Universe is full of aliens | Robin Hanson and Lex Fridman

Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Robin Hanson: Alien Ci...
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GUEST BIO:
Robin Hanson is a professor at George Mason University and researcher at Future of Humanity Institute at Oxford.
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[@rob.ny-la]

I feel so lucky to be a human living on earth amongst everyone here. I’m on lunch eating a rice crispy treat watching this.

[@obisan666]

Enjoy

[@Triple7000]

I actually think you got it figured out my friend. It's all about enjoying the here and now. It really is that simple. And a Rice krispie treat is a great reminder of that

[@lolivator7255]

thank you for this comment

[@seanbyrne8767]

😊👌🏼

[@aaronjapo]

Rice Krispee Treat 'n Aliens FTW.

[@OzLeedsCrew]

As an intergalactic stripper working at the Outlander Club in the Uscru Entertainment District on the planet Coruscant, I've certainly dealt with a few 'Grabby Aliens' in my time

[@Yukkynukkls]

The outlander club is an intergalactic shit hole.. everybody knows that.. 'lefty the righty left right' ran that place into the galactical landfill after the old man passed .00034 seconds ago.. its a shame.. get outve there b4 its too late 😅

[@lolispankbank]

What time you work

[@OzLeedsCrew]

@@lolispankbank Fri/Sat 10-2am

[@lolispankbank]

@@OzLeedsCrew ok I'll be there

[@thegeniusofthecrowd354]

How many nimblies for a fubwopper?

[@blinkybit]

I love how lex always sounds just a tiny bit drunk.

[@Chris-sg4th]

Lmao so funny but true.

[@JEKAZOL]

That was my thought! Like tired, drunk robot in a man suit.

[@Mister_Merzen]

The real twist is… he is! 😆

[@Henry-kv7zl]

He is Russian after all

[@kennyrogers3919]

It’s because he’s a little bit autistic but he’s also extremely intelligent

[@jacquesdemaille8653]

As a society we are so not ready to expand outside of our planet. We still have way too many people who can't get along with their neighbors who look/act a little different to themselves. How do you think our civilization will respond to an alien that looks like a bug? Shoot on site? Our technological growth is outpacing our spirituality.

[@jamesleon4883]

I think that’s why (theory) there is so much stuff with marvel etc. Like they are trying to mentally prepare the world. Within 50 years people won’t care if there are other species out there. Like the use of atomics and rockets made some alien civilisations think ok let’s slowly integrate these bald apes.

[@oneman5753]

Agreed

[@bouzoukiman5000]

That makes no sense

[@ian_does_cool_things]

It's not societies fault, we are being constantly manipulated and put in a state artificial stress and scarcity

[@sparkmanuk]

The answer to a alien bug getting killed is a good bug with a gun.

[@HigherPlanes]

Terence McKenna used to call modern civilization a phase transition between tree dwelling monkeys and star flight. I've always loved that quote.

[@koplak9809]

Whos Terrence McKenna ?

[@HigherPlanes]

@@koplak9809 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna

[@librajedi]

@@HigherPlanes 😂😂😂 I like what you did there, and that is a nice accurate quote

[@HigherPlanes]

@@librajedi yes indeed. McKenna was the dude. Such a great mind.

[@dirtypure2023]

@@koplak9809 Listen to some of his lectures. A profound intellect that doesn't get enough mainstream credit because of his connection to psychedelics and some of the other fringe things he dabbled in.

[@mandoblack8654]

"Aliens are everywhere, I'll prove it in 10 million years!" 🤪

[@mikeharper3784]

My mom showed me an alien once, a Klingon. It was when she was about to start the laundry and she grabbed me and made me look at the Cling Ons that were stuck to the inner backside of my Batman underwear. But what the hey - that was ten million years ago. I’m a big boy now and now my wife has to deal with the Klingons. Live long and prosper 🖖

[@PoeLemic]

@@mikeharper3784 ha ha ha ... You're more entertaining than half of what Smarty-ass Guest said ...

[@clancykelly5508]

@@PoeLemic Must hurt to know you're not as smart as others. Your bitterness is sad.

[@HexMarksthespot]

This was like a highly intellectual version of "Who's on 1st"

[@toddb6576]

Best comment so far

[@nickgoodlock263]

You have to remember when we look at the sky were looking back in time. If we're looking at a star that's 100,000 light years away then we're seeing what was there a 100,000 years ago. So just because we can't see anything alien related doesn't mean something hasn't been put there in the 100,000 year since the light were seeing left its starting point.

[@PoeLemic]

Yes, thanks. You did a great job of explaining it. Better than Mr. Smarty on here.

[@Waterbug1591]

I'm confused by the slow and fast expanding concept. Let's assume that a dinosaur around 6 million years ago would see an alien civilization in the skies that supposedly existed 1 billion years ago, fast forward to modern day, we would still see the alien civilization in around the 1,000,000,000 + 6,000,000 = 1,006,000,000 year frame/mark, unless they conveniently disappeared within the time frame of those 6 million years, otherwise we would still see them or their remnants, am I right? So how does the slow and fast expansion tie in to this hypothetical example?

[@Jimmy2shoes2shoes]

Also… if we could somehow put a massive mirror really far out into space and we used a telescope we could view it from and hence view ourselves in this mirror.. then we could look back in time on earth. Watcha think about that? We could literally see dinosaurs n shit.. get on that Elon!

[@jonathanhaehnel5421]

​@@Waterbug1591 you are right, but we don't see any civilization currently. that means there are no slow developing civilizations. so what's left is fast developing civilizations that we will not see until couple of millions years before they come to us.

[@alexanderthegreat_CarGuy]

Exactly! So many people don’t understand this. If we are looking at something 100K light years away.. we are seeing it 100K light years ago. If someone was observing earth from a million light years away.. they couldn’t see us now in the present if they were looking right at us right now. They would see earth right now as it was a million light years ago. Great job on your comment. 😊

[@Serovious]

We’ve had science for about 500 years, and technology keeps accelerating. This is such an unbelievably small amount of time compared to the scale of the universe. Imagine a civilization that’s had a million years to advance their technology. It’d be completely unfathomable to us. Our equipment wouldn’t be able to detect a single trace of their technology because we just wouldn’t be on the same level.

[@mrrightfromthemonos]

You are maybe right and wrong. Science isn't really a thing. Scientific approach / method is. And we've had that way longer than 500 years.

[@Serovious]

@@mrrightfromthemonos I’m referring mostly to modern science which started with I believe Galileo

[@MartinDowie-ge7vw]

Your so right!! It's bit like giving your smart phone to the ppl bk in the year 1542 they'd think it's magic!! Then they would kill you cause think your some sort of witch

[@aymerich8074]

Not only we wouldn't be able to detect their technology or if it's detectable would look like a natural event rather than a doing of an advanced civilization reaching to the point of being perceived by many as some kind of magic. Also their physical body could be so advanced that they couldn't be perceived in the 3rd dimensional world but in dimensions even higher than the 4th dimension. They would be so evolved that their needs wouldn't revolve around satisfaction but constant self-actualization through thought-energy manipulation. The exact definition of what a god would be.

[@SparrowEmpire]

We’ve had science for 500 years? We couldn’t build the pyramids right now.

[@Mediocre_JT]

Man... Lex has the perfect voice and tone to help you fall asleep or immerse yourself in the conversation.

[@rph8704]

I listen before bedtime because he makes me sleepy

[@robertmajewski4486]

Joe Rogan is better ?

[@JROtoons]

As an 👽 that's lived here for 40 years, I have to say, y'all are scary. 👍

[@miyamotoyamazaki1760]

I feel the same.. let's go back home

[@joshbutler822]

Same. Can't wait until my contract is up. We came to help but my unit is beyond demoralized and wants to go home.

[@miyamotoyamazaki1760]

@@joshbutler822 maybe we should just take over this planet... ya know.. fuck em. It's a nice place without the war monkeys

[@kannanbhadran7114]

Get ready folks , pickup is scheduled.🛸

[@oneman5753]

I don't blame ya. My family here is SUPER hard headed. 😪

[@redcommando1]

I think I’ll Grabby myself a cold beer and watch the whole podcast.

[@LaBbyDelPressure]

Same but a nice spliff!!

[@niconicoo5661]

Youl need more then 1 beer

[@johnmatonne7834]

I feel fortunate that we have a President like Joe Biden. Where would we be without him? Answer: Sucessful

[@iain2053]

This was extremely fascinating and completely mind boggling.

[@graydon78]

I know I had no idea the average star lives for trillions of years like wtf. Soooo much time for life to evolve over and over again.

[@jonsnow-targaryen2071]

@@graydon78 but isn’t the average star smaller and more likely to have solar flares? And more likely to tidally lock its planet?

[@enricopallazzo3244]

I found it to be extremely mind boggling, and completely fascinating.

[@pnut3844able]

He's talking out of his ass though

[@jackg2630]

@@graydon78stars do not live for trillions of years. They live billions of years- the universe is 13.8 billion years.

[@sinjinadams2862]

This was one of the most interesting things I've ever heard! I think about this stuff all the time and this idea had never crossed my mind! Fascinating guest! I'm glad you had him on. This is why I love this channel!

[@adamparker4580]

Can you explain what was said in Layman’s terms? I’m a bit lost.

[@sinjinadams2862]

@Adam Parker HaHa! Actually I don't think so 😊😊. I barely understood it myself. The part that resonated with me was that the Universe could be full of advanced civilizations that are expanding out into the Universe at near the speed of light. We won't be aware of them until we finally see evidence of them coming our way which would then take maybe millions of years until they finally arrived. As a civilization, we would just be sitting here evolving and advancing ourselves until they finally arrived millions of years or more into the future to finally greet us. Hopefully peacefully!

[@jackg2630]

@@sinjinadams2862but dude the Fermi paradox essentially disproves that civilizations are common. If they were common - due to the time scales - they would spread their signature to the entire universe, and would be visible (most likely as the laws of physics seem to be fundamental character is of the universe). The more likely and accepted take is that life is incredibly rare and intelligent life is even rarer - a great way to think about it is like this - life arose after about 4 billion years on earth - but let’s say that is on the fortunate side - maybe the average time it takes complex life to emerge is double or even triple that - well now you’re approaching the age of the actual universe - so what are the odds that you’re planet is in the Goldie locks zone, and has had stable conditions for billions of years. The answer is it’s incredibly rare. This does not mean that other civilizations don’t exist, it just puts into perspective the sheer luck you need for literally billions of years to even have a tiny chance of life emerging. Think about the earth - we managed to be in the knot spot in the entire solar system that has the correct temps - we just happen to have Jupiter blocking all of the debris from the asteroid belt - we have an atmosphere that absorbs cosmic radiation, - if any of those things were slightly different - we would never have had a chance.

[@nickg304]

I never before gave credence to us being early to the universal game. This lays out some interesting questions to counter that. Really loved the talk. Keep up the great work!

[@miniverse2002]

Condensing the Universe into a 12 month calendar puts our appearance at 30 seconds to midnight on Dec 31st. Seems late to be sure but someone did the calculation and condensed the expected timeframe of how long life could exist in the universe and figured out that we are roughly 7 seconds into Jan 1st. We really would be among the early generations of life in the universe.

[@jp-is1is]

How’d you get to December 31st?

[@davidschulte898]

It's impossible to come to these conclusions when there is so much unknown. Like solving a math equation when you only have 1/10 of the problem.

[@SG-OO7]

Aka "pulling numbers out of our asses"

[@ocianek]

Exaclty, this guy is making a lot of assumptions and reaching fantasy conclusions with no actuall evidence to support it.

[@SuitedPup]

Correct. Given the assumptions, this is an awesome and intriguing model. But there is truly so much we know we don’t know and probably more we don’t know we don’t know. Many worlds, reverse causality, superhuman intelligence, simulated realities, unknown unknowns, etc etc. All of these things and more could completely negate all of this

[@bobinthewest8559]

This carries less weight than two stoners discussing whether or not a molecule in your fingernail could be an entire universe.

[@robintucker8460]

Try 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[@MB-nl2uo]

Lex "I just need to be generating some offspring quickly" Fridman

[@sergiorodriguez8976]

Man just thinking what is happening and what could happen somewhere out there gives me chills

[@Michael-pe5gh]

Not sure why so many people think its weird we don't see any aliens - why should we / how could we? There is only so much our telescopes can see, we haven't even visited/spread across our solar system not to mention surrounding starts. I don't think we are in position to say much about this except that the subject is fun and its fun to speculate wildly. Even a scenario, when faster then light travel is possible, I don't see how we could say nobody is out there, even talking about our own galaxy the Milky way. There could be many civilizations in our own galaxy spanning across even hundreds of light years and I think we still wouldn't know.. necessarily. Sorry, just don't think having Hubble, JWST and other technology we use to observe our pocket of the Universe is enough for us to say anything convincing at this stage.

[@mugzy07]

Maybe they can see us but we’re just irrelevant, when was the last time you spoke to an ant? Haha

[@graydon78]

What do you mean we don’t see aliens? You mean YOU don’t see them? What about over 100 witnesses in Ariel Zimbabwe in the 90’s that saw aliens exit a craft? Or Rendalsham forest encounter? Or myself with 6 friends and my dad who sat two grey orbs hovering above the ocean on a fishing trip off the west coast of Canada in the 80’s? Many people have seen things not of this world. The universe is teeming with life, and some of it has found us.

[@plane_guy6051]

Oh I think there's been lots of aliens who've come here and continue to do so. Some people don't believe that but anyone who's seen them knows it's true and there's been a LOT of skeptics who have had their minds changed for them! I know of a man, a very reputable retired police officer who watched one for 2 hrs up close and there was a group of witnesses with him and there's lot's of cases like that and the people are on video etc. so they're very real encounters and are well documented. Whether these aliens are from other galaxies or 'just' our own is anyone's guess. I know that saying 'our own' is ridiculous since this galaxy is so massive, but 'our' galaxy has at least a billion stars in it so yeah, probably teeming with life. I like this description of 'where we live': "If the center of the Milky Way were a city, we would be living in suburbia, about 25,000 to 30,000 light-years from the city center. Life in the outskirts is good, we find ourselves nestled in one of the smaller neighborhoods, the Orion-Cygnus Arm, sandwiched between larger Perseus and Carina-Sagittarius arms. If we were to travel inwards towards the city center we would find the Scutum-Centaurus and Norma arms. " Just as Earth orbits the sun, the solar system orbits the center of the Milky Way. Despite hurtling through space at speeds of around 515,000 mph, it still takes our solar system approximately 250 million years to complete a single revolution. The last time our planet was in this position, dinosaurs were just emerging and mammals were yet to evolve."

[@012345678940975]

95% of the ocean floor is an unknown. We haven't even fully explored our own world, forget the solar system. It's our hubris that deludes us into thinking an advanced, interstellar civilization would even care about interacting with us.

[@granthoover9045]

@@Synthwalk I fully agree. I think it’s WAY more likely they would go “inward”. Why would they use resources making massive structures? They could develop computers that are remarkably powerful and remarkably efficient and live any existence they want. Why would that necessitate a massive cosmic structure? They could quietly collect resources and keep their footprint incredibly small. Potentially invisible to anyone looking on. After they explored their cosmic neighborhood they might find it’s not particularly interesting and love their life in whatever reality they choose.

[@traverserred]

This reminds me of a book called Cluster by Piers Anthony. There were Alien spheres of influence, but in the book the further out from the center of the sphere were more primitive because of the cost of expansion. The book was about the civilizations spheres of the Milky Way galaxy fighting off the spheres of influence of the Andromeda galaxy from siphon off our galaxy’s energy.

[@rrh2918]

Aren't we living proof that life can just "pop up" anywhere in the universe?

[@siegelife54]

We are proof that life did pop up. We are not proof life is necessary anywhere else.

[@Tmorans]

There is no proof of anything. So to say a scientist is more correct than say a religious person betting on god is a bias thought process itself. I believe we are here in this space for a reason, but we will never know that reason. If a baby is born and somehow that baby survives on its own (hypothetically) with no human being before it to put thoughts and ideas into its mind……would it know how it got here? So, all of our theory’s are just guesses at the very best.

[@rrh2918]

@PoO BoOZki Sure, the right conditions for "us".. But what about conditions for" them" what if they don't need oxygen or water? What are the conditions for them to pop up?

[@danf7411]

@@siegelife54 just a little bit further and we will be the center of the universe and designed by an intelligence

[@tamarcusmcconnell3606]

@@rrh2918 exactly I tell people that all the time we only know the conditions and elements for us .. we have no idea how many other ways and other elements life can form from we only know ours it’s too many possibilities we have no idea

[@user-ch2lp9er6p]

Hey Lex, Can you book ET for an interview? It's the 40 year anniversary of his hit movie. 👽🦔

[@j5555785]

Amazing. Flipping love it!!!! I do have a couple of questions. Efficient space travel is truly time travel - what if time is both relative and fixed? If you did travel to a time future or past, are you actually able to interact with matter that isn't there?? Also, why are galaxy shapes organized when they are light years across???

[@keenfire8151]

Imagine if humans were a multi planet / multi solar system species and we were killed off and quarantined to this side of the universe because of our nature.

[@graydon78]

I can get behind that theory! I’ve always felt our origins are way ancient than we know. We totally could’ve been brought here and quarantined because we grew to be a major problem and someone more powerful got the better of us.

[@plane_guy6051]

We're not a very 'old' species. Look at the various cave paintings like Lascaux in France. It's only about 17,000 years which isn't very long at all, yet all the paintings are of animals, so even up to then, all we were thinking of was hunting and eating, and keep in mind, the ice age was ending so it was about 50F degrees colder so everything would have been just about survival. One thing I've always wondered (sort of jokingly), is if we descended from bad aliens that were sent here (as you were thinking too), like how England sent their riff-raff to Australia, but these ones ended up boffing monkeys and created humans, lol. But seriously, I think we're just a type of ape thing. There's been lots of research done on this and our DNA is so closely linked to apes and chimps that it would be arrogant to think otherwise. Like I said, only 17,000 years ago we were taking dumps in the back of caves and saying 'Oooga-booga'.

[@keenfire8151]

@@plane_guy6051 All it would take is a 1 generation wipe out to reset all of our tech. After a few generations all the old tech would be gone and the survivors are back to basics. If we were to get slapped with a massive rock that reset life, the children of the survivors would be making cave art. We could be on our 12th iteration of our current society and we wouldn't know.

[@demonicdude5958]

Stop playing halo!

[@joeyp373]

@@plane_guy6051 that whole argument of “we share same dna with apes” is kind of dumb because guess what else DNA matched us almost half of our entire gene make up ? Bananas my friend so would you say that banana has derived from us because it shares more than half of dna ?

[@sulfereyes666]

What if we are a part of a "seeding" program, and more or less "they" are just waiting for us to grow up enough to be able to speak to them?

[@troycassidy6177]

Or they seeded us to a specific time frame so their AI can travel space and communicate with our AI. If we could seed life that evolves from protista to humans in a billion years we could move straight into a fully furnished planet.

[@SPEAKERDWELLER03]

I agree

[@mbradea]

Perhaps we are already part of the “sphere”

[@NadimAJ]

Well. This discussion done wonders for my IBS.

[@yvonnehyatt8353]

Thanks Lex, I know it’s not easy to do these interviews but, it is needed . Innovation nations now need to for focus problem solving skills. It is possible-Mel Gil -says.

[@youtubeconnollyfamily]

Hard to believe there is no life out there when EARTH is pretty much the size of a speck of sand compared to the universe and there are more galaxies out there than specs of sand on earth lol

[@erichvonmolder9310]

His hypothesis discounts the possibility of the spiritual realm, other dimensions and the mindset of a billion year civilization (which we can't know). You may stop expanding because it is irrelevant, which also include offshoot civilizations.

[@lukesball1]

Spirtual realm? I don't think any hypothesis should count the possibility of a "Spiritual Realm."

[@erichvonmolder9310]

@@lukesball1 , why not consider the spiritual realm? Many people, including myself believe in some kind of spiritual realm. There is a lot of unknowns here anyway, so why not include it.

[@wombat2248]

@@erichvonmolder9310 what evidence is there for a spiritual realm ? There well might be other dimensions but we are stuck here in our 3D.

[@erichvonmolder9310]

@@wombat2248 , if you might want to believe in others dimensions, you might as well throw spiritual realms in there as well.

[@buffalotitan6123]

This is all based upon the assumption Aliens don’t have Warp Drive. Which they do. So that throws this theory out of the Window. 🤙🏾 You’re talking about beings that literally have the power to shift and phase inbetween dimensions. The Speed of Light isn’t even a factor when it comes to talking about their Technology.

[@ian_does_cool_things]

lol, this is human posturing. We look out into a universe , assigning human traits and monkey-man, 3D understanding to everything, even those things we have no understanding of.

[@stoobydoobydoo]

Yeah this was the stupidest theory I've ever heard. Honestly if he had said "this is one possiblity" id think "yeah that a pretty cool theory" but he thinks this is the only explanation... So stupid.

[@benroper7290]

I would imagine the intelligent ones would be gathered around neutron stars for the energy kinda like when looking for life deep underwater. Most life at a certain depth would be gathered around the volcanic vents for the energy needed and space compared to the ocean is a little watered down but there you go.

[@LBTennis]

I disagree. I think it wouldn't be necessary for a civilization that advanced. They will be able to tap into the vacuum of space and create all the energy they've ever needed.

[@BGdroopy]

💵💵💵💵

[@michaelcharlesthearchangel]

More like a giant star cluster that also acts as a huge electromagnetic shield

[@kennypowerz1267]

There are no aliens or little green men. All the UFOS 🛸 are military from around the world playing this weird game.

[@kennypowerz1267]

@@jimmydriveway we don't have technology to travel that far outside our solar system. And that technology won't be available in our lifetime . Wouldn't surprise me that there is intelligent lifeforms outside our solar system . Organic matter has already been discovered on Mars so I'm confident there is something out there in the darkness of space.

[@DalexUNCO]

This theory is a huge stretch

[@clancykelly5508]

No it isn't. You're just unable to follow it.

[@ash9x9]

Agree! They’re all talking just hypothetical nonsense tbh ..

[@bobinthewest8559]

It’s just “either/or” speculation… “Either aliens are everywhere… or there won’t BE any aliens for trillions of years.” Yup… he’s really got it nailed down 🙄

[@ash9x9]

@@bobinthewest8559 There are NO aliens - period

[@HeavyMetal45]

Yup, and can’t be proven wrong so he stays in business.

[@Someguy8822]

Would be absolutely naive to think there isn’t life out there considering the universe is seemingly infinitely big..

[@BenMJay]

I’ll do my best MSNBC / CNN impersonation…. Alex C states, without evidence, alien life exists.

[@knyghtkrawlr]

Given the amount of factors that all need to coincide for life to be possible in conjuction with how hostile our universe is, it is very improbable that life exist elsewhere in the universe during our species lifespan.

[@johnrmcclure1]

It is unscientific to assume that there is life out in the universe without evidence. There is (as of yet) zero evidence for life off this planet... scientifically speaking.

[@pooochiemoomoos2150]

there are 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the observable universe

[@pooochiemoomoos2150]

@Coach B.

[@Mr.CreamCheese69]

Your discussions have been mind blowing. I'm sure you have a fair bit to wonder about at night trying to sleep lol.

[@Trionicast]

"-They'd already be everywhere" Nail on the head right there. They are EVERYWHERE!

[@lucassnappys5068]

If I understand this idea right...I think it is more conceptually easier to picture if you pretend that every star has an ability in it's life cycle to grow life within a window of time. And the expansion of that light can represent the "grabby alien," and yes here on earth we can witness the birth of new stars and the death of old stars and see the light from many stars.

[@romanianmoto]

When the dude said 10 million years Lex almost fell out his chair😅

[@mr.anonymousmr.anonymous9856]

Aliens are already here. They have always lived among us.

[@MoominPa]

Why on Earth an alien civilization will appear as a “giant sphere”? How did they come up with this assumption? I am not convinced. You can assume just as well that all advanced civilization decide not to expand at all. The expansion may be a feature only of a very young civilization(like is) Even our own earth empires eventually decided not to expand and essentially went back to live within original borders.

[@liberty-matrix]

When a host has no idea what his guest is saying!

[@projectcontractors]

lol

[@TheJonesMcCoy]

Got a feeling that the whole story is kinda or just guessing considering the current state of cosmology which is in deep crisis.

[@WesleySmith1920]

OK, so this interview is mind-blowing and I love the explanation of why we might possibly not have seen evidence of non-natural phenomena in the universe yet (If they are in fact travelling near the speed of light we wouldn't see them until they were upon us). So here is a rudimentary question. I understand this explanation for those alien spheres/structures moving toward us at the speed of light, but what about those spheres/structures in the universe that would be moving away from us at near the speed of light (I'm assuming such structures would be moving in random directions -- in fact in all directions from their original point of exploration into the universe). Wouldn't we be able to see those moving away or parallel to us, even if they are moving near the speed of light?

[@ianlansdowne8518]

I tell ya what, a friend and I were going up river in a canoe, whilst camping one night, suddenly we heard a strange sound which was a constant humming , as we paddled around a corner , there was no wind the water was flat as no ripples, we saw this round sphere type thing it was bright green in colour floating from one side of the river to the other, no movement on the water, we turned around and got out of there as quickly as possible, have also seen other stuff that i don’t think anyone would know what they were

[@ZUIDOVICIOUS69]

That is mad broo im high rn and this is some mindblowing stuff

[@stringtheory8090]

I absolutely love this podcast

[@scottyjzer3111]

This actually blew my mind as a theory, it actually beautiful scary and so many thing, it makes so such sense . Maybe chasing behind the light of stars is our other worldly friends of the future 🤞🙏

[@Area-jr5zm]

The main variable that is not being considered is that time is not constant across the universe. We already know that time is sped up and or slowed down in some regions in space, and even theoretically reversing is other regions in space. That variable when making estimations about the time it takes to do something can change the true dead line.

[@jamesroof6150]

We're all aliens

[@KommonCents_]

We all evolved from apes bud, aliens don't exist. We're on a flat, sequestered plane with an artificial/projected sun and moon And a water filled firmament above. Wake up bud, bless your heart...

[@geshtu1760]

I'm not sure why it was assumed that slow-expanding aliens would start much earlier (and thus be visible everywhere now) and yet the fast-expanding ones would start much later. Surely if they started at the same time, the fast-expanding aliens would have filled the universe MUCH faster. The only way the logic works is if you have the fast-expanding aliens starting later than the slow-expanding aliens. This didn't make sense to me. If we're going to have the possibility of slow-expanding aliens, why not start them late, and use that late start as the explanation for why our sky is empty now? To answer my own question, and if I understand rightly, the reason why this is a problem is because if there are only slow-expanding alien civilisations then the universe will be mostly empty, and thus we would be incredibly "early". And since it's unlikely that we are that lucky, we assume that the assumption of late+slow aliens is ruled out. Likewise (or conversely) the sky isn't already full, which also rules out early+fast aliens. So the only remaining option is late+fast, which is what he is suggesting is the case. Do I have that right? Now, his optimism that a universe full of aliens fighting over shared resources would in any way resemble a "community" seems pretty unfounded. We know how things go when different species compete over shared resources. Previously the optimism for aliens being friendly is precisely that we don't have any resources they'd need. This theory turns that on its head. We should be concerned if this is true.

[@maxxverstappenn8367]

Yeah this conversation has my mind in a pretzel and I love it. But I’m just confused on a couple of the leaps being made in the logic here. Yes, it was incredibly unlikely for us to have been around so early. But the universe is a pretty big place and I’m sure anomalies like us happen but are incredibly rare. For life to have survived this long and to have progressed this far is a miracle as well. Space can be very violent. So what about the explanation that the reason we haven’t seen any forms of life is the fact that there are so few planets with life as advanced as us out there in the universe that none have progressed in their development far enough to make any sort of impact on the universe that we could observe. Or the explanation that life itself is self destructive and difficult to sustain and all that is out there are dead civilizations. Isn’t that a theory that’s out there? That the universe is littered with dead civilization and no life has progressed to the point where they could travel beyond their world?

[@xyhmo]

The model assumes that the universe will be filled up with aliens relatively soon (cosmic time), because it's the only reasonable explanation for why we are so early. For slow aliens to achieve that, they must start earlier, which would also give light enough time to reach us. We would see them, and we don't. Fast aliens would explain both our earlyness and why we can't see any aliens. (However, these fast aliens aren't particularly late - even if later than those hyothetical slow ones - just like we aren't. We're all very early in terms of the lifespan of the universe, but with this model that's not improbable but inevitable. Either you're early or don't arrive at all because it will be too late, the universe will be full.

[@danielbalboa4537]

Great interview Lex

[@ThePshull]

Lex, great job slowing it down and unpacking it.

[@clancykelly5508]

Really? But it was clear as the guy spoke. Didn't need an unpacking.

[@themodernlyceum]

Heres my 3 element model: Time (13.8B) Space (enormity) Uniformity (same atom dispersion on avg) We started after 4B. Obviously theres tons of life out there.

[@tabj2615]

Exactly, to me, it seems something so tangible that it needs no arguing. I bet there’s hundreds of thousands of different civilizations throughout the universe. We’ve never got out of the solar system and still, we assume aliens and spaceships are still somewhat a work of fiction, though......... the invisible man? With angels, that created everything and chose earth to put his son on and kill him for our sins... now that... absolutely logical. Lol dude, we just got out of the caves I guess

[@Enimo17]

@@tabj2615 correct. They want to make us instead believe in human made religions.....

[@richarddejesus415]

I saw two spheres glowing orange coming in and out of the clouds then they started floating together and one flew into the sky later I took a screen shot and saw a third that I couldn't see it was amazing 😮

[@graydon78]

I believe you. I saw a fleet of 46 spheres around 30ft wide each about a half a km away one by one exit the ocean on a fishing trip in the pacific. Changed my life and view of the universe.

[@plane_guy6051]

@@graydon78 WOW, that must have been an intense experience because that's not swamp gas or weather balloons or all the other BS they tell people they're seeing. But that's neat man, you're lucky. A police officer in Canada and some other witnesses all saw a UFO up close in Newfoundland in 1978 and he did an interview on TV at the time (which is on KZbin: see below), but someone contacted him in 2020 and did a followup interview which is great. The officers name is Jim Blackwood and he's retired now but he's very cool and level-headed and wasn't freaked out by it or anything and in fact he said if he'd had a boat he would have gone right up to it, which would have been dangerous, but it shows what kind of guy he is. To listen to the 2020 interview, search KZbin for "The 1978 Clarenville UFO Sighting" and it's the first video at the top, and that's Jim in the picture standing on the right in his uniform and that film crew pictured is from the 1978 interview. To watch the original '78 interview, do a search for: "RCMP Officer Interview - UFO Sighting 1978" Yep, we're not alone! lol

[@gangsterwarriorx9393]

Tesla satellites. Coordination testing. Satellite net around planet.

[@danielazza3952]

@@graydon78 lies

[@danielwerner9543]

This is the first time I have seen Lex get shaken. He literally takes a big gulp around the 5:15 mark. Pretty interesting discussion and a lot to think about going forward

[@michaelknight8587]

Very insightful.

[@Jonas101]

I feel you Lex, i also want to see other life in this universe. The math isn't working out for that possibility in our decade.

[@graydon78]

Lots of people have seen life from other worlds. They just don’t have documented proof.

[@SuperYtc1]

@@graydon78 Yes and I've seen a flying spaghetti monster in the sky. I just don't have proof.

[@SuperYtc1]

@@graydon78 In a planet with BILLIONS of cameras on phones that in people's pockets, not ONE person managed to document it.

[@brians3948]

The fact that Lex can make sense of and converse with every idea and guest on his podcast is quite fascinating. And 3rd rock?

[@jackfox5738]

I got to be honest with you it's not like they're talking at a high-level. Everything they are saying they are using the words and Concepts that any middle schooler would have an easy time understanding😂😂😂😂😂

[@casimirgythe2181]

This is s great explanation of the early game of Stellaris or Eve Online.

[@EastwardTraveller]

Fascinating would be if civilizations were outwardly expanding, fast, but also minimally grabby. Potential for future cooperation with other civilizations would be far greater then.

[@romanhuerta3365]

I mean it makes total sense. It’s almost out of vanity that we believe we are the only ones in this universe! The idea of there being nothing out there should be considered a primitive thought.

[@citizenjournalist2401]

More like arrogance.

[@OUTDOORS55]

So where are the aliens?

[@panzrok8701]

@@OUTDOORS55 Probably billions of galaxies away.

[@gavo007]

We’re just perceiving on a different wavelength. They’re all around us! We’re like children in a dark tent. They’re letting us find our way.

[@nkyryry]

I think they do quite a bit of fucking with us. We all know now the games they play with our military. If we’re children in a dark tent. Some of these species are adults outside pretending to be bears.

[@gavo007]

@@joseph7105 I was a materialist atheist until I tried DMT… now I’m a materialist who believes he’s experienced a parallel reality akin to a spirit realm just beyond our current physics. The experience satiated 3 decades of existential nihilism allowing me to continue my quest for truth in happiness rather than dread.

[@gavo007]

@@nkyryry Agreed. Self contained agents of complexity battling entropy, riding the same waveforms as ourselves will propogate where amicable to their survival. The constructs of our moral or ethical fabric only resonate where they interact… Bears where Bears survive.

[@zootychicken]

Always had this theory in my head but never could explain it. Thannks to this video it confirms my theory

[@kevinharrell9073]

How do we know they aren't here already, this guy's just having fun

[@rootyroot]

The whole argument relys on us needing galaxies/stars for energy - in millions of years our whole idea of "energy" may have changed

[@ArturoGarzaRivera]

Right

[@je25ff]

I could literally listen to a discussion on this topic with these two for 12 hours straight.

[@davidcopson5800]

I could listen for 12 hours gay.

[@mchevre]

Just so happens an acid trip lasts 12 hours so…

[@BillyTheKidOfficialYT]

@@davidcopson5800 you could be listening to this for 12 hours while being gay?

[@clancykelly5508]

The fact that you could listen isn't shocking, so you wouldn't put the word literally in front of the word listen. The fact that you could do it for 12 hours straight is what you're proposing as shocking, so you would put the word literally in front of 12. You're welcome.

[@je25ff]

@@clancykelly5508 And I thought I was a pedantic. You win, Clancy :)

[@johnadams9193]

my brain went from going to the speed of light right past ludicrous speed and right into plaid

[@abobegar]

"Expanding at a constant speed" how that possibly works with the universe expanding with acceleration...- we might never see an expanding at a constant speed bubble if that i s too slow and slower than universe expantion.. or am I wrong?

[@123Coffs]

Interesting model but I find it hard to believe that any civilization would ever expand at a speed close to the speed of light. We have essentially expanded at zero mph over the last million years. Even with advanced technology, we wouldn’t even expand out anywhere close to 1mph. It takes years to even expand out to one additional planet and build something on it.

[@caseycamachoperez7774]

I’m sure a species 1 billion years more advanced than us could figure it out

[@123Coffs]

@@caseycamachoperez7774 Doubtful. They may surely figure out how to travel that fast (Near the speed of light), but not to expand as a civilization that fast. Travel speed and civilization expansion speed are two completely different ends of the spectrum! To expand at near the speed of light, they would not only have to be traveling at near the speed of light, but also building structures etc as they grow and all while still continuously traveling at near the speed of light....

[@CookingwithYarda]

I think that universe is full of life !!

[@ohmbasa]

Isn't the Dark Forest Theory just as probable? I haven't seen the entire interview so I'm not sure if he addresses that. Either way, for all we know the entire observable universe could just be an artifact that doesn't even exist anymore...

[@Mattz1995]

I think that is a fact based on the stuff we all know, speed of light, yada yada, we're looking at images in time.

[@adamnevil6525]

So, how much wood did the woodchuck actually chuck?

[@futurez12]

I think I'd almost prefer that we were alone. Can you imagine how weird that would be: An infinite universe where it's just us! The implications would be enormous; we'd be so incredibly precious. I'm honestly more interested in understanding why, how, and where than whether it's just us or not. I mean, what's it all about? What is the universe? It's almost too weird/scary to think about.

[@Razmatazuk]

The universe is you. Ww literally are the universe

[@alexmonza2823]

The universe is about nothing. That's the weirdest part. It exist for no reason, life exists for no reason. And it either emerged out of nowhere or there was no beginning of time at all. These two possibilities are equally terrifying. And we are just in space. An absurdity.

[@meninblack3585]

An infinite universe would contain infinite lifeforms, everything imaginable would exist. Unless its just an infinite void which would make no sense and has many paradoxes. Dont ever comment without understand what an infinite universe or multiverse would mean, in an infinite universe not only are we not alone but there would be infinitely populated lifeforms

[@meninblack3585]

@@alexmonza2823 3 possibilities either god created it, or it popped out from literally nothing or it always existed infinitly old, all 3 seem just as impossible and supernatural and magical as the other yet the solution is one of them. This hurts my head, whichever one it is is msytical and incomprehensible in its own right. Scary stuff.

[@alexmonza2823]

@@meninblack3585 yea, sorry, i forgot about god

[@Idontbelievethehype2]

The universe isn't going to fill up because we know it's expanding at an increasing rate...The sphere in the model isn't expanding at all. The model is crap.

[@justinbyrge8997]

I like the grabby alien model. However if I may offer a critique. The model assumes a finite sphere representing the universe. But that model doesn't reflect the universe we live in because the one we live in is expanding. Therefore, I am skeptical of anything this model predicts. Do you have a model in which the expansion of the universe is taken into account? Why or why not?

[@DataCartel]

Brings a whole new insight to the often said phrase, "life is short".

[@kfactor09]

Honestly what this old dude is basically saying is: if they're there, they're there and if they aren't, they aren't?

[@LoLsaladz]

It's possible there are universes out there, we can't see them since our telescopes are looking back in time technically

[@joemudda3723]

Facts

[@triplet4547]

Weird

[@nkyryry]

That’s his point. The reason we can’t see evidence of alien life is because we’re never seeing the current universe. Always the past. If they’re expanding slow, eventually we’ll see that light produced. If they’re expanding as fast as the light they produce, we won’t see them until they’re here.

[@meninblack3585]

Also the principle of fecundity asserts every imaginable thing exists out there, and including universes with there own unique laws of physics and features and concepts, aliens from other universes would be beyond alien, they wouldnt be called extraterrestrial but Extra-Universal. They may not even be based on chemistry, particles, etc but something wholly incomprehensible and different.

[@sambekhtyari3372]

One of my favourite episodes for sure. Such a fascinating topic

[@packfan8285]

It feels as though ancient people had a weird understanding of the cosmos. It feels like maybe people did live hundreds or thousands of years. That maybe as the universe expands gravity effects time differently. Maybe the universe was more compact and time acted differently. Maybe as the universe appears to be expanding faster and faster than ever expected or can be measured time changes. Maybe travel to planets by an earlier more advanced civilization was easier because everything was closer. It does seems weird to simply explain some of the level of observation of the stars by ancient people by saying they had less light pollution and could see the stars better.

[@mrnvisserr]

They dont come within the speed of light. They travel within a gravity field which basically exceeds the speed of light

[@royalecrafts6252]

Yes, travel at the speed of light is slow within an intergalactic spacetime mainframe, you need to cheat your way to do it faster, spacetime manipulation or gravity manipulation

[@maxxverstappenn8367]

Yeah this conversation has my mind in a pretzel and I love it. But I’m just confused on a couple of the leaps being made in the logic here. Yes, it was incredibly unlikely for us to have been around so early. But the universe is a pretty big place and I’m sure anomalies like us happen but are incredibly rare. For life to have survived this long and to have progressed this far is a miracle as well. Space can be very violent. So what about the explanation that the reason we haven’t seen any forms of life is the fact that there are so few planets with life as advanced as us out there in the universe that none have progressed in their development far enough to make any sort of impact on the universe that we could observe. Or the explanation that life itself is self destructive and difficult to sustain and all that is out there are dead civilizations. Isn’t that a theory that’s out there? That the universe is littered with dead civilizations and no life has progressed to the point where they could travel beyond their world?

[@maxxverstappenn8367]

Why are we assuming that life has the capability to progress as far as expanding into the universe? What if we are as advanced as it gets?

[@nenirouvelliv]

Yeah, the hypothesis rests on a ton of assumptions, the statistical models might be correct but the underlying logic is on shaky grounds.

[@controlcomputer.4392]

The assumption, I think, is that within the model, if we were not early, then we would already have become a component of another galactic (or intergalactic) civilization, perhaps a robot civilization or imperialistic AI civilization.

[@joshbutler822]

@@maxxverstappenn8367 Then that is sad. And pointless.

[@maxxverstappenn8367]

@@joshbutler822 Yeah I agree. I hope that isn’t the case. And I haven’t listened to the whole pod yet but it seems like this guy is saying that that isn’t even an option.

[@mycommentpwnz]

People always overlook one key fact in models like this: the conditions required for complex life to develop are (very likely) so specific and fragile that it's virtually a statistical impossibility. One of the defining characteristics of the universe is chaos & entropy. There are, literally, an endless amount of potential obstacles to prevent a species from ever exploring the stars.

[@Zoso667evh]

No allowance for different forms of life? If you've ever read the urantia book, which may be bullshit, it claims and describes other forms of life which already exist somewhere

[@MG-yo2nn]

Don’t you have to exceed the speed of light for that expansion model to remain accurate past a certain point?

[@theseal126]

This is the most intelligent and most new thinking approach I have heard about why we cannot see aliens Great video :D

[@WesD85]

I'm so confused and loving it at the same time. My tiny brain can't comprehend a civilization expanding anywhere near the speed of light.

[@yvngxk.]

That image of the astronauts is my album cover.. lol

[@Quark.Lepton]

What you’re talking about is-when the spheres are approaching each other-is a clash and a melding of conscious realities.

[@Husker_]

This was really interesting but there’s a few things I disagree with. He says there’s no way they can travel faster than the speed of light because otherwise they would already be here or that we would have seen them by now. First off, the only reason we can tell other stars have planets is due to the change in light intensity when the planet crosses in front of its star. Do we really expect to be able to see alien spacecraft flying around when we can barely detect planets? Secondly, this guy’s theory immediately discredits every UFO sighting anyone has ever had. Also, how do we know they didn’t simply send out probes to monitor every intelligent civilization while they live quietly and peacefully planet/planets? They have no reason to be here physically. It’s not like we’re going anywhere anytime soon. There’s only a handful of humans that have been to space.

[@ArturoGarzaRivera]

He is not saying we would be able to see flying space craft. His point is that if there was a type 3 civilization out there they would have the power to create/destroy stars and change aspects of the universe itself and we have not seen that yet at all.

[@malartbecomes236]

Okay, I haven't finished the vid yet, just wanna get my thought out. Why does the model have the spheres start expanding at 6 billion years? I thought that there would have to be at least 3 generations of star formation before the stellar nurseries would have nearly enough of the heavier elements necessary for complex chemistry and life. And that's to say nothing of how long it would have taken for amino acids to have become as ubiquitous as they are now. Big fan, Lex. Okay I'm done ruminating 😂

[@julianmarroquin4721]

There’s a lot of variables that haven’t been taken into consideration, they only look at the facts that help their view look stronger, even with a third generation star, the chances for the solar system to form a planet to handle life, are almost mathematically impossible, the Drake equation is just a guess, not bad one, but still a guess, even if you add the possibility of life starting off silicon based(mind you it’s only theoretical) the chance is still near zero, if I’d have to decide wether we are the only example of complex carbon compounds being able to self replicate and gather a conscious, or wether the chance allows for it to be more common, I’d chose the lone mans path, plus add the fact that even if life forms else where in this space we call everything, the chances of it becoming multicellular are low, not terribly low, but there’s just a higher chance life will stop at a algae or moss form, calm equal, then from multicellular to human level conscious? Just keep in mind out of the estimated 8.3 million species tracked, not counting the ones forever forgotten, and the 4.28 billion years it took to get us humans, we are the only species to reach this mark accomplishment in thought Just wanted to reply with the fact that this guy might have spent several years in his studies, he couldn’t go out all the way and at least try to look at it a little bit deeper

[@julianmarroquin4721]

Instead of going out here in mass media and shoving this misinformation to gullible young kids and people, that are told something cool and stay close minded for the next 20 years, he should go write a sci-fi novel, if you can’t bring all the facts, don’t write nonfiction

[@bar4380]

I agree with u Lucian, can you tell me whats your theory of all this life about? What do you think going on, its all on abiogenesis super luck process?

[@julianmarroquin4721]

@@bar4380 we will never find out why existence is existing, wether there is a god or not, I don’t think that matters, the process that we can observe are there, happening without reason, happening without being asked to, it confuses me less and less every night the more I think about it, why fear, stress, depress, over the fact that there is need to put meaning into existence, why does there have to be a reason for everything to be, sorry I’m not purposely trying to sound dreadful, it’s just that the facts of this universe, this cosmos aren’t meant to pertain to comfort human worry, but back to your question, life. Life in our definition, in its most basic form, is a compound, or group of molecules, that can go through several different changes to create more of which said compounds. Is there a need for these compounds to do so, no, the only law in this universe is that which of entropy, everything trying to reach its lowest state, bringing the death of the universe, a cosmos where the noise of space is even, there will be no matter, for all that matter has been turned into energy, the lowest form of energy, life seems to not follow the rule of entropy, it’s constantly trying to reach a higher state of energy, in my eyes, I see it as the universe trying its best not to die, the basic idea that something is better than nothing, I’ve lost most my need to live, not suicidal but I don’t mind the idea of death, not afraid of it standing in front of me one day, experiencing new and old things, Taste, smells, sounds, artwork, etc, I think is the meaning to live, to be able to witness something, pleasant, or ruid

[@julianmarroquin4721]

@@bar4380 in a mathematical view, life with all these building blocks was planned from the beginning, the fact that atoms can gain protons to become different elements, dictated from the start that life is a possibility, it wasn’t luck for we can see it happened, on this earth, it was 100% promised as we see now, whether its the same case out there, in cosmos, you and I will never know

[@falklumo]

Oh boy, so few comments here grab the beauty of this new model. It is actually bringing new insight into a decades old question.

[@bruno84]

This is waaaaaay over my head!

[@jpslayermayor9293]

We live in a period of artificially slowed evolution - when you consider that humans have not progressed markedly since 1969 in terms of propensity and ability to explore our solar system, let alone our galaxy

[@Razmatazuk]

Exactly. The elephant in the room that nobody questions.

[@SAC_-bq4vu]

This is literally what ive been thinking for some time. im glad you put it into words.

[@mariomiceli9663]

And we're still dependant on century old tech. Greed has greatly damaged our whole species...no one notices though.

[@zeMasterRuseman]

That's because the moon landing was faked.

[@HigherPlanes]

Is it just me or is this theory full of assumptions?

[@sebastiaanvanwater]

Indeed. "No evidence of aliens... is evidence of aliens." Dude, come on.

[@kubakos_]

What about the acceleration of the expansion of the universe, and the growing space between galaxies?? You'd have to travel faster than the speed of light, wouldn't you?

[@manfredullrich483]

Only among galaxies that are not gravitational bounded, within these clusters the expansion does not matter, as it only occurs between the clusters.

[@libertyischaos]

An advanced life system may be able to manipulate time. If so, fast or slow wouldn't matter.

[@lucask3]

Time is an illusion. We can't manipulate something that does not exist. Time only lives inside our brains and perception, and in order to bend Space (like a wormhole) one has to able to travel at the speed of light and that is impossible. Theoretically nothing happens at the speed of light. Neither cause, nor effect. Complete stillness.

[@ital1anstallion4]

This is fish tank thinking logic/ model. Lex even eludes to that saying "all the data we have to base on this is human nature."

[@ZlGZ4G]

Am I alone, or is this guy really bad at explaining this theory?

[@paulpickering2302]

You are not alone 😅

[@bobinthewest8559]

I’m not even quite sure what he’s TRYING to say. “We’re early…” Actually, we showed up more than 8 billion years after the beginning. “Either the universe is already full, or there won’t be ANYONE for trillions of years.” That’s pure conjecture/speculation. A new civilization could be popping up every million years or whatever. “We can’t see them because they’re expanding at the speed of light.” Even if you have faster than light travel… you can’t EXPAND faster than light. Can they make all those changes, build megastructures, etc, while they’re zipping along faster than light without slowing down? I don’t know who this guy is… but I don’t think he’s as smart as he thinks he is.

[@gonzogeier]

It sounds like he has a very good explanation for a wrong theory. We as human beings maybe will never be able to get to the next star. Unless we find new laws of nature!

[@goodleshoes]

.... It's because lex is asking questions in a stupid way.

[@cajones9330]

im getting tired of all these guys talking about this. I feel like were missing the point

[@Robert-hm1ob]

It's much to hard to follow for me personally, with all known factors to support complex life certains rules laws need to be broken to achieve a conclusion but it's an assumption. Food for thought though😃😄

[@philadelphiaslim4144]

It just goes to show, on the micro and macro universal scale the same rules govern it. The same things happen all over although different still the same energy, takes the same path, governed by same forces of nature. The same patterns repeat so why wouldn't they be doing the same stuff just more advanced. You can visualize what we'd be doing if we were that smart. So see, it's inside you, we're just a different point in the cosmic timeline. Like he said the expansion is slow, so what if certain knowledge just isn't unlocked until u get to a certain point just like a video game until we reach that point in space then we unlock a new knowledge, a new wave a new vibration a new frequency or specific details in depth about those things and break it down even more. Like how there's a high and low frequency not just one frequency it's duality mixed.