Unreal and Unity aren't Level Editors

An extract from my video, "Why level design is weird, and hard for today's aspiring LDs" - fully video here: • Struggling to practice...
This is part of my Talking About Level Design video series, which I've collected into this playlist: • Talking About Level De...
Twitter: / essell2
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#leveldesign #shorts #gamedev #unreal #unity

[@EchoHeo]

this is why i love source so much

[@elepunto.]

love your in the mood for love poster! first thing that caught my attention

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Cheers - you have good taste :)

[@elepunto.]

@@stevelee_gamedev you too!

[@R-SXX]

Call to arms (or man of war) really kickstarted my environment and level artist career. The editor of those games is soo poweful and I recreated arica harbor, the fps battlefield map, into an rts version and it thought me a ton of how to rework/built sidelines, view strctures and detailing for my other projects. Best thing is, I actually started as a young teenager with spore and the map editor of warcraft 3... Good times. But i dont wanna miss the modern tools :)

[@boostedplayer503]

I 100% agree, i am trying to become a level Designer but apparently i am alone and have no friends or a team so i had to learn how to do blueprints in Unreal and make enough environmental art so that i can achieve what i can do as a Level designer. Apparently it cost me 3 years so far to get a good level of Blueprint coding and modeling, now i am on your channel to get my level designing started xD. I am also going on with my University aswell. Slowly Slowly winning the race hopefully. ❤️

[@stevelee_gamedev]

That sounds like a lot of work if you're doing it all yourself, but I hope it's working out! Good luck - any questions, let me know :)

[@urdadacrypto3044]

Do you have any recommendations for where to start with blueprints? I couldn't find any tutorial that could clear the basics, I have some basic experience with node based workflow in blender geo nodes , but no luck with coding even though I understand few coding terms, I really want to learn blueprints

[@boostedplayer503]

@@urdadacrypto3044 Ryan Laley is good KZbinr who can help with getting started.

[@Calixj23]

You could always just use UE and do Blockouts. You don't have to add all the Mega Scans or any of the detail artwork. What I do is to plat test my ideas, I simply just use the new Modeling Tools in UE, which are very similar to the BSP Brushes in UE4, and simply do Blockouts. You can easily test scaling, pacing, dimensions, etc. Give it a try.

[@ultrawaveyt5582]

I started with minecraft and fortnite making games and levels. I wanted more control and I saw some gamedev videos on KZbin. I watched them and the idea of making levels for games sounded awesome. I decided that I could follow a simple movement tutorial for unreal and make the levels with asset packs. This didn’t work for obvious reasons. A year or two later I returned to the idea of making games after I started following programming tutorials and then Unity tutorials. Now I just love making games. At this point I’m better at programming than I am at level designing lol

[@PsychoticSorcerer666]

I'm a mapper and modder for a number of games I play. As someone who has modded games like Doom 3, adding in custom sounds, models, and textures is a DREAM in Unreal Engine 4. For example games like Quake 3, Doom 3, and Star Wars Battlefront (2004) are stingy on what herz levels and such sound files need to have to work. UE4 accepts anything. And honestly anyone opening up a game engine disappointed there isn't content already there, the sample projects and starter content is useful for reverse engineering so you can figure out how to make your own game, but it's up to you do the rest. The only thing that holds me back from finishing my own game is the occasional snag anytime I try to think outside the box.

[@camiloquintero1434]

Is it advisable or valid to make levels for existing "sample" games provided by those game engines? For example Lyra (UE5)

[@hakametal]

Absolutely. Anything that gives you the tools to CREATE and DESIGN levels with GAMEPLAY is always the best path for level design.

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Hey Camilo - as far as I've seen, sample games tend to be pretty simple and light on mechanics, but sure, if you feel like they're your best options for creating playable levels that show good / creative level design, go for it :)

[@lanchanoinguyen2914]

game engines are just a executable controled by dynamic libraries or script in text.They come with their own editors and why did you say they can't be used for making levels?

[@stevelee_gamedev]

I'm saying they aren't very good for level designers to make fully playable levels for as personal projects, because game engines don't come with an actual, specific, high quality game to make levels for. People are stuck with buying simplistic, mediocre shooter kits etc from the stores, which generally only enable you to make basic, generic levels with placeholder level content. Whereas with the level editors for games like Portal 2, Half Life 2, Left 4 Dead and Counterstrike, you can make genuinely complete, finished, fully playable, richly scripted, impressive levels, using all of the mechanics, content and tools from the real game, that are potentially as good as the levels from the real game. For level designers who want to show that they can do the real work, in genres relevent to these games that have real editors available, it's way better!

[@Kwix]

Great points for sure. But I would also like to add that there are plenty of marketplace assets with game mechanics that can be used for this. Additionally, it is quite valuable to have game engine experience alongside level design experience, when it comes to smaller studios. In terms of introducing people to level design concepts and principals, a level editor is certainly a great start. I started with Halo 3/Reach Forge before moving onto FarCry.

[@adamarzo559]

If you know anybody who is using tools like Hammer in 2023 for their game. You should interview them and ask them why they are using them over the more modern ones because to me to recommend tools like Hammer in 2023, especially with CS 2 around the corner, is absurd.

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Even when CS2 comes out, won’t Source 2 still restrict people to make levels for Half Life Alyx and Counterstrike? It’s not about the tools, it’s about being able to make real, fully playable levels, for games that are relevant to what people to work on. The point is that getting a job as a level designer isn’t just about learning any particular tool or engine - it’s primarily a creative job and not a technical one, and the best thing aspiring level designers can do is make real, fully playable levels, for real games with real mechanics, AI, content and systems. As weird and unfortunate as it might seem, I think using Hammer to make levels for games like HL2, Left4Dead and Portal is still one of the best options for people who want to work on games in similar genres, because it’s basically impossible to make anything real, fully playable, finished and high quality in Unreal or Unity. Most aspiring level designer portfolios that just have videos of generic player controllers running around empty Unreal environments just aren’t very impressive, because they haven’t done most of the real work that level designers do with real gameplay and tools.

[@F0r3v3rT0m0rr0w]

As a solo programmer this is absolutely true. I make systems for my games and then look at the "world" and groan every time in agony at how bare bones it looks.

[@MastermindAtWork]

Do you think it's good for level designers to get an asset pack to work with to build their skills?

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Yeah, sure (I'm assuming you mean gameplay asset packs, to help LDs make playable levels). They're definitely better than nothing, but generally speaking I think they do tend to be very simplistic compared to working with the real AI / content systems / assets of a real, shipped, high-quality commercial game. But they can be enough to make something interesting and substantial enough for a portfolio piece :)

[@Owlandbibisguy]

I have the power

[@Tryste]

What about using primitve 3D blocks for the level and a few Asset store package for the systems (FP or TP controller, inventory, shooting...). Is it very different from using Hammer (I never tried it)?

[@stevelee_gamedev]

In my opinion, nothing you can get from the Unity or Unreal stores compares to being able to make levels in Hammer, using proper level editing tools, making levels using all the game's real art assets, enemies and AI, weapons, gameplay objects, etc :) Not even close, in terms of your ability to make real, fully playable, testable, scripted, finished levels.

[@Tryste]

@@stevelee_gamedev Thank you for your answer. :) I might give a try to Hammer then!

[@belialren]

What would I do if I just like building cities and towns, changing the landscape, etc?

[@stevelee_gamedev]

If you like to build stuff and focus on how things look more than how it plays, then this is more like environment art than level design (as a discipline), and in this case, Unreal or Unity is probably fine / great :)

[@belialren]

@@stevelee_gamedev thanks for the response, I’ll check it out!

[@caseybennett1385]

This is EXACTLY why we have started to watch prior UE “speed level design” videos and laughed our way out before they were halfway done- a scene does not a level make. Much less an actually playable one! 😂

[@CrusaderGabriel]

Man I HATE those videos so much! Been trying so hard to find actual usable level design timelapses and been finding those almost exclusively, like yeah they look pretty for the youtube video and for a screenshot, but have absolute nothing of useful, i even wonder if the geometry could be handled in any real game because they use nanite level of detail assets in unreal 4...

[@user-uq6un4ts7p]

Hey, I just find dying light 2 dev tools could make game map, are you think this is suitable for level design? I have used the unreal and unity, I'm tired at make game mode.I just want to make a map then play.

[@stevelee_gamedev]

I haven’t used the dying light tools so I can’t speak from experience, but I think I’ve heard about making cool stuff with it. If you’re not into making levels for source games with Hammer (Half life 2, Portal 2, Counterstrike, Left 4 Dead, Team Fortress 2), which I always recommend first, then give it a go :)

[@FatProgrammer]

Hey steve, is it a good idea to use FC5 editor (FarCry) ? I'm really bored with too many outdated and ugly uis 😅

[@AhmetIbrahim]

I've seen people include FC5 projects in their portfolios. You could definitely create some interesting levels and execute some professional level design skills in this editor but it's a bit limited compared to other level editors out there (lack of scripting tools, transformation tools, narrative support etc.) I think if you can justify design choices and set out goals to achieve when creating a FC5 level - and then achieve them goals once your level's finished, then it's definitely a viable option to use the FC5 editor!

[@FatProgrammer]

@@AhmetIbrahim thnx ahmet, I'm gonna give a try!

[@AhmetIbrahim]

@@FatProgrammer Cool! 🙌🏻 My recommendation would be to take some time to get used to the editor, look at what assets are available, take a little dive into what tools you have for building missions, maybe look online for some videos/ reading materials for the FC5 editor. There might be a FC5 level editor community which you could join. Then when you fill a bit confident, start thinking about what goals you want to achieve with your levels. What skills do want to showcase and what thoughtful ideas can you include and execute in your design. Ideally, you should have a strong idea of what your level will look and play like before you even start the actual editing and have good reasons why those choices create the best experience. And worst case scenario: if what you make doesn't work out for whatever reason, you'll have the opportunity to learn some valuable lessons! Good luck Eugene 💪🏻

[@FatProgrammer]

@@AhmetIbrahim nice thanks for the valuable advice Ahmet

[@AhmetIbrahim]

@@FatProgrammer Also, would be worth doing some proper documentation. Would 100% recommend keeping a progress log, writing down briefly what you did each day. Good to start getting into those habits early.

[@sypho8339]

For unity you can use probuilder to substitute for a level editor, its really good at making good levels even complex ones

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Probuilder is only a 3D geometry / layouts tool - I'm talking about having proper gameplay assets / mechanics / scripting systems etc for implementing gameplay with, which is a key part of what LDs on single-player games do. Unreal and Unity barely come with any of this stuff (compared to real, finished games with level editors), and the stuff you can get on the store is always basic and hard to make anything good with. In my opinion.

[@Andrium]

But I do it. Full playable game with Unreal Engine.

[@marcobaiocchetti9147]

What could be a good level editor for a third person shooter?

[@stevelee_gamedev]

I basically don’t think there are any, unfortunately! This is part of the big problem I talk about in my video about level design being weird and difficult to practice

[@marcobaiocchetti9147]

@@stevelee_gamedev yea, that's what i thought. Thanks anyway for the answer

[@kodelash]

unreal 3 had an editor

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Not sure what you mean by an editor here (or do you mean Unreal Tournament 3?). I shipped 3 Unreal 3 engine games as a level designer, and it definitely doesn't have a level editor, because it's a game engine, and not a game. Let me know if I'm misunderstanding what you mean here.

[@lovelearn341]

You say level design for the two engines are not well suited. Yes, that's right, it really takes time. One question would example blender be good as a level design? I've been using blender and unreal for 2 years and in that time I've found that level design can be created in blender faster than UE. if you talk to export import things, well, you have to take a look. What do you think about this?

[@jasonk8175]

Interesting idea but at the end of the day when it comes to level design it's not just about blocking out or creating environments for players rather them playing in these fully created levels with thought out design systems (gameplay mechanics and all that) already in place. I've been using blender for environmental art but not level design. I would suggest you to use level editors that many games already have with their own assets, mechanics and scripts all ready for use. Example -- Arcade Editor from Far Cry 5 is a great level editor.

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Hm this is hard for me to say, because it kinda depends on a lot of things. My first question would be, are you talking about level design or environment art here? Because Blender is just 3d assets, and has little to do with implementing gameplay in playable levels, etc. And even for level layout stuff, assuming you mean importing entire layouts from Blender to Unreal, that sounds like it would make quickly changing and iterating upon layouts based on playtesting etc could get complicated. Although there are some studios out there where level designers use 3d modelling tools like Maya for their level layouts, it's not very common, and often isn't the most practical workflow (again, depending on the game / engine / tools). Having said that, if whatever you're doing works, then it works :)

[@CrusaderGabriel]

Step 1: open unreal engine Step 2: create new project, select templates, select the template of the gamestyle of your choice (FPS, TP, Top-down, etc.) Step 3: on the add button (should be on the top left side, sorry i haven't open unreal in months, im more on the 3D modeling side but im starting to learn level design) select geometry, there you have a collection of primitives you can play around with Optional: there is also a grid type of system built-in unreal 5, never tried it myself but saw some tutorials and looks good enough. So dont really need to spend time with the game programming and all that stuff, you can right out start prototyping levels in unreal without distractions

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Hi - I think we all know that there are primitives to use in Unreal, and I think (as someone more interested in 3D modelling), you've missed the point of my video. I'm talking about level design (for single player games, rather than multiplayer shooters etc), and the goal of level designers to make real, fully playable, finished levels. Not just making empty blockouts for a character to run around in, or with some ultra generic jumping around and shooting using some basic thing bought from the Unreal store. I'm recommending that level designers use the real level editors for real games (like Left 4 Dead or Portal 2), which allow them to use all of the game's content (mechanics, enemies, weapons, scripting systems, dialogue lines and effects, etc) to make real levels with. Because empty blockouts with no gameplay or interactivity in them don't really mean much in terms of level design.

[@Calixj23]

Hello Steve, I hear what your saying about Level Editors, but I've watched a few videos on Hammer and Hammer ++ and although clearly they make level design much easier, I fail to see why UE5 isn't as close to a level editor that a game engine can get. You say UE and Unity start you with absolutely nothing... well, so does Hammer. You have to build a level in Hammer just as you would in UE5. IN UE5 you have mega scans for content, modeling tools for blocking out your level and all kinds of materials. So, I don't understand why something like Hammer or Hammer ++ would be any better than UE5. - Perhaps back in the day, that was the case, but in today's UE5 world, why waste time with a tool like Hammer when you get so much more from Unreal? Please explain. What you're explaining is ver confusing. - And besides, getting your hands on Hammer or Hammer ++ is extremely difficult AND you have to have one of the Valve games loaded on Steam. So, where am I missing the point? I look forward to you clearing this up for me - Thank you!!!

[@HotDogLaws]

the point is that if you want to make a complete level that is professionally presentable, it needs to be playable. in order to do that as a solo dev in unreal you need to be able to do a ton of engineering, art, and animation work to get even the most basic mechanics in. If you want to showcase your level design abilities specifically, it is much easier to make something professional quality using existing release-quality mechanics. And it shows that you can take a set of assets and mechanics and make cool original stuff out of it, which is what you actually do in a professional context. also fwiw I do I level design professionally in unreal 5 but I got started making maps for source games, and I definitely feel that it gave me a massive advantage. #1 being that you can send people your levels and learn how to playtest and iterate, which is an extremely important and very underappreciated skill

[@Calixj23]

Hello HotDogLaws, thank you for your comments. I don't disagree with anything that you said, but unless you use Hammer, which kind of begins by making BlockOuts, then there are no level editors out there for any of us to use, other than using UE5 and BlockingOut with the modeling tools. That way you can create your level, test play for pacing, timing, size, dimensions, etc. -- I hear what Steve is saying and I don't disagree either... UE5 and Unity are game engines not level editors... so, the magic question that I think many of us here have is --- what level editor do I use? I actually downloaded HL2 and got Hammer working. It's not extremely intuitive and tutorials are few and far between. So, based on your professional experience... what level editor would you recommend we use? Hammer??? If so, then that's settled. We all learn Hammer, if not, what should I be trying to acquire in terms of a LE? -- THANKS!

[@stevelee_gamedev]

@@Calixj23Yeah unfortunately that's the big problem for aspiring level designers, that I talk about in other videos - there are barely any level editors out there for modern games! This is why I continue to sound like an old man yelling at the cloud recommending people still make levels for things like HL2 and Portal 2 (its streamlined, built-in editor is really good and easy to use) - because believe it or not, I think it's still basically the best option, if you like these kinds of games.

[@Calixj23]

Hello Steve, you are absolutely correct. There are very few dedicated Level Editors out there, nor any really good Level Design courses. You're fortunate to have worked at the different jobs you've had and had the opportunity to learn Level Design first hand. For the rest of us, we simply have to search the Internet for different rehouses. I know every time I find something new, I read it end to end. I really thank you for all you do. I know I keep pestering you, but it's only because I'm hungry to learn and I think you're an excellent instructor so, thank you Sir for your help!!!

[@redchurch]

ProBuilder & GameTextures and Unity becomes a level editor, at least for architecture and space design.

[@stevelee_gamedev]

Yeah, but if all you can do is build empty boxy geo and walk around, and there's no gameplay or experience, then in my opinion, there's not much level design :)

[@redchurch]

@@stevelee_gamedev I have maybe an odd theory based on the way I look at design at this point in my career. I think the move away from BSP is partly responsible for that trickle-down effect. As BSP is more for architecture/space/layout than gameplay that may seem like a stretch until you consider how gameplay affordances in the space often stem from space/layout design to begin with... IMO it isn't "geo vs. gameplay," from an integrated perspective it's "geo with/supporting gameplay." I view them as holistic at this point. The issue then, when games/editors moved away from BSP is a large part of those gameplay affordances that naturally outflowed BSP-design space went away or became severed and less holistic, all the way up to now where you open something like the Unity editor and there is NO geo, so there can be no gameplay affordances from geo (or a geo creation process) that no longer exists. This, IMO, is the biggest tragedy of the move towards "artists build the level" now or "levels are just boxes with art in them." That's completely cutting out the gameplay-affordance connection that should naturally extend from good space and geo design. It isn't even really geo, if you stop thinking additively and think in negative/space about all architecture/geo is just a frame for the space, and how you move through, and what gameplay affordances can occur from that. Anyway this is something somewhat difficult to explain, it's something I try to train my juniors on as it was an essential level up for me cutting my teeth back in the days of Quake/Unreal. Everything, including gameplay, stems from compelling and economical use of space. That origin source of a lot of "design magic" if you will, was lost once geo/space and gameplay became separated. IMO it's one of the biggest reasons classic level design and those old school skills have been somewhat dying in the wake of the "new school." Very few newer level designers grasp that intuitive relationship between space and gameplay because they learn to just spray art around inside of a cube... Which IMO isn't actual level design.

[@redchurch]

@@stevelee_gamedev Too resummarize short version; The "design" in level design is the integrated connection between gameplay affordances arising from the compelling use of space. Sever geo/space from the gameplay, and you lose the design. Not having a game to build your level for is one way to look at the problem, but a kind of opposite mirror view or a different way of looking at the same issue; No inherent connection between space and gameplay. If you had a game but no geo/space creation tools, you'd have the exact same problem just in reverse from the way you've been describing it. You'd have gameplay with no spatial affordances to "play" in. I don't think the two can ever be severed and still have what is known as level design.

[@What-a-save]

Nah