Unwholesomeness of Relationships

[@HillsideHermitage]

For those who might wonder about the requirements for a layman to become a Sotapanna, here is the passage that explains it: "Then The Lord talked a progressive talk to the householder Anathapindika, that is to say, talk on giving, on moral habit, on rebirth. He explained the peril, the futility, the depravity of sensuality, and the advantage on renouncing sensual pleasures. When the Lord knew that the mind of the householder Anathapindika was ready, malleable, devoid of hindrances, uplifted, pleased, then he explained to him that teaching on Dhamma which the awakened ones have themselves discovered: suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, the way leading out suffering. And as a clean cloth without black specks will easily take the dye, even so as he was sitting on that very seat, Dhamma vision, dustless, stainless, arose in the householder Anathapindika: whatever has a nature to arise, all that has a nature to cease. " - Vinayapitaka, Khandaka (Cullavaga), 16. Sayanasana So, contrary to a somewhat popular belief, laypeople are not exempt from being taught the peril of sensuality and the value of sense restraint. That is, those laypeople that actually want to practice the Dhamma (i.e. obtain the Right view.) And as the passage above shows, they need to be taught the value and necessity of sense restraint BEFORE they can understand the Four Noble Truths. And only if they understand that value that their mind will become malleable and free from hindrances, which in return can provide the basis for the right insight into the Dhamma. Thus, for those who want to practice the Dhamma, laypeople or monks, sense restraint and abandoning sensuality is not optional. AFTER a person obtains the Right view on the basis of their proper restraint, then that person might be satisfied with this accomplishment and choose to not practice the Dhamma further in this life, but instead, look after their family and support the Sangha, as Anathapindika did. That's how accomplished laypeople that are mentioned in the Suttas continued to live their household lives without abandoning sensuality completely (i.e. they were contented with their achievement and were not practicing the Dhamma further). Those who did decide to make a further effort would have then undertaken celibacy and more proper forms of sense restraint. (Which is why they were able to become Anagamis in a household setting). If, however, a layperson wants to achieve Arahantship, even the celibate, restrained household life must be taken further.

[@JuanaVallSerra]

Hillside Hermitage Ajahn, should the one-before-last paragraph read “... understand that value *then* their mind...”?

[@mumblerocks77]

Hillside Hermitage how can you be devoid of the hindrances at such an early stage? Does it mean temporarily?

[@luvsuneja]

@@mumblerocks77 Exactly! Clear seeing (Vipassana) requires you to be devoid of hindrances.

[@pannavaddhi6573]

Thanks a lot for this. As a fully ordained senior bhikkhu you don't seem to be attached to your monastic status in the sense of 'higher, better, further' than 'just the lower 8 ones' and apparently not even to your status as a 'highly ordained male human' but you have the focus on what it's really about, namely form follows function. That's great ! Highly appreciated !

[@cliffmilbrun2803]

@@mumblerocks77 may I. the arahant is the destroyer of hinderances. So the buddha having the miracle of instruction instructed anathapindika in such a way that he temporarily suspended the hindrances in his mind then taught him the dhamma. But even before the hindrances were suspended he taught the peril of sensuality. But also anathapindika had to be willing to listen with self transparency and truth in he first place or he wouldn't been able to receive the dhamma in first place.

[@cynshim673]

❤ the pet 🐕 is lucky to be around dhamma talks 😊

[@SriLestari-px9lg]

The dog is so sweet.

[@albertonandasilo]

I am living in Madrid, here due to the coronavirus, I have been at home for approximately 24 days, except 3 times that I went out very quickly to buy some food. I am in a flat of approximately 35 MTS, I try to be doing nothing, except observing my mind, reading Dhamma, yoga, cooking, in short, the basics. But throughout the day there are moments that I cannot bear the internal pressure, and I read the news, I speak with someone etc ..I can see the causes of doing it, shake the mind, create harmful conditions, I see it, but although sometimes I get it, sometimes it let me drag. I hope at some point to see the Dhamma so clearly that it allows me to overcome temptations. Thanks for your videos help me in that goal . May all beings be free from suffering.

[@huanghuang9815]

5:44 "Even if u live withdrawn from relationship, if u cultivate relationship mentally and wish for it or refuse to give it up, you are living in company"

[@Tony-yw4ns]

Great dharma 😊

[@dassavilokantara439]

🙏🏼sadhu, bhante👌🏼 ye ca saddhammagaruno vihaṃsu viharanti ca te ve dhamme virūhanti snehānvayamivosadhā ti 🧘‍♂️

[@sumedhaindika4512]

Ahjan sadu you are very kind for all animals .you r have good heart i can feel budu saranai.

[@kabkay4646]

First of all THANK YOU very much for making a video on the topic I asked, this helped clear a lot of things. Bhante mentions on 19:35 "If a lay person gives up dependancy on company, lust, relationships, sensuality, then Dhamma applies to you". Until what extent does he mean giving up dependancy on company and relationships? Because most laypeople work and live in a society, one always has to have some sort of relationship with their co-workers, neighbors, family members (parents mainly)...etc. Thank you. It would be great to have more videos on these topics since I think this is a grey area where most dhamma practitioners misunderstand.

[@HillsideHermitage]

Up to the extent necessary for the Right view. What that extent is can only be known in hindsight. Having to relate to people is not the same as having/needing a relationship with them. Giving up the INTERNAL DEPENDENCY on people is what one should strive for, regardless of whether you have to interact and meet others on a daily basis.

[@catotheyounger879]

What if we want to cultivate non-desire and the absence of lust, but partially driven by our fear of other people rather than the goal of being free from suffering?

[@HillsideHermitage]

That's fine. Especially because fear of anything is fundamentally the fear of suffering.

[@acgracia0220]

@@HillsideHermitage and couldn't that be a form of aversion?

[@luvsuneja]

AC G J It could also be Hiri Otappa which is a virtue.

[@aliciamontero7061]

@@luvsuneja Thanks.

[@Ikelaces]

Bhante, Wonderful video, thanks for posting. I have a question regarding responsibility and the five hinderances The way to take responsibility for sensual desire and anger seems clear - the only way for these to manifest is through intentions either toward or away from any part of my experience. Wherever that intention is present, the possibility for that intention to not be present is also there, so I am responsible for either choosing to welcome that intention or not. However, I am less clear about the remaining three. How can I properly start understanding and taking responsibility for them? Is sloth an aversion to effort? Is restlessness a kind of delighting in unnecessary effort? Is doubt a kind of uncertainty/unclarity in regard to content that I am responsible for engaging it? Finally, are doubt, sensual desire, anger, and restlessness the hinderances the same as the fetters? Much gratitude for all your work. Your videos have been an outstanding resource, especially during the excellent practice opportunity that is the pandemic.

[@HillsideHermitage]

"Is sloth an aversion to effort?" - Yes. "Is restlessness a kind of delighting in the unnecessary effort?" -Yes. It can also be rooted in needing things to do out of FEAR of boredom for example. "Is doubt a kind of uncertainty/unclarity in regard to content that I am responsible for engaging it?" -Pretty much. "Finally, are doubt, sensual desire, anger, and restlessness the hindrances the same as the fetters?" -No. Hindrances are manifestations/results of fetters, that in return if unchecked and unengaged from feed and maintain those fetters.

[@atozdhamma4248]

I think you can practice Dhamma as a lay person as far as oobserving a moment of impermanence is all about. It was said at middle of talk that the criteria is to practice it, whether a monk or a lay person. I was confused at the beginning though. Solitude is a state of mind. One can train mind with practicing Dhamma at each and every moment as far as possible to be solitude in mind, while even among a big crowd, Buddha said that too. Otherwise, people must be ordained to be solitude and practice Dhamma, that is not the interpretation of this talk. People may get it wrong if listen only the first half and give up practicing as a lay person. If we take Visaka, Anatha Pindika characters, they were already Sothapanna but stil were lay preson. Even Visaka had too many kids, she ccould not have kids without intimacy. Yes, you will never be able fully liberated but you will definitely know you are in the path. That is the key. Day to day you are reaching out the end. I reckon ordain can come after fully realising the current practice is not the end specially as a lay person. You definitely involve with "Asrawa" which is the moments of relationships but recognizing they are the "Asrawa" to get rid of. Day to day you are realising this will not be the end. If one can make that decision upfront, that is definitely be the best anyway.

[@des5166]

thank you for discussing this great topic. I just have one question hope you can shed some light. In Buddha's time, Visaka and Ane Pidu Situ had attained sotapatthi while being in relationships. I find it contradictory to what is discussed here. thanks and may triple gem bless you.

[@sanjayabr]

What they are talking about is that if you want to achieve being an Arahant. If the Goal is Arahant, then the relationships are a hindrance to the journey. Vishaka was only Sothapanna and was not seeking towards wanting to become Arahant. Hope this helps somewhat. 🙏🏼

[@9tiesimonsomething]

Amazing videos thank you ! Interestingly related to the non-reaction of even the blow of a stone, shouldn't a well-practicing samana also keep those same rules, if someone were to not hurt with sticks and stones but pleasure with massages and baths? Just a thought. May you kindly be well (8

[@lawanyawijesekara]

Thanks 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 Bhante for this talk. Where does a person’s relationship/ company with the parents fall into in this spectrum? Is it something maintained out of duty?

[@HillsideHermitage]

It depends on the individual's motivation behind their relationship. If it's done out of PURE duty, one will not be emotionally bound by it.

[@sumedhaindika4512]

Hi sadu this moment how you find the food .theruwan saranai.

[@hariharry391]

🙏

[@aaronmichaelseckman]

Are you aware of any noble ones who lost their attainments due to returning to household life?

[@Emperorerror]

The only thing that seems strange to me here is that the Buddha himself had kids. Which obvious means he must have had an intimate relationship. But maybe that was before he was enlightened and he just became an absentee father. But that also seems questionable, for obvious reasons

[@AmbaPuri-1]

But how does seeking external solitude prevents or destroy the liability for lust and desire ? It's not always possible to control one's external solitude and the apparent absence of lust and hatred might only be due to the absence of external stimuli and therefore a delusional achievement . Some amount of exposure might be a good reality check and training....? Real solitude is internal... We could be in a crowd and self contained and we can be alone and preocupied with others. If we have to be with others and lust arises can't we apply the awareness , see the danger of it and not delighting in it or acting out of it anyway ?

[@florianlau6377]

At ~8:29 you say that the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower have Right View without realizing the fruit of it. In what way is that statement to be understood? As I understand it, neither of those has understood dependent origination and thus cannot be Noble Ones.

[@HillsideHermitage]

Understanding PS means understanding the way out of suffering. It doesn't necessarily mean understanding the terminology and elaborate description of PS. Both Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower come under what the Buddha called "ariyasavaka", so yes, they are the very beginning of the Noble ones. Practically speaking, it means they have been doing the right type of work and enduring things on the right level without acting out of them or justifying them, they just haven't become fully self aware of that fact ("fruits"). They will become so though, before they die, or at the moment of their death, according to the Buddha.

[@SA-ww1ge]

It’s the only game in town in the ordinary world.

[@pathfinder_strider]

17:57 xD

[@Lipinki.luzyckie]

cute

[@albertonandasilo]

Thanks for the teachings! There are different levels of achievement and what one should practice to achieve the "one-returner" or "nirvana", but for to be a sotapana is not essential. In the suttas there are some householders who reached that state. It is good to encourage them to put more energy into practice, to develop understanding, but the good thing is that people continue always with their practice and study, and perhaps with experience they decide to put more energy. It is not black or white, people should always practice Dhamma even if it is little, because at least they will get some benefit and they will generate less suffering for themselves and others. Sometimes the teaching monks can set very high goals that can discourage the lay practitioner and not feel understood. I may be wrong, it is my perception. Anyway, this video is very useful for me, it puts the truth before my eyes, although not all of us are prepared to see it Thank you

[@HillsideHermitage]

Sure, it's not black and white AFTER sotapatti. Before that very much is. One cannot think one can practice the Dhamma without knowing what that Dhamma is. And according to the Buddha that knowledge begins with the Right View and not before it. It is not good to encourage people to put more effort in WHATEVER they might think the practice is. It is good to encourage them in sense restraint and to realize for themselves accurately what the practice is, and then they can choose whether to follow it or not. People will get the benefit and not generate suffering for themselves or others if they don't engage with sensuality, ill will and distraction, regardless of what they think the Dhamma is. This is exactly why we keep highlighting the point of sense restraint, regardless of what a person's view on the Dhamma might be. Thus, whether you heed our explanation of the Dhamma that is put on this channel or not, the instruction to practice restraint should always be adhered to regardless. As the Buddha said, even if one practices sense restraint in pain for the rest of his life, without getting any form of understanding, he is still headed for higher realms because he adhered to abstaining from sensuality. It is still better for him. So it is slightly ironic that it is implied that we should not specifically encourage sense restraint so that people can practice at least a tiny bit of the Dhamma, while at the same time Suttas make it clear that there is no Dhamma WHATSOEVER without PRIOR establishment of the sense restraint. It's not about monks setting high standards or not, it's about the Buddha himself setting that up as a basic requirement and a threshold. Even to laypeople who want to practice. The fact that people don't seem to know this very thing is actually more symptomatic of the contemporary standards being too low, and not too high. This, however, should not come as a surprise, given that it has been over two and a half millennia since the Teacher has passed away. Those who are not prepared to see this are the ones who are not prepared to practice the Dhamma, simply by not accepting that which the Buddha himself said a necessary basis for the Dhamma is. So instead of trying to lower the standards below the threshold that the Buddha himself outlined as the lowest (so to not put people off), we instead try to clarify the standards that would inspire people to recognize them as very much REACHABLE and then elevate themselves to them. That is a win win for those who make the effort, because even if they don't get the Right view they will reap the immeasurable benefit and merit of having lived a life of sense restraint. It's a double win if they also get to understand the Four Noble Truths on account of it, like Anathapindika did.

[@albertonandasilo]

I mean that not everything is black or white, because a lay person can have SOME DEGREE of right vision, see their suffering and their causes, see Anicca, Anatta and dukkha, and apply some degree of renunciation, but still not have sufficient degree, or have internalized the teachings enough to not ever letting oneself be carried away by sensory desires, he who lives in a great city is much more exposed than he who lives in the country. For this reason, I believe that it is good to teach what should be taught, of course, but to understand the context in which many lay people lives, and to encourage and trust that their practice will mature to overcome these temptations. With Metta. Thanks

[@karrimzz]

@@albertonandasilo To put it bluntly if that's your standard, then might as well practice other religion. Buddhism is different because there is Right View, three characteristics. To practice Buddhism is to strive to see these mark of ultimate reality as the foundation of practice.

[@aliciamontero7061]

@@karrimzz Which religion are practicing the people who offer food to the monks everyday in Thailand, Sri Lanka... and who support Buddhist monasteries in the West and who sponsor Kathina every year and sponsor publishing books that are given for free? Just asking. _/ _

[@luvsuneja]

Alberto Nandasilo I’m so happy you are trying your best. Please continue to put in the effort. I wish you the best and hope you reach Sotapatti in this very life if you are not there already. In my experience, being on retreat with a realized / partially realized teacher can make a world of a difference. The second best thing is communicating electronically like you are doing now.

[@sadasivam123]

Your notion of christian contemplation is subject to critique. God is an abstract context just as the 40 meditation objects...what is primary... and what you attend to... is the secondary. So 8ts the same as buddhism in a sense. However its vagueness and the idea of love can be critiqued which you are completely right about. But then again all texts and methods and things to do are false in some sense.

[@fruitionapt]

This is an interesting topic. I was thinking the same. A Christian contemplative will recollect the presence of God (the greater context) whereas the Buddhist will recollect the presence of say, the body or the breath (more specific). God is practically like this abstraction (as you say) for the context which could be experienced as the body or the earth, or cosmos (anything more fundamental than you). So the difference is the abstraction. But if you think of it, anything in language is an abstraction. “God”is a more diffuse, a more generalized peripheral recollection. On a similar thread, when I see people in the midst of development in the dhamma I see a kind of “love” for the dhamma (non verbal). Similar kind, to when I observe a Christian who is in the process of development with Christ consciousness. At least that’s what I understand.

[@sumedhaindika4512]

Ahjan sadu you are very kind for all animals .you r have good heart i can feel budu saranai.