Tutorial - How to find the neck break angle when designing a guitar

[@NeoRichardBlake]

As a former drafter, I can appreciate a good set of drawings. :)

[@Ibaneddie76]

IT'S COOL TO LOOK BACK ON THESE VIDEOS NOW THAT I HAVE MORE BUILDING EXPERIENCE. THE FIRST TIME I WATCHED THIS I UNDERSTOOD IT BUT IT TOOK A MINUTE TO FIGURE IT OUT ON MY OWN DRAWINGS. NOW I WATCH THIS AND IT MAKES PERFECT SENCE AND DOESN'T SEEM SO DIFFICULT, STILL A VERY GENEROUS VIDEO TO GIVE TO THE BEGINNER GUITAR BUILDERS. THANKS BEN.

[@MrSnowboard275]

I gotta tell you man, these guitar build videos are so cool and helpful. You're really helping a lot of people with building cool custom guitars that wouldnt turn out half as good without you.

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Thank you, and it's my pleasure!

[@mikeldavies1916]

Been a bit worried about getting the angle right, and this video just solved all my issues

[@LilSirAxolotl]

I needed this info badly. Thanks so much! I want to build an electric ukulele and there are no good tutorials out there. So I try to translate guitar building tutorials for what I need. Since I only have enough wood for a neck through design this was very helpful to get me started

[@bramdriessens5942]

Awesome video! Learned so much in 10 minutes!

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

+Bram Driessens glad to help, it's a question that comes up so often and I actually remember agonizing over the same thing way back when. All the best, ben

[@SteveBlackdog]

I am doing an LP build and your videos are a massive help. Thank you many times thank you.

[@NoComplyTim]

Your timing is impeccable Ben, you always have the answer ready for when I realise there's a question to be asked! I must admit that as an engineering draughtsman I do get a bit obsessed with accuracy, but since embarking on the sawdust making, I've learned that wood is a bugger to cut to a high degree of accuracy, but easy to tweak with sharp tools. Please keep inspiring this confidence.

[@jerzycapala8426]

Pure awesomness Ben. I never thought it can be that easy to work it out - now it seems like it is. Thank you so much for your time and expertise and most of all for great entertainment as I find your podcasts to be highly addictive.

[@stuartdocherty8409]

Glad I found this, have an ES125 style kit here and when considering the neck angle, went to the internet. as you suggested, I decided to measure my neck and body and do a cad drawing, at that point I would be able to rotate the neck about it's junction with the body (14th fret) and get the strings to hit the saddle, as required. Was fairly surprised to end up with 5.6 degrees as a result, but then when you consider the height of the bridge and the hump of the top, that's what you end up with... Images of real ES125's on the net don't look so severe, but my Harmony Meteor is pretty much the same angle... thanks for your help on this...!

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Pleasure is all mine, it is funny how we can agonise over a detail and a drawing just makes everything so clear! Thanks for watching! B

[@michaelw.611]

What's the next step? After determining the neck break angle, how can you be sure you're following the correct angle when setting the neck? Do you sand down the neck pocket towards the neck? Do you glue shims to the neck to increase the angle? What's the practical application of this measurement?

[@TheSarcasticEngineer]

Totally agree with the drawing out concept. It's virtually fool proof- a lot of students figure if they can use a calculator, they'll be fine and so will their work- I say that's how people get hurt; get it laid out, look at what you're dealing with, it gives you more an intuition about the problem and what you can expect.

[@gramursowanfaborden5820]

much better to see what you're actually gonna make than an arbitrary bunch of numbers

[@rabbitspliff]

So many people asking what book you were referring to. Andrés Perez answered this for cfhmachado 2 years ago - Martin Koch: Building Electric Guitars. However since you're reading this online, here's something you don't even have to wait for. www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/ This allows you to generate reference tables for practically every fret layout under the sun. It's very easy to use for normal fret layouts, because it defaults to that, but it's adjustable enough that if you want to make a fanned fret eight string baritone with frets for 19 tone equal temperament... you'd be off your rocker quite frankly, but you can get all the necessary measurements in detail. www.ekips.org/tools/guitar/fretfind2d/#len=25.5&lenF=26.5&lenL=28.5&pDist=0.5&ipDist=0.5&nutWidth=2.148&bridgeWidth=3.284&oE=0.11811&oN=0.09375&oB=0.09375&oL=0.09375&oF=0.09375&oNL=0.09375&oNF=0.09375&oBL=0.09375&oBF=0.09375&root=19&scl=%0A!+12tet.scl%0A!%0A12+tone+equal+temperament%0A12%0A!%0A100.0%0A200.%0A300.%0A400.%0A500.%0A600.%0A700.%0A800.%0A900.%0A1000.%0A1100.%0A2%2F1%0A&numFrets=36&numStrings=8&t%5B%5D=0&t%5B%5D=0&t%5B%5D=0&t%5B%5D=0&t%5B%5D=0&t%5B%5D=0&t%5B%5D=0&t%5B%5D=0&il%5B%5D=25&il%5B%5D=25.5&il%5B%5D=26&il%5B%5D=26.5&il%5B%5D=27&il%5B%5D=27.5&il%5B%5D=28&il%5B%5D=28.5&u=in&sl=multiple&scale=et&o=equal You wouldn't find _that_ in your reference book (for good reason).

[@michaelgervais2901]

I should have read the comments before I asked. Great info! Thanks!!!

[@pskemster]

Awesome tutorial as always Ben! Thanks!

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

My pleasure Patrick, glad I could help

[@paulneeds]

That’s great. Now, carving the pocket or angling the neck heel to fit?

[@scottmyst3562]

I am going to try this out using Adobe Illustrator. Thank you!

[@cfhmachado]

Excellent video, very informative . Thank you for taking the time to explain this

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

My pleasure, thanks for watching!

[@Thunder787]

hi there! could you suggest a good "quick referral" bool like the one you use there? Thanks for your precious LESSONS!

[@wrap-itsolutions2387]

Perfect .... thanks as always!

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

My pleasure. I used to agonise over this and it is such a simple thing to do when it is on paper. Saving others the pain I had is it's own reward. B

[@fusion-music]

Matthijs spoke of micro tilt. I would definately install one.. I have a custom strat on which even set at lowest action, it still wasn't as low as it should be. Hence I fitted micro tilt and got it just right. If you are not experienced at using tools, a micro tilt will probably be needed. You should also drill the cover plate to get access to the microplate. A coin will do as a metal disk.

[@MrZippitydo]

hey great video and thank you so much for helping out new luthiers.i was wanting to know if you could share the information of the book you are using for calculations i have looked for one and cant seem to find any.

[@wohead]

How about accurately achieving the neck angle once drawn? I'm going for a neck thru with a floyd. Once I find my angle on paper, do I create a shim the height of the Floyd, then use the jointer until I get to the desired angle?

[@clintcarlton9224]

Thanks for sharing....great way to work out the angle.....ck Carlton guitars...😊 love your blog

[@christeil5150]

hi! What do you think about breaking the neck angle angling the neck tenon instead the neck pocket (like gibson does)?

[@g2D1]

what is the title of the reference book?

[@greggoett]

I can see needing the neck break angle for acoustic guitars, violins, upright base etc. With CNC mills, routers digging deep pockets or better yet milling the whole face of the guitar to height, parallel neck and body face would solve a lot of issues.

[@kluivertmenezes]

Hey Ben what book is that you’re using for the scale length chart and where can we find that chart for purchase?

[@briw4647]

Very informative. I myself am a practical man and not into maths. But i can follow a diagram to the millimetre. Thank you :-)

[@Beargrizzly76]

Evening Ben. You briefly mentioned the positioning of the volute. Can you go into a bit more detail as to where it should/shouldn't be and why? Cheers!

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Hey, good question, thank you. I'll cover it in podcast 27.. Due soon! In brief though I think that the volute should only start after the nut line.. Ie the entire playable length of the neck should be as straight and level as possible.

[@Beargrizzly76]

Crimson Custom Guitars Great, thanks Ben.

[@matthijsoudkerk7183]

Great vid , thnx for sharing. Im planning a stratocaster build , still not sure if im going to install a microtilt or an angled neck pocket or both. Its gonna have a floyd rose with the base plate resting on the body , i better get some wall paper :)

[@behemothokun]

I might make a program to calculate the angle based on scale-lenght, bridge height, string distance, fretboard height, and the fret where the angle starts (did I forget a parameter?)... sounds like a fun idea.

[@Satchmoeddie]

+Behemothokun It's all simple trigonometry. There are already free trig calculators on line. Sit through some KZbin tutorials on trigonometry, & get the terms down, & the rest is a piece of cake.

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Oooh, I would happily put that on the site with attribution etc of you can make it work online.. I'm tired but can't think of anything you missed.. Anyone else?

[@behemothokun]

+Crimson Custom Guitars I almost forgot about that comment (It's been a year since I made it^^), but yeah, I should definitely build that, like @Seth said, it's basic trigonometry. Let's see when I have some free time this week, I'll send you a mail when it's done.

[@feardiagh]

+Behemothokun If you could work in multi scale, that would make it brilliant. But.. I guess with multiscale it is just where the neck meets and the longest point on the fretboard... hmmm... I need to draw more.

[@rickbloom1869]

Never built a guitar so far but have built several boats. It's exactly the same concept. The first step to building any boat not built by eye is to draw it full size. Ships are done on a computer but same thing. You draw it full size and lay the parts right on the drawing to verify they actually match the true shapes. Boats were very accurately built up to WWII or so by guys with little or no education. They didn't have any math skills yet were able to build shapes far more complex than a guitar just by drawing the parts out life size.

[@jeepd00d]

So just to sum up: You would draw out the setup and just draw a line from the bottom of the bridge to where the neck meets the body....and this will be the neck pocket angle?

[@rlee6503]

Cheers - excellent vid, answered my questions very clearly.

[@markdesantis743]

I think I recognize that book used to get the scale. Is it Melvyn Hiscock?

[@AliBuchan]

Thanks Ben.

[@stevepercival4774]

Thanks for using metric Ben

[@Enski94]

Great video, love your channel!

[@einarabelc5]

Hi Ben, What should I do if a BOLT on neck is such that if I want to lower the action I need to create a cavity for the bridge? How should I "shim" the neck to modify the angle. I'm thinking moving the neck TOWARDS the body would do it but I've never seen a shim like that. Thanks!

[@andrewharper1609]

Thank you.

[@CorollaNut68]

I know this is an old video but perhaps you still check comments. I've been looking for this angle info and not seen it anywhere else. Thanks. If you already have a guitar ( but someone before you changed things), can you lay a straight edge down the neck (when flat) to the bridge to check the angle is correct? I have an old Schecter from a pawn shop. Someone shimmed the neck with a piece of business card and sandpaper and I want to get rid of that or at least do it correctly if the shim is necessary. Should the straight edge meet the bridge at about the same height that your action is supposed to be...like if your string height is supposed to be 6mm (or whatever)...should the straight edge meet the bridge 6mm below the top edge where the string touches?

[@FlibbidyFleu]

Very helpful Ben, Thanks!

[@hoondogg66]

Hey Ben, I just tried this and my angle is closer to 1.5 degrees. Is that right?

[@Zeetwig]

I have have a second question: how small must the neck break angle be to simply ignore it? I tried this method and the result was a neck break angle that was hardly even measurable at the 16th fret, but at the bridge it differed as much as 3,5 mm (between the top of the body had there been no neck break angle at all and the angle I got). I tried some maths and it appears as if the angle is 0,014°... All help is very appreciated!

[@redninja8672]

Got a question. Very good info. I have been looking for this info. Do you measure your bridge so that the strings still have a gap when the saddle is in the lowest position? I’m thinking about bottoming out the saddle to compensate for neck bow under string tension.

[@esa062]

For some reason people seem to think the neck break angle is something you decide. But as Ben explains very well in this, it's something that comes from bridge height and the depth you want to sink the neck in the body. The angle in degrees is a useless piece of information as such. You can't measure the angle accurately enough. If you do it by math, you want to know how much the thru-neck drops from the end of fretboard to the end of body, or how much the neck pocket drops on it's length.

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

exactly! the angle itself is basically meaningless and calculators will cause you no end of trouble, draw it out and then you'll see what you need to do!

[@RuinBird]

Where do you get a good protractor? All I can find are the obvious plastic things or even worse soft aluminum things.

[@thesouthsideshovlerleonard13]

Question: I have a flat top tele. going to route neck pocket 5/8 deep then a 2.5 degree shim. but would rather route than shim so would it go 5/8 then deeper or end my angle at 5/8 depth?

[@Echo3_]

So do you cut the break in the neck pocket or the whole body? I understand the idea just not how to get there

[@yoko5000]

Kinda related, what's your opinion on recessed vs non-recessed bridge mounts (say, for Floyed Rose unit)? When the unit is recessed into the body it changes the whole geometry of the neck angle and such off course. And some ppl say that it changes the way body resonate, to some degree, and thus the sound of the guitar changes. Personally, I like non-recessed just because volume knobs and such feel (and become) less taller in effect. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Thank you.

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Thank you! I am divided about recessed floyd rose mounting, it certainly does result in a slight change of tone as you remove a little body material but that will be very very slight imo. In the end I think that it is down to personal taste and feel in a new guitar. If you are retrofitting then the choice may well have already been made for you. We are fitting schaller floyd rose type trems to a pair of PRS's right now and had no choice but to recess them.. (yes, sacrilegious I know :) )

[@StringCypher]

What book are you using as reference in finding the end of the fretboard?

[@MrEvilWasp]

Your tutorials are simply amazing and very clear to understand. What is the book you are getting measurements from? Peace

[@mattjc]

Melvyn Hiscock's Make Your Own Electric Guitar. Actually a nice read.

[@Spac3Sounds]

Can you guys show how a guitar with led lights in the frets are made Like the bass Chris Wolstenholme from Muse plays Because I have found something called glowdots but im not sure if those have to be installed in the guitar or how they work

[@J-Cardozo]

have you any video about head logos?

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

j bass I have several on how to create inlays.. crimsonguitars.com/guild/basic-inlay-technique-pt1/ and crimsonguitars.com/guild/basic-inlay-technique-pt2/ or are you interested in the design process behind a logo?

[@J-Cardozo]

Yes i am. Theres no much information about it

[@simonderycke7545]

j bass That's what designers are for! Don't think that stuff is easy just because you installed Adobe's creative suite onto your computer.

[@ninosciorra880]

You're simply great

[@michaelbanach9972]

Thanks so much for the vids. Learned a bunch from you. Wondering why you dont want the volute behind the nut. Is it a structural reason or is it because of playability? Thanks

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Hey Michael, I always put a volute in nowadays, it adds strength and if in the correct place aids playing rather than getting in the way. B

[@kenowens2706]

What book were you using?

[@Zeetwig]

Great and informative video! I have just one question: when you draw the line between the point where the neck-body joint is (16th fret) and the base of the bridge, do you draw it to the centre point of the base of the bridge, i.e. directly below the nominal scale length "point"/"line"/"end", or to the front end of the base of the bridge (which would require you to know the length of the bridge)? I cannot make it out by just watching the video, so a clear answer would be golden! Thank you

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

I use the nominal scale length as my focal point, it is generally in the middle of the saddles travel if the bridge is in the right place and once intonated the saddles actual positions will not vary by more than about 3mm, this allows adjustment is necessary..

[@Zeetwig]

Ok great! Thank you so much.

[@buckjackson9964]

Great video. What is the book you referenced? Cheers,

[@buckjackson9964]

+Buck Jackson found below - thanks

[@tompen]

thank you thank you thank you!!!

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

+Tom Ohlsson :) my absolute pleasure!

[@akc5150]

Might be a rediculous question but, do you actually NEED a break angle? I have a 1970's V with no break angle and a newer 2013 V WITH an angle. Personally I prefer the older way. Just wondering if there is any downside to having it straight with a fixed neck.

[@U014B]

akc5150 All that matters is that the string stays above the frets and contacts the bridge with enough wiggle room to adjust to a playable action.

[@christianboddum8783]

Just an idea; for this type of video it would be nice if the camera was looking over your shoulder, so when you draw, we see what you see, istead of having us flipping everything 180 dgr. in our minds :-) k.r. Chr.B.

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

I do so desperately want a go pro for this very reason.. We actually could do with several cameras on at all times to get better shots.. Poor talitha will have so much more work but we will get there.

[@feardiagh]

+Crimson Custom Guitars I would suggest something other than a gopro. They have a very wide angle of capture which will work against you. You can find other small cameras that have a narrower field of view that should work better.

[@cfhmachado]

May I ask the book you were referring to in the video ?

[@andreschannel]

cfhmachado Martin Koch, Building electric guitars

[@ObiWanAugus]

Great!!!

[@vistritha]

excelent video, is what i need for a guitar that i making ;) thanks from mexico.

[@MiguelMorenoGP]

How do you feel about no neck break angle at all?

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

It's down to the player really, as a luthier I have to build what feels comfortable to them.. However, I do like streamlined Guitars with low strings and if a trem and pickups can be below the level of the top then you can get some nice results.. Problem is though that you can go too low and end up with the plectrum hitting the top and all sorts of annoying little problems. Sexy looks and playability should both be as important as each other imo. Thanks for watching!

[@micheloderso]

Crimson Custom Guitars Hi Ben, i completely agree in your meaning, at one of your podcasts i answered the question of the Neck-angle already. Again, only at "archtop-Guitars" is cutting a neck angle into the tenon of the neck. This angle is about 4,5°, not 90°-also 85,5°. At a "normal" electric Guitar is no angle in need. The angle the strings will have comes out of the hight of the saddle and the bridge hight. Is this correct, what do you think? Sorry for my bad technical english.

[@bcstrings1]

what about the 8 string can you do a vid or maybe be a build of that??

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

We have three 8 strings due to be built starting in a few months, I'll see what I can film of them :)

[@TempoDrift1480]

I always get a lot of strange looks when folks see wrapping paper at my house but seemingly don't give gifts. Figure that one out.

[@LilYeshua]

Quite elementary! Thanks.

[@GabPren]

is it possible a guitare with no neck break angle???

[@Erowens98]

+Gabriel Yes, Fender does it all the time. Just route a shallower pocket for the neck, or rout a cavity for your bridge. I personally use a very shallow break angle in my guitars. But not non existent. 1-2 degrees. I like the way this feels compared to the 3-4 on gibson styles or the 0 on strat copies (I've never actually held a real strat so i don't know about that)

[@jimmyspage9650]

Lol, it took me almost half way thru the vid to see that you were drawing to yourself and not the camera. Time to rewind, my goodness. Lol Great info though, thanks!

[@GuilhermeDinizLZ]

perfect!

[@BigEdWo]

i once built a guitar and did exactely the same. it worked out. but i will never again build a guitar, it's exhausting if you have no templates and proper tools and pretty expensive eventually. i think i spent 200 hours and 900 Euros, not to mention the time you need to plan that first guitar. i never play this guitar. the neck feels uncomfortable, i don't like the shape of the body anymore. i also bought some expensive low impedance pickups. just the best for my selfmade guitar. i even don't like how it sounds. the only benefit is, now i know how guitars a built, what mother of pearls smells like when filed.

[@einarabelc5]

Half of engineering is making sure you enter the right numbers on your calculator. Trust me, is the second thing they teach you. The first is that you make sure you want to be one.

[@moogoomoogoo5990]

He’s so serious all these years ago.

[@spamnegg.1798]

I hate the feel of guitars with a break angle like Les pauls as I love recessed bridges which give a low profile feel, just wondering does the angle do anything to influence the tone or attack of the guitar?

[@Erowens98]

+Spam'n'egg. I feel a neck break angle makes you pick deeper so your picking is more aggressive. Also less chance of scratching your finish, this is one of the reasons strats almost always have pickguards.

[@epicwombatproduction]

an inch is 2.54 cm, so 5 mm is about 1/5 of an inch.

[@Satchmoeddie]

+epicwombatproduction A 15mm socket fits NOTHING in inches in a standard wrench set, but IF you have a pre 1950s socket set, GM used 19/32" fractional bolts, and the 19/32" sockets do fit a 15mm hex bolt. So 15mm is closer to 19/32", which is OVER 1/2", in fact it is enough over 9/16", which won't fit, and a 5/8" wrench won't even grab a 15mm nut. 25.4mm = 1 SAE inch. 6mm is under 1/4". Metric potentiometers come in 6mm, & 7mm, & a few are 6.4mm which will sloppily fit a 1/4" knob. 16mm is almost exactly 5/8".

[@Erowens98]

+Seth B 1/4" is 6.35 mm

[@NoneNone-gk9wt]

Oh stop follow the rules of physics the proper head stock angle is 5 .3 deg E.B.B. guitars here.

[@cunninghamguitarz9828]

kool lesson

[@Billo1281]

What?

[@prophetsnake]

Neck angle, not break angle. Sometimes also referred to as neck rake in english, which might account for the confusion with this term in the burgeoning world of DIY guitar building. Break angle refers to the angle of a string's path over a bridge, nut or saddle.