Self-Building Radio Telescope On The Far Side of The Moon [NIAC 2023]

[@alancase1745]

I loved the strong and optimistic way this interview concluded. Things do feel different than they did 20 years ago! There is much to look forward to.

[@willemvandebeek]

hear hear

[@studentjohn]

If it goes ahead this sets a lot of precedents - technically it's a mining operation, it'll be the first construction project on the Moon, and it'll open up a new ear on the universe. Manufacturing solar arrays en-mass, all from regolith.... and for much less than something like JWST. Personally I am very excited about this!

[@mihan2d]

I presume that by then we have to have already a permanent presence on the Moon because otherwise that's too much machinery and (literally) moving parts to expect to operate flawlessly on its own and sending an assist mission from Earth should something almost inevitably break would cost billions, while on the other hand if there's a lunar base by this point then sending a spacecraft from there would be nearly trivial due to how shallow the Moon's gravity well is

[@studentjohn]

@@mihan2d I'll have to read up on the details of the phase 1 study, but the impression I get is that this is all designed to be fault tolerant & multiply redundant rather than repairable, or at most repairable using automated stuff like rover that can be controlled from Earth. More a 'simple brute force collecting area with lots of redundancy' than 'clever and sensitive electronics' idea, I assume. No moving parts, lots of ultra basic antenna (basically just strips of foil), lots of low quality mass produced solar arrays, all operating on their own in terms of power. I guess that so many independently operating components adds up to a lot of redundancy and no tears shed if some fail. The bits that have to work are the rovers that deposit the foil antenna on the surface and etc. So it depends how much they cost - but I imagine that if they have an unfixable breakdown it'd be a lot cheaper to send a new one than a servicing mission. But i haven't done the reading yet, I'm just guessing.

[@ticthak]

@@studentjohn I thought there was some reference to optimized rover design for weight bringing it down to a kilo or two just recently- I don't know if it was for this type of manufacturing task, or as a lab- just speaking out my ass about the relevant process engineering, I think the different mission packages aren't too dissimilar in size and weight, but possibly it's going to make more sense to have an autonomous raw-material hod separate from the "factory" rover (one hod could service multiple factories, possibilities for path/process optimizations, single/multiple device failure trade-off considerations, etc.)-maybe an entire fleet of differing-use rovers is smart. Remember, all you have to do is get the first reconfigurable miner/factory successfully deployed and copy itself a few times, and you've started the whole manufacturing base, and at least for this project, nearly all costs are sunk. ALL of the engineering design I've seen in this is just intoxicating in its potential. As long as there's an OFF switch...

[@richard--s]

When there is heavy industries on the moon, with many satellites and many operations done on the moon, the lunar telescopes will no longer get a free unobstructed view of the universe...

[@jondoc7525]

We will make everything there . Just need to get the materials to do that , and whether is required to do that . We can have people survive there for months and send tons of oxygen etc

[@swiftycortex]

Hey Fraser, your science communication channel is the best on KZbin. Thank you 1:08

[@LG-qz8om]

Long track for Artemis? I'll say. I was working on Orion systems in 2000! For an antenna I'd suggest setting it into a large crater mainly for the reason that as things get busier around the moon, you want the crater rim to block noise from a wider angle. Even production of insitu metal supplies might encourage landing craft which themselves will interfere with the telescope -- unless you atockpile beyond the horizon. No need encouraging unwanted traffic. You'll have lots of O2, which can be stored in large inflatable bags which will have value too. Perhaps best to put it offsite or orbit to let others access without interference. Of course those insitu resources could fund future expansion.

[@LG-qz8om]

As for what got space interesting again, i attribute to Elon & SpaceX because before that even NASA would drag out things to infinity. Now all of a sudden many want to do something in space gets NASA active again.

[@sulljoh1]

What an exciting concept!

[@emilsitka9537]

The far side lunar observatory always seemed like a legitimate reason to go to the moon.

[@richard--s]

To go to the moon, build lunar satellites that will be visible in these big lunar telescopes with much radio traffic too... Wait a moment... The quality of these lunar telescopes will degrade fast this way...

[@blahblahsaurus2458]

There is probably value to such a lunar observatory, but there are some disadvantages compared to space observatories. One is that to land materials and robots on the moon, you have to slow down in order not to crash on the surface. This is a similar amount of energy to leaving the moon's surface. The gravity is small compared to earth's, but it means bringing propellant and engines, which need to be brought up from the earth, increasing cost. The other disadvantage is that there _are_ trace amounts of gas and dust near the moon's surface. They're barely there but it does mean the viewing conditions are worse than what you get in space - so why bother. If you want the moon to block emissions from the earth, the moon's L2 lagrange point may be almost as good. On the other hand when we eventually have significant industry on the moon, there is the advantage that you can build humongous telescopes more cheaply than you could in space, as the discussed in the interview 👍 but that is going to take a few decades. Also, the advantageous viewing conditions that the moon _can_ provide are at the permanently shadowed polar craters we know and love - I think I heard that an infrared telescope could be chilled even colder than James Webb currently is. It's hard to get colder than 7 °K no matter where you are, but maybe in the future a crater would be a better location for a giant JWST than space. 🤷

[@supplychainoperationsresearch]

god damm this is absolutely awesome!

[@hamjudo]

A one way lunar Starship delivery consists of 100 tonnes of payload and 150 tonnes of scrap metal. Most of that scrap metal is in the form of a single uniform alloy of stainless steel. Stainless steel will be useful for making regolith working tools like bulldozer blades, metal working tools like drill bits, and any metal part that needs to be hard like bearings. Aluminum will almost certainly be the first metal produced in bulk on the moon. Stainless steel will be the bulk material of choice before they ramp up aluminum production.

[@MotorJeffries]

I loved this interview, thank you!!

[@paulmichaelfreedman8334]

Found your moon telescope videos! thanks for the reply on the live chat!

[@armandvillemont3441]

Kudos for a powerful start out the door! May you savor the fruits of this world-changing observational initiative, in the best of health and accompanied by a deeply deserved knowledge of your fulfillment! The true and boundless future beckons, thanks in large part to such scientists and engineers as yourselves, reaching forth at the beckoning gates of the Moon - truly a treasured cohort of real-world visionaries!!

[@metatron7405]

Thanks, one step closer to the high frontier! The High Frontier: Human Colonies In Space

[@markhearne1102]

smack bang cool

[@doron.smulian]

Hi Fraser, Dr. Polidan, I have a question. It sounds that the most radio quiet time to do science on the far side on the moon is during the local luner night (no Sun). Will that not require battery arrays in a massive amount? 34:07 Could you heat the reagolith to a large depth to be used as a thermal battery?

[@music100vid]

Good point about the difference in the electronics requirements. Maybe better to build large scale eclectronics that are more robust and easier to make in situ than micro electronics that could be susceptible to the moon's environmental conditions. About not running over the existing arrays - what if an arrray or the power supply needs servicing or replacement? You may need to leave some kind of path through the arrays so a rover can get to any point on them for maintenance access.

[@jimashby43]

Well that was cool. And I think the Dr enjoyed it.

[@virtualmonk2072]

I know the lunar orbiter has some capabilities but would it not make sense to send lidar based mapping satellite's to give you a fully detailed surface map to operate from ? Small sats,you could pack them on the same mission maybe?

[@brucehansensc]

Crazy idea that makes more sense the longer you look at it! Occurs to me there are much easier time constraints on this project than a manned one. If it takes a while, so be it, not having to support humans over a long time so cost doesn't mount.

[@krzysztofpelon5633]

25:57 - And this is how you create Replicators :)

[@ticanwoneas7850]

They could consider building the dipole antennas into the solar panel collection arrays. This may give the antenna a more stable base than the lunar regolith and reduce the area rovers have to travel and also may be able to use the solar panel power grid connections to get the signals to the telescope processor hub.

[@johnaweiss]

Aluminum foil? So the antennas are flat?

[@dl2839]

This lunar array seems like it'd be built a whole lot easier with an astronaut on the moon instead of a fleet of rovers.

[@j.j.waguespack5067]

How would a future Star Link type system affect the radio telescope?

[@ticthak]

Practically not at all unless it's around the Moon.

[@richard--s]

​@@ticthak it will be around the moon when people do more and more on the moon...

[@shaunhall960]

Consider supporting the Planetary Society to help advance space science and exploration? They are doing incredible work for everyone on Earth.

[@legoseanland1760]

How do we retrieve the data? A satellite?

[@uku4171]

I am very skeptical that this will lead anywhere, but if they do succeed, it will change space exploration a lot.

[@CarolineThomasUK]

There are issues with space elevators on the moon,(as mentioned in this video) in that the distance to the equivalent geostationary orbit is 88,000km, but need to consider hill sphere which is about 58,000km.Outside this the earth will interfere with the orbit of objects around the moon, and they will not be stable. Elevator cable might not be able to handle this. Spin launch sytem may work better in moon's vacuum that on earth.

[@alfonsopayra]

question: how does the juice mission spaceship change orbits from jupiter to its moons? how does the math work here?

[@virtualmonk2072]

Awww Farscape,nvmind❤

[@blackhole-q2x]

40:51 hi Fraser this is really interesting topic to me. Could you please (maybe in a question show) consider going into details of how would such vast amount of data (terabytes) be processed? would it be stored in situ? or sent to earth 🌎? I mean there is currently no way to conviniently do that. Would we need a datacenter on the moon or on moon orbit to handle this? How they plan to get that data down to earth or work with it? You can't 3D print hard drive 😀 Love your work 👍 thank you for your continuous effort in reporting on space & science

[@ticthak]

You actually CAN print SSDs. Given they don't HAVE to be nano-scale if you don't care too much about speed, you can actually gain fault tolerance and thus, data integrity.

[@blackhole-q2x]

@@ticthak yeah that would be a way, from what I understood they are thinking about printing simple electric circuits, not sure if printing SSD is doable with that technology. How i see it, they would have to send chips & complicated hardware like data storage from earth. Would be really cool if they would be able to print it tho

[@ticthak]

@@blackhole-q2x you can print junctions, therefore you can print flash NAND. It'll be slow and clunky, but it'll also be radiation-hardened due to scale. Massive parallelism can take care of the speed problem. Obviously, the early devices to assemble the system will have to come from Earth, MUCH more efficient and compact, but more prone to radiation damage. I begin to think quantum defects might cease to be significant failure causes for the circuits they're going to manufacture in situ. Theis is a really revolutionary vista for materials engineering in all sorts of ways.

[@oberonpanopticon]

Probably laser based communication

[@alectrondorfman1057]

So how do they get the data back to earth? The far side of the moon blocks any radio signals and they are there. Will there be a satellite to relay the data?

[@AvyScottandFlower]

I'll be convinced of progress only until I see men on the moon again, and/or a working telescope there

[@thingsandstuffwithinmebrai5938]

Is there a way to apply to be part of the team? Not to be overly forward, but if we feel we have something to offer? Or maybe to take some of the stress off of current members Every list i write is almost identical to yours and for the interviews i write follow ups for how i think they might respond....not always accurate but quite a bit bc we researched it before hand. And the main goal is to get as much info to the listener as possible right

[@thingsandstuffwithinmebrai5938]

But I believe that's doable with our ability to engineer. I think he should have asked "how much of a shift in topography would potentially bother the signal" bc without astronauts physically doing it the excavation would take sooo long imo

[@dmitryshusterman9494]

How will that telescope communicate with earth from the far side?

[@bbartky]

All they need to do is launch a communication satellite that transmit and receive from the lunar Far Side to the Earth. The Chinese did this for their lunar Far Side rover.

[@ItzAllMine360]

If I was a trillionaire this is what I'd spend the lot on.

[@DrPaul65]

Aluminium is reactive once the surface is exposed; it’s stable on Earth as it oxidises immediately. That won’t happen on the Moon as there is no oxygen. Or are they oxidising it as part of the manufacturing process?

[@andytidnits]

Will landing pads be made? I understand the idea is that this work will be performed on the moon.

[@agentdarkboote]

I know you're also concerned about AGI, do you ever feel sad that there's a real chance that we don't get to see these types of missions come to life because they're too far off? Great interview though.

[@-LightningRod-]

it should be Mankinds Mission,... We definitely need another Planet. the Technology is cheaper faster and more imperative than ever before in History. It is also an informed opinion, that if there was liquid on the Moon, it would be arranged into a standing wave. a liquid metal reflecting lens based on a standing wave makes me think that a degree of accuracy might be reached beyond perfection with the very most infinite resolution because of the effect the Moon would have on a liquid.

[@stevencoardvenice]

Yeah I think the exoplanets changed everything. More interest in space now

[@frasercain]

Possibly. I think the rise of SpaceX had a huge impact too.

[@ZionistWorldOrder]

this mans resting face could be improved by placing the camera a bit higher, i couldnt help myself, also the properties of moon regolith made bricks and materials are very exciting. I hope the stuff they come up with is durable and only improves onward.

[@michellearrington4846]

Wow isn't that an idea

[@Catch22-k8d]

Forgive my ignorance, but given the difficulties and cost of building a telescope on the dark side of the moon, why build "only" a radio-telescope? Why not add optical and IR lenses and sensors? It's obviously an ideal place to build a telescope.

[@oberonpanopticon]

Because there’s not really anything that makes the moon a worthwhile location for anything but a radio telescope. The advantages wouldn’t justify the cost. Ground based telescopes have come a long way since Hubble was launched. Also, a radio telescope would be the easiest.

[@PhonicallyPsychotic]

I wonder if they could scavenge previous moon missions (failed and successful) for resources that they need ? Assuming that they are within range of where they are set up

[@cixcell7735]

we discover something during the process of trying to create fusion that causes a catastrophe which results in the fermi paradox

[@lesliehenriques62]

What about building a burial ground on the moon one of my ambition was to be buried on the moon

[@martin09091989]

Not to be overly pessimistic, but wouldn't it be way easier to bring a few rolls of aluminum foil up there instead of refining the metal in situ? Also making you own solar cells on a rover on the moon seams like a challenge in it self! How you even do this? You need at least some sort of substrate like a sheet of foil or something to put your materials on. They definitely won't grow silicon crystals and saw them into wavers up there! 😆

[@oberonpanopticon]

Easier? Maybe Cheaper? No

[@swiftycortex]

Are there areas on the moon with enough aluminum deposits? 11:43

[@lukeskywalker7457]

Yes

[@hamjudo]

Aluminum oxide is one of the most common materials on the lunar surface. It isn't neatly separated, so it isn't pure. They will be approaching the search for suitable deposits from two different directions. One will be based on our current limited set of lunar samples. They will be figuring out chemical extraction techniques that will work with that type of regolith. The other approach is figuring out what kinds of regolith would be easy to work with. Then searching for deposits like one of them. It is a bummer that the recent Japanese moon lander crashed. If it had worked there would be another rover on the moon today.

[@yoredeerleader]

I think they meant to call it Far Point Station.

[@johnvanderpol2]

open source the amplifier design used, and see what the community can comeup with. vacuum tubes will be easy on the moon.

[@philipkeogan3550]

Ok, so lets say they go up and for 1 year they build 25,000 antenna, is there any agreement in place that would stop say the Russian's going up and demolishing them? Edit :- What I mean is that "Another country decides that they are going to mine or do some other project on the dark side of the moon. Now this country has some beef with America, they send up their robot mining rovers and just plow though the antenna "

[@ticthak]

Expense, unless the Russians deployed an similar semi-autonomous system. Where's the ROI?

[@philipkeogan3550]

@@ticthak See Edit

[@ticthak]

@@philipkeogan3550 There are already treaties preventing actual military exchanges in space, this mostly is going to devolve to private-sector projects (of course, with government supports). While this array of arrays is big by terrestrial standards, I would think it would be pretty expensive to accurately locate the traces, and what, again, is the ROI of tearing it up? It's not as though the arrays themselves consume much in the way of resources, and their scrap value would be near zero. They are unlikely to be located only on top of prime resource regolith- the location is selected for optimal viewing within the constraints of terrain, the construction model doesn't require (nice as it would be to have) immediacy to the best mineral deposits, their calcs are based on average mineral distributions. I imagine there will soon be large-scale industrial espionage there, just like on Terra, but that's a whole different game in action and jurispudentially. At the moment, the scientific community would have some serious problems with ANYONE intentionally destroying such a tool, producing data valuable to EVERYONE. I could see some idiotic destruction for its own sake by an inimical party, but that risk exists everywhere, and how effective are existing "agreements" at preventing that wanton damage? They'd have the same force on the moon. The possibility of accidental damage is higher I think, but not much, and there insurance companies can govern, and should.

[@richard--s]

It's fine until humanity lives on the moon too... Then there will be many satellites orbiting the moon, being visible in lunar telescopes. Is it even worth building these short time telescopes? ;-)

[@frasercain]

There's going to be a few communication satellites, but nothing like what we have here on Earth.

[@kennethjessop6073]

Need to have a “Don’t drive here” sign in Chinese.

[@jordanhenshaw]

Why don’t you build a working prototype of the entire system on earth?

[@nononono3421]

We’ll be able to have robots that build this stuff and build robots themselves when we can do it with ease on Earth. Don’t invest in the steam engine train in 100 A.D.

[@johnaweiss]

Just a cellphone on Pluto? I dunno, that seems surprisingly weak. Isn't the goal to hear low-energy radio around Alpha Centauri, and beyond? The aliens might not be sending us giant signals, maybe they're just talking on their cellphones.

[@oberonpanopticon]

I don’t think aliens are the main target with this. It’s more early/distant universe observations.

[@Nealetony]

I hope its 2030's i am not getting any younger.

[@michaelconnaireoates5344]

Half a kilo so 500 grams so what's an ounce a couple grams like 50?

[@jordanhenshaw]

Starship will be on the moon with 150 ton payload capacity long before this thing has a chance of launching.

[@frasercain]

Starship will probably the vehicle that delivers this to the Moon.

[@buffalonewyorker5435]

If this radio telescope gets built and they get a cell phone call from Pluto should they answer?

[@nicholashylton6857]

Let it go to voicemail. Odds are, it's some scam from a call centre operating out of New Delhi.

[@hawkbartril3016]

That's a real freak of choice ain't it, yeo bro

[@slevinshafel9395]

i was think on it. a telescope on the moon. labs and lot of I+D. and people think space dont have jobs? hahahha Even spiin launchers to rich Mars with supplys or to the belt to send some tools to miners belts

[@doncarlodivargas5497]

The aliens we find with that radio telescope are not aware of our existence because our moon are in the way, probably they get pretty startled when we suddenly come visiting

[@dmitryshusterman9494]

The moon does go around the earth. Try to figure out what it means regards your comment. Also, it does not transmit any signals.

[@MHarvey-tp5km]

Out of pure curiosity, was there more support for NASA and lunar exploration with trump or Biden? Repubs or dems... Or does that aspect of politics not matter?

[@sandmehlig]

Good to know that the Lunar regolith has no influence on any signal detection by the lieing antennae Disturbing metal rich soil could create an atmosphere that could act like a cloud of chaff surrounding the Moon - disturbing any signal. I wonder if lobbing a chunk of metal to the surface of the Moon by Starship (it should not have to land) would have less of an "impact".

[@BinaryCloudChaser]

Boring show animations

[@undernetjack]

NASA won't even take pictures of the monuments on Mars to disprove them, the dark side of the moon , anything? Lol. Fantasy. 😂

[@deanc9453]

I hope the interviewee knows about the 101's of making a Wikipedia Article Here is a link to it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Your_first_article