Trying to buy the A. Lange & Soehne Odysseus...

[@atl3630]

I totally understand this type of behavior from Lange’s perspective. They have a small amount of watches relative to demand. So who do you sell them to? Your most loyal customers. Everyone else can wait. It makes sense and is actually kind of fair.

[@gordonl1601]

I've been on both Rolex and AP waiting lists many times and I can agree that the idea may be fair, but their process for selectig who to give watches to is often not. I personally know people who present themselves as avid collectors and spend 6 figures on watches yearly but are insted flippers. The moment they get the pieces they end up on chrono24 with a 50% markup. They do this for a living. And the only thing I hate more than waiting lists is allowing these guys to profit.

[@ronanderson7843]

You have the power to buy or not buy. I prefer to spend my money where I'm respected as a customer and the seller is grateful for my business.

[@morningwaves]

It’s business, it’s not personal.

[@davine8111]

In my opinion, real luxury is that I have a choice whether to buy or not. I don't play this games from this kind AD's. They can hold their watches, so another brand is happy to have a new customer. These awful business practices from some brands exist, because people let that happen to them.

[@silverlakeas]

I won't play the game. They can keep their watches. Waiting lists are becoming ridiculous especially when some of the so called customers on them are probably grey dealers!

[@SirMopy]

exactly this!

[@vecernicek2]

Right. Imagine you want to buy a Maserati, but you need to buy a couple Jeeps and an Alfa Romeo first. What kind of BS is that.

[@vecernicek2]

@Tom The Fish They actually need customers, don't they? Their strategy in the past decade or so is to cater to a small portion of their potential customer pool while vilifying the rest. Maybe it's a good business strategy, but I highly doubt that it will work long-term.

[@vecernicek2]

@Tom The Fish The pool of potential customers can vastly diminish with a new economic crisis or when watches go out of vogue. So this strategy works in the moment, not long term, just as I said.

[@vecernicek2]

@Tom The Fish I call BS. You seem to have no arguments. Vilifying potentical customer base never pays off long term. I could name many examples of that strategy backfiring.

[@marcoberger2442]

Lange is producing ~7000 Watches a year. I don't really know how many Odysseus but not much 500 or less. They are special and made as a present for already customers. The Club as you saying. I got my yesterday and I only owned before my beloved Saxonia Moonphase. I was waiting (not really because it is unnecessary luxury) 1,5 years. Now I wear it with the feeling of something special that's what it is! 😉

[@daddykool9507]

I heard Seiko is following Rolex,Patek and Lange path! You need to spend at least $25 to put your name for waiting list for Seiko SKX

[@BruceWilliams]

Yes you need only apply if you've bought some Seiko 5 in the past. Maybe bundle with a ladies solar model 😉

[@matthiaskrause1155]

I hear they also withhold the papers, so you can't flip your Seiko "with box and papers".

[@LuisFranciscoAguilar]

lol

[@obud3777]

Just buy a Vacheron Constantin Overseas you can get one at retail price no waiting list!

[@robertaranda2278]

To buy the stainless steel Odysseus, you need to have bought one A Lange and Sohne watch . That’s the criteria. I respect the fact they are upfront with that. If you been a customer you can Ofer that particular watch. Rolex on the other hand is a whole different beast. Many Lange watches you can roll in there and order. White gold Odysseus, zeitwerk date , Lange 1’s the list goes on. Lange only makes less than 10,000 watches a year, spread out across all the lines. Rolex produces way way way more watches .

[@originalandcreative]

I'll take the Omega experience over Rolex any day, all day.

[@ALSVCJK]

Except if you're trying to get the snoopy speedmasters

[@wineman88881]

Good answer, reality is reality. I have to say I did go to look at this watch at the boutique (and I own a Lange 1815) and I felt like I was being grilled "do you have a Lange now" "where did you buy it" The sales guy was clearly sizing me up. I totally get that they need to reward best customers with the high demand limited pieces, but they could be a bit more polite to the average Joe who just want to look at it or put it on the wrist and take a photo.

[@TKsheng]

They could be polite, but truth is there are many who fake to be able to afford it to just go in and waste alot of time and effort and then demand things out of their place. Its a store not a museum, they don’t charge for trying and looking and photos. It’s an everyday thing and salespeople get worn out from that. Coming from that perspective, i can understand their situation, since they have targets and quotas to hit, and they serve customers by turns, every turn wasted might be an opportunity lost to serve another buying customer to hit their target, thus a risk to their paycheck and job evaluation. That is why i normally do not want to go in a luxury store when i am not ready to buy to save their time, and to save mine from getting grilled 😅😂 if not i will end up being the ones that create this stereotype to the salespeoplle to drive those who are genuinely ready to buy away.

[@dinner_workingsly]

Man hard for me to make a comment on this without offensive language. This has left a sour taste in my mouth as well, luxury brands can keep their products. This is why most people hate the elite, myself included. 🤢

[@wristwatch_holic9722]

Agreed . I am tired of Rolex playing mind games so I went to other Brand like JLC and so happy with its quality and beauty (plus discount is available unlike Rolex). Also, I am not comfortable spending over 15k for the watch yet although I make 6 figures annual salary. I remind myself that collecting watch is hobby but investment.

[@ssslovak47]

For me jlc is number 1!

[@pilotstyle123]

The Oddysseus availability is not the same as rolex. One is artificial one is real scarcity. Lange is open about the quantities of odysseus they can produce and its not much as they still train people to make the movements. Lange knows this is a special product in their line and of course they will give it to special customers. Rolex makes 50k Daytonas when they could produce and sell 200k. Thats not the same.

[@jacc88888]

Tom The Fish Maybe that the scarcity of Daytonas is ‘less real’ because Rolex have the capability to make far more Daytonas than they do but choose not to. Whereas Lange can’t produce many more Oddysseus models due to the amount of man hours required to build them.

[@BruceWilliams]

I'm with Tom. Rolexes are produced at higher numbers yes, but production is still a year long process and Rolex chooses not to overflood the demand. They aren't as available as some make them out to be. Some ads may only get a handful in a given year

[@jacc88888]

Bruce Williams I still believe there is the potential for Rolex to make more however. Especially as there is so much machining and much less hand finishing with Rolexes compared to a Lange. It’s just that Rolex choose not to, which I guess I understand from the perspective of maintaining brand exclusivity and brand image. It’s a shame for the average enthusiast though as Rolexes are often beyond their reach.

[@gregorypaulbox3035]

The Odysseus is a dog. Buy a blue Vacheron Overseas.

[@wolper2155]

Hi. I agree with you. The VC with blue dail Looks stunning.

[@ssslovak47]

Agree!

[@jayrothman7281]

The vacheron doesn’t hack though... For a 20k+ watch that’s a dealbreaker for me

[@taksohne3251]

Odysseus looks ugly as hell..

[@sigve6165]

No

[@Disinf3ctant]

Don't play that game with dealers. Don't go on waitlists, don't let them offload dogs to you. There are other brands with more integrity. That's why I wear omega, not Rolex

[@kaiserphoenix01]

lol have u asked for a snoopy speedy before?? all luxury brands r the same bro.

[@KarimDeLakarim]

So to see your best stuff we have to be a preferred patreon customer now?

[@BruceWilliams]

I would appreciate the support if you are inclined to checkout the content and community I am building. If you have no desire, no worries! Continue to enjoy my KZbin channel.

[@samuelball8775]

Bruce Williams think they’re being facetious Bruce. You’re agreeing with ADs holding back stock for ‘best’ customer’s.

[@beckwithtl]

You don’t have to watch Bruce’s KZbin channel to be a part of his patreon community. That would be more akin to what ALS is doing, Bruce gives us all this content for free, and says if you’d like more, join his Patreon group.

[@KarimDeLakarim]

@@beckwithtl I,m not being nasty to Bruce or anyone else.I like his vid's

[@morningwaves]

I have to watch reviews of ladies watches before I have the privilege of watching reviews of steel sport watches lol

[@03flhtcui]

This is something that many people do not want to accept, but the realty is there are luxury watches that sell for obscene amounts of money on the grey market for several times more than the MSRP. The AP Royal Oak (jumbo) is a perfect example of this. The were only 250 pieces made of this watch which sold for $34,800 MSRP. On the grey market, this watch has sold for twice that amount. In fact, I've even heard of prices as high as $80,000. This is simply a supply vs demand issue. When AD can sell a watch to somebody in the morning and that same person can turn right around and sell that same watch in the afternoon for tens of thousands of dollars more than he/she originally paid, then you better believe they are going to be very selective on who they sell a watch too. That is especially true when the demand far exceeds supply. In those cases, with the demand being so high and the competition being so fierce, the AD's naturally prioritize sales to their best customers first. Then if there are any leftovers, the rest of the watches will go to those other buyers waiting on the list. This shouldn't surprise anyone. In fact, it's really common sense if you stop and think about it.

[@michaeledwardlenzi]

Journe, Lange, Rolex, AP...you pay to play. Literally. You buy your way in to the country club and keep on spending. Then you become a preferred customer. It's all about patronage unfortunately. But the society is structured that way. Wu Tang Clan wrote a song about the idea, CREAM. As for the watch, it is just a watch if you look at it coldly and clinically. It is really no more special than many other watches of its type. Try a VC Overseas with a blue dial. So many other watch fish in the watch sea. Or buy the Lange on the secondary market if only it can sing the sweet tune that you want to hear. Good luck in the quest. --Michael

[@dgb6355]

Great topic here, I have been waiting for a Daytona for 4 years now and I don’t think they will ever call me. In the end buying a watch at double the price from a grey dealer remains cheaper than buying many watches you don’t want just to earn the right to put your name on a waiting list for a popular watch. The grey dealers know that and set the prices accordingly.

[@josephlomas3141]

For the most part I completely agree. The practice of vetting clients should be there to ensure that hot items don’t get scooped up by people just trying to make a quick profit and brand loyalty should be rewarded. Where the watch world differs to the motor trade (of which I have 25 years professional experience) is that the franchisees in the motor trade don’t do the vetting, the manufacturer does - based on the info supplied by the dealer. The manufacturer scours the used/grey market and makes it their business to know every vehicle for sale and its history. Both dealers and clients can be legally taken to task if they have contravened their respective agreements. In the watch world this would not appear to be as closely regulated - considering the respective volumes most likely impossible. Therefore there is the possibility that AD’s could participate in underhand tactics to maximize their return on the limited/most desirable pieces. Simple solution imo - better balance demand and supply.

[@henrywest7217]

That does sounds painful. I can't completely understand why he wouldn't move on to something else. I would. It's not just luxury brands that have policies. It's a really nice piece but there're others.

[@albertmeyer8983]

Bruce is right, it's just the way it is. However there are many nice brands without waiting lists...

[@arkadipta6667]

That’s a great brand ... just a love at first sight watch!... but it hurts to see the prerequisite to get them ... -an 18 yr old watch lover ! Hopefully will be successful to get these timepieces in future :) by working hard !

[@andicalin4679]

Totally agree with you about the pooitics of expensive brands. But let me qsk you this. Since they are reserved to preferred customers how come resellers get them and offer them on the grey market ?

[@Wvk5zc]

Resellers indirectly help them justify the price increase in the future.

[@TKsheng]

All luxury brands are like that. The true meaning of luxury for many are the ability to get more out of a service or a product, and that mostly is all about the money. The more you spend, the more perks and exclusivity you get. It has always been this way, take the amex black card for example, compared to normal credit card, just owning it gives you the extra perks, and to have that means spending more whether in annual fee or annual spending swiping the card. And because it is only reserved for the “select few” who are rich, it is exclusive. Because of social media noawadays, we are getting more aware of these things, love it or hate it, its been like this since the medieval times, an example will be something like... the royal families always get the best things. But the trade-offs for social media is that many things are hyped now especially the entry-level products of many luxury brands if you realise, like sports steel watches compared to precious metal ones and complicated ones that costs way more... this is due to the cold hard truth that many “normal people” are trying to get their dream brands and products that they can afford, which generally are the entry-level ones. That is why the extra demand brought about the increased hype. The secondary market used to be mostly selling used products at depreciated prices before instagram and youtube, but ever since more demand comes from a better exposed society through social media, many things are selling at a premium for what they are without actual extra benefits. Thus people who do not want to pay that flock back to the retail stores to get them on retail price, driving demand there... benefitting the brands. Truth be told, if these brands were to manufacture more of the highly sought after products, like their entry-level steel watches for example, it defeats the purpose exclusivity or luxury which the brands survive on... if you sell watches to every tom dick and harry who wants it, it will just be another brand selling to the masses, thus will reduce the demand and the name and reputation of the brand, destroying it. So i get it, even though you might hate it if you dont get what you want to buy sometimes, but love it when you get to buy it and am sure that not many will be owning the same thing as you.

[@hambone988ubet]

A brand that comes out with an Uber and desirable product is the latest release of JLC! You don’t have to go through an application process to purchase!

[@eldiabolico3750]

Being a Rolex client for years I must say that unfortunately the official dealers are right. The “casual” buyer will spend 10K one time in a lifetime and disappear. He will probably not even pay for service in an official AD. On the other hand, I’ve bought already 5 new watches in the last 2 years, it makes sense that I will get priority when reserving my next watch as I am kind of a “stable” source of income and they also need to pay their bills...

[@BruceWilliams]

This is true, the practice applies with multiple businesses as well. My old job favored certain groups that brought a lot of business our way

[@DavidSmith-zu6eu]

I didn't know that many people actually wanted the Odysseus. 🤢

[@lchamp7946]

🤣🤣🤣 Right!

[@sadaka201]

So sad to hear that. Go for the VC Oversears in blue. Better looking and a bit less pricy..

[@ALSVCJK]

Oh man has that ship sailed now. Overseas in blue is now harder to get than Odysseus

[@michaelkessler9467]

Tell em to do one. I moved to Omega, bought a Speedy and now buying a Planet Ocean. OK, they’re not as horological high end as PP but just as good as Rolex

[@user-pd1hp8vb6b]

I am a Lange client. I own the Datograph up/down and the Grand Lange 1 (both in pink gold. I am on a wait list for the Odysseus and have been told it will be 2 years before I get one. If someone just walked off the street and was handed an Odysseus, I would chew out my local boutique as well as the Wilheim. So, I completely get why companies sell their sought after products to their most valuable customers first. Think of an airline, it treats their most frequent fliers a lot different than other customers. It makes business sense. Getting upset about this is ridiculous. Would you want an airline to treat a customer that flies 100K miles a year the same as some that takes one flight a year? Should they give an upgrade to the person that has flown 100K miles with them or give the free upgrade to first class to the customer taking his first flight of the year. Anyone that thinks through this will see that ALL businesses across all industries treat their most frequent and loyal customers better than an infrequent or first time customer. That is business common sense. Johanes needs to get his panties out of a twist and think logically and from business perspective. Or he can F off and go purchase some shitbird timepiece elsewhere

[@wuyeah1980]

It is not a GAME, these brands aren’t playing. I agree with Bruce luxury brands are protecting themselves. If it were your business, someone who love your product and have capability purchased several without blink of eye, would you treat them differently to show your appreciation to a loyal customer? You would. Especially these rich folks won’t need to liquidate their watches for cash as often. Luckily ALS have number of beautiful watches that you can go after without any regret. If everyone buying watches from gray market eventually we will have no watch stores to visit. Then we’ll add another thing to complain about. Our shopping behavior already hard for AD to survive.

[@maskito4256]

Wait a second, so in order to see your best content I have to be a “preferred customer” and support you via patreon?

[@lemmontree1]

Porsche: "Always build one Porsche less than the people want." - That's just how it is.

[@lebojay]

@Lemon Tree Ferrari too. In the car world it’s not uncommon for special models to be offered only to loyal customers. You can’t walk into a dealership and buy a LaFerrari or Porsche 918. You have to be invited to purchase them.

[@wolper2155]

Hi Lemon. You can get Porsche as much as you want in Germany. Greetings from Germany.

[@lebojay]

I don’t think it’s a matter of greed by the watchmaker. They can only make so many watches, and there is more demand than supply, so it makes sense that they should reward their most loyal customers with dibs on low volume models. FWIW my local Patek AD told me that there are no special conditions for ordering a Nautilus or Aquanaut. Just a five year waiting list. So different watchmakers take different approaches when demand exceeds supply. I’m not sure that Lange’s approach is worse than the alternatives. I wouldn’t feel like staying loyal to a brand that asked me to wait five years if I am a top customer. Hypothetical, of course. I am by no means among any watchmaker’s top customers.

[@pth8888]

Hmm... then just walk away, don’t play the game. Lange preowned price is soft compared to Rolex and AP so wait a few years and you can get it at 40% less from used market.

[@MichaelAndersen_DK]

If they keep being selective, so does the clients. I'd say screw that AD and spend your hard earned money at a nicer place.

[@fire_watch7735]

Good take Bruce! I for one want to thank Rolex, Patek, AP & Lange for protecting their existing customers and not overproducing your brand and watering down your products for your existing customers. New collectors have to understand that building a relationship takes work if your want popular models and that takes years. People just want what they want and they want it now... Too bad😪

[@BruceWilliams]

A solid point that many do not consider!

[@fire_watch7735]

@@BruceWilliams Hey Bruce, I was watching Showcase Watches and he mentioned to try out Williams Watches on Discord. Is that you and if so can I respectfully ask for access to that group? Thanks for considering and I hope you and your family are doing well during the pandemic. Regards

[@Eddyfromremaxltd]

Great video! I’ll be emailing you my experience with my local Rolex ad

[@herebarian]

My watch hobby is fairly recent, and I've been loading up on a lot of videos, pictures and forums and been lusting over some beautiful 'looking' watches from Seiko (presage cocktail time) and Tissot (Le Locle powermatic 80) to name a few. But I recently went to a store and looked at these in person, and was fairly disappointed with the overall size and look of them on my wrist. I guess I've now found that the maximum perfect size for my seven inch wrist is 38mm and minimum around 35mm. Anything smaller looks diminutive to me, and anything larger looks comical. However in India, it gets very difficult to find a watch for men in that size which also looks beautiful and can be passed down to the next generation, in a price range of between $200 - $500, which is the premium price range considering our country's socio-economic conditions. That specific Tissot and Seiko, while great watches in their own right, didn't look good on my wrist and it disappointed me. I guess it diminished a large part of my watch fandom already, and I don't see myself buying a watch just on looks any more. Don't know who this rant will benefit, but just wanted to get it off my chest. Thanks for reading.

[@drewbaughman7129]

In my year long quest to purchase a new Rolex Explorer I at an AD, I have visited and developed a relationship with 6 ADs in 4 different states. I am holding out for the AD experience and I want to purchase this watch new, it is my grail watch, and I will pass it down to one of my kids or future grand kids, with my own nicks and scratches on it. I have learned in this process of hunting for my grail watch that even if you have the money and appreciate the quality, two of the criteria that define a luxury item, there is an important or maybe the most important criterion to keep in mind: exclusivity. Exclusivity plays out in low supply/high demand, being a preferred customer to even get a chance to purchase, networking like a politician or connected person to the extent that you can, etc. Like Bruce said, this situation will never change; otherwise the item--in this case my Rolex steel sports model of choice--would not be exclusive, and, therefore, not a luxury item. Where does this leave me, a regular dude who has the money and has been ready to pull the trigger for the past 12 months? I will keep hunting, keep being patient, keep visiting ADs, including random ones around the world and in airports when I travel, and when I get lucky and finally have the Rolex Explorer watch on my wrist, I will be content that the hunt has ended, and I now own a luxury watch. This may not be ideal, or suck as Bruce says, but it's the reality, now and forevermore.

[@LlyleHunter]

The practice is protected under international trade laws as part of Fair Trade on limited edition and high end hand made items made by artist and artisans. Manufacturers are even allowed to control the release with price controls on the list price not allowing discounting and retailers are allowed to ask above list price according to demand. Often many of theses items never deprecate in value proving that the manufacturer had no way of accurately gauging a fair value on the item and that the market did.

[@gordonl1601]

I don't mind this practice; clearly like all things it has flaws but it is the only way to (more or less) protect the high demand pieces from flippers. If you are reading this Johann, there are ways to remedy the situation, and if you are trully an enthusiast join watch clubs, communities, and collector circles and you will find someone to help you out. I have a friend who is a major customer at an AP boutique and he got me a blue 15500 in exchange for a blue Skydweller that I got him at a Rolex dealer where I have the same status. If you are new to the hobby you may not have any "influence" to trade but surely you may run into someone willing to help you. Don't give up.

[@greaterbayareahero1401]

This is part of the Branding game which all luxury brands play. Hermes handbags, Rolex, LV, etc. It applies to all business where they will favour their regular customers. It is part of doing business. If people just look at it this way and not take it personally, it will be OK for the mind. It's like thinking the US Government is a business and not really there to help the people of the country. In a way it is also helping the customers who have paid vast amount into the brand to keep their exclusivity and value on their products. Therefore, I don't play this game with Hermes since I don't like it enough to pay $50K for their handbags.

[@margaretmorris7429]

Interesting post re : A Lange Sohne. Slightly related but not quite the same. Last year I purchased a Tudor Black Bay from a AD in the uk. I will try and keep this brief. The watch was purchased for my son using funds from my bank account. Due to an unrelated matter regarding my son my house (which I share with my son) our house was searched by law enforcement and all of my sons possessions of value were seized including the Tudor which was 4 weeks old and had never been worn. To my horror and surprise when I investigated this with a view to getting the Tudor returned it transpires that on the warranty card and sales receipt my son is listed as the purchaser (he was with me at point of sale and was asked to sign what we were told was the warranty on a tablet in store). At no time were either of us made aware by the AD that my son would be listed as the purchaser which he was not. We have been in touch with the AD and are less than happy with their response. My sons lawyer is trying to deal with matters, but as you will probably appreciate due to what I regard as incorrect details being completed at time of purchase I being told I may never see the watch again if matters go against my son. My son also has owned Omega, Oris and Seiko peices none of which have purchaser details listed on the documentation. Obviously this is still an ongoing matter but I am extremely distressed by the whole affair. What do you think about "purchaser's details being completed on watch documentation without the purchaser either being informed or made aware of this at time of purchase? Should I now contact Tudor direct? Kind Regards Margaret.

[@HorologyinSanity]

Like many others, I refuse to play the games. Great video though. Always appreciate your opinions in these Q&A email response videos.

[@mdesmet9111]

Had a similar experience the first time I entered a Rolex AD. Didn't enter another Rolex AD for over a year, but when I decided to try another one, the experience was totally different. Have bought three steel Rolexes there since then, including a Batman. I would just try a different AD and see if they are any different.

[@robertschmidt9584]

The Odysseus is $28,800 and I very much like it. However, this isn’t a Rolex Air King. I think the sports watch craze has” gone overboard” (ALS is late in the game) and a great time to buy PP and ALS dress watches on the grey market.

[@JB-xt3ly]

Way it is in the luxury game. Guess that’s why it’s called “luxury”.

[@p.j.mendes]

If this comforts...frankly; I prefer the Yema Superman you are wearing. By far...

[@PeteMcConvill]

Here's the game - these watches are an easy win, a cheat, knowing they are great means nothing about your knowledge of watches, merely that you've seen a few youtube videos. There are many watches as good (or better) availble for the same mony (or less). But you've got to invest the time to search and learn. Look at Armin Strom, Jaquet Droz, Moritz Grossman etc.

[@johnsellers1272]

I love hearing about...anything but Rolex.

[@blargvlarg1390]

While I understand the issues of supply and demand, this is just silly. If you've got to be part of an exclusive club to buy such a Lange watch, the brand should have just directly and exclusively marketed to those people. This is like Lange hawking their wares just outside the VIP section and then turning people away because they're not VIPs.

[@user-dr7tb4xf4o]

Blarg Vlarg that's how you create the hype and the demand. You have to show it off to everyone, make them want it, then that's when you break it to them that they can't have it.

[@thetrentmeister]

Hi Bruce! Just wondering if you’re planning on giving the Seiko SBDC101 a review? Or is Seiko now in the rear view mirror?

[@vinchel118]

Regardless of the price...they all do the same thing. Tell the time. That being said its up to you how far you are willing to go in regards to price and dealing with dealers

[@p.9608]

I have (sadly only) 3 Lange watches, there was never a problem to get one. (I do collect only pocket watches ;-))

[@theguardian3431]

I understand the rationale behind this policy, but I believe it's countereffective in at least 2 ways: 1. It unwittingly facilities the practice of watches making their way into the grey market en masse. A person or group of people can pool capital and make successive multiple purchases with a dealer, thereby becoming a valued client. The customer can then turn around and sell the watches on the grey market at sky high prices due to the artificial scarcity created by the policy of only selling to valued clients; and, 2. It leaves prospective customers who are ready and willing to buy the watch with a bad taste in their mouth. Instead of organically becoming a valued client over time, the relationship may never begin in the first place. At the end of the day, I think it's an incredibly short-sighted strategy employed by brands for a quick and steady influx of slaes. Only persons who plan to sell on the grey market can quickly become valued clients and make frequent purchases, thus artificially driving sales up. Unfortunately, brands are now missing out on organically building a relationship with the end consumers. They fail to realize that they are missing out on the profits siphoned away by grey market dealers who charge a considerable premium for the watches. The money that goes to that premium come from the pocket of customers who may have decided to buy more watches from the authorized dealer over time.

[@BruceWilliams]

A very well reasoned and stated comment. Thank you!

[@richardman28]

It's the same with FP Journe. You can not get the entry level ones unless you spend thousands with them one purchasing expensive ones in your brand. You dont even want to answer emails either.

[@ikirikchi]

Very wise and delicate reply.

[@elarson312]

Great watch that you are wearing. Yema makes a great watch. That blue one you have is awesome. As far as the subject matter of the video, I will never buy into waiting lists on a watch. It just is not that important to me.

[@BruceWilliams]

I'm loving it!

[@christodoulospapadopoulos9544]

I get the frustration BUT i own 3 Lange watches and i would be also frustrated if i couldn't get the steel Odysseus and some random person just walks in and buys it and i have to wait in queue.

[@rw6836]

Stuff like this is why I got out of the watch craze. I still like watches, but not so much such that I end up wanting to spend money I could ill afford to spend. Watch bros at watch forum promote these "luxury" watches, talking up about how they are so well made, desirable, and worth the money. Some people worship at the feet of these brands and what they make. Screw that. I trained myself to like what I have and could afford, and that's it. I don't care anymore about Patek, Lange, fit and finish, etc. They and their wealthy clients can keep their exclusivity and watch brand club membership, not my game to play.

[@llngoc]

This is the reality for all luxury brands which have a few halo products which everyone wants. I don't see it as a game as the brand only wants to "reward" their true brand loyalist with their most desirable product. Try to get a 911 GT cars and you will find out that Porsche has special quota for owners of Carrera GT from the 2000 or you pay the $40-50k mark up from the dealer. Same for Birkins from Hermes. It is not just for watches. The brand wants a spend pattern so they can see that you do appreciate their products and not just their most desirable/Instagram hyped product and you are not going to walk out and flip the watch/purse/car for $10k's of profit. But then of course, money and greed is involved...

[@quovadis1951]

It's for the best - the Odysseus is a dog's breakfast

[@charlieboylol527]

All the top end watches are over priced ,I would love a Lange but the cost ,overseas £18,000,Nautilus £25,000 ,AP Royal Oak 41, you tell me they are 5 times better than a Omega Aqua Terra ,they are all beautiful watches but not 5 times more money . Glashutte Original 1970s blue dial fantastic no waiting lists ,JLC ,have a great weekend guys 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@natfingerboard]

When a Brand does this I completely lose interest, I chose another watch, maybe even second hand at a lower price, that's the time to allow yourself to look at other options, I personally don't consider it compromising at all, I am not that attached. I refuse to be a part of this bullshit. If you can't be happy with another similar watch, sad for you, I love way too many brands and models to be stuck jerking off some stupid AD.

[@jamesbaum9775]

Most marketers feel that keeping items exclusive creates more demand. In this example we see that isn't always the case. This type of marketing is what really turned me off to Rolex. Go into a Rolex boutique and compare that experience to an Omega, Breitling or GS boutique and the experience, for me at least, is horrible in comparison.

[@John4ka]

I would love to purchase a Rolex Sub. BUT I won’t be part of their weird game. Some people think this is part of the free market, but actually it’s what they did in the Soviet Union. Cars and other goods were only reserved for special people. You had to be on a wait list just to get a car, nothing fancy, only the base clunker. Rolex’s and Patek’s sales tactic reminds me of that. Best response, don’t play their game. Enjoy other watches/things until they realize the customer is the one who defines the rules.

[@tbd1613]

Why should someone who never bought a Lange get the right to buy an Odysseus? Dont be stupid. Ive spent a ton on Lange and got one. Lange needs to protect their brand and not just give it to a flipper. Get over it big boy.

[@samuelball8775]

This is why the brands should sell direct to consumers via online sales. The future for some poor service retail businesses is going out of business. Even some car brands are starting to cut out dealers and sell direct now. I’d consider another watch and wouldn’t play that game 👍

[@scotts9508]

Timeless Luxury gave Lange the boot and signed up with Vacheron instead. Wouldn’t elaborate with me but it was clear they were let down in some way.

[@drew4021]

I think this is their way of creating exclusivity and up market the brand. all that bunk about favoring their special customers and the other reasons you shared are just their marketing crap. whats ironic and unfortunate is now with the global virus crisis we're in many of these brands will fail for that very reason as people seek more value for their dollar or euro like this gentleman

[@scottlalonde2878]

Thank you Bruce, another great video. This wasn't as bad as your Rolex bundle email, at least he didn't say the AD had a smug attitude about excluding him. BTW agree with other comments: VC Overseas & GP Laureato blue dials way better looking imho. Thanks again.

[@mathewazzopard8100]

Well, yes the customer service affects the buyer or the potential buyer. Watches are a luxury, once a person owns more than one or two. To the watches, just like cars, a group that are elite cars, will see before random buyers they will take care the regular ones. Think of it this way, you've paid this year 50k at a boutique, you will demand priority. Life isn't fair but that's how it is.

[@robertpantlik9893]

Despite limited in production, gold Lange watches stay untouched in butiques, you can buy almost all of them with a considerable rabatt from the secondary market. Lange should learn that people may appreciate their nice dress watches but today nobody needs a gold watch on alligator strap for everyday use. Luxury market changes, people (we all) go for casual luxury. Maybe they should not produce so many Saxonia and Lange 1 variants. Audemars Piguet recognised it very early - they offer very few dress watches without spoiling the image of the brand. Keeping this watch for Lange costumers and regular buyers: Lange butique cannot be for anyone a grocery shop you buy regulary. If this watch pops up on the grey market for almost double price you will at least know that Lange costumers won't find it that nice for swimming and sailing 😀, that should be the only reason they offer it for selling. Buy sg. else or watches out of production!

[@davidoleary6631]

Watch boutiques and ADs sell hot watches to people that put them straight on the internet at a big profit and snub genuine buyers who then end up paying a premium. I'll stick to brands that make watches and sell them to whoever wants to buy them.

[@chinosoria5]

Bruce how you create a relationship with AD when you purchase your Hulk, because you said in other videos never bought from them before, I knew you said about 6 month wait since the first time... But how? They know you're have a KZbin channel? Or...?

[@BruceWilliams]

Sorry I may not have been clear earlier. I've bought from my AD multiple times. The hulk was a physically different location as one of the local boutiques closed. But it's the same sales associates and ownership. I believe the hulk was my fourth Rolex from them. I've known guys who got the hard to get models as their first Rolex though. It's just not common

[@pukenanginang]

There's a lot I mean a lot of other cool brands out there go do some research and you'll be surprised. Rolex, AP, Patek and some Lange timepieces are gonna be hard to get unless you spent thousands of $$$ sad but that's how it works nowadays. I've been waiting for rolex deepsea james cameron for more than a year now but since JLC announced the updated version of master calendar Im sold. Pick up the timepiece 2 days ago and Im loving it.

[@zekevfab]

Agree for Lange, PP, AP, etc... But Rolex is an industrially produced watch, like Omega. And when you go to an Omega store, you can get out with a watch.

[@matthewhill3996]

This is why I don’t even consider Rolex when making a decision. Always starts with Tudor/omega cause I can actually buy them

[@NegitiveFeedback]

Money isn't everything. Why are people surprised ADs value customer relationships?

[@sigve6165]

I do not agree, of course, they must give the watch to people who have bought watches there before, A. Lange und shone are special, but they do not do charity, they have to make money.

[@wolper2155]

Hi Bruce. In my opinion. The Vacheron with blue dial Beats the Lange. Greetings from germany

[@alecmoriarty]

Exclusivity is inherently a part of luxury.

[@BruceWilliams]

Truth

[@drewbaughman7129]

Tom The Fish it’s taken me a long time to figure that out. I now realize this after 12 months of trying to purchase a Rolex Explorer 1 at multiple ADs.

[@TKsheng]

Just like when you compare an amex black card with a normal credit card, more you pay, the better the perks, thus come exclusivity. Luxury is called luxury in fact because it isn’t something for a normal man in the first place, but only to a “select few” who can afford it.

[@CleanClaspCollector]

Saved up for a Rolex for a while. Had the money. No watch available to buy and I refuse to give greys any business. Bought a Grand Seiko Snowflake and saved a ton. Better watch, better movement, better finishing, better quality, better tech, better price. Buy a Rolex to throw away money on something to impress your friends.

[@Nils0scar]

Not really surprised, but good to know. Luckily I'm interested in a steel Saxonia, and that watch does not exist. (or did they make one one off?)

[@Tonysoprano497]

The high end watch business caters for the wealthy , its elitist., buying history is everything. Depends whether owning a certain watch is so important that you’re prepared to swim in murky waters and jump through hoops . . Personally I would never compromise myself for any watch . Regardless of how much money I had I wouldn’t enter into this world , if I can’t get a watch in a reasonable time frame I move onto something else .Ive even heard stories of people paying Rolex ADs premiums for the hard to get pieces , it’s so underhanded I would no doubt report this type of behaviour. I just think it’s time people addressed these unrepeatable business practice and stop letting themselves be victims ...

[@underachievingwatchcollect1878]

Lang owners requested a sports model so I can see how they would get first pick!! I’ve bought several Rolex from my AD but I can’t even get on the waiting list for a Daytona. Luxury =limited and only the connected high rollers need apply!!!

[@thefreshestprince89]

Well...at least they are transparent re how much you have to spend? And agreed - I thought Lange would be different.

[@markplayford5836]

Yep you should be able to buy what you want if you have the cash. However the world does not work like that which is probably a good thing. I mean let’s face it it’s a crazy amount of money to spend on something that does a worse job than your phone does accurately. Pocket the money and smirk whenever you hear the name Lange. OR don’t settle for anything else, the next best thing or pay over the odds for one, put out feelers scour enough forums even ask some reputable dealers until you get one. Good luck 👍

[@SinnerAndSaint]

I can totally relate. Such behaviour is never good for a brand and I do despise that. I was always a big Lange fan but as I finally decided to get my ONE dresswatch I passed Lange as well. I absolutely disagree when it comes to "holding back watches for their best customers". In theory that makes perfect sense. But in reality it's a different story. If your are REALLY a trusted customer that spent thousands or millions of dollars you have your contacts. They will inform you about new releases or you will ask them asap. They will make it happen that you get the watch you want. But having such a "special" watch in stock and not selling to a regular customer is just bad manners! This means that there IS stock available which is officially reserved for their most valuable clients. But this is just BS! Their most valuable clients DO have this watch for a long time because they ARE a valuable client. So for me this is just a bad game to force people buy stuff they don't want. That's why I'm now getting a special and custom made dress piece from a small German manufacturer and the pre-sales service was superb! After his story I'm so glad that I chose this way. Btw. if you're reading this Bruce - my Hentschel is in the making! 😍 It will take 4-6 months until I can pick it up. So stoked right now!! All the best from Germany, Daniel

[@BruceWilliams]

Congrats man I am really excited for you! I did reach out with the email you provided. I hope to hear back even if nothing happens. They look outstanding 👌

[@analogman1496]

Seiko SNR029 or the SNR033. Great time pieces at a much lower cost that the high end stuff.

[@impexRQ]

I think you can’t say ALS is going the same way as Rolex ... there is hugeee differences. Rolex is a mass produced watch you can find everywhere...ALS is very limited, it’s hand crafted so of course you won’t find that many....

[@offduty7393]

Another caveat to all of this is the geographic area you are located in. If you're trying to buy a hot piece in London, Paris, or New York City; Good Luck! i recently went to every Rolex dealer in the Atlanta area looking for a Dayton, any Daytona. I originally was set on the stainless with white face. After hours of bizarre sales tactics and no Daytona in sight, I gave up. A month later I was 150 miles from Atlanta and saw a billboard for a Rolex dealer. As soon as I walked in I spotted two Daytona's in the display case. I ask if I could buy both of them and the answer was :of course"! They also had a new Submariner in the case, which is what I bought. Once I finally put the Daytona on my wrist, I hated the way I looked. I also bought two new Omega's when I got home and still spent less than the cost of one Daytona. Shop around and it may pay off!

[@triniboy05]

Eh, such is life. I’ll either pay extra grey or I won’t get it. I’m not going to pay for something I don’t want to get something I do want, though. .

[@andrewgiblin3468]

I don't even go to AD's anymore they're all a complete waste of time, generally they're rude (well Rolex anyway) and as useful as a chocolate tea pot!!

[@jigd0471]

He should get the Parmigiani Fleurier Tondagraph GT... thats really a beauty

[@cliffordgriffith818]

With it he would live, and without it he would still live!!

[@TriforceRich]

They get away with it because we allow it, simple as that. Ferrari, Hermès, Rolex and Patek through its ADs, etc.. all play the same game. Market a product hard enough to make it unbelievably desirable and eventually people are begging you to take their cash.

[@robertlulek1634]

I'm seeing this 28 to $30,000 watch on Chrono 24 for $72,000 insane

[@dud3n355]

So basically this model is being used as a publicity stunt since no one outside of the 'special collectors' can purchase it.... I find this very unfortunate and this is not a correct mentality for a company like this. Then just admit that ALS wants to be an elite company. (If necessary, put a condition in the purchase contract that if owners wish to sell their watch, they must first offer it to ALS. Ferrari has been doing this lately too) They did the same with their titanium model. Too bad....