Unveiling America's Hidden Caste System: Isabel Wilkerson

Celebrated author Isabel Wilkerson joins Jemele to discuss her sensational new book, “Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents.”
In this book, Wilkerson gives a masterful portrait of an unseen phenomenon in America as she explores, through an immersive, deeply researched, and beautifully written narrative and stories about real people, how America today and throughout its history has been shaped by a hidden caste system, a rigid hierarchy of human rankings.
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Award-winning journalist and culture critic Jemele Hill interviews the most compelling figures in news, pop culture, politics and sports. Expect unbothered and unfiltered conversations.

[@CornellNash]

To Ms. Isabel I am a 80 year old Black man who reside in Dallas, Texas and I am watching the podcast on the book that you have written, and first of all; I feel obligated to compliment you for being such a "BEAUTIFUL" Lady, and from what I'm gethering, you are just as Beautiful inside as you are outside. I have'nt purchased your book yet, but I'm definitely going to buy your book titled "Caste". I do understand that (RACISM) is something that still exist here in the U.S. and it's probably gonna exist throughout our live time, but at this point in my life; I am trying to figure out the best way to deal with it. I could say much more, but please know that I Commend, Respect, and Applaud you for having the Courage to write the much needed book. Continue to be BLESSED.

[@paulacopeland8360]

Isabel Wilkerson is a brillant woman. My maternal grandparents migrated from Pittsylvania County, Virginia to Philadelphia, PA in 1924. My father fled from Hartsville, SC to New Haven, Connecticut in 1940.

[@357Donnell]

100% agree

[@TT-di4qz]

My family is from Hartsville as well. Many of my family members migrated to Philadelphia, New York, Delaware and Maryland. It was a requirement in my family at that time to flee Hartsville once you graduated. Many don't know that Hartsville was a sundown town and a primary location for the KKK. I can remember KKK parades as a child and I am 47.

[@edanevans298]

I have Wilsons and Inges in my family tree in the 1800s who were from Pittsylvania Co., VA, too!

[@jamalyoung8461]

Same county!!

[@paulacopeland8360]

@@TT-di4qz What is your Hartsville family's surname.

[@jazzyjaz8949]

THIS IS HANDS DOWN THE MOST IMPORTANT BOOK IV’E EVER READ!!! 🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾 SO GRATEFUL ISABEL!!!

[@michelleMyBean]

^^^AGREED!!!!^^

[@dwill5796]

My wife and I have had the book since first published. Enjoyed listening to this interview. You two ladies exemplify professional excellence to the fullest. Be cognizant of your mental, spiritual and physical health as this work can be draining. Much success and joy to you both!

[@GeeBee212]

I enjoyed The Warmth of Other Suns so of course I had to read Caste. I agree with the analogies made when comparing India and Germany to the United States but I firmly believe that caste is a layer of the racism in the US. Unlike India and Germany, it is the race that shows up on your face that orders how you're treated in America. In Germany, yellow stars had to be affixed to clothing to tell who was who. It is apparent in the US.

[@jeffriependergrass1295]

Wish more people would go see Origin. 2 hours and 21 minutes went by so quickly. I didn't know how they would make Caste entertaining but Ava did that shit. Made me come home and reread the book. Please go see Origin.

[@amoijoy573]

I love Isabella Wilkerson as much as I can without even meeting her. The Warmth Of Other Suns is my favorite book until Cast. When she speaks I absorb all she has to offer because I never want to forget. I go to the book stores often & I put her books upright front & center. Sometimes I use her book to cover up fake news political bull shit books from the liars. Yes I do❗️

[@Ali-in8xi]

My maternal grandmother was born in Richland, South Carolina in 1912 and was part of the Great Migration, perhaps arriving in New York City in the mid-1930s. When I was about 10 years old (so we’re talking 1979), I had a Social Studies teacher, Ms. Carmichael. Our class was made up entirely of black students. Before the start of class, Ms. Carmichael would lock the classroom door, pull down the door's window shade, and slide the blackboard which revealed another behind. What was revealed were pictures of African Americans, i.e., Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King Jr. and narratives to the sides of each. She also discussed Abraham Lincoln and his “greatness”, the South, and the plight of blacks, which were all regularly discussed topics in her class. I, and I believe all the students, instinctively understood that what was being viewed and discussed were things to be kept secret, happenings that were never to be talked about outside of Ms. Carmichael’s class. I don’t recall any student ever discussing Ms. Carmichael’s teachings to anyone. I believe we became intrigued with what we were learning, and we did not want to see it end. What also added to our understanding of this secret endeavor was the fact that on days that Ms. Carmichael was absent, the substitute teacher would never lock the door, pull down the door’s window shade, or slide the blackboard. During these classes, we were taught about, for example, Christopher Columbus and his discovery of the “new world”, George Washington and the Revolutionary War, and Benjamin Franklin and the eventual invention of the light bulb. On rare occasions, the substitute teacher would discuss George Washington Carver, the “peanut” man, as we understood his only contribution to be. What became of Ms. Carmichael’s teachings was my need to know more. It was around this time I began asking my grandmother questions about her life. She was adamant in her refusal to answer my questions, always giving the same replies: "Why are you asking me that?” and “That’s my business!”, and “You don't need to know nothing about that!" I have spent my entire life feeling her pain, being angry for her pain, and coming to terms with the probable reason I never got what I desired to have, a complete knowledge of what it was like for her, growing up in that place during that time. Love you Grandma!

[@debiwilliams1588]

Great interview ladies. My parents came up north and met in Connecticut in the 1960s. He was from South Carolina and she was from Mississippi. Both remained haunted by the trauma they left behind. My mom’s main thing was for her children to be born outside of the south and have access to a better education than she did. It worked. Thank you Isabel for your dedication and research. You presented the migration and it’s aftermath brilliantly in the Warmth of Other Suns. I look forward to reading Caste. Your work is a gift that should be read, studied and examined widely. The fact that there are no statues of Nazis in modern Germany speaks volumes about symbols and what a society needs to consider in order to move forward and heal is so telling. That whole connection is mind blowing!

[@gallen2101]

This Book Is a Masterpiece!! A Brilliant Author...a riveting page turner guaranteed to leave an impression long after you've completed. I have actually sent this book to inmates who admit it's the "first book they've ever read cover to cover"!

[@kudjoeadkins-battle2502]

While reading various Slave Narratives involving people who were children when emancipation occurred. Almost without exception they said that their elders didn’t talk about slavery much. I think it’s similar to what happened during the Great Migration. Many of the elders didn’t speak of it to shield their children from the shame and degradation that those elders had dealt with. I came to a surreal conclusion when I realized how bad it must have been. Worse than we can imagine. I do understand why they may have done that. But I will say that them caring enough to shield us from the brutality that they dealt with. You now have people who say that their grandmothers told them their people weren’t slaves at all. I asked my grandmother who passed two years ago at the age of 97 about her great grandparents. She laughed when I asked were they slaves saying “nah they won’t slaves”. Upon investigation all 8 of her 2x great grandparents were slaves.

[@TG-hf1gx]

New sub here!🤩 Hallelujah!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Thank you so much for this interview!🎇🎁🎆 I saw the movie, ORIGIN, last week & hope it's still in the theatre tomorrow so I can see it again!!!💯 Next, I'm buying the book and then I need to go see some museums.🏙️🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️ I left the DMV and got out of the habit of going to exhibits. I miss hopping on the bus to visit the Smithsonian.🏙️🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️🏃🏾‍♀️ The trauma done (and still being done) to our people in the US is infuriating, i.e., Louisiana, Mississippi & Alabama to name a few...😤 PTSD post traumatic stress disorder PTSS post traumatic (stress) SLAVE syndrome have been absolutely debilitating for so many.😭 Thank you for obeying your Spirit Ms. Wilkerson.🙏🏾 Life dealt you lemons but you made lemonade. And we're thirsty for more of your brilliance!📚📚✍🏾🍵 You two are amazing!🎉👸🏾🎇👸🏾🎊 Much Love from SF, CA🙋🏾🌉

[@Marcus410]

Sista, I also loved "The Warmth of Other Suns"......was a BEAUTIFULLY written book. Just bought "Caste" also, looking forward to getting started AND seeing "Origin" !!!!!

[@357Donnell]

100% agree, and Origin is worth the 30+ minute drive to get to the theater.

[@rpcrealpeopleconsulting6324]

Isabel looks like my young grandmother the resemblance is incredible what a beautiful lady.

[@dominiqueremi7685]

I am from Belgium, watched the movie Origin last night... and I was so impressed by the way Isabel analyse the caste system that I intend to go and watch it again tomorrow night ! Thank you so much as I feel that we need more than ever to be vigilant. Unfortunately, I recognised the same kind of system showing up during the Covid 19 crisis with the segregation between "essential/non essential" professions and then Pass/non Pass mesures, using fear for restricting suddently and for a while the Human Rights of some categories of people.... And when you get interested into Klaus Schwab or Yuval Noah Harari writings about the tranhumanism model, it is very promising for a new dominant caste to be born soon!

[@nobullzone8394]

I was having this conversation with my mother the other day and I was telling her that all of us American descendants of slavery all have Stockholm syndrome we all have it when it comes to this country and the atrocity that it has put on our communities on our bodies on our families on our children I live 45 minutes from the slave market that still stands in downtown Fayetteville North Carolina where my great-great-grandfather was sold not once but twice, as this past month they sponsored that particular slave market house in one of the papers as 2 to 3 dozen black female entrepreneurs Post in front of it unaware of its dark history smh but anywho I enjoyed this conversation Happy New Year from your little sis in North Carolina

[@Rizzydizzydoodah]

You were not enslaved that didn't affect you. Saying it did is an insult to people who were actually in slavery. It doesn't affect you.

[@elinorpowellbloom5000]

Great segment. I’m excited to read each of her books. Thank you for sharing her insightful works with us. Respect.

[@357Donnell]

100% agree

[@nagone11]

Read CASTE and I'm currently re-reading it now...even more significant now than when I first read it 2 years ago.

[@MsMizz1]

Been had Caste on my list!! She is stunning 🤩!!! Skin, hair, smile, nose, eyes, brows, cheekbones - natural beat with that deep lipstick just gorgeous. Jemele also beautiful as always.

[@RedClaw8605]

Somebody needs to give this book to Nikki white side of the tracks haley.

[@moranast]

This book is truly powerful and thought provoking

[@357Donnell]

100% agree

[@4SeaSonS1435]

This conversation - between these two beautiful & intelligent women - has been profoundly insightful! Thank you ladies... love from the UK 🇬🇧⚘🙏🏽

[@caroldavid3716]

I totally agree that I could never get my Mother or Aunt whom grew up in Mississippi to talk about growing up in there.

[@Marvel-Rogue]

Audio 📚 aren't just for KIDS anymore 🤣 . Man i've always liked audio books 🎧I mean heck WE used too have them in schools at SOME point or ANOTHER here and near. Reading is still fundamental📖📘📗🖊. ✌🏽

[@357Donnell]

100% agree

[@bobbullethalf]

Great book, cover to cover. I could not put it down.

[@racif]

I agree with Ms Wilkerson (and love her work) about having other professionals do the audiobook part because I've heard some done by some authors that really were poorly done. However, the best audiobook is one done by Toni Morrison by herself. You get every nuance of what the words were supposed to convey. My imagination when I read it made me love Beloved. BUT... when I heard the audiobook by Toni Morrison....my GOD. I cried in places I hadn't cried at. It was a completely different experience and I wanted Toni to read me everything.

[@dre_withwithout]

Got a new book to get.. shoutout to her

[@zinawinder1220]

Great interview!!!❤

[@presence08]

Very good interview!! Thank you! Timeless!

[@davidiihouston6883]

Fantastic interview.

[@Tubulous123]

Thank you!!!

[@sheritawalker8689]

I listened to her book also, and it was amazing.

[@leflore101]

Love the gracefully wise, Sistah-sharing! Thank you both.

[@tacrewgirl]

Great interview. I just finished this audiobook.

[@357Donnell]

100% agree

[@vneal1969]

I relate so much to everything she's saying. This was a great interview!

[@AJW3B4L]

Great book!!!

[@corysimmons455]

Very smart and intelligent woman fantastic interview

[@kashmoney7421]

I watched sbout 5 min of this interview and went and got the book and also just went with my wife and watched the movie. The kne line that got me was i dont do questions i do answers. Essentialy humans have been finding ways to subjugate each other based on some trumped reason or another for a long time. Race, religion, eye color, are all just new spins. And the knly thing to fix our amwrican caste is reparations. Dhe walked up tonthe line and crossed it. Thank you.

[@millyh4660]

I’m going to see the movie Original this week! I’m going to read the book afterwards. ❤

[@davida1023]

Hello Jemele been so busy I did not know Unbothered was back .Been an avid listener and I have your book love you and what you do for the culture. Black History 365 Isabel Wilkerson is the Bomb love her. ORIGIN please give her the Oscar for the movie🎉❤❤😢

[@JoeyAfrika]

You gotta get Dr. Burden Stelly on. Caste doesn't explain our condition in the United Snakes. Colonialism does

[@Hfgv281]

Isn't she saying "caste" is the overarching system, created by colonializers, that set the stage for oppression and subjection of certain groups in society? To me the answer is yes. Race was used as one of the markers to support Europeans who enslaved Africans and brought them to the US. Yet, race isn't the only marker used by superior groups to enslave, oppress, or disenfranchise (and sometimes wipe out with genocide) certain groups by a self assigned superior group. Race is just a big part of American history that it's difficult to process her view without seeing past it. Yet, eveb amongst ones own race, there is a caste system. Similar in India and several African countries where superior groups within said groups feel entitled to oppress and dehumanize the ones they feel are inferior to them. Racism cannot he the predominant system in one case, as an example, while simultaneously you have people in the same group treating their "skinfolk" terribly. There must be another system at play.

[@claudenobles779]

Isabel is visually stunning and intelligent ...wow

[@Marc_Dub7]

Before reading Wilkerson’s Caste or watching Origin, read the brilliant Dr. Charisse Burden-Stelly’s essay “Caste Does Not Explain Race” (2020) in the Boston Review.

[@msrubie11]

@Marc_Dub7 CASTE needs to be written for the Latin and Caribbean Nations where CASTE originated and was practiced. It will never define anything in the U.S. because RACE was the driving force of prejudice in this country. NEW ORLEANS is the only southern state you found vestiges of CASTE because it was purchased from the FRENCH, who believed in that system. Black Americans almost cut New Orleans off because of it. So even they stopped and toned down that practice. No one was putting up with the Brown Paper Bag test. I mean no disrespect, it has nothing to do with her writing brilliance. But it doesn't fit the Black American DELTA narrative she's attempting to spin. This is why no one knew what she was speaking about when she asked! It's not our story. The 1 drop rule existed in the south and it was implemented. It was RACE, not CASTE when it came to JIM CROW!

[@daphnebrown8863]

Precisely. We do not have a caste system in America.

[@msrubie11]

@@daphnebrown8863 She's reaching! The attempted erasure and changing of our history is in full force. Black Americans need to be aware of this and combat it when it's presented. No matter who it comes from!

[@micheleshropshire9469]

​@@msrubie11 I think you missed what she was saying.

[@msrubie11]

@@micheleshropshire9469 You stated, "you think I missed what she was saying." How so?

[@davruck1]

I wonder how I can get in touch with her. I am a writer and have an interesting story to tell that really hammers home her point.

[@357Donnell]

Thank you JH for putting this out, I haven't read/heard the book YET, but I have seen Origin. Respect 🔥to the Sade of Non-Fiction, the new Smooth Operator 🖤!

[@guruuvy]

My parents came here from Africa in the early 60’s and lived through Jim Crow as teenagers. Neither them nor my Mom’s sister have ever spoken about it.

[@jaiyabyrd4177]

Thus is interesting, but Foundational Black Americans cannot just speak about a a so-called American Caste sytem without distinctly speaking also about systemic racism.

[@cherylpowell6483]

❤ your podcast. America has racism cancer. The longer it goes untreated, the harder it will be to stay united and respected.

[@sandal_thong8631]

I just saw _Origin_ in the theater before it left Wednesday. After they cut away from the young Black man who was in peril, I got bored during the next 15 minutes before it got going on the journey of discovery, which I liked. I haven't read the book, but read of the 8 pillars of caste, that might have been written on the dry-erase board. I'll agree that "race" and "racism" might be overused, though sometimes it's deserved. And there's a downright antagonism to the term "institutional racism," so maybe the term "caste" will help us going forward. I read _How Fascism Works_ a couple years ago, and one of its techniques is to go after any kind of authority that might contradict the leader. They've been going after writers and their works in Florida, and college presidents elsewhere. You'd think such people being well-educated would know how to deal with McCarthyism-style attacks? You don't try to defend the works, (which is what E.C. did for its horror comics in the 1950s and went out of business, except for Mad Magazine) you say that they are wrong to want to ban it so others can't see it. And we don't know where the next good idea may come from; who knows if a decapitation depicted in a horror comic book might have helped a veteran with PTSD? They then say it's not really banned when pulled from libraries, people can buy books if they really want them. I've got this and _Defeating Dictators_ on my to-buy list when I get back out of debt.

[@louverture905]

Two intelligent women who are not resigned to the notion that American is the some of its many individual parts. It is never going to be perfect. The promise of Americas is to be 'a more perfect union.' That it has become. And, like most nations in the world, it will likely never be perfect at all. We measure it by progressions...

[@Missy714]

There's been enough time & many chances. Delays are no longer acceptable.

[@siriuslyspeaking9720]

What's hidden about racism and classism anywhere in the world? The rule in most places has been power supremacy? I think more thought should be used in choosing titles for videos. In answering the question of how she came to write the book 'The Warmth Of Other Suns'. Wilkerson delved into the psychological impact of racism in all its forms on Black people during the Jim Crow era. She said many who had lived through it, were reluctant to talk about it. She equated it to 'post traumatic stress disorder'. Today it is said that trauma is passed down through genes. Jewish people were the first people studied to confirm the hypothesis of this. Juxtapose this with how many of us respond to the conditions in the "hoods" many of us live in or have lived in over the last 60 years? Many often say "our people sell drugs to survive". Is survival really that difficult in the U.S.? Is survival today more difficult than in the past, when most of us lived in the south? How do we explain the glorification, celebration, and emulation, of the self-destructive criminality that we engage in to such a significant degree? How do we explain the popularity of entertainment that depicts the worst of the lives we live and the conditions that produce? How do we jibe this with the idea of triggers to trauma? Are we really taking all this talk about trauma seriously? Which is more pressing an issue - post trauma or the real-time constant/continuous trauma we experience everyday?

[@msrubie11]

@siriuslyspeaking9720 Why would they talk about CASTE when it never applied to them? I'm from the DELTA and they talked to me but not her? Black American elders are very savvy people. "TRAUMA?" You're talking to the wrong people! The drugs was put in the community by the CIA! It was a way to make money because of the SOCIAL STRATA of contrived ADVERSE Discrimination! That's based on RACE not CLASS!

[@Goldmember66]

Hey Jesmelle, how bout that white coach it Detroit?😎

[@emilyhayes6609]

Can we get a video of ms wilkerson meeting aunjanue ellis taylor please n thank u

[@recipebandit3563]

If you haven't seen the movie Origin or read Ms. Wilkersons books... you must beautiful works of art.

[@JDris08]

I just recently traced both sides of my family to Valdosta Georgia and the country around Birmingham, within 2 generations removed of my set of 4 direct Grandparents

[@DerekFullerWhoIsGovt]

🙏🏽🙏🏽

[@MrSolonolo]

Greetings and thanks for this podcast. In answer to your question about why there seems to be so much concerted effort to erase or obfuscate our history, I will offer an answer which , until now, noone has seemed very willing to accept or even agree with. I believe the fact of the matter is that, if our history was made plain and the cumulative events of 4 centuries of violations of human rights were to be acknowledged... All global financial institutions would quickly need to realize that they cannot afford to pay the punitive damages which are in fact due. These damages to include the massacre of Native Peoples and the effective theft of life limb and property. This touches closely upon the topic of "reparations to descendants of African American Slaves. There simply is not enough money in the entire global economy to be able to pay the BILLS for these crimes against humanity and "they" KNOW it. That is, of course, if they also intend to maintain an advantage or retain the inherent privileges which our systems and institutions have been configured to protect.

[@StirUpYourPurpose]

14:26 The depravity of man...must people knew of someone who had been lynched! "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jer. 17:9

[@BusinessOfBeing]

🤎✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾🤎

[@Kali4Action]

Who would want to talk about how your dignity and honor were taken and thrown in the trash every day all day in every way by a people who never told you the reason why, and so effectively instilled fear, aww, and admiration for. After all, we prayed to their image on the cross and thought they were god, some still do. .....if not for the strength of conviction to believe in God our people would not have survived and I seriously doubt if any other people in earth's history could have survived what black America has in this MAAFA

[@trustingod0]

She’s just saying the same thing Dr. Frances Cress Welsing was teaching us.

[@mattmatthews7487]

Looks like war lt was a war and is now.

[@Demebeso714]

Hidden? How so?

[@evelynramos445]

MLK was spiritually influenced by Ghandi. My mom gave a book she couldn't read of Ghandi. Actually take it out, only book she gave me in adulthood. She traveled to India not vacation....

[@researchtwins]

This is still overt and obvious in Alabama…normal…

[@evelynramos445]

Harriet Tugman journey 300 slaves North. The gathering of 300 slaves, traveling presently can sense. No phone then yet gathering and leading.

[@misshelloareyouthere]

THINGS THAT MAKE U SAY HMMM! The only thing the Book Caste/ movie “ Origin” should say to BLACK diaspora Americans / Black grassroots Americans/ black skinned indigenous Americans . In the USA, It will alway be in most cases your black skin THAN class . For non black poor people , you can always pull your WHITE card. ALSO interesting! Jewish, Latino, Asian , Muslim ( Palestinian, middle eastern) people want BLACK people to cape for them policy wise but they are against black grassroots Americans/ black skinned indigenous Americans getting REPARATIONS . THAT is the main take away every black person should get from all of this.

[@Mr.Smith0875]

Ahem....excuse me ma'am. Someone owes Dan Campbell a PUBLIC apology. It's the right thing to do. Ok....bye.

[@herman7153]

Apologize to Dan Campbell ? Or that doesn’t apply to you ?

[@fve-cp4jt]

There is a lack of honesty : racism has caused lot of damage yo can't denying that and say that it's the same for all, there is a double effect for black people : CASTE +RACISM (not only caste as you says)

[@michaelmcgill-davis8625]

This was a terrible interview Jemele. It just doesn't take that long to read this great book 'CASTE'.

[@user-lf9ew3bp5q]

Question? Your thoughts on Dan Campbell & The Lions

[@SuiteVII]

The Sade of Non-Fiction 🫠🫠