Unengaged D&D Players Stressing Out This Dungeon Master GM 911

[@Nerdarchy]

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[@Nr4747]

Another great way to engage players is to bring a bit of a "Call of C'thulhu" vibe into the setting (without telling the players). It doesn't have to be directly from the Lovecraftian mythos, just some weird, otherworldly, cultist stuff - preferably with one or more of the spectator players seeing dark visions, having weird dreams or hearing whispers that only they can hear etc. There are 3 great things about this kind of hook: 1. It blends mystery and fighting very well (and makes it clear to the players that they'll have to solve the mystery eventually to prevent harder and harder encounters from overwhelming them), 2. you can ramp up the clues and the difficulty of the encounters naturally (because not solving the mystery means the cult isn't stopped from summoning/luring more and more powerful otherworldy beings etc.) and 3. most players will find this kind of plot fascinating (if it's used sparingly).

[@DonnieNarwhale]

some players aren't there to actually play and focus, some just do it as a social thing, its good to know how engaged your PC's want to be. i had pc's who were constantly distracted, smoking weed, constantly talking about real life events during the game and unable to remember what happened the week before. turns out they liked the social aspect but werent that into actually playing DND. its super important to choose like minded people, i learned that the hard way.

[@kennethwoody5897]

Hey guys, Sorry for the late response, I've tried a few of the suggestions you mentioned before the video was released. And was very up front about the goal in the face shoving, but that did not work. The sorceress of the party had her hermitage set up in part of the ruins of Zhentil Keep and she was very indifferent about her home being turned into a front base of a Liches armada. That being said, I was being very frontal about it. However I did find a strategy that worked out. I split the campaign into two groups, and its been working out great. Again, thanks for the video. - Kenneth Woody

[@JohanFaerie]

Simple start: Have an NPC walk up and directly talk to one of those characters. "Hey *Grumbly player #1* can your read this book? *Its in Elvish and no one else in the room is an Elf or half-Elf so that NPC would assume that they wouldn't know Elvish*" Its not a ton, but a start.

[@elgatochurro]

doesn't really work if you're a DM who wants to plant secrets in your game. i've had players ignore every almost plot hook or rumor they heard unless i put it right up smack in front of them and thats not what i want to do. the necromancer isnt busy rising his dead army in broad daylight right outside the fuckin inn you guys are at. even more insulting, i've had two of the players come up to me outside the game and say "hey your original idea for the game doesn't seem to be here, the maps are accurate and there's been no political or group conflicts" i then tell these players that they were the ones who say the evil druid in his own labyrinth where he was making the potions being distributed to the wealthy and the noble, and his whole goblin hoard with all the weird colory potion mixing and the animals being different from what they normally are and how the players are the ones who stopped that operation under the goblins but never really asked questions or told people about this druid or what he was doing or connecting the dots that the wild rampaging animals were also the very same animals he had in cages of various forms locked away to breathe and drink the elixirs poured into their enclosures... or how when i tried to show different monster groups fighting: half orcs running up to a band of goblins with a allosaurus in tow for some reason... they killed all of them, in fact one of the players who brought up the question, wondering why they're not involved in bigger plots is the jerk who jsut mindlessly killed the last orc fighter who was running away... the wiped out every living being there because it was an encounter... sure theyre all monsters but they're fighting each other, aka, plot hook, ask questions... so yeah when i just decided to stop trying anything plot wise involving the players and made a full sandbox because apparently thats what they wanted. in fact theyre now looking for a rumor which i gave them in the 3rd session of the game... back when they were level 3 as a way towards adventuring into the unknown... now they've been told the rough area by an npc and are finally adventuring towards there... and like i said to the previous player, you guys have fundamentally avoided all dangers, all plotlines, all rumors the npcs have ever provided, and then you want to look at me and go "why aren't we involved in something more meaningful" when you've been running around doing whatever you wished for no particular reason... no ones been asking questions and they talk to one npc per town on any situations, and i sometimes have npcs give them false or no information, wanting them to investigate...

[@bbeg-j2p]

4:22 "They have to view things multiple times in order to realize it's there." Exactly right. This is true with story hooks, mystery clues, puzzle cues, etc. I try to present these types of breadcrumbs and clues three times in different ways so in case the players miss one or two hooks or clues, by the third clue they've got something that catches their eyes. EG- If I want to entice the players to explore the old caves outside of the village they will overhear some NPCs talking about the old caves outside of town being haunted, they might find a map during an NPC encounter that points to the old caves, if they ask an NPC about the caves he'll tell them that a famous treasure hunter went to explore them and never returned. If NONE OF THAT piques their interest, then they might encounter an NPC who is looking to finance mercs to explore the old caves or else have an NPC the players know (perhaps even from background) go missing near the old caves. If they still don't take the bait, I table the hook and present others in the same sorts of ways.

[@mikegould6590]

We’ve had this problem at the table I play at. Plot points and hooks are placed before the spectator players wanting more, and they do nothing. Then they complain. There are three solutions as I see it. Put the spotlight on one of the two. Generate a story where this characters family or other concerns are in focus. Give that character the chance to rise. Then the same for the other spectator the next chance. The active player will go for whatever. If they don’t go for it, then don’t stress and just push forward. They’ll jump in when they jump in. They cannot bitch if they do not act. Or sit them all down and talk about it. Otherwise I can’t speak to DM style or how you drop hooks. Feel free to experiment with different styles. You’ll get it. It takes time.

[@Vrron1337]

Something else that might be part of the issue here is the spectator player's characters. I have several players in my group who do not have developed characters or backstories so I have nothing to use as a plot hook for them to latch onto. I have brought this problem up to them and asked them to do something about it with me helping as much as needed. I'm still working on it and have a few things I'm going to try if I can ever get them to communicate with me outside of sessions, but still have gotten no results from two of them. An ideas I have that might help this DM if they think this might be part of the problem is asking them if there are things that their characters would pursue if the opportunity presented itself as they might have ideas in their head, but that doesn't help if the DM doesn't know anything about them.

[@bryanjohnson5878]

you guys focused a lot on how the DM can try to cater to the "problem" players but as a player who is currently in a group where I find it mentally painful and stressing to try to engage with them I would like to offer a player perspective on how to solve this problem. from this perspective the DM needs to step up and listen to what the players are saying. in my case I have stated that I want to play in a Campaign. but the DM insists on running disconnected barely cohesive episodes that have nothing to do with each other. in this instance there is nothing the DM can do differently to engage me unless he steps up and gets a more serious long term game going because that's what I as a player would find engaging. I continue to play with them because I enjoy spending time with them. Back to this particular instance, at the tail end of the GM 911 he says that its the players story and he's just there to narrate. Here is a gripe from a player who has heard this from his GM. When I'm playing I want my GM to present a story and setting that I can interact with but when a GM tells me to make my own story I'm left feeling completely lost as I'm just dropped in a world with seemingly nothing going on. This problem will always be amplified to the extreme if the GM insists on this attitude because then you will always have the more vocal players pull the story where they want while the passive players just go along with it because there's literally nothing else to do. alternatively if all of your players are trying to tell their own story then you end up with everyone trying to go their own way and when someone gets pushed aside in this instance or worse outright ignored for another players direction than someone is going home unhappy. My advice for this GM is to step up and take control of the game. put the game on some tighter rails so that the party is brought into the game in a way that the active player isn't dragging the party around. DO NOT try to build a story around a party members background. from what was said in the GM 911 if only one player is actively following up on story hooks then you might just instantly put the passive players off if the more vocal player highjacks a session that was supposed to be about them. And as a final note he should also probably talk to the more active player in the group and tell them to STEP DOWN, I can't really emphasize this part well over text but it is definitely worth a shot to tell him/her to spend one session doing nothing and allowing the other players to dictate the direction of the story and engage in RP so that they can build up their characters. I apologize for the wall of text but thanks for the patience if you made it this far.

[@gambent6853]

I agree with you; it sounds like what the DM has been doing has not been working, and putting the players on tighter rails with a story to engage with may help them a lot more than having an open ended game at this point.

[@elgatochurro]

if you're feeling lost but want your own story.... do what every GM must do and MAKE SOMETHING UP "I WANT TO KILL THE DRAGON" "I WANT TO CRAFT THE FINEST LEATHER EVER MADE" "IS ANYTHING HAPPENING ON THE LAKE THE NEXT TOWN OVER? I'VE HEARD " "ITS SUMMER, I WANT TO GO BACK TO FOR THE SUMMER SONG FESTIVAL." IF YOU WANT SOMETHING LIKE THAT, HELP YOUR GM AND MAKE IT UP AND BRING IT UP IN CHARACTER. YOU ARE GIVING YOUR GM AN IDEA TO RUN WITH SESSIONS BEFOREHAND. YOUR CHARACTER IS LIVING IN THIS WORLD AND SHOULD BREATHE LIFE INTO IT AS WELL. if players refuse to step up, the most i as a dm can do is give them some adventure time and time again they'll want or enjoy. My own campaign as devolved from plot and intrigue into just sand boxing because thats all the players want, my players have actively avoided my plothooks and have no backstories to speak of, people they know of, friends or family, groups they used to be a part of, rivals of any order, etc. so everything to them is just new stuff and without them ever caring to question the plot or get information or even come up with their own ideas, they instead get just "plot" based on where they're going. they are actively doing nothing and have been. if they want to get involved in plotlines i'd say they are majorly behind the plot and have avoided it to rot and rust back where they left it.

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

"the story is centered on the spectator players [...] Their main complaint is that the story isn't about their characters" What. There's some miscommunication happening here that needs to get sorted out.

[@bryanjohnson5878]

from the sound of it the GM isn't doing a very good job of presenting the type of game the players want. the most telling part of his GM 911 was at the end when he says that the beauty of D&D is that its about the players, in my opinion this is faulty logic for a GM to have especially when players are stating that they don't feel the story is about them. The GM probably needs to get his act together and present a game for his players to play rather than wait around for the players to tell their own story

[@kennethwoody5897]

Yeah and I tried that very thing, the other players did not do anything even then.

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

So it seems to me like the first question is _what do the players want?_ If they don't want to play the game... maybe you need to look for a new table? Of course it's entirely possible that they don't know what they want - so paying attention, listening carefully, will go a long way here.

[@bryanjohnson5878]

+Kenneth Woody sorry for being presumptuous in my suggestion. notoriouswhitemoth is correct that you need to figure out what kind of game the players want and then try to deliver on that. as for advice since we aren't playing at your table any suggestions we offer are just best guess and it'll be up to you to try matching a proper solution to your players. that being said here goes. my original post assumed that there was a misunderstanding in how you believed you were presenting the story versus how the players were interpreting the story. I assumed that the players were the kind of players that wanted to establish themselves in an existing world and make it their own rather than have a world just kind of spring up around them, which in my experience is a common pitfall that may break a players immersion and in turn make them feel like their actions don't have purpose since it feels like it doesn't really matter what they do since there is no established world for them to explore. This is at least the case with myself.If players aren't engaged in the story you are presenting there are a couple of common reasons. one reason could be that the players don't find the story to be pressing or relevant to their character motivations. reason two that comes to mind is that the players feel that their voice is being overshadowed or ignored by the more vocal player resulting in the game going in directions they don't like. the last reason that's coming to mind at the moment is that the players don't like the tone or theme of the game at the moment. if players want a serious tone and the game is too comedic or vice versa they might not know how to behave in game and in turn not act at all. the same can be said if a player wants a more political campaign but they keep finding themselves in action scenesAt the end of the day it comes down to how well you know your players and finding a balance between what each one wants from the game. Edit: apologies for the wall of text

[@kennethwoody5897]

All good man, and I appreciate all the suggestions you guys have put forth

[@kyubii972]

I had this problem with a player as well. Luckily only one. He was playing a kensei monk and he is a video gamer who in the ND seems to really only care about how big is damage numbers can get . So I came up with a table that had various poisonous herbs and what not that he could pick up and craft poisons from. It took me maybe 40 minutes to make the table using a random name generator for plants. I also gave him a sentient Dagger of venom it had the spirit of a Yuan-ti within it. Once I was able to speak to his character in his own head he really opened up to role playing with the other players we all worried for a moment the dagger would corrupt him but eventually he chose to have a god they had met purify the dagger for him.

[@borisstremlin4577]

Try to make it about the spectator players, not "all the players". The third player sounds like a self-starter, and should be able to adapt and find his own goals in a storyline that seems to be centered around the other two. That said, some players are nearly impossible to motivate. If you find you've given 100% to trying to engage them, and they're still complaining about not being engaged, perhaps it's not a good match. Cast around for other players. Organize a one shot with others, and see if you're getting more out of it. You're supposed to be having fun, too, and if you have other options, you might look at this game differently. Sometimes, "it's not you, it's them" is a perfectly valid answer.

[@gambent6853]

It sounds like the DM is focusing too much on having an open-world adventure, when he needs to make a story that will make the characters heroes. Backstories are great, and can and should be something you mine as a DM, but it's not the end goal. Give the players a reason to act and make decisions. If they don't feel like the story is about them, then perhaps you need to come up with a better way to engage those players. Nerdarchy has some great tips here. That being said, if you want further help, there are two videos I recommend below that may help DM's with the problem of engaging players: Runehammer's Video on the Moral Imperative - kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6OYoHisnLVpidk Matt Coleville's Video on Verbs - kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWfakHeIfbd3eq8 The Moral Imperative is a bit abstract, but Hankerin does a good job at describing how to define and use this tool that we as DM's typically use, but don't have a word for. It's that moment where you put a choice in front of the players in a way that evokes emotion from them. Using the Moral Imperative as a tool, you should feel free to create scenarios where you use an NPC the spectator players care about in a way that engages them and forces their characters to act and make a choice. These are the moments that force the reluctant hero to become the active hero. It's a great way to create drama which may engage your two players a bit more, because the outcome hinges on their choices. Also, find a good 'Verb' that is simple for your players to grasp, and gives them a clear goal to follow. It's an objective, or a means to an objective, that is more concise than open ended. Sometimes, players don't know how to engage in certain situations because they need a better Verb. This helped me out a ton in a solo game I was running, where my player had so many options that she didn't know what to choose. Giving her a better verb channeled her choices in a more constructive direction. It doesn't force the players into one choice, but it does give them a good direction so that they can engage and make choices. All of this said, you may have to reign in your active player a bit, in order to give your spectators a chance to shine and be engaged, but don't stifle his initiative or creativity either. It's just important for him to know that the other players need to have a chance to role play and engage in the setting as well. Whew, well that was long winded. Hope some of this helps. Best of luck!

[@2ndGenBen]

I HATE these kinds of players, our groups always had a no phone policy

[@kyubii972]

The last comment Dave makes is the most important thing if your players are still showing up you are doing something right, I've only DM'd 1 campaign so far but asking your players after the games did they have fun? And really asking what did they find fun about it is another good place to start if you really have no idea what they might enjoy. For some players they want to deal lots of damage so you want to throw cool combat and counters at them.

[@kyubii972]

If you can't use anything from their background it's probably because they didn't create a very great backstory for their character and you don't need much. Perhaps offer them the chance to change their background, the same monk player I mentioned earlier used to be a soldier as soon as he swapped to a Hermit and he and I walked through creating a background for his character he felt more active at the table and cared more about what his character did.

[@KyleMacNcheese]

Advice: blaze some of that Feywild OG Kush

[@kyubii972]

KyleMacNcheese yes because nothing makes players better then them forgetting what they were going to do every time it comes to their turn during combat and there's nothing better than a player being so stoned out of his head that he can't remember what dice he is supposed to roll.

[@JohanFaerie]

XD that reminds me of a one shot where one character was a High Elf wizard and his magic focus was a joint. So was literally a Hiiiiigh Elf.

[@KyleMacNcheese]

Hahaha I like it ;)

[@KyleMacNcheese]

They clearly have a low Con score

[@kyubii972]

And if the other player who is really into the game can involve them in however small that way even if it's just a trip to the local Merchant stalls that might be enough to hold them in the game and make them feel like hey the other player at the table wants me in this world with them they want me to participate.