UNTOLD - Science, Ethics, and Dog Training with Ivan Balabanov

[@BuzzworthyFinds]

This was such an insightful discussion! I really appreciated how you emphasized the importance of play in developing a dog's relationship with their owner. It's fascinating to think about how much play influences not just training, but also the overall bond and understanding between us and our dogs. The struggle during play really reflects the dynamics of our interactions. Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts!

[@carolbradley7193]

Thank you Dr. Melanie and Ivan for the interesting and thoughtful conversation about a very divisive topic.

[@movechangeheal7361]

This is amazing! I find I am using food only strategically now with my dog. It just started to seem irrelevant as I learned what switched her ion, what she loves to do, which is hunt, retrieve and hunt again. I am creative with toys I use, but she will absolutely look at me like I'm nuts if I offer food in these play sessions. We are now playing cooperatively and it is so much fun!!❤

[@TheBeachloveriow]

Yeah, I must stop using food when I’m playing ball. I started using it because she wouldn’t bring the ball back. I guess she is just not a retriever! She prefers rabbit tug!

[@shepherds.pie.youtube]

It feels great to have that sort of relationship with your dog, hey!

[@JillSwitzer-yj1ml]

Thank you both for this conversation!!!

[@DogTrainerBehaviouristSilvia]

Thank you both. Love your work. Great information 🐾

[@1emmanouil1]

Thanks so much for this conversation Dr Melanie and Ivan!

[@MG-zv9od]

I rewatch this often ❤ so much good information. I find it completely relative to my history with dogs. As a child growing up without a pet dog, I would venture out looking for street dogs. There’s a different relationship when you don’t have a leash and collar, you have to be in agreement with the animal, if you want the company of the dogs who roam free.

[@harmonycanine3907]

Really great conversation with so much depth. I can see the conflict in taking a dog who is too aroused and "telling" them to be calm or just expecting them to be calm to fit better in "our" society. But other than that, why dismiss getting a dog to calm down? Love Ivan's martial arts parallels. If "biting" is their cup of tea, you'll have a hard time getting a fighter to sit and play piano for you at your behest. But even for those dogs arousal isn't continuously escalated. Do they just stop and walk away aimlessly after being allowed their aggressive self expression? Why have some very notable professional fighters on some very big stages, at peak arousal moments after violent victory, chosen to practice self regulation? Drew Dober and Holly Holm are 2 that come to mind. I think the difference is masterful discipline and the power of our own choices. I don't know all the parallels or divergence between human and dog behavior though. Just a lot of observations and a lot of questions.

[@ashevilledogacademy6350]

Excellent discussion. Thank you for this

[@gmelliot19]

Frequent, severe, noncontingent aversive events will lead to behavioral fallout. This is not even punishment this is just abuse. In contrast: the *limited* use of well-timed and well-measured aversive events; that are contingent on a behavior and delivered on a continuous schedule; using a tool that has minimal risk of injury and creates minimal association between the aversive event and owner; in combination with LOTS of freedom and positive reinforcement; will only benefit the dogs welfare (safety and fulfillment)

[@zsahe21]

Wonderfully written

[@Lighthousebob1]

Well said. That's been my experience with multiple dogs. The truth needs to be told. Thank you.

[@Doggie650]

You're familiar with Dr Jaak Panksepp's work with PLAY. It's really important for social rules, bonding, safety, etc. What it actually does to the brain, is remarkable. It's not a goal, but a primary need. Not an expectation based on breed or our expectations. It's why See Stuart Brown understood it with kids diagnosed with certain disorders, it helped them increase test scores.

[@OdosndKuno]

Wow, this was a very high level conversation.

[@zsahe21]

Wow looking forward to listening to this. Thanks

[@liesalllies]

I have an analogy that many people can understand, particularly Americans such as myself, regarding the power of overcoming fear as well as the difference between fear and feeling afraid. Here in America, as in many other places in the world, almost everyone drives a car, or at least knows how to drive one if they don't have their own. We also know that driving a car can be extremely dangerous, driving a car requires knowing the rules of the road and to not follow them can result in serious injury, serious financial loss, or death. When I was a teenager and I was first learning how to drive I was quite honestly terrified. I remember my mom screaming at me to BRAKE BRAKE BRAKE when she was worried I wasn't slowing down fast enough. Driving was quite stressful the first few times as I was figuring out exactly how the car handled, while also being very aware of what was at stake. Over time, however, I mastered the art of driving, and I know the rules of the road. I also, more or less, trust that the other people driving around me are similarly skilled and have at least the knowledge to stay in their lane and to stop at red lights and so on and so forth. I have been driving for decades now, and I am very rarely feeling afraid while driving. But I know not to drive recklessly, I know not to suddenly swerve into oncoming traffic, i know to stop at intersections. Overcoming feeling afraid allows me to drive to and from work everyday without having a panic attack. That does not mean that I will ever forget that the activity I'm engaging in is dangerous, and what the dangers are. Of course I'm afraid of getting into a car accident. They are quite common. My desire to not get in an accident keeps me alert, aware, and following the rules. But I do not *feel* afraid the whole time I'm driving. I am not gripping the steering wheel thinking oh I better not cross the yellow line oh I better not cross the yellow line. I simply know that if I don't cross the yellow line then I will (probably) be fine.

[@shepherds.pie.youtube]

Very good analogy! I agree. The nonsense some people use to ban tools just makes no sense when you put it in people terms.

[@CharlieTheCaneCorso]

I've bin waiting for u to speak to Ivan since the 2 part series with Michael Ellis I know this is gonna be a great episode

[@TheBeachloveriow]

I’m not a dog trainer. I agree with Ivan about fall out. I have trained my dog not to chase a rabbit onto a train track. She just brushed past the aversion and sort of said “ah ok, so I can’t do that… so what else can we do’ She happily plays with a rabbit tug with me. And that is within seconds of receiving an aversive not to chase a live animal

[@angelinacamacho8575]

part of training a dog to control prey drive is to allow it to have something more appropriate to chase as you did. trying to train prey drive out of a dog is like trying to train it to not eat food. it is something that is coded in every dog of any breed because it comes from the natural instinct to hunt. you add a lure course or flirt pole for added stimulation. if possible you can take your dog to herding classes to let it really run wild. City Dogs Try Herding Sheep For The First Time // Presented By BuzzFeed & Subaru kzbin.info/www/bejne/jX-pg3mrrr14ibs I Take my City Dog to Try Herding Sheep For The First Time kzbin.info/www/bejne/inaueKmnhsyZrs0

[@alright..alright]

thanks for this one Dr. Melanie! Ivan's speculation might not be so far-fetched after all. Check this article: Wheat, C. H., & Temrin, H. (2020). Intrinsic ball retrieving in wolf puppies suggests standing ancestral variation for Human-Directed play behavior. iScience, 23(2), 100811.

[@dr.melanieuhde]

Cool I will check that out!!

[@PremierProtectionDog]

Thanks for that one! 🥂

[@eartheclipse9623]

checking that out too :)

[@loderammelaere8105]

I feel a storm coming!

[@MelissaVelezS]

We need those storms!! The industry needs a good shake!

[@eartheclipse9623]

loving the podcast, thank you both. sorry I'm typing as I watch so apologies if I pre-empt thing, I have read the study. do you think it would it make any difference do you think if you used a rabbit/furry type lure instead of a poly bag? what training method, if any do you think may have worked on the 2 dogs that got kicked out? I know that if you gave my dog the choice, he'd chase lorries, he'd hunt foxes, squirrels & cats (we're largely urban), if country lifestyle, it would be deer & sheep, even people he'd chase if you let him - he doesn't even need to see them to start hunting behaviours. e-collar works & he still very happy dog overall. I feel the same with zoo positive reinforcement vs real world, it wouldn't work if the animals were born wild and remained wild, except in a very rare cases. my dog is very much controlled to fit into our human world, i do try to forfil him as much as I'm able to such as man trailing, scent work and play. In hindsight he could have done with staying with his mother for longer because he's rude socially with other dogs and I don't have a good older dog to help teach him those doggy skills, so he doesn't interact with strange dogs. my last dog was totally different to this one, she was very easy with very low predation. with kids it similar, you can explain to kids what the consequences will be and some will still go do the thing anyway. some don't repeat the behaviour after punishment but others like me with adhd absolutely will regardless because the dopamine is what we chase & even that varies by personality, not all of us are extreme sports persons for example, some like puzzles instead, some like both. I think we do misinterpret fear in dogs, its something that is quite complex because in some ways it teaches i.e. the monkey learns not to tease the tiger only after its seen something aversive, it the helps to keep the monkey safe in future. being aware of surroundings stops so many bad things that happening, just how aware are women especially at night alone. ptsd wise I have that and it took a big kick up the butt with my dog because he was becoming overly reactive due to my fears, I had to control my own fears to help him behave better, so it can also spread within a group - this was unreasonable fears that were not present except in my own mind & related to stalking so everyone was a potential threat of info & location because stalker would use other people to gather info on me. this was internalised fear because I felt I couldn't defend myself the way my body wanted to/express my fear properly through a bigger fear of police and social work causing long term issues for my kids. I do wonder how many 'force free & positive only' trainers are actually in a state of survival themselves or have at very least had experienced bad stuff happening to them in their younger years like domestic abuse or sexual assaults and really they themselves have c-ptsd. training was very different 10 years ago and was different again 20 years ago, that I agree with, we are making steps in right directions :) bad people are bad people and they will use anything, even their own body to do bad things with. Shieldk9 brought back some of tools he found when in europe, think he showed them to larry krohn, they were horrific compared to the actual tools! that's what desperate people end up doing. Error free learning doesn't exist in my mind, everything has a consequence, we fall when we learn to walk, we get corrected to learn to speak properly, even if you follow instructions at some point there will be a different situation where you cannot follow the instructions to the letter because it doesn't work in that situation, how it is done depends on the scenario, context etc. the opposite applies also with supporting and encouraging the correct choices. like most things in life its all about the balance, too much of either side brings consequences and reactions in the body. its the true meaning of yin yang, little good in the bad and a little bad in the good, together they balance out. novelty is so true , again its another thing that adhd folk chase - I often wonder how much an adhd person's brain is like a dogs, especially since I have always got along with animals better than humans. impulsive, variable, novelty all plays a part in that, again its mostly dopamine chasing behaviours to one extent or the other. adhd people often lack future sight (I have a variety of unfinished projects🤣) and very much live in the moment with time blindness. with the ball & treat scenario - I used that method to get the ball back & help teach an out, he'd swap The ball for food, then get the ball back, otherwise he would win all the time cos he also hand nipped or grabbed arm instead when young and he loves to whole body tug & body slam when he brings ball back. the only animal my dog grabbed was an already injured squirrel that was under a bush, it couldn't have ran away due to its injuries (possible other dog or a car)! he is quite primitive in that way where if you gave him the choice he'd take the sick, infirm and elderly over the healthy - that is something predators will also do. with pet dogs I think we often see it in some dogs where they go after old people, children or another infirm animal i.e. the neighbours elderly dog. me & my dog have defo not always been on the same page & its something we are still working on. he sometimes maligators me & I sometimes stand on his toes 😂 I think adult dogs still play partly because their basic needs are met, along side impulses. I agree ivan on human/dog coevolution origins although I think it was a stick that enhance the relationships, possibly a kid out with the dog gathering sticks 🤣. oh yes, we had issues with arousal, its much better now through lots of different concepts being used (not medications). The arousal prison - oh, I know all too well, grew up being told to sit still, be quiet, not interrupt etc etc etc - all it did was cause depression and anxiety due to masking, dogs cannot be that much different especially when we are medicating them for it. I do hope we can have conversations with people of differing opinions in the future, however i'm seeing more and more polarisation and cultish behaviours amongst people, espcially online - that is harming everything and since i'm reading Nexus by yoval noah harari i can't help but think this is directly related to algorithms on platforms that are feeding these extremities Thank you both very much, I love these these types of podcasts.

[@matilha01]

Like Jeny told at the TWC "Why dont you put it on tigers"?😂

[@logun24x7]

Personally I think an environment without a healthy amount of fear or discomfort is the breeding ground for depression. Think of living in an utopian environment where there is no stress all your needs are met without challenge or risk of failure. Is that what you want for your dogs, you want to manage your dogs environment into this white space of neutral emotion to prevent them from being over stimulated all because you were too dogmatic to introduce them to a bit of controlled fear or momentary discomfort to teach them a correct behavior response to the stimulus. That sounds more like something a Zoo keeper might to. Personally I want my dog to join in on my adventure with all the fear, anxiety and triumphant moments that come along with it! Don't be a passenger in your dogs life, take them on an adventure!

[@eartheclipse9623]

those people should watch equilibrium - that was exactly what they did in the film :)

[@alexsarbu3978]

Facts check: - the study doesn't do what it claims to do, that is to compare training methods. Why? Because groups B and C were NOT trained to stop chasing the lure. Seriously. - the study doesn't do what it claims to do, that is to address the welfare concerns - except for noticing that all the dogs in the shock group yelped in pain when subjected to electric shocks. Amazingly, this doesn't raise any concern. - there's no investigation whatsoever about the possible fallout, so making claims about it is dishonest. Note that they did not consider other stress-related behaviors like lip licking, supposedly because they occurred too quickly. Cortisol levels weren't properly investigated. - the practical parts of the study were done entirely by Balabanov and his men, without any input or implication from reward-based trainers. 3 web articles on recall training are cited, but their advices were ignored. - the efficacy of the shock training is not 100% as falsely claimed. 2 dogs (out of 8) did not respond to training within the 20 shocks limit and were removed (rather than being failed), and in test 4 only 2 dogs did not chase the lure, with other 2 stopping when they heard "banana". - Balabanov's study was published in a predatory journal, avoiding any peer review. The study Ivan's talking against was peer reviewed, and it's far from the only one.

[@CanineConnectionCR]

is this episode available on spotify?

[@noahb382]

Not yet I don’t see it

[@movechangeheal7361]

Is play the same as work in the dog's mind?

[@eddie_bb]

Play is just play

[@harmonycanine3907]

Not sure if you'd care to hear from me, but I think the distinction only exists in people. For most humans we wake up and have to use our productive energy to make a living. And we hope we have time and energy left over for our hobbies. Dogs don't have that distinction. They wake up with productive energy and put it towards something. There might be things they "want" "need" or "have" to do. But I think they can have motivation across the board that's a lot different from us who have job activities and hobby activities. Maybe a simple way to say it is: You can try to give a dog a "job" but they'll only really do it if they feel like it. But if they want that "job" then they'll be willing and compelled to put in all necessary effort.

[@HoneyBadger0704]

@01:34:21 I personally agree that is very possible indeed.

[@juliedavidson9978]

Why won't Ivan and the authors share the videos from the study? Instead of saying "if I showed you" just show us. Unfortunately, the process used as the "reinforcement based" training is not how any reinforcement based trainer would have approached the goal, so the study didn't actually compare force-free methods to anything, because those methods weren't employed. Additionally, it is interesting to me that all the dogs in the e-collar yelped, and yet e-collar trainers constantly claim that it isn't painful. Don't even get me started on the ethics here. Dogs shouldn't be subjected to this.

[@eartheclipse9623]

the videos in scientific papers are autotomised i.e the independent doesn't know what is actually happening and is just reading body language in response to something happening and reviewed by independents, they are part of that study and its raw data, which very few people ever access from any science paper. there no such thing as force free anywhere in life and your attitude most certainly ain't force free, its controlling actually. you can yelp through a startle which as far as i've seen is more akin to what e-collar stimulation is because it creates an involuntary movement by causing the neck muscles to contract. Ask yourself this - do you ever make a noise via being startled, I bet you do, was it painful, no, was there learning in it , well that depends on a whole bunch of criteria such as was it a unexpected grope? or a friend getting your attention? or a sibling on the windup? or someone stopping you from walking out in front of a car because your face was in your phone? Vocalisation isn't always related to pain. have you ever seen a child burst into tears because they got a fright at mum grabbing their arm and yanking them back when they've tried to run on the road? same thing, takes them a couple of moments to settle/re regulate emotions, however they've learned and can carry on in life otherwise without worry, until they come to the next road, then the correction memory is in their mind which stems the impulse to run across that road again and keeps them safe. at the end of the day e-collar usage is largely about keeping dogs safe whilst allowing them to be a dog and not constantly tethered to one thing or another. the ethics board reviewed methods and set criteria, i'm sure they are plenty qualified for that job regardless of your opinion on it. in addition, I think you forget that ethics is not a straight line nor are morals and both are human based social concepts in the first place.

[@the.dogwalkerdiaries]

​@eartheclipse9623 do you think it would be a good idea to put electronic collars on naughty human children?

[@eartheclipse9623]

@@the.dogwalkerdiaries what a stupid argument, children speak the same language for starters and have very different priorities than a dog does. For example, if your young child is killing animals bigger than bugs, especially as a toddler or young child, it's usually a good sign they'll become a psychopath or serial killer from what we already know based of studies on prisoners who committed those types of crimes, for a dog it is a very natural thing to want to kill other things, it's how they eat & protect themselves in a natural world, it's our human world rules that say they cannot eat the neighbours cat or the farmers sheep and our vehicles that make running across a road dangerous & the cost of that is often the dogs very own life, ain't nothing more aversive than that. Such a bot thing to say too 😂

[@juliedavidson9978]

@@eartheclipse9623 Your examples of "force" used on children is why dogs need to wear leashes. As a safety mechanism to prevent damage. When a mom grabs a kids arm to stop them from stepping in front of a car the purpose isn't to teach them to not step in front of a car, it is to save them from the pain of being hit by the car, which would be far more severe of a life lesson by punishment then being grabbed in the arm. We should not create lessons for teaching that inflict pain to children, dogs or anyone else. Running loose but with a collar that shocks them when they make a mistake is not allowing them to be more of a dog than using a long line or leash. In this study they set up a learning plan where they allowed the dogs to enjoy and be rewarded for chasing a lure, then put them in the same situation they had enjoyed, and shocked them for the previously rewarded behavior. That is an unethical and frankly cruel way to teach any being anything. And since the "reinforcement based training" was not done in a way any educated and experienced trainer would do it, it only proves that the trainers have absolutely no idea how to train without using their zap button. Have I ever made a sound from being startled? Yes, and no matter what the situation was, it never felt good. Startling a learner is, again, not a good tool for teaching. But considering they had to turn the intensity dial up on these dogs, I am pretty sure they experienced pain. It seems illogical to argue otherwise. But I don't expect good logic from anyone condoning this study, let alone believing it was a good study that proved anything other than that shock collars hurt, and the trainers that use them don't know how to teach a dog without them.

[@lindsay9678-l8l]

​@@the.dogwalkerdiaries dogs don't have the same comprehension as humans so not a relevant argument

[@wolfthiele6137]

As a scientist, can affirmatively state that the design and methods used are at all adequate to begin comparing efficacy and welfare of shock collars vs "force free"? I.e. is having the compulsion trainer also do the force free training acceptable? Is dropping a treat in a bowl after a cue the accepted force free method to disrupt prey drive? Balabanov said "it's like writing a book" but Wynne posted on FB "but at no point did they contribute to the design (or analysis, or write-up) of the study". You can find very detailed criticisms of the "study" and only the dog selection is discussed. Missed opportunity. And lots of people are waiting for the release of the videos.

[@alright..alright]

I really hope the videos from this study are released. And not just for this study, but for others as well, like: Handley, K., Hazel, S., Fountain, J., & Fernandez, E. J. (2023). Comparing trial-and-error to errorless learning procedures in training pet dogs a visual discrimination. Learning and Motivation, 84, 101944. China, L., Mills, D. S., & Cooper, J. J. (2020). Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement. Frontiers in Veterinary Science, 7. De Castro, A. C. V., Fuchs, D., Morello, G. M., Pastur, S., De Sousa, L., & Olsson, I. a. S. (2020). Does training method matter? Evidence for the negative impact of aversive-based methods on companion dog welfare. PLoS ONE, 15(12), e0225023. So far, video footage from these studies hasn’t been made public due to confidentiality concerns, but with today’s technology, this could easily be resolved. I really hope video releases become the norm, not just for this study but for all studies! :)

[@wolfthiele6137]

to me the videos aren't important. The design of the "study" seems to bad that Dr. Uhde should probably point out why she thinks it's worth the pixels spilled for it.

[@Chris01494]

@@alright..alrightTo what end? We already know that according to the scientific consensus aversive methods result in pain, fear and distress.

[@alright..alright]

​@@Chris01494For the sake of greater transparency, I am fully in favor of ALL studies being rigorously analyzed and critiqued. Or are we going to randomly choose which studies to scrutinize, or maybe we choose based on the authors? What is your proposal?

[@Chris01494]

@@alright..alright Simple, those who would like to obtain the videos do so through the proper channels rather than clamoring for the release of said videos in public the latter being rather performative and exploitative vs genuine scientific curiosity.

[@alexsarbu3978]

Proof that zoo animals are starved? Don't make up BS.

[@alexsarbu3978]

Ivan, how did you manage to completely botch the treats training in your "study"? I mean, you didn't even attempt to do a basic recall. Come on, saying "banana" and dropping a treat in a bowl, with the dog 23m away? Nobody trains like this.

[@PbasR]

He didnt, always read the entire studies not just the abstracts. It says with gradual training its possibly achievable ( which is how reinforcement training is done when its done properly). Sometimes however, you need a quick fix before the dog gets itself killed and then you fortify that with reinforcement training.

[@alexsarbu3978]

​@@PbasR He absolutely did, in a way that made him a laughing stock. A trainer so well-regarded by the "balanced" community to make such a blunder even a beginner would not do? And your defense isn't very apt either, as you only manage to say that there was no proper reinforcement training in that study. But, like I said, it's worse: there was no training at all for groups B and C. So, tell me, why would anyone trust a trainer who tells them dogs must be shocked, but can't understand what he did wrong in that "study"?

[@PbasR]

@@alexsarbu3978 you misunderstood, i meant that he never said that treats training does not work. The study only says that with 4 days of temporally equal training e collar achieved better results. He goes to say that gradual training with treats can possibly achieve similar results. For example, if a study says that coffee increases blood sugar 2 hours after consumption, doesn’t mean that it is saying that coffee causes diabetes.

[@alexsarbu3978]

@@PbasR Better results than what? Than NO TRAINING WHATSOEVER. You keep ignoring that part. Pretending that the "study" compares shock training with reward training is a LIE. An utter, dishonest LIE. The dogs were never told they should recall when someone says "banana". Seriously, how much of an ignorant one has to be to not realize something that basic? And this is compared with something that dogs can clearly understand: pain. Not only did they (Ivan and his man) start as if the dogs would be already trained - 23m+ away, chasing a lure, hearing a word without any meaning to them. But to see, for 4 days, that the "training" didn't do anything yet keep doing the same thing? How... convenient! And, no reward trainer who could call out the BS was coopted; convenient indeed! The fact is, Ivan made sure - intentionally or out of ignorance - that groups B and C would completely "fail". Except people know how a basic recall training works...

[@alexsarbu3978]

@@PbasR Did my reply disappear? The study can only say 2 things: that the dogs yelped in pain when subjected to high intensity electric shocks, and that shock collar training works better THAN NO TRAINING AT ALL. It cannot claim anything at all about reward training, since none was done. Saying a random word towards dogs otherwise busy... are you guys for real? Do you expect to fool people with that? Come on, outside of Ivan's echo chamber things are so obvious... no reward trainer coopted, Ivan keep doing for 4 days something completely stupid which obviously never had a chance to work... he wasn't subtle at all. It's so easy to get a dog to come from up close, introducing a cue, then gradually increase the distance and add distractions. If at any point the reliability drops the trainer would have to take a step back to a point where it succeeded, work on proofing that point then again increase distance or add distractions. I don't know the dogs and can't give guarantees, but I'm quite sure that with 4 days of proper training (by a proper trainer!) there would be some responses in the tests. And stop saying "gradual training" as if that would be a concession. Actually the study talks about gradually increasing the lure speed... but not about properly training even a basic recall. By the way, do the authors understand what they're doing when attempting to condition "banana"? Such ignorance... Oh, and the cherry on top? A simple recall trained with treats isn't the most powerful reward technique applicable in such situations.

[@taylorzinck8799]

30:05 🤌🤌🤌

[@positivehotdogs]

Keep up the great work and hopefully you and Ivan can get together again. Perhaps, with your academic status, you can help expose the pseudoscience coming from the cookie-pushers.