Ups & Downs From Star Trek: The Next Generation 6.20 - The Chase

Now that we know more about The Progenitors, let's revisit the episode that gave inspiration to Discovery's 5th and finale season. Here's Seán with the Ups & Downs!
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[@annieworroll4373]

I liked that the Romulan was the one to reach out at the end. DISCO S5 tied in to that very well with his scientist being the one to kick subsequent events off.

[@ChrundleTGreat]

I LOVE the Romulan story arc that has taken place in Picard and Discovery! The fact that Vulcans and Romulans reunified has made the Trek universe more interesting.

[@lovipoekimo176]

Right? Like, it was quite unexpected and bittersweet in a way

[@KaygeeAllah]

There were quite a few instances with the Romulans that showed their depth. Definitely one of the best, yet criminally underused species. Maybe that’s why I like them so much.

[@MultiMackD]

I'd like to think in hindsight, that final exchange between Picard and the Romulan commander was essentially the TNG version of "You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

[@sureshmukhi2316]

Balance of Terror

[@jpwphoenix1701]

I love that we actually get the Cardassians, Klingons and Romulans together in one episode (and one place later!). Also, gotta love the use of the Cardassian transporter effect from DS9 here in TNG.

[@harrysarai3947]

have we ever had a Romulan transporter beam. i feel like we haven't, and it should be green.

[@LAJohn]

One of my favorite and underrated episodes of TNG… Watching the Romulan Captain reaching out to Picard and being humbled after a monumental discovery, gave me new hope.

[@trekon2023]

I remember Marina complaining about a fan complaint coming in during TNG's airing about there being too many aliens that looked human. Being supportive of actors who often have difficulty getting jobs and properly paid even when they do get the job, she replied with that's because actors are human shaped. I feel like the writer's took that comment to heart and cleverly wrote this episode about the progenitors to make it tie in. See, that's what good writing looks like. You don't ignore canon. You fill in the gaps with credible explanations.

[@nomercyinc6783]

actors dont deserve getting crazy paychecks for making fictional shit. theres nothing ground breaking about acting. theres nothing live saving about acting. theres no real importance to movies and tv. people need meaningful jobs and art isnt that

[@krikorajemian8524]

Watching this episode when it first aired, I remember being surprised they jammed this whole story into a single episode; it felt like it should have been a two-parter at least. Glad they eventually revisited it.

[@samzick6301]

I like that in Season 7s The Gambit, Picard chooses to go by the alias "Galen"

[@megalictis9002]

Good catch!

[@matrickjohnson6246]

I often quote the alien bartender saying "He was vaporized". Always liked his delivery, complete with hand motions.

[@Ghostie.]

Cancelling Lower Decks was a crime and someone should be jailed for it.

[@ShonnDaylee]

It was cancelled? Finally.

[@Suisfonia]

Why should they be jailed? It was a garbage show, much like Picard and Discovery, for that matter and am hoping *they* get cancelled later as well. Writers need to start making actual storylines, rather than openly pushing garbage.

[@antonnurwald5700]

It feels like it ended before it began.

[@KnightRaymund]

@@Suisfonia it is a fantastic show

[@nigelmurphy6761]

​@@KnightRaymundHere here👍

[@infowarriorone]

Classic Next Gen. Love these retro ups and downs.

[@bridge6649]

In case you didn't notice: Gul Ocett ist played by Linda Thorson. Some may remember her as Tara King, Emma Peels successor as partner of John Steed (Patrick Macnee) in the sixth season of "The Avengers".

[@davidjames1389]

Please keep doing these TNG ups and downs! Such a great trip down memory lane.

[@matthewwilkes6162]

I love these, but I think you've gotten a bit off track with the downs. Galen's response and the destruction of the biosphere are bad, but they work in the context of the episode. I actually think they're both good things to have in, as they make it feel more fleshed out, demonstrating the complex motivations others have.

[@bongmuon]

Theory on the sculpture being treated badly in the movie. It was such a valuable artifact that Picard donated it to a museum but kept a replicated copy on the ship. That being an object he can replicate from a replicator any time so he just throws it to the side in that scene

[@DawnDavidson]

We can certainly hope!

[@RogbodgeVideo]

I stated the exact same theory in the entry for this episode in my 'Explaining Errors in Star Trek' wiki, which I will update based on info from this vid. Nice to see so many people thinking alike!

[@lesm6389]

Put another way, "The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself."

[@DaveCummings76]

In my head, an offshoot of the progenitors ended up becoming the Founders

[@willmfrank]

"The surface of the Earth is the shore of the cosmic ocean. On this shore we have learned most of what we know. Recently we've waded a little way out -- maybe ankle-deep -- and the water seems inviting. Some part of our being knows: This is where we came from; we long to return."

[@jeremykemp1544]

@@willmfrank I heard that in his voice and could see him standing there in that tan jacket of his without even closing my eyes

[@herbertholland924]

The thing that I always liked about this episode, is that it can be used to explain how all these various alien races, can successfully create hybrid offspring.

[@doorofnight87]

I've always really loved this episode. That final discussion with the Romulan Commander, and the line "you are a testament not to our greatness, but to our existence" gives me chills.

[@kenzieduckmoo]

[Still discussing how the ship spore-jumped at the end of Discovery, in Dolphin]

[@DawnDavidson]

😂

[@AndrewD8Red]

I loved the interaction between Picard and the Romulan commander, right off the back of him and Bev lamenting that nobody else appreciated how significant it was. Then he call Picard, says he's on his way home and says: "Maybe we are not so different... In our hopes... Our fears... Well then perhaps; one day."

[@andrewschwarz3405]

Progenitors and/or Preservers... It's a thread woven throughout both canon Trek and Beta canon. Let us not forget Lorca's whirlwind tour for Burnam of the mycelial network... when he says "the Moons of Andoria!..." and we get a flash of a Preserver obelisk?!? And again STO... which tied them together directly during the Tzenkethi adventures and we see a Chase-style Preserver/Progenitor in front of a TOS-style Preserve obelisk.

[@SSPerfectChaosRCT]

The Preservers/Progenitors arc in STO was the Breen and the Deferi. The Tzenkethi arc led into the Hur'q return. But the Iconians blew up the planet with the Preservers/Progenitors on them.

[@jgkloosterman]

I like to think the artifact that Picard tosses aside in Generations was a copy and the original was safe in a museum or institute. The Enterprise isn’t always the safest place for priceless artifacts (how many times was the big E destroyed over the years?)

[@MikefromTexas1]

James Callis is so underutilized as an actor. He was my pick over Ruffalo for the MCUs Dr Banner.

[@KatsuRyu]

My head cannon is because Picard scanned the poster for "CAPT Picard day" so it would be saved, he scanned the Kurlan naiskos as well, which would have allowed him to repair it (as he had a 3D image of what it looked like before they landed the saucer section)

[@Sashowindfeather]

I love how Sean says Chewsday :P

[@randalscott7224]

Brilliant episode! Yet, like yourself, Sean, I felt shock at the wilful destruction of an entire planetary ecosystem as I watched the episode originally. And disquiet at how it was trivialised and forgotten about in the rest of the story. Not even a Wesley moment like his reaction to the destruction of the Yamato with the loss of life that entailed.

[@randalscott7224]

"Ecocide"?

[@joermnyc]

I took Data’s explination of how he is built to be him telling the Klingon, “You just tried to headbutt the Enterprise.”😂

[@korypedersen9768]

Fantastic history lesson on Troy and all that nastiness, thank you!

[@peggy011]

Thank you for the Retro Ups & Downs. Please keep them coming.

[@jcullifer]

Biscuit recipe = Titanium Up!

[@alexischristou3266]

I enjoyed the final season but honestly I felt like overall Discovery was a let down and will be remembered for a handful of things. This last season though Moll's character i found was badly written as I felt like almost every time she did something she achieved it, escaping a fully secured starship when she and L'ak were captured or when she practically took over the entire Breen "clan" with little to know effort felt a little preposterous to me.

[@peterburghart3059]

I love all the ups and downs. Thank you TrekCulture!

[@TrekCulture]

Our pleasure!

[@UnicornClone]

I have always thought that "The Chase" should have been a two part episode.

[@poloponysk158]

this episode was also an incredible retcon that rationalized just why "humanoid" aliens were so very common in the Trek universe. Aside from the fact that production budgets limited to aliens just being body paint, weird noses, hair, and ears. It would not be until cgi advanced enough that we finally saw non-humanoid aliens in live action productions.

[@gschroep]

14:25 “by you powers combined” 😂😂

[@ArtistryBranson]

I couldn't agree more, Seán. Well done sir.

[@Cmdr1962]

The Enterprise-D had a special Slinky Drive that could get you there "when you needed to be there." "Set course. Warp factor NOW. Enga- oh, we're there."

[@willmfrank]

...Powered by handwavium and shielded with plot armour.

[@MadScientist512]

A HUGE down for Picard basically looking like a clueless and petty bureaucrat for knowingly letting Galen go on a dangerous mission taking 6 months in a slow defenceless shuttle because he won't divert the Enterprise for something clearly important and right up his alley, but then he does the whole thing anyway in apparently a matter of days! The writers really fd that part, even if they wanted Galens' death to be an incentive they could've done it any number of ways that didn't make Picard look bad.

[@TheEvox81]

Fun fact to the pseudo-spoiler alert at the beginning of this episode... It was sometime around 2012 or 2013 that I saw this episode for the first time. I had seen basically everything else back in the 90s, but somehow this one slipped through. So it is possible someone would need a spoiler alert.

[@Trialwolf]

Of course Tracy is there, Riker has to continue his "Chase".

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

"The Chase" was inspired by Carl Sagan's novel Contact, in which clues to the nature of the universe are discovered in a long calculation of π (pi).

[@slpmtlfavs8797]

Not upping the recipe for biscuits quip is a missed occasion.

[@magical_catgirl]

The Progenitors evolved into the Changelings and forgot their history over billions of years.

[@genyosha16]

Would it be possible to create a new playlist of just the retro up and downs?

[@followerofjulian1652]

This could have been good, but it suffers from an overabundance of sanctimony. “A little learning is a dang'rous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, And drinking largely sobers us again.” Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism (1711)

[@krys1888]

Picard tossing the artefact in Generations is one of those Mandela Effect things! Watch it back, he never tosses it, he places it back down again. Someone pointed this out to me recently because even I used to think he tossed it! I still hope someone got it back for him before they warped out of orbit though, but I think that goes for everyone's belongings!

[@trekon2023]

I try to maintain a low social media profile to maintain my productivity in life. Thus, this is my only social media account. I vote to have Ups/Downs on Enterprise episodes. I think Dominic and Connor are available for interviews as well if you want them to comment along.

[@williamtsutherland8240]

Now, Seán, I think you owe "The Chase" a re-watch and at least one less 'Down'. The 'Down was about how the Enterprise could get places 'so fast', or words to that effect. In the 1st scene with Professor Galen he tells Picard that his travels will take '3 months to perhaps a year. . . but with a Starship, a matter of weeks.' Then at the end of the episode we are told that the Enterprise needs maintenance due to it's recent use of all that High Warping, So, that tells me that it could go many places, very fast.

[@MicahSps]

I remember fan theories saying that since it was Salome Jens, that they were the race the Changelings evolved from (when they were confined to a single shape before evolving).

[@5argetech56]

It just might be a recipe for biscuits!!

[@jacoblind5390]

I would love to see a long trek or mini series involving the 24th century scientists who originally found the progenitors tech.

[@kenwynn3871]

Gul Ocett was one of the best cardassians we ever got, really defining performance. She's calculating and singular in her orders. The way she will cooperate while it aligns with her own agenda then immediately betray everyone as and when it suits, just text book cardassian, brilliantly done, and really went a long way in world building and in distinguishing their characteristics and setting them apart from previous well established antagonists.

[@knarf247]

Very apropos choice. Nicely done

[@adamgoss3638]

The thing about Schleeman, or however you spell his name - was this known at the time the episode was written and the scriptwriter didn't do their homework, or was this something that came to light afterward?

[@Raziel657]

I love you guys and always watch pretty much everything you put out, and I will continue to, but just as a small bit of feedback: Not angry or anything, it's just that I haven't seen Discovery S5 yet and seeing the thumbnails for the ups and downs (which I will consume when I get around to watching it) so far hasn't really spoiled anything to me - However I feel like this thumbnail inadvertently has, as that would have been a nice surprise to learn in real time. Thanks :)

[@davidanderson4091]

There was a quite a big plot hole in this episode. If Professor Galen was such an important scientist in the Federation, and itself, the Federation being committed to their mission of exploration or discovery, surely the Professor could have made an application to have Picard AND Enterprise assist him with his research.

[@marilynsobel7414]

Schliemann was really a treasure hunter and not an archaeologist (it was sometimes hard to tell the difference in those days). Schliemann paid workers at the Troy site to bring him finds and thus many important finds are useless because it is unclear where they came from. Curiously, very few people at the time believed Troy was real (even though it was visited by Alexander the Great, among others). Schliemann was determined to prove Troy was real and used readily available information (e.g., Homer's Iliad) to find it. It was so unfortunate that such an important find was left in the hands of a treasure hunter and publicity hound, but it is also true the real archaeologists of the day just couldn't be bothered. Certainly no real archaeologist would want to compare himself to Schliemann. Although a bad guy, I'm not sure Schliemann deserves to be blamed for the Nazi adoption of Aryan symbology. You'd think the Star Trek writers would have selected Howard Carter, since there was a very popular King Tut exhibit only a few years before this episode.

[@kenwynn3871]

Wait, the enterprise is still sitting in orbit surrounded by pretty annoyed Romulans, cardassians, and genocidal klingons, and picard is sat in his cabin sipping tea? Not on the bridge?? 😂

[@joshualieberman2265]

dog bark at 1:46. You cant hide your dogs from me sir.

[@kenwynn3871]

I can't help but feel that name dropping Schliemann specifically might have been intentional by the writers to show how much Galen is blinded by his history making career defining discovery, and how to achieve it and the ramifications of it are secondary, he's at the point of obsession here. Still perhaps not the best choice, but i think its a bit too specific not to have been on purpose as an insight where Galen is headed with this, and where others were also willing to go for it too.

[@maximilianlipp7246]

I always thought that yes, that much faster is the Enterprise-D in relation to shuttles at that time...

[@MeNoOther]

Wonder if a Lt Picard from Tapestry, would just go on this adventure?

[@ChrundleTGreat]

t the time, “the Chase” wasn’t very well received. I liked that Discovery used this storyline for season 5. It made this a better story in retrospect

[@KingfisherTalkingPictures]

I agree. It wasn’t that great, and seemed like just slapping on a reason why most trek aliens are played by human actors. Discovery did a decent job

[@mathewjgard]

Extra for temporal observations: How about the fact that Galen had 23rd Century LCARS displays in his shuttle?

[@7JANEWAY]

Cool background!!! You should have this background all the time!!! LLAP!!!

[@neilgodwin6531]

Under the Cardassian prosthetics was Linda Thorson, a sadly underrated actress. She had the near impossible job of succeeding Honor Blackman and (Dame) Diana Rigg in the Avengers, opposite Patrick McNee. No, they weren't superheroes. Thorson's run was largely missed, coming between Rigg and Joanna Lumley. Have to say, though, not many "serious" actors would put up with prosthetics to appear in a sci-fi show

[@wingedlead]

Why are there cetacians in the intro to temporal observations? Time dolphins?

[@Tuskin38]

Spoiler alert for Discovery in the video, but put a spoiler right in the thumbnail. Good job

[@DawnDavidson]

Yeah. Thumbnails can really spoil these sorts of things. You aren’t the only one disappointed!

[@silverscreenmike]

Since this was an episode about archeology thank you for giving a detailed accounting of the atrocities that were committed by Heinrich Schliemann in the name of discovery. His name should be vilified not honored in the annals of scientific history.

[@CHASEMARC]

11:35 - we do not know what happened to the klingon captain AFTER Picard sent his Logs to Starfleet - for all we know the whole ship was hunted down by the Klingon High Command and all aboard her was destroyed

[@sphinx3r]

The primary take-away from this episode is how a single episode of TNG can be so much better than all of season 5 of Discovery. It really shows the massive dip in quality of storytelling over the past 30 years.

[@revenire2913]

🙄

[@KaygeeAllah]

Unfortunately, I can’t disagree with this.

[@DawnDavidson]

There were some good aspects of Discovery (eg, greater diversity of relationships and genders), but yeah, it was pretty disappointing in even more ways.

[@charliewaters5289]

Can't believe the show has been OFF the air for 30 years.

[@Fr33dan]

I didn't know this was happening. What a pleasent surprise!

[@TheMadTube]

Thank you, Seán! The Progenitors and Preservers are related, possibly the latter is a direct descendant. I will die on this elevated, slightly dimensionally adjacent platform.

[@Gery1214]

This is the most meaningful, heartfelt salutation I have heard. Good Job!! LLAP

[@Nedski42YT]

I liked how the lady Cardassian wore blue "Spoon" shadow. It reminds me of all that nasty blue eye shadow that was very popular in the 1980's and 1990's. How come Cardassian females never wore it in any other episode? Or did they?

[@williamomalley6060]

They reach the shuttle so quickly because the shuttle has a maximum warp speed of warp 6 while Enterprise is considerably faster. Also I thought the Uridian ship exploded due to Romulan interference, either because they'd attacked just before the Enterprise arrived or sabotage.

[@Alex_Meyer_1311]

Thank you for the research and the history lesson. That was interesting! 👍🏼

[@davidrohde2636]

Picard in Generations was looking for his family photo album! An artefact or family memory's hmmm not a hard choice artefact gives on floor! Yea quick as a whip!

[@Cali-707-ica]

Do an Ups and Downs of Voyager, Year of Hell!

[@starhawke380]

If anyone is wondering why you chose this episode, they havent been paying ANY attention...

[@GregDeocampoogle]

the artifact in the enterprise d crash was a replica.

[@AnaAna-vg4ne]

Data is light saber resistant. that's an UP from me :)

[@ktlam195512]

I remember Norman Lloyd from the TV series St Elsewhere.

[@QBCPerdition]

Im not on social media, other than KZbin. But may I place a vote for a retro ups and downs here? (Everyone else, feel free to voice votes here, too.) There are some episodes we all expect to get the RUAD treatment, like In The Pale Moonlight, Far Across The Stars, Inner Light, etc. But I'd like to vote for Living Witness from Voyager. There are definitely some downs to voice, but the episode itself is one of my favorites.

[@unexpectedbagel6164]

Dishonor on Nu’Daq’s targ. …if he has one.

[@TheKeithterry]

The ship seemed to blow up from the phaser fire because the Romulans were covering their tracks.

[@baystated]

Beware the expectations by mentors for their pet-pupils to follow in their footsteps. Lockstep. Picard does it to Wesley about a future in Star Fleet without any self awareness or irony.

[@iamliberator1101]

Thora Thompson played the carcassonne was Tara King in The Avengers as well as stint as love interest for Tom King snr

[@lawrencekb5zzb551]

How did the Discovery Spore jump at the end of 5-10? Who was the Spore Navigator?

[@sriramg5029]

End of 5-10 was further into the future... probably like 50 years more...so in that time...next gen spore drive would have come into the picture....

[@DawnDavidson]

@@sriramg5029an interesting possibility!

[@ChristopherG1990]

“Remember us…remember…that we once lived”

[@jacara1981]

I want a up and down on the episode that data learns to dream

[@megalictis9002]

The Progenitors correct the Vulcan IDIC: it's not Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations, it's Infinite Diversification in Inevitable Cooperation. But also "F__k the Yridians!"

[@chasethevioletsun9996]

It doesn't make sense the Progenitors and Preservers would be the same species. The Preservers moved Native Americans off Earth as recently as 50,000 years ago, where the Discovery Progenitor states they went extinct "billions" of years ago. Could they have done it with time wankery with the Temple? Maybe, but it seems more likely they would be different species.

[@DawnDavidson]

Preservers could be an offshoot descendant branch species, maybe? Speculating.

[@Tim.Stotelmeyer]

Same issue with the Iconians and their gateways Sean mentioned in the Ups and Downs for Discovery S5-E10. The Iconians only died out "recently" and not billions of year ago.

[@bengeldinger]

I have a down for the down about speed...type 7 shuttlecraft have a low warp engine they wouldn't go as fast as a Starfleet ship

[@danielpaquet3963]

I think at that the way things were with the Klingon and Federatiion at the time They would have hung Newdak when he returned to Q'nos just to show that they don't condone that sort of thing.

[@adampsyreal]

This single episode seems better than the entire final season of Discovery.

[@Sephiroth144]

The Trilithium resin just made it uninhabitable for humans; Cardassians would be able to inhabit the world... which means it wouldn't wipe out all life, just limit habitability for a few select species

[@cjt217]

For the reader of this comment - if you don't listen to the TrekCulture podcast, you're doing it wrong ❤ it's not too late to make that adjustment!

[@franciscoruiz7389]

I don't seem to understand why Picard doesn't just take Galen to where he needs to go.

[@Seal0626]

The way _Picard_ fleshed out Maurice Picard is nothing to praise. It was a whitewash. The man was a known abuser from TNG lore, and we saw him isolate his mentally ill wife from any sort of help or support, withhold treatment, and lock her in a room when she was in crisis; but that’s all okay, because she was crazy! What was he supposed to do, _not_ control and manipulate every aspect of her existence? It was disgusting and irresponsible in the extreme.

[@msromantini]

Even at the time this episode came out, people were not super happy with Schliemann, if I remember from my school days.