Urethane vs. Short Pin -

Welcome back to the Radical Rundown!
In this discussion, Phil & Andrew talk about why Urethane is so popular on tour instead of short-pin reactive balls. On the flip side, they talk about why short-pin reactives might be best for you during league and which type of balls you should choose when going with that layout.
As always, post your comments and questions! We hope to talk about your topics in the future!
#WOWThatsRadical #RadicalRevolution

[@mariansowinski8967]

"It hurts my voice to say urethane" LOL LOL

[@Kawboy65]

This is the best video I have seen on the topic yet.

[@Kawboy65]

I have always been reluctant to drill a short pin layout because I am a lower-rev player, so I always felt that I needed the stronger core position to make up for my lack of power. Earlier this year, I drilled a 2nd Conspiracy Theory with the short pin layout (90 x 2 1/4" x 45) on the Radical drill sheet. The ball works extremely well on a typical league shot. I can "roll" this ball and go straight up the outside, which is what I wanted this ball to do. Interestingly, the ball has a ton of versatility as well. I can move left, get around the side of the ball, and still hook the ball if I want to. I've thrown two 300's already this season with it, one going "straight" and one "hooking it". Personally, I will always have a short pin layout in my bag.

[@atbsigma]

This was the explanation I needed for why symmetric balls weren’t recommended for being drilled with a 2” pin. AA and Phil, you guys are knocking these out of the park!

[@bigboots6114]

i used a short pin 1 1/2 on a dark code and shot 757 and 740 back to back nights. love when i can play straighter to the pocket. thanks for all you guys do for the little guy

[@TheFreakout74]

I have a Ebonite Destiny drilled 1 3/8 pin to pap and it is a game changer when the lanes are mess or are hooking an obnoxious amount. Guess I still have a higher rev rate because I can get it to corner relatively well on most house shots but it really shines on flatter conditions really smoothes the break point and opens up the end of the pattern.

[@SirKibblestein]

I can listen to these guys talk forever

[@TheBigfoot1999]

I put a 2" pin on a Cash several years ago...has never really worked out...except on the very rare occasion. It has one of the most violent reactions I get. It's somewhat early, reads the mids pretty good and then comes off the spot so hard, it forces me deeper than most of my pin up stuff. I'm only a 350ish rev rate and pretty much matched bowler.

[@phillipdencklau1485]

Thank you for keeping MoMondays active

[@richardsherrer423]

I put a short pin on my urethane and it solved a lot of patterns

[@chriskelly509]

Hopefully they do a video on urethane for house shots with a video, so many people use them on league...

[@hamboner2]

Urethane is a matter of opinion. I remember back when reactive balls used to screw up the shot for urethane balls by drying it out so much. Most people threw urethane. Now, urethane balls are said to screw it up for reactive balls by creating too much carry down. Most people throw reactive. So, which is it? Personally, I would take 35ft of medium volume banana oil run 5 to 5, and a yellow dot, but that’s me, and I’m old. Hard to mess that up.

[@traviskirk3834]

I got a web tour solid from my dad with a 1 inch pin layout for him and I loved it now I have a quantum leap and 2 original forest green quantums with the 3-3/8 layout for them and I am a speed dominant lefty up the boards low revs and on broken down lane oil in my league on old wood lanes I love the 1 inch pins and short pins but I like 2 urethane hammer balls the magenta urethane hammer from overseas the older version and the faball enterprise blue pearl hammer urethane.

[@cardinalcopium5088]

High friction surface + low volume + high humidity = I'm gonna throw urethane until the backends tame down. Usually half a game tops.

[@jesusiseverything2174]

Concerning slower speed/lower rev bowlers using a short pin on symmetrical balls, Throbot made the Bonus Pearl and Intel Pearl SE look good for these types of bowlers with short pins.

[@bobgomavitz1330]

What cover stock do you prefer for the Asym ball? Stroker style Med Low speed. Thanks again

[@Albert33173]

Quick question… would a bigger symmetric core at about .248 be ok? I’ve been pretty successful with my short pin idol pro lately. Like the line it gives me and the little progressions through the adjustments for most nights. Just redrilled my Redemption Hybrid to short pin, but can’t find the same consistency so far. Any suggestions on another asymm?

[@dansbowling8879]

So have an old Kingpin solid that I don't use anymore. Wondering if it might be an option to plug it and drill it short pin? I'm a 300 RPM slightly speed dominant lefty that struggles with over/under. Most of my equipment is pearls with 5.5" pin-pap. Just ordered an Idol Helios but not sure how to lay it out. Wasn't planning on getting it but won it at a tournament. My league THS is on the shorter drier side. The tournaments I bowl are 43' 1.75:1 THS so pretty long and flat. Went to another house Saturday with a longer higher volume THS and even my Altered Reality was over/under. I also have a Conspiracy solid but want to keep that as is for when conditions are right for it. The Kingpin is layed out pretty much the same so don't need both so thinking the Kingpin may be a good one to try the short pin on?

[@joshuaarreola5550]

Would a short pin work good on a closer pearl? I’m having trouble deciding what layout to put on it. I already have a incognito pearl and counter attack pearl that I’m using. Need something on that closer pearl to go with these two.

[@nordattack]

I use urethane exclusively on house shots. The other night everyone on my pair only threw urethane. The result was I had to move my feet 1 1/2 boards outside, that's the worse it got. Otherwise a very consistent shot. Urethane preserved the pattern.

[@grandmasteryoda9893]

i have a closer pearl and it work great with short pin

[@jayveebee1076]

What would be considered low volume vs. higher volume?

[@williekelty5601]

Yeah, I got Urathane because I wanted to see what I could do with it. Like you said, NOT for Me...I'm a 195avg in leagues so not too bad, but revs between 300-400. Purple is my color, but I throw my Purple Hammer to trying to have fun messing around -and it's a mess (LOL). It will go to my Son he's a 2 hander with revs and his speed is getting up there now. ;) Thanks as always, Great Stuff. Missing Mo.

[@sriley064]

Our centre's best 2 hander can't even use the purple hammer,my purple hammer is the ball of the gods

[@timothybrooks5921]

What if you use a asymmetrical pin down shirt pin down ball?

[@NWoodLane]

Geez, urethane is anathema to Phil.

[@sriley064]

Wonder if he feels.....double crossed?

[@Kawboy65]

The short pin concept really illustrates why it is important to have an accurate PAP measurement. Imagine thinking you are drilling a 1 1/2" short pin layout but your measurement is off 2", and you end up at max flair 😂 Maybe this is why a lot of people try short pin layouts but don't like them?

[@1337chunkypuff]

yes with a urthane ball u dont have to know excatly the pap u can put a strong layout and get the same similar motion but urthane will carry down the oil more as a problem so its very cruical to get the correct pap and get the drilling as close as you can for short pin go to close ball might not flare get to far away get too much flare its a very tricky balancing act on short pins where on a high rg layout u got a decent room

[@lumberlikwidator8863]

League bowler here, using symmetrical balls only. I’m not gonna throw the Radical Spy. Plastic is for beginners and for spares. It’s urethane for me baby, all the way.

[@erici9025]

Imagine if the video showed AA or throwbot comparing the two balls they just talked about on the lanes. #radical

[@jhonviel7381]

the fact that urethane is staying around should let ball makers and usbc that something is wrong with modern balls and oil patterns. anyway im just a league bowler dont mind me...

[@jimnewton5904]

look for lower and lower volume in house patterns, it is a fixed expense just like the light bill than can be lowered by putting down less dressing house really is not concerned with your average just the bottom line... your job to score on what they put out thus the "Spy" ....

[@denmanfite3156]

The fact everyone goes to urethane in order to remove the oil problem from the lane, and keeping in mind that oil is there to control scoring, means it should be banned. Just a simple conclusion.

[@hackprefect]

I've got 2 short pin symmetricals that I use specifically at one house in my area. Had to do syms, because those were the only ones I had available in my collection to try, as they were an experiment at the time. I love the short pin layout because it really helps me control the wet/dry at this house, since they use 0 units of oil outside of the 7 board.

[@Fluffyguy958]

What type of idiot designed that pattern

[@denmanfite3156]

Mechanic at my center said the USBC requires a minimum amount of oil be on all boards. So either they're wrong, intentionally misleading, or not legal in their oil placement.

[@hackprefect]

@@denmanfite3156 That rule was suspended by USBC, I believe at the same time the weight hole rule went into effect. It was announced in 2019. So, unfortunately, that mechanic is just out of date in terms of his knowledge.

[@hackprefect]

@@Fluffyguy958 The owner, to save pennies on his oil costs. Even the manager of that center hates it, especially because he typically plays the outside, but it's out of his hands.

[@Fluffyguy958]

@@hackprefect honestly in my opinion I'd be taking my business somewhere else. I've seen leagues move mid season.

[@Brian_B300]

“You don’t really need urethane in league”… Phil, this could be a great selling shirt 🤔

[@mikiefitzgerald7113]

I drill mine at 1 inch pin. I personally like it alot better than urethane on the short. Also keep alot of surface on mine

[@Fejix87]

I've used several short pin drilled bowling balls (assym and symmetric). I'm a 2 hander with high ball speed and revs. I've found the short pin symmetrics to be very over under and hard to trust. One shot they flip off the back and the next three hit half pocket. Pearl cover short pins have been the bane of my existence when I try them, and generally only work right with specific lane conditions that I don't see 95% of the time. Again though I find them hard to trust because of how inconsistent they react. I have done two short pin solid assymmetrics (zing solid and hell raiser blaze) and they behave the best out of all the short pins I have tried. Threw my only 800 with the zing, but again it's a ball I can only use about 10% of the time because it doesn't match up well on most house shots and doesn't read sport shots very well. Some days on house shots it burns up and rolls 60 feet, other days it has a very strong backend and works well up the track. Either way when I move in past 20 and try to get it out it can't make the angle back. I want to try the hell raiser blaze on sport shots because the cover is much stronger and I think it would do well on flatter conditions. One odd thing I wanted to mention about short pin balls is that for some reason they tend to work very well when throwing a backup ball (which I practice a lot as a 2 hander). They tend to have very strong downlane motion for some reason that I don't understand the physics of.

[@PapaPorpoise247]

Fam, you and me both. Short pin symms get wild for me and the Zing Hybrid has been the best (only) short pin that I have liked so far. I have drilled a Stellar with a 2.5” pin and it is incredible! It doesn’t get over-under and it is a beauty on sport shots.

[@jayveebee1076]

Perhaps have a left handed layout? Seeing how rh layout works for backup ball? Interesting concept, yes?

[@SirKibblestein]

I’ve always been confused on how the layout affects my motion. Andrew mentioned that if the pin is drilled 2 inches away from my PAP, then it will roll sooner? Or is it going to hook less violently?? I’m confused alreDy

[@drewagardy]

They also said it determines on your rev rate speed cover and core.

[@Kawboy65]

Here is a very simple illustration of what is going on: Imagine an empty beer can (or whatever) sitting on your table, with a short straw sticking out of the top. This straw will represent the “pin”, marking the top of the can. Lay the can on its side. Push the can, and it will roll smoothly off of the table. This is because the can is rolling in a stable position. Now place the can upright, and try to roll it end over end. The can will flop around violently until it reaches its side, then will roll smoothly the rest of the way. Now imagine a bowling ball that is poured around the can (now the core). The “flopping around” of the core is what can be tuned/controlled by the drilling layout. In the short pin layout, the “beer can core” in our example is laying almost on its side from the start, therefore taking the “violent flopping” out of the core and placing it in a smoother, stable position. This is what will give the ball a smoother, more controllable reaction on the lane.

[@SirKibblestein]

@@Kawboy65 wow this is amazing! Thank you! Do you have an analogy for asyms now? 😅

[@Kawboy65]

@@SirKibblestein Sure. Take that same beer can and slap a wad of chewing gum on the side of it. Your “beer can core” is now asymmetrical. The bigger the wad of gum, the stronger the mass bias in your core. Roll the can on its side. Even though it is in its “stable” position, you can now see an additional “force” creating a level of imbalance that wasn’t there with the symmetrical core. Now imagine being able to fine-tune that reaction by “placing” the wad of gum where you want via the drilling layout. Set the can upright on the table with the wad of gum facing you. Imagine it rolling in a ball, end over end, with the wad of gum “chasing” itself. Now, rotate the can to where the wad of gum is facing to the side (can still upright) but the gum is now rotating along the side, while the core is still rolling end over end. Can you see how that slight, “additional imbalance” can make a difference? You can rotate that wad of gum around to anywhere you want via the layout. So when you drill the ball, the layout essentially “rotates” the core to put the pin where you want, then it “twists” the core to put the mass bias where you want it. Remember that this is a very subtle change that puts that last little bit of “fine-tuning” into your ball reaction. If you are in the wrong ball with the wrong surface for the condition you are bowling on, then the layout doesn’t matter.

[@SirKibblestein]

@@Kawboy65 thank you so much! That makes so much more sense to me now! Seriously life-changing!

[@gregkelly2971]

just curious solid, pearl or hybrid asym? which one would be the best option for a short pin for the average bowler?

[@amleto300]

Depends on the ball. solid/pearl/hybrid are not magical categories that have their own unique properties across all balls.

[@gregkelly2971]

Yes but a majority of the time Pearl balls hook later solid balls hook earlier and hybrid balls go eirher way or somewhere in the middle. Not always but in general

[@amleto300]

@@gregkelly2971 but the actual cover stock is more important than pearl/hyb/solid. So if you're interested in length you would have been better to ask about cover stocks...

[@davidchamberlain5146]

@@gregkelly2971 I have the same question. Appears amleto300 doesn't know either since he suggested you ask about coverstock formulation. Phil said use a strong(er) asym....reality, physix, jackal, something like that when I hear strong. Generally speaking if your lower rev, tweener or stroker what's the better option for a 2 inch pin?

[@Kawboy65]

The surface is the most important factor in ball motion. You'd be amazed at the number of people that refuse to put surface on a pearl because "pearls are supposed to be shiny", therein rendering a ball as a "dud" without putting in the effort to make it work. If you take the solid and pearl version of the same ball, (Conspiracy Solid and Conspiracy Pearl for example) drill them the same way, then sand the pearl and polish the solid, the reactions WILL flip-flop. I have done this enough times with different balls to know it is true.

[@Perry2186]

from what i understand as a southpaw Urethane is what to use cus it doesnt affect your team as much

[@denmanfite3156]

Other way around. Urethane tears up the oil and can ruin break points for same-handed bowlers going in the same area of the lane. I've watched 1 guy with urethane drop every players average for the game by 10+ pins.

[@scottythompson940]

Cool video talk to tech

[@russellgilbert3453]

Volume and ratio of the pattern.

[@alexanderbreen4010]

I think Jesper Svennson would disagree on which Urethane ball is best… he makes the Pitch Black and Fast Pitch look pretty good

[@TheFreakout74]

Imagine how much better he would be with a purple hammer

[@alexanderbreen4010]

@@TheFreakout74 idk, I’m a storm guy myself so I might be biased, but even though the Purple Hammer is a great ball, I don’t know if Jesper would like it because of the 600 rpms he puts on the ball, I think the Purple is a little stronger than both the Pitch Black and Fast pitch but I could be wrong

[@bigboots6114]

@@alexanderbreen4010 UC3 is out so i am sure he will try it

[@a01036344277]

1

[@elr2141979]

Urethane is nothing new it's been around since the 80s so I don't know why I Phil seems to cringe every time he hears the word. The reason why I love to use urethane is because of the predictability and the shape you get from it. and that's why with the modern core technology with these older type cover stocks creates a motion that still very needed in today's game.

[@1337chunkypuff]

i think he cringes mostly cause radical markets to league bowlers i dont think for pro/tournment players hes cringing just the market he targets is that so he doesnt belive they need urethane where a short pin would work nicely for a good majority of house looking for a similar look ive seen alot of urthane at my house center in league they dont know how to use them and its drags oil down i tried my first short pin last night on a old plugged ball just to see how it liked it and damn it blew me away how good it was i have no issue with urthane cause most who use it play up 10 anyway and i play inside of them

[@toms5795]

I hope league bowlers are listening to Andrew, you don’t need urethane in league…

[@nascar8rc]

This older guy cringed at urethane 😂 Because he knows! Radical don’t have anything! I bought a Radical Bowling Ball…. And won’t buy another!!! Worthless ball in my bag! Go Hammer! All Ihave to say!

[@jaywalsh1329]

l love my results+, it is violent enough for recovery, but smooth roll into the pocket, and it still hits like a truck. But I can see a lower rev bowling never getting them to turn the corner.

[@bigboots6114]

i have a purple tank which hits harder than the new purple hammers