Urethane vs Short Pin Reactive -

It's #MoMonday!
This week we take an excerpt from Mo's seminar where he talks about Urethane vs. Short Pin Reactives. How many times have you bowled with Urethane and found your ball reaction going straighter and straighter? There's a few reasons for that. Why do you see a number of pros on TV using urethane with success? There's a few reasons for that as well.

[@corbinesterak7837]

RIP mo the legend. I learn so much from these videos

[@russellgilbert3453]

Thank you, Mo! I've been telling people who "attempt" to throw urethane in league this same thing.

[@nordattack]

I have a few problems with this. 1. I use urethane in my 4 person leagues on house shots. 8 players on a pair. I am the only one using urethane. Their resin balls suck all the oil off the lane and as the set goes on my urethane ball reaction get's better and better and better. I start rolling up 7 board and by the third game I have paralleled left until I am going up second arrow and still striking. And the bonus of my urethane ball is I can stay straight to the pocket the whole time and never have to throw away from the pocket. Also I never see over/under wet/dry effects. 2. On heavy oil my resin balls, even at very low grits, will not hook early enough to provide carry. Because they are resin they skid too far before they roll and hit light or weakly until the lane breaks down. By comparison my strong urethane ball will just walk through the flood straight to the pocket and blast the pins apart. I have to use urethane on heavier fresh oil because resin wont hook enough. 3. The urethane reaction is smooth, controlled and straight and allows the best part of my game, my accuracy, to excel.

[@jvmiller1995]

But I think the point is that not everyone has enough revs to throw one and and by short pin drilling a resin ball you can get a similar effect with out the negatives. Did you ever think how much better your team mates could bowl if you was not creating all that carry down? It does not sound like you have every tried to use a short pin drill on a resin ball so it is hard to be judgmental on what works best. I not saying you are wrong if it works for you. But old dogs can learn new tricks. I am up for anything to help my game. But when I am on league I want my team to do good too.

[@nordattack]

@@jvmiller1995 First off: I have low revs, very, very low revs, only 145 rpms. So high revs are certainly not necessary for urethane balls. Did the pros in the 80's have high revs? Nope. Yet they used urethane exclusively and effectively. Second: The idea that on a house shot urethane is creating carrrydown and messing up other players shots is silly. I never see carrydown when I use urethane in a league environment if the other players are using resin. The opposite is true, their sponge balls suck all the oil off the lanes making it more difficult rather than better for everyone. You want to see real carrydown, play on 32' Wolf when "everyone" is using urethane! Within one game the lanes go from insane flip and hook to long and smooth. Now that is real carrydown. Third: I have used short pin reactive and even pin in axis reactive. Not even slightly like urethane. Resin balls with short pins go "longer" and snap "more" in the back. That is not a urethane look. Urethane is early hook, then set and then a long roll to the pocket. Resin will never be able to to do that no matter what layout is on it. Resin is designed to skid and conserve the reaction for the "back of the lane" and that is why short pin makes resin skid "even longer" and snap even more. Check out Video #83 on my channel. It shows a very strong resin ball with strong early layout and with short pin. Watch the difference. The strong layout produces a reaction that is closer to urethane while the short pin makes the ball go very long and snap. Same model ball and surface, just different layouts. Now compare both of these reactions to Video #132 with a Pitch Black. This is the urethane reaction. Early and smooth with zero snap in the back.

[@jvmiller1995]

@@nordattack I was just agreeing some of the points he made that made since. If that is mostly all you bowled with it stands to reason you will do better with it. I can kind of understand the argument of resin balls sucking oil off the lane. But It is easier to adjust to light oil on the top end of the lane but when your ball hits oil on the backend end when turning and it slides out is it hard to be consistent. Resin has draw backs too. They need to be heated an clean property evert so many games for one. I would say what ever you hit the best with is what you should use. As long as it is a approved ball you are okay. I can adjust okay to most lanes. I am a medium rev guy and have a nice hook but not massive. I like the short pin layout for a short pattern.

[@nordattack]

@@jvmiller1995 Right, whatever ball works best for "you" that is the ball you should use. Forget what everyone else says and ignore any looks they give you. They complain that urethane creates carrydown and messes up their resin shot, I would say their resin balls strip oil off the lane and make my urethane read too early. See? No one is happy unless they ignore what everyone else is doing and just focus on what works best for them. Play your "own game" and enjoy it. Embrace what "you" do. Then you will become a great bowler.

[@Mainzer74]

Love reading the comments made by people trying to refute this. They have no evidence other than what they think is happening but they know more than Mo. It is the reason why the only problem with bowling is the bowlers.

[@chriskelly509]

Exactly. What I see most is people using the wrong ball for their skill level. Everyone wants what the pros use.

[@jamesbills5998]

You said urethane balls loose hook more quickly because "they fill up with oil" then right after this statement you say that Urethane causes carry down because "they absorb ZERO oil" Which Is It ? I always thought that urethane did not absorb oil. (If that Is truly the case why would the ball loose hook quicker) Wiping the ball off should keep It fairly fresh ?

[@rtsbowling323]

I believe he means the surface fills up with oil, keeping it on as a barrier between the surface of the ball and the surface of the lane.

[@peterbrown329]

Hi Mo, this looks like an expert out of a longer video, is the fill length video available somewhere??

[@CoachScott61]

Full length video is available on You Tube. Its about an hour.

[@RadicalBowling]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZO4ZoWZosaVbqc Link for full seminar

[@chriskelly509]

(Would like to see a full 30min discussion by Mo on this topic)I have a Brunswick Twist I use for dry or short pattern conditions. I dont use it a lot but when I do its usually in the 3rd game when the oil is gone. Some facilities I bowl are stingy with the oil... I find I bowl on lighter conditions than heavy.

[@chriskelly509]

Lots of older guys and ladies use the Brunswick Rhino. It's a great league ball. I've converted some older guys who use old urathane balls to the Rhino.

[@wesleysteed2603]

Mo, I’m a two handed no thumb bowler. On one particular house shots and most tournaments, I have trouble trying to keep the ball on the right side. I was suggested a ball with a short pin. Do you agree? Also do you suggest an asymmetrical or symmetrical ball? Thanks

[@clarkydm]

Mo does Radical even make a urethane, so your not selling any right? When I switched to urethane as my go to because I have a low track, with a high rev to speed ratio my average went way up. First the nature pearl then the hammer purple Pearl. I've never found a reactive I can keep as consistently in the pocket as I can urethane. I am dubious of the short pin layout. The cover stock is still what hits the lane. And because I roll early reactive is my enemy.

[@jefferydaniels6717]

Is there a core size / cover type limit for short pins? I have been successful with some and not with others.

[@RadicalBowling]

Mo recommends using stronger core/covers when using short pins so you have the benefit of the better core and more aggressive coverstock. Using too weak of a ball will often make the ball too weak overall. (Counter Attacks)

[@darrennelson9420]

@radicalbowling I am a two hander (about 375 rpm) using a Pitch Black urethane on league nights. It looks like in other comments you recommend Counter Attack or Beyond Ridiculous short pin layouts. Would they be similar to a urethane shape drilled that way? Or is there another ball you would recommend to replace the urethane..

[@RadicalBowling]

Counter Attack Solid with a short pin layout.

[@darrennelson9420]

@@RadicalBowling thanks. Any shops you recommend in Philly area?

[@larryverble4476]

@@darrennelson9420 Reale's Pro Shop 3075 Holme ave Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Dennis Reale is one of the best in the industry.

[@silversilentrd]

Urethane is not just for defense. I understand how useful and sometimes better a short pin reactive can be, but you can totally play offense with urethane. I've used a Pitch Black, Black Urethane, and Purple Pearl Urethane to shoot some big scores the last 4 years. In fact, pretty much the only time I use urethane is when it gives me the best chance to score.

[@teamx-bladz]

Urethane is awesome if you have 500+ rpms and want to play defense against your opponents. Even better when your opponents are those people that whine, can’t adjust, and mentally crumble when someone else is throwing urethane on the pair. If you guys had a product as good as the purple hammer, I would consider buying it!

[@Tendedfatback]

nstig8 I hear the complaints all the time. I love my blue hammer

[@Bunghole35]

Mo The Guru

[@garywest2250]

RIP, legend! #momonday

[@iamrokmusik]

I don’t get how a urethane ball doesn’t absorb oil but at the same time gets oil soaked and loses hook.

[@rkw221]

urethane is no more "destructive" to an oil pattern than resin. I mwan if resin walks on water to the degree it doesn't affect the pattern, why do players end up standing two lanes to the left & chucking, ih excuse me, ahem, "lofting" the ball over the channel? It's about adjusting...tgen again the difference between bowlers & puppies is puppies eventually stop whining. Seriously the good players adjust to whatever ball and lane conditions are in front of them.

[@adamatkins1466]

The only problem I have with the short pin layout is when the lanes start to go through transition you have to put it away.

[@stued151able]

I use mine all 3 league games. I move less and the lane read stays very consistent for me.

[@adamatkins1466]

@@stued151able Every bowling style is different

[@peterbrown329]

Yeah, short pins are only good when keeping your angles down.. as you transition in, I have to go to stronger layouts to get the ball to recover and drive through the pins. But I have the same issue with urethane, as others with reactive break the lanes down and i move in, i start to lose my carry, so have to go to a stronger ball..

[@Mainzer74]

Bowling is about adjusting not about standing in one spot for 3 games.

[@adamatkins1466]

@@Mainzer74 No huh thanks for the brief summary of bowling. I have very low tilt and low rotation. Which means my ball reads the lane relatively early. When I'm using a short pin layout and the lanes go through transition I have to put it away because when I move the ball it's just over under

[@Rick_Schott]

But, but... “modern urethane balls with flaring cores don’t carry down.” and “use a shammy and wipe your urethane after every shot, it removes all of the oil.” If I had a nickel for every time I’d heard that crap, I’d have a quantity of nickels.

[@darylw792]

Great info. When I used Black Hammers in the late 80's and early 90's on synthetic lanes I was always moving right every frame or two. When I found a new Black Hammer a couple years ago I had a Motion Hole layout put on it and never had the carry down issue with it because the ball had a good flare. After the three games I would always clean and de-oil the ball so it was fresh for the next league set. It would appear that if one wants to use urethane and keep the carry down issue to a minimum the ball needs to have the potential to flare, and than regularly de-oil the ball. Right or wrong that is my personal observation.

[@nordattack]

If I am using modern urethane (Purple, Fever, Tactic, Widow, True Motion) from the right, even zero flare urethane, as long as there are resin players in my area of the lane, there is never an issue with carrydown. They strip off any oil I push down. I can either stay put for all three games, or move my foot slightly left as the set goes on. The only time I have an issue with carrydown is if I am bowling all alone in practice, or if no resin balls are going down the lane in league and it is just a bunch of house ball chuckers. I would imagine if everyone was only using urethane that there would be a carrydown issue, but I never see it in actual league as long as their are resin players. And actually some resin players like when I bowl on their line because they say my urethane ball helps keep the pattern stable. I paint an oil stripe and they take it off and I paint it and they take it off and so on for a calm sustained reaction.

[@peterbrown329]

Yeah, I see the same thing.. if no one else is in my area with the purple hammer I love it!! But when the no-handers use strong balls they kill my shot!!

[@jefferyboring4410]

Yep the reactive balls keep the carry down soaked up. And u gotta wipe wipe wipe the ball Every every shot good then life is good.

[@justmakingthistoreply5085]

So he says Urethane doesn’t absorb oil but you have to de-oil the ball? Why is that?

[@darylw792]

@@justmakingthistoreply5085 Well did not Mo say that the urethane fills up with oil quickly in the video at time mark 1:25+, and that the pros need to have several of the same urethane balls drilled the same way in an 8 game block to compensate for when the urethane ball stops hooking after about 1.5 games? So apparently there is some oil uptake that is enough to effect the performance of the urethane ball. Thus the need to de-oil on a regular basis.

[@elr2141979]

So do you think radical will make a urethane ball?

[@RadicalBowling]

No. Phil has stated multiple times that the market is saturated with urethane balls (no pun intended)

[@PinoyBowlerGS92]

At least this help me before I’ll buy the Brunswick U Motion (Urethane)

[@tira478]

i pick urethene still

[@russellgilbert3453]

When Mo says urethane balls destroy oil patterns, he means they destroy the friction zone on the backend by causing carrydown.

[@wbrown310]

Purple hammer, push oil into the back end followed up by Kingpin Max, soak up the fronts and you will kill the lanes. Dirty pool

[@exesemas]

I love Mo, but a couple of inaccuracies here : 1. Reactive resin balls come back with most of their oil on them still. Not much of it manages to get absorbed in the ...what?...10-20 seconds it takes for the ball to get back? So if you wipe it right AFTER your shot, and not right before your next shot, you get 90% of the oil off the ball at least. I do this with mine and it shows. Because when i decided to de-oil a couple, after a LOT of games, there was very little oil in them. 2. I can agree that wiping the oil of a urethane, doesn't remove ALL the oil off of it, but it does remove plenty. So it's not like you throw a ball that has visible oil on it. Also there are situations where you can resurface the ball by hand between games, so you can keep your urethane exactly the same. Now on tournaments like the PBA or regionals or wherever the rules are that you can only resurface the ball between blocks, then you get a bit of less reaction out of your urethane. But that holds true about any ball as they shine up pretty fast anyway. The only main issue of interest between this comparison is hitting angle and power. Not pattern breakdown (as others mentioned, 1 urethane per 5 resin balls, won't destroy a pattern.

[@jhrsjhrs]

Oil carrydown is a myth. On PBA telecasts that use blue oil, logic would tell you that there would be blue oil down by the pins if there was oil carrying down, but don't you don't see any blue oil at the end of the lane. Throw a ball on fresh oil and look at your oil track on the ball... it's a spiral, which would tell you that the ball transitions as it goes into it's roll, which would tell you that the surface of the ball that contacts the lane in the heads is not the same part of the ball that contacts the lane towards the pins, which would tell you that any oil that is picked up on the ball in the front part of the lane is not being deposited on the back part of the lane. The fact that a ball even comes back with an oil ring would tell you that the oil isn't being left behind on the lanes, because if it was there wouldn't be an oil ring on the ball. The only way you'd get oil carrydown is if you threw a straight ball with an end-over-end roll. Like I said, oil carrydown is a myth.

[@ryanbradleyrankin]

Its also a much higher concentration. So you wont see the blue dye. Its too dispersed at the end of the pattern. That's why the outside usually look dry while in reality the oil is less thick. That doesn't make the oil any less slick. So there is definitely carry down.

[@RadicalBowling]

It takes about 20 units of blue oil for it to be visible on TV. About 7 units in person will show a faint blue. Carry down happens regularly.

[@Rick_Schott]

Look, a nickel.

[@coltenmchenry3049]

Would a conspiracy theory be good with short pin?

[@ANG3LS21]

Colten McHenry I need this question answer

[@RadicalBowling]

Yes, absolutely. Adjust the surface from there.

[@srspeed240]

Lol. This is ridiculous. In league a urethane ball will hook fine for all three games. I use urethane each league night with no issue. Some small adjustments maybe but that’s what makes a good bowler. Pros may switch to newer urethanes maybe, but on a dang house shot it will last just fine. Assuming you have some revs. If you don’t you shouldn’t be using urethane to begin with. His comment about telling them to buy three balls is just plain ignorant. Some guys just hate urethane balls. Mo is obviously one. Plus he doesn’t sell them so he obviously not going to promote it at all. This would be a better presentation left to a company that makes both balls. Very biased speech and absolutely useless.

[@RadicalBowling]

"Assuming you have some revs" You just made Mo's point, which was stated in the beginning. For the average league bowler, they would benefit a great deal more using a short pin reactive resin.

[@jefferyboring4410]

Come on with this. Mo doesn’t wanna sell balls that last forever! Make a 2 piece urethane with a good core mo! U can wipe the oil off of urethane it’s a lot of work every shot but it doesn’t oil soak! And he’s giving move #s for urethane vs reactive not a mix! If 3 ppl on league throw urethane theirs no carry down cuz the other reactive balls soak it up. I have 4 faball s I throw them more than my 2 new radicals and score better that’s a fact! And have more area

[@Mainzer74]

What scientific evidence do you have? Do you have any information other than your word?

[@shoobyboy]

Haha urethane bad. Tell that to Jesper Svensson or Jacob Butruff, two of the most aggressive bowlers out there

[@chrisfentress13]

Just imagine if they were right handed bowlers no one's ball would have good reaction lol

[@shoobyboy]

@@chrisfentress13 I'm a right handed bowler and I have no issues. Neither do lots of professionals.

[@playdawg2008]

Urethane Balls are getting hard weight blocks and IMHO its made better for 2 Handers or hard crankers like me.

[@playdawg2008]

I meant better weight blocks! Remember the Stingray C?

[@CurtisL8.3066]

He did mention the guys using urethane effectively were 500rpm guys, and those two fit the bill nicely. Plus they are lefties which hardly counts. I’ve very recently switched to short pin reactive on house conditions and it lets me play it very hard and straight, which is conducive to scoring on house patterns. Still lug the pitch black and the purple hammer to every tournament, when things get messy on the left, they are great options to grind on lower scoring conditions

[@charlesharred5841]

Your full of crap if you don't think a resin Ball will soak up oil, this is why I question alot of his rants.

[@Mainzer74]

Wow listen again