholics used to come to Padre Pio and ask him to pray for them. Padre Pio would counsel them to pray to their guardian angel, who would then take the prayer to Padre Pio (who apparently existed in heaven while he was on earth?) , and then, apparently, Pio would pray to God for the requested intercession. Or perhaps it was the extended version: Pray to guardian angel, to pray to Pio, to pray to Mary, to pray to Jesus, to pray to God the Father, in hope that He would rubber-stamp the intercession. There are the byzantine lengths that prayer to the saints can evolve into.

[@glueckseligehoffnung3058]

Do you have a source for that, that Pater Pio said this?

[@joeoleary9010]

Google LEARN RELIGIONS SEND ME YOUR ANGEL ...........info is there

[@pamelalanehaun7156]

It seems crazy that believers would step around (God's gift) the Holy Spirit and plead to a mere mortal for help. To me, it's similar to God giving His commandments and the elders 'tweaking' it for Him.

[@HumanDignity10]

We don't sidestep the Holy Spirit. We cross ourselves at the begging of each prayer and say "In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." We also have longer, formal prayers to the Holy Spirit and include the Holy Spirit in our creed. We have the ability to both worship God and honor saints. Regarding "asking mere mortals for help", I do that all the time. Today I asked my husband to help me read some small numbers on a prescription because my eyesight is getting worse. It's hubris not to ask mere mortals for help.

[@MrWesford]

It’s crazy to think that God would use mere angels as messengers when he could just do it himself… wait.

[@pamelalanehaun7156]

@@HumanDignity10 Thank you, I appreciate that.

[@pamelalanehaun7156]

@MrWesford Thank you, I hadn't thought that far.

[@KnightFel]

@@MrWesfordthey are messengers, not objects of prayer, which is worship.

[@nicholas_willey]

Gavin, Catholic here who really appreciates your content and the approach to discussions that you model! I’m also a fan of Joe’s and looking forward to his response to this since you seem to be correct in your reading of Origen and I’m interested to see how he explains his reading. One criticism I would offer here is that I think you go overboard in your claims of misrepresentation in a rather unhelpful way. To take just one example - Joe addressed your pagan origins of Marian devotion comment - and then you took issue with that and said it wasn’t even the focus of your video. From a Catholic perspective though, it’s really problematic that you would throw that claim out there and then not bother to try and back it up. We hear that thrown at us a lot, and I think that Joe felt (rightly) that your viewers would likely just accept that idea uncritically. As an aside, I would love to see a dialogue between you two in the future on Mary - I really enjoyed the ones you had on Church History and the Papacy! Peace!

[@TruthUnites]

thanks for the comment! I think its fair to respond to the concern of pagan influence, but not AS THOUGH I had developed an argument for it, and making it the framing of the whole response

[@rybojames4111]

You are very gracious to those who attack you and misrepresent you. In my opinion, it is because your arguments and videos are very honest, clear, and effective.

[@TheNinjaInConverse]

I enjoy listening to these topics while working at home

[@christusenciaga]

You should adopt Trent Horn’s rebuttal rule. I haven’t gotten into your rebuttal yet but I have a feeling it’s going to get confusing with you rebutting his rebuttal of you 😅

[@libatonvhs]

Great response

[@ProfYaffle]

Nicely done

[@govitman]

Dr. Ortlund...I have noticed a more aggressive tone toward u among Catholics u have dialogued with in the past such as Joe. The foundation of ur efforts is to seek and spread the truth of the gospel. The foundation of the effort of Catholics is to support the Catholic church, which results in a form od disingenuousness, whether consciously or unconsciously. I understand u may disagree with me given ur comments about acccusing someone of being disingenuous. But the reality is, the more effective u r at spreading the truth of the gospel and revealing errors of the Catholic church, the more aggressive (and potentially disingenuous) the responses will be. U r doing a fantastic job and u r a true blessing to so many. Don't be discouraged. Keep up the fight. U r making an impact on the lives and salvation of so many. U r in my prayers.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

These Catholics apologists aren't concerned about the truth. They're loyal to church than God.

[@deannajimenez397]

Don't judge all Catholics just on the basis of a few. Also, be aware some so called Catholic KZbin channels are not exactly Catholic as they claimed to be. I am not a fan of Michael Lofton at all. He can't even have a civil discourse with other Catholics who disagree with his own claims. Honestly I would love to see a debate with Dr Ortlund and Brother Dimond who is a sedevacantist. That would be really interesting!!

[@dman7668]

I think that Gavin Ortlund is growing in popularity right now hence the more aggressive response from Catholic apologists. Trent Horn himself has experienced the same sort of tone

[@HumanDignity10]

Perhaps the more aggressive tone is the result of Gavin claiming that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians adopted pagan and gnostic practices. Such scandalous and offensive claims deserve scrutiny and serious responses

[@raphaelfeneje486]

@@HumanDignity10 They're hostile to him but can't refute his position. I see. You also are emotional. Refute his position then. Was he lying or not?? I hate it when people are loyal to traditions than they're loyal to God. You're the Pharisees that Jesus was talking to when he said they made the word of God of no effect by holding to their man made doctrine. Are your doctrine what the early Christians practiced or not?? "Those scandalous and offensive claims deserve scrutiny and serious response." Where are the responses that are serious?? Just ad hominems and misrepresentations. The Roman Catholics has not foundation to stand on. The church history goes against them

[@didaskohistory]

I am so sorry you are faced with these insults, Gavin. As many have commented below, your response is Christ-like and incredibly humble. You are a wonderful example of how we as Christians should respond to unfair criticism and insult. Will be praying!

[@joeoleary9010]

And we have a new 1 hour and 20-minute video from Joe H. where he doubles down on saying Gavin is wrong.

[@didaskohistory]

I personally have no problem if Joe disagrees - that is his right to do so. However, when someone twists the words of another or falsifies their arguments, that is where I draw the line. Christians are held to a much higher standard than that. @@joeoleary9010

[@joeoleary9010]

@@didaskohistory I have no problem with the Catholic position either. I'm with you on being against word twisting, whoever does it.

[@didaskohistory]

Exactly! It is a shame to see that within Christian circles. @@joeoleary9010

[@joeoleary9010]

Catholic apologetics is really a mess. I've been following all the major professional Catholic apologists since I began re-examining the church I grew up in but didn't know much about. After a great deal of research, I've found that many of them are very disingenuous about the facts when they present Catholic teachings and history. These apologists use a lot of clever arguments and appeals to authority (Matt 16:18 is key to all their arguments), and often a great deal of doublespeak. For example, just yesterday I saw a video where a Catholic apologist, a priest no less, declared that confession to a priest isn't necessary for the forgiveness of sins, because "God can do anything." This view is nowhere found in Catholic teaching and is in fact directly contradicted by the official RCC catechism. These Catholic apologists will never admit the church was wrong about anything but will bend and stretch what good faith Christians like Gavin might say and declare it error. Never believe any apologist -- always do your own research.

[@lellachu1682]

Actually, the priest was correct, as confession is not required for the forgiveness of venial sins. It's mortal sins, that dull our minds and blind us to the Truth, which must be confessed through a priest.

[@ninalove6277]

Um. Ok, something is bothering me about one of the Origen quotes discussed in the video… and it’s concerning salvation. At around minute 24, the quote shown says, “for they see demons warring and fighting most keenly against the salvation of those who devote themselves to God,” ……. Um… does this mean Origen believed salvation could be lost? 😳

[@Drew-uh9oz]

Your voice sounds so much deeper than usual Gavin !!

[@morghe321]

I noticed that as well. 😃

[@TruthUnites]

yeah something was up with my mic -- hopefully it will be better for the video I am about to record!

[@Drew-uh9oz]

@@TruthUnites I liked it haha, any spoilers or no?😅😅😤

[@TruthUnites]

@@Drew-uh9oz Ken Ham #2! Officially done and out wednesday. Mic appears inexplicably back to normal.

[@tigger55100]

Thank you Gavin for your videos and good information. I don’t understand all this hostility and anger and frustration to you regarding the researched material you provide and discuss. Your videos are a great educational source of information and I am grateful to God that you explain Christian beliefs and theology. I also love when you provide the sources and the books that you recommend to others to read and explore.

[@chrisazure1624]

I started studying Catholic accretions when I heard Michael Voris with Church Militant pray to "Queen of the Universe". I shudder at such language. In engaging in Catholics, it is apparent they have to engage in rhetoric rather than hermeneutics.

[@MrFisher210]

I watched a video from joe where he said that reformed theology did not acknowledge the Eucharist as a type of sacrifice, which was so false I told him that the reformers spoke of sacrifice but denied an oblation, he responded and I pointed him to Turretin and he would not respond when I asked him if he understood the difference no response, no acknowledgement of his violence to the truth

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Joe just released another video, "Proving that the Saints in Heaven Hear Our Prayer". I don't think he proves this, but it doesn't matter. Catholics will always pray to saints because their church tradition has taught it for a long time. It definitely wasn't taught from the beginning, or we would see some scriptural precedence for it, and we don't. We have a different understanding of who the prayers of the saints are that the angel releases, in Revelation. They are our prayers, the living saints, and the bible is always addressing the living Christians when it talks of saints. So protestants don't pray to saints, because we do believe in the foundation of the apostles and how they taught the church. They did not do or teach this practice. It became a practice several centuries after the church was established. It's a tradition, and one that we don't follow. Let all be blessed and do all to the glory of God and the benefit of those who struggle in this world.

[@townshendwhite9309]

Gavin, many in these comments laud the “good faith” discussion between you and your interlocutors. But swipes like the one Joe takes in his message really stick with me. “Gavin says…but *real* scholars say…” is remarkably dismissive of the time, money, and intellectual investment you’ve made into glorifying God as a scholar. It really rubs me the wrong way, and I just want to say that I am remarkably impressed with your charity. I know my own sin, and I know the cockiness I can conduct myself with when I feel misrepresented. I thank you for your example, and pray that the Lord continue to keep you from retaliation against these unnecessary insults.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

As iron sharpens iron. It was a backhand jab and I don't think Gavin is too stuck on himself that he can't handle cultivating an extra helping of humility. It doesn't look bad on Gavin, it looks bad on Joe when digs like that happen. I'm far more concerned w/ the Mary worship. Joe ignored the over the top Marian prayers that Gavin raised, because these are never a problem for Catholics. I looked up the Psalteries of the Blessed Virgin Mary, that Gavin mentioned in his first video on this (a year ago). I wish he had shown examples of some of these rewritten psalms to Mary, becasue they made the other prayers seem tame. It would have shown that the CAtholic excuse of only venerating her w/ hyper dulia is not the case. There is clear and open worship, and every attribute given to God is given to Mary in these blasphemous psalters.

[@jonatasmachado7217]

The doctrine of the intercession of the saints is as "late" as the doctrine of the Trinity or the canon. The truth is that it is a practice deeply rooted in the apostolic Churches, tested by centuries of persecution and martyrdom and by the real experience of the community of intercessory prayer between those Saints who have died and those who were about to be killed. It expresses a communitarian vision of the Church that death cannot destroy and that unites the militant Church with the triumphant Church in the Body of Christ. Intercessory prayer takes place in Christ, by Christ and through Christ, the one who opened the gates of heaven to us and, in the transfiguration, showed us something of the cloud of witnesses and of the assembly of faithful and perfected spirits to which we have access. In the end, everything comes from Christ and goes to Christ, we can never forget that. In Mary's case, it is possible and understandable that there are exaggerations here and there. Mary is Mother of God (of Jesus in whom the fullness of divinity dwells) and Mother of the Church, that is, of all who follow him. Who has never exaggerated when praising their mother?

[@danielcarriere1958]

Amen! Good summary.

[@KnightFel]

The difference is that the trinity is clearly expressed in the Bible. Prayer to the saints is not and is an accretion. Paul would lose his mind. Also theotokos really means “God-Bearer”, not mother of God. It was changed to mother of God later on. God-Bearer points to Christ and His humanity, it glorifies Christ, has nothing to do with Mary, at least not originally.

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

@28:36 Gavin is equivocating the use of the term "Prayer".

[@MrWoaaaaah]

In 'On Prayer', I think around chapter 10, Origen breaks down prayer into 4 different types, and some of these types of prayer he says can be directed to saints. Therefore, he supports prayers to saints. Where Origen says prayers should be to God alone, I think he's describing a certain type of prayer.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

It's not that simple. You can look up, "THE RECIPIENT OF PRAYER IN ITS FOUR MOODS" on bible hub, which also has 20 chapters of, Origen on Prayer, so you never miss full context. Origen starts out his Four Moods w/: Now request and intercession and thanksgiving, it is not out of place to offer even to men -- the two latter, intercession and thanksgiving, not only to saintly men but also to others. But request to saints alone, should some Paul or Peter appear, to benefit us by making us worthy to obtain the authority which has been given to them to forgive sins -- with this addition indeed that, even should a man not be a saint and we have wronged him, we are permitted our becoming conscious of our sin against him to make request even of such, that he extend pardon to us who have wronged him. So these other moods of prayer are in the entreat/implore sense of the word pray, and can be offered to what he deems as non saints, you and I if forgiveness needs to be entreated for. He also goes on to emphatically state, several times that prayer in its fullest sense of to a deity is only to God: "It remains, accordingly, to pray to God alone, the Father of All", and, "Just as the man who is scrupulous about prayer ought not to pray to one who himself prays but to the Father". So I don't think Origen left any doubt, or that he endorsed praying to saints, as we pray now to God.

[@alexs.5107]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 "Yes, Origen does believe in seeking the intercession of the saints. Where, in his writings, does he explicitly define prayer as entreaty/implore when directed towards the saints? It appears that this interpretation has been read into the text. Even if he did define it as entreaty, it would align with the Catholic perspective, particularly the prayer of supplication, which doesn't conflict with the Catholic position. By the way, we do entreat and implore God too and it s still prayer. You have introduced a false dichotomy to support the protestant stance bry restricting prayer to 'worship'. When Origen advises, 'Just as the person who is scrupulous about prayer should direct their prayers not to someone who prays but to the Father,' it seems to be more of a cautionary note rather than an absolute prohibition against praying to the saints, as Origen has expressed support for such practices elsewhere. Origen's concept of prayer is considerably broader than what some Protestants may acknowledge. The only way Origen's stance could align with the Protestant view is if one restricts prayer to solely mean 'worship,' which fundamentally contradicts Origen's understanding of prayer. Gavin appears to have misinterpreted this, and it would be appropriate for him to acknowledge this and apologize for accusing Joe of misrepresentation.

[@Welleher]

I like the new intro!

[@chriswilson203]

If intercession of saints is a doctrine share by all the ancient churches (Eastern Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental Orthodox & Assyrian Church of the East), that would seem to suggest something.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

If the bible clearly taught intercession of saints and Jesus or the apostles modeled it specifically for us, then I'd be sold. That would really be suggesting that it's endorsed. There's no hint. The ancient churches only practiced it later. As far as we can find, no earlier than 250 or so AD do we have documentation of it. It was probably later, but Catholics and Orthodox insist the Papyrus 270 w/ the Marian prayer has to be that early, so we'll go w/ that. Even though the scholar who studied the papyrus thinks it was more 4th to 5th century.

[@KnightFel]

Churches can err and persist in error especially when anathemas are tied.

[@TruthHasSpoken]

St. Augustine, who was there at Hippo and Carthage when the Church, Catholic Bishops meeting in snyods, decided (declared) the canon of scripture. The martyrs only know our prayers through the power of God, offerings made to God in the name of Peter, Paul (and those Saints who have died; Rev 5:8, 8:3) “As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food… *It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers.* But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).

[@ToeTag1968]

I would personally make a slight argument from silence regarding praying to saints and entreating Mary. There is just so little mention of Mary from the church fathers in the first few centuries - exactly the time when you would think her "star would be on the rise."

[@franceshaypenny8481]

You don't understand their hostility because you're a genuinely nice guy as well as very well informed. People who depend upon deception to keep doing what they're doing are often very hostile toward anyone who speaks the truth. Contrary to your channel name, lol - Truth also tends to expose the baddies among us, and it should.

[@morghe321]

And just let me add, he's not only a nice guy. Truth means everything to Gavin.

[@christusenciaga]

I see this kind of argument a lot from both Catholics and Protestants, but “you’re being hostile (upset, etc) so your position is wrong” is a non sequitur. People are also hostile when they hear what they perceive to be lies

[@michaelharrington6698]

Joe Heschemeyer was being hostile? If this is Gavins point, then I am totally unsympathetic.

[@somemedic8482]

@@michaelharrington6698of course intellectually honesty and common decency is something that people like you and Joe who are blinded by ideology cannot emulate.

[@HumanDignity10]

I might be one of the people Gavin is viewing as "hostile" because I wrote about how I have come to doubt Ortlund's work after I read the book "Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion" by Stephen Shoemaker, which is a book Gavin references in a previous video on the Assumption of Mary. I have read the entire book and I think Gavin misrepresents many things in that book and he cherry picked quotes to favor his view. I don't know if it was intentional, but it was quite upsetting for me to see how egregiously he misrepresented what is in that book. I have seen posts from Gavin where he invites people to question his scholarship, yet when they actually do it, he seems to get offended.

[@jordand5732]

Very nice as always.

[@jmferris542]

Thank you, this was very helpful. Setting the record straight on Origen's view of praying to anyone but God is so important to us all personally, historically, and also to reclaim Origen's legacy from this often repeated misrepresentation.

[@coreygardner59]

The problem is that we, as humans, who cannot see on the other side of veil, have to figure this stuff out on our own.

[@ClipPerry]

Mr. Ortlund, where to find text version for all of your video? I think I need to read it to have better understanding.

[@goldenspoon87]

Turn on CC

[@ClipPerry]

@@goldenspoon87 I'll find it's more effective for me to learn from an article.

[@catkat740]

9:36 But all Joe was saying here is that it’s not medieval. It’s early.

[@ewene2656]

I appreciate your desire to practice good faith with your interlocutors, but I would not give Joe a pass next time if he continues to misrepresent you and the historical data in future response videos. These apologists are all adults who have chosen to engage in these debates and who need to be held to the same high standard of research and preparation before they record these videos. They should not be let off the hook for poor scholarship, logical fallacies and bad faith arguments.

[@HumanDignity10]

Joe just put out a rebuttal video, I recommend it. He does a nice job of correcting Gavin’s errors about Origen, and showing that he did not misrepresent Gavin.

[@alanhowe1455]

It's not in the Bible, so...

[@bman5257]

Anglican scholar on the ubiquity of prayer to the saints in the 4th century: “I beg the reader to notice that these Fathers which have just been quoted represent every part of the then world. Nazianzen, Nyssen, Chrysostom, and Basil at Constantinople and in Asia Minor, Ambrose at Milan, Augustine on the African coast, Victricius at Rouen in France. Is it possible that all these should have at the same time invented a new practice, and taught it to the people, and yet that there should not be the least intimation on their parts that there was anything unusual in their teaching? And what, perhaps, is still more remarkable, no one was found to enter a protest, so far as we have any record, either in the East or West; and the one man that came the nearest to doing so, Vigilantius, was looked upon by the whole Church as a heretic for his denial of what was considered a doctrine of the faith. …Now we must most carefully remember the exceedingly conservative character of all the Fathers of the fourth century. It was the time of the Council of Nice and the years immediately succeeding it, and I think I cannot better set forth the unlikeliness of all these Fathers having simultaneously adopted and taught an unheard-of practice.” (Henry Percival, (Anglican) Invocation of the Saints, p. 169-170, 177)

[@franciscomelgoza2799]

They will not acknowledge this because it destroys their position without even having to argue about it.

[@jasonengwer8923]

There wasn't silence from the fourth century onward. See my earlier comments in this thread about sources before the fourth century who seem to have only prayed to God and sources from the fourth century onward who held that view. Vigilantius was a church leader, and Jerome acknowledged that other church leaders supported him. Matthew Dal Santo's book that I cited earlier and other sources I've cited refer to many patristic and medieval individuals who doubted the cult of the saints in various ways, including prayer to saints. Opposition to praying to saints persisted up to the time of the Reformation among some sources. It was widespread among the Waldensians, Lollards, and Hussites. The opposition to praying to saints and angels from the fourth century onward is much more substantial than the support for the practice before the fourth century. It's unreasonable to be unmoved by the lack of prayer to saints and angels prior to the fourth century, then expect other people to be so moved by an alleged lack of the opposite position for a shorter period of time afterward.

[@bman5257]

@@jasonengwer8923Who is the first Christian saint to explicitly say we can’t pray to the saints?

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Claiming there was no one but a lowly protestor for the practice, who the church conveniently labeled as a heretic, is a convenient argument. History belongs to the victors, as they say. There were many who contested the practice. Mostly they would be considered as heretics, and so discredited. Some were killed. Those who had repute, they are just ignored and since history belongs to the victors, it is just claimed there were no opponents. Those in high regard, like Origen, they just totally twist his words and pretend he agreed.

[@bman5257]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 “Who the Church conveniently labeled as a heretic.” So it’s not a heresy that we have prexistent souls, the Son and the Spirit are subordinate to the Son, everyone will be saved, and that there will be multiple Falls. LOL

[@dwayne1016]

Dr. Ortlund, Your videos have been encouraging to me as I ask tough questions. I would appreciate your prayers as I investigate these questions. My biggest one is probably about John 20:23. I think I have never heard a good Protestant perspective on this verse. Especially not one that relates to the Church Fathers. It seems to me that it used often for evidence for the neccesity of auricular confession and apostolic succession. Do you know any place I could find one? Thank you!

[@ottovonbaden6353]

Are you familiar with Jordan Cooper? He touches on this subject here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZKucn-NqqmebKM

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Are you struggling w/ whether your sins can be forgiven w/out a Catholic priest? Even priests will point to scriptures that say we can always confess to God and have our sins forgiven directly. One scripture on this doesn't negate all the others, many others that say "when we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

[@dwayne1016]

Yes I have been. I think youre right in saying there are verses about praying and asking God for forgiveness. But I thought Catholic doctrine says mortal sins need to be confessed to a priest to be absolved. I also dont understand how Protestant Churches interpret John 20:23 (its rarely brought up) and oppose Catholic claims to succession. This verse has been perhaps my main towards Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

[@dwayne1016]

I'm especially interested in seeing how its been interpreted in church history. Hope I havent bothered. Prayers would be appreciated.

[@dwayne1016]

Thank you for your charitable response brother! God bless!

[@newnew2112]

Hi Gavin. Thank you for these very helpful videos. Please consider doing videos on 1) sola fide 2) short overview video of main differences between protestants and catholics (letting us know what is most important out of these) 3) the five solas

[@Nonreligeousthiestic]

This isn't dirrectly to do with the video , I plan to watch it later, But in your opinion who is the leading protestant today? If I could make a suggestion, there is an elderly protestant church leader in the US who I love in christ named Chuck Swindol. My suggestion is perhaps you could make a positive video about protestants in adition to your videos advocating protestism. I don't know of any other 'man of God' that who is as relentless as Chuck Swindol in getting his heart right for God. So there is my suggestion. God bless you also Gavin for your heart, I was seriously considering Orthodox Christianity untill I found your videos.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I remember reading some Chuck Swindol books, decades ago. Some of the lessons really stayed w/ me. I didn't know he was still around.

[@maciejpieczula631]

It seems like a lot of this comes down to how the word 'prayer' is defined. Protestants seem to have a rather strict definition of the word 'prayer', where as Catholics have a much more elastic definition of the word.

[@Bbos2383]

Explain the difference please.

[@maciejpieczula631]

@Bbos2383 For Protestants, the word 'pray' is synonymous with, if not completely indentical to, worship. When Catholics and Othodox Christians say a 'prayer' to a saint or angel, they don't mean they are worshipping the saint or angel; rather, what they mean to say is that they are imploring or petitioning the saint or angel to 'pray' on their behalf i.e. intercession.

[@HumanDignity10]

Exactly. For Catholics and Orthodox, worship often looks quite different from what many Protestants do during their services.

[@Bbos2383]

@@maciejpieczula631 i completely reject your assertion that for protestants, praying and worshiping are identical. Prayer is communication with God and worship is praise and devotion. Very different concepts.

[@maciejpieczula631]

​@Bbos2383 so you don't pray to God?

[@afbriant]

I am trying to be a charitable as you towards catholic apologists but man I have tried to watch dozens of videos they put out and I am to the point that they are being disingenuous.

[@afbriant]

@patriceagulu8315 Incorrect.

[@joeoleary9010]

My interest in Catholic apologetics was sparked many years ago when I heard one of them on the radio. This guy obviously knew a great deal more than I did, so that got me to read all the major apologists. Something about their arguments didn't sit right with me, but I held out the possibility that I was wrong and they were right, and one day I would see they were right. That day never came.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I watched Joe's last reply on this, the whole hour and a half, and watched it twice. I've always wanted to know how Catholics justify praying to saints and esp. Mary. Even w/ the apocryphal scriptures of Macabees and Tobit, it still didn't make sense. Macabees is a dream and says a saint, or righteous departed man is praying for them. Tobit talks about angels and is said to back the scriptures in Revelation, where the angel is collecting the prayers of the saints as incense. The prayers of the saints are our prayers, as far as the bible ever states. It's an angel collecting them, not us praying to saints in heaven for wishes to be granted, or passed on to God.

[@afbriant]

@joeoleary9010 that's basically my experience. They are smart people but they always commit to really suspicious arguments that typically involve something like strawman or conflating unrelated theological issues and I just see it time and time again.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@joeoleary9010 I spent a lot of time w/ Catholic sources, and still do. Like watching Joe's channel, esp. this debate. I prayed, and was open to where ever the Lord led me. It's not that I think our side isn't a hot mess to, but I could not attest to the doctrines of the RCC. We don't have a choice either, esp. w/ Marian dogmas, we have to agree that we believe them all to be a member. I became more convinced from CAtholic sources, than getting info second hand from protestant ones, that there is major error accrued through the centuries.

[@joelv24]

Brilliant and well said !! God bless you Dr.Ortlund

[@natebozeman4510]

I'm so excited to see this response. I was watching his video the other day, and I was amazed at how often he misrepresented you and your arguments. I often watch the other side to see their arguments, and so often I find that the arguments themselves are incredibly weak, and it just seems like they are determined to defend their position no matter how weak the evidence is for it. My theory is often confirmed by what Catholics themselves say - they believe if Catholicism is false, then Christianity is false. Heschmeyer said something to that effect in this video - that the Protestant position on this matter makes Christianity as a whole unintelligible... which is such a bizarre take. But if we adopt a bad epistemological hermeneutic, we will inevitably end up with false conclusions and takes. That's just the nature of truth, thank the Lord.

[@franciscomelgoza2799]

In incredibly weak like all of the Church father's "arguments" for the real presence in the Eucharist?

[@natebozeman4510]

@@franciscomelgoza2799 Most Protestants hold to a form of real presence. They just don't hold to the specific mode of transubstantiation. Reformed Christians hold to a real spiritual presence, and Lutherans hold to God being "in, with, and under" the bread and wine, though they don't give any specific metaphysical mode for His presence, but they believe you truly take in Christ at the Eucharist. Many Protestants today do hold to a Zwinglian view, but that isn't what all Protestants believe, and you shouldn't be triumphalistic in assuming only Catholics affirm real presence or that that is necessarily the correct mode of real presence.

[@philagon]

@@franciscomelgoza2799No. Pay attention.

[@franciscomelgoza2799]

Yeah because Gavin's arguments are so astounding that they surpass that of the church fathers and and even the early reformers. Try reconciling Dr. Ortlund's Church with the didache. The earliest Christian document is overwhelmingly Catholic.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

That's because they see Catholicism as the epitome of Christianity. It IS Christianity, instead of being a branch of Christianity. Instead of being part of the church, they are THE church.

[@JW_______]

All fairly said and well argued, Gavin. Thank you!

[@lucarich8711]

Dude .... I love how much charity and grace you give to your debate opponents, but in this case I think it's unearned. I went and tried to watch his videos in which he "debunked" you, and it was hard, I didn't even get through the whole thing in either case. His attitude, tone, rhetoric, etc. all reek of the same energy and spirit that I remember eating up from atheists "debunking" Christianity and the bible (back when I was agnostic.). I thank God for your media ministry here on KZbin, I often share your videos with my wife. His comment section is filled with "pray the rosary for Gavin to convert" and other nonsense, but all I can think of is that we need to pray for the man as well. He may be a true Christian, idk, but the man clearly needs Jesus, as do we all. May our Lord have mercy on us all!

[@jonatasmachado7217]

“Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . ” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

[@TruthHasSpoken]

Exactly. St Augustine, too, who was there when the Bishops decided the canon of scripture in Hippo and Carthage. “As to our paying honor to the memory of the martyrs, and the accusation of Faustus, that we worship them instead of idols, I should not care to answer such a charge, were it not for the sake of showing how Faustus, in his desire to cast reproach on us, has overstepped the Manichaean inventions, and has fallen heedlessly into a popular notion found in Pagan poetry, although he is so anxious to be distinguished from the Pagans. For in saying that we have turned the idols into martyrs, be speaks of our worshipping them with similar rites, and appeasing the shades of the departed with wine and food…It is true that Christians pay religious honor to the memory of the martyrs, both to excite us to imitate them and to obtain a share in their merits, and the assistance of their prayers. But we build altars not to any martyr, but to the God of martyrs, although it is to the memory of the martyrs. No one officiating at the altar in the saints’ burying-place ever says, We bring an offering to thee, O Peter! or O Paul! or O Cyprian! The offering is made to God, who gave the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned. The emotion is increased by the associations of the place, and. love is excited both towards those who are our examples, and towards Him by whose help we may follow such examples. We regard the martyrs with the same affectionate intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life, when we know that their hearts are prepared to endure the same suffering for the truth of the gospel. There is more devotion in our feeling towards the martyrs, because we know that their conflict is over; and we can speak with greater confidence in praise of those already victors in heaven, than of those still combating here.” Augustine, Against Faustus, 20:21 (A.D. 400).

[@jennyohanlon5380]

I love how respectful and charitable you guys are, you guys set a great example of how these conversations should play out. Having said that, Joe nailed it 🎉 come home Gavin ❤

[@joeoleary9010]

If only Catholics like yourself could see how patronizing and arrogant such remarks are, and moreover, how they confirm the criticism that Catholics make their church an idol.

[@laurenatkinson1892]

YAS 🙏🙏🙏

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Joe made a big show of being charitable at the beginning of his last rebuttal. Then he took the gloves off and made Gavin look like a self contradicting fool who should be discredited, w/ his blue shirt vs. green shirt Gavin comparisons. Joe is responding just recently to a video Gavin made a full year ago, and is exploiting that.

[@laurenatkinson1892]

@saintejeannedarc9460 Joe being incredibly charitable! He is pointing out contradictions, which WAY more kind than saying nothing and letting someone walk around believing they have done/said no wrong. "Better are wounds from a friend than the deceitful kisses of an enemy."

[@danielcarriere1958]

5:42 Why would a Roman Catholic historian make any kind of judgement on how good or bad Eucharistic devotion was? Can you provide a quote from one? And are they claiming that all Eucharistic devotion at that time was bad? And in what way was it bad? You mention the bread and the wine - so they are talking about the practice of only providing communion under one species? How is that an example of an excess? Catholics continue this practice to this day. And with regard to frequency, Catholics are only required to receive communion once a year, even today! And you mentioned superstition - what superstition? Then, for some reason, you say this totally misses the point - that there are these prayers that go too far. This is perplexing, because it seems that this shows you didn't actually listen to Joe's video. Because that was not his response to your point at all. He compares some of these prayers that use excessively flowery language to love letters. And that we are not to just compare the poetic language like they display to actual statements of theology. You seem to miss this point altogether. And yes, this is a little bit of a concession in this point, that some of the language goes to far. But that there are some excesses does not negate or invalidate any of the other legitimate prayers to Mary. You are pointing at the exceptions and making them the rule. Then using this as a cudgel to beat Catholics over the head with about not praying to the saints.

[@christusenciaga]

I’m lol’ing at the facial expressions in your thumbnail

[@bethl]

IMHO, either Joe is deliberately slanting (misrepresenting/lying about) Gavin’s position, or he is incompetent to discern detailed arguments.

[@MarquesGoetsch]

Do you believe there is a substantive difference between asking my wife/Christian brother to pray for me and Praying to God? Would you grant to the Catholics that same distinction between asking the saints’ to pray for them and Prayers to God?

[@HumanDignity10]

Have you watched Joe’s videos?

[@MrSeedi76]

As a theologian myself I haven't yet even made up my mind about whether to believe in an immortal soul that flies to heaven or hell after death or to believe in a bodily resurrection at the end of days. I'd say the bodily resurrection and then the judgment seems closer to the biblical worldview. That means, no one except Jesus and the heavenly host are currently "in heaven". No saints, no Mary, nobody else. And hell is equally empty as would be purgatory, if there is one. Jesus is the first and so far the only resurrected person. All the rest of the dead are currently sleeping a dreamless sleep.

[@Jim-Mc]

I did not think these were mutually exclusive. The spirit awaits the New Creation and Resurrection in Heaven, with the Saints and Christ.

[@alanhowe1455]

What about the thief/criminal on the cross to whom Jesus said: “Assuredly, I say to you, *today* you will be with Me in Paradise”? (Luke 23:43 NKJV, my emphasis)

[@cephasmwila7537]

Good job Galvin... One believes in soul sleep

[@geordiewishart1683]

Jesus Christ hung dying, He told a convicted criminal being crucified with Him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). Many people think Jesus assured the man he would go to heaven with Him that very day. But is this really what He meant? The placement of the comma after "you" and before "today" would certainly seem to indicate this. However, notice how an entirely different meaning is conveyed if the comma is placed after "today" rather than before: "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." No punctuation in the original Bible texts We need to first understand that original texts of the Bible (Greek for the New Testament and Hebrew and some Aramaic for the Old Testament) used no punctuation. As Dr. E.W. Bullinger explains in The Companion Bible: "None of our modern marks of punctuation are found [in Bible texts] until the ninth century...The punctuation of all modern editions of the Greek text, and of all versions made from it, rests entirely on human authority, and has no weight whatever in determining or even influencing the interpretation of a single passage" (1990, Appendix 94, p. 136, emphasis in original). In most cases translators and publishers of the Bible have done an admirable job using punctuation to clarify the meaning of the Scriptures. But this is one case where their doctrinal bias has regrettably obscured the meaning of Christ's words. By placing a comma before "today" in Christ's statement to the dying man rather than after it, they have Jesus saying something He never intended. We know this because the Bible clearly says Jesus Himself did not go to paradise or heaven on the day He died! Instead He died and was buried in the grave. Notice the apostle Paul's clear statement in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures." Notice what Christ told Mary soon after He had been resurrected: "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father" (John 20:17). A full three days after His death, Jesus Himself clearly said that He had not yet ascended to heaven. Jesus had earlier plainly said that He would lie in the grave for three days and three nights (Matthew 12:40). The Scriptures nowhere say that His body was buried while His soul went elsewhere. Jesus died and was buried. He went only to the grave. Therefore the dying criminal could not have been with Jesus in heaven that day, because Jesus Himself did not go there then. If Jesus was not telling the man he would be in heaven or paradise on that day, what was He telling him? Future Kingdom and paradise on earth A fundamental principle for sound Bible study is to carefully check the context. Notice the specific wording of the man's request: "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom" (Luke 23:42). Notice that the thief expressed no expectation of immediately going to heaven with Jesus at the moment they died. He may have already known something about the nature of the Kingdom of God-that it would be a literal kingdom to be established on earth by the Messiah, which many Jews of that day understood. Jesus Himself had previously given an entire parable "because they thought that the kingdom of God would immediately appear" (Luke 19:11). Jesus also taught His disciples to pray, "Your kingdom come" (Luke 11:2). This Kingdom, as explained in our free booklet The Gospel of the Kingdom, is the Kingdom that Jesus will establish on earth at His return, not a location in heaven to which we go when we die. Notice also Jesus' response to the man, telling him, "...you will be with Me in Paradise." Understanding the nature of the biblical use of the term paradise is crucial to understanding this passage. The Greek word here translated "paradise," paradeisos, means an enclosed garden or park. In the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Old Testament in common use at the time of Christ, this same word was used in references to the Garden of Eden. Besides its occurrence in Luke 23:43, the word is used only two other times in the New Testament. In both cases it refers to the place of God's presence. In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul describes a vision in which he "was caught up into Paradise." Paul says this paradise was in "the third heaven"-the dwelling place of God. Jesus tells us that "the tree of life" is located "in the midst of the Paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7). Revelation 22:2 explains that the tree of life is to be in the New Jerusalem. God will come from heaven with this New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2-3) after the resurrections of the dead mentioned in Revelation 20. Only at that time will men dwell with God in this paradise. Furthermore, the restoration of the land of Israel that will take place under the coming reign of Christ is compared in Isaiah 51:3 to the Garden of Eden-again, paradeisos in the Septuagint. Putting together all these scriptures, we can see that the paradise Christ mentioned, in which men will dwell with God in His Kingdom, is to be at a future time. How do we know this was Christ's meaning? Again, as noted above, Jesus plainly said He was going to be dead and buried for the following three days and nights, after which He clearly told Mary that He had not yet ascended to heaven. Some theologians and religious denominations try to redefine Christ's use of paradise to say that this referred to where the righteous dead went before Jesus came-a sort of temporary "holding place" next to hell because heaven wasn't available to them until Christ ascended to heaven after His death and opened the way for them to follow. This concept, however, is straight out of pagan Greek mythology about life after death (the Elysian Fields as the section of the Greek underworld for good people) and not something taught in the Bible. The idea that the righteous dead of Old Testament times went to a place called "paradise" and later ascended to heaven after Jesus was resurrected is disproved by the apostle Peter's plain statements in Acts 2:29 and 34-almost two months after Christ's death and resurrection -that King David "is both dead and buried" and "David did not ascend into the heavens." Putting together the relevant scriptures, we can see here the truth of the matter. The robber, facing imminent death while being crucified alongside Jesus (Luke 23:39-41), sought comfort and assurance. Jesus provided it, telling the man, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." The "Paradise" of which Jesus spoke wasn't heaven, but the Eden-like world to which the man would be resurrected according to God's plan-as touched on later in this booklet.

[@johnnybravo19871]

In old Testament, death would result in a soul sleep. But once you are in Christ, even if you die you will not enter such a sleep, but will be with Jesus in in spiritual form. In below passage Martha believes that Lazarus will resurrect on the last day. But Jesus is correcting her by saying that he will NEVER die. 24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

[@maxkosterlitzky6597]

I have a question, I am not sure if this has been asked before though. What would your response be to certain miracles which have occured from Saintly intercession? Many of the miracles of the medieval era were attributed to intercessory prayer to a saint, so how should we view those? What was the source or cause of the miracles? How should we view them historically?

[@joekey8464]

They do not believe in miracles and Marian apparitions, obviously since it only occurs in the Catholic church.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@joekey8464 We absolutely do believe in miracles and they still happen today.

[@joekey8464]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 Then that's great, but how do you scrutinize a miracle, to know if it is true.

[@timrosen1618]

Funny thing, the “Church fathers” quoted in the video are not in the scriptures.