#89 Kenwood TS-850 for maintenance and ESR lab talk

[@pa4tim]

Finaly someone who uses a datasheet instead of those useless tables. But use the one from the cap you measure, not some random type and brand. Also important, ESR gets lower if the temperature increases, something to watch out for.. ESR is not holy, low ESR is most time very good but not always, it can sometimes make a circuit unstable. A good manufacturer chooses a cap that has all parameters for his circuit right (but I'm spoiled, I only repair test and calibration gear) I just repaired a Fluke 123. All smd 150uF/6,3 caps where bad. Not very much, just on the edge of the datasheet and for the ESR fans, they measured great in situ and the scope was only 5 or 6 years old. The only one that measured very bad in situ was the only one that measured almost as new when desoldered. So why I replaced them, ? Simple the scope did not work well and the cause was a huge ripple on the 3V3 line. (over 1Vpp). After replacing the caps the ripple was gone. And that is what matters the most. Capacitance was within the 20% tolerance, tan-d was just over the edge of the new tolerance but under the max over time(200%) . DC leakage was well within specs (uA/time). So, use a scope instead of a table/datasheet if you are unsure. In this case they probably used the wrong type of cap or it was a bad serie. Regarding your video. The datasheet states impedance at 100kHz, that is not the same as ESR. But with bigger caps the reactance is low enough at 100 kHz to make much of a difference. Most cheap ESR meters measure impedance and not the real part of the impedance. In situ measurement is handy but far from reliable. I use the dissipation factor (D on your meter) and every datasheet states that. Including the allowable max value over time. Most times 2x the max value stated. Do noy use your meter in auto mode. Set it at the right frequence and mode (Cs, D(orRs) and frequency, for caps as in the TRX most times 120Hz) That speeds up things a lot. An other very import parameter when replacing caps is the max allowable ripple current (current, not voltage ! ) I often get instruments here where the only bad caps are the ones someone replaced befor. When I look up the datasheet they are most times just the wrong type. You can use a very fine low ESR Panasonic cap as a replacement, but if that has a max ripple of 800 mA and the real ripple is 1500mA , that fine cap will not survive very long. Ripple voltage is important too but not for trhe cap, the datasheet states current. Fred

[@MrCarlsonsLab]

Great Job Peter! Those caps are a real issue in all older gear. Getting rid of them was a very good idea! I have come across Kenwood's where they have leaked so bad, they destroyed the surrounding IC's by making the PCB conductive between traces. That scope I just did will get all the caps on the acquisition board replaced.... I may even use newer production SM tantalum's. (they didn't due to cost) Oddly enough, I have come across gear from the 70's where the caps are fine internally and externally. They have the ability to make caps last..... (look at my TEK 547's, all original electrolytic's and still fine) It would be nice to return to a time when quality was as important as money. Take care Peter! Again... Great video!

[@TRXLab]

+Mr Carlson's Lab Hi Paul, yes absolutely this crappy caps can make so much damage.... Thanks for comment friend! Take care 73

[@PelDaddy]

+Mr Carlson's Lab I noticed Peter even used your phrase in dealing with these caps. They HAVE TO GO! I hear myself saying that when I remove old caps, thinking of your videos. Both of you have taught me a lot. Thanks.

[@KD0CAC]

Peter , again a Kenwood TS-850 . I ended up with 3 of these from estates and did a lot of searching in internet for what to look for , for my shack . 1st thing watching your video , I wanted to see numbers on the unobtainium chips , the 1st run of these radios , the part number ended with " 11 " and the 2nd run ended with " 12 " - so the up graded board & chips in that rig . The rumor going around I read was Kenwood got stuck with counterfeit electrolytics and the chemistry was not copied correctly . After watching your video , I am going to go back to my 2 newer rigs & check for ESR . My 1st rig was an older unit with leaky caps & older chips " 11 " and replaced . There were numerous other electrolytics in these rigs that had known leaky problems common , all through hole , on the display board and a couple other boards . Lot of good old radio well worth keeping going and the 850 is one of them ;) Thanks again John

[@TRXLab]

+KD0CAC I fully agree John this radios are worth to take care on. Thanks for stopping by. 73

[@ninaevans4501]

We're with you all the way Peter. We won't have certain viewers making ridiculous comments about your work ethics, and the posting them. We both love your channel, and regard your repair work is of the HIGHEST quality. Unfortunately, some people don't always think the same way (that's there opinion which they're entitled to, but are more often than not wrong). Can't wait for your next video. 73s buddy and wish you good DX.

[@TRXLab]

+Nina Evans Hi Nina, thank you very much for your kind words which are highly appreciated! Well you can't change people at all.... Okay have a nice time! All the best and 73 Peter

[@radwandiesca3215]

Sir peter, thank you once again for your great educational videos... you’re so generous passing your knowledge to others like me. God bless and Good health to you sir peter.

[@henryseese1117]

Very interest with the way you diagnose the problem and fix it proper way. I had TS-805S Kenwood radio and I had couple problem with it. Looking into your instruction how to check problem on my radio by following your video. The radio never been open up yet.

[@jwrtiger]

Very nice video and well produced. It was refreshing to that the Panasonic table you used for the ESR stated a test frequency of 100 kHz and you had the LCR meter set to 100 kHz. I have seen many KZbin videos where the presenter was not getting the proper capacitance value or ESR value because they had their test frequency set to an improper value. Again very nice work!

[@TRXLab]

glad that you liked it

[@mikesradiorepair]

Another excellent video Peter. Nice to see one without damaged circuit traces for once.

[@TRXLab]

+MikesRadioRepair Hi Mike, yes you are right we were able to avoid any damage in the future. Thanks for stopping by 73

[@TheRadioShop]

Great video as always Peter. Man those caps, always caps. Good explanation on why to look at manufactures data sheets instead of charts posted on the internet. Big thumbs up my friend.

[@TRXLab]

+The Radio Shop Thank you Buddy it never is boring hihi 73 my firend

[@michaeldavidheit]

Danke Peter, great videos. A good friend of mine has given me a TS850SAT (YES for Free) in working condition; so, when it arrives I plan forst to check those caps! I work professionally on a bench as an electronics test engineer and to be honest your ERS tutorial is the best I've ever had! Not even my college professors could approach that subject with clear hands on use like you have. 73 Mike AD7VV

[@gregorywest2029]

Great video Peter, Customer was right in bring it to you to replace them bad or not. So his radio won't get damaged in the furture from leaking caps. Thanks, Greg

[@TRXLab]

+Gregory West Hi Greg, yes you are right! Thanks for comment 73

[@nunolopes2885]

Another fine work Peter. and looking at the manufacture tables is always the best thing to do it. Well, I've to start checking my 1000MP and my TS-870, for this. I see lot of work, if I've to change it all. Nuno - CT2IRY

[@TRXLab]

+Nuno Lopes Hi Nuno, yes that is true.. Yeah if you have to change them it is really a lot of work but may be you are lucky and they are still okay. Thanks for watching and comment! All the best and 73

[@radiok2ua]

Thanks for another great video! I have (and love) the TS-850S I bought new in 1991, and it fortunately has not yet leaked--but I am replacing all the capacitors now because I want the radio to last another 28 years!--73, K2UA

[@g1fsh]

I totally agree with Buddy Peter that was a superb explanation of why we should follow manufacturers data Nice video my friend and very well explained.

[@TRXLab]

+Gary g1fsh Glad that you like it Gary. Thanks for stopping by 73

[@injoelsgarage3934]

Peter, great video and tutorial. I have been going to the manufactures specs for some time now and glad in doing so. Those cap charts on the net are really useless. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us. Joel

[@TRXLab]

Yeah and the charts on the web do not mention the test frequency which makes it even worth... Thanks for feed back Joel 73

[@juanabreu5127]

Great video. I think that if all those capacitors are connected to the same power rail, their ESR are in parallel and their individually ESR could be even greater than the 4.5 ohms you measured. It could have been good idea to measure their ESR once removed, just for comparison. Thanks, keep going.

[@TRXLab]

+Juan Abreu Hi Juan, yes that is true but as the resistor is to hight even in parallel that means that the result tested individually can be only more worth.. so they have to go. Thanks for feed back! All the best and Cheers

[@robertcalkjr.8325]

Good job Peter. Thanks. Replacing the caps makes sense considering how old they are.

[@TRXLab]

+Robert Calk Jr. Thank you Robert! 73

[@Jo-lw2df]

Very pleased to watch your videos about capacitors. Leaned a lot. Many Thanks. Jo

[@raccoonnyc]

I always learn something from your videos. Thanks for posting.

[@TRXLab]

+raccoonnyc I'm always glad that you like it. 73

[@batman4e]

There is an old Latin saying "Primum non nocere." First do not harm. Changing the caps could go wrong even for advanced technicians. There is a big risk breaking the circuit lines. I would have not changed anything on such a mint condition rare TS-850. In such cases one should inspect regularly the board for leakage and at the first drop of leakage (if it ever happens, it is not sure that it will happen) change the capacitors, but not years before. What I have found is that the YM6631 or YM66312 chips get very warm and with the metallic case of the CAR assembly act as an oven. These unobtainable chips not only cook the capacitors but seldom destroy themselves by this overheating. I would recommend adding forced ventilation to this area (perhaps a small fan) or at least small heat-sinks to the YM6631(2) chips (but this will help only the chips, not the capacitors). However I would not touch and alter units in mint condition. The capacitors should have been measured also after extraction. To compare in-circuit capacitors with out of circuit capacitors is not fully correct. The circuit can greatly influence the impedance of the capacitor. Anyway, I congratulate to the technician that he did not harm the radio. Nice work! :-)

[@Jo-lw2df]

Very pleased to watch your videos about capacitors. Learned a lot. Many Thanks. Jo

[@TRXLab]

Thank you for watching. All the best and Cheers

[@ninaevans4501]

Changing suspect SMD capacitors is ALWAYS a good idea. The, "If it aint broken, don't try to fix it" as posted by an earlier commentator is NOT an attitude to adopt. If there's a fault, it is only professional to get it sorted. Watch "12voltvids" website and see what he thinks of SMD capacitors. Another great video Peter! Keep it up buddy! Thumbs up :O

[@TRXLab]

+Nina Evans Hi Nina, fully agree! Thanks for stopping by and comment! 73

[@millstap]

Thanks for this. I just bought a Peak ESR70 thinking it was going to be an easy test only to find that the measurement told me nothing and I could not get the ESR values from Vishay even though they did answer my email and said they would provide them. I was changing bigger 400-600V caps in an old 1959 Fender guitar amp. I could not tell the difference in the 60 year old caps vs. the new caps using the ESR method. Actually, the new caps had a higher ESR reading than the old caps. It completely confused me and now I feel I bought a meter that I will probably never use again. I guess it is off to Ebay.

[@dinosworkshop6870]

Terrific as usual.....Great piece of work. Tutorials are the best. Both thumbs up!!!

[@TRXLab]

+Satellite_Guy Glad to see you! Thanks for comment! All the best 73

[@dennisqwertyuiop]

Thank you for video, great work Peter!

[@TRXLab]

+DENNIS N Thank you Dennis. All the best Cheers

[@ralph9987]

Great video Peter dance. I would have liked to see what the incircuit impedance was of the new ones and also the impedance of the old one out of circuit.

[@ohmmeters]

As usual a very good and educating video. I just love them. Thank You very much! (I dream that You one day will get a Icom IC-7100 on your table and that You find out how to professionally modify it's bad ALC behavour on SSB that gives a very low power output and also makes distortion on the modulation on all modes)

[@TRXLab]

+Lars Johansson Hi Lars, thank you for feed-back! You may believe it or not a IC-7100 mod video is already produced. Coming soon. 73

[@chenli1460]

War eine sehr hilfreiche Information. Einfach perfekt, mehr muß man nicht sagen. Danke

[@TRXLab]

Hoffe es macht es nun einfacher das Gerät zu benutzen....

[@RadioamateurKjellSvendsen]

The more you do take the time to mix the very basic with the pure professional, the better things seem to get! But, I was very surprised you did not look any further at any other boards? I reaolly do love your videos, btw! :0)

[@herbertsusmann986]

Peter, another super video! I agree with changing old electrolytic caps as a matter of course. Labor is not that much and why risk failure down the road?

[@TRXLab]

+Herbert Susmann Hi Herbert, fully agree! Thanks for watching and comment All the best Cheers.

[@zooyawk4526]

I've noticed the 850 having a very distinctive audio from any other Kenwood. Does anyone know why? Excellent video. Thanks.

[@TRXLab]

+4Q2 42Q Hi, from my pint of view all Kenwoods have good audio...73

[@cassiofonte8172]

Great video as usual Peter. Always useful information. Thanks!

[@TRXLab]

+Cassio Fonte Hi Cassio, thanks for feed-back. All the best 73

[@stevec5000]

It seemed like you were getting nearly the same reading from all of those capacitors along the front edge of the board. If they are all in parallel on the same power rail and you measure one are your really only measuring that one or are you measuring them all in parallel at the same time? How can one be isolated from the others so it can be measured by itself?

[@GiorgioFirpo_IU1BKT]

Peter, thanks again for share your knowledge... very instructive video.....

[@TRXLab]

+Giorgio Firpo Hi Giorgio, thanks for watching and for comment. All the best and 73

[@msaradio7455]

I've referred to this video three or four times for the close up shots of this board LOL

[@JuanIgnacioPucheu]

Hi! great video. What do you think of replacing this capacitors with tantalium ones?

[@nazeerabdulrahuman9526]

Hi Peater Thank you for the great video

[@BrockNanson]

Interesting. I wonder though, if you are looking at a recent manufacturer's table, would that be applicable to the capacitor they made...what...30 years ago or so? Would technology have improved to reduce the ESR in those years, or would it be the same value then and now, fresh from the factory? 🤔

[@TRXLab]

Yes, today you have different sorts of lytics, low ESR types and "normal" types and of course good and bad brands...

[@majordisappointment8692]

Good video i would have changed the capacitors if i knew they were a problem for the same radio in the past.

[@TRXLab]

+mac theknife Hi, yes fully agree! Thanks for watching Cheers

[@stevensims3342]

Really enjoying your videos on how to effectively test capacitors. I have a small GE cassette recorder that has some Marcon and Rubycon brand electrolytic caps in it. I am having some difficulty finding anything on the Marcon caps specifically as searches lead to Nippon Chemi-con which I assume may be Marcon but under a new name? It is a 6.3v 470uf +105* Marcon 8335 3VM that I was using for test search but I can't find anything on this "Marcon" brand. I can find some on Rubycon caps though. Is there no way then to double check these Marcon's have the correct values when testing? Any tips, much thanks! The issue with this little cassette player is low output from speaker. At first it wasn't working (no sound) tested a few caps with a basic meter and found one that was suspicious. Replaced with equal uf value but higher voltage and after changing out that capacitor, it started to output sound but it wasn't immediately after. I was actually just poking around at the record and play head and it started to output sound. Trying to figure out what the issue is now as I have one to compare it to (exact model 3-5157B) which is much louder. It's been strange. Like maybe replacing that cap allowed another one to be energized properly? Am new to this really so I don't know. Essentially the player arrived not working properly after some poking around its functioning better but the speaker volume is still low, even at max (the other one is much much louder at max). So I've learned you need a rather sophisticated approach to testing capacitors which is facilitated by using the meter on screen. I may have to pick one up! Oh wow just checking some other sources I should probably replace all the marcon caps as they are really old correct? As in the 8335 code means 35th week of 1983?! Seemingly fixed low sound output by replacing a 1000uf 10v cap with another 1000uf but 16v and the volume is much louder!

[@TRXLab]

The brand of the caps is not important as long it is a quality brans like i.e. Panasonic or so...more important are the values..

[@stevensims3342]

@@TRXLab Understood and thanks for the reply. I had to wrap up shop after installing the 1000uF cap and it was working. Testing further (following day) it started outputting low sound again. Nearly stopping for the day I decided to go ahead and swap out the next biggest cap at 220uF. This seems to have solved the problem, again. Speaking of, thanks again for sharing your knowledge!

[@PapasDino]

The vast difference between ESR charts has always bugged me as well; if you can relate the cap to a brand and get the data sheet always the best way to go. 73 - Dino KL0S

[@TRXLab]

+Dino Papas Hi Dino, yes it is so easy to get confused by all the crap available on the net. Thanks for stopping by 73

[@PelDaddy]

Funny flowers! Nice video. Thanks for sharing.

[@TRXLab]

+PelDaddy LOL yeah somehow funny flowers... Thanks for watching 73

[@sighoa4489]

Hello peter. where are you located?

[@adfalmeida10]

Hi, Peter! great job ! tank you for super explanation!

[@TRXLab]

+Adilson Almeida Hi Adilson, no problem you are welcome! 73

[@wolfhawg]

I have found that the caps with the black markings leak less than the blue ones

[@TRXLab]

Hi Bob, yes the blue caps are the older ones which are more faulty today..

[@TKomoski]

Thumbs up Peter, are the capacitors on that board different from the others in the unit. Why did you not test other boards with the same caps. Or if you did is it just that board that is always at fault. Great videos as always look forward to the next one, Cheers.

[@TRXLab]

+T Komoski Hi, we have three areas where we have problems with leaking caps with this radio. Local board, display board and audio unit. I have tested the ESR on all known suspected caps but those were all in tolerance. Thanks for watching. 73

[@psionl0]

"What would I do"? If it were my rig then definitely replace them. For the customer I guess it depends on your servicing prices. They may prefer annual inspections with replacement only when deterioration becomes more serious. On a lighter note, that rig was in such pristine condition that I am surprised that the customer didn't hand it over to you in its original packaging. ;)

[@TRXLab]

The minimum one can do is checking the LO box from time to time but it id for sure better to do as soon as possible.. Thanks for comment

[@DonDegidio]

Peter, As always a great video.

[@TRXLab]

+Donald D'Egidio Thank you Donald! 73

[@bundylovess]

Very good information Peter thank you

[@TRXLab]

Glad that you like it 73

[@rienvandervorm3032]

Verry instructional about ESR and the aging of cappicitors Peter Thank you Rien PA3GAG

[@TRXLab]

+Rien van der Vorm Hi Rien, thanks for feed-back. All the best 73

[@DeeegerD]

Good to know those charts are "indications", but what if you don't know what brand of caps you have?

[@TRXLab]

+Digger D Hi Digger, very good question. Well on most caps you find the brand name right written on to it. On SMD caps you find codes which you can search in the internet. If there is no way to determine the manufacturer use the indication tables first and if the cap is still suspect recap it. Thanks for asking

[@DeeegerD]

TRXBench Thank you for your reply. Makes sense. I was thinking about products from China with the noname caps which I suppose should be recapped from the start lol ;)

[@TRXLab]

+Digger D LOL yes that is right :-)

[@DeeegerD]

TRXBench BTW - My DE-5000 arrived - very nice and accurate meter. I compared the readings with my older BK Precision 878 and they are within 0.1% of each other. I calibrated the 878 last year - simple procedure with a scope. DE-5000 has better ranges, more frequency selections and of course 4 wire probes. Can't go wrong for the price. Your "long" video on the DE-5000 was the deciding factor to get one, thanks.

[@TRXLab]

+Digger D ah very good glad that you like the DE-5000! So have fun with the meter in the future 73

[@henryseese1117]

In other word; which way I can send my radio to your repair shop.

[@Drforbin941]

Peter, so you recommend looking at the spec sheet for the cap to determine the max ESR value? Or is it ok to use generic spec sheet?

[@TRXLab]

+Doctor Forbin Hi, I recommend looking on the spec sheets. Generic sheets can be used if the test values are over the values what the generic sheet is telling. Hope that helps. 73

[@GiorgioFirpo_IU1BKT]

A question from a beginner .... :)) .... Peter just a question, but measuring condensers directly on the board there is not the danger to get wrong values due to the interference of other component ? Thanks for your reply .......

[@TRXLab]

+Giorgio Firpo Hi Giorgio, very good question! As the ESR is normally under 1 Ohm and rather more much lower like that this cap value is the lowest impedance in circuit and thus you can test the ESR in circuit without an interference. Hope that helps to understand..73

[@GiorgioFirpo_IU1BKT]

+TRXBench. Thanks a lot for the answer Peter, good evening .... ;)

[@DJCaverna]

its not a good idea buy old kenwood without a technical repair to prevent leaking caps or out of range uf ... Another great video ... 73

[@TRXLab]

+DJ Caverna Haroldo Bradaschia Neto Hi Neto, yes that is obviously right LOL... Thanks for stopping by 73

[@patrickp4827]

Vielen Dank!

[@technos123]

Very interesting thanks.

[@TRXLab]

Thank you

[@carlbrutananadilewski3345]

Time to recap.

[@TRXLab]

+Carl Brutananadilewski Hi Carl, yes you are right time for recap. Thanks for stopping by 73

[@MrWasim100100]

nice video

[@swansealoaf1999]

Where did you obtain that chart

[@t1d100]

Good info

[@radiobigman47]

good job and nice 850

[@TRXLab]

+kc9kuh Thanks you! 73

[@reynaldomarabe6863]

Better to change old caps it is more cheaper than to leave and destroy the whole circuit board. !00% very good decision.

[@TRXLab]

fully agreed! 73

[@nspization]

does DE-5000 support esr in-circuit correctly ?

[@TRXLab]

nsp yes of course

[@nspization]

Any Clue what is test voltage of this meter for esr in circuit measuring ?

[@nspization]

how to protect DE-5000 from capacitor charge any trick for this ?

[@richardgray8593]

What is your primary language? I can't nail down your accent. It kinda sounds French to me, but what do I know? Nice vids, by the way.

[@TRXLab]

Hi Richard it is German...73

[@richardgray8593]

Thanks for the reply. I would have guessed wrong.

[@TRXLab]

no problem :^)

[@petchharrison]

get um out i have a 850 comming in the next few days i will get um out to .. jeff..m0prf

[@joopterwijn]

THE ohm measurement while on the board is unreliable! The rest of the rest of the components deterrence the impedance your are measuring. Always unsolder one leg the make a reliable measurement.

[@TRXLab]

+Joop Terwijn Hi Joop, I'm sorry but in this case your assumption is wrong. We are not probing DC Ohm we are rather more probing an impedance with a test frequency of 100KHZ. This method is golden practice as a capacitors impedance is the lowest impedance around so you can manage it this way. Search for ESR testing on google... Thanks for comment. Cheers

[@dirkreisig4465]

+TRXBench Is it not so that these capacitors have a very low inductance between each other if they are on the same rails? (Which was not clear in the video, but I think is very likely) If that is the case, your measurement is heavily influenced by nearby capacitors.

[@TRXLab]

+Dirk Reisig Hi Dirk, if you have caps in parallel then the over all ESR goes down so you could be fouled by a very low impedance but not by a to high....Hope that helps as explanation All the best.