Ultimate Bitcoin Showdown: Schiff vs. Voorhees

The Peter Schiff Show (12/2/2013)
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[@thanasispanification]

Listening to this 6 years later is pure fun...

[@mikeliterus1628]

10 years later..even funnier!! hahahah peter = rekt

[@brianc9036]

@@mikeliterus1628 Bwahaha funnier even now

[@chrismacintosh6787]

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

[@libertarian_ramblings]

I'm optimistic about BC, but I really value Peter's skepticism. Listen people: skepticism is a good thing. The more invested you are in BC the more you should be immersing yourself in the analyses of intelligent skeptics.

[@TheSkypeGirls]

As a Bitcoin developer, I'm 100% invested in Bitcoin and I don't feel obligated to immerse myself into skepticism or any sort of analysis, because I've read the code, there's no vulnerabilities, I'm 100% sure how Bitcoin works, and I'm 100% sure that its algorithm won't change even in 100 years. So this sounds a little BS to me how everyone's crazy about all this stuff, isn't it easier just to trust? Yeah I know this is the channel about investment, but after you're working 12 hours everyday for Bitcoin, doesn't it automatically should mean that I have right to ignore its price? Since I'm a full-time Bitcoin developer (and many I know many others like me - and even more: in Russia a lots of people becoming a developers just because of Bitcoin), so I can afford being ignorant about USD price and our national currency's price. Skepticism is a good thing for such not stable systems like paper / other commodities, not for cryptocurrency.

[@TheSkypeGirls]

he's not even trying to listen.

[@GabeHiggins]

***** He doesn't understand how bitcoin works? I'm sorry, are you a programmer? Did you read the code? Did you even read the Bitcoin whitepaper? Here -> bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

[@GabeHiggins]

***** Well, if he is a bitcoin core developer, then he has to understand how the protocol works on a highly technical level, because that's precisely what being such entails. Judging by your responses, I'm more inclined to doubt you understand how bitcoin works.

[@libertarian_ramblings]

If you inherited a 10 million Yen, and were weighing up the pros and cons of investing in Bitcoin, you might be more open to hearing what skeptics like Peter have to say.

[@MenChooseSlavesObey]

I think Peter had his mind made up he was just going to berate Erik in hopes to bolster his own business of selling precious metals,I have no doubt that Peter was well aware how easy it is to drown someone out over a digital network.

[@fredflintstone8048]

Schiff doesn't seem to get it. I admire Voorhees patience with him.

[@GabeHiggins]

***** It's not possible for bitcoin to be a Ponzi scheme. Your statement leads me to believe that you either don't really understand bitcoin and how it works, or you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is. If you properly understood either, you could not make that claim. There is no Ponzi at the top of bitcoin. And the 'scheme' is a technology based digital asset that can't be manipulated, controlled, shut down, blacked out, stamped out... kinda like the internet itself. If the internet is a Ponzi scheme for information, then bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme for digital assets.

[@GabeHiggins]

***** Bitcoins are not worthless, they're trading at 250USD/bitcoin on the market now. They're not only traded for cash, you can actually pay for goods and services with them. You're missing the same point Peter is missing, bitcoin is NOT JUST A CURRENCY. it's a novel solution to a long standing computer science problem, namely the Byzantine Generals Problem. This is solved through the invention of the blockchain to which bitcoin is the fuel... it's first application, but there are many more applications, thus making the system (and the fuel that runs the system) valuable in a digital world.

[@fredflintstone8048]

***** Bit coin can be played as a ponzi scheme in the same way any currency can, and many are and have been through history. They all fail eventually for the same reason. Any currency is backed by the volume of it's use in the public market place, not by any gold or other commodity that would back it up. American currency is not backed by gold. The problem with most currencies is that certain greedy parties are the ones that control it, not the public. If they want to steal from the currency system to line their pockets all they have to do is print a lot of the currency. In the case of most of the money in the US dollar it's on paper and not printed cash. I'm sure you guys are familiar with fractional reserve banking and how volatile that is. Well, that's the currency system in the US, and pretty much similar to others. The beauty of bitcoin is that it's a currency system that cannot be controlled by a single corrupt group like the federal reserve for example. So if bitcoin is a ponzi scheme, which I don't believe it is, then the currency in your pocket is subject to the same thing. As Gabe said, and I tend to agree. You don't understand bitcoin, currencies, or what ponzi schemes are. Bitcoin is backed by goods and service providers so it's value is not merely in it's currenty cash trading value. As long as at least one vendor exchanges bitcoin for a good or service, bitcoin is worth more than what it can be sold for like a stock for example. Pretty much all currencies can be bought and sold with other currencies. In conclusion I would say that in many ways bitcoin is just like other currencies except in how it's value is controlled. It's controlled by the community of bitcoin users and not a single financial, or governmental entity that can decide to rob the system blind. Does it have a volatile aspect? Certainly, but only in the same way that currencies in general are volatile in how the public uses them.

[@GabeHiggins]

***** "They're only worth something because one sucker wants to trade money with some other loser who wants money. " Yes, commodities are traded with each other constantly on markets based on supply and demand, very good... that's precisely where value is derived. Not sure what your point is there? "You just give bitcoins to a money who gives cash to the people who are going to give you a product. Cash it still king here. Bitcoin is just riding on those coattails. " Bitcoin actually functions like digital cash... soo.... yeah. "It is not a novel solution to anything." It actually is though. See, this is why over $600 Million in capital have been invested in the last 3 years into using this technology in building various consumer services worldwide by some of the most innovative and forward thinking investors on the planet (Marc Andreeseen, Richard Branson, Elon Musk ect.). "It is a wasteful, unnecessary step in trade. " This is false, it's a known fact that transacting in bitcoin is much more efficient then any current financial institution system. This is why hedge funds on wall street and banking institutions are looking into adopting blockchain technology. Because, like I said, it does actually solve real problems. "why are wasteful, inefficient steps in trade typically created? That's right... as a part of a scheme." Try this, replace 'bitcoin' with 'gold'... is buying gold a ponzi scheme too? "What's this I hear about the network creating two simultaneous blockchains?" There are now hundreds of blockchains/cryptocurrencies that have been derived based off Bitcoin's original design with modifications. "You sure no one can control this? You sure that your faith isn't a bit misplaced here?" Yes. Again, you have to understand how it works and how it was designed to know this. It's a decentralized network running a distributed protocol. Similar to Bittorrent, except with monetary assets. " you guys are like a cult. It's play money, man. That's it." Ok, then chill out and let me play with magic internet money then :)

[@fredflintstone8048]

Some seem to put too much faith in the popular currency thinking it's really solid. That's fine. Your attitude however mistaken helps add to the value and I appreciate that because I have money in the bank and I want it to retain it's value at least to some degree given that inflation eats at it's value constantly. I recommend a person take a look at fractional reserve banking if they haven't already. The reality is that any currency used for exchange for goods and services be it cash or bitcoin is backed more by trust than anything real. It's a sort of trust fund because people use it for exchange, not just of the currency like a stock, but you can buy things with it. When currencies and thus economies crash, a wheelbarrow full of cash won't buy you a loaf of bread. Yes, Gold is real. I know people who collect gold coins so that they have a small amount of gold to exchange for food if and when the currency collapses.

[@MattsYoutubeChannel]

This was undoubtedly one of the better (less shout driven) discussions I've heard on the show, except for a little bit towards the end. Mr. Voorhees played it smart by advocating the transactional capabilities of the bitcoin network as its strongest selling point, not its strength against other currencies (he admitted bitcoin's volatility multiple times in no uncertain terms). Its good to hear an honest discussion.

[@ericdescourtis6242]

Mr Schiff, the main problem with backing a currency with gold is that you must trust the holder of that gold. That's why backing it with just numbers crypto is better. Also government will have problem wiping out Bitcoin because a large number of them exist as as paper wallets.

[@bighands69]

Peters point is that it does not have a physical property like gold or bananas. It is really a conceptual system of exchange.

[@ericdescourtis6242]

I agree with this point of view.

[@krillin876]

Wow, this is a Schiff Show first, this is such a calm exchange!! No Yelling!

[@FrancoisHarris]

10yrs later, and Peter is still not getting it, lol

[@brianc9036]

100%

[@Zaphod23]

I can't understand why Schiff can't understand the value proposition. It's so frustrating to watch.

[@BOZ_11]

Jeremy He keeps going on about fucking gold backing. He. does. not. get. it.

[@mmarchfeld]

boz Look at the bitcoin chart www.quandl.com/BITCOIN/MTGOXUSD-Bitcoin-Markets-mtgoxUSD you know what he is about. What you say if you bought bitcoin for $1000 a month ago and now is $300. Why does anyone from bitcoin fun club thinks that europe central bank, Russia central bank or Japan's bank and they governments will happily let people use bitcoins for transaction to create even bigger tax losses. You will be left with exchange in Zimbabwe for Zimbabwean dollar. Other things, go to police to file report that bitcoins were stolen from your wallet. Good luck with this.

[@Zaphod23]

Milan Marchfeld Yes, it is generally understood now that bitcoin makes a bad currency. It behaves more like gold than a dollar. Despite this, many companies do take bitcoin for products and services. They charge tax on this, so the governments still gets their taxes. Like other commodities, bitcoin goes up and down with supply and demand and other forces. If a single popped bubble was a sign that the whole market was worthless, then everything in the world would be worthless.

[@richardminhle]

Backing BTC with Gold means destroying the very valuable feature of BTC which is Decentralisation.

[@francisguarderas]

I love peter he is awesome, but he will regret opposing bitcoin so stubbornly

[@davidturov5947]

Erick literally admitted that it CAN go to zero moron...or is one of the creators of bit coin dead wrong?

[@bendervelosoc.r.f8456]

yea, you were right.

[@juleseklund3899]

@@davidturov5947 no, he was just 100% upfront and honest ... something you never see in the media.

[@radicaIarchitect]

Wow 😮, wish I saw this video

[@PianoKeyzOfficial]

Love Schiff, but Erik won the argument and sold the network pretty well.

[@ChadMBear]

I think it was an interesting discussion of a complex and difficult issue. There's no reason to put it as someone winning and another losing; I don't think these men are opponents. I should add that I wonder how much value is in bitcoin without governmental control over the monetary system. Could anyone inform me about that element of the issue?

[@LeonWevans]

I don't know how you think he sold the network pretty well when he was basically saying that it's risker to buy 50$ of bitcoins back 4 years ago and get say 10000 coins than spending 50$ of bitcoin today and can only get 0.0001.

[@ericrosso4846]

Chad Merritt When was the last time you ordered 5 grams of crystalline Dimethyltriptomine from a web-site using Federal Reserve Notes? Try it sometime, then message me and tell me how many centuries until you are out of Federal "pound me in the ass" prison!

[@delatroy]

LeonEvans the conversation consisted of more than one point.

[@richardminhle]

LeonEvans it is on probability. 4 years ago BTC could have been a scam and u could lose your $50 instantly. Today it is recognised. Price is only one side or the coin. BTC price reflect demands and its growing marketcap reflects trust in the system. BTC price rise also tells how much USD lost its value comparing to BTC.

[@Ahrraminh]

Obviously putting in $1,000,000 is more risky than putting in $50... That's regardless of when you do it. However, putting in either sum now is less risky than it was in the early days.

[@iskdude57]

this is a stupid argument, schiff has no tangible argument in this debate. Putting a million dollars is inherently more risky regardless of what you put it in because a million dollars is a lot of money.

[@iskdude57]

actually risk and amount are the same thing, it's relatively subjective because it depends on how rich you are. 100k is a lot of money regardless. 5 and 10 dollars are both chump change to most americans. So you're comparing more money than I've ever made in my life to something I make in less than an hour. Either way schiff has no argument, that's why he's getting red in the face.

[@felixnewman2473]

It's right here that Peter lost he's followers 10's millions each and he's community 10's of billions.

[@TangoNevada]

Anyone that says "Another Better Bitcoin" can come along or there are many other coins and thinks that's a problem, doesn't understand Bitcoin.

[@bregjejabra25]

Everybody can copy the Bitcoin-code and starts it`s own coin, but nobody can copy Bitcoin`s current network.

[@bahamabrz]

Speaking from the perspective of a software engineer with years of experience in the internet security space, I struggle mightily with the BitCoin concept for countless reasons. BitCoins may be rare, but they are no more a store of value than a paper US dollar. The technology may be interesting, but the value of a BitCoin is still based upon "faith" alone.

[@nunrg187]

Exactly! So Bitcoin will be at least as valuable as the US Dollar. I'll bet more.

[@MichaelDanko]

Forest B. Well, the amount of dollars divided by bitcoins at least. If you consider gold to be the "real" standard we can say that 1BTC is almost worth an ouce of gold. The value lies in the it's ability to send funds across the world in seconds without half a dozen banks in the middle.....better things will come down the road.

[@watcher8o]

Forest B. That is a terrible argument for Bitcoin. lol

[@RyanFishman]

Peter moved from calling it a Ponzi scheme, to a pyramid scheme to now a speculative bubble. I guess he is slowly warming up to bitcoin. Slowly..........

[@mattmcginley7]

Up 1100% since. Peter still talking how it's down from its all time high and claiming he's right lmfao. Slowly is right

[@meetmikee]

Watching this video is like me trying to teach my grandma how to use a smartphone.

[@BenCooke419]

When it comes to finances ALWAYS LISTEN TO THE JEW. Peter knows his shit. Peter needs to make the EuroPacific Coin.

[@be4unvme]

i think you mean law

[@TheJudoJoker]

That is too good lol

[@channel1_channel]

Peter knowledge of Bitcoin always improves a little each time I see him talk about it. The rich bankers have the lions share of gold now. Many people have no gold. Approximately 50% of people on the planet don't live in houses with plumbing. If everyone tries to get gold, only a relative few have it.

[@fleetcenturion]

Um... OK. So go buy some, and give it to the poor. Maybe you should join the Peace Corps and install some plumbing. Get on that, because it looks to me like you're way behind schedule. Are you implying Bitcoin is superior, where there is a limited supply, AND it requires internet access? If you actually care about the poor, do you have a remedy for their situation that doesn't involve confiscating other peoples' wealth at gunpoint?

[@channel1_channel]

fleetcenturion Many people in western societies don't have gold, especially bullion products. Peter Schiff has a lot of gold I bet, much more than I've got, Lol. I'm powerless in regards to buying up and distributing meaningful quantities of gold to the people on the planet who have none. My contributions to society comes via other means. Means that accord with my personal skill set.

[@fleetcenturion]

halfasheep Peter buys and sells gold for a living. If he didn't have a lot of it, that would defeat the purpose. The theory that there is not enough precious metal is a fallacy. A currency backed by something is far better than one backed by nothing. Fiat currency has crippled the poor more than anything else, making it impossible for them to build up capital, as inflation destroys any savings they acquire. And I'm sure you "contribute" so much to society with that degree in liberal arts, or sociology, or art history, or whatever... But more to my last point: If you would use state violence to force others to do what you personally consider a waste of time, that makes you the worst kind of thief and parasite. At least a mugger wouldn't have the nerve to smile at me as he insisted I "spread the wealth around".

[@andrejzerovc8306]

Bankers have the gold. Give people an ILUSION of gold and then fuck them up at will. Maybe people should buy GOLD instead of Bitcoin. Everybody wants to get rich quickly, that's it!

[@islandbee]

fleetcenturion Many supporters of Bitcoin are actually precious metals people, Austraian economists, and brilliant computer scientists and engineers. The computer scientiest and engineers that developed the internet and the KZbin channel that you benefit from! With a Bitcoin protocol, you are free to develop any currency you like.

[@JohnnytNatural]

I hate bitcoin because I knew about it when it was a dollar and now I'm kicking myself because I'm such an idiot

[@BenEven23]

Same here dude... same here

[@AlternativeDesign100]

I was told about it back then too, and at that cost I too should have just bought a few "for a laugh" just because I could!! The loss would have been the same as a burger and a coke... would have felt no pain. My my.. like looking at your lottery ticket already filled out but never purchased, and your damn numbers came up, all of them! I really feel sick at the thought.

[@SocialmotionMedia]

As the saying goes...you now know. Yes, it's currently @ an ATH but what if it doubles in value by Spring '18? So -- Is it too late to invest w/ that knowledge now? Ummm....nope! So fucking invest already dude!

[@salaciousBastard]

You ain't never lied.

[@mikeliterus1628]

10 years later bro...how you feelin now? BTC 70K + ... hahaha

[@MichaelDanko]

I like Schiff and I think he economics make sense but he obviously does not understand the bitcoin network and the value added to the system by various contributors. We are definately still in an early adoption phase. Dare I say even possibly y2k bubble early.....

[@TheAdamAdy]

You were right

[@593iwalkalone]

One is currency (bitcoin) the other is money (PMs), something has to be physical to be money. Lots of currencies in the world today but I would argue the only form of "money" that is essentially accepted worldwide is gold.

[@TheSkypeGirls]

Peter, you're not even trying to listen.

[@gregcollins3404]

3 purposes of money: 1) a medium of exchange 2) a measure of value 3) a store of value. Bit coin is a great medium of exchange but bad at #2 and #3. This makes it an ok currency to avoid tracking transactions perhaps, but precious metals, while not as good perhaps for #1, is way better at #2 and #3.

[@davematherly]

for today. My crystal ball is on the blink currently, but obviously, it is here to stay in some form or another. My bet is that the new Quark will take over, better security, far easier to 'mine' (meaning it'll always be better distributed), and after only a few months available, it is the 3rd most mined and held cryptocoin out of 94 of them. It was developed by many of the same developers, so the psychological perception of btc equality is pretty high. Go QRK!

[@seanmacleod116]

Greg Collins then came Bitcoin Cash.

[@thegreatlordkaiser]

this is truly an ultimate showdown. As a long time supporter of Schiff, i am impressed Voorhees represented so well.

[@frogger2513]

This is how adults debate they both believe in their position but not so much they are not seeking truth

[@ekhoury1000]

schiffs argument can be basically summed up: its new and different and I don't understand it - so I don't like it

[@tommyseacat3580]

I have gold/silver and bitcoins. I like them all. Question. If I want to buy someones self-published book online how do I buy that with gold? I'll show you how I can buy that with bitcoins.

[@0calvin]

Hey Peter, Gold just made a $40 swing today. I suppose that means it is too volatile to be used as money (or a backing thereof). I mean, by the time I made a money transfer to someone in a gold-backed e-coin, the price might have changed dramatically. Perhaps by your logic we should just stick with the good old solid dollar. OK, yes, I am being sarcastic but it does bear thought, no?

[@juleseklund3899]

Schiff says, "There's other currencies on other networks and you never know one day these currencies networks could merge" ... Lightbulb goes off for Voorhees and he makes shapeshift

[@adiintel1]

watching this from 10 years on and peter can't accept the fact btc is a new form of hard money.

[@TromboneMusicMS]

By definition, BTC can’t be hard money lol

[@adiintel1]

@@TromboneMusicMS sound*

[@TromboneMusicMS]

@@adiintel1 I don’t think BTC is sound money, though. BTC uses SHA-256, which was developed by Glenn M. Lilly and patented by the United States’ NSA on March 5th, 2001. The NSA was also one of the first organizations to describe a Bitcoin-like system in a 1996 paper titled “How To Make A Mint: The Cryptography Of Anonymous Electronic Cash.” Satoshi Nakamoto” means “central intelligence” in Japanese, also, which makes you think… 😱 BTC, as for me, is just a way for the government to condition us with digital currencies, so they can seamlessly roll out their CBDC

[@requiemdexter]

Here's a question on the topic of 'zero barriers to entry & competition'. What happens to the value of Bitcoins when 25, 50, or even 100 other networks are developed to the level & sophistication that Bitcoin is at right now? At the moment there is essentially zero competition because of Bitcoin being first to the party.

[@martintheguitarist]

The same thing that happened to myspace.

[@requiemdexter]

Martin the Guitarist I'm kind of surprised he didn't ask it.

[@Jack9C]

Martin the Guitarist Myspace? You mean geocities? or AOL communities? or BBSs?

[@nominalegg5865]

Jack Crow Lycos, AltaVista, and my favorite- SavvySearch

[@MichaelDanko]

So in essence we are saying that the best crypto coin will win in the end? There 'may' be a few alternates? Facebook/Google+/??, Google Search/Yahoo/Bing/DuckDuckGo, etc. etc.

[@houndogsteve]

Trouble is that Schiff (Apart from the constant interruptions) is that all he sees is the investment aspect and because the integrity of Bitcoin is the security of the algorithm itself and it`s use as a transaction tool inhibits investment to speculate......Peter Schiff contributes to the problem of dollar and gold instability by wanting a return that is not inherent but must be extracted from someone elses wealth!

[@francisguarderas]

Gold for value storage, bitcoins for value exchange/transactions.... It's that simple

[@JantetDevlinTshirt]

What about if someone creates a Bitcoin bank? Loaning Bitcoins and having only 10% reserves? Than you can inflate Bitcoins as much as you want. And we would be at the beginning of the problem again.

[@MichaelDanko]

Good luck getting people to deposit in your bank, especially with today's ability to withdraw in milliseconds. No more running down to the bank with the panicked crowd.

[@infinummjb]

Michael Danko No one would really know or even care after some time. This is how the current banking system became what it is. First it was 100% backing, then 99%, 98%... fast forward a few decades and there is hardly any backing left. 'BTC coupons' emitted by major exchanges ring a bell?

[@seanmacleod116]

Vit Raiser Bitmex does this. They offer 100x margin. Of course, they have the thickest order books in the world.

[@DCUPtoejuice]

Schiff made so many pitiful arguments it is embarrassing to think I listened to him so many times.

[@martinrheaume5393]

Nice to see Peter debate with someone who actually speaks his language. Normally, he needs to spend 90 percent of time battling through the false assumptions of whoever he's debating. Although, he does still interrupt too much.

[@MarkReimer1]

Great discussion. Big thanks to both of you for adding value to the overall education of currency.

[@Miasmark]

I still think peter keeps missing the whole "decentralized" bit. To get a cryptocurrency backed by something, you have to have a centralized store of the stuff and that kind of defeats the point. unless you can come up with some way for me to have gold stored myself and get the currency and whoever gets it can come and redeem at my doorstep. I really don't see that happening, though. edit: a second point that keeps getting missed is bitpay, which allows businesses that don't want to touch bitcoins, give the option and get paid in dollars, and it is higher than some of the exchanges exchange rates(due to the BBB exchange list going over multiple exchanges and getting the best price).

[@davematherly]

exactly, he also says you can't use them for anything. He didn't say that today, because he's learned at least he's wrong about that much of it.

[@A_friend_of_Aristotle]

Peter sees money in much the same way most objective, rational economists do: money must represent something...as in someTHING. A think, a physical thing that can be touched, heard, tasted, smelled and seen. Money must be useful in two ways: as a unit of account and as as store of value. The second is the THING part. It has to exist as a reality in limited quantity and it must be impossible to duplicate. What the US currently uses as money is a unit of account, but not a store of value and in that way is no different than Bitcoin. Both can be created with little effort or cost in unlimited quantity. That by definition makes it a lousy store of value. So in the end Bitcoin will meet the same fate as all fiat currencies (including the US Dollar, eventually): extinction.

[@Miasmark]

Octavian Mercurus you missed a couple of things, while as peter says its possible to make infinite alt coins, there is a limit on bit coins and alt coins are not bit coins. The whole infastructure along with the public ledger is to ensure frauduelent things such as double-spends, other miners doing bad things etc do not happen. There is a limit imposed on the system of 21 million bitcoin. Not to mention if it gives Paul Krugman indigestion it can't be all bad.

[@freedommmc]

I think Voorhees makes an excellent point best point I've heard yet for bitcoin. It's not just a "currency" it's a payment network.

[@Spardeous]

Peter makes completely valid points. There's no way to guarantee that Bitcoin ends up the 'de-facto' crypto-currency just as how(as some of the previous posters have pointed out) BBS, Lycos, Myspace, all seemed like 'technologies of the future' at the time. At the end of the day, it's about faith and Voorhees has faith in Bitcoin. In other words, the biggest lynchpin for Bitcoin is what created it - the ingenuity of the individual. It's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness. Never underestimate this.

[@Spardeous]

I think the world is better off with Bitcoins than they are with US dollars, though.

[@ericwawrzyniak6406]

Financial services workers should be taking the bitcoin threat seriously. Peter wants his gold to back bitcoin but unfortunately for Peter, if a fiat currency like the dollar can live on fractional reserve banking without the backing of gold then why would a finite digital currency, perfectly formed for transacting commerce and taxation, require the shiny element?

[@GlanderBrondurg]

Peter Schiff is very spot on with many of his questions. I especially agree with his arguments about alternatives to Bitcoin among crypto currencies. Bitcoin isn't nearly so secure as Erik Voorhees is claiming, and there are alternative currencies which work much better on some key areas.

[@nunrg187]

The Bitcoin network is already in place. Most people only buy or mine the other crypto coins to trade them for Bitcoins.

[@GlanderBrondurg]

There are some significant shortcomings to Bitcoin, and there definitely are some alternative ideas that could be implemented with crypto currencies which Bitcoin has not done. Indeed, Satoshi deliberately threw some code into the Bitcoin protocol that prevented some of those more innovative ideas from being implemented within the standard Bitcoin protocol.... something I objected to strongly at the time but still has not been removed. It certainly is possible for another currency to overtake Bitcoin itself, but it would need to have a "killer app" or some application that Bitcoin itself simply can't do. A pure duplication of Bitcoin on another chain isn't enough. Perhaps a niche audience or doing something decidedly different that encourages more widespread adoption, but it would have to do something very different.

[@hankdaniels7384]

Five years later and it’s still here. Still #1 in market cap. It still may hold that position in another 5.

[@mikeliterus1628]

10 years later and YOU are SO wrong. BTC most secure never hacked network in the history of the world..

[@GlanderBrondurg]

@@mikeliterus1628 Nice propaganda but not true. Bitcoin has been hacked at least to trace usage and obtain knowledge of its users and it is hardly the most secure protocol. The hash algorithm has withstood cryptographic attacks, but it isn't even unique to Bitcoin. In terms of damage to the global environment, I think Bitcoin is one of the worst non-essential uses of energy on the planet right now. That in particular is why I stopped using it.

[@MichaelBeauchamp]

I think Peter makes some great points and Eric does as well. I do not agree with some of the comments that Peter owned the debate. Peter acts like there is no "cost" in currency when complaining that BitCoin has a cost. What is inflation if not cost? Another mistake that Peter makes is understanding "fluctuation" of gold prices. Gold does not change in price as shown by Murray Rothbard. Gold is always at the same value (give or take +/- 1%) it is the fiat currency of all nations that is moving. I am currently in research mode with BitCoin so I have no position on the matter, but ALL government controlled money is a bad thing.

[@BenjaminHedden]

Maybe it is my natural inclination toward, rather than away from, new technology, but this video makes me want to start using BTC. Given that reaction, I too have to disagree with those who say Schiff "wiped the floor," or dominated this discussion. Kudos to him, however, for giving his opponent (I guess? I'm not sure if this was meant to be adversarial) time to fully articulate his responses, regardless of whether they were listened to. I haven't popped my Bitcoin cherry, so I couldn't advocate either way on this, but I feel like Schiff failed to fully present his intellect here. He's obviously smart, and he knows more about currency markets than I do, but he skipped over some of Vorhees' points without seeming to listen, let alone consider or understand them. My impression is that he already understood the points, but has a dogmatic allegiance to gold and the almighty "intrinsic value" that feels threatened by crypto-currency, and was thus prepared to attack, regardless of how strong a point Vorhees made. In the end, Schiff failed to convince me that Vorhees was wrong about anything, and I don't see how anyone could argue that the BTC will become more volatile, rather than less, as more merchants and consumers adopt it; it seems to follow that the more people accept it, the more secure it becomes. As it is treated more like currency and less like a speculative investment, I expect it to behave accordingly. That was my take, but I'm not very familiar with Schiff, so maybe I misread him.

[@ilnezija]

gold is not a fiat curency,what are you talking about? Peter is right of course there is a fluctuation of gold price because its price is measured in fiat curences and also depends on the demand for metal including industrial use.How can you call "fiat curency" smth as tangible and valued as gold?????If tomorrow science would find a remedy for ,say,cancer and the major part of it would be gold,what would happen with the gold prices? Yet to see any use for a bitcoin....which is a strictly speaking typical fiat curency on its own,nothing supports it - all electricity and human working hours just pure waste and planet polunation

[@clemensgehrmann5933]

The world is changing. Gold and silver may have been the past, but they may not be the future, as their socalled "intrinsic value" is being eroded by nano-tech which is replacing their properties in useful applications. Soon, all they will be is "shiny things". Beside that, what Peter criticizes in Bitcoin equally applies to gold & silver. The values fluctuate wildly, and on top of that, there are even less places that will accept gold and silver as payment for goods and services, then there are for accepting Bitcoin.

[@iskdude57]

Clemens Gehrmann interesting about the nano-tech, I'll have to look that up thanks.

[@iskdude57]

of course it's volatile, it's a totally brand new technology!!!

[@heydadd]

Schiff's argument/question at 7:30 regarding payment is likewise applicable to the gold he sells. Who is going to sell something online for gold, or can you expect to purchase a car, land, or food for gold? Actually BIT is a better means of exchange especially for using with another person-business in another place.

[@MarketWizard546]

great video

[@irdial]

This is the first time I have seen Peter Shiff bested by an opponent. Absolutely unbelievable. Outclassed, out of his depth, out of his comfort zone. The world is changing!

[@kennyvii]

I love these gold bugs but they're losing this debate.

[@cramsa]

Over $10,000.... and gold is still under $1300/ounce.... Peter Shiff does not understand the issue. IMHO there is a place for both legitimate cryptos and PMs... PMs can be supressed by banks though via paper gold etc so you probably will not see the "real" suppressed price any time soon.

[@Snowjiujitsu]

Interesting discussion

[@clashy]

Hm, very interesting interview. I was expecting Peter to really get schooled by Erik, but I'd say it was the other way around in this debate. Fundamentals are fundamentals for a reason, Peter came out on top here.

[@weezohoolic7853]

Easy to win a debate when you do not let your guess finishing their anwser to the question he asked.

[@pdevine999]

Not really , Peter was too focused on the price rather than the product , wether bitcoins are worth 1 or 1 million doesnt take away from the fact is a de centralised currency , although if they added gold as a backing it would be harder to replicate and add intrinsic value.

[@911madeinamerica]

weezo hoolic vorhees had plenty of time to talk

[@weezohoolic7853]

Fack yo Couch it's not about the amount of the he had but more how he was able to finish his sentences.

[@wasabuful]

Boy Schiff is asking a lot of dumb "right now I can't buy Twinkies" questions for someone who is the world's premier promoter of "hold Gold for the future because right now it is misunderstood" :)

[@wasabuful]

***** You are a Currency Change Denier! :)

[@dumpsterplayer2700]

Gold has a history as a means of currency for thousands of years, while bitcoin doesn't, it's a 'given the past, what is the future' kind of thing for gold

[@wasabuful]

Warring God A hundred year fight between Central Banking and Gold has resulted in somewhat of an arrested development for Gold as currency *anchor* for FIAT. It will always have it's role as ultimate money I believe, but for practical purposes digital currency has been written on the wall since the 70's. As price goes, I believe Gold will rebalance with BitCoin longer term.

[@Tidoublemy]

Peter has a vested interest in gold as we all know but I still find Bitcoin compelling. It is quite complex and a very interesting topic. Thanks for the debate, Peter!

[@tmac9938]

fucking love this debate. both intelligent gentlemen.

[@chriswroads]

Internet stocks are going to be worth billions -1999 Internet money is going to worth billions -2013

[@davematherly]

sure the 'bubble' crashed, but Krugman was wrong. The websites were not a fad, and today have created an entire complimentary economy. Cryptocoins are exactly that, a complimentary monetary system.

[@vector65535]

Tulip bulbs are going to be worth billions - 1637

[@mikeross6422]

lol this was dec 2013, wonder what Schiff's opinion on bitcoin is now that paypal and microsoft just adopted it.

[@peterschiff]

My opinion has not changed. Given that bitcoins are trading below $280 today, down from over $1,000 when this interview was recorded, helps validate my argument. Certainly if you purchased bitcoins at the time of the interview you likely regret it, and if I convinced some people not to buy I did them a big favor. Merchants allow people to pay with bitcoins using services like bitpay is irrelevant to the viability of bitcoin as money. I allow customers of my gold company to pay with bitcoins using Bitpay, but that does not mean I believe its viable. However if Bitpay goes out of business, then i would never accept bitcoins directly. Neither would any of the other merchants currently "accepting" them.

[@CPLains]

Peter Schiff There are several different "BitGold" solutions out there that back crypto-IOUs with real Gold, like BitReserve and BitGold Inc., but one ingenious solution uses the "bitcoins" (which you can think of as shares in the network) as collateral in contracts for difference (all executed entirely on the network) which in combination with forced settlement around a (decentralized) price feed, enables bitassets that can be pegged to anything, such as Gold and USD; eliminating the volatility without creating counter-party risk or single points of failure. BitShares, the platform that enables this, have also developed user-issued-assets (IOUs) that allow the user to comply with KYC/AML. With this system you could for instance issue Schiff-Gold-IOUs on the network, and have a bitGold/Schiff-Gold market that exists entirely on the decentralized, global network. If you find this interesting, you might want to consider inviting Daniel Larimer to your show to get updates on these and other developments.

[@GabeHiggins]

Peter Schiff We know now that the inflated price at this time was due to a trading bot "Willy" in Mt.Gox. They were heavily manipulating the market. Since that went defunct, we've seen a correction, and also a stabilization of bitcoins price. I know several merchants that do accept bitcoin straight up and do not convert back to fiat.

[@GabeHiggins]

What deflating market are you talking about? And what makes you think the value of the dollar will rise? It may rise slightly compared to other fiats, but we're witnessing the dollar is loosing it's seat as the world's reserve currency. What happens when we have another financial crisis bigger then 2008? Also, I think the value of bitcoin isn't in it's app as a currency, it's is the infrastructure and utility of holding a digital asset possible Ala the blockchain. People often miss this because their so focused on the currency aspect, but bitcoin as a currency is just the first application of this advancement in computer science technology of achieving consensus over a distributed network, this hasn't been done before bitcoin, and it's a big deal.

[@GabeHiggins]

***** Personal insults don't change facts. It's clear you have little to no understanding of what I'm saying and you'd rather throw insults so I'm clearly wasting my time. Agree to disagree. The market will determine what is valuable in the end. Time will tell. And judging by whats happening in Greece & Argentina right now, you can witness exactly how bitcoin is valuable and will be used in time. It's just a matter of time. You'll see. Pay attention.

[@EDUARDOCAPANEMAecapanema]

Peter Schiff, here is the answer to something you are struggling with: Bitcoin has the intrinsic value of being better than anything that has intrinsic value. It sucks up the value of anything at all anywhere into its own. So, as long as anything has instrinsic value, such as gold, bitcoin will have intrinsic value sucked out of it. Remove VALUE from existence, then bitcoin will have no intrinsic value.

[@ChadMBear]

This video convinced me that philosophical change is more important in a society than gimmicky financial change. Free our society or become completely enslaved; bitcoin will not save us.

[@ericrosso4846]

It might not save your life, but in an era where your bank can simply freeze your funds, BTC does a hell of a lot more to save your ASSETS!

[@A_friend_of_Aristotle]

Absolutely, unequivocally true. A revolution in thinking will create change faster and with more permanence than a currency that is out of reach of government...if there is such a thing. If Bitcoin's value is avoiding confiscation by government wouldn't it be more effective to change the way government works? Seems to me a less risky path to take...

[@fleetcenturion]

Peter has been catching a lot of FLAK for this lately. I find it ridiculous that people who hold Bitcoins expect them to increase in value indefinitely, just like others once thought of real estate. I can't wait until Bitcoin tanks, and Peter is proven right yet again.

[@CraigRitchieZA]

It must be starting to feel like quite a long wait, huh?

[@BassicVIC]

Me too. Bitcoin is luring a lot of young uneducated people in financial matters who think that Bitcoin will ONLY go up. I even read some stories about young people who want to sue because they lost money on the recent Bitcoin loss in value. That’s how absurd many Bitcoin users are.

[@CraigRitchieZA]

Sounds like a problem with the people making the purchasing decision, and not a problem inherent to Bitcoin though, no?

[@pepsico815]

Erik destroyed Peter on this..

[@Econofresh]

Erik showed himself as a very emotional person who doesn't want to listen and just tell what he believes. They'll make fun of people like Erik pretty soon when these bitcoin type coins all fall to zero.

[@BassicVIC]

N M No, he did not

[@semenyvagina]

Peter, when you buy a bitcoin, you are transfering value to all those who have bitcoins. Specially to the early adopters who are also entrepeneaurs and programmers who are building the infrastructure. When you ask "who did put billions of dollars in that infraestructure?" i can answer you: We did. Also, i bought 300€ of bitcoins @~4€ each... now i am selling part of those bitcoins in order to create a bitcoin service. Also, there are 3 phases that need to be achieved in order to make bitcoin to be money: A) Reserve of value B) Medium of transfering value C) Count unit. (People pricing thins in bitcoin terms)

[@jangbaksa]

Shouldn't have sold...

[@LuisHernandez-ez3rx]

I've followed Peter for many years and I agree with him on his position on gold and silver, however, he is missing an important point here: Nothing, absolutely nothing, has intrinsic value itself. Things have intrinsic properties that make them more or less valuable to us. Having said this, Bitcoin, and some other cryptocurrencies, have some intrinsic properties that make them highly valuable. The most important of these properties, in my opinion, is the fact that people can skip the jaws of an ever growing State with tentacles spreading every where.

[@Gryphyn3]

Bitcoin sounds like a scam. You can't hold a bit coin in your hand, you can't go to a bank and covert it to cash, most places don't accept bitcoin. And the worst part is when you convert your hard earned cash to bitcoins, you cannot convert it back. So say if I make a fortune in bitcoin, I can't pay my mortgage with it. And everyone ignores the fact that who's bank account does your money go into when you convert your hard earned money into bitcoin? It just doesn't disappear. It has gone somewhere.

[@InfiniteNallidge]

you don't understand bitcoin! you can convert bitcoins at bitcoin atms. you are spreading misinfo!

[@Gryphyn3]

InfiniteNallidge What bitcoin ATMS? I've never seen one and this is the first time and your the first to mention one.

[@3rdAutisticCuckoo]

Gry Phyn There's one in Vancouver,and one in Stockholm, at least - and there are more to come.

[@dahvez]

It's perfectly reasonable to not understand it. It's not reasonable to call it a scam until you know what you are talking about. Do some research and then make a decision.

[@Gryphyn3]

dahvez I never said it was a scam. I said it sounds to me like a scam. Your right. I don't know everything about it, and I want to understand. However, everything I have read about, or heard so far, doesn't convince me to swing in the direction of bitcoin. When you pay good hard earned money into a system and cannot exchange it and hold that exchange in your hand, then all I see is air. Cash money I can hold in my hand and spend anywhere. With it I can buy anything. I can exchange it for other currencies. Bitcoin, you transfer money to it and yes you get bitcoin, but it is numbers on a computer. Who gets the hard earned cash you transferred, who's bank account did that go to? Unless I know that and so far no one has answered those questions, then it sounds like a scam. I used to play Diablo 3. In this game they have an online market where you can buy and sell items your character has found in the game by killing monsters etc. Blizzard got smart and started offering gold for sale. Not real gold, but in game gold. People spent real money on this "gold" and bought the items in this marketplace. In essence, they spent real money to exchange for a fake currency to buy things that don't exist. That's what bitcoin sounds like to me. With the exception that you can buy real goods and services with it. So again, I have to ask, who gets that hard earned cash people willingly transfer over to get "bitcoins". In the case of Diablo 3 it was Blizzard. Who gets it with Bitcoin?

[@Iprofessshirk]

Just got finished watching Peter get schooled. LOL...Peter, I'm a fan of your work, but you really humiliated yourself in this interview.

[@allenellsworth5799]

But Peter where do you go to get the gold? Can you transfer it as fast as a bit coin?

[@takethechessexam9214]

I think this whole debate can be brought into the correct perspective with only one key question, something like this: "As of todays date (03/30/2016) are there still any humans remaining on this planet, humans that are sick and tired of the constant government intervention (i.e. the Central Bank) that is attached to most of the currencies now in existence, and then realize and discover that Bitcoin does not involve a Central Bank, decide to use Bitcoin as an alternative currency?" This single question, when answered correctly (and I am sure that both participants in this video can correctly analyze this question properly) will settle the issue. There are probably half a zillion subsequent or peripheral questions that COULD be raised, but when all the smoke clears, this one question is all that is needed to see through the forest. And Peter, if you are reading this, I know this is your show, but please , please, please, try not to interrupt your guest so often. You did very well to state your case (which was fairly predictable), but be willing to let the man finish his sentences.

[@martintheguitarist]

The network effect argument he gives is completely false. There is no benefit in using a second email protocol but there is a lot of benefit in starting an alternative bitcoin network if you don't have any of the original bitcoins. Basically there is no incentive (ie profit) in starting another email and there are a lot of incentive in starting another bitcoin. So he doesn't understand bitcoin.

[@3rdAutisticCuckoo]

So what's the incentive for starting another cryptocurrency if it lacks the network effect of bitcoin?

[@martintheguitarist]

3rdAutisticCuckoo You pay a much lower price for the new bitcoins, ie you don't have to give a lot of your capital to the early adopters in order to join the network. All the people not owing bitcoins (most people) are better off with a new crypto currency.

[@3rdAutisticCuckoo]

You don't have to buy a whole bitcoin. And your altcoin isn't going to be much use if no-one deals in them.

[@jeffiek]

So go ahead and do it. It's easy, isn't it? Have fun convincing people to use your MartinCoins. It's you that doesn't understand the network effect.

[@martintheguitarist]

3rdAutisticCuckoo You have to look at your share of all outstanding bitcoins. If nobody is using my coins it won't be useful but there are plenty of people in the same situation who have the incentive to switch currencies.

[@voluntaryist5015]

Voorhees won hands down.

[@gmshadowtraders]

Can you buy options and futures on bitcoins? Until that happens bitcoin shall remain an illegitimate security though it could still be used as a means of payment I suppose. But for it to be a true currency it must be traded on an official exchange.

[@ColinBrazendale]

Very interesting showdown. Thanks for sharing.

[@qpae123]

Everything is cool, till a better hacker arives and steals /mines/ destroys everything from that Bitcoin system :)) I bet manny guys are working ( as a challenge ) on that right now lol.

[@nunrg187]

You have a better chance of hacking into Bank of America and stealing 10 Billion dollars than hacking into Bitcoin and stealing one.

[@qpae123]

Forest B. Yes, till someone proves the contrary :))

[@nunrg187]

IF Bitcoin will work Peter? HELLO, Bitcoin already IS WORKING!

[@dutchrjen]

Really how exactly is it working?

[@Hookooo]

Its quite disturbing that Petter argues that its a bad thing that there is competition in crypto currency.

[@tanakajohn23]

The answer from 10:55 says it all. Bit coin is expensive because of: 'current infrastructure is strong', 'been around a long time', 'current market demand isn't large enough for an alternative', 'larger number of current investors and users'. This is all the talk of a speculator and salesman who is living in the temporary luxury of a monopoly market.

[@farfiman]

Peter- LET THE GUESTS TALK!

[@farfiman]

***** True- but he brings guests so we can hear them - not only him. We know what he thinks about bitcoin- he should ask a queston and LISTEN to the answer and not just babble his side of it.

[@mickymtl]

Hey Peter, have the CEO of overstock.com come on your show and tell him that 'it doesn't work'

[@mikeliterus1628]

Hahaha hows that ceo doing now.. bet he broke af!

[@gems34]

Great debate, Peter had some good points, but ultimately Eric makes it clear that the BitCoin will prevail as it is extremely efficient and decentralized. Gold will always have nostalgic appeal, There will be space for both without having to link them. Ultimately efficiency and ability to store value is all that is important. Peter you argue that crashes are healthy, BitCoin is the only market where this happens and is only hindered by confidence. This keeps everything real at the end of the day that's what we need! I'm a great Peter fan but his gold bug-virus is clouding his judgement, I think he needs a crypto-virus to help liberate him ; )

[@brianrandall2295]

Has Peter no understanding of what network effect is and how difficult it is to get that started? The relationship between the bitcoin payment network and the fact that bitcoins are valued by users creates the symbiotic relationship that makes it all work. It's the chicken and egg paradox. Somehow bitcoin was able to get the egg without the chicken. It's the same reason why anyone and everyone can't start a social networking site and become billionaires. Is this really that difficult to understand? If Peter is so insistent that the gold backed digital currency is the answer why doesn't he start it?

[@AndreasEnk]

Peter Schiff is really embarrassing. He's throwing a bad light on all Austrians. Maybe he should go back reading about economics instead of pretending to know it all. Just because Keynesians are economically blind doesn't mean that we should stop thinking about economics.

[@TheSkypeGirls]

Peter Schiff = annoying orange.

[@dned23]

This Voorhees guy is CLUELESS.

[@WillChaseIV]

I'm curious why you think so. D Ned care to explain?

[@DerekMahar]

[26:48] While I think Eric made some great points during this discussion, I think it's unfortunate and frustrating for me that the point he makes about Bitcoin transaction fees being very low and much lower than credit card fees is no longer true four years later.

[@mmyr123]

Good discussion. Well done to both parties.

[@sovmindset]

Peter Schiff Gets owned... Straight up! Loosing respect for him.

[@PatrickSavalle]

Interesting discussion between a gold fan and a bitcoin expert. It's a pity that Peter Schiff likes to talk and interrupt so much. On the other hand it was the only thing keeping Voorhees from completely invalidating all of the arguments of Peter. I would have liked for ***** to be able to explain more about cryptocurrencies. We should have Max Keiser there too :P Peter looks at bitcoin just as an investment, while Erik correctly states it's a payment system that could potentially change the world. 'One of the most important inventions in the world'. Peter fails to see that the value of bitcoin is not threatened by other cryptocurrencies, it's about the network value that it is bitcoin, the infrastructure that is already there.

[@AndreasPetersson]

do you think anybody could finish a sentence if Schiff and Keiser are debating?

[@strych97]

Sure enough! It almost seems like Peter is taking Bitcoin as a personal slight against his views on gold and silver or something.

[@casparzwart1987]

Oh man! I absolutely love this guy Peter (one of the few clearvoyants on economic bubbles), but a currency backed by illions of calculations may be just too much for him.

[@PatrickSavalle]

I'm a fan of Peter too. But also of bitcoin :) To me bitcoin is the best invention ever after fire, the wheel and the internet itself. And after Ripple. The Ripple networks of trust are even more brilliant.

[@casparzwart1987]

Amazing times we live in.

[@KarmalBunta]

China and Germany already into bitcoin, so the risk is low now. German have banks accepting bitcoin.

[@bregjejabra25]

Maybe over time, it will become clearer that the amount of people believing that Bitcoin`s price will go to multiple Billions of US Dollars per coin is going up, and so they will HODL.

[@TheParadisecove]

...arguments are good on both sides,,,just shows the uncertainty governing the technology of the block chain .....and the substantial potential likewise..

[@larrybud]

Actually, there are multiple e-mail protocols. SMTP, Mapi, and POP.

[@sunshine_burn7208]

I love Schiff...really do but this time I'm with Vorhees. I might be misunderstanding the whole alt currency issue but I see it as not comparing it to the dollar and just measure it against itself considering it's limited and then what is risky is having people get on board with trusting bitcoin and using it. Wake up one day and lose trust in the dollar and accept something else. I might be naive but with it being limited it can reveal the illusion of scarcity bc after sometime everything will be dirt cheap with bitcoins....maybe to the point of everything being free...but idk. I have to keep figuring it out.

[@passantgardant]

It's not limited at all, as Peter pointed out many times. There are an indeterminate amount of "cryptocurrencies" which means no scarcity at all. Tomorrow gCoin could come out or iCoin, each with their own "artificial scarcity" within their own ecosystems which means nothing about the scarcity of currency altogether. Cash is fungible. If you can convert Bitcoins to Dollars to Litecoins, then all serve the same purpose of providing liquidity. As such, each becomes less valuable the more total units of all currencies are created because the human demand for liquidity is finite. That is why all fiat currencies are decreasing in value, excluding times of bubbles, independent of their relative exchange rates. And that's why sovereign issuers of fiat currencies will do everything in their power to prevent new ones from emerging that they don't control. The only real scarcity is physical scarcity, such as with precious metals, which can only be created in a supernova. Only such truly scarce elements can provide the role of real money.

[@davematherly]

Chris Roads (above) has it correct... "Internet stocks are going to be worth billions -1999 Internet money is going to worth billions -2013" Sure the dot com crash was a top that crashed, but total up the business done today after the long climb back... they were right. Internet is here to stay, regardless of what Krugman said about it being a fad. And cryptocoinage is also here to stay. may be bumpy for a while but it'll win out in the end.

[@sunshine_burn7208]

passantgardant ok, so I can sort of gather what you are saying, how because there are so many other alt currencies, Bitcoin really isn't limited. Could that also be interpreted as well since Gold isn't the only standard of money it isn't limited either? I understand Gold itself is b/c well, its physical and therefore we can physically see its limit but if Gold isn't the only precious metal or its not the only currency in existence, isn't that saying the same thing you are saying about alternative currencies in regards to it not being limited?

[@davematherly]

If all the Au stacked in underground vaults was out there with us to be divided into tiny disc shaped coins, and actually used in commerce, how much would an ozt be worth? What is there officially? 100,000 tons? Some say Yamashita's gold in the Philippines totaled 175,000 tons, alone. So we really only have estimates, but think... what if govt and bank mausoleum vaults were emptied and all the Au was moving about AS money; what would the value be compared to now? And what IS value? Eventually, 1/100,000th btc could be worth $1, or $1000... and most of the alt coins will fizzle out as curiosities, others might be specific trade credits for specific items. Some are claiming that as their purpose (e.g. "SexCoin") Who knows? The future promises to be a strange place! :)

[@sunshine_burn7208]

ah, ok - good point. ;)

[@Needlestitch]

The security of the network through secure decentralization remains the most important for bitcoin's (monetary) value, not its ferenginarian gold pressed latinum day price.

[@FreedomAtRisk]

peter does not understand the scope of the mining network and why this is a barrier to creating alternative cryptocurrency at this time

[@786sami786]

What would you say now?

[@BOZ_11]

Listening to Schiff talk about Bitcoin is like listening to my dad talk about Second Life. "I don't know how you can have money that has no value". He doesn't get that money does not need a precious metal backing it, and it's BEST that money is not intrinsically valuable beyond its use as MONEY. Its not supposed to be a commodity.

[@222222e]

Both gold and Bitcoin has their drawbacks. At least gold has a longer track record. Any gold purchased prior to 1934 can't be confiscated unless the Federal succeeds state law by declaring marshal law. In that case you can purchase a gift card and have the gold mailed to a PO box so there's no record of it being at your residence.

[@mrliberty1776ma]

If I was Erik I would change my name to " Jason "!!! LOL

[@anewascension]

also, any potential bitcoin (or other crypto) users concerned about a store of wealth, you can still maintain that with physical assets such as Gold and Silver. I would say that many of the BitCoin Pioneers are still stacking and likely backed up the truck when they took profits off the table

[@ladyluckradio305]

This seems like they where having two different discussions but at the end of the day it's about Fiat vs crypto, which is why I think military might will always be the determining factor as long as earth people fear death. This debate is so close to existentialism and that's what makes me thankful to have found this video. Happy Turkey Week!!

[@chrisr6950]

he just doesnt get it a gold backed cryptocurrency has the same problem any gold backed currency has ever had, you dont know what they actually have in their vault

[@johnyj7908]

Volatility: If you exchange it frequently, sometimes you gain, sometimes you lose, in the long run it does not make too much difference Clone: All the R&D resources and especially mining rigs and power consumption is dedicated to bitcoin, they can not be replicated, in the end it is the manufacturing cost of each coin decide its basic value Gold backing: Since gold can be mass produced depends on technology advance, it does not provide a fixed money supply thus less transparent than bitcoin. Actually without any backing totally removed the counter party risk, so anyone can back it as they like Government: Bitcoin might be useful to stimulate the economy and create new jobs, depends on how they support it Early adopter: The risk is almost the same any time when you start to invest in bitcoin, but if the reward halving happens slower then it will have less benefit for early adopters