Two views on LGBT and the Church - Andrew Bunt & Charlie Bell

[@ray162738]

This was such a great conversation!!! I was so impressed with Andrew’s eloquence and commitment to speaking the truth in love, even in the tough answers. Thanks so much for doing this!

[@trisheds45]

Kitchen floor moments happen in my life as a Christian woman who was divorced against her will and chooses to live celibate and have not remarried. Loved Andrews answer. Fullness of life is living, abiding in Jesus.

[@leenieledejo6849]

Praise God! 🙏 By your faithfulness and living, active trust in his words, your life itself is a witness. There's too little spoken by preachers about this issue (what the world calls "remarriage" but Jesus calls ADULTERY) and it was the open portal for homosexual fornication to be welcomed in "churches". I have never met anyone in a "remarriage" who is at peace. Rebellion does not bring peace. You're a true child of God and follower (in the true sense i.e to imitate) of Christ. Bless you. "And he said unto them: "Whoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, commits adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she commits adultery" (Mark 10:11-12) "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, *nor adulterers* nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

[@AnneWitton]

Thank you Andrew for being compassionate, gracious, clear, wise and biblical. Great conversation.

[@mattholder7022]

Justin, Andrew is an excellent guest on the show. I enjoyed and found all his comments excellent. He found the right balance of pointing to and using scripture and speaking to real life experience. Please have him on again in the future.

[@tobyramsden4904]

I agree wholeheartedly with those comments. It was an excellent discussion between two participants who listened to each other and could disagree without rancour.

[@Indorm]

What is more beautiful than a young person who chooses whole-heartedly to follow Jesus and do what the Scriptures ask of him, even if it's hard?

[@akindelebankole8080]

All the controversies around sexuality and gender is literarily causing distractions for believers on their individual spiritual journeys. Their hearts and minds have become wicked, unloving and ungodly, in their involvement in the affairs of others such as the LGBTQ communities. The less compassionate believers are towards people who are different, the more they sew seeds of doubt in other believers and would be believers. The creation of both men and women should already give a clue to believers that the God images in human beings are individual aspects of God, authentically manifested in each person. The writers of the Bible were wrong in their inabilities to truly analyze the world around them. They were blinded by the debauchery and decadence around them and wrongly codified evil against people with genuine love for one another. Unfortunately, many more evils were further codified against so many groups such that believers are admonished to do evil on so many levels, it is insane. This problem of Christian admonishments of evil against others was contained within the Roman empire (essentially Europe) for centuries, until conquering greedy desires pushed them to colonize and impose the Christian ideology on the rest of the world. And as is also adopted by their sister religion Islam, Christianity has spread hate of the other to world, even where those hates did not exist before. Now we have all inherited the hateful codified evil doctrines of Euro-Christian culture and Arab-Muslim culture which are causing not just unavoidable separations and suffering between peoples, but also separation within people groups, down to the families. These horrible codified texts are the reasons why secularism (in the form of science and justified knowledge) will be the only antidote to the dogmatic mob mentality of believers. Due to the wicked pronouncements and the mandated adherence of believers to the evil commands, skepticism, critical thinking and fact-based secular systems will eventually take over as the better foundational community building method. In modern times, when there is more real time communication within the whole world, bad ideas will ultimately die once unscrupulous apologetics have exhausted their efforts to deceive the masses. Only a matter of time.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Jeesus drowned millions of babies

[@DIBBY40]

And what can be harder for a young person who is gay than facing down the intolerance of the evangelical church, and accepting himself as he is?

[@coloradodutch7480]

@@DIBBY40 Hell seems to be harder

[@DIBBY40]

@@coloradodutch7480 I don't respect any deity that needs to threaten us to get us to love him. That's abuse.

[@elizabethmcilwain9418]

Excellent! Thank you once again for leading a gracious conversation on a tough subject. I listen to this podcast to learn how to talk peacefully and respectfully about my beliefs, and so far all of these conversations have been excellent teachers.

[@AurorXZ]

A marvelous and gracious discussion on the matter-thanks for featuring Andrew and Charlie! I have new books to read now. :D

[@mkgirl1995]

Hearing the intro music also gets me excited. Another great episode!

[@goldmoon7567]

It is blatant double standards how the non-affirming Christians apply the literal meaning approach to the Bible. But only when judging LGBT people and their "acts". At the same time, none of them picks the parts of Scripture where Christ tells them that only those will reach salvation who give away all their material possessions to the poor. The topics regarding LGBT, Gender and the Bible, all boil down to the fundamental question of justice or injustice. Justice would imply a consistently equal approach to ALL Bible passages. Accordingly, justice would require that those who claim that LGBT folk who don't practise celibacy will end up in hell, should give away all they have to the poor. One significance of the LGBT-related discussion is that the homophobic churches and their followers failed the very test that Christ teaches them: the test of being just. Give equal rights and equal treatment, in every sense, to LGBT+ people, otherwise you risk the chance that Christ will bring you down to abject poverty. If you apply the Bible literally to the others, it will be literally applied to you as well. In the Eastern cultures the same principle, in fact universal phenomenon, is known as "karma". “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." The bottom line: Instead of judging one another, what we need is unity. We need to preserve the remnants of our once Christian democratic culture. Before we find ourselves in an era that repeats a very tragic part of our recent history.

[@yahccs1]

This is about the best discussion I've heard on this controversial issue, which puts two different viewpoints across clearly without getting argumentative or abusive. It's sad it is dividing the church, but if we could always discuss 'divisive' issues in an honest and respectful way like this a lot could be better. I think it goes wrong when people who hold strong views on one side or the other have bad attitudes towards those on the other side, or are so absorbed in their own dogmatic view or political agenda they can't stop to learn about the other points of view. It makes me think of demonstrations with political activists shouting, swearing and doing crazy things and calling people names. Not very Christian behaviour! It's hard to stand for truth, righteousness and unity all at the same time, when not everyone agrees on the truth or what is right! It makes me question what 'love' really is (as if I don't already struggle to understand it!)! I think church is at its best when united, diverse and loving all at the same time. If that means we have to make lots of compromises that some of us would prefer not to, that's the way it would be. It might all depend on whether we think 'love' means making everyone feel welcome, accepted and not forced to do anything they don't want to do or told to stop doing what they want to do, or if it means being gently guided (and earnestly urged) to go God's way even when it is hard and might mean admitting something about the way we are and the way we live is wrong. Being accepted and allowed to be the way we are is comforting and not too challenging. Being challenged to change in a way that makes us follow God better seems to be a better kind of love - with a healthy fear of God and with eternal consequences in mind. One is easier and the other is more helpful in the long run! The second can seem harsh and guilt-inducing if it is not expressed in a gentle and sincere way.

[@josephl.rhodes6655]

Thank you for this show.

[@shelley6690]

Perhaps we need to revisit what ‘being born again’ means. Being enslaved to ANY passion surly belongs to our old man, regardless of what it is… we must be born again.. there seems to be an overemphasis on ‘who we are’ not who we are to become. But the greater attack of course is the authority of scripture vs culture.

[@matthewgampp1643]

Well said

[@DIBBY40]

Would you say a left-handed person is "enslaved to their passion" ? Sexuality is intrinsic to who we are in this life. It is not a mere passion that we are to repress to fit a theology. That way leads to suffering.

[@TheRealBigPlayas]

@@DIBBY40 First of all, at our core beings, we are sinners, first and foremost. Secondly, no evidence that homosexuality is genetic whatsover. But even if it was, that has no impact on whether something is sinful in God's eyes.

[@clivepattinson3911]

Yes Shelley. Understanding what it means to be a Christian is essential. Thanks for your comment

[@shelley6690]

@@DIBBY40 You make my point exactly David. We are all broken and as Romans 7 declares only the new birth can rescue us from ‘this body of sin’. It is a somewhat strange analogy to compare left handedness with moral conformity to the new man being created in the image of Christ… but I suspect you know that :). I disagree that sexuality is intrinsic to our identity. It is of course part of, but does not define the ‘new man in Christ’. Like many things, it makes a good servant, but a terrible master. Also, repression is not a concept that a born again believer nor the scriptures recognizes. Submission yes, but repression, no.. the work of the Spirit to conform us definitely involves both his power and our obedience to work together. true freedom is the power to say no, that we might say yes to Christ.

[@philoshua]

I'm a huge fan of Charlie Bell's hair. Subtly unkempt in just the right way for a distinguished person.

[@philoshua]

@@colebryson1 True! I hope Justin includes this exchange in the feedback next episode.

[@davidpayne8413]

Same as Harry Potter, we all know that Harry Potter is a work of fiction - IMO as is the bible

[@leenieledejo6849]

@@davidpayne8413 It's absurd to call it fiction. You should look at what CS Lewis (who obviously knew a lot about the history of literature being an Oxford professor!) wrote about this. The "style" of writing in the Bible simply did not exist as fiction 3,500 years ago (Old Testament) and 2,000 years ago (New Testament) and yes, there are thousands of manuscripts in existence (25,000 for the New Testament alone) which prove the dating. Furthermore, the Bible contains poems, proverbs (wisdom literaturel, letters on theology etc, not just "stories" i.e narrative! If you are afraid of, hate or simply reject God then be honest about it and don't hide behind false - and rather ignorant - accusations.

[@clivepattinson3911]

Well done Andrew Bunt on submitting yourself to the authority of the scripture and proclaiming clearly the gospel of light which so clearly cuts through all the distortions This good news of life in Christ ( not tradition or religion but Jesus of Nazareth ) goes out to all peoples and is the same today since its Author is the same yesterday today and forever. ' Come to Me 'says Jesus and ' you will find rest for your souls...' This is true spiritual life where everything is found in Christ. This is the nature of a real call of God. Always called to Jesus. We find him in the Scripture still.

[@juliefisher9754]

I found this to be an excellent discussion and model for civil discourse that I wish more Christians would adhere to in the US, my country, where culture warring is particularly toxic and damaging to Christian witness. I found Andrew's arguments more compelling. Certainly following Jesus is not easy and requires self-denial-- even beyond our sexual ethics. I am.uncomfortabke with leadership within the church that seeks to validate sexual relationships that I believe are clearly condemned in Scripture. That said, I appreciate Charlie's openness to sharing his views and his graciousness in the conversation. It got me thinking... I was reminded of a course in Christian Missions in which I earned about people in polygamous cultures who became followers of Jesus so that their newly formed faith communities had to decide what obedience would look like. How would wives and children be cared for? There seems to be a measure of acceptance in the Old Testament narratives for God's people taking on additional wives. God even demonstrates special grace and care for Hagar and Leah. Nevertheless, it is apparent that such marriage arrangements did not result in human flourishing or peaceful family life . I am sympathetic to same sex couples-- especially with children-- who after coming to faith have to evaluate what obedience to Jesus should look like. I would hope that they could find a church who could come alongside them. I do think the Church must do a better job of providing discipleship and being a place of deep relationships. Singles can often feel left out, as well as people with same set attraction or gender dysphoria. Loneliness and isolation are all to common in our society today.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Those who wore mixed fabrics will NOT enter the kingdom of heaven

[@collectibles4u]

​@@zhengfuukusheng9238 Now put that into context and let's explore the reson behind the command. The way to defeat proof text is context. Was there a specific reason why GOD gave Israel that command?

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Excuses, excuses

[@martinploughboy988]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 Yet another ignorant person who does not understand the distinction between ceremonial & moral law. You need to know what you're talking about before you debate. And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled? (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person. (Mark 7:17-23)

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@martinploughboy988 _who does not understand the distinction between ceremonial & moral law_ Point me to where it says this exact verse in the bible. Or did you copy and paste from some apologist website? ...or perhaps, did you make this up yourself ?

[@ByDesign333]

I rejoice that the Scriptures are clear on sexuality...the ONLY authority really needed.

[@JADiaz10]

Not really. Galatians tells us we are neither male or female. So this world is non-binary in reality and that verse contradicts the rest of the Bible.

[@electricspark5271]

Paul already laid this out in 1 Corinthians. ALL forms of sexual contact outside the confines of marriage between 1 man and 1 woman are sexually immoral. Heterosexual or Homosexual, doesn't matter.

[@DIBBY40]

Lot's daughters had sex with their Father, and Lot was considered righteous! Solomon had hundreds of wives and sex slaves. It is not clear at all!

[@teachpeace3750]

They are not clear at all, far from it

[@matthewgampp1643]

@@teachpeace3750 how so?

[@heikevetten8897]

GOD BLESS YOU!!!!!!!THANK YOU FOR SHARING JESUS WITH ALL!!!!!!!!🙏🏻🕊🙏🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🕊🙏🏽🙏🏽🕊🙏🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

Such bizzare reasoning from the Anglican guy, he points to all the fruit from a homosexual couple relationship as evidence for why we should allow homosexual relationships, but that is like saying, look at all the fruit that has come from being a thief, I rob banks, then give it to the poor, the needy, the widow, the church, charities...its like rigghhht, but the means that led to those fruits is sin.

[@jonathanhammond_3v16]

On point.

[@DIBBY40]

But robbing a bank is not a loving thing to do. Having a relationship is.

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

@@DIBBY40 Sins are sins regardless on if they are loving or not, we seem to equate sin these days with things that only harm other people, but there are other sins that are not harmful to other people, they may just be abominations to the Holiness of God, or self-harming/negative activities that the Bible has said are sinful. If homosexuality is a sin, as the Bible states, then it does not matter if those practicing in the relationship are loving to each other, the fruit does not matter, the means are sinful.

[@DIBBY40]

@@YuGiOhDuelChannel You are completely free not to have a homosexual relationship if you regard it as a sin.

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

@David Dibben ?? Ok? Sin isn't determined on if I believe it is a sin or not, either Bible says something is a sin or it doesn't

[@DIBBY40]

I left evangelical Christianity. I'm now in a happy Civil Partnership. Years of anti gay teaching was the cause of much suffering in the church and when I left . I enjoy these videos though. Justin is very fair to his guests. 💖

[@amylovesTheGoodShepherd]

God bless you, Charlie Bell. Andrew seems lovely and respectful, just an unfortunate theology (imo). wonderful chat

[@markgarcia9070]

The scariest type of wolf in sheep's clothing is the one that truly believes they're a sheep.

[@DIBBY40]

And the true believers are really convinced they're sheep!

[@petezharhoel]

That one guy makes it seem like to him that celebacy is a worse punishment than hell

[@barbaramerrihew8662]

Greetings from Omaha, Nebraska

[@vlogsniprof6776]

Greetings from Philippines. 🙋

[@karl5395]

For Christians you have to choose to follow the word of your culture or the Word of God

[@teachpeace3750]

Oh shush

[@electricspark5271]

Truth

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

The bible says to kill gays, witches non-believers and believers of other religions. It also says to stone unruly children to death (yes, Jeesus himself says this) Trying to live according to the book will make you a terrorist, and get you locked up or shot by the police Do yuh feel lucky, punk?

[@khar12d8]

Jesus told a rich young man to give away all his stuff. Do you plan on doing that? Is consumer capitalism not an unchristian part of our culture that a truly follower of God would reject?

[@Daz19]

"...the image of God" - This should be its own topic. In reference to scripture one can certainly paint many different images of God, from the very cruel to the very loving and all in between. An image that has changed dramatically over the centuries. So how can one decern this image, how can consensus be found, can it be found?

[@auroraecho9128]

Is this just an issue of personal vs corporeal conviction at the end of the day? Like one person struggling with faith and gender dysphoria receiving conviction not to have surgery trying to then, maybe because it feels so severe, say that this personal conviction can automatically apply to all other trans people and their experiences. Christ shepherds us all personally and corporeally, but it always seems the aim is love and radical acceptance of all that promotes love and life and the ultimate truth of God's love for everyone as they are. I feel like we should stick to virtue and vice a bit here. The lust is objectification and ownership tied with envy and often deceit and vanity that goes along i.e. porn addiction, infidelity, promiscuity, sexual misconduct. These are not loving and creative and fruitful. Two people committed to becoming the image of Christ and bearing that for each other, their children, community and church not being blessed by that community and church makes no sense to me, regardless of anatomy. I wish you would have touched on the very next part of the scripture you initially discussed in Matthew on divorce where the disciples react and Jesus talks about the tough teachings of self eunuchs for the kingdom. I was imagining this would be Andrew's exclusive scripture in a way, especially since the early church applied it to the priesthood, but no mention! Great conversation and it's such an important topic. One of much suffering for myself. God give us peace.

[@BGLEE001]

I believe this a corporeal conviction. Though we should have respect and love for each other regardless of our views, our opinions as believers must be submitted to scripture. Marriage is a physical image of the spiritual relationship between Christ and His bride, the church. If our views on marriage does not reflect what is emphasized in scripture then we're missing the mark

[@robertlangford5732]

Don't stop there...what about the strange words of Jesus a bit further on when He talks about the Eunuch.. Some volunteer to be Eunuchs....some are forced...and some are Born Eunuchs?????

[@electricspark5271]

Paul already laid this out in 1 Corinthians. ALL forms of sexual contact outside the confines of marriage between 1 man and 1 woman are sexually immoral. Heterosexual or Homosexual, doesn't matter.

[@JADiaz10]

Paul is not God. He even admits he could be wrong on some issues. Especially when Galatians tells us we’re neither male or female. This world is non-binary and that verse in Galatians contradicts the rest of scripture

[@electricspark5271]

@@JADiaz10 Paul's words are God's words! *"All Scripture is breathed out by God* and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16 ESV

[@DIBBY40]

@@electricspark5271 Which scriptures? There was no New Testament when Timothy was written

[@electricspark5271]

@@DIBBY40 LOL are you seriously trying to justify sexual immorality with that logic?

[@DIBBY40]

@@electricspark5271 Well if it's the old testament it is full of multiple marriages, sex slaves (Solomon anyone?) Moses allows his army to keep the conquered virgin girls as sex slaves, after butchering their parents. But a gay couple wanting to commit to each other in relationship? Suddenly, that's not moral!

[@jenisebrooks4308]

What happened to just wanting to share ones live with another. People make it all about sex.

[@johnarulmohan566]

Greetings from New Jersey

[@johnsteele870]

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner-not even to eat with such a person. If some one is a homosexual and claims to be a christian scripture is clear how to deal with them. Premier apostate radio

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

A book says a thing

[@johnsteele870]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 so does the conscience

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@johnsteele870 Does you conscience say not to wear mixed fabrics?

[@johnsteele870]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 no

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@johnsteele870 Exactly, but the bible does. If you're going to put your "faith" in a book, you'd better take steps to verify its really true. Esp when there's so much at stake

[@IamGrimalkin]

It's good to see the 'affirming' priest they brought on wasn't an outright heretic this time. Although I disagree with him, Charlie Bell is much better than Brandan Robertson.

[@adamstamper1097]

Just a question I have, does Charlie believe we should be able to marry Gay or Lesbian couples in the name of God? Seemed a little unclear to me and was wondering if anyone could provide that insight. Thank You.

[@janjandance3696]

Vey good

[@James-qz6vi]

This is crazy talk. God is clear about homosexuality, but feel free to start your own cult.

[@DIBBY40]

I left the evangelical cult.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

A book says a god says some stuff

[@magikarpolycarp]

The Bible never addresses homosexuality. The word didn’t exist until the 19th century and neither did the concept of sexual orientation. Whatever Paul is talking about, it can’t be the modern concept of homosexual orientation clearly observed in psychology today. The word didn’t even occur in an English Bible until 1946. Homosexual sex was considered excess in the way that gluttony was. A normal amount of food is normal, too much is bad. Normal sex was hetero, but one who indulged in sex with men and women was like someone who ate too much. Also pederasty was very common in antiquity, which was affluent men owning sex slaves, including same sex slaves. It was never about loving and consenting adults and it was never about orientation. It was about power and control. Some things to consider when Paul is mentioning “homosexuality” in our mistranslated Bibles.

[@James-qz6vi]

@@magikarpolycarp How about the Old Testament written by Moses given to him by God. Leviticus 18:22 22 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. If you cannot understand this, then it’s best you not question God. If you do not believe the Bible is the Living Word of God, you cannot be a Christian. I hope you seek God’s wisdom so you will know the truth.

[@DIBBY40]

@@magikarpolycarp Great points. But it is probably wasted on fundamentalists who don't do nuance. The Bible has become such an idol that everything is sacrificed before it, including knowledge and wisdom.

[@gustavorvalderrama625]

From Tijuana México

[@jj4cpw]

As a gay man I was always for equal LEGAL rights for gay unions but never felt the need to call that union “marriage” (calling it “bingo” would have been fine by me). Nor, especially, did I feel the need to browbeat any religion into blessing those unions. Course, though I believe there’s wisdom to be gleaned from religions, mostly I think them unhelpful in modern times.

[@jenisebrooks4308]

I agree...legal for the financial..medical reasons

[@Bornstella]

The easiest, simplest way to point out the problem with the pro-gay christian perspective, is to ask the old presup question, By what standard? Their arguments always fall back on an observation of what they deem good, godly and loving, ultimately, rather than submitting to a holier standard.

[@khar12d8]

I understand and respect celibacy. But celibacy is just one part of rejecting culture and living closer to God. We know Jesus was not a big fan of people storing up wealth. So giving up material luxuries, living a more monastic life would be another way of being closer to God. Yes, lots of Christians fail in living so close to God. But that's okay that's why we have the saving grace of Jesus. Being celibate is wonderful if it makes you happy. But if being celibate makes you miserable why would a loving God want that? I think God wants us to have loving, committed relationships because that's good for us. Gay or straight. But if being celibate makes you happy too, as it does for some. God wants that too.

[@matthewgampp1643]

How does the clergyman get around Jesus' words of in the beginning he made them male and female and they will leave father and mother to become one flesh? It seems like progressive Christianity can't agree with this and by this departs from the faith. "If you love me (Jesus) you will do what I command."

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Good Q. Probably he's struggling to reconcile the preachments of 2-3000 year old books versus what reality tells us

[@IamGrimalkin]

Why not watch the video to find out? They discuss this passage.

[@leenieledejo6849]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 So I assume you tell the academic world to throw out Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Homer etc because they're "old" and "don't depict reality"?? 🤦🏻‍♀️ The heart never changes. The Bible deals with the heart.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@leenieledejo6849 The heart merely pumps blood. I've never heard so much garbage condensed into a such a short statement

[@leenieledejo6849]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 In the ancient Hebrew world (and other ancient cultures), the heart was regarded as the seat of thought (and feeling: both of which lead to actions) so Jesus's words made sense to his listeners and so did the reference to "heart" in the rest of the Bible. Today in the English-speaking world, we say "the mind" or, idiomatically, "the gut" eg "I felt in my gut..." or "my gut told me...". [Interestingly, there is an established link between digestion or gut health and mental health and well-being]. Please educate yourself because life and history did not begin in the West in 2022.

[@trisheds45]

Such a good discussion. Leviticus <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1102">18:22</a>???

[@bobpierce57]

Readings from Taiwan

[@teachpeace3750]

When I listen to these conversations I feel like I’m seeing a slave argue for slavery or a woman argue for patriarchy. It’s just sad that a person believes they don’t have the right to love who they want to love because of a few Bible verses that don’t carry much weight today once you their original cultural context.

[@BenSmith-lv2yl]

That's an interesting comment. Firstly, the Bible explicitly and consistently portrays the correct way of living as sacrificing what we want in this life, and submitting it to the will of the Lord. In the old and new testaments. This isn't easy and is unnatural to our sinful selves. But it comes down to a number of things. Is the Bible the Truth and the Word of God? Does God want the best for us? Are some of our deep desires potentially a result of our sinful state? And are we willing to give up everything (or strive to) for Jesus and righteousness?

[@teachpeace3750]

@@BenSmith-lv2yl I don’t believe the Bible condemns same sex relationships as we understand them today. I have the exegetical and hermeneutical receipts to be able to hold my own against any conservative view :)

[@BenSmith-lv2yl]

@@teachpeace3750 Please outline them, I'm not questioning your intelligence or integrity, but I want to understand your position, discussion is helpful for both sides

[@teachpeace3750]

@@BenSmith-lv2yl not really possible over a KZbin comment section. I could recommend resources which articulate the case for affirmation, but in no way do I have the time to type it out on my phone during a work day.

[@Jointknight]

The alternative is much worse though and a lot fronts.

[@iainrae6159]

If Gods word is so clear in the Bible as to his wishes, then why are there hundreds of different religious churches and beliefs? Society generally agrees slavery for example is an immoral act, however the Bible would suggest otherwise.

[@bigfootapologetics]

There are hundreds of different churches and beliefs because in the 16th century, the idea that we can make new churches when we disagree with the ones that came before was acted on by Martin Luther. But as Luther would’ve acknowledged, if you’ll look prior to that, you’ll see that there was really only one version of Christianity. The principal change was Luther’s belief that our only authority is scripture, which just doesn’t work in practice - as you smartly point out, two different people can look at verses on things like slavery and arrive at wildly different conclusions. That’s why another authority is necessary - a single Church, under which there is a “final say” guided by the Holy Spirit.

[@iainrae6159]

@@bigfootapologetics Thankyou for your comment. Why bother with churches at all and rely on priests as the 'middle men?

[@bigfootapologetics]

That’s a great question! There’s countless ways to show why we should have churches and priests, given the promises of the Old Testament, the direct recordings about both of them in the New Testament, and the writings of the early Church Fathers who ultimately brought us the Bible. But the simplest and easiest answer is that the first Christians-who either knew Jesus directly or knew/were taught by His disciples-had churches and priests with specific functions. Those Christians knew better than anyone what Jesus’s intentions for His Church would be going forward. Heck, just look at what St. Ignatius wrote less than 50 years after the Book of Revelation: “In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church.” From this, we confirm that not only did the first Christians continue to have churches after Acts, but that they were only considered true churches if they had bishops, priests, and deacons.

[@iainrae6159]

@@bigfootapologetics Thankyou, much appreciate your thoughtful comment

[@bigfootapologetics]

@@iainrae6159 Appreciate you being awesome! May God bless you every day of your life!

[@esava44]

The idea that we should look at scripture through the lens of the world is a bit self-contradictory. Scripture tells us the story of what the world was designed to be and the history of getting back to that original design. The world of Paul, especially in Ephesus and Corinth is not much different from our world today. Just because something happened 2000 years ago does not mean the world has truly progressed beyond that time and place. It's a bit arrogant of us to assume that people back then just didn't understand what we understand now about...in this case...human sexuality.

[@peterk.6930]

IDENTITEIT meest overschatte begrip tegenwoordig Nederland dus IDENTITY most overestimated term nowadays

[@stormchaserkj]

The priest lies. God commands to be fruitful and multiply. Abandoning God's design is a counterfeit from Satan.

[@kwall1464]

From Kingston, New York in the US😊

[@jenisebrooks4308]

Naomi and ruth cleaved i assume not sexual.

[@stevecollette6831]

Wow....I feel so sad for Andrew. He has managed to convince himself that the god that loves him, created him to be alone and not in a loving relationship -- essentially created to be sad. He's thought through what he thinks the Bible says, but somehow manages to completely exclude the reasonable conclusion that his god isn't real. He's open to believe what he wants, but I feel nothing but sadness for him. (And yes, I know that many may find that condescending)

[@BGLEE001]

Well I don't believe his Hid is excluding him from a living relationship. He has found intimacy with friends and family, which I'm sure are loving relationships. That implies that anyone that is single do not experience loving relationships if their not in a rinsing relationship, which I believe is a lie that American culture has taught people. If his God is not real than who is the real god where we get our understand and source of what love is?

[@stevecollette6831]

@@BGLEE001 "Intimacy with friends and family" LOLOLOL Makes for a weird World Cup party!

[@BGLEE001]

@@stevecollette6831 you don't have to have sex with someone to be intimate with them lol. Intimacy is to be close and known by someone either physically or emotionally. Do you have relationships in your life that's intimate in a non-physical way?

[@martinploughboy988]

You might, with benefit, read 1 Corinthians 7.

[@John117_C27]

“9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

before you decided to believe the bible, what steps did you take to confirm it's veracity ???

[@John117_C27]

18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 ¶ Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 ¶ For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 ¶ And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,fn wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1

[@John117_C27]

God has made it clear in the Holy Bible that He is, and was and always will be. Jesus says “I am the way the truth and the life, no one can come to the father except through me.” Repent and believe in Jesus Christ

[@John117_C27]

Please consider what God is saying to all people. @@zhengfuukusheng9238

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@John117_C27 Basically you did NO research and did NOT veracity the veracity of the bible. For shame

[@merrybolton2135]

As all religions they are a iron age way of thinking . What one human does to another with their free consent is no place of the state or the dogma of the church ,or anyone else for that matter .

[@electricspark5271]

You do realize children cannot consent to pedophiles. They literally do not possess the mental faculties to consent. Your logic condones child abuse.

[@davidpayne8413]

Acting on homosexual desire or not acting - your god knows what you are thinking, feeling. Looking at another with lust - 'You shall not commit adultery;' Matt <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="328">5:28</a> but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a. woman to lust after her has committed. adultery with her already in his heart. - does this not apply to homosexual lust/desire? - God the ultimate thought policeman

[@jenisebrooks4308]

Having attraction does not mean one lust after every person which is true with heterosexuals. Men generally attracted to women don't lustfully look at all women.

[@jenna2431]

Jung identified the anima and the animus. If we don't acknowledge that we have sensitivities toward the opposite sex, and that the expression of our sex/gender is a broad spectrum, then you get situations in which parents and others attempt to crush a child for those. And where does that come from? Straight from a rigid backward Christianity. Add to that the political concept neither the state NOR the church has any business in regulating or issuing permits for marriage.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

There needs to be laws to stop under age girls (or boys for that matter) from being married off

[@JK-uo3pd]

Jung was an occultist His views relative to the Bible are irrelevant

[@martinploughboy988]

Jung, like all his fellows, was a fraud.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

....and Jeesus, the biggest fraud of all

[@stormchaserkj]

Matt 7: 22 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Andrew is right and Charlie is WRONG. Christ clearly explained sexual sins and the importance. This is not a gay straight issue. I pray that Andrew falls in love with a Tom boy kinda girl. The transformation of your mind continues as you obey.

[@davidpayne8413]

The core problem is that the Bible (and other sacred text) is a fixed work, especially since the invention of the printing press. Christians can be really nice people, and as a society we have moves on since the enlightenment. But the bible say's homosexuality is wrong - Some fundamental bible believing Christians refuse to believe that homosexuality is natural and is observed in nature, and therefore cannot accept homosexuality. The reality is that the bible is the late written version of earlier oral history/tradition - The truth is the text reflects the culture and beliefs of the writers, the oral tradition/history of a very scientific ignorant and misogynistic culture. Unless the bible can be re written then I can't see how this can be resolved. BTW I am an Antitheist, who grew up in a Christian family we attended the Salvation Army

[@martinploughboy988]

The thing that is missed is the idea that there is a LGBT nature. They are not natures but chosen behaviours & calling yourself such is to identify with sin. For a Christian it is sin to call oneself gay, it is like calling oneself a thief, gossip or murderer. Sadly there was no attempt to address this, the real problem. All three were taken in by the modern paradigm of sexuality.

[@leenieledejo6849]

Exactly. People (even those in churches) actually follow the theories of Karl Maria Kertbeny (look him up on Wikipedia) atheist and God rejecter (who invented the notion of "homosexuality", "heterosexuality" and even "sexuality") rather than the words of God. Sodomy is an act in the Bible and never a noun (and most certainly NEVER an identity). You're spot-on. How we approach it is important.

[@stormchaserkj]

Christian yells, "Wake up! You have fallen asleep on a train track!" LGBTQ+ community, "Stop hating, I will be what I want.

[@cipherklosenuf9242]

Christians don’t want to talk to the deconstructed. Why? One would think they would want to practice engaging with a “Lost Soul” to develop understanding of loved ones in real life. It much easier to engage here. I post things and get crickets 🦗🦗. What’s up Doc?🥕

[@littleboots9800]

Well I understand why my loved ones who don't believe are non believers mostly because Ive talked to them. It's usually the same few reasons that crop up, whether they were never believers or ex believers. The only difference is ex believers often add on bad church experiences as a reason despite that having little to do with the truth claim of the existence of God. Besides, they are often wary of the motives of ppl like yourself. I mean, what is your motive for example? I doubt it's to help Christians reach out to prodigals and get them back in the fold, lol.

[@collectibles4u]

Actually I would love too. If it's a loving non argumentive diolauge. I will not ingaue in addhonium argumentation or bashing of either side. Other than that I would love to hear your story although I don't promise to have answers, but I guineauly like to listen to your experience.

[@cipherklosenuf9242]

@@collectibles4u Hi Collectibles. I’m not looking for answers beyond dialogue in an attempt to understand ourselves. That is, I’m not wondering how to be saved or something like that. I find these conversations very helpful and I hope you do as well. Thanks for the kind (and rare) invitation. I was raised in a conservative Protestant tradition and have many fond memories of Church life. I participated fully and sincerely and remained a devout theist well into my adult years. Believing that the Bible was true, I believed that it could stand up to whatever criticism the world may throw at it. I find it stands only as literature (not as history per se or science at all). People write books. I view the Bible as a collection of ancient texts. It took me a long time to arrive there, through study, prayer and life experiences. I’ve come to recognize the harm done, and the potential harm of, supernatural belief systems, In ways and with an urgency I turned from as a theist. It troubles me because I’m from that world view and I know and love many Christians. I like engaging in conversation that challenges the worst of supernatural belief systems, And explores the best of what a living faith may offer. What is your experience? Do you believe God is a supernatural being? Do you believe your self consciousness is eternal? How have you experienced a living faith? Have you wrestled through the long night…have you limped away with a new name and a blessing? What’s your story? I’ll listen.

[@collectibles4u]

@@cipherklosenuf9242 First I really value this and honestly I understand where you're coming from. To begin I was brought up in a IFB church my grandmother used to take me as a child. I proffesed Christ at a early age although didn't understand what that meant. But I really wanted to understand the whole of salvation. Unfortunately the harder I tried to understand and the more questions I asked were met with the same opposition, it was always read your Bible. Problem was I was doing exactly that, I soon realized the reason I wasn't getting answers is because they wasn't known. Everyone around me knew just as much as I did this is about 10yro. From there I just came to see, however I believe now I was wrong that there wasn't a GOD because I couldn't even get simple answers I watched week in and week out my family go to church with 0 evidence through the week Thierry were anything other than us. They were never a Bible open never a prayer said. I pretty well held this view most my adult life. I tried the going to church and being a better person, which as you could probably guess was a horrible failure. Over a year and a half ago something happened my life was at a point of ending at least that's what I felt. I was loosing my wife of 15 yrs. , my kids, my job, everything so I made a irrational decision, suicide. Regardless to say I was unsuccessful. I want to be careful about how much I divulge on here but 2 malfunctions and not a scratch. Really I can't say the thought patterns. I think at that moment I really started searching for truth. Needless to say since that night I've studied everything I can get my hands-on, Christian, Athiestism, Naturalistic, Theological, Philosophy, and through all my studies led me to theism. Over and over again I found answers I had searched for year's ago. Here's where I agree completely horrible horrible atrocities have been done in the name of religion, but flipside same can be said about thing's done without a thought og GOD at all. My strongest evidence for me is the things science can't answer, morality, reason, mind. Although I know it may not hold weight to anyone other than me experience. Now my belief is I'm spiritual and eternal in the since I have a spirit that will after this present life is done we exist somewhere. I know most, unless you know me B.C. could never see what has changed, but my life is different. No longer do I try to be good as a merit for earning anything. I don't trust in what I can do but what Christ has done- out of love. I can say I love to exchange ideas, I've never walked away from a thoughtful conversation empty as I hope you feel the same.

[@cipherklosenuf9242]

@@collectibles4u Thanks for sharing your story. One hopes you have people in your real life to share that with as well, but sometimes it’s really useful to engage in this format. I can think and re-examine my thoughts and sometimes get a reaction from someone else. You offer a life of asking and seeking. A story of disappointment and redemption rooted in your experiences. Could I challenge your conclusions…yes, as you well know…but life offers the real challenges, as you know better than I. Life it seems struggles to be. I find it remarkable that most Christians seem fixed on being “right” even at the expense of just letting faith be faith. It seems you have tasted the living waters, and find it quenches your soul. There’s a personal, subjective, existential lived experience of just being a person. Here one encounters the Art of Living and here it seems you have found faith. I contrast this with the science of life, and argue science can take care of itself, it doesn’t ask for belief…living often does. We don’t know a lot, yet here we are living, so what shall we do now? Confidence …has faith as a root word …confidence means with faith. Finding faith…you found confidence in something. It bothers me very much when religious organizations take advantage of people. I hope you have managed to land among many encouraging people, including those with whom you share a faith tradition, and others too. Do you find yourself in a different version of Christianity now or the same one in which you were brought up? What questions are you exploring now?

[@davidpayne8413]

I fail to see why being gay is an issue - Homosexuality is perfectly natural - Or do you think that post the fall when sin entered the world that it didn't include the lower animals, because FACT, homosexuality is observed in other animals not just man

[@kenaknai6899]

Animals do not live to any level of morality. Magpies naturally steal nests and turn out the young chicks or eggs- would you accept that behaviour in humans? The fact it happens "in nature" does not make it morally acceptable human behaviour.

[@TheRealBigPlayas]

That's false. But even if it was...rape is common in animals? How does that justify anything?

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

It shows homosexuality and rape are common in nature, this has nothing to do with justification Almost any idiot can write a book saying a god decreed some stuff, that X is right but Y is wrong. Dunt make it so

[@TheRealBigPlayas]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 first point is true. The second shows you know nothing about the bible

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@TheRealBigPlayas Really? And do you? Let's start with something simple. Who wrote the bible? All the books of it

[@annawray2220]

If the value of relationships are to be based on fruits then it calls into question the unmarried heterosexual couples who’s relationships bear fruit, plus the temporary but sexual relationships that bear fruits whilst they are good and whilst they last. Based on this logic the entire theology for marriage could be optional

[@JK-uo3pd]

Your opinion Not scripture

[@annawray2220]

@@JK-uo3pd I am saying this is a negative thing! If we don't stick to scripture then it calls into question many other things to be deconstructed

[@aosidh]

Is there a chance that young Andrew is nervous about romantic relationships and is trying to frame that fear as virtue?

[@akindelebankole8080]

All the controversies around sexuality and gender is literarily causing distractions for believers on their individual spiritual journeys. Their hearts and minds have become wicked, unloving and ungodly, in their involvement in the affairs of others such as the LGBTQ communities. The less compassionate believers are towards people who are different, the more they sew seeds of doubt in other believers and would be believers. The creation of both men and women should already give a clue to believers that the God images in human beings are individual aspects of God, authentically manifested in each person. The writers of the Bible were wrong in their inabilities to truly analyze the world around them. They were blinded by the debauchery and decadence around them and wrongly codified evil against people with genuine love for one another. Unfortunately, many more evils were further codified against so many groups such that believers are admonished to do evil on so many levels, it is insane. This problem of Christian admonishments of evil against others was contained within the Roman empire (essentially Europe) for centuries, until conquering greedy desires pushed them to colonize and impose the Christian ideology on the rest of the world. And as is also adopted by their sister religion Islam, Christianity has spread hate of the other to world, even where those hates did not exist before. Now we have all inherited the hateful codified evil doctrines of Euro-Christian culture and Arab-Muslim culture which are causing not just unavoidable separations and suffering between peoples, but also separation within people groups, down to the families. These horrible codified texts are the reasons why secularism (in the form of science and justified knowledge) will be the only antidote to the dogmatic mob mentality of believers. Due to the wicked pronouncements and the mandated adherence of believers to the evil commands, skepticism, critical thinking and fact-based secular systems will eventually take over as the better foundational community building method. In modern times, when there is more real time communication within the whole world, bad ideas will ultimately die once unscrupulous apologetics have exhausted their efforts to deceive the masses. Only a matter of time.

[@rickm.rogersphd9673]

Andrew: What is "relationship," "sex," "the line"? What is acceptable to Jesus and what is not? What practices are "sex" or even gay sex? Is "looking," "feeling," and "thinking," sex or relationship? Is kissing permissible? Andrew's views and biblical language as he interprets it are much too ambiguous to have much meaning. I take Charlie's views to be "live" with the of scriptural ambiguity, but abide with the scriptural sentiments.

[@herambaanjaneya2177]

Who is to say that living out your life as a child of God doesn't include the fullness of a same-sex relationship? So sorry but Andrew Bunt's statement makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever! I sincerely and seriously think that part of the problem under discussion is the elevation of chastity/celibacy as being some kind of moral virtue. Andrew is incredibly young I am seriously concerned that in years to come perhaps when he is 40, 50 or 60+ that he ends up in a very, very dark lonely place without the comfort and experience of a loving spouse/husband to warm his heart and give him that love and strength to which all happy and loving couples will readily attest. It's really impossible to read or make sense of huge tracts of the bible without very extensive exegesis. What's also missing from this discussion is the scholarship of Jennifer Bird phd who makes a very convincing case that Jesus was actually Gay Himself and had a relationship that shows this. I don't think that Jennifer is actually in any way unique in that view. It doesn't require much imagination to hear the screams and gnashing of teeth of a great many Christians "losing their sh*t" as they are wont to do over homosexuality as I type this but that isn't what matters. Ultimately I think that it is extremely dangerous for anyone to claim to know the mind of God. That doesn't seem to me to be a position of humility but rather one of covert grandiose narcissism and is fraught with truly terrifying levels of moral hazard. No, I feel a more sane and grounded approach is to spiritually grow and develop our individual consciences and to be guided by that in our lives. If Christians battle this out within their faith tradition and finally decide to split apart I would see that as a good rather than a bad thing. No clerics should be compelled to marry same sex couples but if a churches split on this issue then one of the side benefits of that might be an increase in places of worship where same sex couples can actually marry given the shamefully and pitifully dearth of places of worship where such couples can have a religious and spiritual ceremony.

[@murdurmuffin7872]

Since it would be an utter waste of time to convince you, this will be brief. The simple answer to your first question: "The Lord" your creator, is the one to say... Lev 18:22 > You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. *oh, please do read the verses between, before, and after for context* Lev 18:29 > For everyone who does any of these abominations, the persons who do them shall be cut off from among their people. Lev 18:30 > So keep my charge never to practice any of these abominable customs that were practiced before you, and never to make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.” There is no translation, wordplay, version, ANYTHING that will change the crystal clear meaning of these words. It's not just wrong, it is "abominable" level wrong.

[@NC-vz6ui]

This is hilarious. Where in Genesis are Adam and Eve married? The scripture says therefore (this is the reason why we have relationships)...and the word translated as wife is issha which means woman because the context doesn't call for it to be translated ias wife. Fundamentalist Christians are so hilarious because they are inconsistent and pick and choose what they are going to follow. Are we all required to be vegans? Jesus is working within the culture that he finds himself. Also, no one ever brings up Matthew where he says that this doesn't apply to everyone for their are born Eunuchs. Paul is speaking about idolotry and pagan temple worship. Also, no one talks about cultural prejudice and personal disgust read into scripture. Andrew has been indoctrinated to believe he is less then and must suppress his sexuality in suffering for Christ. This is vain suffering and false ascetism when God has created you the way you are. Straight desires are not held to the same standard as what gay desires are. How is this fair and equal? I'm about sick of straight people comparing homosexual desires as the same as heterosexual desires for adultery. The difference is a heterosexual man can have a relationship and committing adultery is extra. Conservatives want to talk a lot about identity except when it comes to straight identity. If your sexuality is a not a huge part of your identity then renounce your heterosexuality and remain celibate. Why is no consideration given to the fact that this society who thought women were slaves and slavery was acceptable would use a metaphor of woman submitting to men as a metaphor for Christ and the church?

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Pretty obvious the bible is entirely man-made, using the norms and social mores known at the time in a specific part of the Near East

[@coloradodutch7480]

They shall become one flesh. We do this all the time, we give a word to describe something so we don't have to explain or repeat a longer description. It is why language expands. It is like saying the first computer was not called a computer therefore it wasn't a computer. No we are not required to be vegans, the bible addresses that in the OT and NT. Why would you bring up eunuchs in relationship to marriage? It doesn't apply. There are plenty of straight people that renounce heterosexuality and remain celibate. Submission is not slavery. Culture being wrong does not change the the word of God, he still held his people responsible.

[@NC-vz6ui]

I don't really understand what you are saying in the first part. The point I'm making is how absurd the literalist interpretation of Genesis as prescriptive vs. descriptive is and what the ramifications would be. Jesus addresses Eunuchs in Matthew when discussing divorce and remarriage. The Vast majority of straight people do not remain celibate and they have the option to not too. Even when they do, they are not renouncing heterosexuality. I agree culture being wrong does not change the word of God and he does hold his people responsible. This why I find it appalling what the church has done to join with the culture in discrimination and hurting people.

[@coloradodutch7480]

@@NC-vz6ui The bible says that 'they shall become one flesh', this means marriage.

[@NC-vz6ui]

@@coloradodutch7480 sorry colorado, but one flesh does not mean marriage.

[@followerofchrist198]

What an unbalanced discussion. There is no one who identifies with Christ alone rather than their sin nature

[@Jointknight]

I'm sorry, but I listened to 45 minutes of this and the theological gymnastics you have to go through to make a square peg fit into what is clearly a round hole is quite humorous honestly. Andrew Bunt is wrong and Charlie Bell is doubly wrong. There are really only 2 views, 1 is that the Bible is wrong on some issues, Paul in particular (but also levitical scripture) got it wrong with lot of other things and it needs to either be course corrected and/or re-written, similarly just take the Bible more metaphorically, or 2 You're both dead wrong and really living in the land of denial. And I can read it plain as day on Charlie's face that he wants to convince himself beyond reason that his contradiction isn't hogwash, which it most certainly is. The primary issue here is though, the devil in the details, both of you are completely convinced that 'gay' is both confirmed by science and personal experience. And again, you're both wrong on both issues. The science has clearly demonstrated that 'gay' predilaection is only partially biological (somewhere between 35-50%), the rest is heredity that you largely don't have control over in your youth. This is both confirmed by the twin studies and gene studies (and really inferred by other biological factors which have nothing to do with 'gayness' eg. height). Second 'ideation' is separate from puberty initially, it becomes an issue when you've been 'convinced' it's consciously/unconsciously advantageous, dopamine hits and is soon after conflated with what you find pleasurable. The problem that the Bible has is that while gay is not absolutely 'inborn,' it's clearly a challenge during early childhood that if left unchecked has insanely difficult to overcome once set in. The reason this is a problem for Chistians is because the Bible is discussing this issue as a a mature audience, a manifestation of behavior of a responsible assumedly adult or 'present-minded' teen. It really doesn't address this a childhood problem, which is distinctly is, and the time frame where this needs to be nipped in the bud. Arguably most severe manifestations of behavior, in particular, do between ages 0-5, and most parents have difficulty managing a checking account let alone all the intricacies of personality disorder possibilities. And look I'm not saying children should be blamed for what is most often an issue of neglect, abuse, severe ignorance, etc. but it doesn't fly as a follower of Christ at all. It's one thing to be going through a period of repentance, it's quite another and particularly bold I might add to claim they can somehow coincide. It's also one thing to be struggling with temptation on a regular basis or go through period of doubt or greta struggle. It's quite another to suggest someone can be a part of the pastorate when even just having a divorce is forboden. Oil and water, entirely. Likewise this also assumes the framework of the "well, I was born that way, therefore I don't have to take responsibility for everything in my life." And look as someone with severe disabilities like asperger's and adhd, I get it, life is ANYTHING but fair, and when you try to contrast this with why I was made that way, that's a tough one, I don't have the answer for anymore than why do people suffer. But there's really a bigger problem here that both of you are overlooking as well as far as I can tell, and while I want you to understand I'm not saying this to 'lump you in' because yes there are levels of severity in depravity, it's also a very fair argument. By choosing to defend this scientific caveat you are also defending pedofilia and sadism against women, as well as bigamy and masochism. It's not a conversation just about you, and while you're trying to defend your lived experience you are gating in all these much worse things. But it doesn't even stop there, because we can extrapolate this out to rape, torture, suicide, murder etc etc. and while you might think , may it never be .. well all these things can be justified by both biological disposition and heredity. The reality is we can't all live in this 'Billy Joel American Good Times Dream', life is struggle it's interspersed with dentist trips, car crashes and cancer diagnosis in western Christiandom. And Christians are not the only ones to go no this doesn't work at all. The longest lived people on the planet are in the Japanese archipeligo, and they have an even bigger disdain for homosexuality than we do because they didn't adopt post modernism so quickly. which is essentially the feminisation of ideology. All the traditional bronze age religions are masculine. Eve from Adam's rib anyone? And finally, it's the arguments, not because of whether 'gay' is or isn't acceptable, but because exactly what Andrew bunt points out. Marriage itself is a tradition honoring the life giving relationship between a man and a woman. Quiver of arrows? Woman made for man? Men and women different sizes and roles? No place in the Bible where men are told to 'beware the wiles' of other men? And several other passages alluding , hinting, correlating, inferring etc, is all pointing one direction, for which there isn't a strong counter argument. The fact that homosexuality is literally demonized as an abomination is almost regardless, it's just a further demonstration that the behavior of sinners very often chooses that avenue.

[@cipherklosenuf9242]

Hi Joint..curious name? It seems clear to me that the authors of the Bible clearly believed that homosexuality was sinful and that stoning people to death was justice (Old Testament). And Threatening people with eternal torture for misbelief in supernatural authority, as revealed through paranormal authorship of “sacred” texts was defending the faith. These beliefs persist among many Christians because of content found in the Bible and persisting belief in a paranormal authorship of Biblical texts. So, I agree with you about the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality. Personally, I would like to see “marriage” relegated to a theological term as is baptism or communion. I would like to see “marriage” replaced by “Domestic Partnership “with regard to civil laws. This change would acknowledge traditional beliefs while preserving the civic functions of partnership. Marriage is sacred….Domestic Partnership is secular. … Does that seem fair? Regarding “scientific caveats” …to defend harmful behavior… I agree very much with defending people from harm, including harm people may cause to themselves or harm imposed on individuals within sectarian communities (For example, female circumcision or Clergy committing sexual assault). This gets tricky when it intersects with human rights, civil liberties and privacy. Freedom doesn’t just mean “I do what I want” … It means “I am responsible for my choices”. For example: Two Clergymen are free to share in sexual passion. That’s Civil Liberty and Human Right. If that decision results in excommunication and subsequent job loss…that is a consequence of their choices, of which they were very aware. But, If they are publicly stoned to death …they are victims of crime and the perpetrators need to be arrested…”the Bible says…” is an inadequate legal defense under civil law. Laws against pedophilia, sadism, masochism, rape, torture, and murder are not designed to prevent consenting adults from engaging in mutual sexual passion. They are designed to prevent a clergyman (or any perpetrator) from harming others…especially the most vulnerable, such children. Suicide laws are designed for civil authorities to have the right to intervene and prevent a troubled person (like a victim of clergy sexual assault for example) from harming themselves. Bigamy is interesting…and why I think Marriage should be sectarian but not Secular. Consenting adults living as 1 man with 3 women is protected as a civil liberty. Sharing property and child care is their personal freedom and responsibility. If one woman wants to leave that arrangement…we have compounded complications. I think civil laws continuing to recognize only one partnership offers the best option to protect the vulnerable while preserving freedom. Secular authority protects human rights by the consent of the governed…and not by the word of God, Allah or any other mythological being.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Maybe we should treat the bible for what it is: tall-tales written by our primitive, superstitious ancestors

[@Jointknight]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 We could, but we would have a far rougher time of it. No religion isn't going anywhere anyways, even in a vacuum people would create religions. There really isn't a better option than Christianity, while shintoism coupled with Buddhism, Taoism, Confusianism, and heck even some animism has worked well in the 'far east', it won't survive post modernism, Christianity, Judaism and Islam will. By the data, you are far better off as happily spiritually completely invested in religion. Until transhumanism eliminates hierarchy, I don't foresee better options. and I don't know if we would even be considered humans at that point anyways, testosterone/adreniline/dopamine are what get us up in the morning to a long and fruitful life.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

@@Jointknight I doubt it. Study after study shows secular democracies outscore theocratic societies (including Christian ones) in every measure of wellbeing: health, longevity, education, crime, corruption, wealth, access to justice, social services and infrastructure. It is not just one survey but overwhelmingly every single one This is why religion is on the decline in countries with access to education and the internet

[@Jointknight]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 That's a really common misconception, one that has been propagated about the 'evils of the west.' But it's simply untrue. Study after study demonstrates 'the religious' outliving the irreligious. Depending on which study you use christians in the west outlive everyone else by about 4-10 years, depending on the study and it's aim. In the east even the Japanese are spiritualists that, while they may not believe in a 'literal God' defintiely believe they are going to heaven. even in Scandinavia the cultural undertrappings of Lutheranism undergirds the population even though 80% 'don't believe in a literal God' And if you go to all the 'blue zones', all of them , heavily devoutly 'culturally' religious. Cost Rica, Sardinia, Okinawa, Loma Linda so on and so forth. Suicides by non christian are higher (there are exceptions depending on how you would classify Mormons for instance) Then there's the scientifically demonstrable effect of real spiritual prayer, while it won't cure cancer those that engage in it are far better off. And if you're going to look all this up, please contrast meditation vs prayer and secular prayer vs spiritual prayer, there are differences there too. Besides so much of the complaint here is essentially the social traditionalist vs social progressive argument, it really isn't about religion necessarily, but yes there are trade offs like education and IQ. However I will submit to you that those with much higher IQs aren't actually happier people. Not to mention the facts that prior to Chsrtianity women and children were used as sex workers for the dominant men in society, exactly the same thing the sexual revolution has produced today in Tinder. then you have war which is overwhelmingly caused for irreligious for, even if you count the heads of the soldiery. the greatest human travesties (not all wars) travesties which is also mostly irreligious in design, the abolition of slavery in the west which was forced by very devout Christians and some atheists. Then there's the very real problem that once you remove religion that you're going to go back to all those things. Back to feudalism, back to boinking children, back to women losing any rights, back to a loss of the right to stand up to your government and we're already starting to see the cracks show. You say were better off today than ever before, but besides a few solid medical advances I'd have to ask by what standard. Depopulation is a real threat to the human project, technology on a myriad of fronts has become a threat, social media is literally poison to barely pubescent teens, Ai is being used by psychopaths trying to make money, multiculturalism does not work, the sexual revolution didn't work, share holding doesn't work, democracy isn't working, and weve already tried full socialism, communism, feudalism and they all result in the same thing a puppet show for plutocrats. which again comes back to those same very small minority of men that are of strong enough psychopathy to will to dominate. and we can't rid ourselves of nepotism, selfish interest, dopamine motivations, tribalism etc. no matter how much we value the better angels of our nature, that is without something bigger than us. And there is nothing closer to home than a belief in God. Which is why all those social democracies you're trying to make example of can still hold the thread of society together by. Yes, in a perfect world, religion is bad, except for all the rest.

[@kimsteinke713]

You're going to find on your journey that God has been so manipulated in the creation it's more resembles a man and you're going to realize over your journey your God will change as you grow because we create God in the image of our faith and religion or culture. But as you grow old or at least I did I don't know what you're going to do but I did and I'm gay always been gay since my being born but I see God so much bigger and I don't see the God as a government I don't see the God as he's a church manipulates I don't see that God anymore you know but I'm 61 I've almost died three times and I'm at peace with God but God changes because we change as we age and we understand life and we grow wise so it's ludicrous for us to tell others what to do with their life and their identity as if we know the mind and the heart of God that should be individual It's humbling when you realize this anyway be careful the stories you tell for they can cast a spell. 🙏😇🏳️‍🌈🇺🇲

[@lutherstanislaus3362]

I understand what you are try to say, but if that were true no one would need God and would render God’s word ineffective, and unnecessary. If any one can do anything they feel is right in their eyes, and God would change his ways to suit everyone. God’s says heaven and earth will pass away but his word will not change. We change but God doesn’t. So if we find our identity in Christ then the old man our fleshly desires will come under the authority of this unchanging word. So we will satisfied in him if we allow him to satisfy us with his water that we will not thirst for the things that his word clearly don’t condone. I think if you take some time to understand God’s word or get some help if you don’t understand fully certain scripture. But God if you realize says he never changes. We have to change to align ourselves to his standards.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Correct, no-one needs a god

[@JK-uo3pd]

Heresy

[@carolyntemple3928]

The LGB spelled people can be defeated with deliverance for them AND the witches that spelled these people. Amazing impact. Done many times. "I break the empowerment and assignments put on these people in Jesus name."

[@ChaplainPeter1]

What makes a man love another man as a woman? What makes a man love little children and want to marry them? Whatever it is it is not from the same Lord who created them male and female. Gen.<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="87">1:27</a> Creation clearly shows how men and women fit together in sexual and spiritual relationships. Eph.<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="322">5:22</a> Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. When a child is conceived the only way it is possible i.e a man and a woman, a soul is born that will spend eternity with the Lord or Hellfire without the Lord. No matter how loving and faithful a homosexual relationship may seem to be, it is demonic. Please note that as we enter the final stages of rebellion against the Lord, the LGBTQ is the tip of the spear leading the charge to destroy civilization. The family as ordained by the LORD Creator is the building blocks of civilization. Homosex is along the same lines as abortion cannibalism, pedophilia, beastiality, prostitution, transgenderism, transhumanism, etc. Many homosexuals are created out of rape from childhood predetors. It is Pagan. The victory over sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. There are many men and women who were captive that are happily married and have children. Same-sex attraction has been replaced by God-honoring relationships through the work of the Holy Spirit. They have overcome their sinful desires. If you think this is not possible it is because you refuse to believe God's word that homosex is an abomination to the Lord. The Lord has promised us that if a man truly repents he will have the victory in Jesus Christ. [Dan <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="696">11:36</a>-37 KJV] 36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. The antichrist is a Sodomite.

[@pridan94]

Imagine living your life based on a 2000 yr old book. Yikes!!!

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

We are not obliged to hold on to outdated ideas of our primitive superstitious ancestors, based on the norms and social mores of their time

[@JK-uo3pd]

Imagine referring to people of the past as primitive when every day we witness the greatest of atrocities and abominable displays of cruelty and evil known to man