Ukraine’s training on Challenger 2s 'probably to take up to six weeks'

It will likely take four to six weeks for Ukrainian Challenger 2 tank crews to be ready, a former British Army Royal Tank Regiment training officer has said.
Cliff Allum said: "The art of driving a T72 is very different indeed to driving a Challenger 2, but it is not rocket science."
More: www.forces.net/ukraine/mainta...
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[@1chish]

OK lets just remember we have had 24 Challengers in Poland and right on the border with Ukraine and 14 in Estonia further north since last year. Do we really think 20 or 30 Ukrainian tankies haven't already been all over those Challengers like a rash learning all there is to know so THEY can go back and train more crews? We had a bunch of Ukrainian artillery people fully trained before the press were told about what was being sent. The British Army have been training Ukraine forces since 2014 and have a really close relationship with them.

[@MinhTran-fc7jl]

I only hope so.

[@Scaleyback317]

I'm guessing they have experience of heavy armour and I believe they have already had training on the Challenger.

[@ianchinsor9248]

100% training has already been happening. May as well let Putin think these tanks are going to take longer to be seen in-front of him though

[@gaptaxi]

Don´t dare you write something sensible on KZbin! ;) Yes, I think there have been Ukrainians training on Challengers for a while, only the 3 piece ammo and loading effeciently takes a while to master, but in the good old days we had the .50 Browning Gun to keep us busy as well. I never met a good Chieftain driver who hadn´t driven a Centurion with Stick Shift etc. We train 17 year olds to drive our tanks so crews in the late 20´to 30´s will get rid of the `Nig´element in a crew. Nobody wants to see people die but I reckon these Challengers will be leading a Push in the South West that goes straight into Crimea to draw Russian Forces from Eastern Ukraine. Just got to get a few Kilo´s of Popcorn. ;)

[@evgeniybastrykov]

I think that most of the information is reported after the fact. In order for the enemy to not be able to track and interfere with training and the supply of weapons. I won’t be surprised if it turns out that the Ukrainians have already mastered the Patriot or Challenger , and the news only reports about the start of training

[@diagorosmelos3187]

Haha. The UK said they were going to train 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers. By the time media started to report this, they were half way through already! Bet there's Challengers with Ukrainian tankies already racing around some field in Northumberland or somewhere.

[@antonycharnock2993]

Sign on the A66 near the Warcop tank training grounds "DANGER! UKRAINIAN TANKIES CROSSING! WATCH OUT RUZZIES!"

[@riparianlife97701]

Haha! Putin's 300,000 new troops have managed to take MOST of Soledar.

[@brianlinke1856]

Old IDF saying....'The best tank is the one with the best crew".

[@HeBeDrGB]

That's true for any weapon system. (The best rifle is worthless in the hands of a blind infantryman).

[@rodgerbane3825]

Yeah, up to the point where the sensors on one tank can detect and hit another tank long before the second tank knows the first one is there. That's the key difference between the advanced Western tanks and a T-72.

[@BeresDominik]

Thats true. - a tanker from Hungary -

[@simonmountford4291]

@@rodgerbane3825 but they aren’t throwing T72s in are they? They’re now throwing T90Ms into the fight…

[@rodgerbane3825]

@@simonmountford4291 REALLY???? From what I can tell, its far more a case of them being down to throwing in T-64's. But the same thing is going to apply to a T-90.

[@michaeldenesyk3195]

There are a further 80+ Challenger 2 that will not be upgraded to the Challenger 3. I would guess that the 14 Challenger 2 will be used to create a nucleus for further follow on donations of the unmodified Challenger 2's that may follow?

[@Chiungalla79]

I think those which remain Challenger 2 will be needed to fill the gaps caused when the Challenger 2 to 3 conversation takes place. Refitting them will probably take individual tanks out of the pool for a couple of weeks or even month. And to not be caught with your throusers down, you have to keep those which will remain Challenger 2 until the conversion of the rest will be done. Alternatively you can limit yourself on how many Challengers can be refittet at once, but that will prolong the process of refitting.

[@MrDakkyz]

They also put a lot in storage around 2010 brining them back to active duty will take a lot of time money and what not.

[@robertpatrick3350]

@@MrDakkyz the costs of funding Ukraine now is cheap compared to dealing with Russia when they are rolling into the Baltics or Poland

[@teatanks6481]

considering those were meant for the spare parts bin I think after a while they might send those ones over. It's likely they'll train a surplus of crewmen on the Challenger this time round, that way they can fill in any later tanks. On top of that it'd be a good reason to restart our war industry, a sorely needed economic boost.

[@georget5874]

@@teatanks6481 The chances of any British government building new tanks from scratch is nil. A force of ~140 tanks is tiny and only exists as a box ticking exercise. If Britain in the future needed more tanks the bunch of traitors that lead us, would just buy stuff made in Korea or somewhere. The fact that the manufacturing expertise required to make new tanks is on the verge of being lost forever means absolutely nothing to the people running this country.

[@charlessk5653]

I am sure this decision to supply Challenger 2 tanks did not suddenly come out of the blue and that it had been under consideration internally for a while, waiting for the political sign-off. With this in mind and the need for speed am sure that in anticipation of the political "yes" from UK Gov, potential Ukrainian crews started Challenger 2 training/familiarisation a while back.

[@orvalprosacco1951]

I think so, too.

[@gc2696]

It's the best use for retired Challenger 2 ....? Better than mothballing, dismantling, selling or upgrading ... The ammunition for the rifled main gun is there to be used up. Any sensitive technology will be taken out before being handed over. MoD can gain valuable insight & order brand new Challenger 3 to build a larger fleet.

[@jenskreibach9424]

What I have seen so far is, that Ukrainian soldiers are very fast learners. Up to now they mastered every weapon system the west has delivered. I am very confident that they will be able to repeat that with the challenger.

[@thecurlew7403]

If UK send 14 tanks how will that show a difference 1 airstrike 1 antitank squad and there gone Russia hasnt even moved up its reserves of t90s and they wont run out of artillery 7 days us all nato has of artillery shells say top experts not you .

[@thomaspickard4138]

@@thecurlew7403 because it sends a signal to other ally’s and partners to also pull the finger out and send what Ukraine has asked for from day one new Morden Nato tanks. Plus Russian armour has no answer to challenger 2. They would have to destroy from the air or heavy artillery.

[@thecurlew7403]

@@thomaspickard4138 I just said that Ch 2 isnt new over 26 years old btw this is how they will start ww3 with Putin its already begun mr putin is in elites pockets book stage is being set so they can go ahead with making everyones life a misery.

[@Jay-vt1mw]

@@thecurlew7403 these 14 tanks are good for assaulting a position, life isn't war thunder most of the time tanks are used its not to kill other tanks.

[@thecurlew7403]

@@Jay-vt1mw Well Im sure the cremlin are scratching there head over 14 C 2 tanks.

[@rileyuktv6426]

I suspect they’ve already been trained..💛💙

[@tonymaries1652]

Oddly enough I thought about this the other day when the MoD made the official announcement. Type training for civil airline pilots for a new aircraft takes about six to eight weeks, and I thought it might be a similar time scale. I expect things will happen quite quickly because the Ukrainian Army will probably already have the crews lined up to go to the UK so there is a good chance they can be used in a spring offensive against key Russian positions. I think it might take quite a bit longer to get the logistics up to speed and they might have to stop at level 1 and level 2 tasks. I hope the MoD is actively considering the transfer of the rest of the 80 tanks which are still serviceable but will not be upgraded in the latest program. If the rest of Europe also plays their part and Ukraine has several hundred relatively modern MBTs by the summer they could be in a position to start taking back territory on a scale not seen since the autumn.

[@therealman2016]

They need f-16s then they can take back all

[@michaelkneale3825]

The crews may have been trained already? Good luck to them all!

[@danbatesy5492]

They haven’t mod already said they will be trained in month and still the training isn’t enough you need years so really it’s a waste

[@agt155]

@@danbatesy5492 The MOD aren't going to admit to training them in advance, because it would appear the decision to give Ukraine tanks was made months ago.

[@danbatesy5492]

@@agt155 well even if they was trained months that’s still no good is it a few months training on them and don’t forget the training on maintenance.

[@ericconnor8419]

They will probably work out some new tricks with them and teach us in a few months.

[@toastrecon]

I'm guessing they'd hopefully have enough to have A/B crews so they can be rotated into and out of combat.

[@whya2ndaccount]

1:37 I love the comment "paramilitary AA". All the Spanners I've worked with were in the Army, not paramilitaries.

[@stupendouslife8128]

Ukraine arm forces has showed that they are fast learners and super effective using high precision western weapons 👍🇬🇧🇺🇦🇬🇧🇺🇦👍👊👊🇺🇦🇺🇦

[@OrdinaryJoe12]

What, the men they are arresting for enlisted duty in the city streets as they go out for the milk and bread.

[@gone547]

@@OrdinaryJoe12 do you speak of Russian conscripts, mercenaries, criminals and baby killers, or highly motivated Ukrainian patriots protecting their nation and people from a one little dictator and a mob of neanderthal troglodytes. Big difference.

[@willemvanriet7160]

Thanks for the awesome insight

[@marta_777]

I have been working for six months with a volunteer organization that helps Ukraine. the talents of the Ukrainian people are impressive! I believe that Ukrainians will quickly learn new things!

[@Werrf1]

I would be very surprised if it actually takes six weeks. There's no way this is some spur-of-the-moment decision, and that they couldn't start training until the deal was announced; If they have any sense, there will be Ukrainian tank crews in Britain who've been training for weeks already, in preparation for this announcement.

[@wademchenry1560]

The logistics behind the tank is the key factor.

[@peterwait641]

Good luck fitting oversized idler arms lol

[@bastogne315]

I'm qualified on the Churchill. 55% WR on WoT. Ready to deploy ...Sir!!

[@haphazardprism]

😂🤣

[@JC-il6ps]

I once spent half a day operating the main gun on one of those paintball Tanks based on a 432...available to deploy once spare socks and Pot Noodles are packed.

[@06colkurtz]

Not having a loader on Ukranian tanks is not an issue. Tank crews rotate personnel all the time. They are constantly moving from one tank to another. Loaders become drivers become gunners become TCs. The training for each crew position is very standardized so you can move a gunner from one tank to another crew and the tactics, techniques and procedures are identical. With a range, unlimited training ammunition, and a highly motivated Ukiranian crew, I could teach them to operate an Abrams in a week. They already know how to maneuver, how to shoot, how to load. All they need is to be shown the knobology for the new tank, then conduct battle drill for a week and they will be good to go. I have done it with new crews frequently. Its as you say not rocket science, its battle drill.

[@asan1050]

Thanks Much !

[@stuartbennett7614]

Handy beasts in a battlegroup with as90 , Bradley together, quite punchy nice for limited breakthroughs and firefighting in the spring

[@LinXnerd]

Finally! A military news channel that gives info that I can actually use. Nice! 👌

[@watchthe1369]

Start an OJT (on job training) round robin. Grab grunts and drop them in as loaders. As they gain skill put them in old tanks as drivers or gunners. take the drivers and gunners and put them in the new stuff and promote the better ones to tank commanders. Now you get mostly experienced crews in the modern stuff. Reasonably experienced guys in the older stuff, and all the tankers have some combat experience to make the hardware last longer.

[@danielwhyatt3278]

ABSOLUTELY. tHAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE. wE LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.

[@pdarley58]

I thought her question was when will they be operationally effective? That will take months! Trying to flood Ukrainian army (or what’s left of it) with western heavy weapons is not going to work. Too many weapons, very little commonality will be a disaster. C2 is particularly problematic as it has a unique gun and ammo (2 piece) and is nit compatible with other western MBTs. As Russia dominated the air all the tanks will be vulnerable. This is a pointless gesture and will make little or no difference!

[@pdarley58]

They have lost all their experienced crews. It’s not bring widely reported on western MSM but Ukraine has unfortunately lost about 80%!if it’s armed forces. All this kit we are sending is pointless. It serves the military industrial complex but little else. This is NATO stirring up trouble and using Ukrainian lives to fight their proxy war. It’s sad and disgusting!!!

[@99ron30]

@@pdarley58 That's for the logistics experts to figure out. And considering multiple nations have been going over such scenarios since at least 2014 I am pretty confident they have half an idea. Challenger tanks in one area with their own lines of logistics, Leopards in another with their own lines of logistics. A difficult task but not impossible.

[@Aeronaut1975]

I do hope we supply them with a sh**load of Yorkshire tea bags to use in their new Challenger II tea making machines. Slava Ukraini!

[@kevindelaney1951]

I’m a retired Canadian service member. X2 Infantry reserve units & x1 Regular Armour unit over my service life. I’m so glad NATO is giving more & more equipment & training to Ukraine. Continued success to Ukraine. They need our support all the way to the finish.

[@trevornelmes9331]

Assuming they haven't already been training them in last 6 months. Just in case. Been plenty of Ukrainians in both the UK and Poland.

[@dogemccoin8318]

Even after 6 months you would be a total novis, it takes 6 months just to learn the basics and a couple of years more to master it, considering they would be going up against modern T90's with a faster reload rate i don't have much confidence. We sending people to die. And this guy says 6 weeks! Jesus!

[@willn1958]

@@dogemccoin8318 I suppose the Ukrainians training in the Challengers wont be complete novices though, but experienced (potentially battle hardened) Ukrainian tank crews who are just learning to operate a more modern tank? Surely this must count for something (I'm not speaking from any experience)

[@georgegeorgakopoulos5956]

In Forces News we trust

[@davidramos5216]

I'm anxious to see what will happens to Russians T-72 or T-90 when hit by 120mm shell, maybe finally their turrets are going to Earth's orbit!

[@thinkdeep8806]

Fin stabilized sabo rounds will go in one side and out the other, knife through butter.

[@humphreybradley3060]

Just don’t go poking around the wreckage, depleted uranium residue will make you glow in the dark!!!!

[@customdioramics7961]

Look at the last Gulf War for your answer. Blown to pieces they will be.

[@Silver_Prussian]

Nothing cuase even the best 120mm apfsds cant really pen them from the front but that doesn't matter as tanks dont fight each other very often if at all. I am anxious what will happen to those challengers if hit by a 152mm anti tank kornet missile or an RPG to the side

[@Silver_Prussian]

@@thinkdeep8806 from the front ? Good luck especialy with the ERA i dont see it happening

[@williampatterson717]

Ukrainian tankies have been training on the Challenger 4-months. You're only be told what the government wants you to know.

[@valeryferry1658]

You are false. Of course , our government doesn’t give us the whole information but they don’t lie like it is going on in ukraine

[@ProjecthuntanFish]

Training a loader is incredibly easy. Many times while on US Marine tanks we used loaders who did not have a tanker mos like Corpsman (Navy medics)and combat engineers.

[@Kizron_Kizronson]

The loader is also responsible for the BV though, making a proper brew inside a tank is an artform that needs time to perfect. IIRC America only recently started installing BV's into their combat vehicles.

[@ptbot]

Takes a little longer with three piece ammunition

[@MrOhdead]

It used to be the UK loader is 2nd I/c and responsible for the radio taking a load off the commander.

[@MrLense]

1 week just for them to operate the built in boiling unit

[@GiveMeBackMyUsernameYouTube]

Of course, it's the most important piece of equipment in the vehicle.

[@Aeronaut1975]

You can't go to war without the means to make tea!

[@peterwait641]

Not if the power cable has dropped down and got cut off , no dummy socket !

[@solreaver83]

I wouldn't be surprised if we were to ever hear they are already training them or have been for a while

[@s1nb4d59]

I would be surprised if the british had'nt already seen this need for logistics support first and already had the teams near ready for training completion by the time they trained the tank crews for readiness on the challenger,i expect they know what they are doing.

[@aleksanderszczurek8629]

Proud of UK acting. 10 or even 20 is not going to turn the wheel of war, however will surely help and will be the beginning of a new era in help for Ukraine. Three or four countries promised 14 Leo2 each, in total were talking already about quite many! Hopefully it all happens at all and soon!

[@mafmaf6417]

What about ammo and logistics. If they receive Leopard 2's, it will mean another tank that uses different ammo, parts, ect. There must be countries out there that can send them more T72's and other Soviet/ Russian armor.

[@Walterwaltraud]

Yep, Eastern Europe is still full of them, but no media outlet ever reports on that. I counted over 1200 T72 and the like a while back. Easy to substitute those with 30% of the 3700 (!) M1 Abrams the US has in storage in California. Mostly same ammo, easy maintenance, and other than the 100 mm from Romania the differences are minor.

[@JC-il6ps]

Yes there are still large stocks of Soviet made tanks scattered about. The problem is that Ukraine needs Tanks which have better survivability to stand a chance of making positive progress.The vulnerability due to the design of their current Tank types means things will not positively change, no matter how many T-types are donated, they are just too vulnerable. If you put a Challenger, Leopard or Abrams against any Soviet T-type tank, the Western model will always stand the better chance of; surviving hits, keeping the crew alive and moving onto the next target.

[@Walterwaltraud]

@@JC-il6ps Well if they are so bad for their own crew, how come all those countries upgraded them recdently with better fire control, thermal vision, laser range finders, ERA etc? Yes, because they are still useful. Very useful. Can be used instantly by Ukraine. Simplifies the logistics chain. They are not too vulnerable if used properly. As we all saw in the Kharkiv offensive. Scholz deserves plenty of criticism, but not before ATACMS have destroyed all air fields in Crimea, all railway yards in Eastern Donbass, not before all T72s etc. have been handed over to Ukraine and the UK standardized to NATO ammo 120mm by rolling over the the M1. All you need is 160? Wonderful, get them from Uncle Joe and take one for the team. Budapest memorandum anyone? I rest my case.

[@iamafish928]

The moment we started supporting Ukraine in this war we should have started training them with all our equipment so it can instantly be sent and used. No waiting about

[@texleeger8973]

One Challenger 2 squadron in Ukraine = greasing skids for unleashing Leopard 2s in Ukraine. A pronounced kick in wobbly Germany's proverbial and shameful ###.

[@heybabycometobutthead]

14 tanks each firing 25 rounds a day, that 350 rounds a day for all 14 vehicles, that 2,450 a week for all vehicles, basically 10,000 a month, people keep saying send 50 tanks, send 100 tanks, I doubt there is ammunition to supply more than 10,000 rounds a month for a prolonged period of time.

[@JC-il6ps]

From what information there is out there regarding limited ammo stocks and production of more stock not being possible due to closure of sites/firms, I can well believe in what you say is accurate. I guess the main hope/goal from the Challenger donation is to smash the taboo barrier for the Germans and Yanks, hopefully resulting in them sending Leopards and Abrams, for which there is a huge amount of ammo available.

[@agt155]

Our ordnance factories produced enough battle ammunition stocks to supply 400 CR2's in a war. I doubt supplying 14 would be an issue.

[@heybabycometobutthead]

@@agt155 which war was that?

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

@@agt155 your industry stopped producing Challenger 2 ammunition on any scale more than 10 years ago. stop coping dude.

[@agt155]

@@heybabycometobutthead there is enough ammo in stock to supply 400 cr2s in an all-out war (Russia) for 30 days.

[@synthilein]

Six weeks is less than expected. I mean sure Ukrainian army will field experienced/trained tank crewmen, but western tanks are just so different than Soviet designed ones. It's one thing to know a tank's controls but another thing thing to master a tank…

[@Discoveryjamie]

They have already been at Salisbury 😅 look at the 4x4 videos recently on KZbin

[@garygavin857]

Tank supplied crew trained. But the next building block is at brigade & divisional operation. Thats a different beast. 10 challenger 2 tanks too Ukraine. Really ! I guess its come on down from high.

[@99ron30]

Need to get those Jordanian/Oman Challenger 1 upgraded and sent too. And we need to get all the ammunition factories back online at full capacity.

[@sshep86]

Ammunition... Spare parts etcx etc... Why is none of this mentioned. Fair enough having 14 tanks but if one breaks its tracks or the gears break;. How do they fix this?

[@henkgroothuismink]

Ik hoop dat het aantal tanks verhoogd zal worden, Een volk dat zo dapper voor zijn vrijheid vecht verdiend dat

[@Thesomersetgimp]

Could play a vital role in attacking fox structures in a spring offensive. These things specialise in remote demolition.

[@ScienceChap]

REME is not "paramilitary". They are soldiers, just like everyone else in the Army, with a different skill set based on their training.

[@Jakob_DK]

Is he saying they have not been training for a while already?

[@al-azimahmed1188]

I can't see this actually happening, were going to give them 14 challenger 2's. I doubt they will be able to fix and maintain such a vehicle, let alone the logistical nightmare. We couldn't get parts on exercise or on operational tours, yet we going to supply and train these ex soviet crews

[@Retroscoop]

And is being trained "in the very basics" sufficient, both for drivers, operators and maintenance ?

[@Kizron_Kizronson]

Not for raw recruits now. But as mentioned at the very beginning. It's not teaching them how to be tank crew. It training them to do what they already know how to do, but with different equipment.

[@tedteddington6223]

If they are tank crews already, then all they need to know is the specifics of the Challenger. They know what to aim at, how to drive, how to communicate. Just leaves the loader to train. They should be fine. What is worrying is that there are only 14 of them. Ukraine needs 300.

[@philwhiting5769]

@@tedteddington6223 hopefully if these Challengers are a success we can supply more as requested

[@tedteddington6223]

@@philwhiting5769 how successful do expect a squadron to be? Without a combined arms doctrine, which the Ukrainians are incapable of. It's no more than virtue arming

[@roymichaeldeanable]

Says 4 weeks, I reckon 1 Ukraine has had tanks for the last 77 years, what do you think they were doing doing WW2

[@nlomas]

Best option is to take the crews from the T55S tanks where they would be used to working as a team of 4 and nato ammunition (albeit also limited in time and different calibre)

[@JC-il6ps]

That may well work to a point, however the Challenger doesn't use standard NATO rounds due to the 3 part ammo and rifled barrel situation.

[@nlomas]

@@JC-il6ps true but the 4 man crew will have drills for a 4 man crew so be better placed than a T72 crew used to a auto loader.

[@JC-il6ps]

@@nlomas ah yes that's a good point actually

[@tatradak]

There are a number of issue one is the 70 tonne weight vs the T72 variant which is only 40 tonne...this will be the main issue to deal with.....what have they got to recover one of these lumps of steel... The Ukrainian equivalent of Bovington is Kharkiv Design Bureau but this is too dangerous now so it will probably be on the hoof....

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

NATO equipment that got damaged or needs maintenance has to be shipped via rail and flatbed to Poland or Slovakia. Ukraine is not repairing this stuff at home. Thats also the main reason why M1 Abrams would be "no problem", because it would have had to be shipped to Poland anyways for maintenance.

[@tatradak]

@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Fair enough push the point to the community...

[@dogemccoin8318]

Imagine passing your driving test in 6 weeks and then being thrown into grand prix but with guns and your life depends on it ... pretty much what we are seeing here.

[@BingoPaletot]

Except that you are already a Formula 1 driver who simply gets a better car.

[@MinhTran-fc7jl]

I think they are highly motivated, it is do or die for the sake of their country.

[@Georgi_Slavov79]

Guesstimation-didnt know that one!

[@martinanderson4721]

The interviewee who says " it's not rocket science " well now, what about the failure of the Virgin Orbit - the rocket science there was missing. It's a silly platitude any way.

[@roymichaeldeanable]

Jordon has 300 Challenger 1, so it can't be rocket science

[@robertpatrick3350]

@FuckashimaMonaCher Jordan are phasing their C1’s out + they have 392 of them they would be a good option for Ukraine….. or for a turret and armour upgrade

[@agt155]

I doubt Jordan could field 50 working CR1's. We gave them 400 tired 20 yr old CR1's 20 yrs ago, I'd bet 3/4 have already been cannibalised for spares.

[@noelcahill6707]

On top of the challenger 3s that 1 will have there should be another 150 tanks bought american or german but nos should be 300 at least id go with german tanks as if there was a conflict and tanks had to be bought in at least crews would already know them

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

there are almost no Leopard 2´s to spare in europe. german industry has 20, poland can spare at maximum 80, Finnland maybe 14, Spain another 20-30. then numbers get tight, as we would now talk about in service equipment

[@rodgerbane3825]

Will the complexity of the sensors and the goodies like the tech used to identify targets and aim the gun going to present any difficulties? My understanding is ALL the real goodies the West is sending, Advanced tanks/Helicopters/ APCs ect have way more advanced sensors and electronics than a T-72 for example.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

none of that stuff is on Challenger 2. CR2 has a late 80´s thermal imager for the gunners sight and thats basicly it. Its a late 80´s tech vehicle, comparable to Leopard 2A4, M1A1 or Leopard 1A5. Back in 92 the armor was quite good, but since then the russians didnt sleep and developed better ammunition that can penetrate Challenger 2´s frontal armor.

[@seeker1432]

What would be the ramifications to the UK of a challenger tank being captured.

[@gordonlowe7157]

We could send the full tank fleet to ukraine and buy M1A1 from America. Morocco got 150 tor free as long as they payed the $380m upgrade bill . We are planning to upgrade 140 challenger 2 to 3 at a cost of over £1billion not really cost effective

[@antonleimbach648]

Ukrainian soldiers already are proficient on driving tanks. This should have been started last year. Same with training Ukrainians on F-16’s.

[@OrdinaryJoe12]

500k casualties since Feb. 150k killed. The experienced soldiers are all dead

[@stephencrossland2493]

Agree not enough. We should train enough for all 228. Make Wallace chancellor !

[@martingump]

I'm afraid my money is on the training of Ukrainians on the Challenger having started weeks ago. I just think much is being done on the quiet to stop Putin. 😉

[@danbatesy5492]

It takes six weeks to be trained sorry that’s not enough to be giving challengers not to mention maintenance. All I can see is the same problem the leopards had when turkey had them not knowing how to use them.

[@LimerickWarrior1]

Training was probably done months back. They didn't just wake up and go "oh we need to send tanks". Notice how the germans announced ammo supply increase for AA around the same time as this announcement.

[@Silver_Prussian]

Yeah no dont make such assumptions

[@nasaali1]

They would need 200 of those tanks to make a meaningfull difference.

[@bongeyedbill9355]

Not one of those tanks falls into the opposition hands!!! Saying that, we welcome the Ukrainians to the best tank on the battlefield 👍

[@anhconroy6172]

this is quite a normal period for training. Knowing the experience of the Ukrainian military and their desire to learn, I am sure they will succeed

[@darrenbrians5930]

There is no substitute for being on a battle feild. They will learn fast. They will prefer the challenger to the leopard. We made a big mistake going smooth bore. With the challenger 3. And this will prove it. There is no substitute for the hesh round. If infantry have people in a building they want gone. Hesh round. If you want kill everyone on a tank. Then take the tank. Hesh round.

[@ecaeas4439]

I thought smoothbore guns have better penetrative ability though? There must be a reason all other Western MBTs use smoothbore.

[@bastogne315]

Hershey Bar or Hershey Bar

[@robertpatrick3350]

@@ecaeas4439 70mm more penetration…… Hesh can be fired by smooth bore guns but requires fins etc … it becomes far less effective as the resulting warhead is far smaller

[@andrewhayes7055]

@@ecaeas4439 Smooth bore guns do have better penetrative ability with sabot rounds. The British use rifled guns for the ability to fire HESH rounds against lighter armoured vehicles and fortifications such as buildings and bunkers.

[@darrenbrians5930]

@@ecaeas4439 Yeah they do on paper have more accuracy firing the armour pearsing rounds. As they creat there own spin. However the record for the longest kill. A crazy 5.1 miles was done with a challenger. The hesh rounds are superb though. And will be missed.

[@Wolf-hh4rv]

Can’t believe British army has so few. Crazy.

[@jimmiller6713]

well if the crew has the tactical know how...driving and firing the weapon shouldnt be out of scope...these arent peace time troops being trained.. so a war like crash course should be excepected ..maintence and repairs will be what you expect it to be in a war fixing a tank under fire...not ideal but im sure these ukraine soldiers know this

[@simonmountford4291]

Yes, that’s to know how to start it up and drive it around…how long to train them in combined battlefield tactics? Here’s a clue 🕵🏻‍♂️ it’s not six weeks.

[@niallrussell7184]

Leopard 2 would be so much better for them. Challengers might have been designed to fight the Russians, but that was with UK logistics behind them, ammo, parts, building bridges that can take their weight, etc. Maybe they'll find flaws with them, that can make the C3 better.

[@nian60]

If Germany won't allow Leopard 2's then sadly that's not an option. Several countries want to send Leopard 2's but Germany says no. ☹

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

@@1chish ammunition production basicly ceased more than 10 years ago for Challenger 2

[@1chish]

@Niall Russell - So remind me how many Leopard tanks are currently in Ukraine? Exactly. So why will they not have a logistics problem and we will? The UK put 227 Challengers into Kuwait at short notice with full logistics support. None failed due to combat or fuel shortage or whatever. We did a similar exercise into Iraq. We have 38 Challengers in Poland and Estonia. They are there with full logistics support. I really do not see why it suddenly becomes an issue for the 14 Challengers.

[@1chish]

@@nian60 Sorry just realised I replied to you by mistake. Should have been to the OP. Brain fade!

[@1chish]

@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Oh did it really? So what are the 38 Challengers in Estonia and Poland using for ordnance? Penny Bangers?

[@voggunn]

Britain should send all their Challenger 2's plus most of the Warrior IFV's to Ukraine instead of spending $1.3 Billion to upgrade 140 old tanks to Challenger 3, the tanks would be much more use in Ukraine to put an armored division in the field. $1.3 Billion could buy over 150 brand new K2 tweaked for British Army requirements, these tanks also do not need special ammo. Britain could also provide jobs by building under license.

[@JC-il6ps]

It would only take 2-4 months to train crews and transport your quoted amount of Challengers and Warriors to Ukraine. However, it would likely take 2-4 years to manufacture the replacements for those vehicles, meaning our own Army will be significantly weakened for a period. Although our Challengers and Warriors are nearing the point of expiry/being obsolete, they are all we have to fill the gaps until new equipment is built and available.

[@voggunn]

@@JC-il6ps I do take your point, I guess I do not see England as being invaded anytime soon, and England does have nuclear weapons as a disincentive, also NATO membership although I could see some complaining about not having a meaningful Armour contribution. However everything is on the line in Ukraine and dragging things out only serves Putin's interests, Ukraine needs the tanks now a lot more urgently than does England and NATO.

[@JC-il6ps]

@@voggunn yeah to be fair I mostly agree to a point. Being a Nuke equipped NATO member does somewhat lessen the need for our own large sized armoured force. The longstanding (perhaps somewhat outdated) concern from certain points of view, is that if we were to enter into an old fashioned ground war as part of NATO, then there wouldn't be too much depth to our fleet to make up for any losses. Yes NATO partners would hopefully contribute to re-equipping as we no longer have our own Britain based facilities to do so. Though somewhat of a ludicrous theory, I genuinely think and hope that the massive loss of equipment in France/Dunkirk in WW2 should always serve as a lesson, regarding appropriate equipping of and distribution of vehicles/weapons etc. Always have a functioning/useful reserve and never be caught without a leg to stand on.

[@voggunn]

@@JC-il6ps The point being that Russia does not want to get into a shooting way with NATO especially with the Americans, England would have to time to have new tanks delivered from the South Koreans. If Russia are forced back in the Spring then that will create a completely new dynamic.

[@JC-il6ps]

@@voggunn on its own, Russia definitely wouldn't stand a chance in a conventional war with NATO. As long as China or Nukes aren't brought to the table by Putin, then the outcome of the Ukraine war should be in favour of the Western perspective.

[@trapset1539]

Who thinks they've already been trained?

[@ianc7866]

Me! And they have been getting training for months.

[@1chish]

I would guess from about the time in July 2022 the 14 British Army Challengers arrived in Poland and the 24 arrived in Estonia to backfill the T-72s the Poles sent to Ukraine and support NATO.

[@jeep146]

When we talk about training it usually implies taking someone who has no experience with tanks and tank warfare. These Ukraine tank students probably know more then the instructors now on offensive and defense from actual experience. Pushing buttons is the easy part.

[@justacomment1657]

No it's not. Ask the leopard2 drivers... The easy part on the cat is to drop the chain... Pushing some buttons is one thing, pushing them in the wrong order can have a pretty undesirable side effect... Learning to press said easy buttons, the correct ones, without thinking about it...und pressure is the hard thing. It is easy to learn to disassemble a G36 for instance. Doing it with little to no sleep, in a stressed situation, maybe on low light to clean the damn thing is totally different if your life depends on it... And I guess this holds true for the more complex systems as well... Alsow... Just show me the experienced gunner and loader the Ukrainians have...

[@KKTR3]

The worlds gone war mad-aside from that, we’re giving million pound plus vehicles to 4 blokes with a couple of weeks training!!!! Mad, we must be literally mad Every pun intended

[@madade27]

Give them ALL of our challengers..and buy Lepard II's as replacements for our own tank regiments. Two birds , one stone..at least the Ukraine will have rapid access some decent heavy armour ,until the ammunition runs out anyway. That rifled gun is a liability logistically on a universal NATO battlefield. Then UK will have a (cheaper) solution to the Challenger III debate.

[@agt155]

Leopard 2 is a 45 yrs old design.

[@audraklein9765]

One country after another increases military assistance to Ukraine. Everyone is aware of the fact that we must be with Ukraine until the victory))

[@A3Kr0n]

"It's not rocket science". He's right, it's tank science.

[@seafirefr.4751]

I can’t wait to see how they perform on the frontline against these tin cans filled with TNT.

[@redordead4491]

Estonia already has them.

[@KKTR3]

Another day, another sad day where people think they’re playing computer games, instead of the destiny of the world

[@David-wp2iw]

The greatest motivation to learn fast is possibility to die next month for not knowing something.

[@mariannabatz9733]

I hope that Ukraine will continue to get all the weapons it needs to help it kick out the Russian occupiers

[@petermaclean9326]

I love how he said " man...or woman " begrudgingly

[@commentingpausedtoprotectus]

Umm what about the gender neutrals ? 😐

[@danbatesy5492]

Got every confidence in the tank but I guarantee the training isn’t a enough takes years to learn to use use something like challenger not to mention the maintenance this so call secret tank will end up in Russian hands within 5 months.

[@BingoPaletot]

Not for people who are already tankers with actual combat experience.

[@tomsoki5738]

I don't think thats a good idea, I think they will get much more out of the tank with a few more weeks training to become properly familiar with the systems not just get the basics down

[@shaddaboop7998]

They know the basics of how to use a tank, this is conversion training to get them familiar with the Challenger 2 specifically, and also practice the new dynamic of having a fourth crewmember. I think six to eight weeks is reasonable enough.

[@Kizron_Kizronson]

This is assuming that those crews haven't been secretly training for months already. The UK has been training Ukrainian troops since 2014 in Ukraine and has continued to do so in the UK since this war started. There has been a lul in the fighting since Kherson was recaptured perfect opportunity to sneak some crews away for training.

[@jplater9191]

Get them everything they need to keep these behemoths going while they repel Putin’s Orcs!

[@truckerinsight1179]

Afghanistan army trained to fight the taliban and look what happened. Iraquí army also trained and when ISIS arrived look what happened. Now Ukrainians are being trained to fight Russians and we expect they learn in six weeks what others learn in years.

[@tringuyen7519]

Ukraine has similar challenges to the 24 M2 Bradleys being sent by the US. Hopefully, Ukraine will learn the nighttime ambush tactics due to the superior optics on NATO armored vehicles.

[@valeryferry1658]

I think that we have to not only supple Ukraine with military force but also give them the property teaching

[@Arminas666]

I will learn how to flight fighter jet in 6 weeks too 😂🤣

[@willw8011]

The US Army needs 22 weeks to take someone from civilian to a basically trained tank crew. 10 weeks of that will be basic training to teach them how the basics of being in the US Army. The other 12 weeks is to learn the very basics of how to be an entry level tank crew member. More advanced training and war games will be with the units they serve in. 6 weeks... that is not enough. Sometimes it is also better to train someone that never been in similar type of equipment, because they have pervious knowledge and habits that will only confuse them in battle.

[@ecaeas4439]

You're right, although I'm guessing that they're taking troops who were already specialised as tankers. At least they'll have the experience of operating under combat conditions, although as you say it takes a lot longer to become proficient with a platform that is far different to the Soviet tanks. These tanks will only be effective if the crews are proficient in using them. That's where the Russians are going badly wrong - abysmal training, and bad tactics.

[@Aron-ru5zk]

These aren’t civilians though, they are already tank crews, they just need to learn a new tank.

[@BingoPaletot]

They are tank crews with actual combar experience, not rookies who have just been through basic training, bud.

[@willw8011]

@@BingoPaletot Maybe experience with other tanks, completely different tanks. Training and experience develops habits and old habits are not a good thing, when stress and fear become hinderances to thinking. A lot of militaries don't like to train the old dogs to do new tricks, because they are set in their ways of doing things and all of that cannot completely be unlearned and replaced, especially in a short time.

[@chewbaccassecretlover1244]

40 days is great

[@mattnstuff7187]

Or or or… send the British tank crews to operate and fight in them, lie to Russia and say they’re Ukrainian

[@realitygaming4088]

They have learnt everything to a T they have been given, they wont have a problem.

[@gc2696]

Russians will not engage tank on tank with Challenger 2....but target their thin top armour with artillery & missiles....There will be loses. 😨😥

[@donxz2555]

12-14 Challenger 2 tanks is just a pathetic response- C3 upgrades leaves 79 C2 that are going to be scrapped Then the Ammo is non-standard and needs suppling, the weight will be problematic as Soviet era tanks are around 20 ton lighter so bridges may not take a C2 so 14 tanks with no or little stores of spares and ammo, no bridging support and no tank transporters or recovery vehicles leaves this as ‘gesture politics’ not real intervention. Far better that countries that have stockpiles of reserve tanks like Leopard 1 and 2 or Others be supplied as even L1 is a capable tank against Russian opposition- like many things of the UK government all propaganda and no substance

[@1chish]

Blimey mate get your expert arse over to the MoD as they are clearly missing a far better informed person than the decades of experience already there .....

[@valeryferry1658]

It was not a secret that Russia wouldn’t stop only on Ukraine

[@roymichaeldeanable]

The UK should offer Military training for multiple Miltary assets... This could be supported by the MOD and a good money spinner

[@amb8274]

It's immensely frustrating that this training has not already taken place. Train Ukrainians on systems NOW in anticipation of the politicians catching up later.

[@will.s4611]

LOL there's been ukrainian soldiers here in bovington for the last 5 months training on everything

[@amb8274]

@@will.s4611 Assuming you have access to accurate information then that is good news.