TWiN 45: Acupuncture modulates the immune system

TWiN discusses research showing that sciatic nerve activation with electroacupuncture at the sciatic nerve controls systemic inflammation and rescues mice from polymicrobial peritonitis, by inducing vagal activation of aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase, leading to the production of dopamine in the adrenal medulla.
Show notes at www.microbe.tv/twin/twin-45/
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[@LisaMartinez-ri6ve]

Great episode. Thank you. So enjoyed it😊

[@tiagomarques715]

In clinical practice, dopamine can be used as a vasopressor in septic shock, so it can be used in a trial

[@emom358]

In my area, the insurance company won't cover it as acupuncture, it is called 'dry needling'. I've had it done to my knee and shoulder/neck area. I got a lot of pain relief from that procedure, and I'm currently looking for someone in my area to go back to it.

[@lindaannb]

That is interesting. My physical therapists do dry needling but have told me that it is distinctly different than acupuncture. Acupuncture uses needles along meridian lines to stimulate energy flow within the body. Dry needling uses needles inserted into muscle to release trigger points within muscles to relieve tension and pain in the muscle. Dry needling has helped my low back muscle spasms but hasn’t worked well for my upper back. Either way, I hope you can find the help that has worked for you.

[@Virusesluna]

Amazing discussion

[@mkilptrick]

Fascinating discussion.

[@tonaruch8623]

Tim, welcome back from Hong Kong. thanks for sharing this deep dive into acupuncture. I hope your cousin listens and will impress his new wife

[@Mark_Ocain]

Pseudoscience can have some placebo effects. For minor aches and pains, if the person believes it helps, no harm. Treating sepsis with acupuncture sounds more than a little wild and dangerous though. I don't doubt acupuncture is popular in Europe - many EU countries embrace other 'alternative therapies' such as Homeopathy.

[@srh1957]

Not really acupuncture is it but targeted electrical simulation of specific areas. Rather different to sticking pins in the myriad of “authentic” meridians.

[@Peter_S_]

Electrostimulation I feel is a complete perversion of acupuncture.

[@jaykanta4326]

@@Peter_S_ Acupuncture is theatrical placebo.

[@Peter_S_]

@@jaykanta4326 You're so smart. That's why acupuncture has been used for surgical anesthesia in humans and in veterinary practice for 3000 years. You just have ALL the answers and ALL the knowledge. 🤪

[@jaykanta4326]

@@Peter_S_ Still no scientific evidence it works. Just a bunch of testimonials, which is the first tactic of quacks.

[@Frithogar]

I tried acupuncture to deal with cluster headaches. It did not help, but neither did conventional medicine. I discovered that we can have quite different blood pressure readings on either side of the body - which has intrigued me up to today.

[@Peter_S_]

In all serious take a look into the effect of small (pencil eraser sized) doses of psilocybin mushrooms. I read about this over 20 years ago on a site devoted to cluster headaches and migraines where people were reporting that sub-effective doses were capable of aborting a headache and providing a prophylactic effect for a period of multiple weeks.

[@Frithogar]

@@Peter_S_ Yeah, it's called cluster-busting. However, I am in long-term remission so I avoid anything that might bring them back 🤕

[@deborahfreedman333]

When much younger, I was plagued by migraine headaches. My physician father suggested I get botox injections along my hairline. Surprisingly, it worked, and I never had another migraine. If your headaches return, you might consider botox.

[@Frithogar]

@@deborahfreedman333 Clusters are not actually headaches but facial neuralgia. But I hope your experience helps someone. Pointless pain is of no use to anyone.

[@Gina-dn6xm]

Cytoklines has been studied by Dr Bruce Patterson for years. I think he has been mostly ignored by the medical establishment.

[@priyasingh-po5yr]

vagus nerve is directly connected to the brain from the gut hence its important to keep the gut microbiome healthy to address a lot of health issues especially psychological and psychiatric issues

[@zehkuh6569]

In Germany, acupuncture is actually covered by health insurance for pain management. There are some good studies on it working in that area, otherwise it would not be covered.

[@sciencefliestothemoon2305]

Like the review in the lancet years ago, that showed no effects on anything.

[@jaykanta4326]

Basic acupuncture is quackery, nothing more.

[@annh.8290]

Very interesting, I hope there are ongoing studies on this.

[@terenzo50]

Can acupuncture cure trypanophobia?

[@Peter_S_]

🤔

[@razerginn]

Allright Placebo Affect. O.k. just my bias on accupuncture want to find this study. Like to know the placebo

[@Peter_S_]

A friend of mine was responsible for bringing acupuncturists from China to Texas during the Nixon administration where they demonstrated veterinary surgery on horses using only acupuncture for anesthesia. You should check your hubris at the door. Acupuncture is absolutely legitimate. This is not acupuncture and it seems a frankensteinish mockery of real acupuncture.

[@KGTrigger]

Care to share a source for this study? Not that I doubt that you can perform surgery without anesthesia. The part I doubt is that horses did not feel pain due to acupuncture. How does one even objectively measure pain in a horse? Ask how they feel?

[@Peter_S_]

@@KGTrigger Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine is a thing and has been a thing for thousands of years. You can research it. Try researching it next time you get access to the Internet, if you ever get access to the Internet. Just because you don't understand doesn't invalidate thousands of years of people practicing Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine with success.

[@nottooherbal]

Interesting.

[@Virusesluna]

Gate control

[@KGTrigger]

Thank you for the uncritical take on "acupuncture". Its embarrassing that 3 scientists are unable to discern between acupuncture (pseudoscience) and something pretending to be acupuncture (in reality just electrical stimulation NOT acupuncture). Please invite a skeptic onto your show the next time you try to discuss an article on any form of pseudoscience, acupuncture included.

[@jaykanta4326]

Electro-acupuncture is not the same as acupuncture. Stop calling it plain "acupuncture". Acupuncture is pure theatric quackery. Electro-acupuncture has real potential and should be addressed by it's full name.

[@KGTrigger]

Yeah, this is pretty bad discussion. Acupuncture is bogus. Electroacupuncture is just an attempt to rebrand something legitimate (electrical nerve stimulation) as acupuncture in order to muddy the waters and score a win for alternative medicine.

[@dawgdrum]

I’ve had a doctor use acupuncture on me for many years. It works. But you have to have the right practitioner. Who knows what they’re doing. I don’t think these gentlemen really know what they’re talking about and I wouldn’t consider anything they’re taking too seriously. basically, acupuncture is very powerful and it works. Don’t get your information from Wikipedia or other questionable sources get it from people who asked actually experienced acupuncture from highly qualified doctors, or Chinese practitioners.

[@10bohemian]

I had acupuncture done for a chronic pain in my left knee in Manila 50 years ago by a mainland Chinese acupuncturist. It worked. No more pain. He cautioned me though that many acupuncturists are not as skilled and well trained.

[@georgemarsh6303]

My acupuncturist was Wu Wei Ping (now retired) in San Francisco. She was the real deal who also warned me about the many beginning acupuncturists in the US that were weak compared to mainland acupuncturists. I tried Kaiser and local practitioners who unfortunately weren't close to her very powerful approach. Let's hope it's not becoming a lost art. @@10bohemian

[@helengarrett6378]

I did for back pain and It didn't work.

[@georgemarsh6303]

Depends on the practitioner.@@helengarrett6378

[@jaykanta4326]

@@georgemarsh6303 No, it doesn't, it's quackery. Not a single scientific publication has found anything other than spurious results when practiced against a known placebo.

[@wallacegrommet9343]

Acupuncture is sham medical theater