The History of European Nihilism (The Nietzsche Podcast #71)

What does eternal recurrence mean in the historical sense? Nietzsche invites us to explore that question in his raising of the Problem of Science, and the notion of conflict as central to life. Today, in the penultimate episode of the season, we'll take a look into a section from Will to Power called "The History of European Nihilism", in which Nietzsche takes on the history of Europe from the perspective of his cultural/moral analysis, and charts the history of the descent into materialism as it played out in Enlightenment Europe. In his Pre-Platonic lectures, Nietzsche suggests a parallel between the project of Greek philosophy, and the progression that played out in the centuries of the Enlightenment. The Pre-Platonic Greeks experimented with materialist philosophy, eventually culminating in the atomism of Democritus and the arrival of Socrates, the ultimate logician - soon, the values of their traditions, and their long-held superstitions came to be questionable. The values of the society were undermined, and a crisis of nihilism set it. Nietzsche believes that this played out over the course of several centuries in Europe: in the form of the Reformation, then the scientific dawning of the Enlightenment rationalism with Descartes at the forefront. He comments on many of the figures we have covered this season, such as Kant, Rousseau, Schopenhauer, and others, as manifestations of the spirit of their times, who signified shifts or turning points in the European psyche. He reimagines Kant as a sentimentalist towards the concept of duty, a twin spirit with the moralistic Rousseau, who rebelled against the self-legislating rationalism of the 17th century and instead opted to be guided by feeling.
Now, in Nietzsche's 19th century, he sees the ascendance of a more honest yet more gloomy period of European thought. The animalian in man is fully uncovered and embraced, and man becomes understood as a historical creature. This has dire consequences, bringing on the dissolution of society and the disbelief in all past metaphysical and moral comforts. But, as a result, the European psyche has the opportunity to enter a period of "Active Nihilism", and overcome the previous dogmas as part of a revaluation of all values. In spite of his predictions of coming great wars, Nietzsche is hopeful that the conditions of decay will lay infinite possibilities before us for the future. Contrary to many who warn of degeneration or decadence, Nietzsche cleaves to the conviction that with decay comes new growth, and that periods of dissolution are always periods of great creativity. This is, somewhat paradoxically, one of the more hopeful passages of Nietzsche, which acquiesces both to his belief in eternal recurrence, as much to the hope for something new in the future.
Episode art: George Frederic Watts - Hope
#nietzsche #philosophy #historyofphilosophy #philosophypodcast #philosophyofhistory #kant #hegel #hegelian #rousseau #romanticism #enlightenment

[@uberboyo]

Looks like I’m going to deny life today and stay inside and give this a listen

[@veerswami7175]

Hell yeah

[@Incandescence555]

💡

[@heythere2806]

Uberboyo😃

[@ArcticIdeals]

Have you heard of a guy called "Mike Mentzer"? He actually came up with the idea that staying inside gets you jacked It's actually genius. I've been inside for 3 years and gained 300lbs on my bulk so far

[@vinista256]

“In Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace - and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. “ - Orson Welles as Harry Lime in “The Third Man”

[@abcrane]

Interesting observation. I observe that war and peace may both be achieved with “violence.” Violence can be a complete unleashing of frustrations as in the example given here of the Italians . Too will be released the creative expression . In the case of the Swiss peace may be conflated with “passivity” yet the frustrated instinct is “violently subdued “ not with physical aggression but with “mental “ oppression. The hippies produced some brilliant art and literature as did the anti war Dada artists . I believe conflating correlation with causation os the greatest error of our times . Peace and complacency are also often conflated .

[@vinista256]

@@abcrane I don’t think the writer was endorsing those words. They’re just a good reflection of a nihilistic character. Harry Lime in the film is charming and completely amoral, willing to kill or betray anyone if it will profit him-in this scene, he’s trying to justify himself to an old friend.

[@abcrane]

@@vinista256 oh yes I’m aware of that. I was reflecting on a broader tendency that I see so often . I work with this concept of conflation regarding economics and am locating this tendency in both Orthodoxy and heterodox thinking . It was an insight in the moment more than a judgment on the source . In any case the conflation of ethics and aesthetics I’m finding to be the main contaminant in economic-moral systems. I do believe in part that Nietzsche at times fell into this Conflation Trap. But he also is a master at playing the devil’s advocate so it’s hard to say . Regards .

[@ExiledGypsy]

@@abcrane The conflation of ethics and aesthetics as you put it is contaminant is a lots of human behviour and interactions. For example in the affairs of heart. Aesthetic is closer to our evolutionary insticts than ethics which is a product of social convention. Human nature is paradoxical that without its acceptance as such can result in contradictoy judgments often made in Nietzche's writings. Acceptance of a paradox leads to a ongoing balancing process rather than rejction and condemnation.

[@abcrane]

@@ExiledGypsy well put.

[@ChucksExotics]

I almost have a hard time believing how it's possible you create this quality of content at this speed.

[@ExiledGypsy]

Why? He is only justifying the contradictions in Nietzsche writing. A coherant writing shouldn't need justification.This is the problem with Nietzsche; everyone sees what they want to see. Hitler saw it completely different and used it for his own agenda. I have read not all but three of his books and to be honest it is easy to see what Hitler saw in it. Ubermensch is replaced with master race. His disdain for Judeo Christian values can easily be interpreted as going beyond right and wrong and amorality. But then he also makes moral judgements on others before him. It is time to call a spade a spade.

[@vinista256]

@@ExiledGypsy not sure if I agree with your criticism (that good writing is never subject to interpretation of its implications). Darwin’s Origin of Species is plenty clear, I think, yet Marxists, Nazis, and laissez-faire capitalists all seemed to find something in it that supported their ideology.

[@ExiledGypsy]

@@vinista256 1st of all, let's stick to the exact words. A lot of stuff gets lost when you don't use the exact words. Natural languages are ambigious. So, we need to get rid of the wiggle rooms that ambiguity provides. 2ndly it is important to stick to the context at hand and don't over generalise or I guess you could say over-extrapolate. Without generalisation we can hardly say anything. So while it is a vitally useful tool it can be misused and/or abused. Finally unless I misunderstand you, you have proved my point: "Darwin’s Origin of Species is plenty clear, I think, yet Marxists, Nazis, and laissez-faire capitalists all seemed to find something in it that supported their ideology." I said the narrator was justifying contradictions not "interpretation of its implications". If you read my main comment I said Nietzshe is full of contradictions and that is why everyone see what they want to see in his writing and hence his. Everyone interprets him to suit their own agenda. I have read three of his books but even if you set aside The Will to Power. You can still see how it can easily be interpreted in all sorts of ways and most obvious one is really the most dangerous way. He likes Schopenhour except for this. He hates Socrates because he emphysised on reason which I think is an unreasonable exaggeration initself while he talks about science that is based on Socratese questioning and answering, monumentally exhibite in Plato's work. No scientist ever quotes Nietzche. This is his appeal. Hitler used it and the Martin Lutherking used it. It subverted the meaning of evolution. I come accross well educated white nationalists who quote Nietzche right now. It is unlike any other philosophical writing. It is emotionally judgmental. His almost absolutist disdain for Juedo Christian philosophy is a trap that he sets up for himself that leads to his failure. His whole enterprise was to deconstruct the Judeo Christian philosophy and build a replacement base of pre-Socratese Greek philosophy. He failed and the Horse story myth or not epitomizes his defeat. He is considered as the pioneer of modernism that has been totally broken beyond repair by post modernism and now meta modernism and yet he is still being reinterpreted but not for the right reasons.

[@vinista256]

@@ExiledGypsy just out of curiosity, would you say that Judeo-Christian philosophy (I think that’s how you spell it) is free from internal contradictions? 🤔

[@ExiledGypsy]

@@vinista256 You see I think you misunderstand me. I was not defending Judeo-Christian philosophy. I am an athiest myself, so I have no personal beef in this. I am just pointing out why Nietzche is being reinterpreted concurrently by everyone and everyone sees what they want in it. It is like an echo chamber. Totally in opposition to Schopenhour that doesn't need reinterpreting and if anything it keeps getting stronger. Nietzche's disdain for emotions embedded in our brain regardless of Christian support for them is like battleing against windmills. It is absurd and no amount of contradiction is going to resolve or turn them into a paradox. There is a difference between a paradox and a contradiction. I made the assumption that I did because I couldn't find any other point in your response. If I have made a mistake you are welcom to clarify it.

[@dannyteal1020]

We have difficulty in understanding brilliance

[@AGamer1177]

Living in the Deep South around people that I hate and with churches around every corner with ideas that make me sick, Nietzsche's words give me strength to keep me going and save up to get out of this place and onto greater heights.

[@DionysiaSapentia]

Hell yea bro good luck

[@bloodsonnet]

I’m in the deep south too friend, i feel the exact same way 💙

[@Incandescence555]

I love Nietzsche and would love to live in the Deep South

[@VisiblyJacked]

That which you hate is within you

[@johnstewart7025]

@@VisiblyJacked It occurs to me that those Christians who say that God is love and that refer to Jesus as mainly THE source of love and care in our lives aren't really interested who created the universe or the existence of natural law. In that way, they are similar to Nietzsche.

[@darillus1]

To desire not to desire is a desire

[@garrycraigpowell]

This channel is the pinnacle of podcasts, and Keegan is without doubt the Raphael of podcasters. We are certainly still in the Nihilistic age. The US and UK are both in in danger of disintegration. Europe, as Douglas Murray persuasively claims, is in the process of comitting suicide. The only hope is that given at the end of this episode. We must rise and be overmen and women. I may not be a Napoleon, but I can be an Ariosto, a Purcell, a Turner. Remember that in the Renaissance, most people were quite unaware of what was happening. It was a handful of geniuses, a few hundred great artists, poets, composers and architects who produced the glory of that civilisation. We must do the same - or die trying. This is the theme of my Substack, Write Dangerously. But it could equally be called Paint Dangerously or Play Dangerously. Live Dangerously, friends!

[@DionysiaSapentia]

Absolutely remarkable. Thank you so much for this

[@ExiledGypsy]

Why? He is justifying the contradictions in Nietzsche's writings and he is totally wrong about initial conditions and patterns. In fact the problem of initial conditions in physics was what gave birth to Chaos theory.

[@tinamann3400]

Thank you for this content . Your voice and delivery is very excellent

[@andrewswanlund]

I thoroughly enjoyed this, thanks!

[@MarsATX]

this was really a great episode. I really enjoyed you holding up the eternal recurrance and scientific method, it really set up the whole podcast. very much enjoyed it.

[@AquariusGate]

You work with Nietzsche so fluently, its great work to listen to the connections you make. Theres still a lot to life we don’t know. To look at any individual life we miss the nature of lifes connections, materialism eliminates and isolates discrete parts from study. The focus stays on material ways matter can be further manipulated (reduced). What has been cut out is discarded. If you take the evolution of life from a single cell organism, to the life clinging to today's world. Hasn't evolution been beneficial to a nervous system, far more than any single species? Eternal return speaks to me of this neurological evolution. Soul/spirit/Bramah, etc, all speak to me of a near autonomous nervous system in being. Our minds are growing detached from this essence of life in the delusions of materialism. I do see materialism as a parasitic concept, a mental illness. A darkness overtaking the light of life. Try not to burn out or go insane my friend!

[@smellymala3103]

Unbelievable, … I set a print of this painting out to be hung today!

[@user-jr5vy2bg5q]

I met a traveller from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone stand in the sand. Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed: And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. - Percy Shelley, "Ozymandias"

[@Harrow_]

Could the all-destroying yet creative force of decadence, as the middle ground between moral systems be related to the concept of liminality?

[@nicolaswhitehouse3894]

The disappearance of plastic arts is maybe a possible symptom of nihilism. For example, paintings of Delacroix in my opinion perfectly describes that gloominess, darkness and animalistic period of 19th century. I never liked his choice of colors despite his skills in drawing. Cézanne drawing as if he is sculpting. Impressionists in general as well painting with huge mass of colors and painting, destroying there brushes. I always felt something was off, despite people admiring them. Just my sensibility though.

[@gingerbreadzak]

00:00 🤔 Nietzsche's statement about eternal return being the most scientific hypothesis challenges our understanding of his philosophy. 01:23 🧪 Nietzsche's approach to the philosophy of science was influenced by pre-platonic philosophers, who aimed to explain the entire world, not just physical processes, through principles derived from observable facts. 03:39 🌌 Nietzsche's materialist approach in philosophy led to the abandonment of supernatural and metaphysical concepts, emphasizing the explanation of the physical world based on observable phenomena. 05:16 ⚙ Nietzsche's concept of the "eternal return" is closely tied to his "will to power" philosophy, suggesting that the world operates as a repetitive pattern governed by natural forces. 11:47 🔄 Nietzsche challenges the conventional idea of cause and effect, arguing that the world operates as a multiplicity of interconnected forces without an external substrate or goal. 16:57 📚 Nietzsche uses history to distill insights about humanity and culture, seeing repetition in the rise and fall of societies due to the will to power and the pursuit of knowledge. 21:20 🔍 Nietzsche believes that the scientific process and materialist philosophy are unstoppable forces that lead societies to re-evaluate their values and confront the world as appearance, driven by the will to power. 21:33 📜 Nietzsche's concept of eternal return applied to history and culture involves the need to forge new values or reinterpret existing ones to avoid extinction. 26:35 🔄 Nietzsche views different centuries in European culture as having distinct sensibilities: the 17th century as aristocratic and severe, the 18th century as libertine and enthusiastic, and the 19th century as more animalistic, realistic, and honest. 28:40 🤯 Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation unlocked various impulses and interpretations of Christianity, leading to societal changes, conflicts, and the dissolution of traditional hierarchies. 37:00 🤔 Nietzsche suggests that philosophers like Hegel and Schopenhauer reflect the changing consciousness of their times, with Hegel emphasizing reason and acquiescence and Schopenhauer portraying a more honest, gloomy, and animalistic worldview. 43:10 🌌 Nietzsche highlights Goethe's fascination with Spinoza's pantheistic view of deifying the universe and life to find repose and happiness in contemplation and understanding. 44:05 📜 Nietzsche discusses the 18th century as a more feminine century characterized by sentimentality, contrasting it with the 17th century's focus on reason and individualism. 45:01 🧠 Descartes represents the 17th century's emphasis on reason and inward reflection, marking the beginnings of Continental philosophy and the Enlightenment project. 48:39 🎭 The 17th century seeks to erase individuality and create art that resembles life, while the 18th century uses art for social and political propaganda, creating utopian ideals. 49:17 🎁 The 18th century gives rise to romanticism, sentimentality, and the deification of both man and nature, leading to social and political charlatanism. 52:24 🇫🇷 Voltaire represents the 17th-century belief in civilization's triumph over the "beast of prey" nature, while Rousseau embodies the 18th-century sentimentality and romantic view of nature. 56:45 🧐 Rousseau and Voltaire are expressions of their respective centuries, with Voltaire representing the 17th-century Enlightenment ideals and Rousseau epitomizing the sentimentality and romanticism of the 18th century. 01:02:03 🤔 Kant introduced epistemological skepticism to the Germans, making it acceptable by aligning it with moral and religious needs, marking a shift from clear thinkers like Locke and Hume. Kant was seen as a delayer and mediator in German intellectual history. 01:06:51 🔄 Nietzsche aims to mediate and delay moral fanaticism, as seen in Kant, indicating a core sentimentalist nature beneath Kant's philosophy. 01:08:00 🔄 Nietzsche explores whether the Christian Centuries, the 18th century, or the 19th century represent strengths or weaknesses in different respects, emphasizing the complex nature of historical evaluations. 01:11:54 🔄 Schopenhauer is seen as a throwback to a time before the Revolution, symbolizing a reaction against the romantic celebration of impulses and sensuality. 01:14:12 🔄 Nietzsche suggests that modern man's condition carries both signs of decay and untested strength, highlighting the duality of the era. 01:14:54 🔄 Nietzsche explains that symptoms of decline often accompany major growth and that fruitful movements in humanity can emerge during nihilistic times, signifying crucial transitions. 01:21:53 🔄 Nietzsche discusses how modern man is becoming more natural by embracing amorality, challenging traditional values, and valuing physical advantages, reflecting a shift towards a different worldview. 01:27:43 🔄 Nietzsche views politics as a struggle of power, and he believes that rights are conquests supported by the power of enforcement. 01:28:12 🌍 Nietzsche suggests that people have become less innocent and more closely related to nature, embracing its devilish and immoral aspects. 01:29:06 🤔 Nietzsche contemplates the future, hinting at the possibility that Western values may not collapse entirely but evolve with multiple potential outcomes, including reintegration or failure. 01:30:16 🦁 Nietzsche emphasizes a materialistic, animalistic understanding of humanity, celebrating natural impulses and instincts while rejecting notions of a pure paradise. 01:32:08 💪 Nietzsche believes that individuals with a strong will and spirit have favorable opportunities, emphasizing the importance of self-discipline and strength. 01:35:21 🌐 Nietzsche describes the characteristics of "good Europeans" who are atheists, immoralists, and beyond good and evil, anticipating the emergence of philosophers of the future. 01:39:02 🌎 Nietzsche predicts a significant stock-taking, clearing up, and a great point of departure in the 20th century, marked by great wars and upheavals. 01:44:09 🔄 Nietzsche's view of history centers on eternal recurrence, where decadence and upheaval are cyclic processes, leading to the creation of great individuals and works of art.

[@vinista256]

49:47 - This part makes me wonder about the United States of America, which is pretty much a product of 18th-century thought, even though a lot of its founders were slave-owning aristocrats. Perhaps, those optimistic, idealistic roots are what make it so difficult for many of our citizens to come to terms with the darker parts of our history in any meaningful way.

[@bingflosby]

Your voice sounds similar to another channel I follow

[@untimelyreflections]

Which one?

[@bankiey]

I don’t understand why anyone would propose eternal return, how is this arrived at as a serious idea, surely there’s a reason this idea comes about?

[@nicolaswhitehouse3894]

Yes by the way in French, you don’t pronounce the «e » at the end of the word. Otherwise great video

[@untimelyreflections]

Thank you, my French is terrible!

[@nicolaswhitehouse3894]

@@untimelyreflections No problem ! It takes time to be good at French. But as a French reader of Nietzsche, it is interesting how much French Nietzsche writes to underline a particular thought, sometimes in Italian as well. It is possible that Nietzsche knew that the good taste in art has never be studied so intensely in France or in Italy. Like you said in this video, « la tête domine le coeur ».

[@nicolaswhitehouse3894]

@@patrick112590 Obviously it’s mandatory but he asked for the right pronunciation.

[@veerswami7175]

Bro have you read hindu text hindu trinity One of the god in the trinity is shiva the god of death and destruction I just going through text find a sentence in it Cowardice is a biggest sin and only sin is unforgivable Death is beautiful if men who dying is brave A heart and mind must be from fear from hell and greed of heaven Greed makes people crooks

[@DionysiaSapentia]

Bro what lol

[@Vitlaus]

sarcastic Europeans are great

[@ExiledGypsy]

The initial condition is the biggest problem in physics. You can never be certain of initial conditions. Why Nietzche needs to reinterpreted over and over again and yet Schopenhauer has stood the test of time over and over again? He even predicted evolution before Darwin. There is this romatic attachment to Nietzschet hat has more to do with his emotional style and promises of greatness than his philosophy. His writings are full of contradictions and that is another reason why he can be reinterpreted over and over again. I think Nietzsche would have been the 1st to admit to his failure. He wanted to deconstruct the Judeo Christian philosohy and reconstruct a new set of principles leading to a race of ubermensch. This is why he brates everyone before himself. But along the way he realised that despite all his efforts we are heading for nihilsm. The world we see is chaotic and how can there be eternal return when different spicies have come gone since the Cambrian age unless he was talking about reincarnation. Then there his dispise for pity (very Christian) that finally broke him when he rushed to empathize with a sick horse. He had probably read Crime and Punishment by then and his German DNA was finally overwhelmed by Russian meloncholy. I wish people would see Nietzshe as the wishful thinker that he was. He was a sickman. He was rejected by the woman he thought could be his wife. His way of surviving or his will to survive (more of an instinct than will) manifested in his writings. The best quote that epitomizes that is "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger" which is basically horse manure.

[@untimelyreflections]

1. The horse story is false. Stop repeating myths that you heard without doing the bare minimum of research. 2. He doesn’t berate anyone, except maybe Rousseau. You’re reading your own bitter, resentful attitude into Nietzsche. 3. Nietzsche was right about everything he predicted so I don’t think there’s any “failure” to admit. Schopenhauer himself is a nihilist, so you should see the coming nihilism as a success.

[@ExiledGypsy]

@@untimelyreflections Why does the channel manager keeps deleting my response? I thought we were allowed to challange his analysis. @untimelyreflections?

[@venturasilva1103]

​@@ExiledGypsy Because you're talking out of your ass.

[@ExiledGypsy]

@@untimelyreflections For every piece of research that you can present (which you haven't) I can provide one that confirms it. Were you there yourself? Did you take a picture?

[@cazkelly]

Are you BlackPigeonSpeaks?

[@untimelyreflections]

Why do people ask me that? I sound nothing like this dude.

[@amorfati4096]

After reading the aphorism of Emil cioran, Nietzsche sounds dull and boring. and even sometimes naive.

[@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060]

Cioran tends to mostly just bum me out.

[@amorfati4096]

@@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060 yeah, like bumping my sounds, like in hip hop kids go like dayyum son this shit is dope...

[@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060]

@@amorfati4096 you crazy dawg

[@amorfati4096]

@@tangerinesarebetterthanora7060 Diogenes the dawg not Dmx the big dawg.