Union representing sub-postmasters repeatedly ignored Horizon IT concerns | ITV News

How was it the Post Office were able to go about criminalising hundreds of innocent people for more than a decade without as much as a peep from the National Federation of Subpostmasters (NFSP), which represents the vast majority of self-employed sub-postmasters?
ITV News can reveal that the union repeatedly ignored concerns over Horizon IT.
Nick Wallis reports.
Read the full report on the ITV News website here: www.itv.com/news/2024-03-20/u...
• Subscribe to ITV News on KZbin: bit.ly/2lOHmNj
• Get breaking news and more stories at www.itv.com/news
Follow ITV News on Facebook: / itvnews
Follow ITV News on Twitter: / itvnews
Follow ITV News on Instagram: / itvnews

[@robertstorey7476]

The union seems to have been acting on behalf of the post office rather than its members. Its shocking stuff.

[@marksavage1108]

Being paid to do one specific thing and doing the exact opposite,

[@davekeith576]

Corrupt the representative is the motto , unions MPs legality doctors and universities .The price is right .Hmmm.

[@WeeShoeyDugless]

I heard in another 'news' video that the PO virtually or wholly 'paid off'(?) the unions to get them out the way!

[@johnwall8862]

Let's get this right the so called union was part of the post office it wasn't independent

[@rjjcms1]

Shameful. Not fit for purpose.

[@DavidJohnson-yg8qm]

Vennells lied under oath at a parliamentary meeting, she is on record, she needs to be severely dealt with.

[@gordonwilson6553]

jail time for destroying the post masters lives make an example her and the other arrogant boss

[@TS-1267]

... Well we Can't Take Her Beauty away From Venells. Community Service as a Gargoyle HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🥂🌄

[@neuralwarp]

20 years hard labour for her crimes. Then the rest of her life in a nunnery for betraying the Church.

[@PhillipHartley-tl1hi]

All the liars from the Post Office need to go to jail, see how they like it.

[@michaelmcginley7930]

Vennels is not going to jail that's a given

[@obtuse1291]

Once they get to the trough, they forget why they first went there. Right out of Animal Farm. 😢

[@pinballrobbie]

Well said.

[@ElToro2000UK]

The Postmistress near me had a Heart Attack (In her late 40's) whilst all this went on and I have found out, since the TV program, that she had been paying from her own money, to ballance the books. Shame on the Union.

[@molliekat2075]

Horrible. I'm so ashamed I didn't send a contribution to their cause all those years ago. Good on those who supported them.

[@jasonreed8812]

All the premiums paid to the NFSP should be returned with interest to the sub postmasters immediately. They did nothing but were happy to receive those premiums. What a disgrace.

[@michaelmcginley7930]

Agreed

[@bobblehat6603]

Let us be clear. The NFSP is a department of the Post Office. The NFSP exists because it is funded by the Post Office. It does not receive membership subscriptions. The Post Office gives it money. Lots of it. Every year. The NFSP is wholly complicit in the Horizon scandal. It threw its own members under a bus, as policy, in order to protect the Post Office brand. And now, in a cynical and desperate move, it has turned on the Post Office in order to justify its existence. On 3 Feb 2015, the NFSP's then General Secretary George Thomson told MPs during a select committee inquiry without offering any evidence: "Over the 15 years, the Horizon system has been fantastically robust." and Horizon had been "a very strong system from day one." On the subject of IT errors, Thomson dismissed them, saying: "Sub-postmasters sometimes think that the problem has to be the Horizon system when in effect it was mistakes by members of staff or misappropriation." The NFSP is not an organisation passively accepting the Post Office line. It is actively promoting a lie.

[@r8chlletters]

Yes someone needs to also hold the union to account. We’ve heard almost nothing about this.

[@lynneroberts3628]

Stop paying union fees.

[@gwynjames2077]

Unions are they there to help the workers ? Or to push political agendas ? seems to be the second these days and doesn't help thw ordinairy folk.

[@WeeShoeyDugless]

​@@gwynjames2077 Been like that for decades.

[@michaelmcginley7930]

This union leader looks like a forelok tugget

[@adeptusmagi]

Well yeh the union rep who Did stand up for them suddenly found his wifes subpost office missing thousands the day after he visited fujitsu very obviously a retaliatory deliberate alteration in my opinion so no wonder union reps were running scared its very probable that the union reps were all sub post masters themselves so they were over a barrel It would be more profitable to investigate the contracts they signed if the contract said only they could change the data and it was a private system for their post office then Fujitsu was hacking their systems which should get fujitsu Banned from all gov contracts

[@anthonyroxby9093]

Another bent Union leader, too many free lunches on the post office or something similar.

[@johnpirie4804]

Time for a class action against this union.

[@jesmarina]

Despicable actions by a Union. You're paid to bloody represent your members.

[@andydudley1775]

1 did try i guess that the post office was sending a message to the reps .like they did convicting sub post master's .

[@redwez1982]

Awesome doorstepping from that reporter. Didn’t take the bullshit. Knew more facts than his target. Give that man a raise. That’s real journalism.

[@AndyA1234]

I worked as a postman for 3 years & it's the most toxic work environment I've worked in. If you're thinking about it as a job, don't.

[@paulslater9061]

Makes you wonder which organisation isn't corrupt doesn't it

[@philipbrown5468]

Keep all ya lotto tickets or do it on line just in case they are corrupt aswell

[@markbullen5989]

Yep

[@GurungyNoHamuster]

The NFSP is on record as being part of the PO management. They are not really a union at all. Heads will roll.

[@iamthenomad2k]

Head of Union needs to go to prison

[@j.j.1064]

The plot thickens. "I cannot comment, because the"investigation"is ongoing. Meanwhile the search for the ball in the long long grass continues.

[@user-ho4rv6kg8u]

Politicians exist for the benefit of politicians. Unions exist for the benefit of unions.

[@davidpearson243]

They were funded by the Post Office so not a proper independent union !!!!!

[@WeeShoeyDugless]

​​@@davidpearson243 A union is meant to be a union. If they are not a 'proper independent union' then they are taking money from their members under false pretences and should be thoroughly investigated. Like Scargill, I bet they are all comfortable with lovely big houses!!😊

[@reddirtuk]

​Subpost masters don't pay a sub to the NFSP, the NFSP is paid for by the post office. So not a TUC affiliate more a Post Office controlled association.

[@hecateswolf6007]

Absolutely

[@roddersfiftynine]

YT is currently cancelling channels critical of the Post Office and the Horizon system. George Orwell says hello !!!

[@sbeasley1785]

I regularly get notices flashed up by YT telling me “I may have breached their guidelines and my comment removed” - of course they won’t reveal exactly what comment or say what is untrue about any comment….it’s all deceit day in and day out from “authority” .

[@user-ho4rv6kg8u]

YT is censoring ,or malfunctioning on, a variety of subjects.

[@michaelmcginley7930]

Its disgraceful if youtube are doing this.they should lose their licence if they dont offer a credible reason why they are doing this

[@richy69ify]

Horizon seem to have unlimited funds. Very easy to pay people off. 1 million pay off per person is peanuts to them.

[@malcolmmcrobert9853]

I've also been warned off by Utube for using the term, 'Shotgun ' in my judgement on how to resolve the problem of the top-level despicable people who knowingly created this horror. It was plainly tongue in cheek, (aye, maybe) but I still got the warning ⚠️

[@auldflyer]

Hardly surprising the NFSP was largely funded by the Post Office?

[@continental_drift]

A trojan horse.

[@robertstorey7476]

As they say if you want to understand why people behave in a certain way then follow the money.

[@rbnhd1144]

@@robertstorey7476 Always follow the Money, it never fails to get results.

[@barrymak8061]

Take legal action against these COWARDS

[@Kaylee911]

I look forward to hearing him at the PO Enquiry

[@alansharman3644]

I look forward to seeing him in jail.

[@Jeannelawes]

Is it me or shouldn't FUJITSU be footing the bill or us taxpayers?

[@avryllsixtus3429]

Yes I wonder about that..why was Fujitsu able to access at night the computer systems the the sub post offices..it would be like Microsoft accessing our laptops and altering data...why did the Post Office continually deny.this intrusion from a secret room at Fujitsu and then have a helpline which knew it could not help these people and lied saying they were the only one to complain. Heads should roll..all those who knew the system could be accessed and..data changed even when the postmaster was using their laptop at the time. It is obvious that over 900 people are not dishonest when the contract was their livelihood ..I bet bells did ring but instead of admitting Horizon was at fault and they had made over 900 mistakes..they went onto the attack to blame the post office staff of theft. Would a tiny Post office do 74,000 pounds worth if business a day selling stamps, postal orders or from people paying bills etc. even a gorilla could have seen that something was wrong and insist Fujitsu re_cgecked Horizon..but no..The P.O.knew all along the Horizon system was flawed as per the recording of that secret PO meeting which was suppressed.. There were crimes committed and they have to be accountable for deliberately concealing flaws and causing innocent lives to be destroyed, people to die by suicide and people jailed for crimes they did not commit. And then not to repay the stolen money but to steal it and account for it as profits....so their accountants were in on it as well plus the auditors..Afterall profits come from somewhere so yes ...false accounting as well. What a disgrace..how do these PO high ups sleep at night...badly I hope.

[@andydudley1775]

it it's proven to be a paula too.

[@anthonyroxby9093]

You might be right, however, if they can prove they informed the post office managers of this problem and the post office ignored them that's a different scenario, tricky legal case.

[@user-bu9nb8wr6e]

No spine.

[@solpat1977]

How dare the UK point the finger at other nations on the subject of corruption, when this scandal stinks to high heaven? They should disband the union and make it give back all the contributions made by the wronged postmasters and postmistress, on top of the compensation they eventually receive. A putrefying corpse doesn’t smell bad as this major miscarriage of justice.

[@peterw4338]

The UK has always been one of the most corrupt countries in the World however, the media does not call corruption by its real name

[@Nicksexploring]

What are you talking about? This scandal is under investigation, the uk is perfectly within its right to criticise any corruption anywhere else.

[@peterw4338]

@@Nicksexploring It took too long to come to the attention of the public; plus this is only one of many.

[@michaeltoohey1385]

@@Nicksexploring This is the fourth decade of this scandal, the fact of the UK taking issue with this horror story only in recent times is not a good look.

[@whizzo94]

Typical Union, they take your subs and then don't do anything when you actually need their help. Too busy living it up on the member's contributions. I have personal experience of needing a union's help and not getting it, though nothing in comparison to the poor sub-postmasters.

[@vivalaleta]

If you're a union member pass union laws that no member can stay in power for over 6 months. Look at Sean Fein in the US or Britain's Mick Lynch. If your union's broke work to fix it because it's the only safeguard you have as a worker.

[@ElToro2000UK]

Champagne Socialists, the lot of them. Just look at Steve Crow, living in a Council House whilst earning mega amounts of money, but said he was entitled to the house. Good job, he didn't last that long!

[@Trevor_Austin]

People don’t pay enough to get proper unions. I paid 1% of my gross salary in union dues. In return we were well represented and were able to continually improve our T’s & C’s to the point where union membership (tax deductible) more than paid for itself. The union? BALPA.

[@mrmyorky5634]

How true, I was a lifetime member of the engineering union AUEW when the company that I worked for closed down. I contacted my branch secretary on behalf of the five engineers that worked there and was told 'Sorry, but there's nothing at all we can do about it'. It was a printing company and the rest of the factory employes were in the (NGA) the printers union. The NGA Union Rep was good enough to offer to support us and in the end the five of us were awarded a decent severance payment. The disgraceful AUEW union was not even prepared to show their face.

[@whizzo94]

@@mrmyorky5634 The union that I was a member of when I needed their help was the AUEW.

[@philippepalmer2968]

It's misleading to say the NFSP are a trade union.Following a ruling of the Employment Appeal Tribunal that subpostmasters were not employees of Post Office Ltd, but were engaged under a contract for services, the Trades Union Certification Officer wrote to the NFSP to say that he believed the organisation did not meet the legal requirements to continue to be recognised as a trade union. Having rejected arguments against this by the NFSP, the Certification Officer stripped the organisation of trade union status in 2014.Via a democratic vote, members chose overwhelmingly to reject amalgamation with other trade unions.The NFSP changed its status to a trade association in 2016.Since 2016 membership of the NFSP does not charge a yearly membership fee or monthly subs to subpostmasters. The NFSP instead receives funding from Post Office Ltd, consisting of an annual grant payment and funding for approved projects that are made under a Grant Framework Agreement introduced in 2015.

[@terryboland3816]

So it took membership fees throughout the period that subpostmasters were being convicted using the faulty Horizon data?

[@gbear1005]

Collusion proven

[@mewel1234]

The TUC decided in 2013 that subpostmasters were not workers although they paid employee National Insurance and had been workers for decades. Around that time people were starting to question Horizon more so they did a quick exit from responsibility. If Horizon had failed during the 1999 to 2010 Labour government it would have been a political disaster for the Labour Party as it was the most expensive system in Europe , excluding military. If Horizon had to be replaced instead of launched by Tony Blair it may have cost them in an election.

[@ukdave57]

NFSP receives funding from POL, now that explains things. Thanks for the insight.

[@PeterKitching]

This whole story is an attempt by interested parties and their media allies to distract the public and deflect blame to others. Shame on ITN for misleading the public with factually incorrect reporting. Do they really not know the NFSP is NOT a union nor a member of the TUC or are they happily pursuing a wider union bashing agenda?

[@keegan773]

I understand that the Union involved was/is financed by the Post Office itself. They are never going to bite the hand that feeds it.

[@derekwhite2929]

Is this like before with the Liverpool dockers Union and it turned out the leader was working for MI6?

[@peterbennett5910]

Need to check if Post Office Board Directors including Vennells made payments to Thompson. Directly or indirectly. If you were able to dig deep enough I'm sure something would be found

[@realhorrorshow8547]

This is being spun as a story about a union, so the usual suspects are jumping in. The National Federation of Sub Postmasters is NOT a union. In 2013 the Post Office refused to recognise it as a union for the purposes of collective bargaining, insisting that Sub-Postmasters were not employees, but self-employed contractors. Since 2016 the NFSP stopped collecting membership fees and is now funded by... Post Office Ltd.

[@terryboland3816]

So it collected membership fees throughout the period that subpostmasters were being prosecuted and convicted on the basis of the faulty Horizon data?

[@mewel1234]

The TUC decided that Subpostmasters were not “ workers “ in 2013 although they paid employee National Insurance contributions and had been “ workers” for decades. The TUC had protected the Labour government since 1999 to 2010. If Horizon ( the most expensive computer system in Europe, apart from military) had to be scrapped and replaced at a waste of £billions of taxpayer’s money, it may have brought Blair’s and Brown’s government down. Did they kick NFSP out to hide their involvement Strange fact around 2013 more and more people were questioning Horizon. TUC needs investigated and made to pay up.

[@janeday9148]

Well done ITV .NFSB well we all know who they are now & what a good job they did protecting " The Brand " what a total jobsworth

[@user-ie4ft2lo8w]

Sue the unions for misrepresentation

[@JelMain]

Beware, individual commentators are being cancelled by YT.

[@andydudley1775]

yep yt like to protect where the money at .we cant upset paula it might hurt her feelings.

[@marksavage1108]

I have found lots of my posts missing, I have reverted to giving my own comments a thumbs up to give it some type of credibility to stop them, taking it down. and as with facebook I have had 2 bans of 24 hours and NOT told which post offends their sensitivities.

[@markrobinson1458]

Typical union leader ducking the question, he's looking like he's not gone short of a butty, another don't rock the boat leader 😡

[@richardstone3473]

Royal College of Nursing is the same. In a dispute they automatically side with management

[@annapacyniak3940]

That's why I don't have nothing good to say about union, they are lazy people getting away with doing nothings and getting money of the company 😂. For years same people are milking companies but when you have a problem they tell you deal with it yourself 😂😂happens everywhere!

[@Trevor_Austin]

Georgie Porgy was too busy eating pies.

[@marcusanderson-yeager6740]

File a major legal action!

[@nicholasdickens2801]

It is beyond sickening and biblical in how absolutely everything that was supposed to work didn’t just nit work it went into the completely opposite direction.

[@delaporteful]

putting INOCENT people in jail....and notice how the rich ones get off with it.

[@dustyrider244]

That union guy in the car is a disgrace

[@ncooper8438]

The NHS and Unite - buddies.

[@craighodkinson60]

Probably, the union took a back hander to protect the Post Office, not sub post masters. That is my opinion.

[@mr.t8830]

Even the union was crooked 🤦

[@michaeldonaghy3997]

why not sack the people in charge of the Union and let a board of the Subpostmaster victims run it instead? They will actually be looking out for the best interests of the Subpostmasters

[@mr.t8830]

What a coward

[@bobsanders9500]

"The vast majority of members didn't have problems with it..." What a load of bollocks. He didn't want to risk his cushy job by asking awkward questions. I hope he gets a grilling at the inquiry.

[@davidwhitehouse2162]

It is rather telling about the nature of a persons character, when the spotlight falls on them, having to justify their attitudes and decisions that were questionable and seemingly obdurate, leading to notions of wrongdoing. The investigation into the Post Office scandal is revealing some of the worst aspects of human nature, and also an endeavour for criminal justice, and where sheer arrogance is not accepted in mitigation.

[@MrTelboy1962]

I experience 'help' from the Union at Peterborough City Council many years ago. I lost my job, my income and my dignity and gained a basket of fruit! My case was being off sick due to work related stress (long story). The Union Rep was situated in a nice office, paid by the council, company car, plenty of paid Jollies to Union meetings etc. I suppose, with hindsight had I have been in his position I may have continue to steady the ship and continue to enjoyed the ride. The offer of Temptation and self betterment is a powerful tool for employers to adopt.

[@mikeowen1192]

The failure of organisations failing the postmaster's is disgraceful at the end of the day it's all about money ,so many people involved in this scandal,

[@colinnewlands743]

I worked for a company who told me they didnt need a trade union because they had established a "works federation". I said "thank you but I will continue to be a member of my trade union" That did not go down well and I was always looked on with suspicion. Ultimately I was sacked but my union advice ensured I was given a good redundancy deal. There is no way a Works federation would have got me anything. Dont get conned by this nonsense.

[@johnrowland3105]

Where does representing the interests of the post office stop and representing it's workforce begin ? Because it's the one blindingly irritating thing about ALL this ! Managers and union officials using phrases like 'Protecting the brand' doesn't sound like there's ANY independent thought beyond it.

[@reddirtuk]

Not a trade union but an association, paid for by the post office not members subs.

[@davegreenwood1663]

Another one for some porridge time.

[@neuralwarp]

Abolish trade unions and directors. We need trustees and managers elected by and from staff for 2 year terms.

[@catherine7484]

Heads of this ''Union'' should be added to the prosecution list. In the first place, how does a union allow its members to be financially responsible when they have no access to the accounting process? Were they paid off to allow it?

[@johnwall8862]

The union was part of the post office it wasn't independent

[@jonathantatler]

Vennells, and clearly others, should be imprisoned for this, who thinks that will happen ?

[@veritas5008]

The Post Office unions (and those in Royal Mail) are more in bed with the managers that they are with their members. From my experience at Royal Mail, the union simply operated as another level of management, albeit under the guise of supporting their members. When I joined Royal Mail as a Postie, it was a case of "Join the Union or you will be preyed upon by managers and supervisors - and if you didn't, you would be preyed upon by your fellow workers". What a cancerous and destructive work culture. Unions are not their to serves their members, that mission ended a long time ago. Unions are there to serve themselves.

[@martinreed1401]

The NFSP is funded by the Post Office - what do you expect

[@hecateswolf6007]

Excellent journalism for a change

[@alanhindmarch4483]

The Union Official are supposed to help its members, not be concerned for the Employers Business, that’s got nothing to do with the Union. The Executives of the Union want charging as well for be complicit in the actions of the post office against its members.

[@nigellee9824]

20 years ago, i was suspended for losing mail, my union was absolutely useless, and told me to look for another job....my wife's boss was a barrister, and had my name cleared and returned to work...

[@theresawinchester3834]

The union leaders need to be proactive for their lack of support and help to their members.

[@KeepItSimpleSailor]

The more we learn, the more disgustingly so many people have behaved.

[@peterflynn3657]

Disgraceful Union - shame on them.

[@davidchapman7904]

Nice to see Helen Baker again as I ran the Post office in the next village to her,

[@andrearoberts1953]

I don't get it. Why are these people still trying to cover things up when this whole thing has blown wide open. The faster they acknowledge things the faster this can be done.

[@dora71803]

Hand in glove, no surprise.

[@dnb55]

How does a union leader last so long when not backing your members.

[@yetidodger6650]

don't let the many politicians from all sides walk away Scott free either.

[@marcellasheridan269]

I don’t know how anyone can be shocked to know their union that they pay fees to is in bed with the business you work for

[@harrydebastardeharris987]

Remote Access goes to the heart of criminality in this sorry,tragic fracas. Once RA had been found out the COURTS,MET,Regional Police Forces should of investigated.

[@phil4499]

Stop paying union 'subs' now. 😳

[@chrisfell5073]

Horizon was defective before 1999. Miller a Director (and later temporary CEO in 2003) called it robust when he knew there were defects and bugs which were never fixed. I cannot find this being reported. 25 years ago!! Has anybody been watching the Post Office Enquiry. A whole host of Directors need to be in the Dock as well as losing their pensions! The whole affair is just obscene,disgusting and abhorrent.

[@bullet-catcherhohoho250]

These people need to go to prison for the total amount of time, all the wrongly convicted did.

[@rogernewman5903]

Perhaps the Post office paid more to the sub postmaster’s representatives. Never bite the hand that feeds you.

[@geralduk631]

Not exactly a union. It was a federation of all the self-employed sub-post-masters.

[@tl411]

They should sue the union. How much did Thompson get paid by Horizon, the post office or Fujitsu.

[@davidchapman7904]

i wrote a letter to Federations magazine saying the federation was not fit for purpose, i still have George Thompsons direct reply in writring in March 2018. I pulled them up on several points although the Federation magazine decided to edit my full letter to him. he was a waste of Space and i told the Federation that.

[@michaeltoohey1385]

Let's hear from Judge Thompson.

[@dustyrider244]

This fiasco should not be made to go away, this should not be a government decision it needs to be the law courts. Any compensation should come from individuals pockets and not the tax players

[@fireskycam9889]

Don't "Damage the brand" Mr Thompson.

[@keithsmith1173]

Bought and paid for ......as they say.

[@johnwhelan1951]

They should repay all sub-postmasters subscriptions. They've taken money under false pretences.

[@jack1d1XB]

Oh yeah, 'Let's blame the Union, the perfect Patzy', sure, 😂😊😅

[@MichaelGill-im8wh]

How sick and sad this happend. 🙀

[@X94Caz]

Nfsp never backed us up.

[@user-zl8pt5jv9c]

Some obvious complicity or corruption going on here ...blood is on his hands!!

[@cathhewitt8366]

The ever growing big rolling ball gathers more moss as it rolls, totally disgusting where innocent people have suffered from a big business

[@gherkamum]

Vennells Lied....

[@tkshots]

why haven't paula vennells,and many others,been arrested?

[@hecateswolf6007]

It was his job to do what Mr Bates did. He let everyone down.

[@colinireson9339]

That union leader has a nice set of wheels. Just saying.

[@williamsummers6438]

The question that nobody seems to ask is where did the money go. There must have been a recorded destination for the money. Where was it? Is it likely to be Fujitsu employees.

[@rbnhd1144]

Why would a Union leader not fight and just roll over, he happily took their subs, but when it came time for the tough work he gave up and believed the Liars. Very Poor judgement on his part, It makes me think had it easy and didn't want to give that up.

[@johndumarney1630]

In the 80's we were took out on strike for 2 weeks by the Union. Totally for the companys benefit. Its pointless to go through all the details but its a fact. I've never been a member of a "Union" since

[@davidmcminn162]

The Post Office HQ culture was/is typical of a previous monopoly organisation. Lazy, arrogant, slow to adapt, wouldn't listen to criticism, unsympathetic to its very own staff. That's A-level Business Studies / Economics.

[@simonford7663]

The union was obviously in the pocket of the post office bosses

[@fasthracing]

I think Mr Thompson (and his colleagues) also have serious questions to answer.

[@AntSudbury-tv3we]

Lying ,Jeremy Hunt, jail that man ,