Does Devotion to Mary Draw Us Away from Jesus?

Does praying to Mary and the Saints draw you away from, or towards, Jesus? Dr. Gavin Ortlund claims that Medieval Catholics' prayers to Mary prove that they viewed Jesus as far off, and thus needed to appeal to Mary and the Saints. But what do actual Medieval historians - and the writings of the Medieval Catholics themselves - have to say on the subject?
CHECK OUT MY NEW BOOK
www.amazon.com/Eucharist-Real...
Chapters
0:00 - Intro
0:12 - overview
4:28 - Starting Framework
10:33 - Gavin's Objections
13:06 - The Stereotype effect
21:29 - Interpretation notes
28:19 - Response to Gavin
30:05 - Medieval Christo-centrism
46:11 - Intercession effects
50:15 - Can the Saints Saves us
57:20 - Nice Saints, Mean God?

[@Anthony-fk2zu]

My fellow Catholics, let’s pray a Hail Mary for Gavin Ortland’s conversion.

[@essafats5728]

🙏Amen🙏

[@harleymann2086]

I feel that Gavin is not as authentic as he wishes to present himself. Pray for him, absolutely; but, he requires a “pure heart” to listen to the Catholic Church and not present himself as authentic.

[@SonOfThineHandmaid]

​@@bersules8pretty passive aggressive way to pray for someone

[@carlosux]

he gets so close sometimes. i really respect him for being able to defend his faith along with being generous

[@Spiritof76Catholic]

@@carlosuxI don’t think he’s being generous with his soft spoken manner. Notice he’s always right and Catholicism is always wrong.

[@bejamen14]

I love how the the Gavin Ortlund vs Catholic apologist lore is always growing. Has been so great in helping me consider Catholicism seriously for the first time

[@jackdaw6359]

I may not be a big fan of Ortlund but I am glad he engages us.

[@Baraodojaguary]

Return home Brother join us

[@J-PLeigh8409]

Hopefully Ortlund continues to engage Catholicism & in so doing bring former Catholics home, & also Protestants to convert to the fullness & beauty of the holy faith of Catholic Christendom

[@rhwinner]

God bless you in your journey. ❤

[@robertotapia8086]

Let us Pray for @Dr Gavin Ortlund hope he truly watches and listens to this video by @Joe Heschmeyer may the Holy Spirit open the eyes of his heart and mind to understand the Love we have for Mama Maria, the saints and all about our Catholic faith Amen.

[@MrsYasha1984]

I'm very sure the prayers of a saint, 1700years buried, led to my conversion. The crypt where she is bruried is very close to my home, and one time life got so heavy I just could not bear it anymore. I fled into the crypt and prayed: 'I don't know if you're there or not. But if you are... help us!' I was agnostic for 20years, I would not have gone to God directly. But she was more aproachable to me and her crypt was always very calming to me, like a sanctuary. After the medical emergencies in the family were dealt with, a thought popped up in my head, again and again. 'Look into the Church. You need help! Talk to the priest!' At first I dismissed that. But it was quite persistent. So after 2 months I did go talk to the priest, became a sobbing mess after he told me that God never turned away from me, and kind of fell head over heels back into religious life. Now the children are baptised and I got the sacrament of marriage after 17years of legal marriage. Just waiting for my husband to make his leap of faith. My prayer to a saint led to a saint praying for me. She calmed me down, took my soul by the hand and led me to Jesus. Without her, I never would have come back! Btw, tomorrow is her feast day! Heilige Verena, bete für uns! I don't know Theology or the Church fathers like Gavin does. He would shred me in a debate, I'm sure. But I experienced the prayers of the saints in such a personal way, I just know the Church has it right on this. Sorry for the long post, this topic in conjunction with her feast day got me a bit emotional😊

[@rhwinner]

Wonderful story! So glad you shared it for all to read. ❤

[@mikethemonsta15]

God bless you! Thank you so much for sharing!

[@GumbyJumpOff]

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing. God is good. Please pray for me, I am so far from God running my life into the ground. I struggle so much to come back to Him and have hope and not anxiety and scrupulosity. I need to make it to confession. I plan on going Saturday morning. God of mercies, have mercy on me and all Your children. Sorry to divert from your more relevant and great post, I just haven't been asking for help or prayers and it's easier to do so online. Thanks fam. Peace and God bless.

[@MrsYasha1984]

My story is not more relevant... I'm already home and more at peace than I ever was in my life. Your story seems to be still going. I'll pray for you! Take care of yourself, please do go to confession. And do ask the saints for help. I'm far from an expert in this, but for fatherly guidance is St. Joseph always amazing! Perhaps St. Augustine for the scrupulosity. Let them help you, guide you back to God. We are all sinners. We all messed up... I shudder to think where I was, just 2years ago. We all need Gods love, guidance, and most of all, his mercy! Without it, we are all screwed. So don't give up! You'll find God, and you'll be amazed how much He loves you!

[@jeremias-serus]

Awesome post. Thanks so much for sharing

[@st.saturninia9179]

Around 45 minutes… serious conviction and consolation for the day and age we westerners live in. The last year I was a non denom, I was in despair believing it’s impossible for anyone to be a true Christian in America. Too much greed, individualism and lust. Then our Lord led me into the Catholic Church. I’m testifying here, for anyone seeking, you will not be disappointed in the abundance of the One, Holy and Apostolic Church!

[@Sevenspent]

Indeed. Romans 5 20-21 "The law entered in so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[@gnomeresearch1666]

Whenever Gavin questions some aspect of the Faith, I always grow closer in love of Christ and my love for His Church.

[@From_Protestant_to_Christian]

God uses Gavin's lies for good.

[@calebnwafor2549]

​@@From_Protestant_to_Christian Ignorance not lie.

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace//'

[@haronsmith8974]

@@lufhopespeacefully2037 Trinity is describing the relationship of Christ with God in the bible.

[@peterzinya1]

@@From_Protestant_to_Christian There is no queen of heaven. Thats nothing but a cruel catholic joke.

[@Michelle_Picket12]

As a former LCMS Lutheran , now catholic, I had personally believed (due to what is written/said in the Augsburg confession) that the saints in heaven were praying for us, but to what knowledge the Saints in heaven have - I did not pretend to know. This was one of the reasons for my conversion to the Catholic Church. ❤️

[@ThruTheUnknown]

Yeah I found it fascinating that Gavin said we should honor the Saints, but that is just begging the question to be asked in what way and how? Especially given the fact about theosis which I saw as protestant in the bible but did not know what to do with it as to my denomination and many protestant denominations it would be seen as controversial, but even if you're a protestant denomination that acknowledges theosis how do you treat the Saints that become elohim by God's grace? Jacob bowed to Esau, kings are bowed down to, so what about a Saint, or even Mary the Mother of God who is greater than them all?

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@ThruTheUnknown]

@@lufhopespeacefully2037 There's many theological topics that arent specifically in the bible. Christ Victus Atonement isnt the bible nor PSA or the ransom theory but one of these models has to be what atonement is all about etc.

[@calebjushua9252]

🚨Praying to a saint is not a doctrine of Jesus Christ.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

@@calebjushua9252 Jesus talked with Elijah and Moses. But can i converse with Enoch or ask Elijah to come and bring the Messiah? As these two Saints never died.

[@rightinthedome9973]

My friend prayed for the intercession of St Jude everyday for my conversion for the better part of a decade. God answered his prayers and appeared to me and I believed. Praise be to God

[@mikelopez8564]

Your friend knew what he was doing. If you’ve never heard of actor Danny Thomas’ prayer to St Jude you should look it up.

[@TriciaPerry-ef7bi]

I Am sure it was a demon. God didn't tell man to pray to deceased people to intervene or intercede for anyone. Catholicas praying to Mary is paganism and not of Christ. Also WHY ARE ALL THE POPES from Rome? Why not the middle east? Where the HOLY GHOST first fell? All the way across the globe. The Garden of Eden is even a middle eastern location. Yet the Main people who were Catholic. King Henry I -VIII were all Catholic. Where were they located? England, European countries.. They will definitely deceive you all forever their lies. NOTICE how Paul and those Apostles traveled to ROME. THEY DIDN'T START THERE. they came there and WITH THE GOSPEL European were CAUCASIAN. What was the nationality of MARY AND JOSEPH?? . THEY were never Caucasian. Abraham and KING DAVID. WERE NOT CAUCASIANS. neither was the Ethiopian who was baptized by Phillip.. ..Greeks Persian and not from Europe...

[@calebjushua9252]

🚨It is not Jesus Christ's doctrine to pray to a saint.

[@rightinthedome9973]

@@calebjushua9252 get your protestant nonsense out of here.

[@rightinthedome9973]

@@calebjushua9252 what you should be saying is thanks be to God another soul saved

[@rhwinner]

Jesus is not in competition with His Saints. We are all one family of God. Loving our brothers and sisters in Christ does not detract from love of God. Rather, Jesus makes clear that we cannot love God _unless_ we love our neighbor. THE Saints are our neighbors, and so we are in loving communion with them, with our fellow Christians on earth and with God. It's not just about you and God.😉 Welcome to the family!

[@bibleman8010]

The Vine and its Branches

[@brycevictoria1619]

Yes, like the saints were not saints on their own. They trusted God and lived hard lives and they help us see how we can follow him too. I love the saints 🥰

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@hettinga359]

None of the biblical passages cited about intercessory prayer involve asking someone who is not present on earth for their prayers. To say that the saints in heaven are in spiritual communion with us is one thing. It’s another thing to say that they are omniscient such that we have a direct line of communication with them and they can hear all of our requests at once. That’s assuming an awful lot. I realize that that issue may be outside the scope of this particular video and may be addressed in the future but to me it represents the biggest problem with prayers to the saints

[@rhwinner]

@@hettinga359 Hi, thanks for the thoughtful response. Would you admit the souls in heaven could love those on earth? Taking into account Paul's admonition that death cannot separate us from God's love. There is after all only one Love, and that is the Love we are commanded to have for one another. John 15: 'As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love....My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.' It is that love that death has no power over.

[@jessebrennan7130]

Thank you, brother Joe. You have just OBLITERATED one of my hang-ups I have about Catholicism (an aspect I didn't understand). As I commented on one of your other videos, I came across your videos because I am greatly considering converting to Catholicism. You just brought me so much closer to doing so. I now understand and agree.

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

That's wonderful! I'm just thrilled to hear this. If it would help you, please feel free to reach out to [e-mail] if you've got personal questions that you could use some help with! And you can mention me by name, and they'll send it along.

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@Metanoia000]

⁠@@lufhopespeacefully2037it is. Genesis 1:26 “Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals and over all the creatures that move alone the ground.”

[@avarmadillo]

I'm praying for you. Don't be blinded by one of the worst Popes in history. Look at the everlasting and enduring doctrine of the Magisterium.

[@charlesudoh6034]

Videos like this remind me of why I converted to the Catholic Church. Catholicism makes so much sense of everything. Almost like puzzle pieces just fitting and clicking together in every area. Such a beautiful and well-presented video of the truth of Catholicism. Weldone Joe.

[@TriciaPerry-ef7bi]

It makes human sense but God doesn't use human reasoning to talk to man as a primary communication. It is spiritual sense. A regenerate mind Born AGAIN SUPERNATURALLY FROM above. They are DEFINITELY DECEIVED men in this video and Catholic Church are the biggest balogna Satan invented to mimic Christianity

[@andrewscotteames4718]

I would like to see you flesh out the idea that salvation is not merely vertical and personal, but horizontal and communal as the love of God intersects with the love of neighbor. I think this is a major area of confusion for Protestants, especially evangelicals, who see the church as a social tool rather than as the primary means God uses to dispense his grace. Good stuff so far. I love your channel and it has been really helpful to me as a Protestant moving towards Catholicism.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

St Macarius of Egypt said we cannot be saved without our neighbour as it is stated in the our Father forgive us our transgressions as we forgive those who have sinned against us. If you have a problem with your fellow brother go leave your gift at the altar and make amends Jesus separated the goats and sheep according to what was done to the stranger in need. Love God with all your heart mind and soul and love your neighbour as yourself. Who is your neighbour? Answer: even your archenemy the samaritan. Whoever says they love God but hate their brother is a liar. Confess your sins to one and other. God wants us to save each other as much as he wants to save us. Believing wives may *save* their unbelieving husbands Paul even says.

[@calebjushua9252]

🚨The Scripture does not support your stand about salvation. 🚨Salvation is not dependent on how we treat others. It's another way around. Our good works are dependent on the grace of salvation. 🕵️Good works are byproducts of salvation.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

@@calebjushua9252 That is a just say so argument. Then it is God who damns one to hell and he torments us for not saving us and giving us the grace to truly repent even after we believe 🙀

[@calebjushua9252]

@@ThruTheUnknown 🕵️Repentance is a change of mind (from evil to God). It is a cognitive effort and can never be categorized as good work in compliance with the Law of Moses. 🕵️Salvation takes into effect when a person establishes true faith, and repentance takes place within the premise of faith.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

@@calebjushua9252 So repentance is a bad work?

[@CBlackartist]

The Saints ADD to God's glory...It pleases God that we honor him by honoring his saints.

[@JoshN91]

This last Saturday my wife and I got into a discussion on the Marian Apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe with our Reformed Protestant family member. Her argument was it could be demonic and could be Satan trying to pull the focus away from Christ to Mary. We went through the historical arguments of how millions converted to Catholicism because of it. We also went through the “Queen of Heaven” arguments and how we see positions held in the Dividic Kingdom being fulfilled in the church today (I used the Isaiah 22 argument). Then the NEXT day the readings were from Isaiah 22 and Matthew. I laughed and thanked God because that wasn’t a coincidence. Now Thursday is upon us and what is the topic for today?! God is good and the Holy Spirit is moving! Haha Thanks Joe! Had I not been working late every night I was hoping to call into Catholic answers about this! On a side note thanks for sending me a copy of Pope Peter! It was a huge help! Edit: My wife started to bring up the point about the mass and our union with Christ at every mass, but something happen that distracted us and she didn’t get to finish it. Great to hear you make the same point!

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

One thing worth noting is that you should also let our protestant brothers and sisters know that the supposed claims of Marian apparitions that the church accepts , doesn't mean we even have to. The church gives us the liberty to accept them or not

[@JoshN91]

@@Compulsive-Elk7103That was my first comment. 😂 I thought she was going to bring up a controversial one when she first brought it up. My wife is from Mexico and has a devotion to Our Lady so that’s why we went further with the conversation.

[@michaeltrumaunt]

Ah that is the very nice thing about Catholicism I remember the same readings and the one about Peter and the keys connects us all quite beautiful to know you had such a beautiful experience while I was hearing the same message have a good day God Bless

[@mikekayanderson408]

Peter was never a pope. Fiction of Catholic imagination. You have twisted that scripture as well. The rock the church is built on is Christ.

[@JoshN91]

@@mikekayanderson408 I have a great book recommendation. :) lol

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Just as many in the early Church sought the mediation and intercession of mere human beings like Peter and Paul and their prayers and shadow and handkerchiefs, so too even now, for NOT EVEN DEATH CAN SEPARATE US! Especially the Mother of God, she who moved her Son and Lord to perform His public miracle, even though it was not yet His hour, touched by His Mother's compassion for the wedding couple, as the prayers of a righteous person have great power in it's effects! The false teachings of Gavin Ortlund, have made me a stronger Catholic Christian! Gavin is in my prayers as he journeys toward Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@Wgaither1]

Why didn’t Mary’s intercession stop Covid 19? I thought her prayers are so powerful? Guess you were wrong

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@@lufhopespeacefully2037 You mean someone other than God is Lord of the Sabbath and Greater than the Temple and the Author of Life? Peace

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

@@matthewbroderick6287 ,yeap,iam muslim,but let us discuss friendly,how often has bible been revised

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@@lufhopespeacefully2037 I agree, let's talk peacefully! Again, do you believe someone other than God is Lord of the Sabbath and Greater than the Temple and the Author of Life? Peace

[@tonyl3762]

Did Ortlund leave out Rylands Papyrus 470, the Catholic prayer to Mary dated to c. 250 AD?? Sure, hard to confirm whether a Church approved prayer, but the sheer ancientness and Catholicity of the prayer makes it significant! It can't help but be a stumbling block for those who think Marian devotion and intercession was a very late "accretion." Will this prayer make an appearance in the next video in this series? Austin Suggs of Gospel Simplicity was unaware of this very ancient prayer and may have been intrigued when I brought it to his attention.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

You don't think 250 AD is an accretion?

[@tonyl3762]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 Non-Catholics have all sorts wild ideas about when Catholic doctrines were "created" in history. Some point to Middle/Medieval Ages. Some point to Constantine. So 250 AD cannot be an accretion for such non-Catholics who believe Catholicism was born so late in history. Only the most radical of "restorationists" like Mormons or SDAs or historically-minded Protestants will explicitly claim the Church became corrupt and Catholic before Constantine. But we can find very elevated language about Mary going back even further back into the 2nd century. Not to mention 1st century Scripture prophesying all generations will call Mary blessed and depicting Mary bodily and crowned in heaven.

[@tonyl3762]

@@LiliGoof-gh4ch Great point. Especially since there are only so many writings that are going to survive from the 1st and 2nd century (even biblical manuscripts or fragments). Papyrus 470 is older than any complete Bible, I believe.

[@HumanDignity10]

Wow, I hadn't heard of this prayer before and I just looked it up. Thank you!

[@matthewwalker8462]

It did make an appearance in the next video and Joe's comments on accretions vs catholicity regarding it were very helpful.

[@jd3jefferson556]

We seek refuge beneath the protection of your compassion Theotokos. Do not disregard our prayers in troubling times, but deliver us from danger O only pure and blessed one. Amen.

[@ventiterre7371]

Let's pray for our Church, which shields us from all the lies designed to rob us of the gifts of our beloved Lord.

[@davidszaraz4605]

Lets be honest. A protestant either has to say, we are worshiping Mary and the saints, hence idolatry, or they should stop saying we are worshiping creatures. Idolatry - worshiping false Gods with the full knowledge of doing so condemns ones to hell. Therefor one has to say all people practicing this go to hell - all members of the apostolic churches of all ages, not until after the reformation. The problem is then all those members who prayed to Mary in the early church, are necessarily in hell then (which a protestant would most probably deny): *St. Gregory the Wonderworker* (d. 270) "Mary, you are the vessel and tabernacle *containing all Mysteries* . You know what the patriarchs did not know; you experienced what was not revealed to the Angels; you heard what the prophets did not hear. In short, everything that was hidden from preceding generations was made known to you; even more, most of these *wonders depended on you* ." *St. Ephrem the Syrian* (306-373) *O Immaculate and wholly-pure Virgin Mary* , Mother of God, Queen of the world, *hope of those who are in despair* : You are the joy of the saints; you are the peacemaker between sinners and God; you are the advocate of the abandoned, the secure haven of those who are on the sea of the world; *you are the consolation of the world* , the ransom of slaves, the comfortress of the afflicted.... O great Queen, we take refuge in your protection. After God, you are all my hope. We bear the name of your servants; allow not the enemy to drag us to hell. I salute you, O great mediatress of peace between men and God, Mother of Jesus our Lord, who is the love of all men and of God, to whom be honor and benediction with the Father and the Holy Ghost. Amen. *St. Ambrose* (340?-397) O, that *the soul of Mary were in us* to glorify the Lord! That the spirit of Mary were in us to rejoice in God. May the life of Blessed Mary be ever present to our awareness. In her, as in a mirror, the form of virtue and beauty of chastity shine forth. She was virgin, not only in body, but in mind and spirit. She never sullied the pure affection of her heart by unworthy feelings. She was humble of heart. She was serious in her conversations. She was prudent in her counsels. She preferred to pray rather than to speak. She united in her heart the prayers of the poor And avoided the uncertainty of worldly riches. She was ever faithful to her daily duties, Reserved in her conversations, and always accustomed to recognize God as the witness of her thoughts. Blessed be the name of Jesus.. Amen. *St. Athanasius* (d. 373) It is becoming for you, O Mary, to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who bestowed upon you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. *Come to our aid* for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called “full of grace.” Be mindful of us, most holy Virgin, and *bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces* , O Virgin, full of grace. *St. Augustine* (354-430) Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanksgiving for rescuing a fallen world by your generous consent? What songs of praise can our weak human nature offer in your honor, since it was through you that it has found the way to salvation? Accept then such poor thanks as we have to offer, unequal though they be to your merits. Receive our gratitude and obtain by your prayers the forgiveness of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to make our peace with God. May the sins we repentantly bring before Almighty God through you be forgiven. May what we beg with confidence be granted through you. Accept our offering and grant our request; obtain pardon for what we fear, for *you are the sole hope of sinners* . We hope to obtain the pardon of our sins through you. Blessed Lady, in you is our hope of reward. Holy Mary, help those who are miserable, strengthen those who are discouraged, comfort those who are sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you experience your assistance and protection. Be ready to aid us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it your continual concern to pray for the People of God, for you were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns forever. *St. Cyril of Alexandria* (382-444) Hail, Mother and Virgin, Eternal Temple of the Godhead, Venerable Treasure of Creation, crown of virginity, support of the true faith, on which the Church is founded throughout the world. Mother of God, who contained the infinite God under your heart, whom no space can contain: through you the most Holy Trinity is revealed, adored, and glorified, demons are vanquished, Satan cast down from heaven into hell and our fallen nature again assumed into heaven. Through you the human race, held captive in the bonds of idolatry, arrives at the knowledge of Truth. What more shall I say of you? Hail, through whom kings rule, through whom the Only-Begotten Son of God has become the Star of Light to those sitting in darkness and in the shadow of death. Amen. *A Father of the Council of Ephesus* (431) Hail, Mary, Mother of God, venerable treasure of the whole world. You are the lamp that is never extinguished, the crown of virginity, the rule of orthodoxy, the incorruptible temple containing the one whom nothing can contain, the mother and virgin, through whom the one who comes in the Name of the Lord receives in the Gospel the name of “Blessed.” We salute you, who have borne the immensity of God in your virginal womb. Through you, the Trinity is sanctified. Through you, the Cross is venerated in the whole world. Through you, heaven is filled with joy. Through you, the angels and archangels rejoice. Through you, demons are sent flying. Through you, the tempter devil is cast out of heaven. Through you, the fallen creature is elevated to heaven. Through you, the whole universe, possessed by idolatry, has attained the knowledge of the truth. Through you, holy baptism comes to those who believe. Through you, the oil of gladness reaches us. Through you, churches are established in the whole world. Through you, peoples are led to conversion. Through you, even more, the only-begotten Son of God has radiated like light upon those who sat in darkness and the shadow of death. Through you, the prophets have announced their message, and the Apostles have proclaimed salvation to the nations. Through you, the dead rise, and kings exercise their royalty, by the power of the Holy Trinity. *James of Saroug* (d. 521) Blessed are you, O Mary, and blessed is your holy soul, for your beatitude surpasses that of all the Blessed. Blessed are you who have borne, embraced, and caressed as a baby the One who upholds the ages with his secret word. Blessed are you, from whom the Savior appeared on this exile earth, subjugating the seducer and bringing peace to the world. Blessed are you, whose pure mouth touched the lips of the One whom the Seraphim do not dare to look upon in His splendor. Blessed are you, who have nourished with your pure milk the source from Whom the living obtain life and light. Blessed are you, because the whole universe resounds with your memory, and the angels and human beings celebrate your feast.... Daughter of the poor, you became the mother of the King of kings. You gave to the poor world the riches that can make it live. You are the bark laden with the goodness and the treasures of the Father, who sent his riches once again into our empty home. *St. Germanus, Bishop of Auxerre* (d. 576) Hail, Mary, full of grace, more holy than the Saints, more elevated than the heavens, more glorious than the Angels, and more venerable than every creature. Hail, heavenly paradise, all fragrant and a lily that gives off the sweetest scent, a perfumed rose that opens up for the health of mortals. Hail, immaculate temple of the Lord, constructed in a holy fashion, ornament of divine magnificence, open to everyone, and oasis of mystical delicacies. Hail, mountain of shade, grazing ground for the holy Lamb Who takes upon Himself the miseries and sins of all. Hail, sacred throne of God, blessed dwelling, sublime ornaments, precious jewel, and splendiferous heavens. Hail, urn of purest gold, who contained the manna Christ, the gentle sweetness of our souls. Hail, most pure Virgin Mother, worthy of praise and veneration, fount of gushing waters, treasure of innocence, and splendor of sanctity. O Mary, lead us to the port of peace and salvation, to the glory of Christ Who lives in eternity with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. *St. Sophronius* (560-638), born in Damascus, patriarch of Jerusalem. Truly, you are blessed among women, for you have changed Eve’s curse into a blessing; and Adam, who hitherto lay under a curse, has been blessed because of you. Truly, you are blessed among women, Through you the Father’s blessing has shone forth on mankind, setting them free of their ancient curse. Truly, you are blessed among women, because through you your forebearers have found salvation. For you were to give birth to the Savior who was to win them salvation. Truly, you are blessed among women, for without seed you have borne, as your fruit, him who bestows blessings on the whole world and redeems it from that curse that made it sprout thorns. Truly, you are blessed among women, because, though a woman by nature, you will become, in reality, God’s mother. If He Whom you are to bear is truly God make flesh, then rightly do we call you God’s mother. For you have truly given birth to God.

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

Lets say one hail mary today for Gavin Ortlund, that he may come into full communion with Christs true church that he established on the rock of St Peter. Comment Amen after praying Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️❤️

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

Amen 🙏🙏🙏

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

@@sonsofpolaris6102 🙏❤️☦️

[@Americanheld]

Incredible work, Joe! We must ask Blessed Mother Mary to pray for Gavin Ortlund.

[@ConnieRossini]

This was excellent, Joe! Thanks for vindicating medieval piety. It's funny, when Dr. Ortlund read the Marian prayers, far from giving me a "bad feeling," I thought, "Where can I get a copy?" As a Catholic, I had no problem understanding what was being said.

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@ConnieRossini]

@@lufhopespeacefully2037 The word "Trinity" does not appear in the Bible, but the concept is all over it, starting with Gen. 1. In the NT, it becomes explicit that there are 3 persons in one God. However, as Catholics, we believe that doctrine develops as the Church ponders what Jesus and the apostles wrote or taught orally. As the Church pondered their words, the Church began to develop a trinitarian theology based on them. When heretics rejected Jesus' full divinity and later the divinity of the Holy Spirit, the Church, guided by that Spirit, responded. Over several centuries, we came to a clearer understanding of the apostolic teaching. This is how the Church works.

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

@@ConnieRossini ,ty for replying connie,, as far as i know trinity is an old worshipping for some an egyptians who have worshipped ezice,authorice&hurce ,later on the church has abducted the notion&also The concept of a trinity predates the Bible. The concept of a trinity predates the Bible. The much older Hindu Vedas had a holy trinity.Called the trimurti, it was Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer, three individual deities that are also a single deity

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

@@ConnieRossini ,how often has bible been revised.peace

[@ConnieRossini]

@@lufhopespeacefully2037 there is absolutely zero evidence that early Christianity was influenced by Egyptian religion, and even less so (if less than zero chance is possible, lol) by Hinduism. And the number of times the Bible has been "revised" (not even sure what you mean there; it has been transcribed and translated, not changed), is irrelevant to the question of whether the Trinity is true. All glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Have a nice day.

[@barborazajacova7633]

The objection about how a practice can go too far and obscure God to the believer is a dangerous one. I could say that, for example, worship music is a dangerous practice because it can draw attention more to the performance than to Jesus who it is meant to glorify, thus making the worship music into an idol. Anything can be misused or misunderstood or wrongly applied by some, that doesn't mean that the particular practice is bad in itself.

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

Exercise could become a distraction from prayer, so I'd better not risk it.

[@essafats5728]

@@JosephHeschmeyer Amen...lol, luv it

[@irishandscottish1829]

@@JosephHeschmeyer my son is 19 and I've loved the videos he has shown me of young Catholic men who are ardent gym goers because the ones my son follows online are constantly telling other young men to use their time at the gym to glorify God - to look after their bodily temple and to pray and praise God while exercising and when struggling to use it as a penance/reparation to hand over to God. In the midst if those who take it too far there are those gems God has given us (you are one of many) that ground their fellow Catholics to remember God in everything they do and to hand it all over to God andleave it to Him.

[@susanmann8643]

Joe, thank you, thank you, thank you for this video! I cannot stand how ppl criticize Catholics on these exact topics. Drives me crazy! So great to have a clear, level headed answer to refute the objections. I pray for Gavin all the time because I truly think he is well meaning but he’s leading ppl away from Jesus’s Church and he’s doing it in a way that is very appealing to those who have any objection to the Marian dogmas, the papacy and all the other issues where Catholics and Protestants differ. I can’t even watch too much of Gavin’s videos because I find myself getting upset at them….but in listening to some of his videos I have found that a lot of his issue with Catholic dogma is not necessarily the dogmas themselves, but the fact that the Magisterium requires us to believe them. He seems to be overly concerned with the Church’s authority…..to the extent that he rails against the dogmas instead of embracing them because he doesn’t like that the Church tells us we have to. And then of course he throws other ‘proofs’ in there so it looks like it’s not just all about rebelling against the Church’s authority. But on the Protestant arguments alone he doesn’t win. There are too many contradictions. Maybe he’d be more open to Catholic teachings if they weren’t required. I for one am happy these dogmas are required beliefs - I trust in the Magisterium and the Holy Spirits influence on it. Proud to be Catholic! 🙏🏻💕👏🏻 Thank you again!

[@yvettesam731]

Yes i share the same feeling towards Pastor Gavin. I will pray for him also.

[@conovan5081]

It's so weird to hear "devotion to the saints draws you away from Jesus", my personal experience was the absolute opposite, since I'm somewhat of a nerd, I was always fond of Aquinas and after reading about him from Chesterton and tackling some of his ideas, I became convinced Jesus was the savior. So I was brought back to Christ through my affinity towards one particular saint. (I would love to say 'two saints' but Chesterton is not canonized... yet!)

[@mikekayanderson408]

All true believers are addressed in the Bible as saints. Saints do not have to be canonised by the popes and the RC Church. A lot of the people the RC Church has canonised may not even have been truly saved at all and in God’s eyes are not saints at all.

[@shadowsteppah]

​@@mikekayanderson408says you? Laughable

[@irishandscottish1829]

@@mikekayanderson408 do you even know the process the Catholic church goes through before declaring a Saint? They don't just randomly say x is a Saint. They look at the persons whole life, all their wiritngs and whether or not they constantly pointed towards God glory etc. There are many who are Saints in heaven who haven't been declared a Saint because we don't have the evidence of their life to declare without doubt that they are one. I would challenge you to give just one example of a declared Saint by the Catholic church who you ‘think’ isn't saved or a Saint because you will struggle to find one when you look into that Saints life etc.

[@TriciaPerry-ef7bi]

​@@shadowsteppahsays the word of God..... THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS. but tell and sell you all this farce for generations 😮

[@TriciaPerry-ef7bi]

​@@irishandscottish1829I know. They look for the biggest greedy demon who is Willing to lie and sell LIES to DECEIVE the most souls. European Caucasian man religion

[@timrichardson4018]

I'm a new Catholic and still seeing things in fresh ways at times. The importance of the communion or saints is becoming more clear to me. The point is that we don't ONLY have a one to one personal relationship with Jesus. We are ALSO a part of a body, the Church, who collectively, as a unified body, have a relationship with Jesus. And we love one another and pray for one another as scripture implores us. The Church militant and suffering benefits from prayers. But the Church triumphant cannot benefit from our prayers because they have already attained the victory of Christ. But, we can benefit from their prayers. And all of our prayers for one another and their prayers for us center on Christ. It's all for the purpose of drawing us nearer to Christ, for our salvation. I think medieval Christians would have had a hard time understanding people who thought there was some contradiction here.

[@thejerichoconnection3473]

This type of objections from thoughtful Protestants like Gavin Ortlund shows how even thoughtful Protestants have such a shallow understanding of the beauty of the Catholic faith. How can you possibly think that Jesus would be upset if you give the utmost honor and praise to his blessed mother?

[@mamaliamalak7825]

Protestant to Eastern Orthodox convert here. I admit the high honor of the Theotokos was an initial hangup for me. However I had a thought, if Jesus, who created the universe said "Honor your Father and Mother", how could I not honor HIS mother? That is one of the many errors I'm rather embarrassed looking back on.

[@essafats5728]

Hey, thanks for ur point of: protestants have a shallow understanding of the beauty of the Catholic faith. I couldnt put my finger on why prottys, although professing their love for Jesus, could be so ignorant and condemning of HIS-founded Church.

[@gideondavid30]

Not shallow it's a real critique that divides us. If it was "honor" for a footnote to the Gospel message fine. Mariology goes well beyond that though.

[@thejerichoconnection3473]

@@gideondavid30 thinking that Mariology dangerously detracts and distracts from Jesus is shallow understanding of Mariology. The exact opposite is true. Mariology magnifies Jesus. Thinking that Mary should be relegated to a footnote to the Gospels is shallow understanding of Scripture as well.

[@HumanDignity10]

@@gideondavid30When Mariology is properly understood, it can help strengthen one’s understanding of salvation history and the mission of Jesus.

[@timmcvicker5775]

"'Come to me all who are heavy burdened and I will give you rest." - Jesus, creator of the universe, Savior of mankind.

[@timmcvicker5775]

@trollpatrol7215 Christ asked His followers to spread the "Good News". This is 'why'. We can, and should, all go "straight to Him" in prayer.

[@timmcvicker5775]

@trollpatrol7215 Whether in the Eucharist, prayer or repentance, we have been instructed by Christ himself to follow and come to Him. Think about that miraculous invitation. Jesus, the Messiah, has asked that we come directly to Him. It is not necessary, or biblical for that matter, to seek out intermediates from those who came before us. We are told in the Bible that we should pray for one another, not only as a Christian community, but to help build the church, spread the Good News, and provide spiritual support to others. Christ stated He would always be with us to the end of time. He is the Good Shepherd. "My sheep hear my voice and follow me". Nothing more is needed.

[@timmcvicker5775]

@patriceagulu8315 John 10:30. "I and the Father are one.” - Jesus

[@timmcvicker5775]

@patriceagulu8315 You probably need to.

[@MariaGarcia-el6ph]

@@timmcvicker5775 How is everyone supposed to know what and how to pray for me, unless I tell them? James says to pray for one another, the prayers of a righteous man avails much. Who is more righteous than the Mother of God and his holy saints and martyrs in heaven? Do they hear us, or is there a special grace by God that they can become aware of what we ask intercession for? I don't know, but they are part of the Body of Christ, the Church Triumphant. As such, they are actively carrying out the first and second commandments more perfectly than you or I. Why is it wrong to avail ourselves of the prayers of these righteous ones? It does not detract from our prayers and worship to the Triune God, which is done without ceasing in the Church.

[@timboslice980]

Excellent presentation as always. Cant wait for the rest of the series. My best friend has been agnostic all his life. Hes just now getting into christianity, he goes to a non denom church and i guess one of their staples is anticstholicism. We literally just had huge conversation about this. I sent him the video, im hoping he watches it.

[@robertotapia8086]

Totally agree this is the type of teaching video we can share with others to try to help them understand and correct false accusations of us to Mamá Maria.

[@GumbyJumpOff]

I think the episodes on the canon would be fantastic for someone who is hearing anti-Catholic rhetoric. Have you seen those? They just so handily tear down the argument that Catholics added books to the Bible, and perhaps seeing that that argument is baseless and patently untrue, they might be more curious as to what the truth really is. I'll link them: A 'Lost' Book Foretold the Death of Jesus Christ? - kzbin.info/www/bejne/qmWXgKOfm8mDqNE Did Catholics Add 7 Books to the Bible? Or Did Protestants Remove Them? - kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6bHi36wnq2Yo9E Some others since I have them written in a note already :] Was Mary A Perpetual Virgin? - kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3mzi4qFir10qMk 4 Surprising Catholic Implications from the 'Our Father' - kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6fGgaCgpZyjj68 Are Some Sins Worse Than Others? - kzbin.info/www/bejne/eZrHY32rgdOIgqM And the excellent episode with Tim Staples on the Marian dogmas - 4 Things Catholics Believe About Mary - kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqaWk3uhlKt9o7M Some more things. I'm on a roll, can't stop! Ahhhhhh! Is The Papacy Biblical? - m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKHZk5iFhtagbMk Debate on Intercession of the Saints. - kzbin.infoXK2Pa4oNNxg?feature=share I pray for you all, please pray for me and those on my heart. Peace and God bless and guide you.

[@calebjushua9252]

@@robertotapia8086 🕵️What kind of evidence can you give to prove that God has imputed unto Mary the intercessory power that could bring gifts of salvation to the human race (as stated in Catechism)?

[@paulmualdeave5063]

Dr. Ortlund makes being incorrect sound good.

[@starshipchris4518]

I've followed you for years, since your blog days. This was one of my favorite of your talks. It was extremely impactful, especially the Scriptural breakdown. Many thanks, and may God bless you and your work.

[@marlam8625]

Thank you [Dr Ortlund] for those beautiful prayers of Mary- just hearing them was edifying that we have such an advocate in heaven. I believe much of the confusion is a conflation of ‘salvation’ and ‘redemption’.

[@coachp12b]

For real. I screen shot them.

[@signumcrucis4172]

Your style is great, Joe. I hope your channel continues to grow.

[@Jfloyd]

This may be exactly what I've been looking for!

[@toddgruber5729]

This is outstanding! I can’t believe I didn’t understand this as well as I should’ve but this was awesome. We are all in this together and the communion we have is crucial. Amazing to know to help increase our love for each other.

[@elederiruzkin8835]

(7:22) "... this underdeveloped idea within Protestantism of taking seriously the concept affirmed in the Creed of the Communion of the Saints [...] There's a need for many Protestants to rediscover like, oh, yes, you are part of the Body of Christ. And the Body of Christ doesn't just include those on Earth; it also includes those in heaven. (We'll leave aside the whole Purgatory question.) But certainly we can say Scripture does not treat salvation as a merely individualistic thing. It doesn't just have the vertical dimension of my relationship with God. There's also this really rich horizontal dimension, intersecting in this kind of christological way, in Christ, that love of God intersects with love of neighbor. And so there's this part where it really matters that I'm part of the Body of Christ. And I'm called to be part of the Kingdom. And that this means I have certain rights and obligations and duties. And that one of the things that this includes is actually praying for the other members of the body."

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@calebjushua9252]

@@elederiruzkin8835 🚨Are you saying salvation is not personal?

[@rosiegirl2485]

Dr. Scott Hahn "was" anti-Catholic. His conversion story is intellectually and emotionally beautiful! Lets pray that we can add Dr. Gavin Ortland to that ever growing list of honest intellectuals who are opening themselves to the truths of the Church that Jesus built, the Catholic Church! How excited I am to be able to say "Welcome Home!" ❤

[@mapaz555]

This is Excellent. Thank you so much. May God keep using our collaboration to bring us closer to Him. I hope God keeps blessing your every day, that God keeps guiding your every step and every word. Bless your home and your work. Amen

[@megrose711]

I've been working through Fr. Gaitley's "Morning Glory" and pondering Marian consecration, which I am committed to doing. Of course, these doubts pop up, why don't I just consecrate myself directly to Christ? There is a reason. There is more than our individual relationship with Jesus Christ, which we can nurture through prayer and the Eucharist. But we are also in relationship with one another. Jesus gave us His mother. He gave us each other. We will all help one another in these relationships, and the one with Mary is also set apart and special. I pray that Protestants learn more about this and what they are missing out on!

[@calebjushua9252]

🕵️Praying to a saint is not Scriptural.

[@ElishaD-rb8pv]

@@calebjushua9252 how do the prayers of God's people get to the saints in heaven in Rev5:8 or to the angels in Rev8:3-4? Where did the jewish tradition of invoking Elijah (e.g. Mt27:47-49) in times of trouble came from?

[@calebjushua9252]

@@ElishaD-rb8pv 🕵️The prayers in Revelation 8:3-4 are of the living saints on Earth. 🕵️Jesus did not invoke Elijah in Matthew 27:47-49, thus, you can't use it to support your presumption. In fact, invoking the dead is prohibited (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

[@ElishaD-rb8pv]

@@calebjushua9252 that's right prayers of the living saints on earth, offered to God via the saints and angels in heaven. But how did the prayers of the saints on earth get to the saints and angels in heaven in the first place? You don't understand. The pharisees thought Jesus was invoking Elijah's help because that was an established jewish tradition (NIV Bible study notes). You don't understand the difference between invoking the dead and intercession. In fact the pharisees and the priests would have been too happy to accuse Jesus of breaking the Law, as per Deut18:12-13 but they didn't. On the other hand Jesus would never go against the Law, by talking to Elijah and Moses, Lk9:30 that's because the saints in heaven are not dead Mt22:32. You have an indirect reference, that they alive and their ability to intercede, also in Jer15:1. Then after Jesus resurrection we know that all saints in heaven and believers on earth are all part of the living body of Jesus Christ, that's the basic reason we are able to ask for their intercession as Revelation shows they actually do it.

[@calebjushua9252]

@@ElishaD-rb8pv 1️⃣Your response: But how did the prayers of the saints on earth get to the saints and angels in heaven in the first place? 🧑‍⚖️My rebuttal: Who told you that the prayers of the saints in earth must be received by the saints in heaven? Revelations 8:4-5 only talks about the angel offering the prayers of the saints on earth upon the golden altar. No mention of saints in heaven.

[@garyr.8116]

"why not go straight to Jesus" = Because God Himself first used an intercessor to bring Jesus to us - Mary! And HE predestined HER as a SIGN for us to find HIM - without Mary you haven't Christ!

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Typical Mary worshiping Catholic. It just gets laid on thicker all the time.

[@NcLovin96]

Amazing analysis. Praying for the growth of this channel!

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

From your lips to God's ears!

[@melaniejane3116]

Thank you God for this video of Joes! Thank you!

[@danielcarriere1958]

Fantastic video John. Quality presentation.

[@kofiadjei-frimpong9279]

Very insightful information. This is the best defence for "praying to Mary and the saints". Thank you and God bless you and your family.

[@deanphilipsaunders775]

You're awesome Joe. So clear and with great evidence to back up Christ's Church.

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@yourhomesoldguaranteedreal4100]

I look forward to your KZbin posts. Great Job Joe!! Keep up the great work!

[@ericgatera7149]

To say that I am impressed would be an understatement. Excellent video.

[@jmelvin]

Very insightful comments from both sides. It's quite refreshing to hear intelligent critiques and equally intelligent responses.

[@amadorlugo2698]

Joe’s video are on a different level 🔥 and starting to become my favorite apologist 🙏

[@carlingtonme]

I really appreciate your deep dives into questions of faith.I may begin to start taking notes. God Bless you!

[@user-uc1yb7hy2n]

Looking forward to this one.

[@michaeljefferies2444]

I disagree with your take on the criticism applying to “far-off” Catholics. I think it usually comes from experience from neighbors and family members. Both before and after becoming Catholic I have met good, faithful people who will tell me they only pray to Jesus through Mary because their prayers aren’t good enough and Mary makes them perfect. I also will hear people say they feel more comfortable praying to Mary than to Jesus. This seems legitimately problematic to me, and I say that as a Catholic, and I wish we could be more bold in saying this happens and it’s a problem. Doing so would buy a lot of good will from Protestants. I also often hear people not using intercessory language in relation to the saints “I asked St. so-and-so to pray for me about x, y, and z, and God gave me x, y and z”. But they will use language more fitting towards God: “I prayed to St. So-and -so and he answered my prayers and gave me x, y, and z.” I’m sure these people would give the proper clarifications if pushed on it, but to non-Catholic ears, it sounds like they are going to a saint for their needs instead of God, and they believe the saint, not God, gave them what they needed. Again, I think we should be more open about the reality that some good, pious people do this (not just uneducated people). Maybe this is just coming from my geographical area, but this is something I experience not infrequently. It would build a lot of goodwill with Protestants who agree with the intercessory principle in theory, but don’t find that it is operational in practice at the local level. Of course, official teaching is very clear on how this works, and the catechism doesn't even use the language "prayers to saints" and always talks about the "intercession of the saints". But some (definitely not most) faithful Catholics will do these kinds of these things, and I think Protestants are reacting against those experiences. Just my thoughts on that!

[@Forester-]

My use of saintly intercession as a convert is far less than what I typically see from cradle Catholics. Apart from a devotion like the rosary its usually just "St. X, pray for me". I wonder if other converts have a similar experience.

[@jendoe9436]

I wonder if it is just a person’s disposition and how they generally talk. For example, I have the habit of asking for St. Anthony’s intercession to find something simple by saying, “Tony, help me out, please.” 9/10 it works and the 1/10 is my mom pointing out ‘It’s right there’ 😅 For more serious issues, I’ll do more formal prayers and wording, but I just don’t see the need all the time. A comparison I heard about the Saints is they are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and all of us our family. I’ve taken the idea a bit differently sometimes by thinking of some of them (mainly the older ones) as aunts and uncles. Some of my aunts and uncles are very chill that it’s easy for me to talk with them, others I speak to less frequently as they tend not to be as personable to. I love them all of course, but the way I speak to and about them differs.

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

I agree, that's an area where we could do better cathechetically

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@trollpatrol7215 I'm not sure what your point is? You give an example of if a person prays only to Mary, and ask where do their prayers go? If a person is only praying to Mary, don't you have to wonder who their ultimate allegiance is to. I'm not sure if you are suggesting it's more humble to pray only to Mary? It seems highly misdirected to pray only to Mary. When Jesus gave the example of the tax collector, who didn't even so much as lift his eyes to heaven, it was his humble prayer to God that justified him. The tax collector had a contrite heart, knowing he was a sinner, was not looking to make a show for men, like the pharisee, and prayed directly to God for his sins.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@Michaeljefferies You are more candid than most Catholics about issues w/ praying to saints. Mostly we hear from the more zealous Catholics, and the claim is that we are merely asking someone to pray for us. I've seen many Catholic saint prayers, esp. some of the Mary novenas. They look just like worship to God and prayers to God and are alarming.

[@cabellero1120]

Mary shows Us how to love Jesus more! Mary accepted Christ into her life.. She is a role model for All Christians

[@yourhomesoldguaranteedreal4100]

Great Job Joe!!!! Keep up the great work!! I/ we really appreciate You!

[@gc3563]

One of your best videos yet I think, that’s really saying something when they’ve all been so good and charitable but yet hammering home the truth of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church our Lord and Savior gave to us 🙏🏻

[@DerrickSizemore]

Joe, Thank you! I'm really enjoying your channel. I too once struggled with this, but wasn't as charitable as Gavin. He is much further up the road of truth than I was. I really enjoy the discourse. I was confirmed Easter of 2022.

[@KatieAlexisLovitt]

JOE! Your podcast is fantastic! Love you on CAL, love your books, and now this! GG!

[@elederiruzkin8835]

Wonderful presentation. Thank you very much!

[@danielcavi4917]

This is one of my favorite responses to Dr. Ortlund because of the way it goes into areas that Catholics don’t normally take their reactions to him, such as when it touches on the idea of “culture shock”, and especially when it goes into our differences in understanding the Communion of Saints (which is far more important than it gets credit for- there are so many downstream implications). It’s easy for apologetics response videos to feel like a chess match, which isn’t always productive in moving the discussion forward, even when both sides are cordial. This one doesn’t fall into that pattern. I really hope Gavin interacts with this, and I’m looking forward to the next couple of episodes!

[@robertotapia8086]

@shamelesspopery @Joe Heschmeyer thanks for taking the time to make this very well thought out video on Mama Maria it not only helps honest Protestants but also Catholics better understand our devotions to her. This is a great video to share with all PLEASE continue to help us grow in our faith, GOD Bless your family and you thanks Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

Thank you!

[@PellePoluha]

This was really great! Thanks Joe!

[@HumanDignity10]

This was an excellent video, Joe, thank you. I love your calm, thoughtful, and charitable approach. I really appreciate your point about looking at the totality of what people are actually doing. Based on comments and interactions with Protestants on Gavin’s channel, there appears to be a lot of misunderstanding of how much time Catholics actually spend worshiping Jesus. Sunday is a Holy Day of Obligation for good reasons- taking the time to worship Jesus is not viewed as optional for Catholics- it’s essential. Based on an interaction I had with someone on Gavin’s website, Sunday services are optional for Protestants. I’m not sure if that’s true for all Protestants , but it was for this one. So if someone is not aware that we are worshipping every Sunday, plus the options to worship most weekdays, plus Adoration, and then they see prayers to Mother Mary and the Saints, they get a distorted view of what we Catholics are doing.

[@fantasia55]

Unlike most Protestant preachers, Ortlund discusses the Church Fathers. He tries to explain them away, but his task is hopeless because they were so Catholic.

[@gideondavid30]

He doesn't explain them away as if to dismiss their Catholicness. He actually makes the case for their Protestant that's a different thing.

[@fantasia55]

@@gideondavid30 Gavin is certainly trying to make his case, but in vain because the Church Fathers were Catholic priests who would have been appalled by Ortlundism and other Protestant sects.

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@fantasia55]

@@lufhopespeacefully2037 because Sola Scriptura is false

[@OzCrusader]

Thank you Joe, for another excellent presentation. You reminded me of something I was taught a long time ago, that our prayers in faith can save our loved ones. This is awesome and incredible and I am so pleased that you reminded me that reality once again. May God continue blessing you! Amen!

[@PattiS3]

This is fantastic. I'm so grateful to you, Joe. I love all the OT references.

[@jordanmiller3927]

Amazing video as always

[@lorenzomp4620]

Mary has been revered since the first centuries of Christianity, if to this day the tomb of Rachel, wife of Jacob, is revered by the Jews, with much more reason the first Christians (who came doctrinally from Judaism) revered Mary, being she the mother of the Messiah Son of God

[@holmavik6756]

Lutheran here. About asking Mary or some saint to pray for you, that would usually not be considered as something wrong or strange. But it is not practiced by the ”average” lutheran, except perhaps during the great easter mass, when we declare our faith, through the creed. In this mass there may well be a lithany for Mary and a selection of saints.

[@fantasia55]

Luther himself was devoted to Mary.

[@holmavik6756]

@@fantasia55 indeed he was!

[@JosephHeschmeyer]

That's very interesting! I know some Lutherans here in Kansas City (and others I've met), but I'm certainly better acquainted with Evangelicals / Baptists / Non-Denominational Christians and Reformed Christians. Are you LCMS?

[@holmavik6756]

@@JosephHeschmeyer I really don’t know much about lutheran churches in the US, but in Sweden and Finland these things are common. I guess it’s because our ”reformation” didn’t go as far as elsewhere, much thanks to Laurentius Petri, our first Lutheran archbishop, who was careful to not introduce ”unnecessary” changes.

[@mikekayanderson408]

There is something VERY STRANGE about praying to the dead - and WRONG

[@zakouraa]

I am so, so thankful I've found your podcast! Having listened to a few episodes now, I think these are some of THE BEST Catholic apologetic content on KZbin. You are so thorough in your references to the Bible and other sources, and the podcast itself is so well-produced. I will definitely have to take notes and watch multiple times!

[@monicariegelbook4344]

Thank you Joe. I love listening to your videos. You have a very calming approach to everything and this study that you just presented is excellent and I feel very encouraged to share it with my siblings who left the faith and need to return. I often feel that my parents and relatives who passed on .. are in church with me , cheering that I returned after a 45 long years. God Bless You… and may all or our intercessions bring Gavin to the whole truth. 🙏🙏🙏

[@billysgirl5931]

Those lovely prayers to Mary touched my heart. Heavenly Father thank you for your saints.

[@femaleKCRoyalsFan]

Most of the mysteries of the rosary are about Jesus’s life, only a handful are DIRECTLY about Mary.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Most of the prayers on the rosary are directly to Mary though. There are 50 Hail Mary's, and contemplating the mysteries is a fairly new addition.

[@HumanDignity10]

@@saintejeannedarc9460The Hail Mary prayer has Jesus at its center.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@HumanDignity10 You're hailing Mary, extolling Mary, praying to Mary and merely mentioning Jesus. That's not really Jesus at its center.

[@HumanDignity10]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I pulled this from Ascension Press b/c it’s a good explanation: The Biblical Roots of the Hail Mary Catholics are often criticized for praying to Mary, but every part of the Hail Mary has biblical roots which reveal that the focus of this prayer is actually Jesus. St. John Paul II put it this way, “Although the repeated Hail Mary is addressed directly to Mary, it is to Jesus that the act of love is ultimately directed, with her and through her.” Dr. Sri unpacks the biblical roots of the Hail Mary to help us truly understand the significance of this powerful prayer. Snippet from the Show: “Every time we pray the Hail Mary, we enter into the ecstatic praise of heaven and earth. Heaven represented by Gabriel, earth represented by Elizabeth. We’re entering into their words of praise, which are in Scripture and are inspired by God.” SHOWNOTES “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you” Luke 1:26-28 - In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb” Luke 1:39-45 - In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechari′ah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit* and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” *filled with the Holy Spirit - this language is used to describe someone who is given prophetic insight. “Jesus” Philippians 2:8-11 - And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow*, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. *at the name of Jesus - there is immense power in the name of Jesus, and his name is at the very center of this prayer, making it literally a Christocentric prayer. St. John Paul II called it the “hinge” of the Hail Mary. He said, “The centre of gravity in the Hail Mary, the hinge as it were which joins its two parts, is the name of Jesus. Sometimes, in hurried recitation, this centre of gravity can be overlooked, and with it the connection to the mystery of Christ being contemplated. Yet it is precisely the emphasis given to the name of Jesus and to his mystery that is the sign of a meaningful and fruitful recitation of the Rosary.” “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” Luke 1:8 - And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”* *let it be to me - Mary’s Fiat, her yes to God, is exactly what we seek to emulate. This part of the Hail Mary is where we ask Our Lady to intercede for us, so that we may accept Jesus into our hearts as she did. RESOURCES Rosarium Virginis Mariae, Apostolic letter of St. John Paul II Praying the Rosary Like Never Before by Dr. Edward Sri How to Pray Like Mary by Sonja Corbitt

[@yalechuk6714]

​@@saintejeannedarc9460 That is you. Your understanding of it. I can say the same of most of worship songs protestant sing and twist it to say they always sing about themselves therefore it's not about Christ .

[@HarleyGirl75]

Great episode!!

[@builditwithbill]

Always excellent!!!

[@CBlackartist]

Catholics were marking shrines,recording lives dates and circumstances and saving relics from the earliest times.

[@johnflorio3576]

Never be afraid to trust Mary. After all, God the Father trusted her with His only Son both in utero and throughout His childhood.

[@gideondavid30]

Why is there a need to trust Mary at all? What would be the purpose of trusting Mary? The fact she is trustworthy or not is irrelevant to whether we should be trusting her for anything.

[@ricardorios6138]

Awesome explanations!! - May our Lord Richly Bless You!

[@dynamic9016]

Thanks much for this video.

[@shepherdson6189]

From the letter of St. Paul to the Colossians, 22nd week in ordinary time Sept. 7, 2023 1st reading, Colossians 1:9-14 (RSVCE): 9 And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[@shepherdson6189]

If during their lifetime as disciples of Christ, they are already praying unceasingly for the church. Much more can be said that the saints in heaven prays for us unceasingly in the presence of God. This is clearly depicted in the book of Revelation as the prayer of the saints.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@shepherdson6189 What is depicted in Revelation is the scripture you first quoted. The prayers of the saints on earth are offered up in heaven.

[@shepherdson6189]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 indeed the prayers of the saints on earth are offered up by the saints in heaven. The Church Triumphant prays for the Church Militant.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@shepherdson6189 No, what John sees in the Revelations visions is that the prayers of saints on earth (that is our prayers, as the NT talks about often), are offered up by an angel, not by departed saints in heaven.

[@shepherdson6189]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 Revelation 5:8 (RSVCE): 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints... "the elders are described as priests, which gives us insight to the nature of the prayers being offered. That they are priests is suggested by the number twenty-four, which calls to mind the twenty-four divisions of Levitical priests (1 Chron. 24-25), the harp that each holds, which was an instrument used by Levitical priests to play liturgical music in the house of the Lord (1 Chron. 25:6), and the offering of incense, which was a priestly duty (Exod. 30:1; Num. 7:84-86; 16:8, 10-11). Inasmuch as they are priests, they “act on behalf of men in relation to God” (Heb. 5:1) in imitation of Jesus, the true priest, “who always lives to make intercession” for those “who draw near to God through him” (Heb. 7:25). God’s people don’t just relate to him by offering praises-they relate to him by making petitions: “[I]n everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God” (Phil. 4:6)." Catholic Answers Magazine: Defending the Prayers of the Saints By Karlo Broussard 2/4/2019 This is just but one that suggest that the saints in heaven are praying for us.

[@crekow]

Joe's comment at 49:15 - 49:39 is sooo on target. Gavin speaks of his concern that Christians may become too distracted from Christ, but I see a more common problem in Christianity these days. That is: "I believe in Jesus and He loves me, so that's all I need to care about - full stop". Our Lord never intended that our "personal relationships" with Him become obstacles to our love and concern for our fellow man. See Matthew 22:37-40: "Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

[@victor382]

What a beautiful apologetics for the saints. I learned a lot.

[@charlesudoh6034]

Please guys, we need to help this channel grow as quickly as possible. He is currently one of our strongest apologists.

[@BobBoldt-sp1gr]

1. The assertions that “Catholics pray to Mary” or “I pray directly to God” are red herrings. Catholics who pray to saints ALSO pray directly to God (and receive His body, blood, soul, and divinity each week in communion in keeping with John 6). 2. Catholics recognize the INFINITE difference between God and anyone He creates, including Mary or any other saints. 2A. Because of the infinite difference between us and God, asking the greatest among us (Mary and saints) to pray for us is a good way to bridge that gap. 3. Catholics don’t worship Mary, an assertion that arises from a false understanding of Catholic prayer and the conflation of prayer and worship (which is fundamentally to offer sacrifice - something that traces all the way back through the Old Testament and captured in the mass through the Eucharist). 4. Protestants and Evangelicals are often more serious about their faith than many Catholics. But sola scriptura, sola fide, and the existence of thousands of various Christian churches with differing interpretations of the Bible is illogical, un-Biblical, and defies the historical evidence from those who learned directly from the apostles or those who did (Polycarp, Iraneaus, Clement, St. Ignatius of Antioch, etc.).

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Modern Catholic doctrine is very different from the early church fathers and the teaching of the apostles that we find in scripture. So if you find fault w/ different denominations and interpretations of scripture, then the same measuring stick should be put to the early church, and the modern RCC.

[@jonatasmachado7217]

I think that the references to the intercessory role of Moses, Samuel and Rachel in Jeremiah are also very relevant to the topic, as is the special communion Daniel had with the Archangels Saint Gabriel and Saint Michael, who were fighting for the jewish people. Through intercession with Mary and the Saints we are not putting Jesus in the background. On the contrary, we are uniting and consolidating the body of Christ, his Church.

[@irishandscottish1829]

That's what I find puzzling. Protestants constantly claim we are ignoring Christ when we pray to the Saints for the intercession YET as a Catholic I have never thought/read about a Saint and not automatically thought about Gods glory and thought about Our Lords passion. Every single Saint is always pointing towards the Truine God

[@calebjushua9252]

🕵️Prayers of intercession can be done among living Christians in the physical world (1 Timothy 2:1). 🙋Mary's case is so different. According to Catholic catechism, Mary has the intercessory power to bring gifts of salvation to the human race. This is absurd. That's the role of Jesus Christ, not of Mary. 🙋And nowhere in the Scripture can we find a living Christian (physical world) asked for intercession from a saint in the spiritual world. 🙋Asking an intercession from a saint in the spiritual world is an act of prayer. Nowhere in the Scripture can we find that Jesus instructed the Christians to offer their prayers to human beings (dead or alive). Instead, He taught them to pray to God the Father.

[@tracycameron5099]

This was overall fantastic. As a convert to Catholicism i have struggled with the prayer to Mary, especially. I will listen over and over intilnit soaks in. I am a student of history and have seen the value of the Rosary in the lives of the people. Could you do a show on it too? Thanks for this excellent treatment of prayer. You have rekindled my zeal for prayinng for my family.

[@timrichardson4018]

Dr. Ortland is such a good frienemy! I think many Catholic apologists would consider him a friend. He's a great guy. And he's good for the faith, and good for Catholics. He's a good one to test Catholic arguments against.

[@CBlackartist]

Bring back Traditional Catholic Culture!

[@kathyweiland4732]

You both are amazingly kind and understanding of each other. Gavin I am praying for your conversion to catholicism. Where you will be filled with so many graces from the sacraments. You would be an awesome role model in the Catholic Church

[@lufhopespeacefully2037]

Why does the Trinity not appear in the Bible?peace,

[@R.C.425]

Prayers for Gavin

[@canibezeroun1988]

Not only is this a textbook case on intercession of the saints but how the righteous on Earth even are looked to for the good of the Church and the World. It's amazing.

[@fabianagco5902]

I want to like this video more than once!

[@Ekim1740]

protestant led people away from Christ by making them turn back from his Church and his Eucharist.

[@HellenicCatholic]

I pray that smart men like Gavin, Cooper and White find their way back into Christ’s established Church. We need to be unified just like Christ prayed to His Father for.

[@mikekayanderson408]

Finally in the Jude verses you are getting closer to the truth. We preach the Gospel - God saves. We are called to warn and to preach the Gospel to others and so God uses us as a link in the chain leading to salvation. As Scripture says we are to plant the seed but it is God who waters and brings to flower. But your terminology earlier was quite wrong

[@TheFarmerTed]

Thank you Joe for this next set of topics! I’m particularly looking forward to the third video! My wife isn’t catholic and believes in sleep after death. I’ve found it a difficult to explain why that’s wrong from a catholic perspective. Your videos have helped explain other viewpoints so I’m definitely pumped. God bless you and all who come across your videos!

[@elizabethking5523]

🙏🏻 will pray for her! I’m in RCIA now. Continue to let her see your love for her, Christ and The Church and your Fellowman. Then give her time. And while you wait- Trust God with faith!😃

[@timboslice980]

If youre a protestant, welcome! Id encourage you to watch the video and interact with it. Otherwise, most of our replies will be to tell you to watch the video. Joe brings up most of the basic objections that you guys are bringing up and does a better job than we can in addressing them. Wouldnt it be more productive?

[@timboslice980]

@trollpatrol7215 Amen I feel like apologetics is full of different types of Christians. You have some that just love the lord and the bible and all they do is positive and encouraging. Then there's the apparent trolls who seem to have more of a problem with other churches than promotion of their own. You can tell they aren't there to offer a better way, just to disparage others. There's the nerds who don't take this stuff personally but dig into the history and educational benefits of apologetics. They'll debate but it's usually pretty calm. There's priests, pastors, amateur apologist youtubers with no scholarship, and others who are mix of everything. I'd like to think I'm the latter category.... I don't attack protestants but I will listen to protestant apologists and refute certain parts of their videos. Usually the parts where I feel I have a strong point to make usually in defense of the church, against an accusation made in the video. Misunderstanding catholic doctrine is almost a goal of most protestants on KZbin it seems.

[@markwelch9250]

I’ve never felt closer to Jesus than I do now under the mantle of Our Lady. The Blessed Mother is only who she is because of who her son is. Made Immaculate and pure like the Ark was so she could bear the Word in flesh, the True Bread of heaven, the Royal High Priest within her. Queen Mother of her son’s Davidic Kingdom, showing Jesus true Davidic Kingship, and interceding on behalf of the people of her son’s Kingdom, just as every Davidic Kings Queen Mother did. She always points us to her son and tells us “Do whatever he tells you.” Understanding who the Blessed Mother is torn down every barrier I had to converting from the AoG.

[@flyingmotorcycles]

Thank you for the video. Most Catholics believe in both the secular and the Protestant forms of the "Dark Ages" myth so it was great to hear you tackle that head on. In the future, could you link to the videos you're responding to in the description or in a card at the beginning of your video? I found it difficult to track down Gavin Ortlund's video to watch it in full before I watched this video and had to scroll a year back into his video history. If you did something to this effect, then I missed it and I apologize. Thank you!

[@angloaust1575]

Only one mediator Christ Jesus

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

do you know that the Holy Spirit is called an intercessor? Romans 8:26-27 I think that destroys your butcheting of the Bible. Let's go over the verse: there is one mediator, the man Jesus christ, that died as a ransom for all. That's the full sentence. In plain english it means that out of the mediators that are there, only Jesus Christ died as a ransom for all. You're too ashamed of your man made religion you have to completely ignore what the full verse is to back up your man made doctrine.

[@angloaust1575]

Jesus said I will send the Comforter He will teach you all things And guide you into all truth!

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

@@angloaust1575 Yes. So there IS NOT just one mediator/intercessor. Or did Paul lie? Which one is it?

[@angloaust1575]

All work together in harmony Father Son and Spirit There's unity and harmony In the trinity!

[@tafazzi-on-discord]

@@angloaust1575 YES BUT THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO MEDIATORS. Stop lying. You're not a heretic that thinks Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit, right? Therefore, here's a list of mediators between God and man: 1-Jesus 2-the Holy Spirit 3-the living christians 4-the saints in heaven Stop spouting irrelevant things and admit you were wrong.

[@CBlackartist]

"Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land." James 5:13 - 20 Who is more righteous than Theotokos...Mother of Divine Mercy

[@dennis3651]

Prayer is one part of worshipping the Lord our God, He hears our prayers and answers according to His will, He alone does this, no one else.

[@Coastie4]

Jesus saved the paralytic because of the faith of his friends - Boom! Gavin's misunderstandings as with all objections started with a false argument for the sake of the protest. Too bad Gavin wasn't able to rectify his misunderstandings using the bible like you did! Great Job!