Should The Terry Patch Include Balance Changes? And Fighting Games Aren't Intuitive!

[@vyris6727]

The meta feels fine at the moment. I don't think a balance patch is needed.

[@verbatim7508]

I think the meta is in the worst state it's ever been in and changes (specifically to Ken, Akuma, Ed, Zangief, and Bison) are desperately needed.

[@vyris6727]

@@verbatim7508 I don't see how this meta is worse than Luke, Ken, and JP.

[@han3wmanwukong125]

Ken player opinions

[@vyris6727]

@@han3wmanwukong125 Huh? I play Chun.

[@UltraChenTV]

Ken? The worst Shoto? Hahahaha! Honestly, outside of Ed, I don’t even have any of those characters in my top 3 (that being Rashid, Ed, and Guile, no order). I just think those characters are the most irritating to fight, in particular Zangief and Bison. So it’s hard to say they deserve nerfs when other characters are “better”. Better in quotes because it’s super hard to say… honestly everyone is so even, IMO. Right now the nerfs are all just about who is just annoying to fight like I said earlier. Any major nerf WILL instantly drop them down to the lower group. So we have to be careful.

[@Dabear3234]

my 2 cents about what to do with drive rush is remove the plus frames it grants on block, you shouldn't be punished for guessing right on a block

[@SomniaCE]

The idea about instinct not really working that well is honestly super well put and a really unique way of putting it. Fighting games have the issue of being less intuitive, having controls that in many games require more thought to perform basic functions in AND the genre suffers from having atrocious and borderline non-existent social systems online to actually foster connections and make the act of playing/grinding online less cold and isolating. Couple that with how fighting games are inherently harder to be social with amongst friend groups (if I have a couple casual friends who just wanna mash and I am remotely competent at the game there is literally nothing for us to do) and you have a recipe for disaster. Another way I'd put those first couple points is that the genre tends to have a higher skill floor than other games despite having a comparable ceiling. Picking up an FPS and just moving around and shooting is pretty simplistic even if for someone brand new to the genre there are growing pains. In MOBAs all you need to know is how to click for movement and how to press your ability buttons. For fighting games, just throwing a fireball feels about as hard as the basic controls of everything else on top of being less intuitive as a genre like you said. The simple act of feeling comfortable just controlling a character is rougher in fighting games than almost anything else. But honestly, even though the genre has tried so hard in many controversial ways to make the act of controlling characters and understanding basic concepts simpler/more intuitive, it won't move the needle too terribly much for player retention if the games have no social systems to keep players engaged. There's no voice chat, no meaningful ways to party up, clan systems are insultingly barebones to the point that they may as well not exist and since the games are mostly 1 on 1 affairs you aren't matching with strangers and can't play with friends unless you're beating their ass or getting your ass beat. The buy-in for fighting games is a harder ask than any other genre because even RTS - a genre notorious for also feeling very unintuitive and having complex controls and a high skill floor - at least tend to have co-op content and you can play co-op vs AI or team up online so people of varying skill levels can fuck around together. If you don't have a local scene to foster fun connections while you go 0-2 for weeks on end or a friend of a very similar skill level AND drive to continue growing with you it is damn near impossible to enjoy the act of becoming a beginner/intermediate in the genre. The only way around it is if you are personally just really into the genre for whatever reason and are comfortable with being embarrassingly bad for a pretty long time while you slowly grow on your own in the isolating online environment. I was lucky enough to match all of these at one point or another, but it is hard to be upset at anyone for not really caring much. And it is one reason that the Sajam Slam format is so good at taking people from all over the spectrum and throwing them into a fighting game. They have teammates and coaches to interact with socially as well as successful Twitch channels. That's all the social energy you need to make the act of diving into something for a couple weeks a very fun time and vastly increases the chances someone sticks around a bit.

[@SomniaCE]

It sucks when people try to center the conversation around "Fighting games are just as hard competitively as anything else" because it misses the entire point of the problem to make an argument no is actually making or cares about. I love jmcrofts but it does the genre no good to ignore just how I suspect this is why games like Smash and Tekken are so fondly remembered and why millennials who don't even care about fighting games that much tend to still have fond memories with stuff like Soul Calibur. Tekken and SC having more simplistic controls and 3D movement help them feel a little more intuitive and lower the skill floor for feeling competent enough to have a good time and immediately start to feel growth and Smash using a simplified control scheme with far fewer normal and special attacks than most other games on top of the crossover roster and bevy of mode modifiers help it be endlessly accessible (plus you have FFA and 2v2!!). Hell, true to your point about Smash 4's Smash Run mode, the idea of at least being able to do your own thing for a bit before engaging with the enemy makes even something like a MOBA or FPS feel so much better. It's another thing I never really considered! Even RTS have those first few minutes of calm while you read all of your tooltips and get a handle on controlling units and building things.

[@JoseL83]

Interesting talk. To me an example of really difficult game wonderfully made is Returnal. Yes it's too difficult especially to people who never have played the genre before, but it has so many aspects to it that make it memorable. And yes, human instincts do work there.

[@Pawsum1tiger]

Hopefully they don't touch Ed's level 2👀

[@GenderNeutch]

Hey James, this might be a bit off-topic, but I was wondering if you could address something in one of your future talks: I believe it was iDom (please correct me if I'm wrong there) who said in one of his videos that basically every character in SF6 has the same game plan - hit confirm into drive rush and pressure/mix-up game. This might be a bit simplified and I feel that works for a lot of characters in the game, but there are definitely nuances. Regardless, I think there's something to it, when even Gief has the possibility to rush in and do some whacky combos. So while I still like SF6 a lot and I feel the drive system is a smart way of giving everyone more or less the same tools, I was wondering if these kinds of universal system mechanics also make individual characters feel less unique in their respective playstyle. Because Guile is still a zoner, but he can rush in now and mix you up, Gief is still a grappler, but he can rush in now and combo you, and so on...

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah. I’ve touched on the subject quite a few times. I’ve said that your tier placement comes down to how well you play with the Dice Gauge. Song characters are TOO starved for Drive Meter. And not having crMK into Drive Rush is such a weakness. Only reason Zangief can fight passed that is that he’s sooooo good at draining Drive Gauge himself.

[@egrassa1480]

Whole community was hyped because of fake news about removing throw loops. Thats all you need to hear about current state of the game, or in general ever since betas

[@velorama-x]

interesting point about frustrating the flight-or-fight response. i think it's also important to enable learning by "simply" playing the game (learning by doing) which is also related to a learning curve that should be as linear as possible. good matchmaking, especially casual matchmaking, that gives players human opponents that are within their skill bracket. basically a casual queue with good sbmm, mechanics that don't snowball too much and a game presentation that makes it possible to figure out what you're doing wrong on the fly. most FGs that i've played fail at more than one of these points.

[@Ryan-jl1el]

hopefully there is a balance patch.. marisa needs one as well shes too honest... she really doesn't have any shenanigan moves like most of the other cast not too mention having no low forward, a DP, or fireball DR is just a must for the most part in this game.

[@DShawnPaytonOffiicial]

I'm a Zangief main, and I must say, the mirror match is the scariest for me. With the all the other characters, I have my tricks and ways to win, but against a competent Gief, I get destroyed immediately because they have the same tricks, and more, since I still struggle doing drive rush combos.

[@Vyo1983]

Really dissapointed about the balance. The game had the most unique and cool starting roster and what happened? Luke, Jamie, Kimberly, Manon, Lily, Marissa were supposed to be the next gen characters and all but Luke suck ass. Would love capcom to focus on their starting roster and not just to bring one top tier dlc char after the other.

[@UltraChenTV]

A lot of that really does come from the fact that they are new. The older characters have years and years of knowledge to base their balance off of. The new characters... I think they're scared a bit of accidentally making them too strong. They've really never done anything like this before (remember, Ibuki was the first character EVER in Street Fighter V to have their own resource meter in her Kunais. Compare that to SF6 where Kimberly, Manon, Jamie, and Lily ALL have their own unique resource to manage. They're a bit new at it. ^_^). So give them some time. They'll get buffed. Probably over-buffed by accident, then get toned down a bit, etc. I'm sure they'll get there eventually.

[@kartyae]

Getting better at fighting games for me has been the realization that its predicated on the exact same tenets that I had to get used to when I first started participating in combat sport. You have to go into the danger to be safe. In a real life fight, when you first start training you instinctually want to lean backward away from the danger which is the most dangerous position for your head to be in. You have to learn to keep head above shoulders, when you slip or move you move forward to shut down their space. You have to be comfortable with sitting right outside their range. Fighting games is the same thing. You have to sit right outside their range in the neutral, if you run or get scared you will be blown up.

[@itsmesteve1081]

Please give Ryu a buff. You don't see top tier characters asking for buffs. Buff the low and mid tiers c'mon capcom

[@UltraChenTV]

He just won UFA. Hahaha. Ryu is actually pretty good. Though I'll admit he probably needs one more small thing to really put him firmly into that upper echelon. But clearly he IS capable of winning a HUGE tournament.

[@oknerd7431]

Meta is fine but i just hate some characters drive rush along with rashid lvl 2

[@rune9055]

They sure did chopped off Chun's she might be boring to play for some, but in addition she is hard to play. She needs Buffs.

[@UltraChenTV]

It’s so odd because I think she’s still really strong. What major nerfs hurt her? I don’t even feel like she got any major nerfs in Season 2.

[@rune9055]

@UltraChenTV I don't think she's bad, but she doesn't do well in a throw-loop meta, not to mention she lacks a throw-loop, and her fireball is not as good as before.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah, not having a Throw Loop is a bit rough, though for all practical reasons, she CAN Throw Loop because people are so scared of Meaty crHPs and such. But to be honest, it might be better if EVERYONE was put into that state. Except Kimberly. Because she needs everything. "But James, she alrea..." SHE. NEEDS. EVERYTHING.

[@michaelnau3815]

I think you have something there, talking about her being "hard to play". I remember a video from Broski, comparing how much effort it took Dalhsim to execute a high damage combo compared to Luke. Balance should also take into account the "difficulty" of the character. Obviously, I'm not really talking about the few top Evo players, there is a whole community playing SF6 beside them and, to this community, how hard or easy to use a character is, I think, matters into the meta. It's kind of like, you can have a very strong and high damaging character but what's the use if that character is very bad at creating opportunity to actually hit? That's also, IMHO, Modern Players can get annoying. Not because they don't have to learn the classic execution but because they also get rid of the mental state/awareness/stress of commiting to this execution. When I fight a modern player, specially a shoto, I know I have to REALLY play better than them because they will never miss a DP or even hesitate to do one in any occasion. Suddenly, my job is to bait DP or put them in a situation where it's not available instantly. Sure, pro players probably never miss a DP (we've seen it being wrong in finals) but a random internet guy should and/or should hesitate to commit and have facepalm's moments. I don't know remember who talked about it, maybe that was you @UltraCHenTV, but adding some delay/lag on Modern moves might be a good thing, to emulate the decision porcess and commitment. Or, I dont know, after a number of wins with a character, removing the Mordern option so they, then, learn the "real" game progressively? All in all, what I mean is, "ease of use" should be taken into account when balancing characters. And, yes, I'm probably a scrub, but I'm a scrub loving this game very, very, very much ^___^

[@briquesbts]

The meta is okay, but I still think the game needs some tweaks. DR nerfs, maybe 1,5 drive bar cost, maybe less frame advantage. Some nerfs to the top characters and buffs to bottom ones. Overall I think the meta is a bit stale, I would like some changes to shake it a little bit

[@oknerd7431]

I dont think drive rush deserves a meter nerf, def a speed nerf on a few chars.. dee jay, juri, jamie/?. Jamie dr st hp is crazy along with a few of juris moves

[@UltraChenTV]

My thought has always been to make the Drive Gauge penalty a bit longer for DRCs. Right now, you start gaining Drive Gauge back even faster on DRCs than even raw DRs. But also, I really want to see the nerf I've been asking for forever: make it so that if you hit someone out of Drive Rush, you get the same +4 Hit Stun bonus you get from DRs and Punish Counters AND the enemy stumbles forward on hit, which makes sense given their momentum off a Drive Rush. That way, checking a Drive Rush can lead to amazing damage for defenders and makes DRs JUST AS STRONG as they were before, but they come with a larger risk. I think that works great.

[@sawyersimpkins9428]

Buff sim, he doesnt have a reversal, ex reversal, or lvl 1. If you lost to a sim its a straight up a skill issue.

[@UltraChenTV]

I wouldn’t say that. Sometimes you don’t even get the opportunity to rush him down. That being said, Sim definitely needs a buff. Not sure what. I had season ways to make him be able to wake-up teleport so he doesn’t damage the opponent but also force him to chain a new OD Teleport back to back so it costs him way more meter to escape. I think that would be neat because he can fight while in Burnout better than most. So it would be an interesting dynamic.

[@sawyersimpkins9428]

@UltraChenTV i haven't thought it through, but would Drive Reversal buffs make sense? Since it cost 2 bars, what if it started up faster and was safe on block, even -3 or something? Maybe if you make it that strong, make it cost 3 bars? Random thought, how do you feel about a change where if you are hit during a drive rush it's a punish counter?

[@UltraChenTV]

My change to Drive Rush that I’ve been proposing is even more punishing than that. I wouldn’t make it exactly a Punish Counter, but I’d give you the same +4 when hitting someone that they get when they DR and hit you. But I’d ALSO make the enemy stagger forward when hit out of a Drive Rush, which would make sense given their forward momentum. That way, checking Drive Rushes gives you SUPER easy confirms and since they stumble at you, barely clipping them would still give you a good combo. This keeps Drive Rushes every bit as POWERFUL and STRONG as they were before, just with a much higher added risk. And I think that’s fair.

[@MisterTwit]

I wonder what you think about the current state of Marisa... she literally got damage buffed and every pro that mained her has left the character lol

[@UltraChenTV]

I'm super shocked at her fall. I don't think any character has fallen off as hard as her despite not really being nerfed even all that badly. It's just that her strength... literally her strength... is overshadowed now by Akuma and Bison, who do as much damage as her with a lot more tools as well. In fact, most characters, now that they've been optimized, can typically do nearly two touch death. I swear Marisa needs to be able to do 100% damage with 3 Super Levels and a full Drive Gauge if she gets a perfect combo starter. Hahahaha. I feel like she deserves it.

[@MisterTwit]

@@UltraChenTV Damage is such a fickle gift; if two characters do equal damage then the advantage goes to the one who can set it up more reliably, which is never going to be Marisa with her tank tread foot speed and lack of DR low attacks. But do you think Akuma and Bison will keep that damage? Or was this all a mistake? Personally I’m leaning on unintentional but I don’t know how they would make it up to those players if they had to backpedal.

[@UltraChenTV]

I think the way we’re both intentional, maybe not to the degree that they are, but it’s not like any of Bison’s combos were crazy routes. They were all pretty obvious. I think they did it because he has to plant the bomb first. So two combos from other characters may almost equal the damage Bison gets from a bomb plant combo and a bomb trigger combo. But I would like both he and Akuma toned down a bit just to make Marisa more special again.

[@sawyersimpkins9428]

This "bison is bad on defense" lie has to stop. Hes not bad on defense just because he doesnt have an ex reversal. He has lvl 1 reversal, so his defense is mid, not bad. Not mention if he blocks it out he can jab into devils rise and just fly out of the corner. Its very effective.

[@UltraChenTV]

He certainly is better off than some. Just having great range in Normals also allows him to fight out of corners more efficiently. It’s still a big weakness when it comes to stealing turns and fighting against things like Drive Rush Cancels, where OD DPs can punish non-true block strings from DR Cancels. So he does still have to hold a lot more pressure than other characters.

[@alfredososa3059]

Buff my boy Ed

[@chm2]

I think the real reason fighting games are not intuitive is the fault of the game designers. For example, explain to a new player that Lily's standing medium punch have hurtboxes in the clubs on recovery. That's nonsense Capcom did in the name of balance. And how you need to explain to a new player that heavy dragon lash is "plus on block" unlike the the medium and light versions. So, if you don't want to suck, you have to go study and memorize frame data and lab which button to use to punish. Your example of learning to not leave 5 frame gaps against Zangief is another example. The move animations don't always "match" their frame data or reach. Balance patch comes out and Zangief's knee looks the same, but the frame data changed? You better have read the patch notes or you get destroyed now and have no idea why.

[@DirtyOldmanOG]

Most people who play fps for the first time, don’t know how to move with the left and right analog. However, the same people can mash buttons in fighting game. Idk if it’s because James doesn’t play enough shooters to know this or never taught someone to play a shooter.

[@han3wmanwukong125]

Wait, you mean the left and right analog sticks that are on the face of the PS1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 controllers? They can't find THOSE analog sticks? Im curious do you use XBox, cause the left analog stick is in a weird position, so I can imagine it being slightly confusing, but... like, they CAN'T find it at all? That seems suss to me. Are you talking about N64 controllers, cause that would be a trick... they only have the 1 Analog stick, don't they.

[@DirtyOldmanOG]

@@han3wmanwukong125 I didn’t say find it, I said use them. The first time I thought a friend how to play Destiny, she had a hard time moving and controlling the camera. Unless you play a lot of games and fps, it can be difficult to grasp moving both sticks.

[@han3wmanwukong125]

@@DirtyOldmanOG oh. I see.

[@UltraChenTV]

To be honest, I wasn’t even considering console FPS when I was talking about it. Because, yeah, console FPS is an entirely different story. That is a lot more complex. I was referring mostly to PC FPSs.

[@DirtyOldmanOG]

@@UltraChenTV that is fair. I never really thought about it until trying to teach someone to play. I didn’t understand how it was confusing.

[@bigtone5230]

Buff Honda!!!

[@ZazankoVT]

Complain about zangief and saying bison is fine is a warcrime, i love that some people dont really know what they buff about zangief, just complain about the entire kit throwing a random ball because everyone is saying is broken, but no one really have real point about him, they just reflecting his complain of a character who have 1 relevant entire competitor in all the world, "yo, the command grab hits to much, yo, the 2 HK is too long" goddamn, is you dont now how to play against him or just dont like it, just say it, a dont like blanka, for example, and i dont complain about it, i just dont know de MU and eventually, i gonna learn it, thats it

[@UltraChenTV]

Oh trust me, I'm with you on all of that. If it were up to me, I'd buff a few things about Zangief. Hahaha. I'd still take away the -3 Knee, though. LOLOL! But god would I make the Lariat better. Again, I play Zangief. I lvoe his 2HK and grab range. Also, complaining about his grab range is...... like so 30 years ago? LOL! He's ALWAYS been able to grab that far. My brother and I called him the Russian Suction for a reason! LOLOL!

[@ZazankoVT]

@@UltraChenTV zangief dont grab your body,grabs your soul

[@chimpmasterflex]

Tbh the way you rant about kim, is the way I rant about Manon lol. I've recently been trying to play again, and I feel only a marginal difference compared to season 1. Whenever people talk about balance, I just know there is no way they play Manon. Like sure not every matchup is 10-0 or something dumb, but they are rarely fun to play, which just gets me to play less and less even if I 5-0 somebody at my level. Yet there still isn't a character I click with too well, so I have even less fun on other characters. As far as balance goes, I think we need love taps, with love buffs. Nothing too crazy, but I will say from most tourney stuff I see, or even street fighter league, there are definitely about 6 characters that are heavily represented no matter what. I don't think we need to shoot anyone, or shoot anything into a character, but mild tweaks would be nice. 1-2 minor changes for characters like ed, bison, akuma, ken, gief, and rashid (what you mentioned pretty much). Meanwhile give some of the weaker characters 2-3 small buffs. For Manon, if they just gave me a 6-frame medium button I'd be happy, cause the drive reversal being -6 change really sucks for me lol. Most of the time I get lk into special, and while yes heavy command grab is 5 frames, I'm often out of range for it, off of the little bit of pushback, and even if it hits, I say bye to oki. Trying to get a meaningful punish as is really only works if I use everything, and it would seal a round. I would obviously like more/better changes (who wouldn't for their character), but that situation has me wanting to pull my hair out, its that frustrating lol.

[@han3wmanwukong125]

Capcom is not very good at making small changes which do not have an overblown effect in the entirely wrong direction. Look at Honda changes. They wanted to nerf his toxicity. But they failed. They wanted to boost his neutral. HIs neutral is still mediocre at best. They wanted people to enjoy playing as him more. Of the 10 top Honda players on Earth, 9 have abandoned him entirely. They wanted people to not hate playing against him. The people who hated him before still think he is a waste of digital information. And with just a few tiny changes to make him better.

[@chimpmasterflex]

@@han3wmanwukong125 I mean even the Manon changes, they expressed what they felt her problems were, and went on to barely address any of them lol, so I mean I get it. This is just my hope at least.

[@UltraChenTV]

Don't even get me started bout Kimberly and what they said about HER in the patch notes. "We noticed she has trouble in Neutral!" So they gave her an LP Vagabond Edge that is safe on block at the most specific distance humanly possible. "And now here's Bison, where Scissor Kick is no longer a charge move! And LK version is safe at MOST ranges! And gives you AMAZING COMBOS when it's a punish counter!" Me: "%^@*#$^*"

[@han3wmanwukong125]

@@chimpmasterflex I wouldn't be surprised that there's a minor uptick in success with Manon and capcom soundly spanks her behind with the nerf paddle.

[@chimpmasterflex]

@@UltraChenTV oh recall your video about a month or two? ago talking about that change lol. Speaking of bison, i love not being able to punish like 90% of them on manon, and not threatening even remotely decent punishes when I do get one. I really do want to like sf6, but the more I play the more outright frustrated I get with it. Though, this is different from something like DnF duel that I absolutely hated. I want it to be a game for me, but in the current state, it just isn't.

[@Pawsum1tiger]

Gief being able to stick on you after a knock down with Dr is too strong. Shorten his Dr and leave him how he currently is

[@psych0s15]

I'll never get tired of James going off on anti-AI art tangents.

[@castro187guy]

lol he’s not that good no zangief will win a stacked 2/3 major with him even mena played blanka st cream city for like 2 sets

[@JadeJackal4]

Fighting games are literally THE most intuitive video games. You can literally just turn one on at a party and put controllers in front of a TV and everyone would intuitively understand what they have to do to the win The problem is you don't understand what intuitive means and what a casual/non gamer consider intuitive

[@UltraChenTV]

Nah. I'll have to explain it more in the future. Dedicate a whole episode to it. Most people really don't understand my point at all. I'll need to give it a lot more time.

[@verbatim7508]

Bison has honestly ruined this game for me so I want him to get shot. If nothing else, replay takeover will be a VERY helpful feature to me as someone who doesn't feel like spending $7 per DLC just to be able to lab against DLC characters I'll never use (assuming Capcom lets you takeover replays involving unpurchased characters...)

[@azizkash286]

We really need a mid season balance patch. But knowing capcom they wont do anything good for the players

[@UltraChenTV]

They’ve already said they are doing more patches. And there have spray been more patches for SF6 this season than last. Haha. Bison came with a free balance changes already.