Hellbound debate - Universalism vs. Eternal Torment vs. Annihilationism - Unbelievable?

For Unbelievable? the Conference 2013 www.premier.org.uk/jesus
Hellbound is the new movie by Kevin Miller which questions the traditional "eternal, conscious torment" view of hell and asks whether Universalism is actually taught in scripture.
Justin is joined by Kevin, along with Glenn Peoples who holds an "annihilationist" position, and Peter Sanlon who defends the traditional view.
They discuss whether questioning hell goes against evangelicalism, wheter evangelism is at stake and what most Christians really believe about hell.
For more discussion between Christians and non-Christians visit www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable
Join the conversation via Facebook / unbelievablejb and Twitter / unbelievablejb
For Hellbound www.hellboundthemovie.com
For Rethinking Hell www.rethinkinghell.com
For Oakhill College www.oakhill.ac.uk
Get the MP3 podcast of Unbelievable? ondemand.premier.org.uk/unbeli... or Via Itunes
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You may also enjoy:
Unbelievable? 23rd April 2011 - Rob Bell defends 'Love Wins' Rob Bell & Adrian Warnock debate
Unbelievable? 3rd March 2012 - Is hell annihilation or eternal conscious punishment? Chris Date & Steve Jeffery
Unbelievable? 17 Oct 2009 - The "Evangelical Universalist" is revealed - will everyone be saved? Robin Parry & Laurence M Blanchard

[@coryabouaf7713]

Annihilationism is the most balanced view on hell that exists on earth. I believed in eternal torment for 25 years. During my 30 years of walking with the Lord I've continued to increase my study, increase my dedication to the Lord and ministry as well as listening to His voice. This has resulted in letting go of traditional non-biblical views of baptism, communion, baptisms and eternal judgment, all in attempt to, rather hear the Lord, through deeper study of the scriptures, Greek and Hebrew and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit and sanctified logic. All this has lead me to understand God in an ever and ever growing relationship with the Lord and thus, increased ministry. During this same time, He has confirmed to me, and millions of others, that the traditional view on ETERNAL TORMENT is neither biblical, nor moral, nor logical. People who hang on to the traditional view are doing their best to not divert from TRUTH but unknowingly promoting a slightly twisted view of God. In the next century the Lord will continue to reform the Church from this evil doctrine!

[@coryabouaf7713]

Don't get me wrong. Hell still exists and scarier so, "The Lake of Fire" is real. But infinite torture for finite humans who are "mere mortal" and not immortal, cannot continue infinitely! All Christians know that God is the only "Immortal" and we only become immortal when we are clothed "with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality" (1 Cor 15:53 Not only that but the 2nd death is the END of death where "there will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Rev 21:4). As far as the best scripture that might suggests that there is "eternal torment", Rev 20:10 (where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever), there are several indications within the text that are problematic. Firstly, "day and night" will have an end when, "There will be no more night" (Rev 22:5). Then why does say "forever and ever". Actually it doesn't. It reads, literally, "for eons and eons" which means for ages and ages. The Greek "eon" and the Hebrew "olam" mean "unto the next age" and can only mean infinite when used to describe Him who is the only infinite One! Then why "eons and eons"? If eon meant infinite, why is it mentioned twice, separated by "and". This is a designation that shows that it will not just be a quick and easy death for the beast and the false prophet, and the devil since they deceived the whole world. In fact, this extended punishment occurs first, then the wicked are thrown in, Hence it doesn't mention eons and eons for the wicked. Eons and eons is no where found for the wicked who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire sometime (an eon) after the Satanic Trinity, But there is no question of what will occur to those things that are thrown in the hottest fire known - "They will be consumed" Psalm 92:7 Psalm 37:20, Nahum 1:10 Psalm 37:38 But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off - And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 2 Thes 2:8

[@davidford15]

"the traditional view on ETERNAL TORMENT is neither biblical, nor moral, nor logical" Indeed. Eternal torture is out. Also, I suspect that universal restoration is a better, more-Bible-supported alternative than annihilationism.

[@coryabouaf7713]

Tow Laro did u know that Sodom experienced eternal fire? But that eternal fire ended🔥? How so? Eternal is often translated into English as “forever”. However what it often means is “from the realm of the eternal”. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7. Not only that but the Hebrew “forever” “olam” also does not mean an infinite time period. Ex 21:6 the slave shall dwell forever “Olam” ... Olam and eon often is best understood as perpetual until death or destruction as with the death of the slave mentioned in exodus 21. How much more will the 2nd death end olam or eons? It was the Catholic Church that bought into the Plato theory that the soul was already “eternal infinite immortal”. However the judo Christian concept was only those who believe in and faithful to Him receive eternal life as a free gift. The wicked on the other hand are destroyed or as Jn 3:16 says “perish”

[@coryabouaf7713]

@@davidford15 I wish Universal restoration exists. I believe both that and eternal torture are both extremes. All through the OT, God discusses the destruction of the wicked just as Jn 3:16 says "that none should perish". However, the Catholic Church came grew within a nonjewish, nonhebrew PLATONIC GREEK world view. They had all sorts of torments that lasted infinite and no scriptures to back it up. Don't you think that their philosophy polluted Christianity. Then when translated into English such words like "eon" which is an undefined time period, was translated into "forever" which many extrapolate as "infinite". We both know that is incorrect. But to say that God does not destroy the wicked also equally contradicts so many OT scriptures: The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish! Ps 112:10 As smoke is driven away, so you shall drive them away; as wax melts before fire, so the wicked shall perish before God! Ps 68:2

[@JulesIvanCGaray]

Please make a Video then send me link, I want to believe in annihilationism because it seems to match God's character but I still need proof

[@Godrules]

The main problem that proponents of the "eternal torment" perspective have is believing that an Orthodox Universalist does not believe in Hell. If there ever was a strawman, that is it. Orthodox Universalists believe in Hell. They just don't believe it is torture or that it lasts forever.. They also don't believe a loving God needs to use torture or that a loving God thinks that torturing them forever will some how appease him.. So, the very act of trying to understand this makes God look like a tyrant.. When we all know he is "love". Love is patient, love is kind, but if you piss love off, he will torture you forever.. Is it just me or does this make no logical sense?

[@toddoman7198]

Godrules As a Universalist I can assure you I do not believe in hell in any way. It is a translated word meaning covering place and could only stand for the common grave. What do you mean by Orthodox?

[@toddoman7198]

I love when people throw the word heresy out there as if it has any meaning. Just because you saw it in the bible does not mean you get to now decide what is heresy. There is nothing I consider a greater honor that being called a heretic to organized religion and futurists. You don't really know when the book of Revelations was written, nobody does. Some say 90AD but others point to the fact that the temple is still there in the book so it would point to an earlier date. Not that it really matters it is such guess work as to when any of these books were written. I would advise you to look at some theological books such as The Key to Truth by Edwin Lake, or any by Hosea Ballou. You might also consider using Adam Clarkes commentary when reading. Beliefs change over time the more we learn and study.

[@toddoman7198]

Trevor Martin what about Gehenna? It's a dump outside the city where they burnt trash. That judgement you are talking about happened in 70 ad. Who in modern times does prophesy, or casts out demons or performs mighty works?

[@toddoman7198]

Trevor Martin Trevor I fear you are looking at the bible out of the ancient context it was written in. How can you be thrown in Gehenna...it does not exist anymore. Do you want God to rebuild the ancient city before the judgement? The second death is the the second death of the Jewish people. In order for there to be a second death there had to be a first death. Remember the people he is writing to were not dead yet and all things would be fulfilled in that generation. So you are saying people should just be Christian out of fear of some future punishment? If there was no future threat why would anymore be Christian? Good deeds are there own reward and I would suggest sins go punished in this lifetime.

[@toddoman7198]

+Trevor Martin Well Gehenna is not a metaphor, it is Hebrew for Gehinnom or Valley of the son of Hinnom. To the people who these books were written to, not you and I, it is a literal place. Unfortunately we are just to far apart in what we believe for this conversation to go anywhere.

[@christianwanderer6600]

Universalism has never been declared heretical by any Church council. Origen's theory that justified his version of universalism was condemned (it involved transmigration of souls), but universalism itself has always been affirmed as a legitimate possibility. It has never been the majority view, but nobody has been condemned as a heretic for affirming it.

[@logant9437]

Kevin"s comments around the 50 minute mark are unassailable. If we all REALLY believed in hell it would be impossible to think about much else in our ministry and personal relationships.

[@EmeraldPixelGamingEPG]

I think I agree. Something of that level would be too shocking and relevant due to the nature of death and the consequences.

[@emilykelly7453]

No, this isn’t true. All actual Christians DO believe in Hell because it’s in God’s word clear as day. However, most “Christians” are not actual Christians. Matthew 7. 1 John 2:4.

[@dustyfoxboy442]

@@emilykelly7453 you only believe in "hell" if you ignore the original text and discard Gods word.

[@The-Beyonder]

​@@dustyfoxboy442what original text and what of God's word is being discarded if you believe hell is real?

[@TyAnderson123]

Revelation 21:5 Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW - End of Subject.

[@graemegeorgeharrison2468]

I am not a well man, Ive suffered a lot of bad head traumas from the age of 4, I was in the military for 10years and had near drownings, and exposure to explosions, I left and resorted to excessive drug use, so whilst I have lived in Sin I have fully repented to the Lord, i also had cerebral malaria which nearly killed me, I am in constant physical and psychological pain and am close to the end, I hope my sins are forgiven

[@johnygoodwin3441]

If you repented and trust in Jesus as your lord and Saviour then absolutely you are forgiven and will be in His presence

[@oneskepticalguy781]

How brainwashed must some one be to believe that torturing or annihilating your children is a loving holy act?

[@shanestrickland5006]

An Infinit quality of brainwashing to put it simply.

[@michaelsayad5085]

​@@shanestrickland5006 1. The Bible teaches that only those who accept Christ's sacrifice are God's children: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12) "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." (1 John 3:10) 2. No one says that it is loving of God to punish human beings for their sin but it is just and the cross is where God's justice and love meet each other: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16) God is loving but he is also just and those who do not accept his sacrifice have so freely rejected God's gift of salvation. God gave this as a gift and many people freely rejecting that gift is not unloving on God's part. This is what scripture teaches and I recommend that you stop creating a caricature of the other side and then attacking that strawman. No Christians say that God's punishment of sinners is a result of his attribute of love but rather stems from his attribute of justice and this must be understood; non-believers are not children of God but rather the exact opposite.

[@opengates777]

YOU ARE A SCOFFER! A ROTTEN LIAR! 2Pe 3:3-14 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days SCOFFERS, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

[@danielb.1567]

the unsaved are NOT God's children. Only those who are saved by accepting His Son Jesus' death as a sacrifice for their sins are granted sonship. In fact he calls them sons of the Devil by saying "Your father, devil."

[@dogsdomain8458]

@@michaelsayad5085 how is it just to torture people for not believing jesus is the messiah? That doesnt make any sense.

[@PUAlum]

I apologize for making too many comments! But wanted just to add a word of appreciation for this program. I'll try to find other episodes .....and promise to exercise greater restraint. But the kind of polite discussion and gentle clash of views is very rare on this (US) side of the Atlantic. I wish our presidential candidates would take note and follow your approach! God bless....

[@keithwells3054]

Thank you for giving a platform for this important discussion 😊

[@bengorillachristiandude6438]

I've been back and forth between eternal torment and annihilation the past 10 years, but I have settled on annihilation. I was thinking recently about the contrast the Bible makes between perishing and having everlasting life, Old Testament parallels to what God's final judgment on the wicked will look like, and even terms such as "Second Death," "perish," "destruction of body and soul," etc., and it all just makes sense. I even tested the eternal torment definition in Bible verses such as John 3:16 and Romans 6:23, and it doesn't make sense. If eternal torment is true, then everybody already has everlasting life (which the Bible says is only granted to the saved by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ), and it's just a matter of not spending it in torment. Psalm 30:5 also tells us that God's anger is only for a moment, so wouldn't there be some contradiction if He is endlessly pouring His wrath out on the unsaved? God is just, but He is also merciful. That doesn't mean the unsaved will get a quick and easy death in the Lake of Fire. The destruction of body and soul will be a very tormenting process. They are cast into outer darkness, there is weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth, the fire is not quenched, the worm does not die, and there is no rest, day or night, until body and soul are consumed. Just imagine the despair of realizing that you wasted your life away and now you're perishing, for all eternity. Based on passages such as Luke 12:47-49, I believe the time and severity of torment will be measured out differently for every individual in accordance with their sins. God has said, in Proverbs 8:36, "all who hate me love death." Once their time is up, God will mercifully give them exactly what they wanted. Death. The most tragic thing about it though is once the unsaved are annihilated, they're gone. They're really gone, body and soul, for all eternity. They're never coming back. There are loved ones that we'll never see again. That's why God gave His Son Jesus though, because He loves us and He wants us to LIVE!!! Now I fully understand the meaning of Jesus coming to grant us everlasting life. Not just so that we can float away in spirit to paradise when we die, even though we do go directly into the Lord's presence after death, but so that we can one day be raised up in incorruptible, immortal bodies like the one Jesus has and never die again. As the Bible says, in Romans 6:23, "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

[@muscleprotein]

Universal salvation is the only one that makes sense and makes God loving and merciful. Eternal torment and annihilation make God a monster and not one I will follow. When we hear of torture it upsets us and we class it as inhuman! Yet we believe It's ok for God to do it? The is little love left in Christianity

[@1234567mrbob]

+muscleprotein If you think about it, the traditional view of Hell is not much different than the belief in the Jihad. It says that people who don't "believe" in Jesus.... and that can be based on any number of things like bad experiences with Christian leaders, bad parents, a bad experience in church, etc.... It teaches an us vs. them belief that the "other guy" is the bad guy who deserves severe punishment. According to Muslims who believe that, it's up to humans to execute that punishment by, for example, flying planes into buildings. According to Christians who believe it, God is the one who executes the same thing by throwing people into hell.

[@SwordofManticorE]

What I also find a strange coincidence of the doctrine of the muslim hell is that the Arabic word for hell is "Jahannam". It comes from the Greek word Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom). What does this say about the religion of islam and its origin to you?

[@JoaoFerreira-nw4yh]

it's comes from the satan the father of all lies

[@Sunsetdriver85]

muscleprotein I agree!! However, I would rather have Annihilation over eternal torment. At least God isnt allowing eternal torment, you know what I mean? But Universalism really allows God to be Loving

[@muscleprotein]

DarkX of course its the much lesser of two evils. Universal salvation doesn't mean people get off lightly either there will be punishment but its for the purpose of correction. Like what prison should be.

[@deskjockie49]

My understanding of what Rob Bell and Kevin Miller are saying is not that there is no hell, but that it is not forever. Since Christians believe that His death paid the price for everyone's sins, the price was paid. Therefore, it would be illogical for anyone to have to continue paying for their sins for eternity. The purpose of hell would then be a correcting and refining experience rather than a punitive one. Makes more sense to me.

[@emilykelly7453]

It makes perfect sense and describes all of Gods attributes perfectly, whereas eternal punishment does not. It makes zero sense.

[@bayreuth79]

Peter Santon says that the Infernalist position is the "traditional" one but what is traditional? Professor Ilaria Ramelli has demonstrated in a 800 page book that the Church Fathers believed in universal salvation and that that was orthodoxy until the end of the first millennium. Indeed, the greatest Church Father (St Gregory of Nyssa) was the most outspoken universalist. There is a very strong argument that St Paul believed in something akin to universal salvation as well (read Professor Tom Greggs). Moreover, the greatest theologian of the 20th century, Karl Barth, was almost certainly a universalist as well.

[@noeternalhell7924]

Its not in Gods nature. Its more tolerated by people than applauded. I use to believe it. The words 'eternal' and 'torment' can mean different things and do. Adam and Eve had to die because of their sin. Christ had to die for our sins .Eternal, firey torment is not the payment for sin, death is...ask Adam and Eve. Christ paid our payment. Peter says he went to hades and he preached to the spirits... who were there from back in the days of Noah. Also, Christ said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" for those whose crucified Him.... Did this forgiveness happen?...Yes of course.

[@droptozro]

noeternalhell Christ preached to the spirit(disobedient angels) after he was resurrected, not in Hades... Hades is the grave consistently through-out Scripture. Pay attention to the fact that it says "*after* being made alive by the spirit..." That's the resurrection. Jesus went to preach to the angels who disobeyed that he was their new ruler. Not to dead people.

[@god-is-eternal21]

***** 1 Peter 4:6 follows up on this;... these were dead; angels or demons don't die that we know of... so these aren't living angels.or demons... they were mankind. ... youre wrong.. the other guy was right. Who knows when Jesus did this... its not clear....but he was in the spirit; it sounds like....the Bible does say He led captivity captive.... maybe he just took them all to paradise and proclaimed His lordship to them..but not to angels. Bodies did raise from the graves..... This probably included all from Adam to Noah...but who knows.. this isn't clear. Peter probably had the question posed to him about those people back then. He may be reiterating from a sermon he preached. Christ probably raised all from Adam to his present day. It was a glorious time. What I think this represents is post mortem converson and All-saved; but only though Christ. Peter's mention of the Noah days includes both the 8 saved in the Ark and the disobedient of his day. perhaps this showing that Christ's death was for all time and this may have seemed to be the most unreachable of times for mankind

[@droptozro]

1 Peter 4:6 is referring to the "dead" as a people from the past, not a present living person who's in hades. That's reading into the text. As Paul said, even Abraham(Gal 3:8) heard the Gospel, and so did the Jews from the past well before Jesus(who are now dead). (Heb 4:2) I know when Jesus did this, it's in order--and the Greek supports it, AFTER Jesus was made alive by the spirit(his resurrection). Eph 1:20-23 also testifies that Jesus was made head, and likewise clearly Hebrews 1 wherein angels are told to bow down before him.

[@ob4161]

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God has appeared, giving salvation to all human beings".

[@ob4161]

@ベドケビン It didn't say "offering" salvation, it said "giving" salvation. If I give my father $100 then he will receive it. (otherwise I didn't really "give" it to him, only attempted to).

[@ob4161]

@ベドケビン Nope. Most of the language used to describe hell in the new testament ("gehenna" in greek) actually most likely refers to a finite place of purification. However, Romans 5:18: So, then, just as through one transgression came condemnation for all human beings, so also through one act of rightousness came a rectification of life *for all human beings.* 1 Corinthians 15:22: For just as in Adam all die, so also in the Anointed Christ *all will be given life.* 1 Timothy 2:3: ..our saviour God, who *intends all human beings to be saved* and to come to a full knowledge of truth. Titus 2:11: For the grace of God has appeared, *giving salvation to all human beings.* 2 Corinthians 5:19: Thus God was in the Anointed reconciling the cosmos to himself, not accounting their trespasses to them, and placing in us the world of reconciliation. John 12:32: And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, *will drag everyone to me.* John 12:47 for I came not to judge the cosmos, but that I might save the cosmos. Luke 16:16 Until John, there were the law and the prophets; since then the good tidings of God's kingdom are being proclaimed, and *everyone is being forced into it.* 1 John 2:2: And he is atonement for our sins, and not only for ours, but *for the whole cosmos.* Colossians 1:19-20: For in him all the Fullness was pleased to take up a dwelling, and through him to *reconcile all things to him,* making peace by the blood of the cross through him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens. John 3:17: For God sent his Son into the cosmos not that he might condemn the cosmos, but that the cosmos might be saved through him. Philippians 2:9-11: For which reason God also exalted him on high and graced him with the name that is above every other name, so that at the name of Jesus *every knee should bend* - of beings heavenly and earthly and subterranean -and *every tongue gladly confess* that Jesus the Anointed is Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Matthew 18:14: So it is not a desire that occurs to your Father in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish. 2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not delaying what is promised, as some reckon delay, but is magnanimous toward you, *intending for no one to perish,* but rather for all to advance to a change of heart. Hebrews 2:9: But we see Jesus, who was made just a little less that angels, having been crowned with glory and honour on account of suffering death, so that by God's grace he might taste death on *behalf of everyone.*

[@matthewmendez2394]

I- how

[@Rahner79]

"19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." - Colossians 1:19-20 "9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment-to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ." Ephesians 1:9-10

[@joshkenedy8828]

That is talking about the millennial reign of Christ on earth, NOT universalism

[@lja000]

So, in the end we would need a scholar to teach us what Jesus meant to say? If eternal damnation is the destiny of almost all people "made in the image of God", there should be clear and absolute teaching from the first book to the last book. Instead we have shaded stories and strange interpretations. Ordinary and unschooled people should be able to know the Creator as "The Word is written in our heart". Not have to sit under a scholar with years of training in his particular church's doctrine. Even the word hell, means grave. Boy, Dante did a great job! Mortal flesh and blood survive For eternity? Is this really what the Bible teaches?

[@davidmarshall3683]

Pretty much all Christians I've met believe you can be saved without realising which one of these 3 is correct its mainly about accepting that Christ paid the price to save our souls on the cross praying to the lord for redemption and living by Christs example as set out in the New testament.

[@Ravenghost123]

This proves that there are two resurrections. Not that the wicked will be given immortal bodies. If you claim that damnation means that they will be given immortal bodies, then give me the verse which says that!

[@cc-ln9pf]

Agree

[@_andreas_]

Just like we say in colloquial English, "you are in for a 'world' of hurt"... The word eternal in the kjb is sometimes translated as age and sometimes world... wonder why?

[@fastfootedone]

KJV is great for style (largely it's goal at the time) but not so much for accuracy.

[@gerontodon]

I disagree with the guy who said that universalism is a wussy way of making God a nice God. I think ultimate universal redemption is compatible with the idea that God is not mocked, and that he can be very cold if appropriate, even if you're 'really really sorry'. I sometimes think that's how the creator is to me. I think that it's bound to be the case that punishment sometimes *seems* unjust, whether it is or not. But I don't think that eternal agony can be appropriate punishment for anything.

[@austins.1068]

People can be wussy and tak themselves into it but it makes sense on its own either way. Why would God have people suffer forever? It doesn’t add up to the rest of what is taught about God

[@Jessman9000]

Annihilationism is the way to go people it fist how God is just and how he is mercy full!

[@emilykelly7453]

Lol, NO, it doesn’t. Creating creatures without the ability to not sin and then destroying them does not show mercy and it certainly doesn’t show love. It is wild to me that almost no one has put 1 and 1 together. The ONLY view that lines up with scripture AND ALL of God’s attributes is inevitable Universal Atonement. Period. Jesus sacrifice will still be sufficient for those in hell when they eventually break and cry out for God to save them. Furthermore, what kind of sick person thinks they’d be ok with knowing their own mother, father, son, daughter friend, or loved one is somewhere burning for eternity while theyre in paradise themself? It sounds good at first, but to know that for eternity…? C’mon, this isn’t rocket science. God is love. He is justice. He is mercy. Torture for eternity is not justice just like the death penalty isn’t justice for a 5 year old that stole a candy bar. If humans can get justice at least close to right, then I’m certain the one who made them will get it perfectly right.

[@storba3860]

​@@emilykelly7453 It has to be left open for some cases. Some people just genuinely would rather die than accept Jesus.

[@justin10292000]

​@storba3860 Yes, for NOW. No finite creature can hold out against God's infinite Love for an infinite amount of time.

[@soteriology1012]

What do you do when your pastor/teacher has one foot in the next state and another in the next country?

[@denissutherland3653]

Philippians 3 ; 19 " Their end is destruction. their god is their belly : that in which they glory is their shame. Men whose whole minds are earthbound."

[@seekerofalltruth3396]

AMEN!!!!!

[@kelseelovesgod7678]

Huh

[@johnclhugyugihjbvgbkj9729]

Serious question, because I'm a tradition salvation, Christian, as would be my description from this interview, what would a Universalists hell house look like?

[@davidford15]

I ditched never-ending torture and became an annihilationist, but more recently am moving in the direction of universalism. I find Melvin's scary account of his trip to hell credible. Hell looks like people suffering in ways similar to the ways they hurt others while living on earth.

[@kelseelovesgod7678]

@@davidford15 Can you comment a time stamp to his story of hell? Does he say it’s eternal

[@CoolStoryJo]

Universal salvation

[@zachary1077]

fuck you

[@Nerosii]

Psalm 72:8 you're not a real child of God are you?

[@seanchaney3086]

is a false teaching. (Revelation 14:9-11; 22:15)

[@nero0168]

Nah boys christian agnosticism is the way to go, just say "we don't know what parts of the bible have and have not been tampered with over the millennia" This is a joke btw, believe what you think is true

[@jamesmccluskey391]

@@seanchaney3086 early church fathers believed in universal salvation. Otis Ainsworth Skinner (1807-1861), A Series of Sermons in Defence of the Doctrine of Universal Salvation, Page 209, "Repentance is a means by which all men are brought into the enjoyment of religion, and we do not expect any man will be saved while he continues in sin. The reason why we hold to universal salvation is, we expect all men will repent." For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[@moonpye9082]

How do I get the movie hellbound?

[@ravissary79]

Well at least it's an informative and cordial talk.

[@stewbeefdamastamind5719]

Read lamentations 3:31-33...... " for no one is cast off by the lord forever, though he brings grief.he will show compassion so great is his unfalling love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone".

[@Mrm1985100]

CONTEXT. Please read who it is talking about. It is about those that HOPE IN THE LORD: The Lord is good to those whose hope is in him, to the one who seeks him; 26 it is good to wait quietly for the salvation of the Lord. 27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke while he is young. 28 Let him sit alone in silence, for the Lord has laid it on him. 29 Let him bury his face in the dust- there may yet be hope. 30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him, and let him be filled with disgrace. 31 For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. 32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. 33 For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone.

[@PUAlum]

did Kevin answer the question about his own beliefs? I.e. does he ever question or doubt his universal-ism? I heard him asked but he seemed to veer a bit off topic and lament rigid views in religion and politics.

[@TheMasterWanker]

Can anyone help me locate Robert Mary Maxine hymn???? Talked about around 52 minutes in?

[@harrodsongs]

I believe it's "When this Passing World is Done" by Robert Murray McCheyne, taken from a longer poem called "I am a Debtor."

[@soteriology1012]

What do they do with the near death experiences where people went to hell and back? Like the series of Maurice Rawlings who appeared on John Ankerberg. All it takes is one or two eyewitnesses to win a case.

[@justin10292000]

@soteriology1012 Yes, Hell is very real and an absolute necessity, and most people go there. The issue is whether its eternal with no end purpose, or if it's tailored to bring each unregenerate sinner to true repentance in a certain amount of time, either to being annihilated or to being fully restored to our Creator.

[@pdxtravis]

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. The total victory of Christ has the answers to universal reconciliation, and it’s biblical, the word Aionon is used for ages past and future, and that’s the word they used for eternal.

[@jmckasyru]

As with everything, one's hermeneutics determines what one believes.

[@spiritof6986]

Absolutely.

[@agapeleone5847]

I gotta be honest much love, cool talk and all but I was hoping for more biblical engagement and use of verses.

[@oneskepticalguy781]

Your right, only those who confess Jesus Christ is Lord! So based on revelation 5:13, which creature does not confess? 13 "Then I heard EVERY creature in HEAVEN and on EARTH and UNDER the EARTH and on the SEA, and ALL THAT WAS IN THEM, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

[@deeveevideos]

@joashscottofficial but if you confess Jesus Christ is Lord you are saved. And then every knee shall bow in heaven on Earth and under the Earth and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is lord. That sounds like everyone will be saved then.

[@christianwanderer6600]

One last point. It also helps to acknowledge the fact that we can, should, indeed must, pray for those who have departed. It is arbitrary and unjust (and unbiblical) to say that physical death represents the final opportunity to repent and be saved. However, God's gift to us of free will demands that we be free to reject him, so Hell must always be an option (though we can all pray for its ultimately being empty).

[@logant9437]

The commentary that suggests that the fruit of the Westboro church is what you get when Christians TRULY believe in hell is also right on target. Well said!

[@TheHumbuckerboy]

This discussion only seemed to scratch the surface of the subject .

[@iProPipe]

TheHumbuckerboy trust me, I’ve studied this for a little less than a year and it would take several hours to even lay the foundation of universal reconciliation.

[@johnclhugyugihjbvgbkj9729]

TheHumbuckerboy and I scratched my head.

[@wilts8965]

true. and that is very annoying

[@thisperson6655]

@@iProPipe do you believe universalism?

[@QuinnEdwards1]

Having a monetized commercial every three minutes is either a mistake or completely greedy.

[@opengates777]

Tough question for you. Why did Jesus say remember Lot's wife?

[@Doomblade3890]

For context, this is Lot's wife from Genesis 19, who turned to watch the destruction of Sodom after being instructed not to do so by the visiting angels, correct? I'm reading your reference to Lot's wife and the specific chapter/verse is Luke 17:32. For additional context I read Luke 17:20-37 (NKJV), and the message I'm getting is that Jesus reminded us to remember Lot's wife since she turned to look back at the destruction of Sodom instead of fleeing. Likewise, Jesus stated "In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back." (Luke 17:31, NKJV). The moral of the story I'm receiving is that when the day of the Son of Man arrives, we should not turn back to our earthly doings of this thing or that thing, but instead immediately "flee" from such things and run towards Jesus (as I'm typing this response out, I'm starting to wonder if the hills that Lot and his family were running towards could also be interpreted as a metaphor for Jesus [e.g. a safe haven, a place to escape the impending destruction from]). If I'm missing the point altogether or am getting only part of it right, please let me know. I'd like to read what you think these verses mean.

[@colinmurphy6000]

@@Doomblade3890 Jesus said remember Lot's wife just after he said sinners will be destroyed by fire and brimstone when he is next revealed in the last days.

[@myway11188]

Love wins anyways. ☺

[@YourIndoctrination]

I think universalism is more biblical. .but only the way the orthodox church teaches it.

[@zadokite9692]

Everything in the New Testament should be found in the Old Testamemt...were did God prescribe a literal eternal torment of hell as punishment in the Law of God in the OT?

[@davidford15]

"Everything in the New Testament should be found in the Old Testamemt" I disagree. Over time, there's been more and more revelation about God, and hence, there is knowledge in the NT that's not in the OT.

[@seanchaney3086]

Daniel 12:2; Isaiah 66:24

[@shanestrickland5006]

@@seanchaney3086 Are you even aware that everytime hell is used in the OT its the word sheol ? Which historically means unseen and was sometimes used to refer to the grave . Plus every time forever was used its from olam and the vast mojority its things it later on said was not forever. Olam or owlam means an age era generation or eon.

[@seanchaney3086]

@@shanestrickland5006 Hades (LXX), Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna...whatever you would like to say, the souls reserved for Judgment are being tormented as you read these words, and at the end of time, Death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire. The Saints are with God right now, until Resurrection. God is God of the Living.

[@shanestrickland5006]

@@seanchaney3086 Last time i checked both the wicked and the sanits are kept until Judgement in Sheol /Hades. Plus the bible in the original manuscripts only deal with puishment for an age not eternity. You have to sets of life the saints get eonion life and then eternal life after Christ abolishes death. Hades can be translated as death or the grave. The same thing is true for sheol but literally means unseen. In context of revelations 20:10 the proper context of Hades is death. Let me ask you something how do you throw death in a literal lake of fire ? Most of the bible is not meant to be taken literaly. Christians accuse atheist of taking things literaly that was never meant literaly but you guys make the same mistake. The the meaning of torment in revelations 20:10 is testing because it comes from the greek word basanos. This word means a touchstone which was used to test precious metals for purity. This same word basanos has been used in mathew to describe a ship being tested by the sea. But most bibles even in this case translates basaons to torment. How can a ship be tormented ? Your mainstream bibles interpret in their translations such as the kjv niv or nasb and miss the full context of the greek. Everyone has eternal life but eternal life starts after christ aboloshes death. Before christ aboloshes death you have eonion life and eonion death. As in when Christ is rulling the wicked will be dead not alive.

[@jeplarson6519]

thank you so much

[@johnclhugyugihjbvgbkj9729]

I said out loud, “Bob Larson.....I would!” the speaker's view of Bob’s view on demons not wanting to go cast out to hell, ”the pit” as BL says.

[@spiritof6986]

But how do they escape in the first place? Not very well guarded?

[@renethomas5757]

When I was at school, if we did something naughty and tried to justify it by saying so-and-so told us to do it, the teacher would say, "If they told you to stick your hand in the fire, would you do it?" Wouldn't it make more sense for teachers to instruct children to stick their hands in the fire, so the kids would learn what they might eventually be facing, and perhaps start to get used to it?

[@GregS4Jesus]

I spent years looking into this before accepting the Christian Universalist position. The argument that God messes up and creates billions of souls who cannot be taught that Jesus is their savior is ridiculous. If God wants to use the afterlife to teach them about Jesus He certainly can if He wants to, no one can stop Him! Jesus came to seek and to save those who were lost, the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world, the Father loves the Son and has given all into His hands, Jesus said all that has been given to me will come to me, and those who come to me I will by no means cast out, Jesus said if He is lifted up He will drag all people to Himself, Jesus could appear to everyone of us and like Thomas show us His hands and feet, show us miracles, etc. He can give us a new heart and a new spirit, the Bible says. He desires all to be saved the Bible says. He will do all that He desires, the Bible says. All creation will worship God, Rev. 5:13, the Bible says. The case is so clear it is shocking mainstream Christianity has so messed this up for so long. The secular ruler, Justinian called together a church council by force, and pushed them to denounce Origen and some of his teachings, which was misinterpreted to denounce all forms of Biblical Universalism, even though it actually did not. This secular ruler, the Emporer of the Roman empire, forced the teaching of eternal hell on the church, through this council, then he was trying to enforce the teaching that Jesus never actually came in the flesh, but he was prevented from succeeding with this because he died. He was the one most responsible for denouncing Christian Universalism, and he tried to force the entire church into a clear heresy! The Bible says "I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." This is exactly what Justinian was trying to enforce on the whole church!!! And he is the one most responsible for establishing eternal hell as the mainstream position, through this mixed up denouncement in the 5th Ecumenical council! Here are a couple of quotes - " It is difficult to reject the consensus view - that Justinian did indeed issue an edict imposing aphthartodocetism... all indications suggest that Justinian pursued the enforcement of his edict until his death." " they were called "aphthartodocetists," because they believed the body of Christ to be a mere appearance, and consequently not corruptible."

[@AllInForYah]

Gosh I hope you're right. Otherwise I'm doomed.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

What about Judas?

[@gerontodon]

If that's true, then it's got to at least be possible that hell is eternal for some people- unless God compels people not to exclude him, which would be going against their free will. I don't know too much about this debate really, but if the universalist view is that everyone is ultimately redeemed by their own free will, then how could God ensure that they do that? Is the idea that it's just in human nature to eventually turn to God, but some hold out for longer?

[@emilykelly7453]

A true believer in Universalism doesn’t believe in free will on this earth because they’re 4 point Calvinists. We are either enslaved by sin or enslaved by God with the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ. God chooses some to save on earth but allows others to endure their punishment. Then, God will inevitably empty Hell as each human finally breaks from their shame and their guilt and calls out to him for forgiveness.

[@god-is-eternal21]

Why is eternal torment allowed to be believed by the Church as a whole? Because it is closer to the truth than Annihilation. But the truth is; All will be saved (through Christ) "Yet; so as; by fire.

[@timsharpe6652]

All will be ultimately saved.. Plain heretical teaching clearly. How about in Matthew 7 13 -14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

[@Nicole-jc6wu]

my question of this verse is, is it implying to our walk of life or our salvation? Because I can be walking the broad road to destruction in this life, but still accept Jesus as my savior. So what exactly is this verse implying to, because it doesn't specify if it's talking about salvation

[@soteriology1012]

This is a topic that rightfully should be debated & fought to the death amongst gifted professional Christian spiritual leaders to the very death of all others. This is not something that should ever be debated from the grass roots in people like me or laymen. Pray that the spiritual leaders, those that are skilled in the spiritual disciplines, would settle all their doctrinal differences. They should lay every jot and tittle out on the table & reveal all their sources & connections. Pastors Evangelists & teachers PLEASE Stop creating endless war & division amongst the grass roots!

[@davidford15]

"This is not something that should ever be debated from the grass roots in people like me or laymen" Ridiculous.

[@MaxAmoeba]

I think we are beginning at the wrong spot here and need to approach the "us vs them" question first. For the one who has never had a chance to here the gospel both eternal torment and annihilism are unjust. God's eternal saving nature manifested in Christ provides a path or all who seek the truth regardless of titles and names. Enoch was translated, Abraham believed God and it was counted as righteousness and Job said "I know my redeemer lives". All point to faith in God's love outside

[@toddoman7198]

+Eric Madden Unfortunately just because you say something is heresy doesn't mean anything. You are confusing yourself with Paul. It's simply goes against what you believe is orthodoxy. You believe preterism is a heresy doesn't make it so... Especially since it's correct. There is absolutely no way of knowing when when any biblical text was written, they are not dated. So if believe in a 90 ad writing you can do that but you can't put a quantifiable percentage of that being correct, it's simply what some scholars believe.

[@christianwanderer6600]

On this view, it is better to describe the fate of the sinner in Hell as self-imposed eternal conscious anguish, the anguish of living in your own filth, with nothing to satisfy your sinful impulses or your spiritual ones. In other words, the opposite of heaven, where your physical and spiritual senses are fully engaged, and although never sated, continually plenished. This fits better with the biblical view of God as loving every last human being and our having the choice to reject his love.

[@talkinghead3]

"Near" Death Experiences is not the same thing as being dead! The brain is still alive during NDEs which lends to all sorts of visions, hallucinations, etc. Also, the Bible says clearly the when one dies, they are in a total state of non-existence and will remain that way until the resurrection / resurrection(s).

[@CherryFrog321]

Near death experiences certainly can't be proof of what the afterlife is like, anyway. If they were, then everyone would have the same experience. If Christianity is the true religion, and eternal torment is a true doctrine, then it would be pretty simple...Christians would see heaven and meet Jesus in their NDEs, and everyone else would see hell. But people have had vastly different NDEs. Some have seen gods from other religions, and some haven't even seen any deity or aspects of any religion. Some Christians have reported having hellish NDEs, while some non-christians/non-religious people have reported having very pleasant and peaceful NDEs.

[@JosiahFickinger]

@@CherryFrog321 Yes because for all we know, Satan could just be deceiving people's eyes.

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

Quite. Hallucinations are common, not to mention that a Hindu who has an NDE will see hindu gods, a muslim Mohammed welcoming him to paradise and so on.

[@PUAlum]

Is the Roman Catholic view close to universalism? i.e. in their view, will not Purgatory purge the vast majority of souls from their sins and make them presentable for eternal life in glory? Maybe after millennia of suffering? If that's true, they may believe in a wider grace than do most Calvinistic fundamentalists who promote what they call (perhaps ironically) the "doctrines of grace".

[@fredbmurphy]

The Roman Catholic view is eternal soul separation of God, of a possible point of no return: eternal solitary confinement.

[@jcpocket9503]

Fred Murphy is right! (I love saying that) However I think it's worth mentioning that the original christians were universalists (this can be backed up in history). In fact the word "catholic" means "universal". So if you were a follower of "the way" in those days and someone wanted to distinguish them self in their beliefs the mainstream church in that day(who most believe the fathers were a part of) essentially distinguished themselves by calling themselves the "universal" christians, or the catholics in other words. You don't start seeing hell talk for several centuries later and that's lead by government officials or appointments to the church by said government, I think that teaching God is going to forgive you in the end is a hard message to hold on to as an institution which relies on your fear for obedience.

[@alexpukay]

here is the thing with motivating people to eternal life and having eternal torment in your theology. If you tell people about all love God has for them and all the bliss he made for them in heaven and also tell them if they don't really care about this life and accept Him then they will be tortured forever it set God up as threatening. let's say I can give my wife the best house and the most love and all the vacations and everything she ever wanted but there is a caveat that if she does not want to stay with me I will torture her beyond her wildest dreams. U know when we see a dictator in this world we don't just submit to him cuz he is the ruler. same happened to me when I was an atheist. I thought even if there a God that wants to torture people forever then there surly a way our of that and there will be a God bigger that this monster God and will save us in end. I though being an atheist does not deserve being tortured forever. what have I done God so bad by not believing in Him that he gets so pissed to torture me. to me it sound more like an insecure God who can't show himself to all but what's them to blindly believe or else...

[@kelseelovesgod7678]

Soooo then what do you believe?

[@edgarmorales4476]

Even though God is behind creation, that doesn't mean that God is behind everything that happens within creation. Since certain creations, such as ourselves, have been given free will and are capable of being creators in our own right; including creating suffering for ourselves and others. This particular misunderstanding, that God is causing our suffering and perhaps punishing us, is one of the most dangerous misunderstanding promoted by religious teachers; for how can we become free from suffering if we don't understand what's causing it? As long as we believe that lie, we will blame God or others, or our circumstances for our suffering and not see that we are the ones responsible for our suffering. Our mistaken thinking, and the negative emotions and negative actions that flow from our thoughts causes our suffering. Depending on what we choose to believe, and how we choose to respond to life; we create more Love in the world or the opposite. When we choose to express the opposite of Love or cause harm, it is not God that is at fault. God gifted us with the freedom to choose and to create, and we eventually learn from our choices to be better creators; to create happiness instead of suffering, and it is suffering that teaches us this; suffering points us away from what is anti-life, anti-Love. Our own personal suffering is the so-called "punishment" we receive for making choices that are not aligned with Love; that is the only "punishment", if we will, meted out by God. We are designed to suffer whenever we miss the mark, which is the meaning of sin; the mark, the target or goal, is Love. We suffer whenever we fall out of alignment with Love. Suffering and joy are part of the guidance system we've been given; the homing device, which when followed, will bring us back home to Love. Suffering tells us that we are believing a lie or taking a wrong direction; while joy tells us the opposite. If we don't want to suffer, then we must stop believing or doing what causes us and others suffering; and start believing and doing what brings peace, Love and joy.

[@simonthompson2764]

One thing I cannot understand. If people do believe in ECT, why aren't they everyday, at every opportunity, preaching the gospel and warning people like Ray Comfort does. Obviously either don't care about them or they don't believe in ECT. There you go!

[@montyburnsgaming3609]

I think Annihilationism is most fair. Under eternal conscious torment the majority of people will be tormented forever and even the nicest atheist will suffer forever. At the other extreme, with universalism, even Hitler, terrorists and child rapists will get into heaven. Temporary punishment followed by annihilation (capital punishment) is the most just option imo.

[@YirmeyahuWeeps]

Scripture, logic, morality, ethics, & love itself exclude eternal torment or annihilation, & soundly affirm eventual universal redemption for ALL people.

[@austins.1068]

@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC very arrogant, very distasteful not very kind. I’d rather follow in his steps than yours. You honestly just sound like an ass. Not setting a great example for your beliefs

[@philipthomas796]

Universalism, Eternal Torment, and Annihilationism can all be backed up by the Bible, so really which one you believe is really how you want God to judge people and where the Holy Spirit is leading you to believe. You have to ask yourself, if God deems you unworthy in the end, which belief would you want to be true because On that day *many* will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in *your name*?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers'"?

[@JustinBlastoff]

There’s so many verses talking about the endlessness of Hell, yet Ecclesiastes says the grave is “consciousless” thanks for the video I’ll think about this

[@emilykelly7453]

No, there aren’t “so many” verses that describe Hell’s endlessness. There are a handful and none of them explicitly describe the term of punishment as endless.

[@JustinBlastoff]

@@emilykelly7453 Yeah you might be right. I don’t know much about hell

[@horustrismegistus1017]

The "grave" is a pit stop. Judgement is AFTER the grave. Eternity is after judgement.

[@horustrismegistus1017]

@Emily Kelly Wrong. I really can't stand bold speech that is so effortlessly swatted away. You did NOT do the research, yet spoke as if you were a well-read authority. Matt 25:46 2 Thess 1:8 2 Thess 1:9 Rev 14:11 Rev 20:10

[@gerontodon]

I could be wrong though, not preaching to anyone. I'm not a Christian so I guess that biases me not to want to believe in eternal hell. The concept of hell does feature in other religions of course, even Buddhism.

[@CBALLEN]

What?I thought you denied the bodily resurrection in eternal bodies for the wicked as the scriptures affirm,how can Hell be eternal if there are no eternal bodies of the wicked to be tormented for eternity?The Bible uses the same word for the bodily resurrection of the lost as it does for the saved.

[@shokannon1806]

If your idea of salvation is hell insurance.. good luck on ya. Christs doctrine is based on our life here and now. The fall is humanity's deluded state. We have all fallin victim to a delusion. God removes these delusions so that we can finally see sin for what it really is.

[@colinmurphy6000]

1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. Heb 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! Heb 12:10They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. Heb 12:11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Heb 12:12Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. Heb 12:13"Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. Heb 12:14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. Now read the conclusion of your message, let Jesus speak. Let God be true and every man a liar. V Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

[@holzmann-]

amen

[@simonthompson2764]

The ETC guy is wrong when he uses the example of the unproductive servant in the parable of the talents to suggest hell's use in evangelism. This person is a BELIEVER who has failed to use his gifts effectively. Furthermore, in the parable of the sheep and goats, the goats are cast out of the Kingdom of God not because of unbelief, but failure to act in kindness to those in need. Pity the Bible is so often used incorrectly leading to massive false teaching, even by those who pretend knowledge. Please embrace universalism as the only teaching that matches the fullness of the atonement.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

I recommend the Rethinking Hell channel that goes deeper or even the video by "UNLEARN the lies" about this topic which is easier to understand

[@soteriology1012]

The largest danger in all of this is that we keep getting closer & closer to that old atheist/pagan retort, "You can prove anything from the Bible."

[@davidford15]

I bet it's true that one can indeed 'prove' just about anything using the Bible.

[@logant9437]

Bottom line, the stakes are SO high for believers in eternal torment that rational thought, behavior, emotions, and even discussion is nigh impossible. If I truly believed that I WOULD be taking my youth group kids to strange / conjured up / fear instilling events to scare them away from even the possibility of doubt. The belief in eternal torment creates a nonstop fight or flight response among believers. That is an exhausting emotion to face every single day. See Salem Witch trials...

[@talkinghead3]

The dead only exist unto God. No one can escape His presence, even in unconscious "sleep" which is the metaphor Paul used.

[@pigsfood27]

We are not all of God's children.

[@johnclhugyugihjbvgbkj9729]

pigsfood27 We are only because we’re made in His image but some aren't invited to be in His House. Some are bastards at Judgment.

[@spiritof6986]

Everyone interprets scripture according to their own particular mindset. Or else,they allow others to interpret scripture for them and don't ever really study for themselves.

[@danjones9999]

You’re all missing the point! Eternal torment is not inflicted by God, it is self inflicted by each person’s free choice.

[@soteriology1012]

We should be all given a tool to trace back all Christian beliefs to their origins. We should have their raw grammatical arguments for every word like voice mood case tense etc. We should be able to trace their arguments back to the figures of speech. Genre etc We should be able to trace all history language grammar.We should have a chart of where differing doctrinal paths diverge arranged like a tree & know why. We should have a standard method of rating the strength or weakness of any doctrinal stand. We should be able to go over the arguments of the Church fathers. Without a system we can hold no Christian convictions.

[@johnclhugyugihjbvgbkj9729]

Leave his post? Maybe he should be kicked out off it.

[@johnclhugyugihjbvgbkj9729]

34:35 or so, purgatory come in anywhere? Creeds should line up but aren't the bible itself.

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

Purgatory is entirely false doctrine. It's not biblical.

[@oneskepticalguy781]

Please read it again. 1) It says "EVERY CREATURE" 2) "The Lamb" means they believe in Jesus and his sacrifice on the Cross! 3) "AND ALL THAT WAS IN THEM!" means it was not just from their mouths, but with ALL of their being! "no one can say"Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit" (1Cor.12:3) "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for ALL, to be TESTIFIED in DUE TIME" (1Tim 2:3) Perhaps the dead sinners can be saved too!

[@55dengen]

Oneskeptical Guy no one can say Jesus is Lord but by the Spirit and we know one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God.

[@Ravenghost123]

Unlike you, I do not claim to know the truth about Hell. However I lean towards anihilationism, because I think The Bible does as well. People like you, who comes up with claims WITHOUT PROVIDING VERSES for those claims push me further that way... There are a few verses (Mark 9, Matt 25 and Rev 14) which may be a problem for anihilationism. However, there are more verses that are problem for traditionalists

[@christianwanderer6600]

There are two aspects of the "torment" view, at least as it is modernly held, that make it unappealing. First, the idea that God Himself participates in the torturing is horrifying (also unbiblical). Second, the idea that God Himself desires / designs / wants / intends people to end up in a state of eternal conscious torment. The way out of this is to affirm the ancient Christian view that God wants all to be saved and that Hell amounts to the self-exlusion of the sinner from the love of God.

[@justindavis2711]

In which case, that would leave open the opportunity for people to change their mind.

[@christianwanderer6600]

That doesn't follow.

[@thisperson6655]

They never gave any proof for any view, just a simple discussion about it

[@jasonjackson3114]

You can't say eternal torment for the billions of unbelievers and the other members of religions is ok, while at the same time claim Jesus/God is loving and the Bible teaches a loving doctrine. However, eternal torment is what the Bible teaches full stop.

[@KKKaTTT123]

The single most obvious point is that if eternal hell were true, Jesus would be a hypocrite in his teachings on the sermon on the mount. And Jesus is no hypocrit, God forbid, we all know how much he detested hypocrites. May Jesus forgive us and drag us to him no matter if it burns sometimes.

[@soteriology1012]

This is a SERIOUS subject. No matter what you pick, any error can hold terrible consequences for time &eternity.

[@soteriology1012]

My Christian faith was nourished in a strong dispensational OSAS belief system for over 40 years. Then the pastor later got into partial preterism, annihilation-ism & a form of trinitarian universal-ism. I left and do not know where to go.

[@verdevalley1966]

Rev.14:11--everlasting torment-what does everlasting mean? what does torment mean.? end of subject...

[@CoolStoryJo]

maxwell williams If you look at Greek translations it doesn't teach eternal torment, it teaches more of an age of discipline. This is one of many sources that disproves eternal/everlasting torment www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html

[@orestessamolis8498]

Being DEAD means eternal punishment, you could have been chillin in a garden with friendly lions and Jesus, but instead of that you will have EVERLASTING TORMENT and not experience this.

[@JoaoFerreira-nw4yh]

revelations 14:11 doesn't say that, you made a wrong quote

[@Nerosii]

this just says smoke of their torment. its the same image used to describe the destruction of a city in genesis?.. it does not say they will be tormented forever and ever.. as well, if you look into the Greek it says ages of ages.. either meaning until the end of the ages. or a long finite time. also Gods punishment leads to peacable fruits of righteousness.. and! get this.. God is pleased when people turn from their unrighteousness..and it says God will do everything that pleases him..

[@Mrm1985100]

Maybe read it in context. It's describing the judgments in history in Rev. 16 NOT eternity.

[@christianwanderer6600]

Says you. Universalists have no shortage of biblical citations to support their view. If you like, you can play Bible tag with one. I always find such debates between bible-onlyists amusing.

[@christianwanderer6600]

@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC You are responding to a 7-year-old comment. It begins with "Says you", so I imagine I was responding to someone else, but since Google doesn't let me see the "parent" comment, I have no way of knowing the context. All that to say that I don't know how to respond to you, but I suspect that this would be apt: "You're probably right. Thank God."

[@pjdelucala]

If you believe that God judges and punishes then you are turning your back on what Jesus taught about God. He taught that God is unconditional love. He taught and practiced to turn the other cheek, to not resist and evil person, to love your enemies, to walk two miles when compelled to walk one, forgive others, and he gave us the two great commandments. Look to the story of the Prodigal Son to understand the true nature of God. Jesus taught that you shall do even greater things than him because the Christ power is in everyone. Hell is a state of being. Heaven is a state of being. The kingdom of heaven is within you. The kingdom of hell is within you. You create your own hell but like the Prodigal Son, you can turn things around through choice. Unfortunately, Christians are still more comfortable with the Old Testament God who is hostile and vengeful. That God aligns more with what they believe. Unconditional love takes practice and a high degree of energy. Christians don't think they can do it, so they instead prefer the idea of a short-cut and focus on the idea of a blood human sacrifice. Our father never wanted any blood sacrifice; animal or human. God is unconditional love. God has no need to be appeased.

[@MaxAmoeba]

of the NAME of Christ or the physical act of sacrifice on the cross. God judges the heart so I believe that all three points are in part correct. Many more will be saved than the orthodox Christian expects. Others who have understood God but have hardened their hearts tworads Him will find Hell. Those who have hearts of wood will in differing times be annihilated depending on how hard the heart has become (as cedar compares to oak). Those with hearts like stone will remain indefinitely.

[@Ravenghost123]

That second point of yours, is also known as calvinism...

[@christianwanderer6600]

For information about Christian universalism, just google "Christian Universalism". You will find Web sites devoted to the promotion and denigration of the view.I leave for homework the task of researching the biblical basis for these competing views. You will find that both sides stand on equal footing, unhinged as they are from the historical Church. Both groups will accuse the other of "infidelity" to Christ and / or the Bible. It's a classic case of bible tag between bibliolators.

[@justin10292000]

ECT adherents: Stop strawmanning Trinitarian Restorationism!!!

[@oneagleswings8456]

This was distressing to listen to, really disappointed in the discussion, hardly any back and forth on scripture and debating passages, and thought Peter was soft in this discussion, it's offensive and blasphemous to God and such a deception to erase this crucial element of the Christian message

[@pigsfood27]

You must BELIEVE IN Him, and put your trust in Him, in order to be saved. Confessing that Jesus is Lord is not enough. James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. The verse you gave to me was describing an event even before God's last judgments come (the seven seals, trumpets, bowls, the four horsemen). Clearly there are still men who will not confess that Jesus is Lord. Perhaps the "creatures" it describes are not humans?

[@shanestrickland5006]

So if you dont love God he will hurt you. Dude that sounds like an abusive asshole husband that beats the shit out of his wife and kids. Then says but i love you so much.

[@SspaceB]

There is no Biblical defense for Universalism at all. In fact, you only find contradiction to that position. Universalism is only a plea to human ideas of ethics and fairness, not a Glorious God.

[@1234567mrbob]

+Stephen Bower (Secret Knowledge) So your "glorious" god is someone who tortures and torments living, feeling human beings for eternity? Love your definition of "glory"!

[@SwordofManticorE]

That is correct. Universalism contradicts your inaccurate English bible, but it is the Gospel in the original Greek scripture.

[@TheBlueCream]

u obviously don't know anything about Greek

[@1234567mrbob]

Who? Me? I never said I knew Greek. However, there are authorities on this topic who do know Greek, who have pointed out word inconsistencies between what Jesus actually said and what has been translated. The point is, at some point you have to reconcile within yourself a God who loves people and a God who throws them into eternal hell. Some people have a life-long struggle with that. Searching for clues in Bible translations to try to solve this puzzle is one method. At least these people are searching for answers.

[@SwordofManticorE]

Billy James And how did you come to the conclusion that it is obvious?

[@fredbmurphy]

Thank you fire and brimstone Protestant religions; I now want to go to Heaven for no other reason then I don't want to burn in hell. God makes man in His own image: conversely, doesn't that mean you people would eternally burn criminals if you could?

[@Donna-vh5ym]

Fred Murphy // you can't be serious. I wouldn't want my worse enemy, and right now, that would be the man who murdered my son....I wouldn't even want him burning in torture. AND thats exactly why they have the hell Doctrine....to scare you. Do you really love your creator, or are you just scared of the man made alternative.?

[@fredbmurphy]

Donna Bowman sometimes I seriously debate and sometimes I just sarcastically troll.

[@lc2077]

Donna Bowman Donna, I’m so sorry for the amount of pain this must have caused you. I hope you have been able to find some peace. I also completely agree with you. Anyone with a heart would not want the most disgusting human being consciously tortured for eternity in hell. God bless you Donna 🙏💕

[@fredbmurphy]

@@lc2077 please forgive the sarcastic name and avatar. I would be termed an agnostic atheist today I was raised a Catholic and converted to SDA in my 20s. I wonder why it is important to be resurrected from soul sleep to be shown what you'll miss(?): I find vanity in this, just like the vanity of a jealous God that requires worship. Obviously most of Christianity teaches of eternal hell; meanwhile Jesus was uncomfortable for the weekend. Christian Universalism is not scripturally compatible, ignoring constant New Testament warnings of not being saved. Saved from what? How does a monotheistic Creator have an opposition to Itself? Where is the free will and moral choice in a heaven or paradise where there is no opposition or scale to define morality? And what would the purpose be of having moral choice now, when it will be irrelevant later. I don't know how existence is; why we are, but I'm pretty certain that all religion(s) make up the answers.

[@lc2077]

Damien Thorn I’ve thought very similar questions myself at times. My ex-husband was brought up a Christian and he says the same about worship. I don’t think the worship is something God needs, it’s more something we need. To be in a state of reverence and awe feels amazing. I couldn’t give my life to Christ until I realised there was an alternative to the ECT concept of hell. That seems so unbelievably wicked to me. I’ve researched both annihilationism and universalism a lot and I think both are possible, although I side more with annihilationism currently. Still I can see how it’s possible, even from scripture to believe in universalism. In terms of the free will issue after the resurrection. Again I have thought about this but I don’t have an answer. But it’s an interesting thing to think about and I’ve got a few ideas but they are not fully formed yet. Anyway, thanks for interesting comment. God bless you 🙏

[@bayreuth79]

The Infernalist position is despicable and reduces Christianity to incoherence.

[@soteriology1012]

Another danger we have here is not that our faith will be attacked from the core but that it may unravel from the loose ends.

[@sonnymustarseed7034]

Hey you, I tried to comment on your channel but mostly go blocked by either you or your assistants or Y,T itself.

[@soteriology1012]

@@sonnymustarseed7034 I do not post video's.

[@justindavis2711]

Universalism is a terrible word. It means too many things. If they were to simply speak about the opportunity to repent after you are dead, the scriptural support is somewhat evident. 1 Peter 3:19-20 speaks about Jesus himself preaching to the sprits of those who died during the days of Noah, who were imprisoned for their disobedience. There are countless testimonies of people being raised from the dead after experiencing hell and encountering Jesus. Its cognitive dissonance to accept these two facts and still believe its impossible to repent after death. I'm not so bold as to declare either view as truth, but we should at least accept that there are valid reasons for believing one or another