NWC INS Lecture Series -- Lecture 2 "Who Lost the Vietnam War?"

[@ChrisPierreBacon]

I could listen to Dr. Paine all day long.

[@WilliamLeacy-b4v]

Me as well

[@GrubyTolek]

Likewise

[@BogdanMMI]

me too !!

[@petersuson7958]

I fully agree

[@jcmerlob746]

Smart People wear the same clothes everyday

[@seoulcycle]

This is the best explanation of how grand strategy versus operational warfare works that I have seen on KZbin.

[@gianniformica8235]

Stumbled on her now I devour everything... She's so great.

[@surogat33]

same here

[@Traisas]

just discovered. third lecture today 👍

[@urbaniv]

Me too

[@Stinger913]

Ignoring her content I noticed she’s such a good speaker as a presenter too. Commands room and is moving at a good pace for each slide. I def take too long per slide 😂

[@MrTuryn]

but hteres no conclusion, just talk about the point

[@MrVinni123]

Dr. Paine is American excellence. She needs to be everywhere, explaining everything.

[@newtonw1008]

Competency drift..she knows her area of competence very well. Maybe not others

[@pagarb]

This is he most brilliant, insightful and honest presentation on the strategy and tactics at the highest level of this war. She puts into a clear context the dynamics behind it all, she's not only brilliant but also very courageous in her comments and has no compunction about "saying it as it was". This is in sharp contrast to all the commentaries intended is justify an unjustifiable position by trying to put a "nice face" mask on a pretty rotten corpse.and pretend it was a noble lost cause, like the sacrifice the Spartans made at Thermopylae. This wasn't an existential threat to the West, it was a exercise in grand and not very honest politicizing.

[@jackharle1251]

LBJ lost the Vietnam war after he had JFK assassinated. Kennedy stated Johnson would not be his 2nd term VP. Suddenly JFK was gone and the Texas Hillbilly put us fulltime into Vietnam.

[@alex-ff1mp]

it was an existential threat and is still now. Is about the liberty - ideas, speak and free trade. All this is translating in reducing the famine and reducing the percentage of poor people in the world.

[@marcob.7801]

I think you are deluded by this disingenuous folderol! Nothing more than an extension of "there is a red under every bed" so that the greedy, fat cat, corrupt legislature AND military industrial complex could indulge profits!

[@bobstine3785]

​@@jackharle1251don't be crazy.

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

​​@@alex-ff1mp lol hard to believe anyone can be that thick

[@Toto-no3mv]

Two comments: First, Paine's central theme here is that it didn't really matter if we (US) won or lost militarily in Vietnam, we won if we weakened the USSR by causing problems in the Soviet-China alliance, and forcing the USSR to spend beyond their means. That is actually believeable because after the war we pretty much forgot about SE Asia, and the military defeat had very little effect geostrategically. But who formulated this cold and cynical strategy? Johnson wanted very much to win the war itself, and from what I have read his cabinet was also motivated by patriotism and idealism, and really started to have doubts when they realized the horrendous costs. Was it a Nixon/Kissinger thing? Second, the main effect of the war for the US, to which the geostrategic planners seemed completely oblivious, was domestic and cultural in nature. It needlessly split the country and created an entire generation cynical of government, and I think that has greatly weakened our democracy. I grew up during the war, and it has taken me years of living abroad to truly appreciate the blessings of the American system.

[@Mikethemerciless11]

Well, the good news is that there isn't such a thing as democracy or republics. So there was nothing to weaken, except the myth of democracy.

[@dominicpacoe5439]

Great points

[@MrHeavy466]

@@Mikethemerciless11 Why do you think democracies and republics don't exist?

[@Mikethemerciless11]

@@MrHeavy466 For countless reasons, all of which are obvious. For one, you cannot independently verify the results of any election. Even if government would let you, you probably would not be able to prove how anyone voted unless you took the time to ask people. Secondly, government doesn't act on whatever voters want. It doesn't care. It often will enact anything that voters have absolutely no say about, and such laws are permanent, and inviolable. In the US, voters have absolutely zero say about taxes. You'd think that's something that's pretty important for voters to be locked out of. The masters of the country would say, "No, see, you voted, or at least your great-great-grandparents did for the 16th Amendment." Nobody ever voted for that, except a very few, select people. Nobody voted for anything like Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid, or Obamacare, all of which are unconstitutional (but the Constitution is, also, a fraud, so there's that), and citizens cannot opt out. How do you change a law? Well, there's how Civics 101 teaches, and then there's how the Oligarchs do it, which they've been doing since well before the Revolution (which most Americans didn't want either). All they do is bribe public officials, through intermediaries of course. Consider that there is no minimum number of voters necessary to certify any election (if they were independently verifiable to begin with). What do you think would happen if, in this upcoming election, less than 50% of the electorate voted? Nothing. In 1788, only 1.7% of the electorate voted, the majority of which elected electors who voted for George Washington. Gee, that looks like the tyranny of the involved to me. Did we vote for any of the wars we went into? At least the Athenians voted to go to war against Sparta in the Pelopennesean War. Well, not really, since the options were already selected by the Archons, and they only did it when they were certain they'd get the vote they wanted. Now, I don't mind the fact that there's a government ruling my life, but let's not be so mendacious about our importance.

[@MrHeavy466]

@@Mikethemerciless11 Wow, I didn't expect an actual response. Thanks.

[@bobk1845]

With brains like this around how do we wind up with presidential candidates like the ones we got?? Please.

[@skullsaintdead]

Probably, a lack of education around the importance of democracy & decreasing faith in our institutions of power, in part because it benefits those on the right, who are in favour of small-govt, and the influence of state propaganda, bringing down our faith in democracy by buying our politicians (Russia, China etc, Mr Orange and his mouthpieces). So, the majority of people drawn to power in the US are already wealthy, and that is their primary quality. Not intellect, or wisdom, as it might be more so in less commercalised parliamentary democracies (e.g. Australia, NZ, Nordics). The more people see the rot, the more they hate it, don't vote, don't get involved, it gets more polarised, pollies get worse, we get worse outcomes. We're all responsible and we can fix it: get money out of politics, America.

[@Thought_Processing_]

Because it’s in the interest of the people who fund campaigns that people who are smart are not in power as they would look at the situation and say okay we need to tax, regulate and in some cases prosecute the rich.

[@trashukun3787]

Most population is stupid.

[@JD..........]

She doesn't want the job. Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy put it well. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. It is those who would be reject such a position, kicking and screaming, who should be drafted for such a position despite their reluctance.

[@MM22966]

Well, the last academic we had in the White House was Wilson. What is your opinion of him?

[@BlakeMerriam]

Prof. Sally Paine is awesome. It's as if Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg had a war loving sibling.

[@tsung1029]

I love how she casually tossed out a critical concept in Sun Tsu like this is something everyone should know.

[@Xiaengao]

She's one of the few who actually pronounce the name somewhat correctly.

[@charleskramer6189]

Hey, it's also quoted by Paulie in The Sopranos!

[@spaceburger80]

In this crowd, they all know Tsu.

[@udeychowdhury2529]

I've read about Vietnam all my life ,some of this stuff is new to me!! Great stuff

[@bboomermike2126]

I am writing this in my wife's living room in District 12 Saigon. I did 2 tours in Vietnam in the "Delta" area so I know some thing about the difference in Vietnam from 50+ years ago and now. It looks to me that communism failed on an economic level. It seems to me that the economy is much more capitalistic than communist. Not far from my wife's house is a new multi story building with a sign saying "California Fitness Center of Saigon. Saigon feels more like LA than Branson MO.

[@MM22966]

Wait, the sign actually said "Saigon"? I thought that was officially forbidden?

[@bboomermike2126]

@@MM22966 No, not forbidden. Officially it is Ho Chi Minh City but Saigon is used all the time. My wife's helmet says Saigon on it. Destination signs on the front of buses say Saigon. Many, many businesses have Saigon in the name. You never see Toyota of Ho Chi Min City but you will see Honda of Saigon. The war is over.

[@MM22966]

@@bboomermike2126 Interesting. I assumed there would be official pushback/punishment for any really public use of Saigon. Communist parties (even reformed ones, like Vietnam or China) can be very jealous of public slights to their mythos.

[@bboomermike2126]

@@MM22966 I understand you can go to jail for bad-mouthing Ho Chi Minh or old-school leaders. I did 2 tours during the "American War" and have had zero pushback.

[@KanoKaiji]

​@@MM22966vietnamese people say saigon in conversational speech instead of HCM

[@rudolphguarnacci197]

Finally, a strictly political lecture on this war, the essential ingredient that wins (or loses) a war.

[@elviejodelmar2795]

I will paraphrase Col. Aaron Bank, the Father of US Special Forces, who spoke at my graduation from the Special Forces Officer's Course in 1974. He looked out at the Combat Infantryman Badges and said, "Guys, I hate to have to tell you this, but you deserve the truth. I personally knew Ho Chi Minh. He was a lot more a nationalist than a Communist. We could have worked with him. Vietnam didn't need to happen. I wrote a letter to President Truman telling him we should support Vietnamese independence rather than back the return of French colonialism." Also, I'm not sure about the comment about the VC being completely destroyed in the TET Offensive of 1969. I got to Vietnam just afterward and stayed for 18 months. I'll be damned if I know where all those VC who kept shooting at me came from.

[@rflameng]

In 1944 the OSS sent a mission to do exactly that, under major Archimedes L. Patti. The French in Indochina were doing the Japanese's bidding and the area was backwater in the war. It was important that situation changed and that the Japanese should maintain their troops there and didn't send them to reinforce either China or the Pacific island or the Philippines. The only credible resistance forces in Indochina were the Vietnamese led by Ho Chi Mihn. The condition he put was that the US would lean on France to grant independence, and that is what the US promised. Alas, by late 1945 it was looking like the elections in France would be won by the Communists, on the strength of their effectiveness as Resistance fighters. So the French (De Gaulle) leaned on the US to support the reinstatement of French colonial rule as the French people would not support him at home if he allowed the colonial empire to be dissolved. Result, the US broke its promise to Ho and his fighters. Moreover, in 1956 it reneged on the other promise, made in Geneva, to hold a referendum on the form of government of newly "independent" Vietnam, fearing (probably correctly) that the communist nationalists would win. Instead it supported the kleptocratic Diem government of the Frens-educated catholic elite against the interests of the (South) Vietnamese peasants. And we know how it all ended. Of course, these days the US is courting its former foe Vietnam, a Socialist Republic, and a true single party autocracy with an atrocious human rights record, as a counterweight to China, the People's Republic, it too a true single party autocracy with an atrocious human rights record. How the cookie crumbles...

[@elviejodelmar2795]

@@rflameng Well documented commentary. How different would the situation be, if Ho had become the leader of a united Vietnam instead of having to give way to the radical, hardliner, Le Duan.

[@JT-rx1eo]

I read that Ho Chi Min himself wrote a letter to President Truman. Did both your Spec Forces Col. AND Ho Ci Min write letters to Truman? IIRC, Ho's letter to Truman expressed admiration for American principles in it's own fight for independence, pleaded with the USA for it's intervention in convincing France to leave, and pleaded with Truman to not be confused with this question of communism.

[@lawtonsegler1923]

She’s a national treasure.

[@dougearnest7590]

5:25 -- you're welcome

[@ianshaver8954]

I am indeed welcome.

[@chef-kiss]

Thnx

[@Ben942K]

First comment I was looking for 😭.

[@jayo3074]

Thanks

[@otomo86]

Thanks

[@freddecker2407]

As much as I have heard about the Vietnam War in my lifetime, (I was born in 1960), this lecture provides much new information I wasn't previously aware of. Thank you!

[@benwong4648]

Great emphasis on how not to win the hearts and minds of your desired allies. Unfortunately we seem to have ignored these lessons .

[@andrewthomas695]

Sadly, It seems that to rise to the top does not necessarily require the capacity to learn. Such is the sad reality of leadership in America.

[@Marc-vc1wo]

@@andrewthomas695leadership in America?? That's the reality of leadership everywhere. In fact I'd submit it's a perfect description of human nature, to ignore the past and thus have to relearn the hard lessons again, every single time.

[@ashaide]

And here I thought I knew a lot about this conflict. Was i sorely mistaken. Talk about 5D Chess. Thank you so much.

[@obriets]

I really appreciated this. For my entire life I’ve been critical of LBJ’s piecemeal air strategy. I still am fundamentally, but at least I understand his logic.

[@elirothblatt5602]

Great lecture, thank you!

[@ronaldyarrosh4457]

Thank you, Professor. By accident, I found some of your various interviews and now KZbin is presenting more and more of your stuff to me. For a long time I have been saying what you have said about the Vietnam war, which is basically that it cannot be considered a loss for the United States because it has resulted in a unified state, with which we enjoy diplomatic and commercial relations. A state which got the attention of the Chinese by saying that they might actually offer us a naval base on their coast. The Chinese stopped bothering their fishermen . They know how to maneuver. The government of the Philippines might be able to learn from them. Thanks again.

[@ortakehinfatronardolewvidurel]

It's ridiculous to suggest vietnam was anything but a loss, doesn't matter how you repaint the facts. you don't evacuate from rooftops if you won, and how things turn out after your gone is not something you can claim to have manufactured by losing.

[@KimTran-fd9pt]

Thanks so much to load these kind of programs on KZbin to share w/our family, Friends & the Communities, Yes here, She spoke the Truth, nothing but the real truth reg the Vietnam War in very brief timing but enough to know almost all the History of the South. We, over 5 million Vietnamese's people in the US & all over the world & including > 80 million other people suffering in Vietnam now, will remember forever your services and sacrifice in those 21 years (1954-1975) in protecting us and giving us all the freedom to live/choose/share... all kinds of gifts to enjoy the life of Religious/speak/love/education... From THe US & our Allies. Those lists above can never happen any more after Russia,China & North VN took over that South VN Country in 1975! Millions & Millions of VN Soldiers were killed in Concentration Camps/died in the Seas from Pirates & others... from that April 1975, to find those freedoms listed above!... Yes, how could we forgot It! In the US & all the world, if you get a chance to meet our people & their Vietnamese Communities, read our decent Magazines ..., you will see every day/week/year, any holiday... we still write/gather/organize from different kinds of South Veteran Military branches to remember all the wonderful memoirs of you all and us. The first, second, thirst... Vietnameses generations are enrolling in the different Military branches in the US to follow your heroic steps. Yes, we have been reading a lot of books/articles... written about your courage/honor/sacrifice ... We are and as always deeply appreciated for all your times in that Country. America has never been a great country and the leader of the world by filling in the moat and pulling up the drawbridge. We were never "defeated" : Absolutely not; We just gave-up! . “The War in Ukraine w/ Russia is a fight that America needs to have. It always involves sacrifice, but in the end & at the end of the sacrifice …, America will be bigger, stronger, richer and more influential in the world because we stood by our principals and stood by our friends. Semper-fi to our Fathers/Brothers: The wonderful G.I`s ...et all with all our love & admiring.

[@doxun7823]

Wow. I learned more about the strategy of the Vietnam war from this single lecture than I have from whole books on the War.

[@Pete_Veee]

This lady (Dr. Paine) is amazing!! Her passion, knowledge and the ability to transfer that knowledge on key historical, political and economic actions that impact our world in such a wonderful way to the lay person. She explains it simply yet matter of factly where it makes sense! I could listen to her everyday. She’s simply brilliant. It is my SINCERE HOPE that “people high up” listen to her assessments and heed her advice militarily… 🙏🏼🇺🇸

[@peteryeng]

fantastic. Paine did not disappoint.

[@charliesmith4072]

Ah, memories! In 1965 I got ahold of an English translation of Gen. Giap's book "People's War, People's Army". I read it and learned of what Prof. Paine called "half court tennis". I realized that the U.S. was fighting a war it had made up in its head. General Giap was fighting the real war, and for that reason we were going to lose. West Point made the book mandatory reading in 1996, only a generation late.

[@NigelDeForrest-Pearce-cv6ek]

Dr Paine is a Genius!!!!

[@kazstrankowski8721]

Very educational. Changed my opinion on the strategy behind keeping the public in the dark about the true motivation of US involvement in Vietnam

[@GeneCAu]

always always fun to listen to Dr. Paine

[@sangmoon2464]

The USA really didn't lose as a country. In fact, the Vietnam War became a catalyst in improving the US military in the long run by breaking its hubris.

[@magnaviator]

You are so wrong. Replacing citizens with mercenaries, the first step to the death of the empire. Without citizens in the armed forces that have skin in the game, US end up in stupid pointless wars that waste people and resources. Today we have an unaccountable government corrupt and bought and sold to the MIC. Take a close look, US has turned into a 3rd world banana republic.

[@spaceburger80]

“… by moderating it’s hubris.” Fixed it for you.

[@HardThrasher]

Great lecture

[@michaelk5825]

Perspective! What a breath of fresh air!

[@cmm30]

That completely changed my view of the Vietnam War on several aspects. Thank you for making this wonderful lecture available.

[@davidkleinthefamousp]

This Dr is bright and serious. I was riveted.

[@JohnnyQuach]

Isn’t her name SARAH ? Not sally

[@watch1949]

It’s Sarah everywhere I’ve encountered her lectures and Amazon books. Accuracy Matters.

[@IrishCaesar]

Sally is short for Sarah in some English speaking cultures

[@JT-rx1eo]

Her wiki page has "Sally"listed as a nickname, so I assume it's her preferred/accepted nickname. Like mine is Jamie for James.

[@zacharyriley4122]

sally is a nickname for sarah.

[@thecustomerisneverright2515]

Seriously how could they get that wrong

Interesting perspective.

[@vasantos-re4hb]

She should sit as a top advisor on the Presidential Cabinet. We need savy, intelligent people advising foreign policy.

[@pkn920]

Most accurate lecture, thanks!

[@FloridaManMatty]

11:19 - I would love to see those stats for 1959-1964. My father was with 5th SF in the Vietnamese highlands in 1960-61. He said the Motagnards were the hardest fighting people he had ever met. He also said the ARVN were more than capable man to man, but their leadership and organization was just not up to the task AT THE TIME. Like any other fighting force, they learned and they adapted and improved over time. Lord knows the Viet Cong and NVA were dying in considerably larger numbers… But they never fought to win. They fought to stay in the fight. They knew the United States would yield and walk away eventually as long as they didn’t quit. Game theory at work in war.

[@zachheisen5022]

Loved it, thanks!

[@stuckp1stuckp122]

Amazing!

[@MrFluidwill]

Excellent

[@monumentofwonders]

I hated Johnson at the time, having been drafted not once but twice to go to Viet Nam, or go to jail. But in retrospect, Johnson's domestic policies dramatically improved life for millions and millions of Americans. Hearing Paine describe the large international strategic issues, and how complicated they were, I don't feel so judgmental. It also shows how reckless Nixon was, creating the conditions for a holocaust in Cambodia. National interests are so often contrary to human interests. No one that I've ever heard has such a grasp on these complexities. Paine is brilliant.

[@jshepard152]

There are many good reasons to hate Johnson.

[@oceanrem6531]

I notice one simple pattern in geopolitical relations. No country likes to be invaded by a foreign power (regardless of the so-called "justifications). Moreover, any regime that is perceived by the local population to be a puppet regime of a foreign power will receive no support from its people. Once the foreign power withdraws from that country, the puppet government will collapse almost instantly (e.g., South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan...etc.). Vietnam is a tragedy. Millions of Vietnamese died (both North and South) simply because the French wanted to maintain its colonial hold on Vietnam after WWII. I could be wrong, but I understand that Ho Chi Minh initially sought support from the West (both the U.S. and Europe). He only turned to the Soviet Union and China for help AFTER both the U.S. and Europe refused to help him in his fight to get rid of the French colonial master.

[@nguyenphucdang4567]

South Vietnam wasn't a puppet, it was its own legitimate country. The U.S didn't help Ho Chi Minh because he was a communist that conducted bloody massacres

[@criticalmass613]

This lady could learn from Margaret Macmillan - what you know is as important as how you convey your message

[@bboomermike2126]

BTW I would like to thank DR. Paine for confirming what I have felt for over 50 years that the people who actually fought the war were disposable. I still feel this way. Now that I am completely retired the most patriotic thing I can do for my country is die so I am no longer a financial burden

[@bri200490]

I disagree , you were not disposable , nor were the dead and wounded from the US and it’s allies in Vietnam . Unfortunately US military intervention happened , but the result of that USSR and China spent a long time fighting , literally and verbally , such that they became rivals not allies as they had started. The next result was that the USSR collapsed in 1991, and China was brought into the fold. Unfortunately now the CCP has been trying to be USSR Ver2 . It will not happen but it will cost money and lives to get past this. But the US and it’s allies do need to get away from was Prof Paine describes as half court tennis. This is what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. The US has been brilliant at winning battles , even wars , but terrible at winning the peace and /or winning hearts and minds. The US does need to get more professional at a strategic level, and planning ahead , not just weeks and months , but years and decades. But , no , you were not wasted , but a valuable cog in a machine that you did not realise that was running . But also , I appreciate your dejection, or negativity , honestly hard not to be.

[@urbaniv]

Thank you for the extensive timestamps

[@billevans7936]

Maddox and Turner Joy were DASH equipped at the Tonkin incident.?

[@mcs131313]

Half court tennis. Love it

[@macworks9389]

I guess I need to look for this Johnson strategy of dividing China and Russia because I haven't seen it even in McNamara's book or McMasters. Seems a bit of an attempt to rehab him.

[@ianshaver8954]

I don’t know whether he planned for it to happen, but it happened. And it was yet another heavy burden for the USSR to bear.

[@northernbrother1258]

Her analogy of "choosing the other coke" is telling... they're both sugar water that'll rot your teeth!

[@leebiggs1685]

The war in Vietnam left the Soviets teetering and the Warsaw Pact countries angry. The Soviet Union could not stay solvent supporting 30 million Poles who were on strike, Reagan's "starwars" missile defense, and the Saudis flooding the oil market. It was a hand well played.

[@whatasam439]

Sally has a lecture on the collapse of the Soviet Union if you'd be interested in watching it.

[@Uberplacoderm]

At around 8:43, she says "way too much communism." How much communism should there be?

[@BayhouseLoans]

I wish this was what I was taught about the Vietnam war in high school history class. Instead I learned about casualty statistics and one sided reasons for doing this or that.

[@FIREBRAND38]

For the most part I like Dr Paine's approach to history, but rating LBJ "a genius" because he passed legislation for his Great Society doesn't work for me. His relationship with the Joint Chiefs of Staff could even be characterized as that of a stupid man as well as a bully. A lot of the Great Society hasn't endured to the present, contributed to the break up of Black families and created an unsustainable entitlement system at the Federal level that no one can modify much less repeal. I would also say his attempt to think of the North Vietnamese government as similar to Texas politicians that could be reasoned with by building schools and bridges wasn't particularly smart.

[@zacharyriley4122]

unsustainable entitlement system? what sort of economic professors have you been studying under???

[@centralguy1229]

Can she do something on elimimating the use of n😊uclear weapons which will eventually kill us all if we don'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

[@ThomasLauersdorf]

Talk about knowledge compression. Lucky students, enjoy the lectures.

[@pennpfautz2024]

Great material and insights. I'm glad that Dr. Paine put up the Great Society slide. I always felt that Johnson really didn't want to be involved in Vietnam but, in order to protect his domestic agenda he did pursue the war because he feared he would be tagged with "losing Vietnam" after the way he'd seen the Republicans beat up on the Democrats about "losing China" when he was in the House and Senate.

[@Marc-vc1wo]

That's certainly possible; additionally, the mindset at the time was the 'domino theory' and that communism must be halted at every step of the way or it would infect all neighboring countries and they would fall like dominos; this theory was later discredited because communism did not always successfully infect neighboring nations - instead the spread of communism coincided more with post-colonial nations either desperate to throw off the shackles of their colonizer or still harboring resentment against said power after their departure.

[@newtonw1008]

50 years since…the great society…unfortunately weakened American society. The bloat in the system couldn’t get cleaned out. Alas

[@mattbrown5949]

History repeats itself. If only the Bushes, Cheney’s knew this….Maybe they did and just didn’t care?

[@rickwrites2612]

57:34 DID he just get her name wrong?!?

[@dfsdh432v9]

he US lost almost 10,000 aircraft during the Vietnam War. The breakdown: 578 UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) or drones 5,607 helicopters 3,744 planes

[@RahulDevanarayanan]

0:34 “Ancient Proverb” some intern had a laugh 🤣

[@shariklein5883]

Go Navy!! Kudos to the Department of the Boat People!!

[@Jon.A.Scholt]

Who "lost" the Vietnam war? The people of Vietnam obviously. That country was war ravaged for decades.

[@animaxima8302]

😂 You obviously haven't seen anything about Vietnam other than Hollywood movies. Who lost? the army who desperately had to flee Saigon abandoning their bases and embassy. Get a grip. The US lost. Period.

[@teaser6089]

​@@animaxima8302 The US didn't lose the war. The people of Vietnam lost because their country was raveged by war and afterwards raveged by communism

[@toddfromwork8931]

@@teaser6089 um

[@kdr955]

The U.S. didn’t lose, they quit.

[@ninkd0311]

The B-52's made the north sign the peace in dec of 73 we left and they took over , mabe we won

[@acr08807]

The lecture starts at 5:27.

[@Xiaengao]

Some videos call her Sally and some call her Sarah. Why?

[@whatasam439]

Sally is a nickname for Sarah.

[@zhang_han]

I think the key takeaway here is that everyone is ruthlessly pragmatic, and the result of which is everyone is screwed over by everyone else. Everyone lost the Vietnam war. Even North Vietnam, who inherited a mess due to all the bombings and killings that happened through this whole saga.

[@mito88]

realpolitik

[@chrishooge3442]

I've spent much of my life thinking tactics. There is a reason you divorce tactics from strategic planning.

[@extranoodles]

I like that 30 second rule!

[@mcs131313]

If id had this 100% chance i would have been a history major

[@davewolfy2906]

Did she ever stop for breath?

[@bobstine3785]

Wow I love this lecture but it's like drinking from a fire hose! 🧑‍🚒

[@monacojerry]

Looking at the wars in Asia through the lens of the "Cold War" is the major misconception of this talk. The U.S. has acted in the world theater exactly the same before, during, and after the Cold War. What for the U.S. changed in each of these periods is the ideological justifications and the theaters of engagement. But the goals were always the same: to make sure that U.S. businesses could maintain market penetration and control of resources, all guaranteed by military dominance. This was the goal in the Americas, the Near East, and in Asia.

[@richardbarrow4620]

#1: Do we have enough gattling guns on our ships? #2: Everybody underestimated Viet Nam. The whole region was been at war pre-dating history. The elite were able to draw on countless generations of military tactics

[@jshepard152]

5:26 Start here

[@patrickmaline4258]

so this is where the cool kids are hangin’ out…

[@davewolfy2906]

Starts at 0:05:30

[@supernovarex]

I am curious if the social upheaval that occurred here at home over our involvement in Vietnam specifically the cessation of an active draft has weakened the American military's ability to respond to the needs of increased manpower?

[@mharley3791]

It fundamentally changed the way the military worked. It abandoned conscription, moved to more professional army and leaned into technical prowess. One of the outcome was that military became removed from civilian life. One reason the Vietnam was so domestically contentious was that anyone could be drafted; that is no longer the case, which allowed the military more leeway. Look at the Iraq and Afghanistan war. While mostly unpopular by Americans by 2008, America was able to continue to wage the wars because it had little effect on day to day life and most Americans didn’t think about it

[@SandfordSmythe]

The "Powell Doctrine " - don't proceed without national support and clear objectives.

[@simonmassey8850]

is this a real question?

[@carlanderson7618]

My own theory FWIW; Battles are won and lost by the battalion level and below leadership and the boots on ground trigger pullers. Wars are won and lost by the civilian politicians and their uniformed counterparts-Generals and Admirals. Since WWII we have lost very few battles but our record with wars is not so good.

[@whatasam439]

That's operational success vs. grand strategy. There's a reason we don't let military battle leaders make policy or designate national objectives: If you do, you get conflicts like WWI, with hundreds of thousands of deaths in a single battle. The military battle leaders of WWI were only concerned with operational success, that is winning battles at any cost, and no side did grand strategy. Sure, we won, but the cost was enormous and set the stage for WWII and the Cold War with the Bolshevik revolution and the kneecapping of Germany with the Treaty of Versailles. Sally has a great interview about this exact topic with Dwarkesh Patel if you enjoyed this lecture.

[@carlanderson7618]

​@@whatasam439 I would argue we do let the General and Flag officers make grand strategy. What were Generals Marshall, MacArthur and Eisenhower doing but getting involved in Grand strategy? Look at our various "War colleges". They are currently more interested statecraft, turning out more Marshalls and MacArthurs than Pattons, RIdgeways or Gavins.

[@whatasam439]

​@@carlanderson7618 But remember that General MacArthur was fired by President Truman for trying to run policy and contradicting Truman's strategy for the Korean War. MacArthur intentionally disobeyed orders from the president and thwarted Truman's attempts to negotiate a ceasefire, made public statements that disputed Truman's policy positions and wanted to escalate and widen the conflict with China. If he had gotten his way, we would've been embroiled in a massive Asian war against the wishes of Congress and the Commander in Chief. It terrified the Joint Chiefs of Staff that MacArthur was trying to single-handedly dictate strategy divorced from civilian oversight considering the murkiness of who had the authority to use nuclear weapons at the time. These were great generals, but MacArthur let his desire to win battles cloud his judgment and ignored the importance of civilian-led grand strategy. To allow Generals to overstep their authority and violate the sanctity of civilian control of the military is a fast track to military juntas; we can never allow the military to function independently of civilian leaders.

[@whatasam439]

​@@carlanderson7618 Also grand strategy is way more than fighting battles and claiming territory; grand strategy is the integration of all relevant instruments of national power in the pursuit of national objectives. If you think about modern governments in the West, they have cabinets and they sit before the president. Each cabinet position represents a portfolio of national power (Agriculture, Commerce, Defense, Labor, State, Energy, etc.), and by coordinating these instruments, you form a coherent grand strategy to accomplish national objectives, like increasing trade, ensuring national security, etc. These military generals were focused on operational success, winning battles, organizing supply lines, etc. while the civilian leaders ran the grand strategy of the country like retooling industry for the war and handling foreign policy. In other words, we tend to personify war efforts by singling out generals, but these military leaders wouldn't have been able to win without all the civilians back home supporting them. These distinctions between the duties of our military leaders and the duties of our civilian leaders are ingrained in national law and our constitution, which is why when generals shoot their mouths off contradicting the president they get fired.

[@mcp1187]

Sally? I thought her name was Sarah

[@whatasam439]

Sally is a common nickname for Sarah.

[@JWPanimation]

Sure we won the Cold War against Russia, but what did we pay for it? We got Easterrn Europe but transferred our industrial base under the PLA. Now maybe we can make it up to the Vietnamese and move our manfacturing there.

[@timothykerr9047]

All colonial wars were lost when after WW II the rich and powerful in Europe decided to end colonalism. They needed to rebuild Europe not build roads and hospitals and schools and factories in foreign places. They decided to invest the minimum necessary to get raw materials from foreign lands. To just rape the foreign lands instead of investing in them. Asia was devestated by America's actions during WW II. We were bombing everything to get at the Japanese military. It was going to cost a fortune to fix and repair. Over 7 million Indonesians were killed. 2 million Vietnamese died due to starvation caused by our bombing. Over 1 million Philippinos were killed after we went back in. We decided to just let them rebuild on their own. The super rich didn't want to rebuild these places. That's why the media, which the rich owned, did not support the retaking of the various colonies.

[@monacojerry]

Le Duan was from the south.

[@marcob.7801]

I love this lady, she is quite brilliant, but to suppose that Viet Nam was really necessary and nothing more than a "payoff" to the Military Industrial Complex & Cohorts (frankly with LBJ's cooperation {reticent or no}) is sheer folderol! Indeed, 10,000 miles away and impossible to sustain, especially against well motivated and highly patriotic indigenous people, which was a conclusion that MANY geopolitical strategists of the day felt, from McNamara (in his heart of hearts) to LBJ and even Kennedy himself! I know, I was alive and well and remember HOW MUCH this divided our society as a whole and on many levels! America's unnecessary interference all over the world, with hindsight, has proven to be disastrous! Can you imagine had we NOT assassinated Mogadeh in Iran, how different, and probably how much better for the entire region it would be today! Indeed, LBJ, in HIS heart of hearts (IF he really had one) KNEW it would be another and even worse "Korea!" BUT,...the bill came due for the coup he was part of with JFK's assassination and "curbing communism" and "domino effects" were nothing more than semi-believable hyperbole! I am 72 years old and even as an 18 year old politically semi-aware young man the deceit was PALPABLE and OBVIOUS!

[@PaulGarcia-h8e]

Jacobson Bypass

[@mito88]

2022 issues.... that's too many....

[@ArmyJames]

It was a tie.

[@mirvjournal1693]

...China supports this, we support China. What now? Footnotes, expand plz 40:56

[@tomdolan9761]

Obviously Vietnam

[@phamchung1789]

i dont want to hurt you but to answer for the question who lost the vietnam war. You should add more point, it is …. They send their children to vietnam to die without a reasonable explanation. Why am i die here?

[@MrSimonw58]

They whipped your hide real good

[@jeffersonwright6249]

Westmorland was a distinct liability

[@jackymarcel4108]

Anderson Frank Williams Donna Perez David

[@scottmagnacca4768]

She is great but speaks way to fast to be able to digest what she is saying

[@patwalker4048]

Sarah is brilliant, but she makes it sound as if most of the thinking was contrived and covert. I believe that people share a pie chart of similar traits, no matter what tongue they speak. A few very bright people, some fairly bright people, a huge center wobbling class of people with little information, and short attention spans, and a significant wad of thick, feckless, stumbling halfwits looking for a mob they can join. I think wars, especially prolonged wars, are more like hundreds of ping-pong balls being alternately thrown in a box car than clever strategic grand masters moving pieces on a checkered board. Or at least another pie chart of those two.

[@pedrocaetano3366]

have fun with that😂

[@АлександрРусаков-в4с]

Harris Maria Lee Brian Rodriguez Laura

[@fernandoalegria4240]

We lost the Viet Nam War. The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was written before the non existent event happened. We installed a playboy Catholic prince to run a Buddhist country. John Foster Dulles and the CIA made this gangster move, and it blew up in our face.

[@nguyenphucdang4567]

"Playboy Catholic Prince" ran the country quite well until the Americans got into his ways.

[@fernandoalegria4240]

@@nguyenphucdang4567 He was a thief. The South Vietnamese government was totally corrupt. Don't you understand, we tried to install our stooges so we could steal more efficiently.

[@24HeySay]

@@nguyenphucdang4567 Actually, his promised "land reforms" never happened, and he began persecuting, torturing, and murdering dissidents and Buddhist monks who disagreed with his policies, and that led directly to the creation of the homegrown insurgency we called the Vietcong. So the Playboy Catholic Prince was a miserable failure and wound up being taken out by his own people.

[@nguyenphucdang4567]

@24HeySay read a book. The land reforms happened and was a massive success. The communist monks were infiltrated by the communists and they were giving them drugs to burn themselves. Read UN fact-finding mission to SVN. The mission also found no policy that discriminated against the Buddhists. Educate yourself, a book is a good start. But we'll, after the vietnam war, Vietnam has become one of the most hypercapitalistic countries in the world. So was it a failure? Lol

[@kayleeforster3995]

697 Amos Pass