Why is God hidden? Cosmic Skeptic & Lukas Ruegger at Oxford University with Max Baker-Hytch

Why doesn't God seem to reveal himself to people who are open and seeking him?
Recorded at Wycliffe Hall, Oxford University, atheist Alex O'Connor (aka Cosmic Skeptic) and Christian apologist Lukas Ruegger join Justin discuss the hiddeness of God. OCCA tutor Max Baker-Hytch also joins the discussion for a post-script commentary.
For OCCA: www.theocca.org/
For Wycliffe Hall: www.wycliffe.ox.ac.uk/
For Cosmic Skeptic: / cosmicskeptic
For Lukas Ruegger: / deflate2020
• Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast: pod.link/267142101
• More shows, free eBook & newsletter: premierunbelievable.com
• For live events: www.unbelievable.live
• For online learning: www.premierunbelievable.com/t...
• Support us in the USA: www.premierinsight.org/unbelie...
• Support us in the rest of the world: www.premierunbelievable.com/d...

[@Pete-hm5gw]

Atheist here. Big fan of these debates on this channel. Justin is an excellent host and moderator. I look forward to more! :)

[@joannware6228]

f you can't believe in God it's not God's fault. It's absurd to put God and man in the same context and reveals a complete lack of imagination and perspective. "St. Augustine said that all of us, made from nothing, tend toward nothing. We can see this in our frailty and sin and mortality. St. Paul said, “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?” To believe in God is to know these truths. To live them out is to live in the attitude of humility. Thomas Aquinas said humilitas veritas, meaning humility is truth. It is living out the deepest truth of things: God is God and we are not. Now, all of this sounds very clear when it’s stated in this abstract manner, but man is it hard to live out! In our fallen world, we forget so readily that we are creatures. We start to assume that we are gods, the center of the universe. The ego becomes a massive monkey on our backs, and it has to be fed and pampered constantly. What a liberation it is to let go of the ego! Do you see why humility is not a degradation, but an elevation?" Bishop Robert Barron ? "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/20/2022)"

[@joannware6228]

Atheism often occurs when a person is not properly disciplined as a child. He grows up believing he is his parents' and then God's equal resulting in a complete lack of proportion and perspective.

[@Mar-dk3mp]

Godless and Souless people could not even theorized the Big Bang... Modern smartness...

[@azap12]

@@joannware6228 I don't think I'm a God. Im an agnostic atheist and I believe humans are insignificant in the universe. I'm no God who can creates his own purpose. I don't think I have purpose, but I live and thrive everyday rebelling this absurdity. Not all atheist are as egoist as you think, people have different attitudes and reaction towards the absurdity. Some like what you have describe are existentialist who tries to create their own meaning, yes some atheist are like that but not all of them.

[@holdontoyourwig]

@@joannware6228 If you can't believe in invisible magical unicorns it's not the invisible magical unicorns fault.

[@loganwillett2835]

As a Christian, Alex has become my favorite atheist to listen to! He’s seemed to drop the anti-theist tone and it’s so refreshing compared to a lot of the junk on both sides not just the atheist side. Alex is frequently in my prayers, he’s a kind soul and a brilliant mind and I wish him nothing but the best.

[@donaldmcronald8989]

Wonderful message. It's nice to find theists like you, also. All the best to you and yours.

[@mindymild]

As I am praying that God shows you the error of your ways

[@camdenbarkley1893]

As a passive atheist/agnostic, this is my favorite Christian channel for the same reason. It makes me really happy to see that Justin and Alex look to actually be good friends.

[@elanordeal2457]

@@camdenbarkley1893 ah God bless you! I’m glad you’re approaching this with honestly and I wish you all the best on your journey and pray that the love of God fills your heart as you seek🤍

[@carlpeterson8182]

Me also. He is very thoughtful, humble, and brave. He is willing to take his thoughts to their conclusions even if it challenges him or his past beliefs. He follows what he thinks is truth wherever it goes.

[@schinzo19]

I’m a Christian who really enjoys Alex. He is a gentleman and incredibly smart.

[@TheMahayanist]

Surely not.

[@schinzo19]

You don’t think he is well thought out and also not completely hostile in his approach?

[@martinploughboy988]

He's a mere child, with no understanding of spiritual things.

[@AmayzinOne]

@@schinzo19 Those things are true. But all men know nothing of gain without God.

[@scotteburns]

As an active seeker, Bible investigator, and one who is thoroughly weary of combative approaches to public discourse, the respect shown to each other's individual knowledge path in this conversation is refreshing and exciting. Thank you!

[@anarchorepublican5954]

the difference between atheism ...and a HAThEism...

[@celestialknight2339]

Have you tried reading the Qur’an?

[@UniteAgainstEvil]

​@@celestialknight2339stop that

[@celestialknight2339]

@@UniteAgainstEvil Stop what?

[@daneumurian5466]

Thank you, Alex, for being so candid about such a personal subject!

[@thucydides7849]

Justin has taken the role of debate moderator and perfected it into a true art and profession.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

not realll, i've lost count of the number of times he says "well, we can come back to that, but first".

[@anarchorepublican5954]

...he's a very talented fellow...

[@baskeptic1161]

Great conversation guys. Really enjoyed it! I spent decades trying to convince myself that there is a loving God and that I would live forever. I believed that as I became older and wiser the truth of Christianity would become clear. That didn’t happen. I finally accepted that I am likely just a part of the natural world and when I die my sense of self will cease. It was devastating! However, there was an upside I was not anticipating. I had not realized how much emotional energy I was putting into “trying” to believe. My cognitive dissonance plummeted. I live my life striving to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible and follow the evidence accordingly. Regardless of what I wish was true. Even if I am wrong, an omniscient God would know I have been honest in my search.

[@baberoot1998]

Funny...just the opposite happened to me. I was once a skeptic...and as I have aged, and have been able to study physics, and mathematics, and biology, and cosmology...etc, I can see how the universe is a grand scale of design. But I suppose we all have a road we have to take. And I would agree, that an omniscient God ...would know whether or not you were honest in your search. Agreed. The one thing I find discouraging in some who choose not to believe in a Creator/Designer...is sometimes it seems they point their finger at "Christianity". Seems fair on the surface...but the truth is...most, if not all Christian churches...are corrupt. I try not to equate God, and his existence...with what a so-called Christian leader teaches. Just because someone professes their brand of religion, and ideology of God...means they are OF God. Many people who profess Chrisitanity...are simply put...pure evil. Devious. I don't equate religion with God. It is quite plausible, and believeable...that God has no part in certain "religions". So no...I do not believe that just because someone claims God...that they are OF God. I find it discouraging when a certain religion preaches of behaves in a certain evil or devious manner, that many will reject God, because of some cult leader who claims God speaks to them. Because some religion claims God...does not mean...God claims them and their theology.

[@baskeptic1161]

@@baberoot1998 Thanks for sharing your perspective. I agree with much of what you said. I do want to clarify that I never “chose not to believe in a creator”. I just don’t see any reason to believe in a supernatural realm and/or eternal life. I accept that I could be wrong and am open to evidence. I don’t find the argument from design convincing because I think we are one of the life forms that adapted to the conditions of the planet/universe rather than the conditions being designed for us. Also, Christian hypocrisy had nothing to do with my deconversion. In fact, I lived as a cultural Catholic for several years after I lost my faith. My experiences in the church were mostly positive. I couldn’t agree more that we all have our own road to take and I wish you all the best on yours!

[@baskeptic1161]

@@baberoot1998 I also wonder if we are using the term “skeptic” in the same way. I define being a skeptic as having reason for the things I believe and, most importantly, being willing to change my mind when presented with new or contradicting evidence. I see a lot of people use the term skeptic for what I would call a cynic. I define this as closing one’s mind to the evidence and hanging on to a preferred belief. How are you using it?

[@joannware6228]

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

[@heteroclitus]

@@joannware6228 smart people, atheist or otherwise, understand that intelligence is not a significant factor in one's tendency toward religiosity.

[@vladislavstezhko1864]

I love Alex so much. What a gentleman, what an intellectual

[@planetofthevegans880]

He thinks like a machine and pretends to be something he's not.

[@vladislavstezhko1864]

@@planetofthevegans880but he is brutally honest and humble

[@sariahlace5944]

Me also 😊

[@sariahlace5944]

@@planetofthevegans880 Most Humans are Androids open your own mind.

[@jonnyw82]

I am always so impressed by Justin, he’s an amazing host and moderator.

[@danielconway7190]

I'm an atheist and I agree - he's excellent

[@joannware6228]

@@danielconway7190 If you can't believe in God it's not God's fault. It's absurd to put God and man in the same context and reveals a complete lack of imagination and perspective. "St. Augustine said that all of us, made from nothing, tend toward nothing. We can see this in our frailty and sin and mortality. St. Paul said, “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?” To believe in God is to know these truths. To live them out is to live in the attitude of humility. Thomas Aquinas said humilitas veritas, meaning humility is truth. It is living out the deepest truth of things: God is God and we are not. Now, all of this sounds very clear when it’s stated in this abstract manner, but man is it hard to live out! In our fallen world, we forget so readily that we are creatures. We start to assume that we are gods, the center of the universe. The ego becomes a massive monkey on our backs, and it has to be fed and pampered constantly. What a liberation it is to let go of the ego! Do you see why humility is not a degradation, but an elevation?" Bishop Robert Barron ? "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/20/2022)"

[@danielconway7190]

@@joannware6228 for someone who talks about ego and humility so much, you sure like to go around insulting people

[@CarnivoreAnesthetist]

@@danielconway7190 I’m a Christian and I agree. I love when we can get together a discuss issues and not try to go for each other’s throat. Wish you well.

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Paul did not exist. He was literary figure invented to fulfill a purpose in the bible

[@banibon47]

Max, I’ve been a Christian my entire life, and I’ve wrestled like Israel most of my life as well. The last few months in particular I’ve been plagued with your same questions and doubts. I can’t understand why God hides himself especially if He claims to be my Father and I’ve faithfully sought and served Him-I’ve sacrificed everything. I don’t understand why some people get to have these miraculous/supernatural experiences and I don’t. I felt anguished, fearful, frustrated, impatient, depressed. No one seemed to understand what I was going through, and I felt utterly hopeless realizing I wouldn’t live long enough on this earth to have all the answers. I believe Lucas is right however. I know God speaks to me-He’s done it many times before whether I admit it or not and He’s doing it right now even through you. Perhaps the struggle is the testimony God wants us to have. Some people have NDEs, some people are living terribly sinful lives but then go on to see visions or miracles, some just accept, and some people wrestle with the evidence. God interacts with us all through the same Holy Spirit and offers salvation to us all. He loves you and me the same as those that see miracles. Never stop searching and hoping for Him. He will open the door to those who seek and knock.

[@cpt.kimintuitiondemon]

My mother was a theologian suffering from severe depression, she could not experience god, then committed suicide. If a god exists, it feeds on our suffering.

[@zviiisa]

Sorry to be replying so late! I've been through some similar dark nights of the soul where I wonder why I experience him so little after "sacrificing so much." I think therein lies the lie that he wants to undo in our hearts. Our relationship is never transactional. He never gives himself to us in exchange for all that we've done for him. He gives himself to us, through the sacrifice of his son. Sometimes I think he will allow us to experience distance from him, so that we don't feel so entitled to his grace. I'm pointing the finger at myself here. He loves you--and that will never change based on when you feel or don't feel him. He loves you because of his own heart--nothing you can ever do. When you can't feel him, tell him thank you, and rest in his love for you. Think about the fact that the cross was for you, and your worth and value and eternal security have already been determined.

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

One think I have learnt is God mostly shows himself to the people that needs him the most. God show himself to the most sinful one and who are going against God. If you are already following God and doing what he is supposed to then God does not feel the need to seek you out. When you are in the path of God then Evil/Demon does seek you out to break your will away from God.

[@ChristerAnd]

@banibon47 I'm very sorry but I read your last words as "...to those who are sick and knocked". How utterly careless of me. Another thing: Comparing oneself and one's life's struggles with (presumably) the most tormented nation in human history isn't a little... presumptuous, you think? Just a thought, of course, I don't know you.

[@ChristerAnd]

@@noorzanayasmin7806 Seems like an extremely valuable thing to learn. Also, it totally bashes the discussion concerning God's alleged hiddenness, right?

[@jukkaahonen6557]

As a Buddhist agnostic atheist, I would characterise this channel and its guests with this verse: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."

[@cdogthehedgehog6923]

Thats really dumb.

[@matiaskoivulehto5880]

Mutta miksi kutsua ihmisiä Jumalan lapsiksi, jos Jumalaa ei ole?

[@christiang4497]

Beautiful comment 🙌🏽

[@viralstuff6556]

joo kylla kylla

[@therougesage7466]

Buddhist agnostic atheist 😂😂😂 brooooo that’s silly funny and overly descriptive ironically even since Buddhism Denies distinctions

[@RealAtheology]

This was a great exchange. It's really neat to see Alex's growth on these issues from a philosophical perspective.

[@senkuishigami2485]

Why don't you guys do a collaboration than ?

[@johnvirgilio5323]

It would have been better with Isaiah's explanation of God hiding his face because of our sins, and so on throughput his chapter 59, then gives the answer, where no one could be found to righteously intercede, so the Lord brought salvation for Himself with the arm of the Lord. Who is also revealed in chapter 53. "To whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Here's a clue, "He bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors." Isaiah 53:12c.

[@allenbrooks4391]

I enjoyed this civil, open minded discussion. These friends, who find themselves on the opposite side of this eternal question, model how to reason out their thoughts and questions on God’s revelation, without being enemies. Very well moderated! I’d love more. Well done!

[@peternotpeter4201]

I really enjoy the dynamic between these three.

[@fandude7]

I appreciate Alex's humility, in light of his unusual intelligence. Enjoyed the program.

[@TheMahayanist]

Lol that's funny.

[@ProfYaffle]

Great points from Alex. And great responses from Lucas and Justin. We understand his points

[@thomaskorah4115]

I’m a Christian and I think I enjoy listening to Alex more than some Christian apologists! Ha.

[@joshua_wherley]

He has succinct and reasonable arguments against the Christian worldview. As long as these are respectful and in the pursuit of truth, I'm interested in hearing them. They give me an opportunity to see things from a new angle, even if I come to a different conclusion.

[@dantheman909]

Alex provides clam and cogent counter arguments to Christianity. It really helps to strengthen the church and apologists. Praying he would come into the fold one day as well.

[@20july1944]

I hope God puts Alex through a meatgrinder in the process of saving him, IF that's what God intends. I would oppose rewarding this twerp for using his limited intellect to mock God.

[@allthingsconsideredaa]

I enjoy clams

[@20july1944]

@@allthingsconsideredaa I prefer shrimp and scallions.

[@allthingsconsideredaa]

@@20july1944 I enjoy shrimp with scallions and scallops

[@20july1944]

@@allthingsconsideredaa Scallops are indeed yummy as well.

[@cerealdude890]

The topic of (a)theism rarely has such honest, open, intellectual dialogue. The obvious respect that these three men have for eachother despite contrasting world views is very refreshing.

[@warclipsnow]

Wonderful discussion, beautifully moderated! 😀

[@joannware6228]

"If not for the grace of God, how easily we would go through our entire lives without pondering anything beyond our senses. If we can’t see it, hear it, or touch it, we often don’t stop to contemplate it." -Jimmy Mitchell from his book Let Beauty Speak

[@drzaius844]

Children growing up in evangelical homes that experience extreme doubt, like myself, who very innocently and honestly pursue a relationship with god, and yet experience nothing but a void, just an echo in an empty room, that is the problem. Theists doubt, and atheists do not doubt, and that is the fundamental difference. Once you snap out of it, THAT is the peace that passes all understanding. ❤

[@Sammy-Dontpassmeby]

Much love, dear fellow interneter! i am not sure how to say this so forgive me if I am clumsy-worded as it is never my intent to offend, there are theists who are very sure that God exists. I am sorry for your pain, as sin has made it more difficult for all of us to have a relationship with God, but I did want to emphasize that He is there, and He does answer prayers. if you don't mind my respectfully asking, what made you doubt?

[@drzaius844]

@@Sammy-Dontpassmeby 53:12 It’s hard to believe you are being honest. I answered your question in my OP, and Alex speaks to it during the whole video. And listen to the theist in my timestamp. God is either hiding from a large portion of humanity, and is willing to torture them for all eternity for it, or he doesn’t exist. I know your sacred beliefs won’t allow you to believe it, but I grew up in an evangelical family, and I am an example of a very non-resistant non-believer, I am proof that your perfectly loving god doesn’t exist. Theology is just the post hoc rationalization for beliefs that you already hold. You can understand why apologetics is ineffective with atheists and in particular ex-vangelical’s, and I am way happier to live with no fear of the insanely sadistic god of abrahamic theism. No doubts. Enjoy your “waiting on the lord” and “god’s timing” and when you let go of all that we are here for you ❤

[@renier4415]

Waited so long for this one. Glad it is here. ;)

[@wessexexplorer]

Well done chaps on a fine conversation.

[@kotvisbj]

What a great conversation. Alex is too well spoken to be from Earth.

[@immanuel829]

I am astonished that Alex does not admit that non-rational particles cannot produce rational thoughts.

[@kotvisbj]

@@immanuel829 I don't follow

[@immanuel829]

@@kotvisbj what I mean is this: naturalists believe that their intelligence is the product of non-intelligent particles. Whoever wants to believe that, fine, but it's not science. Moreover, it doesn't seem very logical either. Molecules have neither thoughts nor free will. The self that is looking through your marvellous eyes cannot be reduced to physics and chemistry. "This conclusion strongly reinforces our belief in the human soul and in its miraculous origin in a divine creation." John Eccles, neuroscientist and Nobel laureate

[@kotvisbj]

@@immanuel829 I don't think you have represented Alex very well in your comment above nor the underlying argument. I would love to see an "intelligent particle". When we get into the roots of our origins they look unrecognizable to anything we see today. So the underlying point of the hiddenness of God still remains. Why doesn't God seem to want to be found? It's clearly not compelling in a clear way that gets everyone on the same page. So I have to assume God, if it's out there, has no interest in having us understand anything about it. Maybe there is something out there but without any clarity, we have no direction so we are left to our own devices to make sense of all of it.

[@immanuel829]

@@kotvisbj That's exactly the point: particles are not intelligent but Alex is! Hence he is more than matter. And so are you. The burden of proof is on the naturalist who claims non-rational unconscious molecules can create rational thoughts! Apropos origins: how (let alone why) dust and water became alive "remains one of the biggest mysteries in contemporary science" (Nature Reviews Chemistry 2020) DNA is a digital code, like software. Geneticist + former atheist Francis Collins calls it the "language of God". All the best for your further faith + life journey.

[@justinshadrach829]

Love Lukas stuff and Alex also. It's refreshing to hear an actual discussion. Alex has matured immensely from when I first heard him. I think his delving intellectually has at least removed mental strongholds and opened him in many ways. But ultimately experience of God through the spirit is the thread throughout the bible. I fully get the why has God not revealed himself? to non-resistant people. I like what Lukas said 'not revealed himself YET' or has God been doing so but we have not come to the full realisation or awareness it's God. Also true that God's revelation is progressive in that sometimes we are gently moved and other time God moves us suddenly and abruptly.

[@downenout8705]

And your evidence for what you assert you know about your god's revelation is what?

[@libertadvalerio870]

My admiration for Cosmic Skeptic grows by the interview

[@PeterBarkerMusic]

Really enjoyed this conversation 🙏

[@borneandayak6725]

As a Catholic, I enjoying listening

[@NEXTMARKDESIGN]

Excellent debate!!! Love both these guys!

[@_wade_morgan]

This is great!!! We missed this at the CCexchange I’m glad unbelievable put this on. :)))

[@monicatorres4965]

Love how Lukas approaches every subject gentle but clear

[@HarryNicNicholas]

lukas makes my skin crawl, he's just about the worst youtuber i can think of.

[@leoteng1640]

Lukas is onto something profound, "What moves a person to want to have a relationship with God?" What moves you to want to pursue a relationship with another person such as a spousal relationship? Is it innate in us to desire relationships?

[@conordelaney76]

The main motivation for wanting a relationship with God is fear.

[@adriani9432]

​@@conordelaney76For some people yes, but not everyone. It certainly wasn't the case for me when I believed in God. I worshipped him out of gratitude. Once I examined the evidence for his existence, I found no good arguments for it, so I stopped believing.

[@conordelaney76]

@adriani9432 Fair enough. I do think that people will ignore the evidence (or lack thereof) out of fear. Fear of death being the end, fear of not seeing lost loves ones again in the afterlife, and fear of burning in hell for all of eternity. Sure, some people will pursue God out of gratitude. I do think the instillation of fear is the most common way of brainwashing children into pursuing a life devoted to God.

[@johannaquinones7473]

I love Alex’s mind. As I listened to him I was moved to pray God embraces him with His undeniable Love.

[@teachpeace3750]

What is God waiting for? This is the issue at hand. God is not available to us to experience in any meaningful and empirically verifiable way.

[@joannware6228]

@@teachpeace3750 It's an amazing phenomenon. Atheists egos are so enormous they believe they can reinvent the universe.

[@teachpeace3750]

@@joannware6228 lol, what?

[@nujumkey]

As a believer, do you have any thoughts as to why God hasn't revealed himself to Alex yet?

[@Trivium1989]

@@teachpeace3750-what you’re asking for is a category error. However, on the Christian view, God became a human in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. Thus, He became “available to experience in a meaningful and empirically verifiable way”. As the apostle John wrote, “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen [empirical observation] with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us…” (1 John 1:1-2).

[@brendonlake1522]

Alot of really good back and forth here, this argument from Alex has been very interesting to me and well worth exploration.

[@albrio8451]

The obvious and most viable answer to this question of God’s Hiddenness, is that “god” is a figment or creation of our own imagination.

[@mikegrecamusic5917]

This is crazy, but I saw this coming with Alex. Such a genuine soul.

[@joannware6228]

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

[@klo4880]

@@joannware6228 What an arrogant and disrespectful thing to say.

[@joannware6228]

@@klo4880 Yeah!

[@tobiash1446]

Great discussion! Personally overjoyed that Lukas asked Alex probing, open questions to tease out his position and spark an interesting two-way critical dialogue. They should continue these conversations IMO (perhaps on each others channels as well)

[@frankwhelan1715]

Well not if as it seems here,'if Alex can manage to stick around long enough god MAY show him evidence he exists'

[@joannware6228]

"Grant me, O Lord my God, a mind to know you, a heart to seek you, wisdom to find you, conduct pleasing to you, faithful perseverance in waiting for you, and a hope of finally embracing you." -St. Thomas Aquinas

[@carel-bartviljoen3465]

Awesome conversation

[@BobLeach_DarkWolf]

Great job all, especially Alex. You knocked it out of the park.

[@craigreedtcr9523]

This was a great exchange. At first listen this seems to be one of the most honest takes I have ever heard from an atheist. Alex seems to have been really thinking through these topics in a deep way.

[@Marqui91]

Fantastic conversation

[@kennyehm2004]

Great dialogue. Glad to see Deflate and Alex engage. Quiet frankly the fact that it requires this elaborate discussion demonstrates how hidden god is.

[@joannware6228]

God can never be found with science or logic because He resides above and below them. He created them so their existence is evidence of His. "We must know and feel in our bones what is wrong in us; we must look it in the face and acknowledge it with uncompromising honesty. Without this journey into our own inner hell, we will not feel the compunction to shift our way of being and seeing. And we must awaken to what is godlike in us, what is rich and unbroken, what is united with the saving designs of God. Without this clear sense, we will fall into complacency and see metanoia as, at best, a cruel illusion." Bishop Robert Barron "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/23/2022)"

[@kennyehm2004]

@@joannware6228 The existence of god could be objectively known to every human in a way that doesn’t require philosophical inquiry. Jesus allegedly rising from the dead is suppose to be the most important event in human history and the information available is entirely subjective.

[@kennyehm2004]

@@joannware6228 This is an emotional appeal. Why do these realizations require a god? There’s polarity. An individual who wants to maximize their potential needs to become aware of the things that impede that potential.

[@nickgeorgiou123]

Thank you lord Jesus for giving me free will as I ran away to drugs and a hedonistic lifestyle which left me suicidal! He came into my life 5 years ago and I've never felt such peace and love 🙏

[@Nick-Nasti]

You traded one drug for another.

[@adriani9432]

I think this comment is ironic :P

[@edcroteau3237]

I'm surprised there is no discussion on how God in the Bible describes HOW He reveals Himself - its within our spirit/soul. "Divine Hiddenness" seems to focus on physical/visual evidence for God, while Jesus in the New Testament focuses on His internal revelation in us. A good example of He reveals Himself multiple times everyday: moral character decisions. We can all agree the concept of kindness or compassion cannot be explained as an evolutionary or naturalistic by-product, but rather as an intrinsic quality of our inner self.

[@danielconway7190]

But you'd still know if it happened right? Can you have a personal encounter with the holy spirit and not know?

[@danielconway7190]

Also many people do think evolution gave us some aspects of what we call morality. It allows social species to survive better.

[@japexican007]

@@danielconway7190 those who had an encounter with God who were next to Paul didn’t hear Gods voice but rather the sound of thunder and a bright light, so I guess depends

[@marklewis1979]

The closing comments (along with the overall discussion) were so overwhelmingly sensible in Alex's favor. The ability to clearly articulate and walk through the problems with Christian theism versus the subjective wishy-washy responses is as close to an answer as we'll ever get.

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

That necessarily may not be true. There are a lot of people who do experience divine miracle and God. There are people that talk about it in their NDE experience. We have a lot to learn and relearn on the topic of God. Knowledge that we knew one time we dont anymore.

[@joanbenjamin6345]

At 1:01 or so, per Lukas 's comments. Many will come and say 'Lord, I (did this and that). And the Lord will say "I never knew you"..... There is and must always be a heart surrender, with whatever prolongue pertains to an individual heart. Praying for you wonderful guys. Shalom.

[@davidlenett8808]

I always get a chuckle from apologists like Lukas Ruegger when they talk about God, if God exists, or if you might come to develop a relationship with God. They do a wonderful job politely softening the language in these discussions. In Lukas' and Justin's worldview, you get ZERO credit for 'believing in God',... No, unless you believe in THEIR God they believe you'll be tortured in conscious misery for eternity! A teeny-tiny distinction, but one worth mentioning. Imagine being human and guessing wrong on the Celestial Showcase Showdown where you chooses door number 2 but it was actually door number 24. Gee, there were so many choices. Just the fact that the minds of men are inhabited by so many different and conflicting supernatural suppositions exposes the importance of a clear and compelling appearance from, 'The True Celestial Authority' to bring everyone on page. Given the grave consequences of getting it wrong makes the, Hiddenness of God question even more ugly, disturbing and repugnant. So happy to have a brain that's not polluted with notions of devils and demons fighting it out with God and His heavenly hosts.

[@daviddeida]

Who is this one that has a brain ?.You are the product of a brain

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

That is one thing I have experienced and as Christian wrestle with. I transitioned from being Muslim to Christianity. It is hard for me to accept human being who lived a righteous life their whole life according to bible but did not know the real truth of the real god and never believed in the truth and therefore persecuted. It almost doesnt seem fair. It seems that God revealed truth to us and it is up to us to pursue the truth but sometimes it feems near impossible. That is why I am incline to believe that there is a judgement where God reveals the truth to you and gives you choice whether to follow him or not when you are given all the necessary information. In Christianity that would be purgatory perhaps. I want to believe in Karma where the sum total of your deed is what happens to you but I do not want to believe in it if it is not 100% true.

[@laureelohnes4231]

Why do you think belief in God would save you? The devil believes in God.

[@sergiosatelite467]

In conclusion: there are no arguments that can rationally defend the hiddenness of god***but we must live as if god exists. ***or rather: no arguments were provided.

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@ic7204 I don’t understand why you throw out reason and evidence in determining the truths of the beliefs, but then try to use logic to justify the internal coherence.

[@davethebrahman9870]

@@ic7204 I don’t mean to sound offensive or supercilious, but that sounds to me like a rather odd epistemology. Why not simply accept any proposition in proportion to the evidence for it? If one does this honestly and consistently it is impossible to accept the Christian claims.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

Compromise his character - hmph - right, okay: What WAS that character, again? By Deuteronomy 21, perhaps a little bit, compromised, then - also.

[@noahfletcher3019]

Great discussion!

[@josuemendozanm505]

Alex, YOU'RE ON THE RIGHT PATH towards Jesus/God,my friend. Let God graduality CHANGE FROM RHE INSIDE OUT. I pray that I see you as one strong follower of Jesus in the future. Keep reading the Bible, keep studying; keep TRYING to trust God and he we'll be touch you in more tangible and powerful way, IN TIME.

[@conordelaney76]

Which partner the Bible should he read? The bit that says homosexuality it wrong, or the bit that says women are slaves to their male counterpart?

[@shaqyardie8105]

And do you have any evidence that prayer actually work? If god has a plan and it never changes, then why bother praying at all? A make-a-wish genie for deluded people.

[@JesusThineBeTheGlory]

God appeared once as fire coming down on a mountain and a second time he revealed himself in the flesh. We are now looking for his final return when he will come with great power and glory. God has also revealed himself in his creation.

[@LAdavidthompson]

You sound totally deranged. If one person spoke like this they would be in a mental facility....millions spout this delusional nonsense and its called religion.

[@zooedca]

What struggle... I live my life to the fullest knowing that when I die, its over. I don't worry about the end. I lived for 40 years as a born again christian worrying about what I was doing (SINNING) etc. Now I just love my children and live to fullest with them.

[@japexican007]

Interesting as a Christian I don’t live my life in fear but rather live life to the fullest knowing that when I die God will accept me into his kingdom, not because I’m good but because God is good and through his son he’s made a way so that I may reconcile myself with him

[@japexican007]

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@DIBBY40]

LB I know what you mean. Evangelical christianity gets very heavy and wordy. Lots of fear and anxiety. Surely the message of Jesus wasn't supposed to be like that? When I was a teenager and a Christian I used to feel that if people went to hell and I hadn't "witnessed" to them when I could have, then their " blood would be on my hands" ( whatever that meant!) How anxiety producing and heavy is that?!!

[@michaelakin-ademola1490]

Listen to Joseph Prince. You cannot by yourself fulfill the law, no man can. It is grace that helps you fulfill it. An awareness of the law cannot help. The ancient Israelites over centuries proved this. It is grace that teaches you to deny (lose the character of) ungodliness

[@zooedca]

@@ic7204 Sorry I wont take my evidences from Gary, I would take it from someone who did a scientific study. Funny how the evidences show that culture plays a huge role as each saw evidence from there own culture and religions for NDE. Basically the brain played tricks and they had vivd dreams.

[@pepescalona]

I'm offering for you, Alex. 🙏🏻

[@terenceg3287]

I once heard a well known preacher state: 'the riches of God's salvation are not hidden from man but hidden for man.' A massive difference.

[@noahfletcher3019]

This was weird to hear because for years Christians have always said that arguments alone will not get you there. This is why I do make appeals to experience and ask that atheists ask God for revelation. The reason many Christians got into apologetics in the first place was because we were constantly being told on the logical front that our beliefs didnt make sense and it does seem a bit strange that Alex is kind of walking all that back now and saying "you know what, theism is somewhat convincing however, that experience thing you used to appeal to... yeah, we should talk about that again". I am not knocking Alex but this is just a lesson to us Christians not to try too hard to appeal to the worlds impossible standard of truth rather than the witness of the holy spirit. We made a mistake by solely focusing on the logical aspect. I am afraid we took atheist criticisms of blind faith too seriously here and completely abandoned appeals to experience. It seems Alex is only coming round to understanding what we have always been saying which is that everyone should always been asking God to reveal Himself to us.

[@mikhail_from_afar]

I do see what you're saying, but it appears to me that such a path would stop such discussion in a stalemate. Believer says - You need to ask for a revelation; atheist replies - I'm doing all I can, I'm open. Whether the latter is being honest doesn't matter, really. This discussion is now stuck, even if atheist is being honest.

[@noahfletcher3019]

@@mikhail_from_afar Agreed. Good point. I'm not saying we stop giving reasons and delivering argumentation but this idea that we can't appeal to experience or ask people to do that is just not going to do it and the fact that many apologists caved to this idea that argumentation is all you need is wrong too. As I said, it seems to sometimes backfire as shown in this video.

[@austinperkins8348]

If I want to get to know my child and them know me I do it. It's not about them asking me.

[@exaucemayunga22]

​@@austinperkins8348well said. An all-loving father wouldn't sit and cross his hands and wait for you to search for him.

[@vanoroce64]

The key problem of divine hiddenness is that if the main thing weighed against it is natural theology and the classical arguments for god, then at *best* one should believe in a *generic* demiurge, not in the Christian tri omni god. Those evidences simply aren't enough to get to Jesus (or Allah, or Shiva, etc). I say at best because in my best estimation, those arguments don't even get you to a god. They get you to a cause or explanation for the universe, for reason, for morality. A deity isn't even the only explanation for these things! And it isn't even the most plausible one. Regardless: the chasm between generic deism or generic theism and *specific theism* is insurmountable if god is as hidden as he obviously is. Without direct sustained and collective experience of one unique set of gods, our credences should be with the statement that if god or gods exist, they can only be of the sort that want to be hidden, *and* that specific knowledge of them is impossible. They're as knowable as Sagan's undetectable dragon. In our constant dialogue between theists and atheists, and between theists of different persuasions and religions, we should be honest. God is not obvious. He doesn't talk to every one of us, if he does at all. He is not the same to all of us, if he is anything. We have no idea.

[@invisiblegorilla8631]

Agreed, and I was actually surprised that Alex didn't bring this point up in the conversation. If the counterarguments are only going to get you to an amorphous conceptual entity, then you've really done nothing to refute the problem of divine hiddenness. It's just punting the ball again with an extremely copious amount of words on paper.

[@niceguy191]

Yes, if God really is there unambiguously, then there should only be one religion as everyone would find the same answer.

[@jn5962]

To those who anger God, He hides Himself from them: Psalm 89:46 “O LORD, how long will this go on? Will you hide yourself forever? How long will your anger burn like fire?” But to those who love Him, God reveals Himself to them: John 14:21 “Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

[@georgekavanagh8220]

"And I will love them and reveal myself to them." He revealed himself to me, so am I special? No! I simply accept his commandments. It's accept or reject.

[@NoContextRDH]

A beautiful discussion

[@leoteng1640]

I think Alex brought up a good point on the specificity of the way God reveals Himself to the person who is seeking Him. This idea of a personal God makes more sense when you consider the "private" revelation instead of an universally accepted revelation. I gather that the universally accepted natural theological argument of God's revelation is one of the aspect but more importantly it needs to develop into a more personal revelation to form a more intimate relationship with Him. Just like everybody knows your wife or good friend on the outside but only you know her or your friend more intimately. Good is personal to us individually but also known to everyone universally. It is an intimate relationship that draws more meaning in our lives with Him and this is crucial to live with Him in eternity when granted the chance. Hope this makes sense.

[@feedsravens4655]

So we all have personal Gods. Each one fits perfectly to the expectations of its "owner". VERY convenient. Each personal God gives its owner a good feeling, of being Chosen, being the center of attention of an all-powerful being (how elating), that you cannot go wrong when you follow Him, that you are always on the RIGHT side. How do you know that these personal Gods are all one and the same? Some's personal God is one of love and peace, that is tolerant and wants us all to live together in harmony however the mindset (NICE!), the personal God of others is one with a fiery sword that is slaying all the infidels, and anything other than a pure christian God state is intolerable. And millions of different flavors (in principle 2.7 billion personal Gods) in between. Which one is right? Trouble is the postulation of each one that this is the PERFECT divine revelation, so all dissenting ones MUST be completely wrong. The divine perfection makes it impossible to change the personal God. But as Christians share there is only one God, they simply define that they all mean the same, and have learned not to perceive the differences of the personal Gods of the other Christians, to never ask about specifics. Would we be able to admit to our ideas and values being all individual and that for living together, we have to find common ground, which is tedious and never ending, because people change all the time, we would all be better off. I fully understand the appeal of the feeling of being Chosen by an all-powerful being, but I also see that you can reach the same feelings with other methods or from other gods, so what makes your's right? The argument ad populum is not too compelling. And think that where the whole Jesus story originated it remained one story of several of the same God, the whole region remained rather insignificant. It became successful when it spread in the far advanced cultures of Greece and Rome, both with DIFFERENT polytheistic cultures. Can it be that without the (non-christian-based) power of these cultures it would not have worked out that well? The greeks knew (assumed) the earth was a globe centuries before Christianity. And many things that Christians assign to their religion (e.g. logic) are citations from Greek philosophers. It is easy to assign all to God when you simply include everything... That is my issue with the personal God.

[@leoteng1640]

@@feedsravens4655 How many different kinds of relationships do you have with your family, friends and colleagues? isn't this similar to the concept of a personal God? One God with different relationships with different persons? And yes, my love is quite different for my wife compared to my children and my friends. Am I a different person? Yes and no depends on the situation and the kind of person I'm with. Do you treat God as a being or as an object? We must also understand that He is not human but we are like Him.

[@feedingravens]

@@leoteng1640 What you describe is that what we know, what exists in the reality we perceive. A relation that is individual between individuals. That would mean your "personal God" is just like some buddy you look up to. Trouble is that God has properties he MUST possess, or it makes little sense to call him God and respect him: 1) Omnipotent 2) Omniscient 3) eternal 4) Creator of EVERYthing 5) unchanging (means all the statements, morals, logic, values etc. NEVER change) 6) Perfect 7) Absolute 8) Just - treating ANY human with the same standards. 9) Benevolent 10) All-loving, means he will give all equal chances, will invest the same effort to give ANYbody the same chance to be saved and go to heaven for eternal happiness.ANYtime, ANYplace, ANYone. 11) He knows what is persuasive for ANY person on earth, as he is omniscient, and he can create that "persuasive proof", as he is omnipotent? Do you agree on these mandatory properties or which do you exclude? (I daresay, that you will modify the fixed, static properties of God according to the situation you have to explain, but do not perceive how you apply different subsets each time). For instance, aboriginees in Australia could not know about Jesus having saved them until a few hundred years ago. Did all go to hell up to that point even though their only "fault" was being born on the same continent? They did NOT use their Free Will to be born there. Or was it the Free Will choice of some of the ancestors of Noah's sons to wander to Australia (and forget about the one God) that blocked the path to salvation for countless generations? So to speak, guilt by inheritance? Or what is with persons whose mental capabilities are so impaired that they are unable to grasp the concept of God? From demented to embryo, are these exempted, i.e. get to heaven nevertheless? When you have to begin to start to make such exceptions, then you open Pandora's box. Because then you cannot exclude that at least SOME atheists are mentally impaired to perceive the evidence for God that you consider is so obvious. That they were quasi born blind, and God in his omnipotence is responsible for this "birth defect", as he controls EVERYTHING. (after all, he controls that prophecies become fulfilled after centuries, so either all is fixed before the universe even began (which negates Free Will) or God constantly interferes to bring the course of the world back in order when Free Will spoilt the plan again (also destroying Free Will)). Can you exclude that such a "blindness" might exist? Another possibility for this "blindness" is to have grown up in an environment where the belief in this specific God simply played no role. See the aboriginees, or Hindus, or simply atheist scientist parents. Compared to a child that was born into a pious family, told it is a born sinner bound for hell as soon as it was able to understand words, was taken to church every week (at least), was trained to pray itself into trance and speak in tongues before entered school. Is that inequality of opportunity fair for an omnipotent, omni-benevolent, loving God?

[@leebennett1821]

God is in your head and nowhere else

[@feedingravens]

@@leebennett1821 Leo's personal Jesus is like James Stewart's "Harvey", the invisible, talking, 6-foot rabbit. A friend, a partner, with a weird wisdom helping you in your life. But is this puka real? Another effect that I am reminded of is the Third Man Syndrome. That is a known, documented effect that is usually experienced by people under extended, exthaustive physical stress in more or less isolation. They experence the presence of an additional person, with which they might even speak, that encourages them, raises their spirit (lol). In their state they do not think about how this can be possible at all. And when for some reason they are turning round to where the person should be, no one is there. So to speak a "natural", non-divine phenomenon, but I think of the stories of guardian angels, of Jesus appearing to Saul on his march to Damascus, of Noah on the mountain having God speak through a burning bush, Jesus out in the desert arguing with the devil. My boss told us when he was on a 15,000+ foot high Himalayan summit, he has the absolutely realistic memory that they met a sherpa with his yak up there and spoke with him. He knew it is absolute rubbish, but it is there. In my eyes the alien abductions (or Kate Kerr's regular visits of Heaven to talk with God) are not more than sleep paralysis, a phase during waking up, when the connection to your body (control) is still asleep that causes panic, and your brain makes up hilarious stories from memory fragments to explain that paralysis. In one I thought to myself "No wonder you cannot leaf back to page one of this book, you are asleep, it CANNOT work", and so could (in my dream) relax and watch myself searching frantically. Just an abnormal brain state. Last one is Near-death experiences. Also an abnormal state, when the brain is deprived of oxygen, but still working (the chemicals that make up our thinking are not all spent). Eyes and ears still work, so there is input. And no wonder when the brain now "tries" to do something and creates effects like the two above.

[@parsifal335]

I definitely did not walk the walk as an atheist, and still the reward for my half-hearted reaching out for God was out of this world. Alex will receive no less, I'm sure. The big question is always the "when", of course ;-) I believe the answer to be when it will favor you the most. I'll pray for Alex and his continued search for truth. Inviting my brothers and sisters in Christ to join me.

[@shammahpeters586]

It's the way they kept interjecting with laughters and chuckles for me. Such a graceful conversation between Christians and a non-christian. I doubt Alex knows that people are praying for him.

[@jackforeman2742]

Thanks to all of you gentlemen for sharing openly and having these important discussions. For those in the comments seeking truth and God. The advice that continues to help me is to pray. Pray earnestly and in the most humble posture you are able to make that accepts and submits. Do not impose on God, rather allow God in and open your heart to the love that he has for you. Consider the gift that life is and can be and see the love that is manifest in it. If you seek God in all sincerity, humility and repentance then God will embrace you as his child. I pray that this realization comes to you.

[@erniemathews5085]

Listening to Alex is a lot like being in class with my favorite teacher.

[@joannware6228]

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

[@erniemathews5085]

@@joannware6228 says someone who doesn't listen...

[@joannware6228]

God came into the world as a man. Revealed everything about Himself. Instructed us how to become his children. Then He died for our souls. How can he be hidden?

[@jozsefnemeth935]

The conversation has not even reached the statement that God became man. Weird. How can one debate Christian faith without its most central dogma, which sheds light on so many aspects of this topic!?

[@joannware6228]

@@jozsefnemeth935 I don't watch the discussions. I tried a couple of times and couldn't make myself. I'll have to try harder. Thanks.

[@shaqyardie8105]

So he's dead? Appaently not. He voluntarily put himself in a coma state for 3 days to sacrifice himself to himself to forgive himself for rules and a situration that he created. Wow, thank you so much god.

[@joannware6228]

@@shaqyardie8105 Can you please elaborate? I have no idea what you're talking about.

[@shaqyardie8105]

@@joannware6228 You said he died for us? But he's still alive? So he didn't die? And why did he need to do this? He created a situation that he is unhappy with and he's all powerful, but he can't get rid of the problem? The only evidence you have is a book that a radom man wrote in. Your god supposedly created whole planets, stars, moons and galaxies, but after that he seems to be incapable of doing things without the help of human beings. Noah build me a boat, Joseph let me impregnate your girlfriend so I can bring myself to earth because jut bringing myself to earth like when I walked in the garden in genesis won't be enough. A god that doesn't talk or reveal themsleves is indistinguishable from a god that doesn't exist.

[@rl7012]

The most pertinent bit of the conversation is when Alex said 'Yes so why don't I believe' after acknowledging all the evidence he knew existed for God. And that is it. Some people you can give them all the evidence in the world and they will not be convinced, others, may have no evidence at all, and be convinced of God because of an unknown cause. So what is it that makes people believe if not evidence? It has to be something else. Evidence can be part of it, but not necessarily so. If you think of it your world view shows how you may interpret something, so your world view is part of it. But it is not just that either. It is something else.

[@niceguy191]

Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be within a person's control and therefore should not be a barrier God refuses to cross

[@rl7012]

@@niceguy191 But who is blocking who? We humans can be very blind and miss the obvious. We also often don't see what is right in front of our eyes and obvious to others. Our mind can play tricks on us and our own thinking can keep us trapped. I don't think it is God hiding from us, it is the other way around. We wilfully either knowingly or unknowingly don't want to see/know.

[@niceguy191]

@@rl7012 If God is so difficult to see that we can unknowingly block him from our vision then we have no hope... Imagine genuinely trying to see the sun and somehow failing. A God wanting to be discovered would be orders of magnitude easier to find than the sun. If our minds are so good at playing tricks on us, then how do we know that God isn't the trick of the mind? If you are squinting at the barely visible blurry thing in the distance and only see the shape after being primed on what it is, how can you trust that what you think you see is reality? Especially when a telescope shows nothing there...

[@freshjunkie4392]

@@rl7012but why would a loving god make us that way?

[@rl7012]

@@freshjunkie4392 We were not made that way, We have free will, we can see if we want to see and we can remain imprisoned in our lying minds if we choose that.

[@JonathanMafi]

Some great responses from Lukas Ruegger.

[@Indorm]

It's so nice to listen to an atheist who is so open to other worldviews. I think he should ask Becket Cook (formerly in the gay lifestyle) and should have asked Nabeel Qureshi when he was still alive (former Muslim), if it was 'cruel' to expect them to give up their old lifestyle/their family for Jesus.

[@downenout8705]

Shame that the theists don't reciprocate and are never "so open to other worldviews" and instead assert that they "know" that their chosen flavour of god is the only "true" flavour.

[@Indorm]

@@downenout8705 All theists? Why are you downen out? 😢

[@downenout8705]

@@Indorm Yes all theists, are you seriously trying to claim that a Muslim would proclaim the truth of 1 Corinthians 15: 14, or say a non Catholic Christian that the Eucharist is actual flesh and blood. I like the handle Downen Out, as it is a reminder of how utterly insignificant I am and not to have the arrogance to assert that I know the mind of the supposed creator of the entire cosmos.

[@Indorm]

@@downenout8705 Many theists I know grew up atheist and converted later, like biologist Sy Garte. I myself grew up Christian but went through a period of investigation when I wanted to follow the evidence where it leads. I went through a period of just floating and not being sure about the resurrection for about six months. We do listen. And we do love you, because God loves you. That’s one thing I’m really sure about these days.

[@downenout8705]

@@Indorm So you grew up "knowing" your flavour of god is the only "true" god because your mummy told you so. All you have told me is that your choice of god is based on indoctrination and accidental geography. Doesn't seem like you are listening to me, yet you still have the audacity to assert that you "know" what your flavour of god thinks about me. Let's be clear, there is no empirical evidence to "follow" in respect of the biblical resurrection claim. I say to you with the same degree of confidence that the sun will rise tomorrow that, if you reply, you will never rebut my assertion with even a single sentence contain just a mustard seed's worth of empirical evidence. Belief without sufficient evidence is indistinguishable from gullibility and I am proud to say that, as a former Christian, I am no longer gullible.

[@gretareinarsson7461]

Fantastic conversation. I have followed Alex somewhat over the years and sometimes found him a sort of “besserwisser” But, as with many, as one grows a bit older one gets a but more humble . Life is always the greatest teacher.

[@questioneveryclaim1159]

The world would be a better place if more people approached those that see the world differently like Justin does by recognizing that divine hiddenness, "is a significant objection to theism." As the conversation slips toward other evidence based augments Justin brings them right back to the topic, "divine hiddenness." Well done Justin bringing some quality minds together to discuss an interesting topic.

[@joannware6228]

Rejoice, O young man, while you are young and let your heart be glad in the days of your youth. Follow the ways of your heart, the vision of your eyes; Yet understand that as regards all this God will bring you to judgment. Ward off grief from your heart and put away trouble from your presence, though the dawn of youth is fleeting. Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come And the years approach of which you will say, I have no pleasure in them; Before the sun is darkened, and the light, and the moon, and the stars, while the clouds return after the rain; When the guardians of the house tremble, and the strong men are bent, And the grinders are idle because they are few, and they who look through the windows grow blind; When the doors to the street are shut, and the sound of the mill is low; When one waits for the chirp of a bird, but all the daughters of song are suppressed; And one fears heights, and perils in the street; When the almond tree blooms, and the locust grows sluggish and the caper berry is without effect, Because man goes to his lasting home, and mourners go about the streets; Before the silver cord is snapped and the golden bowl is broken, And the pitcher is shattered at the spring, and the broken pulley falls into the well, And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath returns to God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, says Qoheleth, all things are vanity!" ECCL 11:9-12:8

[@feliz2892]

This is great stuff

[@TheNikolinho]

an extremely important topic, but i am frankly a bit disappointed - there was so much talk AROUND the topic of D.H. but not much talk about it. i wanted to hear questions from the skeptic and answers from the believer. i barely heard any of those, and that is such a pity :( for example, they could've talked about how was God showing up to Moses, to the prophets, or to the disciples, and even today in some supernatural events to regular believers or even to Muslims in dreams, yet how the majority of us, the believers, don't experience that. now, THAT would be a great, great, great convo!!!

[@megamatt1915]

i really believe that the topic of miracles is imperative to the conversation of divine hiddenness/how God reveals Himself. it’s a key part of the future of apologetics.

[@dmere123ify]

God revealed himself to me in experiences that I knew were real. I lived my life for several decades as a sincere strongly committed believer open to learning all I could by being part of a community of strongly committed Christians, and by reading and watching and listening to all I could about God and my faith. Then I went looking for the evidence to understand God better and over time I came to realise that many of the things I’d been told and had read simply weren’t true. The more I searched the more convinced I became that most of what I had been led to believe was effectively lies. I came to realise that the experiences that had confirmed my faith were the same kind of experiences that convinced people in other religions of the truth of their faiths. Then I came to realise that the world would be a much different place if the Christian God was real. The evidence for the Christian God in the physical universe, and in the Christian faith itself are clearly insufficient to allow the possibility that the God of the Christian Bible exists. The evidence which should be there simply isn’t and instead we have endless excuses that sound good until properly examined. That’s the hidden-ness that many atheists find so compelling. Whenever they look deeply into the nature of reality, or of the Christian faith, they find more evidence that the Christian God isn’t real. The most strongly believing Christians are often those who don’t go looking at the evidence with an open mind but are happy to believe what they are told by other believers. The internet has made learning more about the nature of reality and of the Christian faith much more accessible, which could be a factor in the steady decline in belief in the Christian God amongst those who have easy access to information. Christianity has increasingly become a faith of the ill informed and the ignorant; of those who can’t or choose not to access information that would enable them to make informed assessments. Many who believe are afraid to look honestly at the evidence lest they lose what they currently see as the most important parts of their identity. That’s how religions and cults maintain their hold on people in spite of readily available evidence that would set them free. It is the truth that sets us free.

[@hawt_fiya]

Well said! This was my experience as well! And just to add a bit, I’m open to discussing the issue at anytime. However each time a member of my family broaches the subject and sees how honest and open I am, they become terrified and shut it down. It makes me sad to see people so strongly in the grips of an ideology that gently confronting the topic with honesty scares them.

[@r00kiepilot]

Could it not be that the experiences you had were signs of God’s existence, but that Christianity wasn’t quite the right way? Don’t throw away the baby with the bath water. My advice is to ask yourself what is randomness or indeterminacy? Is there such a thing as ‘true lawless randomness’ where we have to stop searching for deeper explanations and just accept? This is what modern physics has led us to. Sound a bit like religion? When you stop searching for an explanation always ask yourself why you stopped at that point and if it is a satisfactory place to stop.

[@dmere123ify]

@@r00kiepilot in hindsight I acknowledge that the experiences I had do not represent good evidence. They were comparable to the experiences of people in other faiths whose beliefs are completely incompatible with the Christian beliefs I held. I’m not sure what randomness has to do with belief in a God apart from that it would seem a strange way for a God to operate. Evolution seems a particularly odd way for achieving any particular desired outcome for life on earth. Any God capable of universe creation and true relationship with humans would be capable of doing a more efficient and effective job, unless the object was to conceal his existence, which the bible strongly suggests is not the case. I’m fairly satisfied after a decade or so of searching with much of the position I have come to. Just as most people are pretty comfortable with the position they’ve come to with regard to other mythologies. I have no intention of ignoring any new evidence I can find that might change my position.

[@elsoil3387]

I'm the opposite. I've been a "seeker" in the true sense of the word for a long time now. I quite like some aspects of Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism etc. but I am actually finding evidence for the Christian religion which I am surprised to be finding. I dismissed Christianity as an angsty teen and went all over the place since. However, I had an inner revelation which was just a simple thought: "I would hate to see the world without Jesus in it". It was a serious thought. Imagine this pinnacle of the expression of human love and sacrifice didn't actually exist... Since then, things have started opening up for me. Look into the latest evidences for the veracity of the Shroud of Turin for example; or look into Gary Habermas' proofs for the resurrection of Christ. I think there is possibly more evidence for Christianity than any other religion. Far from it being the faith of the ill informed; it seems those who are rejecting it are simply not aware of the amount of scrutiny Christianity allows and can still come off winning - or at the very least - not losing (this channel is a great source for that). Christianity can hold its ground pretty well I find.

[@dmere123ify]

@@elsoil3387 I don’t think you will find much scholarly support for an early dating of the shroud of Turin. It’s generally accepted as of 14th century origin or there abouts. So I’d recommend further research on that one. The Wikipedia article seems to cover dating pretty well. Regarding the proofs for the resurrection I’d recommend the work of KZbinr Paulogia who has made that a specialty of his, including addressing Gary Habermas’ work. I’ve always found Paulogia scrupulously thorough and honest and happy to concede points that disagree with his own views. In my experience apologetics arguments seldom acknowledge evidence that doesn’t fit the personal beliefs of their presenter. They are generally used as a tool to persuasively represent one side of the argument rather than providing unbiased analysis. As such they are fairly convincing to people who wish to adhere to the beliefs they support but may not stand up to more in-depth scrutiny. I found the apologetics books I read as a Christian very convincing as I was not looking at any contradictory evidence. I also found the “documentary” on the faking of the moon landing somewhat convincing until I did further research. The easy access we have to information through the internet today certainly makes it easier to look at all available evidence. For an balanced understanding of the origins of the bible, that you’re unfortunately unlikely to hear from church based sources, I’d recommend the work of Prof Bart Ehrman.

[@Pincer88]

Regardless whether one is a theist or atheist, the integrity of the guests and host are impressive. Sadly I'm not familiar with Lukas Ruegger, but I've been a regular visitor on Alex's and Max's channels and find them both sincere and respectful. In a world nearly tearing itself apart over issues that should be less divisive imho, this kind of conversation is so badly needed. I think that if truth is something that can be established by use of human faculties, listening, empathy, sincerity and respect - when those are due of course, you can't argue with a mad dog with rabies - are of the essence. From whatever angle I look at it - humanist, agnostic, evolutionary, religious or just on a personal level, you are doing a 'divine' job.

[@jah8875]

The recent article, "SEEKING God's Presence: The Dopaminergic-Defense Hypothesis" offers a natural explanation for experiencing God (or experiencing something that feels like God).

[@vjnt1star]

when asked the question "why is god hidden?" the theists always say it's people's fault not doing this, not doing enough of that but it's never god's fault. I find it dishonest

[@phinehas68]

What an interesting conversation! I think that Alex's hope to be "moved" by an argument tends to take him out of the realm of philosophy and into the realm of relationship (admittedly so, I think). At that point, maybe relational experience is better at addressing the question than philosophy. The discussion reminds me a bit of the love between a husband and wife. Sometimes, that love can wane to the point that it doesn't _feel_ convincing or that it has the power to move you off your own self-focus. In those moments, you grit your teeth and act as though you love until the feeling returns. Belief certainly leads to behavior (especially from a philosophical standpoint), but it is also the case that behavior leads to belief (especially from a relationship standpoint). If we refuse to behave a certain way until we believe a certain way, this makes philosophical sense, but it may not make as much relational sense.

[@conordelaney76]

What about the love between 2 men?

[@phinehas68]

@@conordelaney76 What about it? My love for my dad can also wane so that I may act selfishly. The same principles hold there as well. Is there any reason they shouldn't?

[@conordelaney76]

@@phinehas68 What about the romantic and intimate love between two non-related male lovers?

[@phinehas68]

@@conordelaney76 Again, what about it? Are you saying that in your experience such relationships are not subject to the principles I described? Or are you just attempting to troll?

[@conordelaney76]

@@phinehas68 You made reference to the love between a husband and wife.

[@baskeptic1161]

I recently heard a clip from William Lane Craig admitting that he lowers his epistemic bar for Christianity. Lucas is essentially doing the same when he suggests people pretend to believe. I value truth and will not be lowering my standards to believe a comforting story. This doesn’t make me resistant, it makes me consistent.

[@daviddeida]

Who are you referring to when you say I dont believe?

[@clintd3476]

The allegory of “Pilgrim’s Progress” seems to fit for the question, “why these various bypaths, valleys, and meadows?” Recent cartoon version is a pretty good visual rendering, too.

[@MrAuskiwi101]

"Why is God hidden?" Because its imaginary

[@wessexexplorer]

Scale is a big issue for me. Scale in terms of time and space. When these faiths…got going, the universe was the earth and the lights in the sky, earth was the most important and largest part of the universe. Our place on earth was also synonymous with the creation of the earth and that history covered the whole age of the earth (6000 years). We now know the billions of years that precede us and the tens billions of light years across the visible universe is. I can’t know this and imagine that the universe is made for us or finely tuned. Nor can I accept that the perfect being has trouble getting a single message across to just one planet.

[@Apanblod]

Lucas is a young earth creationist, so I don't think that aspect bothers him too much.

[@jcbquark8037]

The final summary from Alex!!!! Wow

[@monicatorres4965]

amazing!

[@MiladTabasy]

When we want to make a triangle with three lines, lines are like the appearances but the real existence belongs to the surface of the triangle however it is hidden from us. It seems that without those imaginary lines we won't have any triangle but that is not true. Because the unity of imaginary lines reveals the existence of triangle however the real existence of triangle is its hidden surface. You judge.

[@conordelaney76]

If you had of incorporated the holy trinity into your triangle analogy, it would've be an A+ for effort.

[@49perfectss]

Alex did a great job here. Love how easy it is for him to keep calm and communicate how empty these theist arguments are effectively.

[@pablitothegringo1913]

great show

[@downenout8705]

Q. Why is the unicorn in my garage hidden? A. Unicorns are mythology creatures invented by the imagination of men. Something that cannot be detected is indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.

[@Tai182]

The point of living as if God is real and true is not suppose to be easy. To truly believe you must sacrifice and part ways with how you use to be. If you aren't willing to do that you are missing the point of what it means to follow Christ.

[@conordelaney76]

So what you are saying is: depart from rational thinking, logic and skepticism, and instead just believe something despite any coherent reasoning. Then you will truly believe and perhaps experience God.

[@liveonce2102]

Ex-christian here. Believed up until i was 35. I struggled for about 11 years before i stopped believing. Theres so many reasons why i cant ever believe in the christian god ever again. I tried hard to believe and it was watching alexs debates and matt dilahuntys dabates that help me realise its not true. They have a similar way of thinking and questions as me. I love watching this channel and still find religion interesting despite no longer believing in it. I have no clue what realilty is, is it like matrix, truman show, or just nature happening with no creator. Who really knows 🤔 still very interesting nevertherless x

[@joannware6228]

It's gotta be like a matrix for sure.

[@Golfinthefamily]

I don't know all of your reasons to walk away, and I don't have answers for all of them... but there is NO one like Jesus. I have found many have left Christ from an unbalanced view of who he is... if you were interested...you may read "Gentle and Lowly" by Ortlund. Luke 15 still applies. Grace and peace to you.

[@He.knows.nothing]

They're all reinterpretations of the allegory of the cave. It's not so much that the matrix or the Truman show describe reality as it really is, but rather that they seek to describe the nature of the interactions between reality and human consciousness. I actually think Alvin Plantinga's argument against naturalism is almost all correct because we can't absolve ourselves of the cave, we didn't evolve to. In fact, I think we evolved to create the cave itself as a psychological tool that aids in our survival. Now, does that mean that we cannot trust the information we perceive through our limited senses? Of course not, that's where his arguments fail, but when leave a cave, doing so necessitates that we either find a new one, or begin to create our own. Sub conscious bias within our narratives is an inevitable phenomenon of perception, it's not something that we can do away with without holding our knowledge to standards beyond ourselves. The matrix describes this better than the Truman show, being that neo never finds the answers. On the contrary, he wholly submits himself to the machines who are in a matrix of their own creation. To be fair, I don't think the Truman show sought to explore this, rather its goal was to show people that the cultivation of skepticism can lead them to free their own wills from indoctrination. The matrix definitely takes this several steps further.

[@Golfinthefamily]

@@He.knows.nothing what is your evidence for us living in a simulation? And why does this lead us away from a deism worldview?

[@He.knows.nothing]

@@Golfinthefamily the simulations in the matrix and the Truman show are allegories for world view narratives. So it's not that I believe we literally exist within a simulation, but rather that our own minds produce these narratives themselves to organize our experiences into a consistent and comprehensible framework. These frameworks can develop into ideologies that transcend the individual and can directly or indirectly instigate biases that suppress free thought in regards to the nature of our existence in order to maintain their integrity, which can make us docile and complacent regardless of whether what we believe is true or not. Plato's allegory of the cave argues that free thought can allow an individual to break free from their shadow prison which allegorically describes the potential of an individual to apply skepticism and deconstruct their own indoctrinations.

[@redmed10]

If I could only see one miracle, just one miracle. Like a burning bush, or the seas part, or my uncle Sasha pick up a check.” - Woody Allen

[@Salv-lj8kj]

I don't think God is hidden. He is apparent every instant of every day in our conscious experience.

[@bendecidospr]

I feel like the topic really got away from everyone, here, from the very start. I wanted to hear more about divine hiddenness itself, which I take to be a question about, if God wants us to believe, and knows what it would take for us to believe, why doesn’t He make Himself known in such a way as to bring everyone (every non-resistant non-believer) to belief in Him? I feel they took too much time discussing related issues, but not the issue itself, especially toward the end where they spent far too much time discussing a proposition that neither of them agree with.

[@joannware6228]

If you can't believe in God it's not God's fault. It's absurd to put God and man in the same context and reveals a complete lack of imagination and perspective. "St. Augustine said that all of us, made from nothing, tend toward nothing. We can see this in our frailty and sin and mortality. St. Paul said, “What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?” To believe in God is to know these truths. To live them out is to live in the attitude of humility. Thomas Aquinas said humilitas veritas, meaning humility is truth. It is living out the deepest truth of things: God is God and we are not. Now, all of this sounds very clear when it’s stated in this abstract manner, but man is it hard to live out! In our fallen world, we forget so readily that we are creatures. We start to assume that we are gods, the center of the universe. The ego becomes a massive monkey on our backs, and it has to be fed and pampered constantly. What a liberation it is to let go of the ego! Do you see why humility is not a degradation, but an elevation?" Bishop Robert Barron ? "Daily Gospel Reflection (08/20/2022)"

[@bendecidospr]

@@joannware6228 See, this is what needed to actually be discussed in the video, and it wasn’t. It seems to me that you take the position that there is no such thing as a non-resistant non-believer. Meaning, anyone who does not believe in God is because they have something in themselves that does not allow them to believe. As such, there is nothing God can do to make them believe. That is precisely the core issue behind divine hiddenness.

[@lbamusic]

God does not bring everyone to believe in Him personally (salvation). But He does provide all the evidence of His existence by what we see in His magnificent celestial creations.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

Far, far too generic. Also, how does this help the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2... And what is a 'natural angel', ben benalu ...

[@chrissonofpear1384]

@ChristianRebel Narrow it down first - what IS the message of the Cross? And which church is closest to meeting it? And why is this form of restitution required at all, does it 'redeem' Deuteronomy 21:13 (for example) and why was Satan owed access to this world, at all? As well as why sin, ignorance and suicidal pride would arise in heaven at all (optional) And angels HAD spiritual discernment, yet one third of them could not discern basic spiritual facts, in heaven, pre revolt. So were they 'natural angels'? Even though, in contrast to 1 Corinthians 2:14, they - inherited - nothing, seemingly? And lastly, what is your view of John 14:12?

[@r00kiepilot]

Alex has come a long way. He makes a good point that philosophy may not be the best way to find God. A simple answer as to God’s hiddennes is that He is not hidden and the signs are all there, and that he is not revealing Himself directly because there is a purpose to life one of which is that it is a test. My advice to Alex is to learn about other disciplines particularly physics and Origin Of Life (OOL) research, don’t focus just on philosophy, and don’t focus just on theology and Christianity. Sometimes, for some people, looking for explanations (truth) is a multidisciplinary study. Also don’t expect God to give you a sign in the form of something miraculous or to talk to you directly. He has already given you many signs in your life but you probably didn’t notice them. They can be in small things like something turning out unexpectedly well for you or avoiding an accident etc. Philosophy and logic are important of course, but like mathematics, not all philosophical arguments even if logically consistent necessarily apply to the real world. Watch Prof Paul Davies lecture ‘where do the laws come from’. Questions such as why is there something limited rather than nothing or everything. Questions about information in living creatures and what is information. Questions such as what is the underlying indeterminacy at the foundation of quantum mechanics and seemingly reality. Is it really true lawless randomness, or is it indeterminate free will actions of God. Evidence is definitely there and the conclusion is clear, it just may require more study and taking a deep dive looking into details.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Or not.

[@jimm8619]

If deeply learning about biology and physics leads one to the religion in general and the Christian religion in particular, then why are most PhD level biologists and physicists agnostic / atheists?

[@IshaqIbrahim3]

Almost everybody in the world believed that a car can move him/her from one point to another. I wish religion is like this. 📚📚📚

[@tinymcgoo1195]

You wish religion could take you from home to the store? What do you mean?

[@IshaqIbrahim3]

@@tinymcgoo1195 Simple, Clear and easy to demonstrate.

[@christopherflux6254]

Absence makes the heart grow stronger

[@danielconway7190]

And never interacting with your children makes you a deadbeat dad

[@davidli1588]

@@danielconway7190 Hi Daniel. Do you come from a Christian background?

[@danielconway7190]

@@davidli1588 yup

[@manuelchukwudi]

God is not hidden. Man in his sinful nature suppresses the overwhelming truth and evidence God has given in nature, creation, and conscience (cf. Ps. 19 & Rom. 1). It is our rebellion that blinds us.

[@wynlewis5357]

How on earth does it make any sense at all, that all of mankind has to pay for what happened with two people in a garden 6,000 years ago ?

[@Adam-gl1qv]

@@wynlewis5357 It doesn't.

[@wynlewis5357]

@@Adam-gl1qv Hey, someone out there agreeing with me ! Why do you you think there's very intelligent people who believe in biblical mythology and do not break away from it. Do you think it's the subtle but very powerful effects of indoctrination[brainwashing] ?

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

@@wynlewis5357 It didnt make sense and doesnt make sense. I think hence why God sent his only begothen son Jesus Christ to wash away human's first sin and clean the slate. After that you are on your own. The thing with human being is we all have selfish gene in us. We all have posibility of good or bad. Same way that Adam And eve got the temptation nature. We can fall. Adam and Eve's son Cain killed his brother. to this day there are brother and sister killing each other. The sin has never washed away. They say God will provide a way out. By association with human kind we inherited that sin. I am sure there are a time where you gave into temptation and did things you think you should not have yet did it anyways.

[@wynlewis5357]

@@noorzanayasmin7806 All of what you have said is based on "faith", there is no evidence at all to prove any of it. There are 1000s of religions besides Christianity in the world so which way does one go ? The concept of God and religion are merely a cultural thing. What has caused you to believe in what you have just stated ?

[@japexican007]

One last thing: a third of the angels rebelled knowing God exists, why should God focus on “knowledge” as his primary means of bringing people to him when even all the knowledge and truth in the world won’t lead someone to have trust and faith in God, perhaps this is why that’s not Gods primary focus but rather those who are willingly to trust him despite all the lies and philosophical mumbo jumbo the false god of this world has put forth to confuse the masses in hopes that they will depart from God no matter how true God is. “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.” ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:18-31‬ ‭

[@ByGraceThroughFaith777]

I dare to exercise the possibility that Alex felt the presence of God in that room at some point. I don't know... but when he touched his hair after thinking that God might actually be using Him as a vehicle to bring many young atheists to His Kindom, man that felt like a realization moment for him from my point of view.

[@conordelaney76]

I think you're projecting your own wants/ beliefs/ feelings on to Alex here.

[@vinanddex]

The 'resistance' that the theists talk about is really critical thinking by another name. Some people are just constitutionally unable to put aside the fact that there is no evidence for a god.

[@cpt.kimintuitiondemon]

It's even nothing more than retaining a minimum of epistemological sanity.