WHAT WAS THE BEST NHL DRAFT...2015 OR 2003?

On the eve of a talent stacked 2023 NHL Draft, Corwin, Luca and DZ examine two drafts from the past that have often been heralded as the greatest of all-time...2003 and 2015. But which is better?

[@tyler.harford6479]

The fact that Luca was giving more praise to Brian Elliot than Marc-Andre Fleury is wild

[@Spartan086]

considering MAF is 3rd in all time goalie wins and will probably move up to 2nd and then retire

[@doovid1280]

Gotta do a 2004 vs 2005 draft classes. Ovi vs Sid as #1's. Could be interesting to see the drafts matched up against each other.

[@nickmartz]

Malkin at 2

[@nanoo4141]

Malkin vs Ryan at 2 gives 04 a pretty good head start

[@andyholland2130]

@@nanoo4141 Followed by Rinne, Wheeler, and Krejci as legit top of the lineup players and maybe Mike Green before he tore his groin a bunch of times. 05 has Crosby, Kopitar, Price, Quick, Rask, Bishop, Letang, and maybe Yandle as top talent. In 10 years, when all players will be retired and eligible for the Hall, 04 will probably only have Ovechkin, Malkin and Rinne and 05 will have Crosby, Kopitar, Quick, Price and Letang with Rask being a borderline case. I give the edge to 05.

[@wildbill7136]

05 is so much better

[@tristansurmik1233]

Fleury: 985 games played 544 wins (3rd behind Roy and Brodeur) 2.58 GAA & a .913 SV%. 76 SO…..but yeah call that mediocre

[@CanadianBongRipper]

Mediocre is really harsh. But he is overrated he only has 1 vezina which Vasilevkiy should've won. He was terrible in most of the playoffs but no one remembers that because they remember 2009.

[@Moniyaw55]

⁠he was rocky after he got old and lost some of his athleticism that really drove his game but young fleury was one of if not the best in the league.

[@zachw4829]

Roberto Luongo is mediocre

[@kigasixtyfive]

he's also been to 5 stanley cups and has a vezina

[@HogSZN]

@@zachw4829 u are lost

[@jejsemin33]

I think there is a lot of recency bias with this. IMO the first round for the 2003 draft has accomplished a lot more than the first round has for 2015.

[@Ansee7]

yea no shit, the 2003 draft class has 12 years on the 2015 draft class

[@patrickpalmer3049]

@@Ansee7 But even if we were to look at the first 8 years of the 2003 draft class vs the last 8 years for the 2015 draft class. Just in the first round along, there are 5 cup winners - all playing a key role in their teams winning the cup. A huge portion of those players also played for their respective countries at the worlds and olympics - winning many silvers and golds (I understand current players can't play in the olympics but still). There wasn't much talk about the body of work for that 2003 draft class in the first 10 years of their career.

[@Ansee7]

@@patrickpalmer3049 thats a fair point

[@AC-ri2ph]

easy too when you're the only top talent. nowadays everyone and their mom is a superstar

[@Sir_Sydney_live]

Lmao did anyone else see it says Ilya Samsonov in starting line up when it shows Marc-Andre-Fleury for luca?

[@davidwaxter66]

The amount of disrespect for the flower is unreal. You compared him to Bobrovsky who for the longest time was a bigger disappointment than fleury. I know they look at all the stats but how can you say fleury is mediocre when he is going to be 1 of 4 goalies so far to hit 1000 games and probably be top 2 in wins (Can argue it’s not real number 2 because all of the ties the other goalies got). But still that is pretty impressive and still has 3 cups even though 2 of which Murray took over in the playoffs but flower definitely got the pens there in the first place. And like they pointed out the older guys you are able to see the end of their careers and while fleury’s hasn’t been graceful, you can say it’s been more successful being able to hoist 3 cups unlike some other greats in lundqvist and price

[@rorys3980]

8 years out from the 2003 draft (we’re 8 years out from the 2015 draft now), Bergeron had never even been a Selke finalist and players like Mike Richards and even Dion Phaneuf could be (and were) argued over him. Pavelski was barely even on the radar at that time as well. Have to see how the 2015 players age to properly compare, a lot of these guys could just fall off unexpectedly, same as so many from 2003. There are random players like Toby Enstrom that no one (outside of Jesse) has thought about in the last 10 years that was coming off of back-to-back 50-point seasons (top-5 scoring D-man those two years) and an all-star appearance in 2011. There are going to be players like that from 2015 too. It's not like they ignored this component (they mentioned it a bunch) but still just doesn't feel like they're fully taking it into account when drawing their conclusions. I know they conceded Bergeron belonging in the top group, but taking someone like Kaprizov over Pavelski is crazy with the overall body of work. ~450 goal, 1,000 point guy with more playoff goals than Crosby and Ovechkin vs. a player that has played 3 seasons (one of which was a 56-game COVID shortened year). The peaks and valleys of Fleury's career should be a reminder of how much can change with how players are perceived over time. Parise in the starting lineup thing is a great example of that imbalance. If you were to do this 8 years out, that was roughly when people were (stupidly) having Parise vs. Crosby arguments around the time of the Olympics. Parise was viewed as a top player in the league, top 5 in Hart voting and top 5 scoring season behind Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby, Datsyuk in 2008/09. That type of season was arguably better than what Kaprizov had in his sophomore season (5th in scoring, 7th in Hart voting). Ultimately I certainly think 2015 will end up better (primarily due to McDavid being insane), but it involves way too much projection to say that definitively now. McDavid is the only one from 2015 that’s decorated enough that he’s already had an all time great career that can compete against legendary players if he retired right now, and he's lightyears ahead of everyone else from 2015. Think that also raises the point how much McDavid's specific accomplishments should be weighed when talking about a class as a whole, 200-300 players are drafted per year and 100+ of them get at least some NHL experience. McDavid has more Art Ross trophies than Crosby and Malkin (the only 2 other active players that have won multiple Art Ross trophies) combined. And not only that, but his 5 Art Ross trophies are as many as the number that other active winners have combined (Benn, Draisaitl, Kane, Kucherov, Ovechkin). If you really wanted to, you could devise arguments based around hardware that McDavid is better than the cumulative careers of like 20+ Hall of Famers, let alone 20+ players from the 2003 draft. But I don't think it really works that way. That 9 top-5 scoring seasons stat, 7 of those belong to McDavid (and those 7 were all him finishing top 2 in the league in scoring). For comparison, among the top 10 active scorers, Crosby has 9, Ovechkin has 6, Kane has 5, Malkin has 4, Kopitar has 0, Staal has 0, Stamkos has 4, Bergeron has 0, Backstrom has 2, Giroux has 3. So more than everyone except Crosby, and if you want to take it down to top 2 finishes, Crosby has 4.

[@thedon_8628]

Pavelski over Kaprizov?! 😂😂😂 You're fuckin' high! Give me some of what you're smokin'.

[@rorys3980]

@@thedon_8628You’re high if you think it’s even possible to argue for someone with 200 games played over a player with 1,250 games, 1K points, and the most playoff goals of any active player. Kaprizov hasn’t even been past the first round, he barely has a track record even compared to even other 2015 picks.

[@thedon_8628]

Yeah, well I can argue the same thing and say you're high if you are comparing a player who has over a 1K points in 1250 games over a player who has only just over 200... it goes both ways. A player that has been in the league what?... 15 or so more years than Kaprizov? I realize that you can't compare 2 players that aren't even close to how many games each of them have played, which brings me to my next argument on what you can compare. Let's compare Pavelski's first 3 seasons with Kaprizov's. Oddly enough they played just about the same amount of games in their first 3 seasons despite Kaprizov's shortened first season because of covid (Pavelski played 46 games his first season) so it makes a more accurate stat and puts it more in perspective. Pavelski had 127 points in 208 games and Kaprizov has 234 points in 203 games. 107 more points in 5 less games played. It looks to me that Kaprizov's winning the race in who has the better start to a career... and he's only going to get better. Let's see here, Kaprizov in his second season had a 108 point season. Pavelski only broke 80 once in his 17 year career. I don't know... when all said and done, I'd say Kaprizov will have a better career than Pavelski. Like I said, give me some of what you're smokin'.

[@rorys3980]

@@thedon_8628 Cool, now compare Dion Phaneuf's first 3 seasons to him if your argument is what a player does in their first 3 seasons being all that matters. Your argument is nuts. You said it yourself here "I realize that you can't compare 2 players that aren't even close to how many games each of them have played" What race are you even talking about when Pavelski's MO is longevity? Hasek's breakout happened when he was 29, do his first 3 seasons in the league nullify that? It's 3 seasons compared to 17, if Kaprizov drops off over the next few years, or anything else happens that derails his career, your comment will be looked back on as being more laughable than comparing Phaneuf or Mike Richards' career to Pavelski's. Doesn't mean he will drop off, but you can't argue something that hasn't happened, it makes no sense. This isn't a McDavid level talent where he's transcended the sport in a short period of time and you can start to bring him in to these types of discussions. Guy has played about a third as much as McDavid has, and ~40% of the games that guys like Marner/Rantanen have.

[@spencerstrowbridge5581]

I aint reading allat

[@TheSamuelo666]

Not exactly what was asked, but a tier list/ranking of all (or like the 20 last) drafts in that format would be really interesting!

[@Vilbits]

The Brian Elliot Disrespect is brutal. Dude was Elite for a couple years, He had .940 Save percentage and 1.56 GAA in 2011-2012. He should have won the Vezina that year. Yall Missed his Jennings trophy in 2011-2012

[@nanoo4141]

Good goalie. Never a true #1 though. Was always splitting the load with another tendy, and if he wasn't his stats suffered.

[@kevinmcgowan9200]

He played in less than 40 games out of 82 that year. No way that deserves a Vezina

[@TheKeeperofKeyss]

I would also like to see a comparison between the 1984 draft class and the 1990 draft class. Should be able to have some fun with those.

[@declanf.5532]

Boston passing on Barzal twice is a certified classic, but i love them for it

[@Toews1247]

The disrespect to fleury ……..And I am not a pens fan. And Luca when Kris Letang Sidney Crosby and malkin on ur team u don’t make many allstargames

[@CanadianBongRipper]

He's one of the only goalies that went 1st overall and at no point in his career he was the best goalie in the world. Great career but really overrated

[@georgejones5385]

@@CanadianBongRipperhomie stop having opinions

[@Toews1247]

@@CanadianBongRipper he carried the pens to the cup in 09 and in 16 was brilliant when Murray was out and carried Vegas to the finals in 18

[@obscurereference6298]

The All Star comment on Flower is totally unfair from Luca. They give ASG's by team spread out and Malkin, Letang and Crosby hurt Flower's ASG nods. Not his fault his team was deep.

[@seancolorado]

LOL Marner over Rantanen. Good one

[@Boocus_]

Nahh look at the points

[@user-gh4zg1yb2b]

yesss podcasts are back❤❤

[@TheKeeperofKeyss]

The all star thing should have been counted as positvie more so for the 2003 class since most of their careers the all star game didn't have the one representative from each team requirement.

[@holofech9744]

You could do a draft competition of 2000 vs 1999, battle of the millennium, find out which one was less bad

[@tamirshimshoni8185]

I can't believe you guys didn't even mention Bruins legend Zach Senyshyn.

[@TheMajorr86]

You have to figure in longevity to these conversations. The 2015 group is off to a hot "start", but how do they finish. So many of the great teams that were brought up (Hawks, Kings, Bruins) were hitting their stride at year 7 which is where the 2015 draft is now. 2015 could fizzle out as fast as it's come on which would put 2003 miles ahead just based off lasting impact on the league.

[@zZach___]

2003: Getzlaf and Perry 2015: Jacob Larsson I rest my case lmao

[@mitchelllouden2990]

Do a rundown of each teams off-season picks because I’d love to see your guises perspective

[@Kaden97]

22:34 Ilya Samsonov name is on the flower. Picture. For Luca lineup. What about 2016 vs 15

[@serapeach6252]

idk how you should pair them up but; 1997, 1999, 2005, 2009, 2016 would all be cool to see featured

[@curtis9606]

I like the premise but when you get into it, you can tell the comparison is so skewed because the 2015 class is at their collective peaks. Of course you're going to THINK they wipe the floor with the 03 class in 2023

[@stehar27]

1984 vs 2015. Lemieux and Roy vs Mcdavid and Marner. Old School vs New School. Would love to see it.

[@bananas1471]

This is fun do more idc which ones

[@timmacdonald5356]

What about Lee Stempniak, 5th rounder in 2003? Haha jk I love looking back at drafts. Great content BarDown!

[@vanillaflounder376]

22:37 that sure does look like Samsonov to me

[@jaygee1477]

I always thought 2005 was supposed to 1 of the best? Was there a typo when they decided which years to compare?

[@matthewcolitti8456]

Mikko easily second best from 2015

[@nathanshearer2798]

I'd like to see you debate skills, like how skilled fundamentally the draft class was

[@CashMW01]

Crosby-draft against Ovi-draft could be fun to compare!

[@Cawtion]

@ 22:29 Samsonov looks pretty french Canadian

[@johnj8069]

1988. Selanne, Modano, Linden, Roenick, Brindamour, Recchi, Amonte, Blake..

[@Maiso23m]

Brian Elliot was a top 10 goalie for about 5 years

[@grandtheftautoandstuff3744]

Brian Elliot, jaroslav halak, Brian Elliot(second to last pick), Corey Crawford

[@tiger5869]

If you could add Ovi and Crosby to 2003, then it'd be a discussion. I felt bad for Luca this whole video, I've never seen him this defeated.

[@danielkraushuber7860]

2005 draft and 2016 draft

[@Yablko]

this is extremne nitpicking, but are you writing the names in the tables out by hand? eric cernak, krill kaprizov... that's not how those names are spelled

[@theyodabrothers42]

2014 draft vs 2016 draft would be cool

[@isthatrubble]

I think you should do this again with two drafts with really bad reputations, to see which is the ultimate bad draft

[@PhoenixRiseinFlame]

2012 might be a prime candidate for that idea

[@RegulationListener]

Something international could be interesting. Along the lines of USA vs Russia, Sweden vs Finland

[@MrHbkfan17]

I have no recollection of either bsides maybe the first three picks for each but... 2012 v. 2014

[@dustinrhodes4793]

I like that "late round depth" is rounds 2-9 lol. That's almost the whole draft

[@alexfisher7608]

The disrespect to 2003 class. Saying players that had 1000 games and solid careers are way way worse than some players that have played 400 games and in their prime. Recency Bias for sure, I still think 2015 is probably better but the debates were nothing

[@kaelpearson9707]

2019 vs 05 would be sick

[@williamperrier6675]

Is the podcast still a thing? You don't post on spotify no more

[@itsttime2512]

I have to say, as someone who had the pleasure of watching Brian Elliot play college hockey -- (he was absolutely incredible for Wisconsin) -- hearing him get dragged like this really bummed me out

[@Thefu1ure2010]

2007 vs 2017

[@EnderSword]

I'm surprised of all years 2003 got the nod. 2005 is so much better... Sidney Crosby obviously, but Anze Kopitar, Tuukka Rask, Carey Price, Mark Staal, Jack Johnson, Bobby Ryan, Kris Letang, Jonathan Quick, TJ Oshie, Andrew Cogliano, Paul Statsny I think that's a much better year

[@colepole30]

22:42 Ilya samsonov of the Pittsburg penguins

[@rickymercerjr]

2015 no larkin?

[@markaltman6678]

2004 v. 2016 only go a year up but you got two great drafts

[@onewingedguy]

MAF is an absolute legend. His 3 rings are a lot more Lundqvist, Price, Luongo, etc. all goalies who people consider better somehow. Teams have mistreated him for a couple seasons, tarnishing his current rep. He's a winner, and played huge in big games. The Game 7 save against Detroit? Might have the best career of any active goaltenders.

[@sunbehindclouds]

maybe do the worst trades or the worst drafts years 2012 comes to mind maybe vs 1999

[@irubanomlas]

2013 vs 2005 let’s see it. Cool series

[@Bline-ip6et]

The 2003 draft was special because of how many legends it produced. Look at how many olympic champions that 2003 draft churned out, not to mention runner up americans. These guys like boeser, mangiapane, and konecny cannot hold a candle to guys like parise, kesler, and richards. You guys forget about how legendary these players were. Parise was a great NJ captain and almost willed team USA to an olympic gold. Kesler single handedly pushed the canucks to the cup final in 2011 and richards was a solidified winner everywhere he went. Sure the 2015 class can put up stats but the 03 players were big game players and so many were WINNERS

[@dylanbushmire2623]

How can you compare bobrovsky to the flower he stood on his head for the penguins night in and night out absolutely insane in playoffs I think he had a 2.50 goals against and a 2.60 in the regular season bobrovsky barely keeps it under 3 goals

[@hippodisco1687]

4:14 LMAOOOOO

[@Jogann22]

Great video, it's a fun debate and one I myself have thought about before. It'll be interesting to revisit this in the future, it's definitely tough to grade these right now. Luca was in a tough spot defending 2003, they really gets hurt by hindsight and 2015 is still almost viewed through the lens of potential (noted by the guys scoffing at Luca mentioning Brian Elliott but guys like Ilya Samsonov/Jonas Siegenthaler being fine picks for 2015). Even if you go back and look at their stats it's hard to shake the perspective of all the 2003 guys being "old" and more-so playing depth roles on teams if they're not already retired. Especially when you compare it to the 2015 guys who are all currently in their primes and among the best players in the league, I feel like this is really obvious when the guys are talking about a guy like Kaprizov compared to the careers of Pavelski, Perry, Getzlaf, Weber, etc. Kap is better now for sure but it takes a lot of recency bias to definitively put him ahead of those guys mentioned. Ultimately 15-20 years down the line I imagine we do look at the 2015 draft as the better one. Even just having a player of McDavid's calibre is such a big advantage, but it's tough for me to fully buy in right now. Who knows how the 2015 guys' careers end up playing out.

[@Zach-lc6bs]

it'd be cool to try to do 2 really bad drafts

[@evann-t2915]

Just an FYI: Kaprizov scored the overtime goal to win the gold at the 2018 Olympics

[@munaclassic4020]

For first round depth you should drop the top ten out of it

[@keirpatrick3045]

2015 all day there wasn't a McDavid level player in the 2003 draft

[@NosduhHockey]

2013 vs 1999

[@MikaylaDinglas]

Love to see some Corey Perry appreciation

[@LeviBulger-dx1si]

Why didn’t you compare it to the ovi draft that makes more sense to me personally

[@jacobfleenor1714]

the 2003 team might win a game today honestly. Especially if you can sub parise for getz. Kaprizov V Perry and Marner V Getzlaf is tough.

[@galacta1549]

Marc Andre fleury 3rd most wins in nhl history 3 cups I know Matt Murray won those cups for them but actually if you remember fleury was the starter for more of the games in the 2017 cup run fleury is incredible stop underrating him guys sorry I mean Luca

[@deltagolavista1]

Do the two worst drafts next

[@owenshepherd8220]

I think that 2016 vs 2023 would be a good idea

[@jackrundkvist1899]

Y'all should have done 2005vs2015

[@Kylelawrie89]

I think its too easy to look at the best draft. I think comparing the 2 worst drafts since the 2000s would be a much harder debate.

[@torrengustavsen7429]

04 vs 05. Classic Crosby - Ovi matchup.

[@relser187]

Dang something about 2003 and having good drafts huh? NBA’s 2003 draft is also an all time great draft! I wonder how MLB, NFL, and MLS did?

[@yousuckdicks1]

at a quick glance the 2003 nfl draft was pretty meh. Troy Polamalu is the stand out.

[@kevvanfn1137]

crosbys draft class vs ovechkins draft class. in next episode

[@thomasknightt]

So much disrespect for Fleury they even got his name wrong in the graphic at 22:38 😂

[@dylanbaker9936]

Love the dahlin sabres jersey go sabres!

[@chrispswann6825]

The 1979 draft: Mike Gartner, Ray Bourque, Michel Goulet, Kevin Lowe, Guy Carbonneau, Mark Messier, Glenn Anderson... Also Wayne Gretzky would have been drafted in 1979 had he not signed in the WHA

[@noahvirjee1113]

1999 vs 2005 could be fun

[@dexschneider3402]

22:37 ilya samsnov lmao

[@xidis8022]

Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a room. A rubber room! A rubber room with rats,and rats make me crazy.

[@Notcapcut]

2013 and 2018

[@Tylerthemyler]

There is a lot of recency bias in this video. How are we comparing 1000+ games played and lots of points players from a long time ago with a bunch of guys who don’t even have half their careers played yet. Back in the day a lot of those guys during the low scoring era of the nhl were top of the league just like the 2015 class is right now. Players like staal, Getzlaf, Perry, parise, suter, carter, richards, etc.. were cream of the crop. I still think the 2015 class is insane and probably will end up being the best there is at the end of the day, but the 2003 draft would only be slightly worse in terms of who were the best players in the league for the decades after that draft

[@aeyuio2315]

2015 has the best point scorer by far, but 2003 has by far the better depth. The Troy Terries of the world have nothing on Pavelski or Byfuglien.

[@cavndsh4308]

2011 draft would've been a much better competition for 2015. One of the most underrated draft classes

[@ILoveMisty1985]

Do 1984 vs. 2015 next! 1984 has more Baseball Hall of Famers at least.

[@peanutbuttercstarz6431]

do ovechkin vs crosby draft

[@matthewtran5163]

1984 2015 draft

[@jesusjuiced]

Count the rings, count the rings after eight years to adjust for longevity. Bias against winning is v strong leafs energy.

[@etrinko]

No Conn Smythes in either draft either. Eichel almost got it this year which would have added another for Corwin

[@DanielDaniel-fb6oi]

Quiz please

[@danyelkennedy9436]

2011 and 2013

[@marnsy.nhl.5940]

do 2016 and 2005

[@sam1600]

1986 vs. 1999. 1999 had Patrik Stefan as their #1 pick, and the only three 'stars' in that draft were Zetterberg, and the Sedins. Next in points you have Vrbata, Havlat, and Erat, who are kind of forgettable and were never even hall of very good worthy. You have Calder winner Barret Jackman, and then you have Vezina winner Ryan Miller in net. I'd say the top 10 players in this draft are Sedin, Sedin, Zetterberg, Miller, Craig Anderson, Havlat, Vrbata, Erat, Parros?.... and Tim Connolly. On the other hand, 1986 is led by Damphousse, Carson, and Leetch. Past that... uh... Teppo Numminen... Jyrki Lumme... and King Clancy winner Adam Graves. In net you have Tugnutt, and whoever Jin Hrivnak is... Both these drafts are horrible, and would honestly make for pretty comedic debates.

[@ymmij5217]

03 hands down

[@cam2159]

2016 and 2009

[@isaakwillett5256]

Samsonov, kind of good? Bro would have won the Vezina in any other year.

[@jshssjsj9341]

I would say either 2004 or 2005 v.s 2014. Just my opinion thou

[@kpopct25]

Is there gonna be a draft livestream today?🥹🫶