Understanding the Law of God through the P&E Framework

[@ruthkrehbiel772]

This P&E framework has me feeling very stupid!! I’m not a scholar, I’m just a mom. My son is engaged to a young lady who describes herself as a Gentile Messianic Jew. This is a very new line of thinking for me. I’ve never actually known a person to say that they are a fully gentile messianic Jew. An acquaintance of my daughter recommended your book to her. I bought one and I’m studying my way through it quite slowly. For some reason, your P&E framework just isn’t making sense to me. After watching your video, I think I’m getting closer, but I’m not there yet.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Hi, Ruth! Here's a simple version of the P&E framework: As a mom, one of the principles you want to teach your child is "be kind to others." When your child is a toddler you express that principle to them in very simple terms: don't hit your brother, share your toys. As they mature, you express that principle differently: don't gossip, volunteer to help others. So, as a parent, your principle of "be kind to others" never changes. But the way you express it to your child does. It's similar with God. His principle that "blood atones for sin" was expressed to Israel in the form of repeated animal sacrifices at the temple. As His people matured, He expressed that principle differently: Jesus is your sacrifice once and for all. But His principle of "blood atones for sin" never changed. Hope that helps! As far as your son's fiancé (or anyone who claims to be a "Gentile Messianic Jew"), I think you can extend a good amount of grace in terms of how she chooses to live out her faith in Jesus. The NT teaches that keeping the Mosaic rituals is permitted for Christians, but is not required (1 Cor. 9:19-23). And that principle goes both ways. While your son's fiancé is free to adopt Mosaic traditions such as eating kosher or keeping the seventh day Sabbath or the Torah feasts, you are not required to do so. The only real problem arises when others try to convince us that keeping those things is required as a matter of obedience, or righteousness, or salvation. Here's a video you might find helpful: *Five tips for responding to Torah-keeping family and friends* kzbin.info/www/bejne/fIOulGlrrpmBgrc Blessings, Rob

[@1sportoflife]

Excellent Lesson Breakdown My Dear Brother Rob... Thank You

[@schellycraft4290]

First (Edit) Very interesting. I think that by using this framework it kind of indirectly highlights how Abraham was justified by faith when the Word of the Lord came to him in a vision. So we can say that this principle of people becoming just in the sight of God by trusting Him was always true. Thank you.

[@EngrTodd]

Thank you thank you, God bless this ministry for His glory!!!

[@jonuvark2385]

Wow! You presented Principle/Expression model perfectly. I understand it VERY clearly.👍

[@DillonG959]

This is consistent with how I've always thought about it. I always say that morality didn't start with the law of Moses and it certainly didn't end with it. Thank you for this resource.

[@ChildofGod98765]

Thank you for this beautiful message of encouragement. It’s been four months since my heart attack because of my heart condition I declined the vaccine. I lost my job as a social worker because I declined. Since I’ve been having a hard time just providing the basics for my two beautiful sons. I’m a single mother my husband died three years ago unexpectedly. I have no family nor friends to aid me at this time. I applied for assistance but was denied. Please keep me in your prayers I’m so tired of worrying. I’m in constant fear we are going to end up on the streets. Why is this happening struggling with my faith. Please pray for me. I have nowhere to turn.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

I'm very sorry to hear this, Mousey. God says that in this world we will have trials and tribulations, but He is with us in those difficult times, and He knows what we need. We can trust Him! You are in my prayers.

[@waynehobbs5175]

Thank you Rob, again. This framework makes so much sense to me. Wow. Blessings.

[@leonaperdue8784]

Excellent explanation

[@BornagainE]

Good stuff!! More please

[@Floridasmokeater]

Great Great Great Teaching Brother!!!

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

I appreciate that, Mikel! Bless you, brother. Rob

[@PUSH2Tim]

Love this explanation! Great job! Thanks so much!

[@pjoshboyd]

Great video. Thank you so much. Keep 'em coming!

[@mattclevenger8598]

Very interesting Rob. Again, it's amazing how close, yet so far apart we are in regards to the Law. I think I can agree with this framework. Yes, the law of God does not change, and yes it is expressed in different ways. However, this deals with so much more beyond just atonement. I completely agree that atonement for sin has changed through the blood of Christ, scripture affirms this. But that doesn't assume every other law has changed with it. As I read Hebrews, I believe 7, the New covenant is really more like a "better" covenant. It's better because atonement doesn't required continuous sacrifice. We have a high preist in Yeshua that does not sin and has no begining or end, so He is a perfect preist forever. His sacrifice is "once and for all". Not so with the previous preisthood. This is the new covenant. Atonement for sin is the only context I see in that section. I have heard it said that to observe Torah is to deny Christ an also sin. According to this framework, I don't see how that is possible if Torah and Christ are merely expressions of the Law of God that never changes. It seems to me that this P&E logic would allow for anyone to pick any expression they want since they all satisfy the Law of God. Me personally except both, the complete work of Christ crucified for sins, as well as the Law of Moses as Gods standard of living. And of course Christ lived Torah perfectly as a man, though still being God, to give us an example, or expression if you will, of what it looks like to walk out the Law of God. Basically, these expressions do not replace each other they build on each other.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

I agree, Matt, that because my one example of atonement shows a change in expression, it does not mean that every other law has changed with it. As I said in the video, the Mosaic and New expressions are overwhelmingly more similar than different. Blessings, Rob

[@endtimesnowwithjohnnybargo3028]

It's not only atonement.. it's other major areas as well. For instance.. the priesthood. The Torah says only the levite from the order of Aaron could be the priesthood. Now under the new expression of priesthood, the believer is a royal priesthood after the order of melchizedek. That's a major change in expression. Another thing many people do not talk about is the fact that Jesus said there were many things He had to say to them but they couldn't handle them at the moment. But once He ascends He would send the Holy ghost to teach them. We see this play out with acts 1:2 that says He sent commandments to His apostles through the Holy Ghost. Many changes did not take place til this happened.. then He began teaching His apostles the foundation laws and commandments of the church and new covenant.. like for instance Romans 14 tells us now all things are clean of themselves but to him who esteems something unclean, to Him it is unclean. Paul said He was taught this by Jesus.. a different expression of a food law in a different covenant. 1st Corinthians 10 tells us the same thing concerning food.. there are still food laws .. 1 do not eat anything sacrificed to an idol. 2. Do not eat blood. 3. Eat nothing that has died of itself. 4. Do not Eat anything that causes your brother to stumble. 5 do not eat anything you yourself esteem to be unclean. Still food laws of God but it's not the kosher restriction in the Sinai covenant, which was a shadow pointing forward anyways. This was all established laws for the church after He ascended. Matthew 15:17-18,20 KJV Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? [18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. [20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Romans 14:14 KJV I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 1 Corinthians 10:23,25,27-28 KJV All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. [25] Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: [27] If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. [28] But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: 1 Timothy 4:3-5 KJV Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. [4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: [5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

[@mattclevenger8598]

@@endtimesnowwithjohnnybargo3028 you have a great deal of verses that I think we would likely land in different places. Many of them are relative to things sacrificed to idols and hypocrisy, not laws regarding clean and unclean foods. As far as the priesthood, I just had a thought that might be interesting. Yes the Levites we're consecrated as priests. But do you think it's possible that that consecration of the Levites was applicable to the the Tabernacle and then eventually the temple that they served in? I ask because those don't exist anymore and it would be impossible for the Levites to perform their duties within the hearts of men being the temple. The only ones capable of being priests would be the beleivers themselves and Yeshua, so that logic would make sense to me.

[@endtimesnowwithjohnnybargo3028]

@@mattclevenger8598 this here is specifically addressing unclean and clean by telling us that there is nothing unclean of itself.. it's addressing this specifically Romans 14:14,17 KJV I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

[@mattclevenger8598]

@@endtimesnowwithjohnnybargo3028 I can see how you could get there but I disagree on what this passage is about. The whole chapter seems to be addressing judgement being passed on others for various reasons, matters of food being one of them. So i think, if we were to glean something from this passage it would be, don't judge me for what I chose to eat, and I won't judge you for what you chose to eat. With that being said, I would propose that any videos suggesting false teachings about this subject ought to be taken down immediately so as not to cause division in those for which Christ came. After all, the scripture is indeed true, the kingdom is not a matter of eating or drinking

[@henryhodgens4312]

Rob, Your words: Thanks, Henry! That's an interesting angle. The Hebrew word torah is derived from the root word yarah, which means "to guide" or "to teach." So the meaning of the word torah is actually "teaching, doctrine, or instruction," as opposed to the commonly used English word law, which often gives a wrong impression. Also, the Jewish concept of an "oral law" was not even developed until long after Christ. It arose because the rabbis needed to find a way to work out Judaism without a temple. The terms: “oral law” and “rabbis” are completely absent from the Tanakh. In fact, the Talmud itself admits that Moses did not recognize the teaching of the Oral Law, when he allegedly heard Rabbi Akiva say at his yeshiva that the Oral Law he was teaching came straight from Moses himself, at Sinai. There is not even a hint of the Oral Law rulings in the Written Law. There is no scriptural record of any biblical figure practicing the rules of the Oral Law (not even putting on the phylacteries, which is considered by the rabbis to be one of the most important commandments of the Oral Law). The Oral Law has many quotations from the Bible, but the Bible never quotes the Mishnah or any other rabbinic literature. This proves that the Oral Law came into existence much later than the Written Law and was not given on Sinai, as the rabbis claim. IN fact, many of the Oral Law rulings, customs, and traditions contradict the Bible. Shalom, Rob My reply: Maybe in our long discourse you missed my earlier reply to your argument that the Oral Law had its inception long after the events of the NT. We agree that there is NO Scriptural support for an oral tradition in either the Tanakh (OT) or the Brit Chadashah (NT). In fact, the Torah forbids “adding to” or “diminishing from” the Torah (Dt 4:2; 12:32) which is exactly what Oral Law accomplishes. Things do not just come into existence when they are first named, so that, just because there’s no mention of an “Oral Law” before the second century AD, doesn’t preclude an earlier existence by another name. Thus, Scriptural references to TRADITIONS OF THE FATHERS, TRADITIONS OF THE ELDERS, COMMANDMENTS OF MEN in the NT, ARE references to what is termed “Oral Law”, today. What else would you call them? They are the oral commandments of the rabbis (men) that were added to the written Torah in direct violation of the prohibition of “adding to” and frequently contradict the Torah as noted by Messiah Yeshua: 1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the TRADITION OF THE ELDERS (Oral Law)? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your TRADITION? 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your TRADITION. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, teaching for doctrines the COMMANDMENTS OF MEN (Oral Law). (Mt 15:1-9) Note the following quote: "The Talmud is the written form of that which in the time of Jesus, was called the 'Tradition of the Elders,‘ and to which He makes frequent allusions." (Michael L. Rodkinson, The History of the Talmud: From the Time of its Formation About 200 B. C. up to the Present Time, Kessinger Publishing, LLC (June 8, 2006), ISBN-13: 978-1428631366, p.70). So, Mr. Rodkinson has traced the Oral Law / Mishnah under the moniker, “Tradition of the Elders” back to its inception around 200 BC…well BEFORE the events of the NT. Shalom

[@henryhodgens4312]

Rob, Your attempt to understand the conflict in theologies between normative Christianity and, say, Hebrew Roots, has led you to this P&E explanation…which IS a good attempt at healing the division between the two and I commend you for trying to bring peace. I, too, would like to see all believers in Messiah Yeshua in universal, theological agreement. However, there are possible explanations other than P&E as to why, for example, Paul would uphold the Law on one hand (Rom 3:31) and, seemingly, disparage the Law on the other (Gal 2:16). I have noticed that in the vast majority of disparaging cases, the term “law” is preceded by a qualifier “works of” or “deeds of” the law…or…sometimes, just “works” is substituted for the phrase “works / deeds of the law”. If these terms refer to the Torah, why go to all the trouble each time to write out “works / deeds of the law” when just “law” would suffice…unless, these qualifiers indicate some “regulation” other than Torah. As the moniker, Hebrew Roots, implies, we believe that all of the Scriptures, OT and NT, are grounded in Hebrew / Aramaic. In the Hebrew then, there are about a dozen terms for “law”…toratot, chuqqim, mitzvaoth, takkanot, ma’asim, gezerot, etc…about half of which refer to legitimate Torah…the other half to what is known as Oral Law / Mishnah / Talmud today…a corruption of the Torah since they “add to” in violation of Dt 4:2 and 12:32. If Paul’s epistles were, as we believe, penned in Hebrew, then we have a very viable explanation for the disparity…it’s a translation problem going from Hebrew to Greek, since in Greek, we only have the term, “nomos” to describe any of a dozen Hebrew terms lumped into two generic categories …Law (Torah) vs Oral Law. When viewed from this perspective, we see Paul and the other NT writers upholding Torah but disparaging Oral Law. EXAMPLE: 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law (Oral Law) there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law (Torah) is the knowledge of sin [1 John 3:4]. (Rom 3:20) There are a couple of hiccups in the NT where this understanding clarifies a verse or passage that doesn’t make good sense, otherwise. EXAMPLE: 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. (Gal 2:19) SAY WHAT??? Someone, in translating from Hebrew to Greek, simply used only “nomos” to represent two different “forms” of Hebrew law. The original Hebrew probably read something like: 19 For I through the Torah am dead to the takanot, that I might live unto God (by keeping His legitimate Commandments). (Gal 2:19) He is dead to the deception of the Pharisees’ Oral Law because he knows the Truth (Torah). Shalom

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Thanks, Henry! That's an interesting angle. The Hebrew word _torah_ is derived from the root word _yarah,_ which means "to guide" or "to teach." So the meaning of the word _torah_ is actually "teaching, doctrine, or instruction," as opposed to the commonly used English word _law,_ which often gives a wrong impression. Also, the Jewish concept of an "oral law" was not even developed until long after Christ. It arose because the rabbis needed to find a way to work out Judaism without a temple. The terms: “oral law” and “rabbis” are completely absent from the Tanakh. In fact, the Talmud itself admits that Moses did not recognize the teaching of the Oral Law, when he allegedly heard Rabbi Akiva say at his yeshiva that the Oral Law he was teaching came straight from Moses himself, at Sinai. There is not even a hint of the Oral Law rulings in the Written Law. There is no scriptural record of any biblical figure practicing the rules of the Oral Law (not even putting on the phylacteries, which is considered by the rabbis to be one of the most important commandments of the Oral Law). The Oral Law has many quotations from the Bible, but the Bible never quotes the Mishnah or any other rabbinic literature. This proves that the Oral Law came into existence much later than the Written Law and was not given on Sinai, as the rabbis claim. IN fact, many of the Oral Law rulings, customs, and traditions contradict the Bible. Shalom, Rob

[@SamuelePuteho]

So from the 10 commandments written by God himself, how many commandments should we still keep? All but one?

[@DillonG959]

Do you think you'd be able to apply this to laws such as not mixing fabrics (Deut 22:11)? I always interpreted the principle behind that law to be about holiness and not mixing with the world so to speak. While the expression of not being allowed to mix fabrics is no longer in effect, the principle of holiness is unchanging (1 Peter 1:15, Hebrews 12:14).

[@earlsmith2862]

Enjoy this so much brother Rob, this principal and expression framework, my question is, if we turned this around couldn't the same principle apply to God's salvation, that is always by grace through faith, maybe in different expressions, in different times?

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Good question, Earl. It seems to me that God's unchanging principle regarding salvation is "salvation comes through faith." That holds true across the whole Bible. From Adam and Eve not trusting God and getting kicked out of Eden, to Abraham being called righteous because he believed God, all the way up to those who reject Christ today. Shalom, Rob

[@earlsmith2862]

@@TheBiblicalRoots man you better come on, you talking good Rob.

[@jrettetsohyt1]

God‘s law has given through Moses was a list of expressions of the principles of the spirit of the law. If a human resumes out a different list of expressions of the principles but their list contradicts God’s List then who’s List should we accept?

[@scriptureplz9045]

Believers need to come to the realization that scripture says we're no longer under the law. The "expression" hasn't changed, our position with God has. We cannot be led into godly living by the law, only the Spirit of God indwelling us can. The apostle Paul teaches this in 2 Cor. 3. He called the law "the ministration of death" (2 Cor. 3:6-8). We don't walk "after" the law, but "after the Spirit". We have been made free from the "law of sin and death" by the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ" (Romans 8:1-8). Paul tells of his frustrations of trying to live as a believer by the law in Romans 7. The same is true of any believer today. The law is "the "strength of sin' (1 Cor. 15:56). Paul told the Corinthians (some of the most carnal believers who ever lived) "all things are lawful unto me, but not all things are expedient" (1 Cor. 6:12). The law cannot lead the believer into righteous living, only the Spirit of God. We're to be led by the Spirit, not the law.

[@StretchJED]

Hey Rob, love your Channel and appreciate everything you do. I would like to ask though, scripturally, what makes you think that there is an eternal law of God that is separate and distinct from the law of Moses, yet is somehow expressed by the same law of Moses? I'm not sure that what is being expressed is a law in and of itself, but simply the nature and character of God. Again, what verses or passages lead you to believe that there is an eternal law of God being expressed here? Would love to hear from you thank you so much!

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Hey, StretchJED! That is a really good question, thank you for asking it. What led me down the path to this biblical framework were the following scriptural truths, that we need to hold true at the same time. First, there are passages that teach that God does not change and His law is eternal. There are also passages that teach the Law of Moses was temporary and things have changed (Gal 3:24-25; Heb 7-10; Col 2:16-17, etc.). I discuss the changes to the blood sacrifices in this video, and to the priesthood in a newer video. There are many other examples. Such as the issue of food. In the garden, God gave Adam and Eve a vegetarian diet (Gen 1:29). Later, after the flood, God gave Noah literally every living thing to eat as food (Gen 9:3). Centuries after that, He gave Israel the kosher food laws which prohibited a specific list of foods (Lev 11). And later, under the New Covenant, He declared all foods clean (Mark 7:19, Acts 10, Romans 14, etc.) All of these changes are documented in Scripture, yet at the same time, we know that God does not change. So the idea came to me that what is changing is not God's eternal principles, but the way He is expressing them. God is adjusting the way He expresses His principles not because He has changed, but because _we_ have changed. Over the centuries, because Yahweh revealed more about Himself, and ultimately sent His Son to walk among us, His people have grown in their understanding of who the Living God is. As we matured, his expressions changed. Kind of like how a parent expresses the principle "be kind" differently to a toddler than to a teenager. (Which is a limited analogy that can only be pressed so far.) So I began testing out this framework to see if it accurately reflects Scripture, and so far it has. This theory is just a tool, a heuristic device that can help harmonize the progression we see in Scripture. And if you see a flaw in it, I am all ears! Shalom, Rob

[@StretchJED]

@@TheBiblicalRoots Thanks so much for your reply, Rob. I can say that I agree with most of what you have said. However, I may have missed it, but I still didn't see any Scripture that would show us that God's law is eternal. Maybe it's just a difference in the way I would express it, but I would not call it God's Eternal law, because in fact that kind of thinking is what leads many people into HRM ideology, but rather that God's nature doesn't change, that his moral perfection and character within himself do not change. I would also tend to avoid using the verse that says that God does not change, because this also is the foundation for many people's teaching concerning modern day tithing, which is the law that we are not under in the new covenant. Like I said, I might have missed it, but I would love it if you would point out to me the scriptures on which you are basing the idea that God's law is eternal, those verses necessarily being distinct from any indication of the Mosaic law being described as such. Thank you so much Rob!

[@jrettetsohyt1]

God‘s law as given through Moses was a list of expressions/applications of the principles of the spirit of the law. If someone reasons out a different list of expressions of the principles but their list contradicts God’s List then who’s List should we accept?

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Always go with God’s word over man’s!

[@JoshJorg44]

i dont understand why Yeshua would have said that not one jot or tittle would pass away from the law until Heaven and Earth pass away, if we were to no longer follow the law. and if this were so, then why didnt he explain that the law of Moses was no longer in effect? The Sabbath day started at the 7th day of creation, not the law of Moses. I dont see any scripture to back up not obeying the 4th commandment now. the reason "Torahism" is dangerous, it seems is because the way we are supposed to walk has been hidden from people so long and its hard on people when they first learn they have been misled for so long. we should all act in love towaeds each other though despite any different views and perspectives. God does truly know those who want to please him as opposed to those who want to live in licentiousness and lawlessness. none of us have it all right. im always open to learning more or realizing i may be wrong about some things.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

That's a great attitude, Jacob, and one I aspire to as well. I certainly don't know everything, and still have a lot to learn! Rob

[@AProdigalSonReturned]

Ah. Now I see why you are so confused. Before assuming that Romans 7 frees us from God's laws, maybe you should read the verses before the one you quoted. Then, maybe look and see if you can find out what Paul is talking about elsewhere in the whole book. Romans 7:1-6 [1]Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [2]For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3]So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. [4]Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5]For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What law of the husband? Deuteronomy 24:1-4 [1]When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2]And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. [3]And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; [4]Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Why do we need to be freed from that law? Jeremiah 3:1-13 [1]They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD. [2]Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. [3]Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed. [4]Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth? [5]Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest. [6]The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. [7]And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. [8]And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. [9]And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. [10]And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD. [11]And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah. [12]Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13]Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD. The House of Israel did not turn back, but was scattered among the nations. The book of Hosea is about this. The prophets knew that Israel would return to God; but how? Romans 7 is the answer. But that is talking about the House of Israel, not us gentiles! Right? Fancy that you also quoted Ephesians 2 to also twist God's Word. Ephesians 2 says that once you accept Christ, you become part of Israel. Ephesians 2:8-22 [8]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. [11]Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [15]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17]And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18]For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20]And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [21]In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22]In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Pay close attention. Ephesians 2:11-13 [11]Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. This will fall on deaf ears, and blind eyes. It still has to be said though. Proverbs 28:9 [9]He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. Deuteronomy 5:9-10 [9]Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, [10]And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. John 14:15-18 [15]If ye love me, keep my commandments. [16]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18]I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Is Jesus God? They said the same thing. If we love Him, we will keep His commands. If you believe that Jesus is God, then He gave all of the commands. He still expects us to keep what we can keep. There is grace for when we stumble. No grace will be given for continuous rebellion. Repentance is the only way to come out of rebellion. Ecclesiastes 12:8-14 [8]Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. [9]And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs. [10]The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth. [11]The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. [12]And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. [13]Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14]For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

[@ForgedinTruth]

“For to this you were called, because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,” ‭‭Kĕpha Aleph (1 Peter)‬ ‭2:21‬ ‭

[@JGez83]

I love how you first bring up murder because why didn’t the apostles list that command in acts 15 in the letter they sent could it be because the Gentiles even pagans had this notion that murder was wrong. How can people without the Torah know that murder is wrong…… This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 2 14

[@ForgedinTruth]

“But before belief in Messiah came, we were being guarded under Torah, having been guarded by the Torah for the belief was about to be revealed by Messiah coming and we would know Him because of what was written in the scriptures. Therefore the Torah became our trainer unto Messiah then it was He who trained us how to walk the Torah in love, in order to be declared right by belief. And after belief has come, we are no longer under a trainer because we become like the trainer (walking in Torah and love) because we are one in Messiah and He is the Word made flesh.” ‭‭Gal.3:23-25 P&E Paraphrase of Galatians 3:23-25 “For to this you were called, because Messiah also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps,” ‭‭1 Peter 2:21‬ ‭

[@henryhodgens4312]

Rob, Galatians 3 is a tough chapter to understand correctly….actually, all of Galatians is a challenge. There are many interpretations of verses 23-25 depending on which translation you are using. Note the variations in translation: 23 Now before faith came, we were HELD CAPTIVE under the law, IMPRISONED until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our GUARDIAN until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a GUARDIAN, (Gal 3:23-25, ESV) 23 Before the coming of this faith, we were HELD IN CUSTODY under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our GUARDIAN until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a GUARDIAN. (Gal 3:23-25, NIV) 23. Now before faith came, we were GUARDED UNDER LAW, having been shut up unto the faith that was yet to be revealed. 24. In this way, the law was our TUTOR to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25. But since faith has come, we are no longer under a TUTOR (Gal 3:23-25, AFV) 23 But before faith came, we were KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a SCHOOLMASTER. (Gal 3:23-25, KJV) 23 And before the coming of the faith, UNDER LAW WE WERE BEING KEPT, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, 24 so that the law became our CHILD-CONDUCTOR -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, 25 and the faith having come, no more under a CHILD-CONDUCTOR are we, (Gal 3:23-25, YLT) 23 But before the coming of faith, we were GUARDED UNDER LAW, having been locked up to the faith being about to be revealed. 24 So that the law has become a TRAINER of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But faith coming, we are no longer under a TRAINER; (Gal 3:23-25, Interlinear) First, what is this term, GUARDIAN / SCHOOLMASTER / CHILD-CONDUCTOR / TRAINER / TUTOR? schoolmaster - G3807, paidagogos; boy leader, i.e., a servant whose office it was to take the children (boys) to school. Boys went to school at the age of seven, or went to the barracks, if they lived in Sparta. The three types of teachings were: grammatistes for arithmetic, kitharistes for music and dancing, and paedotribae for sports. Boys from wealthy families attending the private school lessons were taken care of by a PAIDAGOGOS, a household slave selected for this task who accompanied the boy during the day. Classes were held in teachers' private houses and included reading, writing, mathematics, singing, and playing the lyre and flute. When the boy became 12 years old the schooling started to include sports such as wrestling, running, and throwing discus and javelin. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) There is some diversity of opinion as to whether the PAIDAGOGOS (schoolmaster / trainer) simply delivered the boys to school or was in fact, their teacher. But whichever, once they knew the way or had been trained, they didn't depart from it. What is the purpose of training if you never use it? The point here is that once one was trained in Torah he would continue in the same manner and not stray into some strange doctrine…and this training would “lead” them to recognize Messiah when He arrived. From the perspective of the OT saints, the “faith about to be revealed” refers to the coming (Re-)New(-ed) Covenant in which God promised that He would write His Commandments (Torah) on the hearts of the believers so they would have a desire to "walk in His Ways" (Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:8-10). Thus, once the Spirit was given (Shavuoth / Pentecost), there was no need for the GUARDIAN / SCHOOLMASTER / CHILD-CONDUCTOR / TRAINER / TUTOR…or “written law”…since God’s Commandments are now inscribed on our hearts…but it is the very same Law given at Mt Sinai. So, it seems fairly obvious that the OT saints were not “imprisoned” by the Law…that would be the natural conclusion of those…even translators…who are inclined to view the Law as a burden…who don’t have the Torah written on their hearts. Rather, the theme of this passage is that the OT Israelites were being “protected” under the Law and “trained” what to look for in the Messiah and what was expected of them as citizens in the Kingdom of God, anticipating the arrival of the Spirit to transpose the written word to their / our hearts. Shalom

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Good stuff, Henry. I agree that the Law was given to Israel not as a prison guard, but as a teacher/ guide/tutor. And now that Christ has come, we are no longer under that tutor (Gal 3:25). Shalom, Rob

[@Hezron389]

Did Moses not live by faith ? Yet he was under the Law. Abraham lives by faith but was not under the Law. So what’s the difference ? The Sinai Covenant. You cannot separate the Law with that covenant. So when Paul tries to tell us that we are under a new covenant he can’t mean that we are still under the Law. It cannot make sense at all. In Jeremiah we are told that God will make a New Covenant with us, NOT LIKE THE ONE AT SINAI…Now the promise of that covenant still remained before, during, and after the Law.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Thanks, E11!

[@ForgedinTruth]

Rambam came up with the 613 number. Some for women only, some for men only, some for priests only, some for farmers only, some for King’s only, some for manslayers only etc.... so how many does that leave to the average person? Even Adam and Eve couldn’t obey 1 or 2 commandments and they were in their glorified bodies perfect and sinless. There are consequences for disobedience by Gods people before Messiah and after. ““My people have perished for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being priest for Me. Since you have forgotten the Torah of your Elohim, I also forget your children.” ‭‭Hosea 4:6‬ ‭ “Love does no evil to a neighbour. Therefore, love is completion of the Torah.” ‭‭Romans 13:10‬ The whole Torah aka: law of God aka:law of Moses hangs on the two- love God through His commandments and Love man through His commandments. The finer more detailed how to’s are found after that in the Torah and the prophets. “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of יהושע.” ‭‭Revelation 14:12‬ ‭ ““Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.” ‭‭Revelation 22:14‬ ‭

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Adam and Eve weren't under the 613.

[@ForgedinTruth]

@@TheBiblicalRoots That’s correct. That was my point. They were not able to obey even 1 command while in their perfect sinless state. So what’s the point of obeying any of them or even what the church calls the “law of Christ“ if we can’t even obey one. What’s the point?

[@carmensiekierke3579]

EagleOne.........Adam and Eve were not in their glorified bodies in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. God created them with the ability to sin and with the ability to not sin. That isn't true of any human being after the Fall. Where did you get the idea that Adam and Eve were in "glorified" bodies? Be as specific as possible.......

[@sunsetfree5358]

Were exiled Jews in the latter OT forgiven by God when they repented? If so, upon what basis, if there was no animal sacrificing available to them, since the temple was destroyed? Is it possible they were forgiven by Jesus’ blood, before He was even crucified? …But they just didn’t understand it yet? “…the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.” (Rev 13:8) Is it possible that all of the “expressions” are ultimately forgiven by Jesus’ blood? Though God may have forgiven the OT exiled Jews based on Jesus’ future blood-because they had no other option, it seems the NT says He does NOT forgive Jews (or anyone, since His resurrection), who outrightly rejects Jesus’ as their only option for sacrifice, atonement, and forgiveness? So though Jews today try to claim they can be forgiven by repentance and good deeds alone-because that’s the way they did it when they were exiles-that is NOT actually the case. My main question is: How were Jews forgiven during the exile? When Daniel prayed for God’s mercy and forgiveness of his people, upon what basis did he expect that forgiveness without a legitimate temple sacrifice?

[@yvonnegordon1952]

what happened at the fall? Adam, Eve and the serpent were put under a curse which means they would be consciously cut off from God/Hashem hence his LAW since his law and his desire and his love are ONE: If the law is separated from us all because we died in Adam, then how would mankind be redeemed? God DID NOT CHANGE HIS MIND about HOW TO WALK WITH HIM: He had to come to the END of choosing evil (the evil root) and choose GOOD (the good root of the tree of knowledge is the MESSIAH that would have made Adam and all of us MESSIAH: As it turns out, Adam would not be Messiah now till he did TESHUVAH (REPENT, return to the GOOD ROOT and choose good and refuse the evil: I will do a whole post on Isaiah 7 soon AGAIN so everyone can see the SPIRITUAL meaning of that chapter: BUT MESSIAH IN US will be able to do what the curse does not allow us to do: Isa 7:15 “Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. after experiencing the Abrahamic covenant, Paul understood the difference between the law and the covenant God/Hashem made with Abraham to become a father of MANY nations: Paul understood how Israel did not keep that covenant that was for Abraham and ALL HIS DESCENDANTS, so they were put under the law (having not kept the covenant) so they could understand why they would continue in exile if they did NOT keep the covenant: Paul explains; Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Did you see it? The law is not something that you can keep piecemeal or here and there; IT IS THE LAW OF LIFE ITSELF and if you don't KEEP all of it, you will lose life to that extent: So what was Hashem showing Israel by writing the law in their stony hearts? WHAT Adam, Eve and the serpent cursed them with having to now KEEP outside of themselves because they function from the EVIL ROOT TO HAVE FREE WILL: IF they were in the covenant, then they would be functioning from the GOOD ROOT OF ADAM which is the MESSIAH and here there is no "do this or that" because the Messiah in us, rising in us, BRINGS THE FULLFILLMENT of the law at the level before the FALL when Adam walked with God in the garden: BEFORE he chose the evil root: now look here at Nehemiah: Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes; and Daniel Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. So did Paul say Israel didn't have to keep the law? NO, he did not: HE SAID THEY NEEDED TO GO INTO COVENANT WITH GOD like Abraham did which is why Jesus said, "ABRAHAM SAW MY DAY and was GLAD": What did this take care of for Abraham? WHY did he only need to live by faith? HE experienced the law and he had faith in this and this alone: so Messiah REDEEMS us from the CURSE of the law by being made a curse for us: Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: HOW was Christ made a curse for us: Hashem LEFT HIM WITHIN US, to live within sinners, among sinners, till they REPENT AND CHOOSE the GOOD ROOT OF ADAM and in this, Adam is resurrected and becomes the COLLECTIVE MESSIAH, the Last Adam, no more born into the curse of the fallen Adam. Eve and the serpent: If you don't remember their curse, its in Gen, TORAH: The only thing that removes the curse is choosing the GOOD ROOT of the tree of knowledge which makes it a TREE OF LIFE once again: The GOOD root then RISES and overcomes the EVIL ROOT and this VOW was taken by JUDAH to perform : Nah 1:15 Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that brings good tidings, that publishes peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off. I know from the past thirty years of experience with bringing this truth, explaining it and explaining how Torah, Kabbalah, and the NEW TESTAMENT and Zohar all fit together that people can't hear me which is why Jesus always said "HE WHO HAS AN EAR LET HIM HEAR": if you don't have the SPIRITUAL SENSE OF HEARING, then you only hear with your corporeal ears and only see the Bible as stories and you don't really care if you make evil good or good evil because if its written, it must be right: Understanding the evil and good in the Bible in the RIGHT WAY is grasping the TORAH as a tree of life: this is also why it says in Gen 49, the law would be under the FEET of Judah till SHILOH (Peace, Messiah) comes: Once Messiah comes, the LAW IS IN THE HEART and not under the feet (mind/Malchut): The covenant with Abraham is the HEART CIRCUMCISION and I have written so much about that but nobody ever comments so they may not understand this heart circumcision by experience. I know Jews don't or they would not longer be waiting for Messiah or teaching about keeping Moses law because they would be in the NEW COVENANT which is really Abraham's covenant that ADAM DID NOT KEEP but Abraham did and David will to FINISH THE COVENANT at the level of Malchut: IT IS FINISHED is when Judah (Jesus) through David finishes that Abrahamic covenant: Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked. Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

[@henryhodgens4312]

Rob, Next you quote Eph 2:15 in support of abolishing Torah: 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15) But, is Torah really the subject of this verse? I don’t think so…on so many levels. So, let’s start with the beginning of the chapter. First, in contradistinction to normative Christian understanding, the “faith” verses of Ephesians 2…verses 8 - 10…are contrasting two different ideologies. The first is Oral Law, noted as “works” or “works / deeds of the law”. The second is “good works”…mitzvaoth…Commandments. 8 For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of WORKS (Oral Law / Mishnah), lest any man (Pharisees / Scribes) should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS (mitzvoth, commandments), which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED (like at Mt Sinai and earlier, maybe?) that we should WALK IN THEM. (Eph 2:8-10) 9 The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, IF thou shalt KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of the Lord thy God, and WALK IN HIS WAYS. (Dt 28:9) FAITH then leads to FAITHFULNESS because God has promised by His GRACE to write His Commandments (Torah) on our hearts so we will have a desire to pursue them when we believe in Messiah Yeshua. So verses 8 - 10 are a “dichotomy of expression” contrasting “works” (Oral Law) versus “good works” (Torah)…NOT Torah versus no Torah. Next, if Yeshua is God in the flesh, why would His Commandments be any different than the Father’s Commandments? 19 Did not MOSES give you the LAW, and yet NONE OF YOU KEEPETH THE LAW? Why go ye about to KILL ME? (John 7:19) 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to KILL ME, because MY WORD HATH NO PLACE IN YOU. (John 8:37) So by parallelism, we see that MY (Yeshua’s) WORD is the same as the LAW OF MOSES and the Jewish authorities were seeking to kill Messiah because He incriminated their pursuance of Oral Law in place of Torah Law (Mt 15:1-9), thus threatening their authority status / power structure. Continuing….If gentiles are grafted into Israel and Israel is to keep the Commandments of God FOREVER, IN PERPETUITY, THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS, and as an EVERLASTING observance, then how can the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” be a reference to the legitimate Torah? Did Messiah Yeshua keep the Law perfectly? Yes, He had to or He wouldn’t be the perfect Lamb of God. So, aren’t we supposed to follow His example??? 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON CHRIST. (Gal 3:26,27) Again….Did not Messiah Yeshua keep the Torah perfectly? So, if we put Him on, doesn’t that mean we should do the same? And finally, there’s the internal contradiction in the passage if the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES refers to the Torah. Note that, according to verses 14 and 19, Jew and gentile are now ONE: 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (Jew and gentile) ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Eph 2:14) 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but FELLOWCITIZENS with the SAINTS, and of the household of God; (Eph 2:19) Again, notice that Jew and gentile are now, ONE…indistinguishable from one another…FELLOWCITIZENS (of Israel) with the SAINTS. Who then is a SAINT??? [Let Scripture define Scripture.] 12 Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are THEY that KEEP the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD (Torah), and the FAITH of Jesus. (Rev14:12) So, how can Jews and gentiles be ONE if we’re following different sets of rules? Therefore the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES cannot refer to Torah. Rather, this phrase refers to what is termed Oral Law / Mishnah, today, which places a barrier between Jew and gentile. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an UNLAWFUL thing (according to Oral Law) for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. (Acts 10:28) QED Shalom

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Hi Henry! First things first, I do not believe that "Torah has been abolished." Rather, I believe Eph 2:15 is saying that Christ’s death on the cross fulfills the law of Moses and removes the necessity of the regulations that once divided Jews from Gentiles (See Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25). In particular, the "holiness laws" that served to set Israel apart from all the other nations. Interesting note: there is no hint of an oral law in the Tanakh. Jewish Scholar Eitan Bar wrote, "The terms: 'oral law' and 'rabbis' are completely absent from the Tanakh. In fact, the Talmud itself admits that Moses did not recognize the teaching of the Oral Law, when he allegedly heard Rabbi Akiva say at his yeshiva that the Oral Law he was teaching came straight from Moses himself, at Sinai. There is not even a hint of the Oral Law rulings in the Written Law. There is no scriptural record of any biblical figure practicing the rules of the Oral Law (not even putting on the phylacteries, which is considered by the rabbis to be one of the most important commandments of the Oral Law)." The first appearance of the term “Oral Law” didn't even occur until long after Christ. It's first found in the Babylonian Talmud, where it is explicitly mentioned in three different tractates. So there is no written source, earlier than the second century AD which explicitly links the Pharisaic laws to the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. You asked, _"If Yeshua is God in the flesh, why would His Commandments be any different than the Father’s Commandments?"_ Even within the Tanakh, the Father's commands changed. Not because the Father changed or because the commands weren't perfect. It's because His people change and Yahweh progressively reveals more about Himself and His will over time. (ex. After the flood, we were allowed to eat *all* food (Gen 9:3). But later, at Sinai, God's dietary commands changed (Lev 11).) And since the work of Christ was everything the Hebrew Scriptures pointed to-the crux of God's plan of redemption for mankind-it shouldn't be a surprise that Yeshua brought with Him some new revelations. You asked, _"So, how can Jews and gentiles be ONE if we’re following different sets of rules?"_ I know, right? The NT teaches that there is freedom in Christ in how we live out our faith. In Romans 14, for example, Paul refers to the "weak" and "strong" in faith. And his point is that each should respect the other. So there is no problem at all if Jewish followers of Jesus keep the Mosaic traditions and Gentile Christians don't. We are called to unity, not uniformity. And those traditions are permitted but not required. The NT clearly teaches that all of the commands about right and wrong and loving God and loving people remain unchanged. And I would argue that it's not about "following a set of rules," anyway. Yeshua did not say, "Follow Torah" or "Follow the Law." He repeatedly said, "Follow Me." And what Yeshua taught is that all of the Law and the prophets are now kept by loving God and loving people (Matt 22:36-40). This is why Paul could write, "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" (Rom 13:8-10). Shalom, Rob

[@henryhodgens4312]

@@TheBiblicalRoots Rob, Part 1 First, I want to thank you for allowing me to post responses to your videos…”as iron sharpens iron.” I will break my response up into three parts so as to not exceed the KZbin maximum. Your words: First things first, I do not believe that "Torah has been abolished." Rather, I believe Eph 2:15 is saying that Christ’s death on the cross fulfills the law of Moses and removes the necessity of the regulations that once divided Jews from Gentiles (See Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25). In particular, the "holiness laws" that served to set Israel apart from all the other nations. My reply: Right, first things first: The Greek word plero-o not only means “fulfill” but also means “complete” (Col 2:10)…but I see that you have a video out on Mt 5:17-19 so will wait to comment there. Fulfilling the “holiness laws” seem incongruous with the fact that both Israel and NT believers are called to be a holy nation and a royal priesthood, which further confirms that gentile believers are grafted into Israel: 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; (1 Pet 2:9) Jew and gentile, both, are now a Holy Nation, Israel, called to keep Torah since Israel is to keep God’s Commandments FOREVER, THROUGHOUT YOUR GENERATIONS, IN PERPETUITY, as an EVERLASTING observance. Romans 10:4??? 4 For Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom 10:4) I think you are misunderstanding the Greek, telos: G5056 telos; from tello (to set out for a definite point or goal); prop. the point aimed at as a limit; i.e., (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state, termination (lit., fig., indef.)….. Yes, telos CAN mean termination, but in matters of belief / philosophy, almost universally, it means “goal”. Telos (philosophy) - From Wikipedia: A telos (from the Greek τέλος for "end", "purpose", or "goal") is an end or purpose, in a fairly constrained sense used by philosophers such as Aristotle. It is the root of the term "teleology," roughly the study of purposiveness, or the study of objects with a view to their aims, purposes, or intentions. EXAMPLE: 11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the END (telos, termination???) of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. (James 5:11) So, Romans 10:4 should better be read as: 4 For Christ is the GOAL of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Rom 10:4) That is, Yeshua (Jesus) is the focus of the Law (Torah) and serves as the example of righteousness to all who believe. I’ll cover Galatians 3:23-25 in a separate reply, later. Your words: The first appearance of the term “Oral Law” didn't even occur until long after Christ. It's first found in the Babylonian Talmud, where it is explicitly mentioned in three different tractates. So there is no written source, earlier than the second century AD which explicitly links the Pharisaic laws to the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai. My reply: You are absolutely correct. There is no WRITTEN record of Oral Law / Mishnah earlier than the second century, because the tradition was…ORAL…as the word implies. However, we can be certain that these “regulations” were being applied during the first century both from Scripture and from extra-Biblical sources. Notice that Yeshua condemns the Scribes and PHARISEES for their “traditions” that cause the Jews to violate the Commandment of God in Mt 15:1-9. Thus, TRADITION OF THE FATHERS / TRADITION OF THE ELDERS / COMMANDMENTS OF MEN all refer to Oral Commandments added to the written Torah in violation of Dt 4:2 and 12:32. In fact, there is a Mishnah tractate entitled Purkei Avot…Sayings of the Fathers. "The Talmud is the written form of that which in the time of Jesus, was called the 'Tradition of the Elders,‘ and to which He makes frequent allusions." (Michael L. Rodkinson, The History of the Talmud: From the Time of its Formation About 200 B. C. up to the Present Time, Kessinger Publishing, LLC (June 8, 2006), ISBN-13: 978-1428631366, p.70). Thus, according to Rodkinson, the Oral Law had its genesis around 200 BC…well BEFORE Messiah and the NT…probably as a result of the Maccabean revolt leading to the Hasmonean kingdom / priesthood? Shalom

[@henryhodgens4312]

@@TheBiblicalRoots Rob, Part 2 Your words: Even within the Tanakh, the Father's commands changed. Not because the Father changed or because the commands weren't perfect. It's because His people change and Yahweh progressively reveals more about Himself and His will over time. (ex. After the flood, we were allowed to eat all food (Gen 9:3). But later, at Sinai, God's dietary commands changed (Lev 11).) And since the work of Christ was everything the Hebrew Scriptures pointed to-the crux of God's plan of redemption for mankind-it shouldn't be a surprise that Yeshua brought with Him some new revelations. My reply: I, too, believe in a progressive revelation…but of God’s Torah, however. Because God’s Commandments are the result of His just character and He doesn’t change, they too are IMMUTABLE. I say progressive revelation only because I can’t PROVE that they were ALL in play prior to Sinai…Scripture is silent about this. The one exception, as you point out, MIGHT be immediately post-diluvial but I’m not convinced here either: 3 EVERY moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. (Gen 9:3) In Hebrew the word EVERY (H3605) in the phrase “EVERY moving thing” is kol. Kol is almost always translated as “every”, but derives from kalal (H3634) which means “to complete: - (make) perfect. “Perfect moving thing” could be interpreted as defining “clean”. So, why would God Command Noah to take seven pairs of “clean” animals except for food and sacrifice. And how did Noah know what was “clean” and “unclean”? What would have happened if Noah and family consumed one of the “unclean” animals?...ooops, there goes a species. And in the very next verse in Genesis 9, we see an example of an IMMUTABLE Torah Command that is repeated as one of the five things gentiles were to observe coming into the Jewish congregation in Acts 15:19-21. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the BLOOD thereof, SHALL YE NOT EAT. (Gen 9:4) I can give you, maybe, two dozen examples of Torah Commandments before Sinai. We keep running across new ones every time we read through the Torah. EXAMPLES: 4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will WALK IN MY LAW (H8451, Torah), or no. 5 And it shall come to pass, that on the SIXTH DAY they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily. (Ex 16:4,5) Why twice as much on the sixth day? Because the next day was Shabbat when no work was to be performed. 22 And it came to pass, that on the SIXTH DAY they gathered TWICE AS MUCH bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the HOLY SABBATH unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. (Ex 16:22,23) How did Joseph know that adultery was a SIN AGAINST GOD? 7 And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me. 8 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand; 9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and SIN AGAINST GOD? (Gen 39:7-9) How did Able know to include the FAT of the FIRSTLINGS with his BLOOD sacrifice? 4 And Abel, he also brought of the FIRSTLINGS of his flock and of the FAT thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: (Gen 4:4) And of course, there’s God’s praise of Abraham where He states: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham OBEYED MY VOICE, and KEPT my CHARGE, my COMMANDMENTS, my STATUTES, and my LAWS. (Gen 26:4,5) This is too specific to be some haphazard, generalized worship and oblation. In fact, these are the same terms related to sacrifices not encountered again until Sinai. All these examples then, AS A MINIMUM, point to a progressive revelation of God’s Commandments for adam (Hebrew, mankind - Dt 8:1-3, Mt 4:1-4)…not just Jews. All the Commandments of God, I believe, will be enforced worldwide with a “rod of iron” during the Millennial Reign (Ez 43 - 48). God will surely have His Way when He returns. Shalom

[@henryhodgens4312]

@@TheBiblicalRoots Rob, Part 3 Your words: The NT teaches that there is freedom in Christ in how we live out our faith. My reply: The freedom spoken of in the NT is the freedom to follow just Torah as contrasted to the burden of following Oral Law. Oral Law today dictates how one is to dress themselves upon waking…right shoe first, then left shoe, then tie the left shoestring, then tie the right shoestring…pre-tear toilet paper before the Sabbath so that you are NOT creating anything (work) on the Sabbath…can’t turn light switches on or off on the Sabbath because the spark is creating a fire…etc. Though advanced today in Judaism, this same typology is the burdensome yoke of Acts 15 and throughout the NT. Note how many times the NT addresses the TRADITIONS OF THE FATHERS / ELDERS, COMMANDMENTS OF MEN, WORKS / DEED OF THE LAW (or just WORKS) in a negative context. Your words: In Romans 14, for example, Paul refers to the "weak" and "strong" in faith. And his point is that each should respect the other. So there is no problem at all if Jewish followers of Jesus keep the Mosaic traditions and Gentile Christians don't. We are called to unity, not uniformity. And those traditions are permitted but not required. My reply: Please note Romans 14:1 1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to DOUBTFUL DISPUTATIONS. (Rom 14:1) DOUBTFUL DISPUTATIONS in Romans 14 is about matters of ADIAPHORA Adiaphora: in Christian theology, the opinion that certain doctrines or practices in morals or religion are matters of indifference because they are neither commanded nor forbidden in the Bible. So, matters not specifically addressed in Scripture are open to personal interpretation and this should not be condemned so that uniformity with respect to these is not required. Your words: The NT clearly teaches that all of the commands about right and wrong and loving God and loving people remain unchanged. My reply: Agreed. Your words: And I would argue that it's not about "following a set of rules," anyway. Yeshua did not say, "Follow Torah" or "Follow the Law." He repeatedly said, "Follow Me." My reply: If, according to normative Christian doctrine, Messiah “fulfilled” the Law for us, then He must have kept the Torah perfectly as our substitute in order to be the perfect Lamb of God on our behalf. And yet, to “follow me” means to follow His example, right? If He kept the Law perfectly so we don’t have to, why should we follow his example??? It seems that we have a non-sequitur here. But, if He didn’t fulfill all the Law for us to make us “free from the Law”, but instead came as the sinless, Lamb of God to pay our sin debt (failure to keep the Law), then He has every right to ask us to follow His example and not sin (1 John 3:4). Your words: And what Yeshua taught is that all of the Law and the prophets are now kept by loving God and loving people (Matt 22:36-40). My reply: Mt 22:36-40 is NOT A DIFFERENT WAY, but a SUMMARY OF THE WAY. 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. (Mt 22:36,37) [4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Dt 6:4,5)] 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Mt 22:39) [18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. (Lev 19:18)] 40 On these two commandments HANG (depend) all the law and the prophets. (Mt 22:40) Thus, the 613 (Rabbinically enumerated) commandments are the “whole Megillah” . The ten commandments are the “Reader’s Digest” version. And the two commandments are the “executive summary”. Mt 22:36-40, then, IS the Torah. Your words: This is why Paul could write, "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" (Rom 13:8-10). My reply: Agreed…all the commandments direct our path to loving God and loving our neighbor. This IS Torah! Shalom

[@shellyblanchard5788]

Jesus said the law and the prophets was until John. John preached repentance, not sacrifices. Jesus healed the ten lepers and told them to show themselves to the priest as according to the law of Moses. Why? Because they were under it. The law wasn't made obsolete until after Jesus death. So why does people still want to think we still need to the law? Because most still think it wasn't made obsolete in Christ death. They think they are still made holy by the Torah. It was never designed to make one holy, it only atoned for sin.

[@carmensiekierke3579]

Zack Bauer "Apologia Studios Overview Of The Hebrew Roots Movement/Part 2" ( Feb 12, 2022) Minute mark 4:05 " You will keep them forever unto all your generations.....not forever until some guy comes around and they nail him to a cross." Minute mark 8:00.....Apologia Cultish guy " I am free in Christ to actually observe the feasts if I want to, but that does not justify me, that does not declare me righteous." Zach disagrees.....( and uses John 3: 16) because he doesn't understand the difference between justification and sanctification. This is the exact same thing the Roman Catholic Church does....and all cults. Mix justification and sanctification. Justification is a legal declaration. It does not change the nature of the sinner.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Scary stuff!

[@susancassels5887]

I believe Yeshua pointed them to the covenant that was established, ie. refreshed, at Horeb without the Levitical laws that had been added because the people continued to disobey and wander far from YEHOVAH.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Thanks, Susan! What do you mean by "Levitical laws that had been added"? Rob

[@ForgedinTruth]

The principal and expression of the Sabbath have not changed. Or at least it’s not found in scripture that it’s changed.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

That's an interesting observation, EO. The question then becomes: What is the unchanging principle behind the Mosaic expression of the Sabbath, and how is that same principle expressed under Christ?

[@ForgedinTruth]

@@TheBiblicalRoots Very good question Rob. The principal of rest is just that, rest. “Do this in memory of me” meaning that because He gave Himself up for us to enter into His rest when He returns. Genesis means beginning and in the beginning a rest was declared (a principal) that should provoke us to express our love for Him by doing. If the “End is declared from the Beginning” then most certainly in the end there is Sabbath resting taking place. During Messiah’s 1,000 year reign on earth he requires Sabbath observance to those who weren’t transformed (1st resurrection). We who have been transformed in our new bodies have now entered into our Master’s rest, the one that we awaited for. Let’s say all of the Big 10 are still valid...We’re absolutely still supposed to have no other god before Him, we absolutely shouldn’t make an image (idol) and worship it, we absolutely shouldn’t bring His name to nothing by our actions, we should definitely honor our father and mother, we still shouldn’t murder, committing adultery is still wrong, never bare false witnesses against our brothers, and for sure not covet what he has. So is the Sabbath principal not good enough to express? It was good enough for God to incorporate it into these eternal principles that God says we must express, so why is it now not expressible. God never said that we should only obey the commands that we understand.

[@ForgedinTruth]

@@TheBiblicalRoots ““And pray that your flight does not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.” ‭‭Matthew 24:20‬ ‭ Talking about the end times tribulation He says to pray it’s not on the Sabbath, cause He’s expecting that you’ll be observing the Sabbath. Which is obviously a specific day and not just any day you choose.

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

@@ForgedinTruth Well, technically a rest was not declared for mankind in the beginning. Gen 2:2 only tells us that God rested. The weekly Shabbat was not commanded of humans until Israel was collecting manna in the wilderness after they were rescued from Egypt. So it doesn't seem that the weekly Shabbat regulations given under the Mosaic expression reflect God's ultimate principle. Resting in and with God, trusting Him for our provision, remembering what He has done: those all seem closer to the ultimate principle than "do not work, carry no load."

[@ForgedinTruth]

@@TheBiblicalRoots What are the regulations for Shabbat other than rest and have your animals rest and your employees rest and don’t go to work so you can rest and spend time with God and your fellowship. I don’t see where the torah says no load? Rest is the primary timeless principal that is eternal and it’s the sign for all to know that we belong to God

[@henryhodgens4312]

Rob, At the very start of your video, here, you quote Romans 7:6 to substantiate your claim that gentiles are no longer obliged to pursue the Law. This, from a Hebrew Roots perspective, indicates a failure to appreciate the true nature of the Gospel. Recall that all prophetic passages concerning the “New Covenant” invoke the people group called Israel; e.g., Jeremiah 31:31-33. These passages don’t say Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, or even Christian. They state Judah and Israel. The conundrum for Israel is that they were wed to God at Mt Sinai where the Torah was the Ketubah or marriage contract. Israel broke that marriage contract and God divorced her (Is 50:1, Jer 3:8). By God’s own Law, a husband may not take a divorced wife back (Dt 24:1-4) and yet Scripture states that God will RENEW his covenant with Israel and Judah. How can God violate His own Law, the Law that He expects Israel to keep? This is the subject of Romans 7 and this is why Yeshua MUST be God in the flesh. The Torah has authority over a man only as long as that man lives. So, if God comes in the flesh and dies, then Israel is released from THAT law and is free to remarry whomever….hopefully, they will recognize Yeshua HaMashiach as their betrothed God and be saved. The conundrum for gentiles…and this is the subject of a much longer discussion…is that they are grafted into Israel (Rom 11, Eph 2). But this would be to no avail if Israel had remained divorced. How could anyone ever be saved? By this one act of sacrifice, God has reunited Israel to Himself and paid the sin debt of all who will accept His proposal. Thus our God has totally defeated Satan’s entire scheme. To the Jew, then, it’s a RENEWED proposal. To the gentile, it’s a NEW proposal. The terms are the same, however…Torah. I believe A Faithful Version with their explanation accurately captures the intent of Romans 7:6 1. Are you ignorant, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know law), that the law rules over a man for as long a time as he may live? 2. For the woman who is married is bound by law to the husband as long as he is living; but if the husband should die, she is released from the law that bound her to the husband. 3. So then, if she should marry another man as long as the husband is living, she shall be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law that bound her to the husband, so that she is no longer an adulteress if she is married to another man. 4. In the same way, my brethren, you also were made dead to the marriage law of the Old Covenant by the body of Christ in order for you to be married to another, Who was raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God. 5. For as long as we were in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were through the law, were working within our own members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6. But now we have been released from the law (see Explanation*) because we have died to that in which we were held so that we might serve in newness of the spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. (Rom 7:1-6, A Faithful Version) *Explanation: The phrase, “released from the law” means that through the death of Jesus Christ and the symbolic death by water baptism into the death of Jesus Christ, that Jews and Israelites have been released from the covenant marriage law that bound them to the Old Covenant. It does not mean that New Covenant Christians are released from the obligation to keep the commandments and laws of God (Matt. 5:17-20). Rather, they are now to obey the commandments and laws of God in the newness of the spirit of the law and not just the letter of the law (Rom. 7:6) (A Faithful Version) Shalom

[@kyleamerica5522]

YAhusha is god in the flesh? You’re saying YAhusha is the father in the flesh?

[@aaronwilliford9732]

The law that held us captive would be the oral traditions that were added which God allowed. These have been compiled in what is now called the Talmud which isn’t all bad but what contradicts Gods law must be thrown out. This is where studying historical and cultural context is key. Most of what Messiah was going against and Paul as well were the oral traditions and misinterpretations of scripture not the written Torah. You’re forcing the Bible to contradict itself by not seeking cultural or historical context

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Thanks, Aaron! I agree with you that Jesus taught against man-made laws that many Jewish leaders had begun piling on top of Yahweh's Law. (But, technically, the concept of the Oral Law did not come into existence until after the second temple period when rabbinic Judaism began to form.) I also agree with you that Jesus and Paul-all the NT authors, in fact-did not teach against or in contrast to the written Torah. The Law of Moses was "holy and righteous and good" (Rom 7:12). And it was also temporary (Gal 3:24-25). Shalom, Rob

[@aaronwilliford9732]

We actually see the oral law coming right after the Babylonian exile was complete it just wasn’t written down until after the second temple period. I know because I converse with some Orthodox Jews that have come to Messiah and keep the law out of faith. Also, the ordinances against us would be the laws we broke

[@henryhodgens4312]

Rob, Next, in Romans 6:14, you appeal to GRACE in opposition to Torah as though these are competing concepts when, in fact, the GRACE referred to here is the GIVING of God Himself (Yeshua) as a human sacrifice in atonement for all humanity which pays our PAST sin-debt and allowed us to strive toward “perfection”. 8 For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: (Eph 2:8) What (Who) was given? MESSIAH / GOD. When we believe…have FAITH…in that Sacrifice our PAST sins are forgiven (Rom 3:25). Each day, then, we are RENEWED because the previous day’s sins are now PAST and forgiven and we can strive toward “perfection”. It’s this day-to-day struggle that proves our sincere love for God…so, don’t give up. God’s GRACE, then, is His willingness to forgive our sins because we believe / trust in His plan of salvation and strive to REFORM our lives. Note the following definition: GRACE - 3. Favorable influence of God; divine influence or the influence of the spirit, in RENEWING the heart and RESTRAINING from sin. (American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, 1828) This is where Romans 6 picks up: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should OBEY it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto SIN: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under GRACE. [Each day, when we admit our guilt and ask for forgiveness, we are RENEWED to strive toward righteousness, thus sin will not have dominion over us. This is God’s GRACE, His forbearance.] 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [Presuming upon God’s GRACE is licentiousness.] 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of OBEDIENCE unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have OBEYED FROM THE HEART that form of DOCTRINE (Torah / lively oracles, Acts 7:37,38) which was delivered you. 18 Being then MADE FREE FROM SIN, ye became the servants of righteousness. (Rom 6:12-18) What is SIN? 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW. (1 John 3:4) Shalom

[@TheBiblicalRoots]

Thanks, Henry! Great points about grace. As for 1 John 3:4, I think we have to take that as a generic sense of "lawlessness," which is how most translations render that verse. John is talking about being a law unto ourselves, being rebellious, refusing to submit to God's authority. The narrow definition implied by the KJV-that sin is transgressing the Law of Moses-is unbiblical. For example, if that were the case, Adam and Eve did not sin in the Garden. Blessings, Rob

[@johnvu3268]

Brothers and sisters... In the Apostolic writings (The Renew Covenant). The Savior-Messiah...[Yahshuah] teaches How to inherited Eternal Life. 16). And, behold, one came and said unto Him, GOOD Master, what good things shall I do, that I may have eternal life?... 17). And He (Our Messiah..[Yahshuah] said unto him, why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is Father...[Yahuah-GOD]; BUT HE THOU WILT ENTER INTO ETERNAL LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS (THE TEN LOVE COMMANDED COMMANDMENT)... (Matthew. 19: 16-17), kjv. The totals 613 is summarized in The Ten Love commanded Commandments, and the Ten Love commanded Commandments is summarize in the two greatest Commandments... And these Spoken Word of Father...[Yahuah-GOD] in His Holy-Bible, through King Solomon, from the book of Ecclesiastes, are important for us to meditate upon daily.... 7). Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto Father... [Yahuah-GOD] which gave it. 8). Vanity of vanities, saith The preacher (King Solomon); all is vanity. 12). And further, by these, my son, be admonished; of making many books there is no end; and much Study is weariness to the flesh. 13). LET US HEAR THE CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE MATTER: FEAR...FEAR... (mean reverence) to The Creator, our Heavenly Father...[Yahuah-GOD], and keep His Commandments: for this is the whole [DUTY] of MAN. 14). For Father...[Yahuah-GOD] shall bring every work into JUDGMENT, with every secret thing, whether it be GOOD, or whether it be evil... (Ecclesiastes. 12. 7, 8,12-14), kjv. Thus, after we read the whole Holy-Bible, from Genesis to the end of The book of Revelation. The Spoken Word of The Creator, our Heavenly Father...[Yahuah-GOD], through His only begotten Son [Yahshuah] the conclusion, the summary of the whole matter: 12). FEAR....FEAR...(Reverence) to The Creator, our Heavenly Father...[Yahuah-GOD], AND KEEP HIS INSTRUCTIONS, TEACHINGS, AND HIS TEN LOVE COMMANDED COMMANDMENTS WHICH IS ETERNAL: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE [DUTY] OF MAN... 13). For our Heavenly Father...[Yahuah-GOD] shall bring every work into JUDGMENT, with every secret thing, whether it be GOOD, or whether it be evil...(Ecclesiastes 12: 13-14), kjv... 7). And be [NOT] deceived; Father...[Yahuah-GOD] is NOT to be MOCKED; for whatsoever a man SOWETH, that shall he also REAP...(Galatians 6:7), kjv. AND THE HOLY-BIBLE SAID KEEPING, GUARDING OUR FATHER...[YAHUAH-GOD] TEN LOVE COMMANDED COMMANDMENT IS NOT BURDENSOME... 3). For this is the LOVE of Father...[Yahuah-GOD], that we keep His Commandments; and His Commandments are not burdensome... (1 John. 5: 3) Father...[YHWH-GOD] through His only begotten Son [Yahshuah]=[TORAH]: which is His instructions, teachings, and Commandments is Holy, is Love, is Life, and is Eternal... Hallelu-Yah !!...Shalom !!...,☺