TTA Podcast 101 - Did Jesus Exist (with Dr. Richard Carrier)

Available via BlogTalkRadio: www.thethinking...
iTunes: itunes.apple.c...
Stitcher (search The Thinking Atheist)
Richard Carrier received a PhD in ancient history from Columbia University in 2008. He is author of the books "Sense and Goodness without God," "Proving History" and "Not the Impossible Faith," as well as numerous print and online articles.
In this episode, Carrier lends his expertise as we tackle the question, did the Jesus of the bible exist?
LINKS:
Richard Carrier home page:
richardcarrier....
Article "Did Jesus Exist" by Frank R. Zindler
atheists.org/co...
Bart Ehrman interview: "Did Jesus Exist?"
• Video
Carrier / Ehrman debate thread:
freethoughtblog...

[@johnfargher99]

Jesus or Joshua in Hebrew was the most common Jewish male name. Of course Jesus existed. There were thousands of them.

[@isaacpowell1408]

Gooners Rule CLEVER 😎

[@dexterdexter8493]

Made me lol😂😂

[@lisacook8235]

Great point. I'm convinced.

[@claytonbelcourt1472]

And all of them look like Osama bin Laden..

[@scottsmith2235]

Yes, some variant names would be Yeoshua. Josephus wrote about several different “Jesus’” and describes them as preachers.

[@AtamMardes]

"Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool." Mark Twain

[@corradobaldiserra5]

Not Twain, Voltaire

[@hilakummins3104]

Brilliant. It sounds like Mark Twain or Will Rogers even if it was Voltaire 🙂

[@TheGuitarReb]

Samuel Clemens was a Confederate deserter and coward who changed his name to avoid capture. As a child, I read all his books and thought he was the greatest Author that ever lived. As an adult I found out how the Yankees burned our farms and tried to rape GG Grandmother.

[@AtamMardes]

@@TheGuitarReb How about Voltaire? "Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool." Voltaire

[@rohitjha8978]

Siddharth Gautam aka The Buddha definitely existed. He openly and explicitly asked everyone including his own disciples to be sceptical of everything and everyone. He also said that every man's path to self-awakening is his own. No scripture or preacher can help. He also said that he was neither the first nor the last Buddha.

[@johnycannuk]

His name would not be "Jesus Christ" - it would be Yeshua ben Joseph. And no, the Jesus of the Bible did not exist.

[@SPDATA1]

Thank you! ❤🎉

[@RightOnBro72]

Well-said. except that Joseph wasn't his father. And we have to wonder if Joseph wasn't at the crucifixion, who really was the father of Andrew, Joses, Simon, Jude, and all of Jesus' sisters? Did Mary have lots of "immaculate conceptions", or did she re-marry some guy name Clopas? If so, he'd be "Yeshua/Yehoshua ben Clopas" -- a religiously-confused guy with many dads, not knowing which of them his mom will be married to when she gets to heaven.

[@Sonosoz]

I so like the clarity of Carrier's explanations. Wonderful talk...

[@xerox1959]

Refreshing and excellent! Thanks to Richard Carrier and the Thinking Atheist

[@Drquestron]

I understand completely- I was a believer for over 30 years. It took me that long to finally be honest enough with myself to admit that all the things brainwashed into me as a youth were completely wrong. Your problem is that you are starting with an absolute certainty that what you believe is true. You don't know that and you never did. Until you can look at your beliefs critically and with the humility to admit that they don't make sense, you'll be trapped, like I was.

[@lawratify]

I went through the same experience until I found out Christianity is not just fraud but evil.

[@fitzroyclunis4532]

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[@salahuddinabdul-aziz1576]

Dr.Carrier is AWESOME!

[@johnnehrich9601]

As always.

[@TravisJarratt]

One of my favorite podcasts Seth! Great information and a great guest! I will be re-listening to this multiple times just to get all the information and book titles!

[@TruthQuest4700]

The nuns at the Catholic school used to say to their Bible questioning students, "you all don't need to read the Bible, we'll tell you what it says."

[@donaldcook2484]

Dr. Carrier is one incredible and intelligent source of history and knowledge!! Great stuff

[@sleepyeyeguy]

The gospels were written in the '70's!!? FAR OUT MAN!!

[@rain3743]

@@AwesomeWrench And high on cocaine.

[@clintronnow264]

@53:30 The internet makes you think critically. Once you start thinking critically about one thing it's hard to not do it with everything. Just open up your email account and start reading. Do you really believe you have a rich Nigerian relative that want to share millions of dollars with you? Do you really believe beautiful women in your area are just waiting to meet you? Do you really believe Jesus Christ has returned and needs you to send twenty bucks? Do you really believe you can get a free laptop by just doing a survey? Young people don't like being taken advantage of, it makes them feel ashamed of themselves and look stupid/foolish to others. These are two things Christianity holds up as virtuous.

[@amandine512]

I very much enjoyed this and would love it if you had more guests like Richard Carrier. There is so much that people don't know about the bible and the facts of all the discrepancies and contradictions etc. as well as the the fact that the authors often are unknown. I'd love to learn more while listening to your show. :-)

[@YamPoop]

I believe when Christianity finally becomes known as mythology, it will become more interesting to read with all its stories and parables, much like Greek mythology.

[@oscargordon]

You know I have to agree with you on that. It was when I got older and actually read the Bible that I realized how wrong most of what I was taught was. There simply wasn't a single part of either the Old Testament that had any historical truth, and Yahweh, rather than being this loving god, was in actuality one of the nastiest characters in all literature. In addition, this "Good Book" which was suppose to be our source of morality was anything but. The NT offered nothing useful either.

[@mitchellrose3620]

I'm concerned about the vacuum of the human moral mind that is being filled with modern stories with gratuitous violence and the focus on self interest.

[@PowerOfTheMirror]

I think the take-away from this is that there is about as much historical evidence for jesus as there is for hercules.

[@jasoncarpp7742]

When I was growing up, my aunt Sandra would *vehemently* insist that Jesus Christ did indeed exist, that the Bible is real, and that we should follow its teachings to the letter, or else. She would not allow debate whether Jesus existed or not. She would refuse to allow someone to ask "how do you know?" "can you prove this?". And she would show you a Bible and suggest you read it.

[@SpinoRexy733]

Kind of shows how fragile her beliefs are when you aren't even allowed to question them whatsoever.

[@FD87]

The bible sounds like it'd make a good RPG with multiple endings...

[@benko916]

Mikeferdy That is an excellent analysis!!! I love RPGS!!! I was thinking they should make a fighting game like Mortal Combat where your gods, like Zeus would have a lightning Bolt, Thor a Hammer, Yahweh can cause Guilt (a damage over time spell aka DOT) They can all summon their prophets, Huitzilopotchli can have acid rain, There are so many gods I could go through them all and name special abilities but I want to hear other peoples ideas for this game Mortal Gods.....

[@d8ni3l]

+Acey Hadrian You can call it Mortal Godbash

[@benko916]

Daniel Zhang I like It!! If they made a game like this would guys play it? I would!!

[@rimmersbryggeri]

Its way too scatterbrained though. I'd think a good RPG would need a better framework of ideas and story.

[@Mr-nw7il]

HORRIBLE BOOK 📗!!!!

[@konstelacioni11]

This was such a good podcast. Dr. Richard Carrier seems very informed about the subject.

[@zeinbergess3605]

This was pretty excellent, I'm glad. I was expecting less details. I'm so looking forward to reading more books about history & historians methods/conclusions.

[@Pyrela]

Richard "Intellectual Artillery" Carrier.

[@deehee7380]

+Pyrela ...Dick"circle jerk"Carrier .....is what they call him on campus?

[@deehee7380]

+ajt222...a "university" where they indoctrinate the gullible ? When I was there they were pushing the gillman theory which is now like Nebraska Man = BULLSHIT!

[@zsfnationworldoftanksclan3852]

NO he is actually NOT an "Intellectual Artillery" he's a clown OUTSIDE his own Mythicist community, he is FULL of misinformation and full of half truths. He claims anyone who studies history will agree with him BUT I can EASILY debunk him on many issues WITHOUT using Bart Ehrman as a source.

[@ThomasReardonM]

Eat My Never was a person.

[@tejasgreen1717]

No you can’t. Liar.

[@geezzerboy]

One of Richard's interesting ideas is in one of his books. He more or less said that theology didn't necessarily have to be nonsense. That opens the door to creating your own sensible theology. Not necessarily rational. but some story that makes sense of your particular experience of life.

[@suleymanbabak1973]

I'll create one with Batman

[@JM-ot8ux]

@@suleymanbabak1973 I want Robin Hood. Errol, not Kevin.

[@ReallyTwistedHumor]

"The Gospels were written in the '70s" the mental images I have right now are excellent

[@Martin-sp4zf]

I went to college in the 70's.

[@northoforacle]

Good episode. The theologian (now atheist) Robert M. Price has a podcast called "The Human Bible” where he talks about the origins of the Christ myth and other topics. It’s interesting to hear a professional debunk the bible relentlessly “like a bull in a china shop”.

[@Icefan30]

I've been waiting for this podcast for a long time! So glad it's here!

[@Phi1618033]

The main problem I have with Carrier's hypothesis is that there were certainly enough itinerant hucksters wandering around 1st century Galilee and Judea that it would be unnecessary for the early christians to make one up out of thin air. Why start from page one when you can start from page thirty?

[@CelestialWoodway]

I don't understand your point.

[@GIANTSECRETS]

NO. DID HORUS EXIST. NO. JESUS WAS CREATED TO CREATE SIN SO SIN COULD BE PAID FOR.

[@Observer-a11]

+GIANTSECRETS Jesus paid for our sins, now let's get the money's worth! :-)

[@QuazarProductions]

Now THAT is substantial information, deserving of study & perpetuation. Thanks for sharing :)

[@PlayaIonel]

1. "Why must everything be seen or proven before certain people will believe." Not everything must be seen or proven, if your friend tells you that he bought a dog you don't have to see it to believe it(although he could lie to you). However if he tells you that he bought a dragon with supernatural powers, you do. That's how healthy rational thinking works. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to support them.

[@sendiulo]

I have to listen to your podcasts more often. Until now the length frighten and prevented me from doing so.

[@jameshicks8454]

Hey Michael! Thanks for your support. But as God I need to tell you that you are on your own. I gave you reason and all the tools you need to integrate the universe into your life. Don't let others lead you, trust your own mind, we are one I am God.

[@blackice9088]

Great Podcast Seth and Dr. Carrier!

[@artistmacd]

The thing about the universe is, it's not sentient. It doesn't care if it makes sense to you, it simply does what it does. PEOPLE care about things. People have sympathy and empathy tempered by intelligence and that is where morality comes from. There is no greater purpose in the universal sense, we're here because life was an inevitable thing in the span of the universe. What matters is what we as individuals, and greater as a species make matter. Try to alleviate suffering, and avoid harm.

[@k0smon]

You would love the book "Antiquity Unveiled". It says that Jesus was based on Apollonius of Tyana.

[@oscargordon]

When you say "an historical perspective" you do realize that the only perspective we have is what other people wrote about somebody who may be only a fictional character, although it may be loosely based on a real person. So if the NT writers didn't say it, then there is no way that any of your imaginings of Jesus can be considered remotely "historical".

[@veganatheistandmore]

This was a great show. Thanks to you both!

[@TI_Ted]

Richard Carrier has changed my life x

[@mj-jo8es]

I would really like to know Dr. Carrier's opinion on John M. Allegro's body of work.

[@AzimuthTao]

Atheism should also include a healthy skepticism about any unsubstantiated claims. To just casually say "I still think Jesus did exist but wasn't the son of god", is not practicing the type of critical thought that gets you to atheism in the first place. Maybe Jesus did exist but after listening to Carrier's evidence, I have a strong suspicion that he didn't.

[@jimkordahl9490]

Awesome show and what a great guest!

[@JackieCorey-hz9pu]

Dr Ray Hagins has excellent videos on this subject.

[@Manifestatheist]

Great show, Seth! My favorite yet! Wouldn't it be fun to see Ehrman and Carrier debating each other on their different views of the Bible? I would pay to see that!

[@ladyethyme]

Ehrman won’t debate Carrier. He knows he can’t win.

[@blacksabbath1022]

I've said this since I was a little kid. It makes no sense that if a God brought a son down or took human form it wouldn't be him writing the scriptures. Christians always work around the OT but the NT has major problems too. I can't fathom how this doesn't make sense to people that a Jesus wouldn't have wrote his own words down. It's ridiculous and nobody has a good rebuttal for it. If it's true it'd be a lot easier to say it was infallible when it was coming straight from the source, not multiple men years later

[@isaiahmyers4029]

FINELY! I have scavenged all across the internet for a video about this topic. Thank you TTA. I want to yell now but this will half to do.

[@artistmacd]

All I can say, is if you studied the actual science behind the questions you keep asking, you'll get a much more satisfying answer than "A God for which i have no evidence did it". Good luck to you as well.

[@Monkofmagnesia]

Skip to 7:45. That's when Dr. Carrier appears.

[@Gwaithmir]

I have read over a dozen books on the historicity of Jesus. I have come to the conclusion that there was an historical Jesus, but that the biblical Jesus is fictional.

[@jameswillmott3d]

"The evidence is the complexity of the universe and of life itself" Simplicity is the hallmark of design, therefore the admission that the universe is complex, is the admission that it was not intelligently designed.

[@somiokeke3752]

how is simplicity an hall mark of design?

[@rationalmuscle]

I just watched his documentary on KZbin. Such a loss... such an amazing player. As for the rest, we agree there too. : )

[@IAMELIPHAS]

"The head is disproportionately small for the body, the face unnaturally narrow and the forehead foreshortened, and ears lost. The front and back images, in particular of the head, do not match up precisely, and the back image is longer than the front. The back of the head is wider than the front of the head. The hair is hanging straight down, as if the man was sitting."

[@jeffandersen7397]

Carrier does his homework, then he does your homework. His debates are brutal, he just cleans the floor with whomever he's up against

[@KendrixTermina]

Still, I'm gonna quote this "Mark originally ended with the women not telling anyone" into the face of anyone who calls the ressurection historical ("Lots of witnesses are named"...) to my face again...

[@MithranArkanere]

After reading articles on themes such as history and archeology I think now that there was some guys called "Jesus" but the "Jesus" of the bible is a fictional construct made up by mixing some real historical figures (some of them called Jesus) and some fictional ones. You know, just like Santa. For example, now it seems that people stopped living around Nazareth some hundred years before year 1. And no settlement was there until about 200 years after year 1. How could Jesus be "of Nazareth?".

[@cugir321]

I'm not an atheist but I appreciate Dr. Richard Carrier. I hear his honesty. A search for the truth. I'd like to hear his thought's on how the concept's of Christ came into being. The concepts are huge. Especially his thoughts on fear in the second half of Matt 5. I think within those verses lies the meaning of life. It is coded but clear. Seems many people fight Jesus because of the depth and difficulty of giving in to the concepts. No matter who you believe came up with the ideas

[@areuarealman7269]

So if I am alone with no conditioning from my environment @ 0 people involved there is no way I need a supernatural savior if I have food shelter etc .....that makes no sense my God would kick your gods ass .

[@oldpossum57]

“within those verses lies the meaning of life. It is coded but clear.” I think you got a knock on the head. Concussions are more dangerous than you think.

[@timothymostad8968]

this one should really wake you up;The Permian period witnessed the diversification of the early amniotes into the ancestral groups of the mammals, turtles, lepidosaurs and archosaurs. The world at the time was dominated by a single supercontinent known as Pangaea, surrounded by a global ocean called Panthalassa. The extensive rainforests of the Carboniferous had disappeared, leaving behind vast regions of arid desert within the continental interior.

[@Voland0]

I was curious about that, also. I *did* notice that he didn't mention archaeological findings that indicate that the site claimed to be Nazareth since the 300s was previously a burial ground, which should have precluded it from having been a village in the time of King Herod and of Pontius Pilate, two more reliably historical figures than "Jesus of Nazareth". But he raises a good point that maybe there was some *other* Nazareth.

[@carlfuggiasco7495]

Dr. Richard Carrier presents a slick radio talk show performance. He seems assured in his presentation as if his long study of the subject is at the tip of his fingers and flows effortlessly from his tung. He speaks with a commonsense approach and the presentation is convincing. Except for the lack of specific supporting evidence. He mentions other articles, authors, but not actual historic documents written and read by him in their original language. Although he is a scholar, he speaks too much like a radio talk show host. Me, I am a scientific thinker and an Existentialist. I do not waste my time on wither there is a God or not. However, I am not fool enough to doubt the existence of the Jewish royal that is Jesus Ben Joseph who has been called the Christ etc. The Catholic church has done much to hide that wonderful historical story. I would love it if the world could explore and verify the details of that human’s life and skip all the deity attachment.

[@k0smon]

It depends upon what the 'design' is supposed to do. If it is a complex problem, it well may take a complex design to solve that problem.

[@scottbignell]

Yes. Sorry, I meant to say 30/40 years later. I know Ehrman does think Jesus may have predicted the fall, but I don't go that far. His reasoning is that given the tensions, it probably wasn't that hard of a prediction to make LOL! But yeah, I put Mark in the 70s - still very much within living memory for some. It really comes down to what we view the gospels as - complete literary constructions, or literary constructions that preserve known oral traditions. I think the latter.

[@folcon500]

It only remains 'possible' because we do not yet possess the means to disprove it. There exists no god-like entity within the known universe, that much is absolutely certain. Whether there exists some form of Deity outside the known universe, remains a mystery, although, according to our current understanding, this is probably unlikely.

[@chili40m]

Totally agreed with you dude! Because the letter J' never existed until the late 16th century. According to the early alphabets the letter I' was literally transformed into a J' from a Greek God iesus.

[@Mateo12485]

Please, please tell me you're joking. A theory is a reason why something happens. Just because its a theory doesn't mean its not true. Some aren't and some are. Gravity is not a theory. There are many theories (reasons why) behind gravity, but gravity itself is not a theory.

[@oscargordon]

Virgin births were a common plot element in ancient stories. Powerful heroes were either born of Kings, or were born of women impregnated by a god. No hero was ever fathered by a young, pimply Roman soldier stationed in the backwaters of the Empire. Greek father's got so tired of their daughters coming to them saying Zeus got them pregnant that they started putting them to death if they tried that line. Guess Joseph just fell for it.

[@IAMELIPHAS]

"I am forced to conclude that the image was formed by a burst of radiant energy, light if you will. I think there is no question about that." "What better way, if you're a deity, of regenerating faith in a sceptical age, than to leave evidence 2000 years ago that could be defined only by the technology available in that sceptical age." "The one possible alternative is that the images were created by a burst of radiant light, such as Christ might have produced at the moment of resurrection."

[@hmongcha1237]

I am an atheist but do not judge religious people as long as they don't condemn or hurt anyone else. I will however not discount any events in the Gospels simply because of synchronicity with other stories. Look at MLK and Malcolm X: Both have very similar lives :African American, fathers are Christian ministers, arrested, rejected by own people, assassinated, dead at 39. Sometimes same shit happens to different people.

[@markpestell1413]

The 27 books of the Gospels, Epistles, Revelation and Acts, known to Christians as the New Testament Bible were compiled from loose scrolls, and finished at different dates from 75 AD to 150 AD. Jesus and the stories were at first told publically for decades before they were recorded on parchment. The story was constantly improved, distorted and changed, for around 300 years. The stories of the accepted Gospels all tend to duplicate each other yet, are contradictory as if they were a type of dictation taken down. Evidence for his birth does not exist as the year 0 does not exist, the date of his death and the time of his death are recorded differently in the Gospels. Almost no evidence of biographical information within the Gospels is found at all about the existence of 'Jesus" the man who was said to walk the earth 2000 years ago. No evidence about what he looked like, the sound of his voice. His lineage is totally made up, one Gospel writes he came from Adam? another that he came out of Abraham's family? The New Testament Bible is a faith document, not an academic document. For Jesus' existence to be proven it must be based on sources at the time, letters, artifacts etc. The New Testament as a concept was based on the Church's word fixing the story into stone after the Synod of 397, as Canon law, it was illegal to question the Bible or the Church from this date, thus the law stated Jesus 'must have lived'. There were ancient writers around in the first 3 decades of the first century yet nothing has ever come to light as witnesses, outside of the Gospels to suggest evidence that 'If someone did walk around the streets after being crucified, it would have been recorded somewhere'.All of the Jesus miracles would have been big news but nothing real apart from the Gospels is recorded, and glorified by the Church afterwards. A lot of the New Testament is actually for want of a basic word, a 'copy' from Ancient Egyptian legends and or Zoroastrian books - such as a god who could change water into wine, rose from the dead, was a good samaritan, a virgin birth, the god-son died for the believer's souls etc ( dated as paganism pre Christian) Tim Freke and Peter Gandy have found 180 similarities between the Jesus written about in the Bible and those of earlier religions - the New Testament Gospels, Jesus is copycat based on old myths ) These two historian academics found real hard evidence about the similarity, The development of the Church - its rise to power, influence and its success has more to do with Paul, Peter and later Emperor Constantine plus the hard work of those former slaves who once given freedom ( living often in terrible poverty around the Empire,) was achieved wanted to believe so strongly in an afterlife as a reward for suffering throughout their lives - flocked to Christianity. These ex-slaves gradually moved into local government, trade, farming land they owned and crafts that by 290AD were great enough in number not to be ignored by Constantine who then had to accept the importance of the Christian faith to find enough soldiers for his civil war. Later as emperor, Constantine first made the 'Nicene Creed' in 325AD and then the 'Edict of Milan' just before he died 337 AD, making the Jesus story constitutional law throughout the empire, further stamping Jesus' existence, yet without any evidence. No real eyewitness or material evidence has ever been found as historical sources, to prove Jesus lived. As with all religions, belief is all in the mind. The church pulled a centralised confidence trick, to gain wealth and power. The church's marketing exercise was simply magnificent along with the ultimate logo, notably 'the cross'. The first 1500 years of the Jesus story were based on a strict doctrine and obedience, where questioning and evidence gathering were forbidden, the story of Jesus was just repeated without questioning, and no evidence of Jesus exists.

[@jkeyes1000]

In order to understand Jesus' attempt to "open people's minds" (which was the point of our discussion) you need to see where he was coming from AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY whether he was fictional or not. In other words: He was a rebel. He opposed The High Priest Of Israel, taught what amounted to heresy and/ or blasphemy in the synagogue, couldn't care less about "family values" and generally threatened to set Jerusalem on its ear. His purpose was evidently to make people think.

[@JohnMRockwell]

As a kid being raised Roman Catholic I got in a lot of trouble questioning what the nuns tried to shove down our throat.

[@prettyprudent5779]

So glad you guys are around!!?!

[@olhcarter7035]

What about people having been healed, saying they were touched by God? Just when I was thinking I was starting to understand I run into this. Now I don't know again

[@Drquestron]

According to the Bible, he has the power to create the entire universe and you're going to tell me with a straight face that he couldn't figure out how to create a simple communication system to present his message? The Bible was the best he could come up with? The Catholic church didn't seem to have much trouble staying in power- if God would have paid even the slightest attention, he could have prevented the corruption. Common sense says he would have- if he really existed.

[@jkeyes1000]

I understand the context very well. And I see that The Church itself in numerous instances FAILS TO UNDERSTAND the proper meaning of it, which is the strongest evidence (to my mind) that no one associated with that institution had a hand in fabricating it. There are passages which if correctly understood would be an embarrassment to The Church, which they have virtually sidestepped for 2,000 years. Why would they so inconvenience themselves? It makes no sense.

[@IAMELIPHAS]

"Jesus' face, body, arms, and fingers were unnaturally thin and elongated, one forearm was longer than the other, and his right hand is too long. The man is improbably tall, between 5' 11½" and 6' 2" tall. Jews who lived in the 1st century were much shorter than this." (As someone has commented, if Jesus was really this tall he would have really stood out and there would have been no need for Judas to point him out to the Romans) (continued)

[@1pichucho]

Let's change the world and make it soo much better!

[@Drquestron]

That said, I am in no way saying that the account written isn't exaggerated or a flat out lie. As they say, history is written by the victors. However, if I can find several other reliable sources that confirm what is written, then I can be more certain that the events described actually DID occur. Many Biblical accounts don't have any external verification. This doesn't mean that those events didn't occur- just that they are suspect.

[@ardalla535]

As Richard says, the Nazareth mentioned in the gospels certainly existed by the later 1st century. However, the town itself, as described therein, is dubious at best. The village described had a significant population because Jesus returns there and draws quite a crowd who apparently knew him well. It is also implied that Mary and Joseph had long lived in the village and had ancestors there. So, the description given is of a village that probably existed in the mid first century BCE---and there is absolutely no evidence for such a place at that time.

[@scottbignell]

Many other scholars also doubt the interpolation claim. I'm not convinced by the arguments that say it was. It seems like this "no crucifixions" point is just focusing on stuff we don't have - which will ALWAYS be the case when determining ancient history. But we do know: Pilate was fired for harshness in 36, tensions were building, crucifixions did happen during the war, other "prophets" were executed pre-war for stirring up crowds (Theudas was armed?). Jesus' crucifixion is entirely plausible.

[@jkeyes1000]

Neither The Pharisees then, nor the writers of The NT, nor The Church of today have ever understood this passage. It is the key to his message. It is what he meant by "The Son Of God", "The Son Of David", "The Holy Trinity", et al. That we have a conscious PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. Taken together, they constitute our immortal soul. He was trying to show by his own example, how to access The Wisdom Of The Ages by meditating on our eternal experiences.

[@ericjohnson6665]

You know, this question is really quite moot. Jesus referred to himself as the "Bread of Life", meaning, his teachings on how to be a better person are found in the Bible, as well as more expanded versions are also in The Urantia Book, they feed our souls. We have those teachings. They exist now. His life was an example of what a purpose driven life looks like. One can gain inspiration from it if one so chooses. Arguing over whether or not he existed can be an interesting exercise I suppose. But it doesn't answer the question: "Would you be willing to allow *who you might be* to continually and painfully triumph over *who you currently are?"* [Jordan Peterson] Becoming more perfect, is an option, but it takes work. It's not for the lazy at heart.

[@jkeyes1000]

It is virtually impossible to verify what someone said or did 2,000 years ago, whether it be a figure from political history (which few question) or religious. Thus an historian is often constrained to use logic and plausibility in order to determine whether the literature is a straightforward account or a piece of fiction. Most historians recognise the potential worth of such ancient writings and would not abandon the study merely on account of "lack of evidence".

[@AzimuthTao]

I'm a little surprised at atheists who say that they still think a guy named Jesus did exist but don't explain why. If this doesn't raise some skepticism about those ideas then you're not doing atheism right.

[@bleirdo_dude]

Julius Caesar was a Christos(title).Gave his life's blood,was seen as a God/son of a God. The Comet of 44 BCE was seen as his soul.His wax effigy was nailed to a cross,was seen as a savior,a craftsmen (military strategy),and related to the Dove symbol(Goddess Venus). Followers rubbed his pyre ash on their foreheads.Forgave sins.Betrayed by Brutus, stabbed by Longinus on 3/15.Deified,and his worship was made official by decree by his heir Augustus(virgin birth thru the God Apollo).

[@scottbignell]

I use the same argument myself when talking to believers: God could have ensured that the original documents never deteriorated in the first place! Paul doesn't say much about Jesus, true, but there shouldn't be any expectation for him to, given his letters are for correspondance to the already converted. But he does say some: That Jesus was a human Jewish man ("born from a woman under the law"), that he had a brother named James, that he was "taken away/betrayed" at night, and was crucified.

[@jkeyes1000]

And how would you know that? I realise it's frightening to some folks to imagine the possibility, but--all it really takes to support my theory is to speculate that the cosmos might be a living organism. Examine the human body at the molecular level and you'll find the same array of chemicals, particulates and gases with no indication of the body that encompasses them. That the universe FUNCTIONS precisely like a human lung is the basis of my argument and it does account for all the phenomena.

[@edgewiseass]

Which is why we only accept as axiomatic the things that are required for us to have a discussion. If they were untrue, it would render any discussion meaningless. So, either there's no point to the discussion or these axioms are true. Yes, we do assume "if it's possible and meaningful for us to have a discussion about this matter, then these axioms are true". This means that a solipsistic viewpoint is not relevant to the discussion.

[@karlbuttler]

Awsome, Richard always has something cool to say..

[@Drquestron]

I guess I'll just have to repeat myself again because you can't seem to remember all my points. -we DON'T know who wrote the Gospels, nor their motivations for doing so. We KNOW that those who wrote them were pretending to be eyewitnesses, so they are already established as liars. Lastly, even if their intentions WERE honorable, (doubtful because they lied about their identities) the were writing HEARSAY- decades after the events took place. No honest, reasonable person can accept them as real.

[@bleirdo_dude]

The ancient Greek mythology of "Rape of Persephone",ancient Babylonian mythology of "Inanna and the Huluppu tree",ancient Sumerian mythology of "Enki and the Making of Man",and "Enki and the Deluge" has many elements of Genesis of the Old Testament.Creation of man,a sacred tree in a garden,a crafty serpent,a great flood/boat,forbidden fruit,Men of renown/hero,and Nephilim origin are in these mythos that predate Genesis.The Bible rewrites these in a monotheistic setting.

[@jkeyes1000]

Do you believe that EVEN IF THAT ASPECT OF THE STORY IS FACETIOUS, that it necessarily discredits the entire thing? Seriously--if we rejected every tale that got embellished by an enthusiastic (or mistaken) historian we'd have to throw out nine tenths of the world's history. To believe that, "Right! That's it. No Jesus, no miracles. Never happened. You can all go home" is far too pre-emptory for someone boasting of a scientific (or even a practical) turn of mind.

[@jkeyes1000]

By the way--the folks that I call "ignorant" (or words to that effect) earned that tag by first calling me something to that effect. I consider it a matter of honour to answer such baseless charges and put the blame where it belongs. If you read the comments that I responded to and you believe ME to be the fool, let me know and we can go at it if you like.

[@k0smon]

"There is no evidence". The mantra of the skeptic. No matter how loud you shout, there IS evidence for the existence of God. Just not overwhelming proof, or you would not have a leg to stand on. Like all skeptics, you sink to name-calling when it is not necessary.

[@jacopman]

Bingo! ......you are the first to notice that..........yup Jaco..........I played the bass for over 40 years but nowadays I'm hooked to playing my Stratocaster like SRV......but still love the bass too! In regard to any ancient accounts historical or not.....they occurred at time when superstition and the supernatural ruled their perception of reality and as a result, we have to take every account from antiquity with a grain of salt and a huge shaker of doubt.

[@jkeyes1000]

There's a difference between "accepting questionable premises" and giving them their due consideration. The pursuit of truth requires examining even the unlikely. To focus solely on what is "probable" may seem like an efficient use of one's time, but--in the end, it is necessarily inconclusive.To argue "lack of evidence" or even "incredible" is of less value to Science than the study of The Possible and The Plausible.The one dismisses, the other at least demonstrates that it MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED.

[@jkeyes1000]

Incidentally--Jesus himself was not in favour of founding a church. When the idea was proposed, he declined, leaving it to Peter. Jesus obviously knew how churches and synogogues distorted the philosophies of its founders and wanted nothing to do with it. He was chiefly concerned with correcting the errors that had been made already, not in creating another hotbed of superstitious nonsense. I don't think he is to blame for choosing the "inefficient and flawed system".

[@jkeyes1000]

Here's something to ponder. Suppose the whole Virgin Birth idea arose out of Jesus' hatred for his mother ("Woman, what have I now to do with thee?"). The thought of having been physically born unto her so repulsed him that he conceded only that she had technically borne him, but--that she in no way conceived his soul, his character, his mind, his person. That he was asserting his individuality, distinguishing himself from this peasant creature who failed to understand him.

[@artistmacd]

you can prove you love your family. love is an emotion and emotions can be read via brain scans. There remains no way of providing proof for God though, that's correct.

[@pooshoveler]

I just saw a commercial for the creationist museum on my KZbin. Lol

[@rationalmuscle]

Here's what I'm saying: MANY scholars doubt the JtB passage in Josephus; no matter, he was beheaded. Again, see my sources: it's 'crucifixion' that was used for ROMAN citizens or, rarely, insurgents. That's my entire point. Theudas led an armed assault against Roman occupancy, and even he was just beheaded. The same insurgency goes for "The Egyptian." The question isn't meant to be nit-picky: find an example of historical crucifixion before the war. There's a LOT of history behind crucifixion.