Ulrich-(MX) | Evolutionary Reason For Transgender | Talk Heathen 06.29

[@RozzieBass]

I love Katy so much! She always gives so much information with such patience and grace. ❤ I learned a ton from this clip!

[@MilesDavisKDAB]

Is evolution taught badly in schools? The number of people who have completely misunderstood what evolution is and the chemical & biological mechanisms that underlie it is quite staggering.

[@acspicer]

In the US you’re lucky if it’s taught at all, such is the grip delusional Christofascists have on our education system.

[@emanekaf1543]

Yes. My middle school science teacher was a Methodist pastor, so we just skipped the evolution section. To be fair to him, he forgave non-excessive tardies.

[@blarglemantheskeptic]

There doesn't have to be an evolutionary advantage to a given trait, particularly if: A) It has little effect upon the ability of the individual to pass on the trait (reproduce), or if; B) The necessary adaptations required to prevent it interfere with other traits that are more strongly selected, or if C) Those adaptations are complex and thus extremely unlikely to occur. Consider the case with the loss of the ability to synthesise Vitamin C: this has little effect upon our ancestors, since their diets generally contained plenty of fresh plant matter. It wasn't, really, until the age of sail that it became a real problem.

[@blarglemantheskeptic]

Transgenderism appears to be due to an (uncommonly occurring) change in the hormonal milieu between the early stages of fetal growth where gonadal development is initiated and later stages where brain development mostly occurs. The relative scale of that differential may explain the large spread of gender variation seen within the group. Summary: (Generally speaking) the condition is congenital (i.e. people are born that way).

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

I totally hadn't heard that about meerkats. How educational!

[@Jrpyify]

Katy: "... whatever a group of Bonobos is called-". JP: " - a 'Burning Man'?" Lmao

[@johntuel2375]

After reading the headline, my mind went immediately to pokemon evolutions for some reason. Like the evolution music plays, then the text would say "transgender has evolved to Kai or Pheonix". 🤣🤣🤣

[@SC-jh9qp]

Checkmate.

[@Rage867]

We were able to survive more efficiently by having gay and trans members of the tribe which filled the gaps for lost or killed parents so there were adults to take care of the orphaned children which helped the tribe grow.

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

For homosexuality, kin selection also comes into play. A gay uncle can contribute to the survival of siblings offspring, without contributing any himself, allowing conservation of resources while improving survival odds by adding an extra adult for defense and resource gathering.

[@callithasmed8468]

That's just a hypothesis though, and traditionally those genders tend to be either indistinct (due to egalitarianism in more primitive, less hierarchical cultures) or are ostracized/singled out for behavioral differences. Like many, many dispositions, disorders, defects, etc, it's just a quirk in a person's phenotype.

[@worldgonemad5866]

I've known several orphaned people and none of them were raised by a gay uncle.

[@worldgonemad5866]

@@Max-bm5rs about as compelling as the claim that gay and trans people take care of orphaned youth.

[@aaronsaunders6974]

what a great and challenging argy bargy.

[@liranpiade4499]

I love the Bonobos thingy - both lots of lesbian sex, AND that's how they keep their society safe

[@LadyOfTheEdits]

Perfection.

[@meloveAi]

That barnacle fact at the end is kinda horrifying. Nature, you scary!

[@vertigo4236]

Remember, everything is "fine tuned" by a "loving" creator...

[@dimitrioskalfakis]

katy is pretty, smart and educated with regards to the discussed issues.

[@Vic2point0]

Transgenderism remains a wholly incoherent worldview. One in which people confuse gender itself with gender roles and norms (or appeal to circular reasoning). One in which they insist others are incorrect in using terms like "man" or "woman" while being unable to provide objective, workable definitions for these terms themselves. And one in which they often equate disagreement with hate, which is not only illogical but dangerous.

[@blaireofhylia1572]

I'm interested to hear this but I didn't think every festure of humans needed a "reason" or benefit. Sometimes it's just an error in our program

[@JayOne718]

It's not an error unless it has a reason. It's sjust a difference.

[@letsgetreal6402]

I'm sure I'll be taken the wrong way, but it is what it is.... We aren't ants, meerkats,frogs, or clownfish. No this isn't a statement on my thoughts on trans people. But using other species as examples for human behavior stopped being valid a long time ago. Any time someone with 'the wrong opinions' uses other species as example it's called out immediately as a fallacy since we are not them. I stopped watching at 7:26 because it's clear we are talking about every species except ours. I wanted to hear the evolutionary reasons for trans gender humans, not why clownfish naturally change sex entirely or meerkat breeding hierarchy. It almost sounds like you're saying we should all be drones and leave the breeding to an elite couple lol I know that's not the message, but it can definitely be taken that way.

[@letsgetreal6402]

@@goosergone143 I didn't miss the point at all. I made it pretty clear I came to hear about why evolution would push us toward transgender as humans and saw that's not what this discussion was. My point about us vs other animals in the animal kingdom still stand. Nature often eats it's babies too. She discussed (from what I saw before clicking away) creatures who don't have genders, creatures who don't change gender and merely have a dominant breeding pair, creatures who change SEX not gender..... None of these things are transgender. Not if gender is to be defined as something separate from sex.

[@kieranpriest9609]

I love how that was handled. However, the caller seems to be coming from the misunderstanding that evolution is planned and perfectly executed, leading to the perfect reproductive machines. Trans people can reproduce. The reality is, reproduction is like anything in evolution. It’s a chuck everything at the wall and see what sticks kind of deal. It’s not a straight line either, as something look like they are all good but something silly like a genetic inner ear problem stopped them from hunting and they were surfaced by another off shoot who didn’t get dizzy every 5 steps Then, at some point, there was a potential line that was developing a cloaca or something like but that was too inefficient in mammals and off they die. There may have been a line of perfect beings, with the potential to be the ideal humans. Unfortunately, they didn’t have a sex drive so breeding became zero. They all died Anyway, being cis or trans isn’t part of an evolutionary advantage. Humans evolved to use our brains more than anything. If your argument hinges on assumed logic then it will fail.

[@Meauxluv]

So what's the purpose of trans people? Because the life forms you described do it for a reason.

[@acspicer]

Why does their gender identity need a reason?

[@Meauxluv]

@@acspicer do you always answer questions with questions. Comes off as disingenuous. I'm not trying to fight.

[@acspicer]

@@Meauxluv Only if the person I’m talking to keeps dodging the question.

[@Meauxluv]

@@acspicer so you don't have an answer.

[@acspicer]

@@Meauxluv It’s hard to have an answer to an irrelevant question.

[@showcase0525]

There seems to be strong augments on non-monogamy and non traditional sexual orientations in the earlier part of the call. Also in the later half, a sex and behavioral change due to factors outside of their control and choice. A person on the other side of that call may point that out as less than convincing reasons for the evolutionary reason for human transgender people.

[@mrfabulous4640]

Do you have an evolutionary “just so story” for adults attracted to pre-pubescent children, adults attracted to animals, adults attracted to inanimate objects, people who think they are animals trapped in human bodies, people who think they are aliens trapped in human bodies, anorexics who think they are obese when they are morbidly under weight, etc. And even if you do, do you think this now means those things are moral? This whole thing is a joke. Anyone can give a just-so-story, it is not evidence for anything unless you prove it fits the evidence better than other models. As atheist professor in philosophy, Thomas Nagel, states (paraphrased): these evolutionary just-so-stories explain everything and anything; if something is X there is an evolutionary just-so-story unless it is ~X, then there is an evolutionary just-so-story to explain it as ~X. A theory that can explain anything and everything after the fact (rather than having predictive power) is useless in explanatory power. How about we simply just look at the issue as mental confusion: the same way we do with anorexics who’s beliefs about their being don’t match reality? We can have an evolutionary story how beings form false beliefs about themselves. We can have evolutionary stories why some being are child-fiddlers; it does not mean it is moral and society should accept the insanity and immorality of it.

[@acspicer]

How about if we evaluate each of those examples in regard to whether they harm well-being instead of your dubious definition of “moral”? Are you seriously trying to say that evolution has no predictive power?

[@mrfabulous4640]

@@acspicer I am saying none of what the hosts said is based on predictive power. I would also say that giving an evolutionary explanation of how you came to be the way you are does not by itself give you moral justification, show that your position is not perverted and show that you are sane. I could show some animals eat their young, does not mean I accept it as moral for a human to do it. Any immoral position and perverted position will have to be explained in light of a neo-darwinistic paradigm if you hold to that position. I also find it ironic that Matt D. claims to be a skeptic and will not believe there is a God because someone experienced Him but will believe it is possible for a female to be trapped in a male body because someone tells him that is their experience. It seems like a double standard for his epistemic criteria. I see, homosexuality for example, as an unnatural attraction and immoral to act upon; the same way I see people attraction to children, attraction to animals and attraction to inanimate objects as unnatural and immoral to act upon.

[@acspicer]

@@mrfabulous4640 immoral according to who? And what’s your definition of “perverted”

[@mrfabulous4640]

@@acspicer Hang on, let me go a bit more fundamental to the issue here. Are you claiming the is no actual thing as morality and perversion?

[@acspicer]

@@mrfabulous4640 nope, and I literally asked you for your definition of perversion.