Vaccines & Freedom | Philosophy Tube

[@PhilosophyTube]

Really excited by this one - it's real, practical philosophy that changes people's lives!

[@gnocchidokie]

@@bcw1313 Good thinking. We must come to those conclusions first and be pre-disappointed before the first second of the video airs 🙄. This is probably going to be a 45 minute+ deep dive into the topic that will challenges some of our beliefs and leave us with things to think about more deeply on our own, rather than being spoon fed a hot take tweet on the subject, which unfortunately has been the only “discourse” that most people seem willing to engage in on the matter. So why don’t you wait until after watching the whole video before before whining?

[@miguelinileugim]

Woo!

[@gnocchidokie]

@@bcw1313 I can appreciate this. I’m probably overstepping here, but what may be happening is that you’re consuming too much content and too many thinkpieces. “But Spam,” you may be thinking, “I want to be well read on the matter so I can make the most informed opinion!” What you’re actually doing, I would argue, is outsourcing your thinking to the likes of bread tube content creators. So when they state an opinion you don’t agree with, it’s not enough to just disagree, it’s always a broaderstroke “problem” with the “community.” It’s not. It may be a consensus among a single digit number of content creators, but don’t mistake that for the community writ large. And I say this from a place of love, I had to step away myself and reconsider the amount of content I was consuming. I wish you healing and peace of mind.

[@michimatsch5862]

@@gnocchidokie it is also good if we disagree. We are not a hive mind. Unity on the left means united in purpose and praxis. Theoretical disagreements are valid and should be encouraged.

[@TerriMRoberts]

That's the best kind of philosophy there is!!

[@21Trainman]

Wow. Never have I heard “‘Vote with your dollar’ means people with no dollars get no votes” summed up so succinctly. It’s an intuitive concept, and something I’m sure many people sort of just know, but that’s a really good one line description of the problem.

[@thedarwinist672]

Then get more dollars. It's not hard.

[@bringinthedope5929]

Spot on Gabe, if only it was that simple for everyone to get those dollars.

[@Vher_]

@@thedarwinist672 SO TRUE!!!!!! just go to the BIG MONEY BANK and ask for CASH MONEY BABYYYYYY in COUNTRY OF RESIDENCE'S MONETARY DENOMINATION and you will be set to VOTE with your DOLLAR!!!!! that's how it works, it works for EVERYone, EVERYtwo and EVERYtree!!!!!

[@mikeandnike123]

@@thedarwinist672 money doesn't grow on trees.

[@caitlynguthrie5641]

@@Vher_ don’t forget to plant your MONEY TREE **now**

[@gailcbull]

I'm a cancer survivor. Personal stats: 1.5 months of radiation treatment, 6 months of chemo, 3 surgeries, 1 recurrance, and 4 years in and out of treatment. When I was going through treatment, I spent a lot of time in waiting rooms getting to know my fellow patients. I observed a phenomenon which I dubbed "suicide by cancer", but which I learned later is form a shock known by psychologists as "cognitive paralysis". The number of people who chose to not take treatment in spite of having completely treatable and survivable forms of cancer was heartbreaking. Cognitive paralysis happens when a situation is so terrifying that your brain simply can't accept that what is happening is real. You become incapable of forming a rational response to the situation. In most cases, simply doing nothing is form a comfort because it allows you to pretend that the "bad thing" isn't real. if you listen to most people who are voluntarily unvaccinated, you will notice one common thread: they never talk about the virus or it's symptoms or what a death from Covid looks like. Avoiding looking at the actual alternative to vaccination - as in getting seriously ill or dying from Covid - is something they are very strategic about doing. They always manage to divert the conversation away from the virus, itself. Just as the cancer patients who chose not to take treatment (and just go home and die) never talked about what kind of cancer they had or what form their death would take. Is your "choice" to not take the vaccine really a choice if you're in the grip of cognitive paralysis and just don't know it?

[@shelbymachado8712]

Thank you for sharing this experience. The phenomenon is not something I've heard of before, but it more concretely describes the understanding I have that the deflection is often about a critical level of fear.

[@DavidB75311]

THIS sounds very important and worth exploring more

[@PhilosophyTube]

Interesting point!

[@ikeekieeki]

this is a good comment

[@manderly33]

This is so interesting. I’ve heard all of the arguments in the video and seen the debunkings over and over, so it’s hard not to be frustrated with the voluntarily unvaccinated, but this gives me a new perspective. Thanks for sharing it!

[@Princess_Weekes]

Great video as always! I remember being a kid and my mom not giving me the HPV vaccine because it was so new. She was a nurse, and very well educated, but as Black folks, we be skeptical for reasons. Plus, I was 12. Jump to 26 and I went to the OBGYN to get the vaccine only to find out I had HPV. Thankfully, I got the other doses and I cleared it-but it stuck to me as a very traumatic moment that could have been avoided if I'd just gotten the vaccine.

[@bones7868]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 ok

[@bones7868]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 are you tryina be like "if you were like me this would never have happened" or what

[@nichollle]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 like i'm on the ace spectrum too but... no one asked? it sounds like you're implying that you're better than them. also, you need to get pap smears because you could still have cervical cancer.

[@cyez6840]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 The correct term is allosexual. Please stop embarrassing me, another asexual.

[@samiam2088]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 You still need to get PAP smears on time, HPV is not the only problem that PAPS are used to detect. Also, super weird flex?

[@skys0uls]

At 17 minutes when you mentioned Merck I was like, I recognize that name... then you mentioned the arthritis drug that gave people heart attacks and I was like ohhh right the people that killed my grandma.

[@lerialazariuc5923]

Oh my god, that is horrific

[@smokey6292]

Your grandma was old and prone to heart attacks, you cant blame a medication for that 🤦‍♂️🤡

[@ErutaniaRose]

Yikes...Hope y'all are doing okay and that memories of her are helping in remembering her positively. (I obviously never met her, but based on your comment I am guessing you did enjoy your time with her.)

[@superdark336]

the factual science facts of "Why was this vaccine ready so quickly" is interesting and not really surprising when you get to read it, SARS vaccines in parcticular and mRNA stuff in general was worked on for decades before COVID-19 hit, and the huge funding that came with it helped push forwards with already existing research, including mRNA experiments used to create a full on cure for HIV!

[@MeldaRavaniel]

Agree. "It was really fast" is actually "this took 30-some-odd years" all told. And clinical trials for them had ten times the participants usual clinical trials have. But again, piling on evidence isn't working. (Not criticizing your comment, fwiw. I have Larry parents, and I started with evidence and that did very much nothing)

[@superdark336]

@@MeldaRavaniel oh of course, its just a little fact that gets swept aside easily even to people who accept the evidence. Like.... they cured HIV, they created a cure for a horrid disease that has been weaponized for decades against LGBT people and poor countries, its beautiful.

[@gubbin909]

I was a little surprised this wasn't given more focus as well tbh!

[@JayeAnarkitty]

This, I was writing an article about the mortgage electronic registration system about 8 years ago, and kept running into articles about progress on a vaccine for another coronavirus called "MERS." Helpful information now, but supremely unhelpful at the time 😂

[@MySonBand]

Whenever this is mentioned, I really can't help but mention that we went from pretty much biplanes to full on jets in the scope of 6 years. And all because the world got really, really, really motivated to spend a shit ton of money on getting us there... of course at that time, it very much was to kill other people... but still, if humanity gets motivated and is actually willing to put in the money, things can go so fast. Really all that is holding us back from living in a better world is the fact that some rich people want to get even richer... if only they would profit more out of preventing diseases rather than making diseases chronic, we'd be able to get rid of so many diseases... it really is quite a disgusting thing to think about...

[@claireleblanc5471]

What I am really interested in is the empathy piece. I have a primary immune deficiency. I also have other factors that make Covid scary, but the primary immune deficiency makes vaccines not really work very well in me. I was told I could just isolate myself and not worry about what everyone else is doing. The problem is, if I want to isolate with a roof and food, I need an income. I haven’t had offers of mortgage payments or free food from the people who don’t want vaccines. So I have to go to work. As it turns out, I was right to be worried as well. I had three jabs, knowing the efficacy is limited. I still got Covid a few weeks ago. I had to be placed on a ventilator, as the initial treatment with steroids was ineffective and cause some nasty side effects. I have been off the ventilator for a week. I still have coughing fits, and I still can’t use stairs without becoming breathless. I’m just really glad my boss at work has made accommodations for my limited ability, as aircraft maintenance is usually a fairly physical job. I can’t even tell the people around me what happened though. If I say I got Covid, they will just look me dead in the eyes and say I’m proof the vaccine doesn’t work. I’m fairly certain the vaccine is the only reason I am still alive, and this all makes me sad

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

Hey, glad you made it through and shared your story with us. Hope you feel better soon.

[@EssayOfThoughts]

@@timekeeper2538 Abbie outright says in the video, if you don't want to look up a paper, that while you can still be a vector if vaccinated, vaccinated people clear out the virus much faster than the unvaccinated. Thus, less time infectious and thus, decreased opportunity to infect others. There's a citation in the video at the point she makes the comment too if you do want to look it up for yourself. Also, you have turned up in almost every comment thread I have opened, getting agro with people. What is your deal? Do you just like to fight behind the anonymity a basic google icon and random username gives you? If you want answers, chill out and engage in good faith. Most people here are happy to talk if you don't start by just accusing them of whatever takes your fancy.

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

@@timekeeper2538 I hope you might realize that your responses seem a bit odd, and perhaps a bit too accusatory to lead to a productive conversation here, especially since it seems you're already assuming myself and others are acting in bad faith. I must say, I'm not even sure what you're trying to assert, or from where you're drawing your assumptions. If you truly want to have a conversation with authentic responses, it might be easier for us to understand your position if you assert it directly, instead of posing questions in the role an interrogator. Hopefully you can respond in earnest and expand on what you believe and why. I am genuinely curious, although I can't guarantee I'll be able to respond in a timely manner since I have other responsibilities right now. Cheers.

[@Jo-tv6sj]

@@timekeeper2538 You're diving into each comment section to cause arguments. Get a life.

[@claireleblanc5471]

@@timekeeper2538 no one is guaranteed to spread Covid if they have it. There is absolutely things people can do to not spread Covid even after unknowingly being infected, vaccinated or not. People just don’t live that way, generally. The lack of empathy is pretty clear though. Have a good day

[@rabcye4333]

"Imagine living in a country where the rulers take money out of the healthcare system and give it to their friends" i am watching this from russia and i am on the verge of tears

[@_unrulyhair]

I'm sorry, friend :(

[@RashmikaLikesBooks]

Same thing in South Africa unfortunately.

[@NindeRingeril]

*cries in brazilian*

[@GabrielHellborne]

Well, shit! Can we be the rulers' friends then? Would they give money to us is we were all their friends? Do they need friends? They can have a few hundred million then!

[@iwant2haveu]

I STAND with innocent people in Russia 🇷🇺

[@FlorSilvestre12]

As an autistic person in the U.S. I've unfortunately been conditioned to associate people not wanting a vaccine with ableism extending into eugenics. I've heard so much "Vaccines are bad because they turn you autistic (which is bad)" that it's baked into my brain to tie not wanting a vaccine to hating people like me to a deadly extent. I've really been having to tease that specific antivax attitude apart from all the other concerns that people have been raising about the Covid vaccines because they just aren't the same. In particular there's another common vaccine concern in this country that hits close to home - the fear in communities of color that these vaccines are yet another chapter in the long history and ongoing present of the U.S. medically experimenting on POC. Imagine the pointless harm it would do to lump folks like that in with eugenicist parents. The complexities of this issue are a lesson I'm trying to learn, and I'm so glad you're doing the work to try to teach it to other people as well.

[@allisons6910]

Did you not get one for any of the above reasons?

[@FlorSilvestre12]

@@allisons6910 I'm fully vaccinated.

[@jaykoerner]

Is eugenics bad? Incest is basically illegal, incest prohibition is literally just a form of eugenics, being able to know that a child you're going to have will almost certainly die at a young age in pain mind you and that the option to abort would stop this from happening is eugenics. I'm sorry but you eugenics is generally a good thing so long as it's not mixed in with racism that's my personal opinion.

[@misspat7555]

How ironic that parents of children with autism likely have it themselves… or made a baby with someone who did… or both! 😬

[@TheRoyalInstitution]

It's been great to collaborate on this, Abi! Thank you for your impartial and empathetic approach. We are stoked about this video 🙌

[@timothymclean]

How does it feel to be confused with the Royal Society and/or the Royal Family by the people who assume you're royal plants or something?

[@TheGamblingisgood]

Royalists! (Kidding, plz keep doing what you’re doing)

[@doublenegation7870]

2 shills, now it all makes complete sense.

[@clubpenguin13531]

@@doublenegation7870 what a top-tier response /s

[@katarinajanoskova]

Definitely follow (and visit!) RI for amazing lectures if you don't already. In fact, I've just watched one before I started this.

[@orilliavail1923]

I’m autistic, and I was growing up during the first wave of anti-vacation rhetoric. I know it’s not all about “catching autism” any more but it’s really had to find empathy for people in a movement that got it’s start by demonising people like me.

[@aurorasideras2015]

Yeah… some of the stuff coming from that was basically, “I would rather my child die from this deadly vaccine preventable disease than to be autistic.”

[@Pebble_Collector]

I'm autistic and I don't believe medical procedures that require taking a degree of risk should be mandatory and and coercion that is undertaken to further these mandates is deeply immoral.

[@broskei4163]

I feel you, I hope that at the very least none of your relatives are/were anti-vaxxers at that time. Take care of yourself!

[@emilylerman9028]

@@Pebble_Collector true, but there is literally ZERO evidence that vaccines cause autism.

[@lixyororke]

I'm the eldest of two -- we are both autistic. However, I was diagnosed at 23, while my brother was diagnosed at around 4. I was fully vaccinated, but my parents fell into being antivax when my brother was diagnosed. They're not like that now (though they do seem very defensive about it to this day) but I find it funny that vaccinated or not, both me and my brother are autistic. Because duh

[@DianaAmericaRivero]

My mom is old enough to remember a time before vaccinations were common. She contracted typhoid fever as a child and suffered permanent hearing damage as a result while her cousin contracted polio. Cousin survived with her mobility intact but developed epilepsy, possibly as a long term side effect. As soon as news broke that the Covid jab was available, she made me drop everything to help get her appointment. The vaccine skeptic absolutely baffle her. She views them as spoiled and entitled.

[@rabbit__]

My grandma was a kid when the smallpox and polio vaccines became available. She has the same view towards folks her age as your mom does.

[@AlRoderick]

Here's the funny thing about polio, almost everybody who gets it just gets flu-like symptoms and either dies from it or gets better, the paralysis and loss of lung function and other sorts of chronic post-polio effects were not terribly common. It's all you hear about anymore with polio because no one is catching polio anymore. Eventually long covid patients with respiratory or other disabilities as a result of the disease are going to be all that's left, and we will go on to associate covid with a long-term chronic condition rather than the rapid onset killer plague that it actually was.

[@chestersnap]

My grandma feels the same way. She was telling me about how horrible it was that you couldn't go into hospitals without hearing the iron lungs going and that that horror she felt towards it is not only why she gets vaccinated but that the lack of exposure to it for younger generations is why they don't always realize the good vaccines do. She's very upset that two of her three children (fortunately, the two that aren't my dad) refuse to get the vaccine

[@KryssLaBryn]

@@jacobgasson8016 I remember one horrible anecdote from someone in a doctor's office I guess a couple years before the pandemic. This was a two-year-old, poor thing, and their mother was an anti-vaxxer, and hadn't gotten them the MMR shot. And they'd gotten measles. And they'd had a bad go of it, but had recovered and was still alive; was just there for a check-up. But this poor little kid, this toddler, was just sitting by themselves in a corner of the pædiatrician's waiting room, watching the other kids that were also waiting playing in the little play area there. And it absolutely broke their heart, the person who worked there who was relating it said, because they obviously wanted to go and run around and poke into things and play with the toys and the other kids, and they didn't seem quite able to work out quite why they couldn't. But everyone else could see why. It's because, due to an unfortunate complication of the measles that they had had, both their arms, and both their legs, had all had to be amputated. So here was this poor little kid, who had barely even learned to walk, who now was basically a head and torso and that's all, completely unable to even go across the room to play with the other kids. And why? Because their mother had believed a since-discredited "study" that the bloody Lancet never ought to have published in the first place (it wasn't even peer-reviewed!! And I don't know that I will *ever* forgive them for the damage they've caused by printing it regardless), and refused to get her child vaccinated with the MMR vaccine. Because she has been told that it could possibly harm her child, and she didn't believe the subsequent studies and statements that all said that, no, it was *fine* actually; and she hadn't known what the disease might do to get child if they *didn't* get it. Sure, it might just be a fever and badly swollen throat and itchy spots everywhere for a few weeks and that's it. Or it could make you sterile. Or blind. Or deaf. Or, it ends up, it might damage the tissues of the extremities so badly that the only option is amputation. Or, heck, it might just kill you outright. We probably *need* to cover what these diseases that we can now prevent with vaccines actually *do* to you. History can be horrific sometimes. I know that. And I understand wanting to keep stuff age-appropriate. But I really, honestly think that sometimes, we *need* to give kids that information. Because sometimes, as bad as some knowledge can be, sometimes *not* knowing can be *worse.* Sigh. My dad is in his 90's. He says that my daughter, his granddaughter, reminds him of his cousin he had when he was little. "A real little blondie, she was, like this one," he said to me. She died when she was about five or so. Of diptheria. There wasn't any vaccines for it back then. *Please,* guys, get yourselves and your kids vaccinated!! If you don't trust the governments, or the companies making it, then please do at least trust that their scientist peers who are reviewing their studies for any kind of errors, in process, assumptions, conclusions, biases, *anything,* are going to most likely have enough of the people doing those reviews who dislike the first bunch, or are spiteful towards them, or jealous of them or a position they got, or *something,* that they will *gleefully* pounce on *anything* not up to scratch in their study. Believe me, if the results weren't valid, the peer review process will find it out.

[@imyourmaster77]

Jesus christ, did you not see the video? Calling them entitled is exactly the type of language that Abby was trying to avoid

[@Guineapigsreadingbooks]

One interesting thing I remembered when you talked about systemic harm caused under the guise of public health was an anecdote my father once told me. While my family is white, my father works in the health care industry, and had a very interesting experience trying to find people for a drug trial that would primarily affect black people. Because of the long history of false medicine being given to black people not to help them, but to use them as vessels, it was very hard to convince parents to allow their dying children to participate in this potentially life saving drug trial. This wasn’t because the parents were bad people or blindly suspicious, but simply because trusting is hard for those who have a history of systemic abuse. While my father, a white man who had the expertise to understand the drug and trusted his colleagues to be truthful about what they were administering, could see the great harm that refusing treatment would cause, the marginalized and hurting families had trouble trusting the industry with the lives of their children in a trial of a drug that they didn’t know if they could trust. And a bunch of white people telling them over and over how great it was and to just trust them wasn’t going to address the core issue.

[@TheMusicalFruit]

I've worked in the pharmaceutical industry for close to 20 years now, so when the Covid-19 vaccines were available in my area, I got my jabs asap. Even I had some qualms about the efficacy given the shortened timelines, but I never worried about the safety of the vaccines because... well, vaccines are an extremely safe category of medicine. It was very difficult for me to see things from the point of view of someone without much experience in medical science, and this video did a good job of helping me empathize with people who are vaccine hesitant. Given how shady our governments and corporations are, it's understandable if one might be a bit wary of a hastily developed and government-endorsed medicine. It makes me very sad to see how our governments have squandered the public's trust over the past decades so that now, when a trusting relationship between the two is most needed, it's entirely absent for a large number of us. This is the consequence for fucking over the people you are entrusted to represent.

[@marthlink5015]

One of the few reasonable and rational comments here. There are many issues here, but Trust is the biggest issue, there have been people who lived and died over simple trust issues like military evacuations because they didn't believe what an officer said, or was skeptical and vice versa. The hyperbole of information and misinformation at that just makes this alot worse, and then algorithms that encircle people and their information only make it worse. But well i'll remain hopeful for the common man~.

[@lostinpencils4254]

As the child of a lifelong antivaxxer, growing up I have only ever seen strawmen antivax arguments online and it can make it hard for someone who is fed mistruths about vaccines and the medical industry as they grow to determine what reality is. I really appreciate how you have made their arguments feel more tangible because in real life, most of them are understandable in some way even if they're wrong. I never really doubted medical advice but it can be hard to find solid reasoning when people online argue against opinions that are uncommon and overblown. My whole life I have needed this video, to feel seen and to humanise my parent, thank you.

[@meganro2978]

I absolutely empathise, having an antivax parent is such a weird and saddening experience. I know what it's like to want to understand but just being unable to. I needed this video a huge amount too.

[@zoetropik]

"Imagine living in a country where the rulers take money out of the healthcare system and give it to their friends... I'm so glad I live in Britain, where that never happens." Absolutely priceless. ;-)

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

You're just writing words from the video, we all saw it, we all heard what she said

[@river_brook]

@@TheEvilCheesecake nothing is new under the sun, including this comment, including yours, including mine

[@empyreum6869]

@@TheEvilCheesecake And they found it an amazing bit? what went wrong in your brain here? aren't people allowed to praise or just share their opinions? Really going against the whole point of the video you're commenting under. Realitycheckyourself next time please

[@Alic4444]

@@TheEvilCheesecake Oh yeah, that's called a quote. People have done it through the history of civilization and the written word to highlight something someone else said. Cool, right? 😂

[@TotallySquirrel]

@@Alic4444 Speaking of quotes, I love your response, mind if I quote you on that the next time I see a dumb comment like @RealityCheckIns just posted?

[@cheriejay90]

I used to be a self-help Steve type. Did football, cross country running, athletics even represented my school a few times. Then a few years ago I had gotten whooping cough so badly that I had scarring in my lungs. I didn't go to hospital because I thought I could just fight it off (I did without medicine but at the cost of my lungs). Me bring stoic was just in reality really bad for me in the end

[@johnwrath3612]

Pertussis? That’s pretty rare in adults. Hope you got your tdap after that and hope you’re recovering well. Lung scarring is no joke.

[@dresdenvisage]

That blows, I'm sorry. Thank you for sharing that.

[@kelvinyoung3655]

@@johnwrath3612 due to all the people not getting vaccinated, rates are skyrocketing. Still low overall of course.

[@pettahify]

Similar thing happened to me many years ago. I was REALLY sick with high fever, so sick I didn't have the energy to go and see a doctor, I waited a couple of days until I felt a little bit better.... When I got there the doctor was kind of chocked when he looked at me and after taking the tests, he insisted that I took anti-biotics against the specific germ that had infested me. (In my country, doctors try to limit prescriptions of anti-biotics.) My answer: But, I already feel a little bit better, sooo.... His answer: Take the anti-biotics! Reluctanty I did. Still, In the back of my mind I was still thinking "this germ CAN in some cases be defeated by healthy people"..... 😂

[@ChannelMath]

I hope you mean "soccer", because those other footballs...not so helpful

[@atan7260]

as a researcher who only worked on studies that already have an allocated budget, its absolutely mind bending how a fully fleshed out study can be completed in like 3 months. Even with bureaucracy getting in the middle and slowing things down. its amazing how ape shit scientists go when they already have a budget to work with, hecking brilliant.

[@berni1011]

We know the funding won't last. Work fast or loose all when the situation is presented is the work ethic.

[@johnkesich8696]

There seemed to be something different about this video that I couldn't quite put my finger on. Perhaps the Gray Zone's article "Leaked files expose Syria psyops veteran astroturfing BreadTube star to counter Covid restriction critics" spotlight's what that is. Might also explain why this study could be done so quickly. "The CIA owns everyone of any significance in the major media." -- attributed to CIA Director William Colby While I have my doubts as to whether Colby actually said it, I'm pretty sure it was a reasonably accurate claim at the time and that it now includes the so called alternative media.

[@panameadeplm]

Yeah they were definitely completed as fuck, all of them.

[@madeupname3008]

as a minor whose parents tried to deny me the vaccine and refuse to get vaccinated, i must admit i had very little understanding for people who willfully choose not to get vaccinated. thank you for opening my eyes to the nuanced mess of a reality that drove a lot of people to make that choice.

[@Guimhj]

@@CynicalBastard "contracting CV with major symptoms" that's not really the only concern superspreader. Also, got any backup on the supposed miocarditis?

[@sebastianlavallee706]

@@Guimhj Studies have shown a slightly increased risk from getting the vaccine - and a massively increased risk if you get Covid. And of course he has no idea what it is or how serious it is...

[@CassandraForAGlobalTroy]

@@CynicalBastard This is mathematically incorrect logic. The risk of myocarditis from the vaccine is much smaller than the risk from getting COVID. Given the infection rate of COVID being very high among the unvaccinated with more recent strains, that means that it is mathematically the case that getting vaccinated is a better way of protecting a child from myocarditis than leaving them unvaccinated. Their parents may well have the best of intentions, but they are acting in a way that does not serve those intentions, quite possibly (likely even) unintentionally.

[@CassandraForAGlobalTroy]

@@CynicalBastard There is risk in anything, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no mathematical or rational reason to believe you are protecting a child from myocarditis by not vaccinating them. To the contrary, whether it is your intention or not, you are endangering them.

[@CassandraForAGlobalTroy]

@@CynicalBastard No, you didn't show any reasons. You said a number of false things that can be obviously demonstrated to be false, as I already have. Your argument is not founded in logic, it is founded in a logical fallacy.

[@tessatalmi4252]

One minor critique. We did not kinda defeat tuberculosis. It is still rampaging through the world ( last global TB report declared it the second most difficult respiratory infection after SARS COV 2). Especially since poorer areas of the world are massively higher effected and TB is able two switch between latent and active stages it is a massive overstatement to say that we kinda have a handle on it

[@Word-Smithy]

She did actually say that we kinda .... but not really.

[@tadferd4340]

And drug-resistant TB is becoming more common.

[@willmako5009]

Smallpox has been eradicated and would've been a better example, though. But yes, sadly there was no global effort to eradicate TB, like there was with smallpox, and it passes between different species including cattle (so the med-resistant tb strains are more common than the measles resistant ones could've ever gotten) so even a global effort would be more difficult. And sadly, as was pointed out, the pharmaceutical companies follow financial and not health-related guidelines

[@Sableagle]

​@@tadferd4340 I saw predictions, a long time ago, for a possible outbreak of, to skip the technical terms, very aggressive TB that isn't bothered by any antibiotics, and it looked like the back-story for _Left 4 Dead._ You know, "Two weeks after first infection"

[@WouldntULikeToKnow.]

Yes, just ask John Green about it.

[@radagast25a]

It is VERY different here in the US. I find your subjects fascinating. Here in my village in upstate NY, the pastor of one of the churches (which now appears to be closed) heckled his members to not be vaccinated or to mask, he ended up dying, and so did some other people as a result. It is a political and religious issue here. I never heard that type of thoughtful analysis from the vax refusers here and I did hear every trope you said you don't hear there. We are less siblings than most people think, I suspect, Britain's child grew up to be... different.

[@ltlrms]

I AM a statistician and I really appreciate the section where you laid out the methodology and (most importantly) limitations!

[@ltlrms]

@@raythink This is Biden's America... /s

[@Muzikman127]

@@raythink Banning kissing would be like banning trains because sometimes they kill people, or banning cherries because sometimes people choke on the stones. Anything looks bad if you _only_ weigh up the harms, and not take into account the whole picture.

[@jesperlykkeberg7438]

Gotta love statistics. Everything "COVID-related" is related to Sars-Cov-2 in the exact same sense that 100% of sunrises are rosster´s-crow-related.

[@HelloThere-ki5mg]

11:09 my mom is a doctor, she talks about this all of the time. It's especially bad here in the US. Want to make a physician mad? Just mention insulin testing strips being marked up 100x the production cost just because pharmaceutical companies can. It's honestly infuriating how medicine that's so cheap to make and people rely on to live can be so heavily abused by rich people in power and it's perfectly legal. There is a desperate need to regulate the price setting of medicine.

[@fenrirr22]

That is purely on USAs fucked up healthcare system. You get the same strips and medicines at a fraction of the price in EU countries even if said medicine isn't subsidized by the government, and not because US patients pay for the price instead of us (which is a commonly stressed misconception). Companies will simply make you pay for something as much as you are willing to, and if the government is not there to negotiate on your behalf (with all customers in their bag), then something you cannot allow not to buy will have an extremely high price tag.

[@pieppy6058]

Who would have thought that a massively demand inelastic market would be prone to market failure?

[@RV1AND]

Reminds me of Senator Joe Manchin and his daughter. He made his fortune from the ultra-polluting coal industry and she made her fortune by price gouging on Epi-Pens. When she was CEO of Mylan she made a bunch of shady backroom deals to get a monopoly on epinephrine injectors and then jacked the price up 500%.

[@mininabs]

It endlessly frustrated me early on in the pandemic that so many decisions were being made only from the medical side and basically no attention was given to the social sciences. Psychologists, sociologists, etc have been studying things like vaccine hesitancy, trust in science, and related reasons for decades. Many of the things your subjects talked about have been said before and no one seemed to think to re-check that literature. I'm so glad to see more of a qualitative approach being used, it provides a lot of detail that is often missed in general surveys.

[@karliebellatrixyoung6359]

In the US, we actually had a pandemic response plan. It was developed under George H. W. Bush. It understood all this research and made very clear recommendations that were designed to minimize these issues. Trump ignored it completely for perceived personal political gain, and hung public health officials out to dry in a way that directly exacerbated these issues.

[@thewittyusername]

@@karliebellatrixyoung6359 yeah, it's extremely frustrating to hear things said by people like the OP. Of course exhaustive research has been done about this. Unfortunately the research could not adding for waters poisoned so severely by Trump.

[@alexjames7144]

These things were absolutely tried. Everything that can be done to provide people with information and sympathy was done. And is done on a daily basis. These people aren't just called stupid on the face of it. They are given every opportunity to actually critically evaluate the readily available evidence and make a personal choice to completely ignore all of it.

[@cubialpha]

i appreciate that this isn't just an all-out attack or dunk on antivax, and is an actual attempt to understand ppl's feelings and empathize.

[@rossoobb4566]

@@LordRykard9376 i take it you didnt watch the full video. vaccines work. including the covid vax. to say otherwise is illogical and does ignore the science.

[@thelouster5815]

She’s giving them a massive benefit of the doubt though. The truth is most antivaxxers are grifters or really, really stupid.

[@cubialpha]

@@thelouster5815 true though

[@ChannelMath]

welcome to the channel!

[@ErutaniaRose]

Yeah, since they are honestly just scared. And yelling at a scared person isn't gonna help.

[@augustaseptemberova5664]

I'm gonna comment being only 2 mins in: "they're not talked to .." is not something I can agree with. From my pov: I've tried talking and understanding people like that who are in my life. When I respectfully raise doubts or point out contradictions, I'm called "naive", "brainwashed" or "sheep" etc. While I haven't found any common ground yet, I keep trying. Knowing that all hope is lost if I fully alienate them, I don't let off on them all the anger and frustration and ridicule and insults that come to mind when I hear their conspiracy bs. Instead, I save all this and vent it on antivaxxers that I meet online. My impression was that most people do it like that, and that antixaxxers etc. _are_ listened to irl - it's just that they misconstrue 'people disagreeing with them' as 'poeple not listening to them', as a kind of denial / ego defense.

[@TeknoSquirrel]

This is true, this video is very much giving them the benefit of the doubt which I do think is important because it will get through to people better.

[@suoutubez19]

watch the entire 42 minute video before rushing to comment.

[@augustaseptemberova5664]

@@suoutubez19 I did, but my opinion still stands .. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I commented because I didn't wanna forget commenting.

[@TheVnom]

Thats a great stance to have with your friends. Keeping them close is for sure better. I think theres a good way for you to approach them : if they think youre a sheep, then roll with it. Use the socratic method - at every step and every comment, ask them "why" or "how" until you get to the end of their reasoning - dont interrupt or contradict it. This shows 1. that youre open to their ideas and a proper discussion, and 2. it places them in a higher regards as an educator, its respectful. Google their topics of interests, not yours. Think of them as knowledgeable in things you arent. Ask who they think is an authority on the questions. Read or watch the opinion of the news your friends read - only then will you be in a position to counter and go on the offensive, after you've taken the time to be within their personal news cycle.

[@Noname72105]

That's the big thing the video misses: It empathizes with the unvaccinated as people who simply *don't* understand, when the reality is they *don't want* to understand.

[@bigjulius9886]

I started out as kind of an anti-vaxxer. I thought like some of your study subjects, and I wanted to wait it out to see if people who got it started dropping dead or something. What changed my mind and made me schedule my shot the next day was turning on my local news and seeing them say that some 90% of all peoples hospitalized with covid in my general area were unvaccinated, and the realization that if I got it or passed it to my family, they or myself probably wouldn't survive it.

[@TheVnom]

It sounds like bringing you out of your comfort zone, was the moment required for your change. Maybe looking up local hospital stats like those and sharing them could be a strong way to convince people to get vaccinated. Skepticism in effectiveness and distrust in public health are strong defenses, but it sounds like they can be deterred by proximity to the issue as those arguments both tend to be vague and detached from our daily lives. Thanks for your comment, its a good one.

[@she3esh]

If you're young and healthy, your risk of death and hospitalisation is still very low regardless of the vaccine. For example "An unvaccinated young person is 15x more likely to be hospitalised". Your real risk goes from 1.5 per 100,000 down to 0.1 per 100,000, a large relative decline but miscule absolute change.

[@danielskadal1997]

Good on you.

[@agiar2000]

We all start off ignorant. A real mark of maturity is having the ability to recognize the evidence and be willing to change your mind when it's justified. Thank you so much for being open minded and for coming on board.

[@nightlydrugs6927]

I’m really glad that motivated you, the hospitalization rate, I mean. I work in a hospital and people here who still won’t get the shots just tell me I (or the news) am lying about the numbers. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@azazel6076]

"where trans women can buy viagra and they say 'is this for your boyfriend' and you say 'ya know what, lets go with yes'" i actually died in laughter

[@lux-co3nl]

I don't think people realise how harmful the debate around vaccines has been and what an effect it has had on peoples lives. Here's an example from my own life. My girlfriend has gotten vaccinated this year in march. Sadly she suffers from severe side effects since then. Interestingly enough it hasn't been her sickness that has been the most difficult for her, but rather the way society deals with it. Before her vaccination I though, well if anything happens I will get the medical care I need and it will be fine. However in her case, she had to go through a dozen doctors, most of them unable, some of them unwilling to help, saying there are no side effects and that she's just imagining being sick. Every person she talks to about it tries to talk down her experience out of fear of being identified with an antivaxxer movement. A circumstance the media is responsible for, wich leads to thousands of people not being taken seriously and given medical care they desperately need.

[@lotrfan8]

Part of the issue with those who've had adverse effects is that it appears to be mostly the antivaxxers who claim they know several people who've died or had severe effects, where as the majority of people who've gotten the vaccine don't know anyone who's had severe adverse effects. It's hard to take seriously

[@tiff1681]

This is actually the very core of the so called “anti vax” movement. There are of course fringe extremism’s as there is with any movement but MOST of us either suffered an injury, or our kid suffered an injury. And after injury, you become largely gaslit, pushed out of healthcare, and left to figure it out on your own. So that’s what a lot of us did. We had to figure it out. And when we started digging, we started realizing that the science, and the history propping vaccines up on this pedestal, isn’t as pristine and up front as we were told. We learned injury and serious side affects and even death aren’t NEARLY as rare as we’re told. And as the vaccine schedule continues to grow- our only real goal is to secure the right of the people to make their own informed decisions.

[@tiff1681]

I always found that the irony of the “protect those that can’t get vaccinated” arguments hilarious. On one hand they say we must protect those that can’t get vaxxed. All while also refusing to acknowledge the injured that should not get vaxxed. They end up mandating the very people they claim they’re protecting. I am really sorry about what your girlfriend is going through. If there is any way we can help support her let me know.

[@plumafina]

My best friend died 3 days after having received the vaccine.

[@cassettetape7643]

Vaccine injury never gets taken seriously

[@SilentMeteorite]

This is the first video I've watched that really understands covid vaccine skeptiscm like how I've seen it in my sister. Dealing with her is terribly frustrating and I honestly resent her for being so careless around this pandemic, but at the same time all these anti-vax caricatures online have always been so over-the-top and unhelpful that it's insulting to her and to me, because that's just not what (most) actual covid vaccine skeptics are like it.

[@friendstastegood]

My sister is the frustrating mirror of the people in this study; she feels being vaccinated and boosted means she can throw all other precautions to the wind...

[@snowballjhin4705]

As someone with very first hand expirience of someone who completly fullfills the media portrait i must say, that sadly those people do still exist. And at least in Germany its surprisingly common. But there might be a cultural difference, it would be very interesting to know if i might've just gotten "unlucky" with a family member of mine to be a very *special* individual or if theres an actual difference in countries. Sorry that just came to mind.

[@mrpipps90]

Being "terribly frustrated" and "resentful" about someone's personal health choices means you are an absolute loon.

[@lizabeth529]

@@mrpipps90 its... contagious, so no, they're not.

[@mrpipps90]

@@lizabeth529 and you have a vaccine to protect you. After that mind your own business.

[@totalnonsense5405]

I was vaccine hesitant. For a long time, at first it was the seemingly rushed vax. And the mixed messaging coming from officials didn't help much. Then it was some dubious info from characters telling me not to trust established scientists, who, when I actually 'did my own research' turned out to be pretty untrustworthy themselves. For an embarrassingly long time after, it was spite at the root of it, that kept me going so long. Spite that people who had been so arrogant, judgemental and dismissive to all my concerns had been right. I'm single jabbed now, with my next dose coming up shortly. We would probably disagree on a lot, but I just wanted to say thank you so much for this. Going against the grain of what your audience might want and expect form you. To defend to common humanity of people who've been a tad foolish, is a truly noble act. Cheers

[@rosethorn7923]

As someone who is very pro-vax I'm sorry you had to go through that, and apologize on their behalf, for whatever that's worth. I'm glad to hear that you eventually came around despite it all.

[@raquelesteves3334]

Hey, as someone that has a bigger chance of dying from this shitty disease, thanks for being the bigger person, and getting your shot.

[@BlackWolf-uk2yb]

What actually changed your mind in the end?

[@PhilosophyTube]

That's awesome! I'm so glad you liked it!

[@samwight]

I mean what’s missing from this conversation is that almost all of the questions vaccine hesitant or antivax people have had have been answered very quickly. The data on vaccine effectiveness has been accessible from day one. The data and the knowledge on how to interpret it is all publicly available. It takes like… five seconds to Google “was the vaccine rushed?” and read just one of the hundreds of thousands of articles on the subject. Mixed messaging from officials is fixed by… reading the studies. All of this information has always been there. While I have a lot of empathy for your situation, it’s not correct to call vaccine hesitant or antivax folks “people who’ve been a tad foolish”. That’s not what happened here. What happened was willful ignorance on a subject where having the wrong opinion endangers lives. The information and the facts and the answers to the questions have been out there for years now, but vaccine hesitant and antivax people either have not done the work to look at it, or have avoided engaging with it on purpose. I’m not attaching any kind of moral judgement to this, like I don’t think that’s useful. I think most of this is due to systemic issues and consuming the wrong set of media, along with the fear of being wrong. But that doesn’t mean that every vaccine hesitant or antivax person gets off scott-free and doesn’t have additional work to do. Ultimately something happened to where they did not interpret the data correctly and, because of that, they endangered people’s lives. People who were vaccine hesitant need to do some serious self-analysis to figure out why that was the case and what they can do to prevent stuff like that from happening again.

[@bubz4994]

I'm a pharmacist in my professional life, and this was actually a really wonderful video. It's given me some really great pointers on how to approach people who come to me with questions who are skeptical about the vaccine and don't want it. Pharmacists are the central professionals around vaccines, as we provide the vast majority of people with them in the community, so having this information is incredibly helpful. Thank you very much for posting this and I'm going to share it with my colleagues for sure. Also, wonderful video production as always!

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

I think Pharmacists are one of the few community institutions that people still trust, at least here in the US. Sadly, that power has been withered away by the dearth of independent community pharmacies which can build those types of trusting relationships with patients, and yet every RPh I've ever known truly does their best, and most often knows more than MDs, having had boatloads of study in organic chemistry, pharmokinetics, etc. Even having worked for a time in mail-order pharmacy, I was always impressed with the absolute commitment and focus by the Pharmacists on patient safety and care. I wish more of the public had this insight.

[@bubz4994]

@@Jasper_the_Cat oh, thank you! that was a really kind reply! pharmacists are the only “free” providers left in america, so yes that can be true. however, pharma is a complicated world here, so not always. but that was a wonderful response, thank you again.

[@sciencegeek46]

My mom is an ICU nurse and many members of her family are in medicine. She explained to me how vaccines work when I was a child, so I had no compunction about receiving the covid vaccine (especially once I realized the only reason it was "fast" was because they didn't have to wait years on end to re-secure funding like they do for most vaccines) because I already understood why they were effective. The last few years have taught me never to take my medical literacy for granted. So many people don't have access to education about their bodies and about medicine. All they know is that institutions have historically not had the public's best interest in mind. No wonder they're hesitant.

[@KnowlesRyan]

Thank you for consistently having the captions in place on these. It's really helpful for me. I also really enjoy the description of the music between sections and in the intro and conclusion.

[@Starcrash6984]

I'm deaf, so I always watched with closed captions, and wonder how many people miss out on the nice jokes over the music.

[@yeeaahhzz]

lol@ "where is she going with this"

[@JordanSalisburyWasTaken]

I feel like you do the best job of embodying the ‘be kind to people and ruthless with systems’ approach. Thanks for another great video!

[@dancecommando]

I sort of watched this with an open mind. I feel I can intuitively understand and empathise with some of what your participants were saying, I am human, listening to other humans. I think if I met them and spoke with them I'm sure I would be cordial and pleasant and listen to what they had to say. But would I forgive them? No. I lost both of my parents to covid. My mother suddenly just before Christmas 2020, and my dad struggled on with long covid until the following July. It was the worst year of my life, my mental health is still in pieces, I shut down all of my social media and cut off 99% of my life because I couldn't stand to watch the few of my timeline go to anti-mask rallies or misinformation spreading or otherwise absconding from following guidelines. I barely speak to anybody anymore, period. I've panic attacked in crowded public spaces. I avoid where possible leaving the house. Am I to be understanding of those whom are vaccine hesitant? Do I bite my lip and give them compassion in order for them to feel comfortable enough to see sense? Is this what it would take? Does it bring them back? Dunno. My pain is unbelievable but it is my own. One day the virus will be a memory. It was an interesting video. I enjoyed it. I love how shiny your clothes and make up were. It was funny and insightful x

[@_Tree_of_Life_]

I'm so sorry to hear this, Anne. Wishing you all the best for the future, stay strong xxx

[@iloveyoubigmantyrone5609]

I love Abigails videos too but I couldn't sit through this one. I can't sympathise with people that see elderly, disabled, immunocompromised lives as replaceable and unimportant. It's heartbreaking and I can't in my soul forgive people who refuse to protect others by doing something as little as wearing a mask and getting a small jab. I deeply sympathise with your fear of public spaces and leaving the house. The world is terrifying now and the fact people think that things will go back to normal if we just all take off the masks and force it is insanely terrifying. Sending love because you definitely aren't alone ♥

[@iloveyoubigmantyrone5609]

@@popotade4621 It's hard to see through a perspective you dont understand. This virus takes lives. The virus could have taken less lives if we all took it equally seriously. We didn't. Our lives or the lives of someone else we love could be next. We're human and we're scared.

[@catherinenye4194]

It’s important for public health workers and philosophers to be able to empathize with these people. If their perspective can be understood maybe we can find a way to change their minds. You are a victim and absolutely do NOT have to empathize or do any emotional labor to change the mind of an antivaxxer. Covid has taken enough from you. My heart goes out to you. I’m sorry this happened.

[@catherinenye4194]

@@popotade4621 huh?

[@finley7906]

9:11 as a neurodivergent person idk why this bit is so funny to me? like its nice to see someone check their preconceptions about down syndrome but also like. nice save, Carol, got there just in time

[@naturalthemelodious]

When you started talking about people being responsible for their own well-being, I was immediately reminded of my trip to the psychiatric hospital. I'm an American and I had a suicide attempt on Valentine's Day of this year. I called 911 myself so I could get help, but I was petitioned by the police and taken to a hospital so that I could be admitted. I didn't have an option to refuse treatment because I was suicidal and therefore considered unable to make good decisions about what was best for me and if I did "refuse", I would simply be labeled as uncooperative and would be forced to stay there for even longer. I didn't learn anything useful the time that I spent there. At no point was I seen as a person. I was unable to wear a bra the entire time I was there because I might strangle myself with the straps. My family sent me some of my clothes, a blanket, a stuffed animal, a spiral sketchbook and some pens. All of it was confiscated, their reasoning being, I could "bring serious injury" to myself and that they were "looking out for my safety." I was put on an anti-depressant back in 2019 that made me more suicidal while I was on it and I asked my psychiatrist if I could stop taking it. When I was admitted to the psychiatric hospital, I was immediately put back on that anti-depressant now with the added bonus of them twisting the narrative into, "you were off your medications and that's why you called 911." Most people that go to a psychiatric hospital are labeled simply as "deeply unwell" and to be avoided by everyone that talks to them because "they need help." Well, I did what I was supposed to: I called 911--I got "help." But nothing really came of it.

[@erinmcdonald7781]

I can confirm that mental health care in the US is sporadically available, generally mediocre at best, and dangerous at worst. Frankly, it is the 2 ton elephant in the room with any discussion of human rights, medical care, or discrimination, or poverty/homelessness. IMHO telemedicine hasn't made this better because psychiatry is supposed to be anchored in the science of medicine, in understanding your patients physical condition, as well as their mental health issues (not that many of them follow that or the oath to do no harm). If you're a mental health care provider in N. Central CA, Bay area, or Capitol Corridor, I challenge you to show me different. I have Medi-Cal, and have never had access to a fully competent psychiatrist, haven't been able to get treatment for my ADHD, and have had trouble getting my PTSD taken seriously. And, I haven't dared in-patient, verifiable evidence of worthlessness and/or detrimental outcome. Adding my rant to yours. Stay strong. We need to support each other and fight for our rights.💜✊

[@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice]

I feel for you. I'm not currently suicidal but I've definitely had those times in my life where it was inescapable. I almost checked myself in for that and other things but was terrified of this exact thing. Crisis management for mental issues is a joke. I'm lucky I'm on the right meds. I sincerely hope your situation improves soon. I know this is obvious but you might want to try a hotline. Sometimes they're meh but sometimes they're a perfect distraction during key moments of high tension.

[@NightWing1800]

I could see how most of those things could be used to attempt suicide and why it would be good not to give them to someone who is suicidal unless supervised, but at the same time that feels like a dehumanizing experience that would just make the root causes worse.

[@bettievw]

@@NightWing1800 Honestly, the most dangerous thing they had was the antidepressants. Certain antidepressants can lead to serotonin syndrome, and I know several people who have attempted or committed suicide through that.

[@randomjunkohyeah1]

I’m so sorry for the abuse you suffered. These horrible systems encourage people to not be seen as people, but as checklists. There’s the “take away things they could hurt themselves with” box- weighing actual risk with the harm that can be done by someone not having those things “takes too long”, and just gets in the way of the box being checked. Then there’s the “get them medicated” box- asking someone about their history with drugs to determine if some should be avoided “takes too long”, and just gets in the way of the box being checked. It’s the disease of carceral logic being spread farther and farther. A human being is not a human being, they are a number, to be moved around and managed like an entry in a database. It’s the dehumanizing cost of efficiency in the context of control.

[@shellmartin2151]

“Chose not to get vaccinated, then died”. That statement genuinely hurt. My aunt got covid the day before she was due to get her vaccine in January of last year. She passed away on February 21st last year and it’s been the most painful experience for myself and my family. She was so dedicated to her career in a local mental well-being service and was also extremely dedicated to supporting her family. If she had the vaccine a week earlier then she would probably still be here and our family wouldn’t be in agonising pain every day from our loss. She was absolutely incredible. Always the life of the family and the best company. She actually signed up for a trial while she was in the hospital before she passed away. She believed that it would be worth it if it saved the life of others. This may have been the reason she passed. This has broken our hearts, but knowing that she went through this trial to save others is incredible. I hope that people who sacrificed their lives for covid trials eventually get the recognition that they deserve! For their families too.

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

So sorry for your loss- sounds like a special lady indeed, and I do hope someday she and others who participated in trials will be honored.

[@dianamerchant1026]

Dad passes a moth before vaccines were available for seniors here in Georgia USA. It is quite sad he was looking forward to it and had been so careful. Ty for your story and let’s keep trying to honor our loved ones memories. My sympathies your way.

[@claireleblanc5471]

My husbands great aunt died the day after her first dose. It was not the vaccine (she was 96, just had a feeding tube replaced and was in hospital following a stroke). It was heartbreaking. I absolutely understand how the wrong words in the wrong way can hurt. This is not what Abigail meant though

[@shellmartin2151]

@@claireleblanc5471 I did think that maybe I misinterpreted it, as I know she’s frickin awesome and wouldn’t want to hurt anyone. I think maybe she didn’t know how we could have perceived it? I guess it’s a sensitive topic.

[@lixyororke]

@@shellmartin2151 Firstly, I'm sorry for your loss. Secondly, I think the operative word there is "chose" -- as in people who otherwise could get the vaccine but didn't want to for whatever reason. And it's true that a lot of unvaccinated people are the ones catching and experiencing complications of covid. I'm pretty certain Abi wasn't talking about people who didn't get the vaccine and then died who weren't eligible for it, were unable to get it, had no access to it, etc., but people who had ample opportunity and refused

[@gingganggoolie]

I appreciate your approach to the issue, trying to understand why people choose not to be vaccinated. I would've loved a deeper dive into the justifications for and against curtailing various freedoms, but that probably would've made the video hours long. I'm sure a lot of us would watch a Philosophy Tube video that long, but probably not the best for casual viewers

[@michaelhird432]

Yeah I really wanna see a video about when and if it's ok to curtail certain rights. You could even talk about the Soviet union and the supposed tradeoff of workers' rights and democratic rights

[@sarahwatts7152]

I'd be interested too, since a government making those sorts of decisions might have to get autocratic in order to be able to take away those freedoms. Is there an example of a more democratic government making these decisions? This question comes with the caveat that the general pubic would have to know about how the freedoms were being infringed. When the US sterilized women of color without knowledge or consent (about 20,000 in Puerto Rico), they didn't advertise.

[@seanboyd2898]

@@sarahwatts7152 As a Canadian, there is at least the War Measures Act and Emergencies Act, but that's really only two case studies.

[@gingganggoolie]

@@sarahwatts7152 I know some school systems require kids to have non-covid vaccines, but as Abigal says, they aren't particularly stringent. I should definitely look more into the topic, as a trans person, governments making decisions about its citizens bodies is an important one

[@NightWing1800]

@@sarahwatts7152 The Patriot Act in the US. We started a "war on terror" to justify setting up a surveillance state and tightening our borders. They weren't exactly subtle in restricting homeland freedom for matters of national security.

[@emilyarmstrong83]

I waited an embarrassing amount of time to get the vaccine TBH. I have (had?) a really severe fear of needles that really made it hard for me to buck up the courage to go down to Walgreens and just get it done. I was only able to do it after my best friend had a stern word with me about it after I showed up unvaccinated to her grandfather's birthday and someone caught COVID. For the record, if needles also scare you a lot, here's something I learned when getting my first COVID shot: breathe slowly (in for 5 seconds, out for 7), don't look, and play a game on your phone. It'll help you control your reaction while you're getting your shot/your bloodwork done, and while your nerves might still be jangled afterwards, you should be able to avoid a panic attack. Hope this helps, stay safe out there.

[@Steveuploads]

After what you’ve learned about how having a vaccine for this respiratory virus ( such as the flu, never wiped out ) how do you feel about that the difference between vaxed and Unvaxed ability to spread the virus is now deemed the same. Oh and Justin Bieber and wife ?

[@xXxChaoticXx]

It's not a fear of needles. It's a hatred towards authority thinking they can own my body. I have the right to die as I will. If you think I'm so contagious... you go get vaxxed, you stay 5 feet away. Don't try and get me to bow and kiss the ring of power. I'd rather be dead

[@marietailor3100]

So my brother turned out to be a vaccine skeptic (when my mom and I got vaccinated, he took a magnet to our arms because he thought we had been magnetized or microchipped. He’s also 43.) and it baffled my mom, my dad, and myself. But the thing that I still have trouble handling and the thing that made me angry with him (though I tried my best to hide it) was that I’m immunocompromised and have had asthma my whole life. He’s seen me spend week-long stays in the hospital even when I was a child from complications from lung infections and more. Also, at the time, our father had only recently completed cancer treatment AND he’s a diabetic and he’s elderly. He also lives with my mom who is nearly 70. I’ll be honest - even with this even-handed and measured piece that I genuinely think was great - I don’t get it. I’ve done all sorts of things that scare me for the sake of people I care about and society at large. I guess what I’m saying is that I understand that the skeptics want us to understand them and their choices. But that ultimately, in real terms, it feels like they don’t give a shit about whether I or my father or mother live or die because I guess we should just die off anyway already since we’re so weak and have so many issues that make it likely that this virus could kill one of us. The ONLY way I get to live a full life in society just like everyone else - where I get to go to concerts and restaurants again without bloody masks - is if like 95% of people get themselves vaccinated. Even if there are potential risks, even if you have a choice, I’d always choose to take the bullet to protect those who can’t protect themselves. I feel like it’s fair play to morally challenge the choices that people make. Like with the free speech argument, it often feels like when people talk about freedom in this space, they don’t mean the ability to say whatever they want - they mean the ability to not get CRITICIZED for it. And I think that that’s a direct inversion of freedom. If you are free to make a choice, then I should be free to say what I think about that choice even if you don’t like it. You’re free to walk away from it, but you aren’t free to make my opinions cease to exist. Similarly, when people talk about vaccine passports and mandatory masking and the like, I ask about the freedoms of those who can’t get vaccinated or who have health conditions that increase the likelihood of death. What about their freedoms? It’s not really a free choice is the alternative is risking death. I don’t know. I should probably stop writing all my thoughts on the subject in a KZbin comment section but, as all these restrictions are lifting, I’ve been increasingly forced to stay home bored out of my mind because I can no longer be certain that when I go to a restaurant or bar with my friends, that I’ll be (relatively) safe. It’s also much harder to do work from home job hunting than in-person jobs and I can’t take one of those. So… I’m stuck venting my frustrations here, I guess. Ugh.

[@mangoblaze]

I hear you (as a fellow asthmatic) I feel like the problem is the ableism present in society that's so unseen but ingrained that it seeps into everyday people, even those we love, like background radiation & those who don't stop and think about their own internal biases can easily fall into a place of security and privilege where they simply don't think about those of us who are disabled even if they do know people like us; It's so insidious.

[@8lec_R]

Same issue here in my country. We aren't ready to open yet, we have barely hit 80% vaccinated (not even counting boosters which are very important for immunity against omincron) but the govt in all their all mighty wisdom have opened everything, even if someone in my family is sick with covid, I have to go to school or work. It's so stupid. I can't believe this same govt was the one that closed most of the country last year when we had only 25 cases. In 2020, we got rid of covid by just closing everything except grocery stores and hospitals for 8 weeks. June 2020 to Feb 2021 we literally had no COVID in the country, it was fuccin glorious. Just cuz the European countries stopped doing full lockdowns, they didn't do full a lockdown in 2021, a trickle of cases continued even after the lockdown was lifted. The grew to hundreds of cases everyday in September and by November it was thousands of cases everyday. Even now it's thousands, but the govt doesn't even count those people who are at home and sick, only those who go to the hospital are counted officially (offical count hovers between 100-200) Fucc, my entire family just got COVID, luckily we're all vaxed so all doing well

[@adeldell8275]

Thank you for writing all of this. I found myself in a similar situation not so long ago. What you said was very well put; I too can't understand how inconsiderate some people ( even relatives and close ones) can be. Many need to realise that not everything is about them and their choice and so on, especially when it comes to such large scale health hazard as Covid, that has shown time and time again that it substantially harms the more vulnerable individuals around us. For example, those who deal with asthma, such as yourself.

[@raulinurminen7299]

I feel you and I don't know what to say. What you wrote is like my thoughts, excatly. I think this particular comment section is a good place to vent and I'm glad you did.

[@iloveyoubigmantyrone5609]

I love this comment. I just can't sympathise. I was in a video call with my grandfather, an 86 year old man who is AFRAID of dying to covid. He found out that his church friends are not vaccinated, they omitted that and spent time with him. They also join us on these video calls. During one of their rants one of them literally said aloud with this 86 year old, at risk, person in the call - "It only kills people with underlying conditions and people over 80.". I can't and won't sympathise. They are selfish people.

[@EricOrang]

I think what I appreciate about this channel is how it takes time to listen to to others. So much of the internet and content on it feels like it's trying to "win the argument". To just yell their views and opinions at others and dismiss or belittle those that disagree with them. Even other very good "breadtubers" I feel fall into this trap. Like, it's not about discussing the issue or having a conversation, it's about proving that you are right and they are wrong. Come to think of it I feel like this is something that is instilled in us by our society. Like in schools, at least here in the united states, if your doing a debate or writing a persuasive paper, you are explicitly told to up-play your points and down-play theirs. We are taught that that is the best way to convince people. But what does that lead to? Two sides unwilling to listen to each other. people shouting the same cyclical arguments at each other. If you change your mind you lose, and changing your mind is weakness, so you have to stubbornly stick to your side no matter what is said. Think of how much of the world would be a better place if we were taught to listen and respect others opinions. That the best way to talk about your view is to lay out an issue neutrally and then discuss your reasons for choosing what you did. That you don't have to "win" or be "right". And to not be looked down on or belittled for changing your mind.

[@PhilosophyTube]

I'm glad you picked up on that - I deliberately try to make the learning non-competetive for the exact reasons you say!

[@Mercure250]

Beyond just being a thing of "It's important to listen to others", this point also has epistemological value. I came up with this motto : If you always try to be right, you run the risk of always being wrong. That's why, instead of asking myself "What proves me right?", I ask myself "What could prove me wrong?". This is ideally how science works : Emit a hypothesis, and try to demonstrate it's wrong, and by failing to do so, you can say the hypothesis was (probably) correct. If you think you found a rule, try to find counterexamples. And so on, and so forth. This is, imo, the best way to avoid things like confirmation bias, and it's how you can get closer to the truth. And having other people's perspective can help you a lot in that respect (this is also why things like peer review exist). It's also true that trying to destroy someone with facts and logic on the free marketplace of ideas isn't going to convince most people, which is why it's important to listen. The Socratic method can also be interesting to try. Although when the person you're talking to just avoids your questions because they see it as a rhetorical trap (which it isn't really, if you're able to avoid fallacies and things like that) and they don't want to fall into it, you can easily go in circles for a very long time (had an online conversation like that recently; very unpleasant).

[@TheModdedwarfare3]

+ratio

[@cjwhite2631]

He is a talented person but he is pushing all the evils of the world. Is that positive enough ?

[@DecemberDaydreams]

o.o

[@Even7ually]

The bit about trust is really interesting. I'm gonna simplify the events a lot, but in France, we've had a special case of "not being able to trust the government". At the beginning of the pandemic, the overwhelming message from the government was "do not wear masks", with variations like "people wouldn't know how to put them properly as you need to be a professional to do so", "they are not efficient”, or “they make it easier to catch the virus", etc. One of the gov's spokesperson said something along the lines of "why would you put on a mask, I've never put a mask, I wouldn't know how to do it." Turns out it was a way to mitigate their TERRIBLE management of mask stocks; masks have an expiration date, and it was just cheaper to buy less of them, considering we usually throw most of them out as we rarely need that many. Well, in this instance, we did need them. And sure enough, a few months later, "you have to wear a mask, or you'll be fined." when they got access to them. Now I've always worn masks, but clearly, I see this type of speech that contradicts itself within a few weeks couldn't have helped people trusting the government. I myself do not trust said government, that excuse they used of "masks are useless" when they purposely had not properly supplied their stock is inadmissible imo.

[@terry9238]

Yes, I remember that. I too was angry that they had lied to us at first-AND that they hadn’t (instead) just ramped up production and (free) distribution of masks ASAP. But I didn’t let that anger interfere with doing the right thing, to protect myself and others, once we knew the truth.

[@Melissa-sx9vh]

I remember that too. I think if they said since the beginning that we had to wear masks but that they, themselves (as a government), didn't manage the production of masks in a way that would allow everyone to have access to masks right now people would have felt less betrayed by the brutal shift of discourse and the mandatory masks overnight when people couldn't even buy them. They should have told people how to make homemade masks while waiting until the "real" ones were here. But I guess it's better to treat your population as dumb people instead of being honest...

[@stevewithaq]

That's not quite the whole story, though. The closest relative to SARS-COV-2 known at the time was SARS-COV-1 (the "OG" SARS). SARS-COV-1 is not airborne; it spreads largely through contact with contaminates surfaces. So they began with the assumption that SARS-COV-2 was also not airborne. Hence the emphasis for the first few months on cleaning and disinfecting everything. Hence also, I suspect, the slowness of many governments to procure masks in quantity and the governments' original recommendations against wearing masks. That was a costly assumption, but not a lie. Had those governments continued to downplay masks AFTER determining that SARS-COV-2 was airborne, that would be a lie. I do not believe that was the case in the US, but perhaps France was different.

[@plainText384]

I always assumed the shaming, repeating evidence, etc. was not designed to convince the unvaccinated, but to convince the ALREADY vaccinated that they did the right thing. The consumer of media is likely vaccinated, and people like to hear that they are better and smarter than other people.

[@trollololol4601]

For me it's not about reassuring myself, it's about venting frustrations. I know not taking the vaccine endangers everybody and it does feel selfish not to take it if you can because of that. This is frustrating, and hearing other ppl frustrated is cathartic

[@TheRonster1957]

@@trollololol4601 How is not taking the vax endangering everyone else? If the vax works, then the vaxxed are protected. If the vax doesn't work, then taking the vax means no benefit conferred on anyone, and therefor no additional danger to anyone.

[@CreativeCache101]

@@trollololol4601 wrong, Pfizer have since stated there was no proof from the trials that the vaccine prevented transmission, so not taking it didn't endanger others any more than having it, in fact not taking it and not being aloud to go to things would be safer lol

[@bye1551]

When I call anti-vaxers stupid and wrong and dumb and uneducated, I'm under no illusions I'll "change their mind". I don't want to change their mind. I don't care. They're wrong, and stupid and dumb and if they feel embarrassed or shamed or like I'm judging them GOOD. They are putting immuno-comprimised people in danger, me in danger, my family in danger and I don't have room to empathise with selfish destructive morons who care more about being morally consistent than mitigating the harm they cause to the rest of us. When I shame them, I want them to feel shame. They don't care about my feelings, my wellbeing or my health and their *choices* prove that. I don't have to care about theirs.

[@14s0cc3r14]

I just don’t like them and want them to suffer for the suffering they cause. I genuinely believe the world would be better without them in it

[@Seriouslycantplayguitar]

Love just dropping in "human pussy virus" in the middle of a totally serious and factual speech. Almost spat my coffee. Love the videos, your sets and production of each scene really inspire me.

[@GeekInBelgium]

I'm sick and have spent the last few days throwing up badly, causing chest pains due to the spasms. It hurts to laugh that hard T-T

[@michaelterry5095]

Is HPV both Human PeePee Virus and Human Pussy Virus?

[@DeadSkinSuit]

Yea I literally died

[@HeyNonyNonymous]

I liiterally had to pause the video to catch my breath.

[@mygills3050]

Followed immediately by “in the early naughties” (00’s)

[@Adeodatus100]

When I first read Isaac Asimov's "Foundation", I found it unbelievable that a culture would degenerate from scientific literacy to superstition in just a few years. Then I lived through the covid pandemic. Turns out Asimov was a better judge of human nature than I was.

[@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice]

Not to be dark, but I don't think anything changed. We were like this before and after covid. Everything was primed for this to go wrong in exactly the ways it has gone wrong.

[@tony6795]

@@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice That's what Temmosus meant by human nature. Covid just shined a spotlight on it.

[@Smok3yR1der]

I feel the same way. The way science has gone from meaning scientific processes (hypothesis, evidence, theory) to whatever the government says is acceptable that week has been very sobering.

[@tony6795]

@@Smok3yR1der hahaha, ok buddy.

[@Smok3yR1der]

@@tony6795 as if to prove my point

[@ErutaniaRose]

THANK YOU SO MUCH for talking about how the research done in medicine is usually for the rich and thus doesn't solve many problems of those without the dollars. As a female person with reproductive health issues that have "no cure" or even much treatment, this spoke so loud to me. We need more research into what is actually affecting people's ability to enjoy life, their quality of life, not just whatever pays best. We need far more research into chronic pain conditions and how to aid those affected based on what they say they need. Just to be clear I am NOT saying to "cure disability" but to give people the medical care that they rightfully deserve, want, and need. (want AND need) Especially for conditions such as Endometriosis, or arthritis. Things that often drastically change the quality of life of someone in a negative way. I say this as a disabled person with chronic health conditions. Do I wish I was not disabled? Not really. I have multiple disabilities both physical and mental, and many of them shape who I am--and I like who I am. Do I wish I knew how to manage my pain and health conditions so I can do more of what I want to do? YES, and I would love it if my conditions were taken seriously at the doctors and within research--THAT is what I am advocating for. For research to go into various conditions, especially chronic ones, so that if someone wants and chooses options to change their quality of life, they are listened to, and respected, and there ARE options that exist for them to choose from! That is all, I promise. I hope this message comes through and makes sense. Thank you!

[@FrozEnbyWolf150]

I used to be vaccine hesitant, but for completely different reasons, while still fully supporting vaccination programs. In years past, I would rationalize not getting the flu vaccine, because I didn't want to take medical resources away from people who might need them more. I was also in a bad place then, and didn't care what happened to me, just so long as I didn't hurt anyone else. I had a similar rationale to the COVID vaccine at first, because I kept hearing that supplies were limited and difficult to get to the people who needed them, which was easy for me to interpret as the government not caring if I lived or died. After all, they'd already told me I didn't qualify for the relief checks, because reasons. I had to learn just how short-sighted my beliefs were, which took getting very sick multiple times in 2020, albeit not from COVID. If I'd gotten the flu due to not being vaccinated, and then spread it to others who are immunocompromised, that would count as harming others based on my own decisions. If I'd ended up hospitalized, that would definitely take medical resources away from those who need them more. If I were to get the flu, and then get exposed to another preventable illness, the outcome would be much worse due to my immune system already being occupied fighting something else. All of these apply to COVID as well. I was already taking all the precautions, like masking and social distancing, as well as things that went beyond that like disinfecting surfaces at home and wiping down any goods brought home. So it didn't make sense to undermine all that by holding off on the vaccine. I would probably have fallen into all of the categories of people in the study at once, except that I decided it was better to get vaccinated to prove the same points. The pharmaceutical companies will profit far less from your getting the free vaccine, as opposed to your needing the emergency treatments (which are often experimental themselves) that can run you tens of thousands. You give up far fewer of your rights, to travel and mingle with others and enter places of business, if you're vaccinated. The government has far less control over your life if you're healthy as opposed to sick. So the best way to avoid all the things that the vaccine hesitant are most worried about, is to get vaccinated.

[@MegaChickenfish]

" I didn't want to take medical resources away from people who might need them more." I'll admit even being firmly pro-vaccines that was what had me delay getting my shot. I was under the assumption it would be like polio with people lined up for miles and I wanted the high-risk people to get theirs first before someone with no adverse medical conditions who works from home and doesn't get out much. Come to find out I'm in the bible belt and there was literally no line.

[@jennifernordlund2691]

No vaccines since they were forced on me as a child and I'm doing great! I love not pumping all those chemicals and toxins into my body.

[@Alic4444]

@@jennifernordlund2691 Instead you live with the disease of spending all day spamming comments on youtube videos trying to make arguments about the global effects vaccines with only your flimsy personal anecdotes to share.

[@mieliav]

@@jennifernordlund2691 did you consider that one of the reasons you're doing great is because you were vaccinated against various diseases wh/ could've impaired you?

[@The1Helleri]

19:17 I also went along with it. I got the jab because epidemiologists, virologists, pharmacists, Internists and the like told me to and that it was safe and effective. I trusted that. Just like I implicitly trust that the bus driver who went to a school specifically for their job and who has had on the job training isn't going to get us killed after I board. Or that the person making my food at a restaurant that has a good grade on it's windows isn't likely to make food that will kill me. Trust is something we extend to others all the time. We couldn't get by without doing it. Really trust is just having more confidence in the ability and judgement of another regarding a particular matter than you have in yourself. The person I don't trust is the one who has more confidence in their own ability and judgement than they do in the ability and judgement of those who've actually done something to warrant that confidence.

[@exoendo]

And yet the US government lied during the tuskagee experiments. How much did trust work out in the instance? Millions died in the war in Iraq because our leaders, our diplomats, our bureaucrats lied to the world about weapons of mass destruction. Obviously this list goes on and on. Blindly trusting authority isn't something to be proud of.

[@The1Helleri]

@@exoendo I never said anything about trusting politicians. I don't trust politicians and that's because I don't have confidence in their ability to govern me over my ability to self govern. A politician is like an expert that speaks far outside of their field. They'll most often give you an answer that means nothing regarding something they know nothing about or dodging the question entirely rather than just say I don't know. They'll also have their information coming from interpretations of biased poll data and advisors that don't know anymore than they do who have an agenda. The only thing most politicians are experts in is failing upward... Meanwhile a scientist uses the evidence derived from the scientific method. Which is at it's core a process of discovery that aims to self correct and control for bias. And those that are experts in a particular field will often be very specific about what they do and don't know. where the limit of their expertise ends. When they are expressing opinion vs. when they are stating facts. It doesn't do to listen to what most people say scientists say Especially through the game of operator that is news reporting and passing information up the chain, what people say they say vs. what they actually said are often two very different things.Or somewhat similar but with a crucial omitted difference. So wherever possible I try to see what scientists and especially experts in a field themselves actually say. When I see an article about scientific discovery by a journal or paper that doesn't exclusively deal in that. I check their sources. If they point to a study I am unfamiliar with. I read the study (at least the abstract which is almost always freely available. Often where an article will have over-stated or misrepresented can be found in that first paragraph or two and one need go no further to dismiss the claim that is often a click bait title). So pointing to something where politicians misrepresented the science isn't a gotcha on trusting the science.

[@fozziebean]

@@exoendo I wish there were some kind of exam or test for politicians to become politicians, that would ensure their aptitude. Their degrees and experience don't mean anything in terms of how well they do their jobs.

Same. I trusted the professionals when I got my three jabs. Not the politicians though.

[@user-kn6rw9uk2i]

The MASSIVE problem that happens is that if just 1 person is affected adversely, that experience for that 1 person has a massive weighted bias, and creates a bias gravity well around their social proximity IF they take this as evidence that the adverse effect is necessarily a *bad thing*. For example, my son gets the shot and he has a seizure. If I go around telling people that this happened and you shouldn't get the shot as a result, I can drag people around me into that crevasse because they know me and my son. If I say this isn't a big deal, it's fine, it probably would have the opposite effect. In some cases even if you say this isn't a big deal, just talking about it could get you "cancelled" if you don't bracket the experience with: "everything is fine, I'm just unlucky". One guy I saw had a kid that seized after the MMR. His big issue was he didn't hedge this in ANY way, he just expressed it as something that happened rather than something that happens rarely and doesn't regret it. I felt this was irresponsible of him, personally.

[@Blegh93]

I find informed consent to be a really interesting but also somewhat nebulous area - I’m a junior doctor and obviously we’re taught in medical school to make sure we practice informed consent in all sorts of areas, but in the actual practice of medicine (especially with understaffing) that area can get a bit blurry. For example in my practice when doing regional nerve blocks to help reduce pain in people with hip fractures before they get seen by specialists, I find that even though I tell patients potential negative outcomes I don’t spend a lot of time on them and try to get them to have the block - I don’t do this intentionally and it happens because a) side effects are rare, b) the only negative ‘side effect’ I’ve ever seen is it not working as well, c) it relieves pain meaning that they don’t receive as many harmful effects of opioids (and d) having 50 other patients in the ED and only 3 other doctors). I actually would say I spend more time on gaining consent for these more minor procedures than some of my colleagues, who I’d genuinely say practice medicine well. But when I really think about it - this is someone elderly, often in the middle of the night, possibly a bit muddled due to everything that’s happening and likely not familiar with medical risk and topics, and who is in severe pain if they’ve not had opioids (or drowsy and more muddled if they have) - can I really be said to have given that patient truly informed consent? (Note that I also don’t want to spend ages talking about potential side effects and ‘scare off’ someone anxious from a procedure that relieves pain and is much less risky than the procedure they are likely to have the next day) I don’t think I’m doing anything wrong when I give this person effective pain relief and touch briefly on rare side effects but it’s one factor of how ‘informed consent’ is a lot more complex than it initially seems. I feel much more comfortable being a patient now that I have a medical degree because it’s much easier to understand what my doctor is talking about and to have a bit of background knowledge of what’s likely/more risky.

[@Blegh93]

Also great video, I’m always a bit anxious to lend any acknowledgment or cede any ground to people who are nervous around vaccines but I think this is a really good and thoughtful video which is quite respectful of the people who aren’t really part of the more ‘cult anti vaxx’ crowd!

[@nelsonth]

At some point, as patients, we reach the limits of being informed, without taking a medical degree ourselves... Definitely a grey area.

[@makaiawarfield1028]

I really appreciate your comment. I like to think that the majority of people who work in healthcare and healthcare-adjacent jobs are a lot like you and your colleagues. People who are knowledgeable, competent, and reliable. We shouldn't all need medical degrees in order to trust our doctors et al.

[@deadfr0g]

This so easily falls into cliché territory, but thank you for what you do. I’m not in healthcare or medicine but about half of my family and extended family is. I sincerely believe that the professionals who do seriously consider these kinds of things throughout the years that they practice are inherently the professionals who do the best jobs at truly connecting with their patients’ wants and needs.

[@atinity6749]

What about situations that are really time-sensitive? If something medical has to be done immediately or the infliction gets worse. Being in pain is a state where it's indeed hard to really understand long term effects on something. Right now I'm missing a tooth because my dentist refused to do basic root canal treatment for it. She claimed it wouldn't be possible to do it but I later found out she was most likely lying, since she had lied about many other things and messed up my dental care in a multitude of ways. Tooth was eventually so painful even with painkillers I couldn't focus on anything. They gave me two choices; get the tooth ripped out or go home with the pain. I technically had a an option to do the root canal treatment, she said it could maybe be done but she doubt it would work. I said I wanted that, I wanted to keep my tooth. She tried to talk me out of it, until she completely back-peddled and claimed it wasn't possible. This dentist claimed for years that I don't have tartar or cavities. I asked her point blank "do I have tartar because I would like to make an appointment to have it removed" she said with a straight face that I have absolutely no tartar in my mouth. Now I switched dentist and the first thing the new one did was to fix my cavity, yes I had one, also he said I do in fact have tartar and it's starting to mess up my teeth. I have constantly gum infections and now I know why. Thank God I'm finally getting treatment for it. Had I stayed with my previous dentist, she would've just waited til all my teeth were rotting in my mouth and pulling them off until I had none left.

[@peterhooper3391]

What's interesting to me is how these folks are all so focused upon their distrust of "the gubmint" while completely ignoring the chains around government held in the hands of oligarchy, business and commercial interests.

[@Blackoutwhiteout23]

Why is that "interesting" to you? It's a sub-par juvenile ironical observation, what's ground breaking about it?

[@stephaniel2850]

The other thing I find is that, at least in the US (not sure if it might be a little less common in the UK and other countries), the hardcore antivaxxers overwhelmingly tend to also be the ones screaming about "blue lives matter" and proclaiming their complete faith in the police and prison industrial complex! I'm like... no, you're not distrusting of the government, you only dislike the government when you think they're getting in YOUR way of being able to do whatever the hell you want at all times, no mind to the consequences. You're completely and totally fine with them wreaking havoc on the lives of actually marginalized people.

[@MichiruEll]

So, I've actually "convinced" a person to get vaccinated. And her particular case was an interesting commentary on trust. She's an employee working the register at the cafeteria of my university. She first saw me when I started my Bachelor's in biomeeical sciences in 2009. And every since, she's regularly seen me come pay for my lunch during my masters, PhD, etc... Once or twice, I forgot my wallet and she let me come pay later, but beyond that I don't know her name, and she doesn't know mine. So here's the interaction that convinced her: She was serving coffees at a science comm conference I was attending on campus. She asked what the conference was about, I told her. And than she whispered: "Say, what do you think about this vaccine thing? Do you think I should get it." I replied with "Well I've chosen to get it, and from the studies I read, it seems to be really safe." (Not a lie, I did actually read the studies published by Moderna and Pfiser). She: "But you know, I have this autoimmune disease, so it means that my body already makes many antibodies, so I think that might be enough to protect me. And then I told her I also have an autoimmune disorder (also true) and explained to her that the antibodies that attack her body would not be able to attack the virus, because each antibody is very very specialised. She did not realise that antibodies are not all identical, and genuinely thought her disease protected her. We talked a bit about our disaeses, forgetting vaccine talk for a while. After that exchange, she asked If I thought she should get a vaccine. And I replied with "I think that would probably be a good idea, so that you can be protected." And she said she was going to make an appointment. She's an immigrant worker who still most likely hangs out in Portuguese speaking community outside of work. Our government, does not communicate in languages other than our official languages, so she had not received much easy and kind communications form authorities. I was just the right person, at the right time, with the right level of authority (she had seen me go through my years of study) and the right level of relatability (similar diseases). I think we overestimate the number of people who are dead set on not getting vaccinated. Many unvaccinated people just need to be talked to with kindness by the right person. Primary care physicians are likely incredibly important for this task.

[@luannafsantos]

As an educated person with an autoimmune disease, you should also know that there is a newly discovered type of autoimmunity that’s caused by adjuvants. The suffering women are reporting worldwide about their “breast implant illness” (including me) is the same suffering many people worldwide are reporting from vaccines that contain aluminum (unfortunately almost all of them). Aluminum and silicone among others are materials that permanently stimulate the immune system - mostly in the wrong way, even when there is nothing to fight. When there is something to fight though, the body will create antibodies even more efficiently than a healthy body - unless the person with autoimmunity is taking medication against it. It’s been proven that people can create their own immunity to this virus (that’s not the case for all pathogens though). If a person has untreated autoimmune condition (usually a painful life) this person will create immunity to practically anything in “supersonic” speed and efficiency. I assume you and the Portuguese woman you mention are getting treatment (because it seems like you have an actual diagnose, to which there is a real treatment). So you gave really good advice. Now, as someone suffering from an yet-untreatable autoimmune condition caused by an adjuvant (which thank God can be removed, and thank God that I will be able to afford it soon), I understand how it feels to not have our pains go unrecognized and being gaslit into thinking they're “conspiracy theories” against the beauty/cosmetic surgery industry (silicone implants) or big pharma (vaccines with aluminum). Just like autoimmunity caused by the adjuvants in vaccines (mainly aluminum), my condition is debilitating. But unlike those who suffer from vaccines adjuvants, I can remove the adjuvant causing me all these, and the problem will hopefully go away (like it has for millions of women already who report on the internet how they got their health back by removing adjuvants). Aluminum from vaccine gets stuck in the brains, arms muscle and many other areas that can’t be removed. They are also not getting treatment nor recognition and are being gaslit by doctors (many of which are nothing more than big pharma's “influencers”). Breast implant illness just like any other adjuvant induced autoimmunity is REAL. Vaccines are incredibly dangerous, and nobody seems to question that they're the only drug that is given like “one size fits all”. That’s never the case for any drug. How do we accept that for vaccines? Dosage, formulation, frequency of doses should be calculated for each specific individual. Not everyone need the stimulation aluminum gives. Old people, immuncompromised people, people treating autoimmunity certainly do. Young healthy adults or people with untreated autoimmune conditions don’t. Even though we could all benefit from the mRNA effect, it’s not worth it sometimes because of the risks of adjuvants. My health deteriorated severely in the 4 months post vaccination, all autoimmunity symptoms got worse (there was no nocebo effect, since I believed at the time mRNA vaccines had no adjuvants in them, as I read from a reputable source, which turned out to be a lie). Remember we don’t have access to the entire truth, greedy companies or entire industries wouldn’t benefit from that. Please research about why Pfizer doesn’t want to sell their vaccine (nor the formulation) to poorer countries. Research about how much profit they're making from selling all they can sell to rich countries, asking for insane prices per dose, claiming that people in rich countries need to keep getting more and more doses. Milking all they can before separating anything more than 2% of the doses for poorer countries. Let's not forget what big pharma really is, and how Pfizer was the least trusted company in the least trusted industry until a couple of years ago. Remember. And remember the forgotten people being labeled horrible names while all they're doing is surviving from adjuvant induced autoimmunity and trying to be taking seriously. Now the reason I’m commenting this here is you can’t talk about autoimmunity and vaccines without remembering lives that were ruined by adjuvants.

[@DecemberDaydreams]

o.o

[@thedolcetto81]

I think it may also have to do with the fact that you have treated her as an another intellectually able person (we tend to say that anivaxxer are stupid), have listened to her concerns with empathy, and have a shared experience (your autoimmune disease) that may have helped her to relate to you.

[@swimawaylittlefish1542]

@@luannafsantos I haven’t personally done much reading on the potential effects of adjuvants on autoimmune conditions, but I think you make some interesting points here. I would definitely agree with the idea you mentioned about personalised/precision medicine, where treatment takes individual differences into account when deciding to take a certain drug or treatment (i.e. not taking the 1-size-fits-all approach). I was actually talking to my lecturer about this today - about why medicine hasn’t integrated all of these new techniques for personalised medicine into mainstream healthcare + he said that the methods/materials they use to eg. find someone’s genetic profile (one factor that might affect how you eg react to a drug) are often expensive bc they’re intellectual property, and so our access, as the general public, to avoiding bad side effects that are specific to the individual is a lot lower than eg someone with a LOT of money :/

[@vipcress]

@MichiruEll Maybe with your studies and expertise you can explain to another person who's refrained from taking this novel mRNA 'vaccine'. How forming an immune response to the spike protein surrounding the virus. Protects one from the actual virus? Im not medically trained so this is all a bit confusing for me...

[@irahryphson8879]

As a disabled person with multiple axis of marginalisation, I did a lot of research into the vaccine before getting it since taking it was a risk. But I had to weigh the unlikely cost of vaccine side effects vs the very real risk and cost of getting C-19. I recognise that people might not trust the government and have just reasons for that but the constant fear disabled people have to love with because others don't care is really hard. Sure, it's their choice, but their choice affects others, thus making it a decision they are taking out of the hands of others. Its like smoking. Unfortunately, smoking affects others so it isn't just the smoker who is affected by their decision. Public health is public and non individual.

[@dandylionsloth446]

@@dodorus966 You are literally advocating for the "right" to kill disabled people . . .

[@ZephyrFate]

@@dodorus966 A virus isn't a germ, or a bacteria. The vaccine doesn't include any antagonistic chemicals; it's literally just a portion of the actual virus and some sugar, more or less. If you choose to ignore public health, you are harming everyone around you.

[@OkeyBestie]

@@dodorus966 so in your opinion all the vaccinated people who see you as a threat to themselves or their loved ones can "take the right to kill you off" or in this instance force you to get vaccinated?

[@dodorus966]

@@ZephyrFate ​Wikipedia agrees with my usage of the term. In the entry for Germ (microorganism), redirected to Pathogen -> «Typically, the term is used to describe an infectious microorganism or agent, sch as a virus [...]» I don't feel like discussing the trustfulness of the sources about vector vaccines anymore. I believe I already did enough of that for a lifetime. It precisely is concern for public health that leads me to that decision. Being able to keep untrusty companies from putting whatever they want in your body is absolutely vital. Rest assured I trust my choice to be the one that saves the most lives in the big picture.

[@ZephyrFate]

@@dodorus966 your choice saves no one. I don’t feel like discussing with idiots either.

[@nos5915]

"Vote with your dollars only means that people with no dollars get no votes," literally preach, queen

[@PitLord777]

And people with lots of dollars get lots of votes.

[@tpilot_error404]

Yet through existing , you are voting too. Contribute your verse to the play.( Leaves ot Grass)

[@trojanhorse860]

@@PitLord777 The dollar was just a metaphor for the rich or wealthy. Dont take it *literally.* She meant the poor, dummy. Most of us are. By the way, the original liberalism (Locke...) was meant only for the upperclass who own land, .... & *not for the poor who were the* *majority of the people of course.* Even "democracy" back then was meant for "the master class" which was the white owners & rich..... Even *citizenship* was denied to the poor first as well as to women; colored people....

[@PitLord777]

@@trojanhorse860 I never took it literally. 'Voting with your dollars' not only means poor people can't vote, but the rich and wealthy have more voting power than the middle classes.

[@trojanhorse860]

@@PitLord777 Ok then, sorry. Have a nice day. Thanks. Cheers.

[@dulloddity]

I had one of the weirdest encounters with someone about Homeopathy. They had chronic pain, and found a homeopathic cream they liked to put on their area of skin pain. The cream doesn't DO anything, but the belief does. Their chronic pain could be treated with placebo effect. Their beliefs actually were useful. In some contexts the belief is actually ok because we really just need the brain/mind to change how it thinks, and the physical symptoms can be ignored. There are places this can't work, like cancer, or infectious diseases, but in other places it might actually be ethical.

[@milesmartig5603]

Woah! You know what that reminds me of: Mental illnesses presenting themselves as physical symptoms. Homeopathy (or any other placebo that works) may be able to treat this type of illness just as effectively as a medical treatment for an immune disorder for instance. If you are a doctor, or work in medicine, I would highly recommend reading the book "Nobody's Normal", or at least looking at some of the points the author makes. Basically, stigma is a non-medical cultural lens that constantly creates blindspots in treatment. This has less of an effect on doctors than on patients, because doctors are much more likely to trust and understand the results of research that disprove stigma. For instance, if a patient in the west (different parts of the world have VERY different stigma) has chronic pain, and the doctors have tested all known medical causes that match the symptoms, but there is still no medical cause, then, according to research, the pain could very well be caused by psychiatric illness, rather than an illness of the body that is yet understood. Keep in mind, that (in simplification) psychiatry is just a catch all for the type of medicine that doctors haven't been able to fully explain. The stigma that exists in the west is that mental illnesses are somehow less "real" than physical illnesses. That is simply wrong, but people get very upset over it. People will go to the ends of the earth to find a doctor who will tell them that their chronic fatigue and joint pain is caused by a virus or an immune disorder, when the much more rational culprit is a chronic mental illness.

[@MaticTheProto]

Ethical? Obscene prices for water and sugar? Don’t make me laugh

[@takutolovex]

@@milesmartig5603 I suffer from mental illness and luckily have a good health care network that believes I suffer from this. Sadly it is heavily stigmatized and very hard to find help. I believe the world is just not ready to accept the tolls of mental health issues on society. CPTSD and other mental diseases and disorders can easily be treated if it just gets more funding and recognition

[@SharienGaming]

using placebos? risky, but can be ethical - prescribing homeopathy? nope that is profiteering off of other peoples suffering and just gambling on "maybe placebo will work" if you want to ethically use placebos, do it with something inexpensive - ideally something they can prepare themselves and that fits with their pre-existing beliefs... like if they are a big fan of herbal remedies... suggest something in that realm that is harmless and maybe even has some unrelated benefits... if it makes them feel better, placebo might be able to do some lifting but that is still risky, if there is an underlying root cause that the body cant deal with and it goes without a proper diagnosis due to the placebos that then causes more and more damage until it becomes undeniable that theres something wrong and homeopathy is INCREDIBLY expensive... if you ask me, no practicioner that prescribes it, should be allowed to practice because either they cant be trusted to put their patients wellbeing first or they arent qualified to do their job

[@denki2558]

The unethical part is people profiting off other's ignorance. From your own words, if they just need the mind to change how it thinks, then why not promote mindfulness exercises to them that are free of cost?

[@LilacGeese]

I've had a history of vaccines just flat out not producing antibodies, including Hepaitis B and measles. When I was at uni there was a measles outbreak on campus due to unvaccinated people. I didn't know until 3-4 years later after a serology test that the measles part of my childhood MMR wasn't effective. Basically the only thing protecting me was luck until I got revaccinated. It's made me pretty hardline on trying to get people vaccinated, because my immune system is not great even when I do everything right. So I really need the safety of herd immunity as much as possible.

[@LittleSparklingStars]

This has been told over and over to these anti-vaxers. And yet they sit there and cry about the fact that people call them selfish. And they truly wonder why? I think they genuinely just only care about themselves.

[@AuntyKsTarot]

Im in the same situation except I ended up with mumps from anti vaxxers (so I wasn't lucky). As a result I find anti vaxxers incredibly selfish for the lives they risk. As an Indigenous person I can't help but note that the majority of anti vaxxers are racists who want me dead anyways.

[@chandra_creator]

@@franklinblunt69 huh? this person just happens to be a biological fluke

[@CassidyOG]

@@LittleSparklingStars First of all, the COVID-19 vaccines have never been marketed as capable of curbing spread to any significant degree. Their primary function have always been to reduce serious illness when/if you get infected - and they are effective at this. However, there are many studies and empirical examples that show the vaccines are ineffective at creating herd immunity and does not prevent transmission enough for it to matter. Then there is the issue of waning immunity among the vaccinated (the vaccine does not last forever), new mutations that reduce effectiveness of the vaccines and so forth and so on. The idea of herd immunity for COVID-19 is largely a myth and people need to stop spreading it and look at the hard facts. Countries with 70-80% vaccine coverage still experience record numbers of cases. I myself have several acquaintances that have gotten infected twice despite being vaccinated. Given these data, calling the unvaccinated selfish doesn't make sense.

[@casscass-andra]

When you talked about autonomy and control and said it's hard being transgender.... I laughed outwardly and cried inwardly. Keep going strong girl!

[@fozziebean]

The thought of Abigail saying "I'm trans, too!" at a bus stop to some random cis guy who was actually talking about being against the COVID vaccine. 🤣 Imagine how confused he would be.

[@trojanhorse860]

For someone whose motto is critical thinking, philosophical inquiry, doubt, distrust of authority....you have just shot yourself in the foot, darling. I've never thought it possible that you w'd sink so low as to endorse the official vaccine & corona narrative, while many top scientists, including Nobel prize winners, have been debunking this state propaganda that you fell for. Too bad. I will be looking at you with different eyes from now on. *What a huge disappointment.* Even former comedian actor... *Russell* *Brand* turns out to be way more "objective" than you could ever be in relation to this vaccine & corona issue at hand....

[@millykendrill5301]

@@trojanhorse860 Found the transphobic conservative Christian anti-vaxer.

[@millykendrill5301]

We transgenders have it harder in this country than any other on this planet.

[@DoveJS]

@@millykendrill5301 It might be a spambot?? The name and the statements in response to this comment, instead of the video makes me wonder. Also, are they gonna use glass eyes from now on? What color are they? I need to know. :)

[@vanessa-iv8qz]

The “it was all too fast” argument never really convinced me since it was clear from the beginning that everyone was working on the vaccine simultaneously. All the important research centers and universities, with the best scientists and so on. It’s quite obvious that if a larger group of people is working on a project at the same time, chances are that they might come up with a feasible solution much quicker. Nothing rushes up capitalism as losing money does (considering that shutting down hurt the world economy).

[@Idontevenwanachannel]

Though this is true to a certain extent, one does have to consider that there are limits to how much money you can throw at something in substitution for research time. Classic analogy of "getting 9 women pregnant doesn't net you one baby in a month" applies here.

[@vanessa-iv8qz]

@@Idontevenwanachannel yeah but as abby stated on the video, the technology was already being studied for decades at this point; we also have to take this into consideration i guess

[@kiekiek]

You do realise that a lot of things need years to really become clear. I am talking about adverse effects, already in the first few months after release negative side effects were found that never came up in the design trials (these trials are not designed to find such effects) like the blood cloths and myocarditis. Realise that only a one percent increase of developing cancer the next few decades due to the vaccin is not something that you can find in one or two years. Same for all kinds of neurological problems that may pop up the coming years. Another example, myocarditis is only found clinically ten percent of the cases (so a scan always almost needed), so lots of cases of myocarditis are not found, and myocarditis may be mild and heal fairly quickly, it is well established in cardiological journals that myocarditis gives a greater risk of getting a fatal heart attack even 15 years after the initial myocarditis. Please do not start and say that the virus causes myocarditis more frequently (those studies are really bad, very bad estimations of people already having the virus, or getting routine screened with pcr, not able to route out other causes of myocarditis etc), besides you can not get immune to the virus, so the risk of myocarditis from the virus wont go away anyway. Then there is the ADE (antibody-dependent enhancement) due to the pathogen mutating itself and the body on the other hand getting trained to immunise itself against an already outdated version of the virus (so the immune system reacts to the mutated virus with the old useless antibodies it got from the vaccin, and in so doing not attacking the virus but actually helping it) So the risk benefit analysis for a vaccin against a pathogen that at the end of the day is barely two times more dangerous than a flu (Omikron even less dangerous than the flu) that also can not give you sterilizing immunity, is very unclear for almost everyone under 60 years old, more so for under 40.

[@red1monster_]

Not only shutting down hurt the world economy but also selling the vaccine

[@samkadel8185]

@@kiekiek there have been more long-term studies of tons of other vaccines, and the long-term risks of COVID on pretty much all levels are hugely reduced in those who have been vaccinated. Also, if you're going to claim that the studies on miocarditis are so dubious, at least link the ones you are referring to so other people can fact check you.

[@datoaster4991]

Fun Fact: viagra is actually used as a heart medicine and the sexual stimulant part is actually a side-effect. My dad works at my local hospital and told me that because he was told to give viagra to a patient and got told why.

[@fandomcringebucket]

Does it give them a heart-boner? An affection erection?

[@alexjames7144]

It's not super common to use in humans for heart problems afaik, because of the *side effects*. There was a TV show recently actually about the discovery when it was being trialled for safety as a heart medication. It is, however, very common in Veterinary medicine as it doesn't have the same side effects on most animals as it does humans. Turns out we actually have a pretty weird method of achieving physiological arousal biologically speaking.

[@starbreaker6740]

@@alexjames7144 could you elaborate on that? :o

[@alexjames7144]

@@starbreaker6740 About the comparative arousal methods? Lots of animals have an os penis (a bone in the penis) that provides a lot of the structure, and otherwise have more hefty supporting tissue so they don't really need to rely entirely on blood flow for erections. To offset the inconvenience of having a permanently hard rod attached to them, they retract it into themselves a lot more. Ours is entirely out all the time, with only the head becoming extra exposed when aroused. Whereas in most mammals it is covered and internal, arousal mainly just causes some muscular contractions and relaxation to cause it to emerge. So in animals the Viagra isn't going to give them a permanent erection like it would in humans, and is therefore quite useful for heart medication.

[@labinsky]

i understand that this video was limited by the study and the limitations that study had, but i really wish that it had explicitly included the voices of those who are immunocompromised, chronically ill, disabled, whatever word(s) you choose to describe yourself. i have endometriosis, i've had it for years but i was only recently (officially) diagnosed, about a year and a half into the pandemic actually, because it requires major surgery. it's probably an autoimmune disorder but there's not enough scientific research to be conclusive. but i can say that (for me) it does have very real and clear effects on my immune system. so the moment vaccine research for covid was announced, i read everything i could, i learned as much as i could. the first 15 minutes of this video were things i've known since long before i could get vaccinated, which i did as fast as possible. and yet i'm also very very distrustful of medical professionals. it took me five years to find a doctor who would listen to me and take me seriously, who would genuinely care about treating my illness long term, not just making a few symptoms go away so i would get out of their office. and i'm not alone. my best friend's coworker has endometriosis and while she's scared for her safety with the virus, she's also scared for her safety with the vaccine. like me, she *has* read a lot of scientific studies on the vaccine and the virus and honestly i can't blame her for not getting vaccinated. i've been bleeding for 8 weeks straight since getting my third dose (combined with surgery in the last 4 months) and i would do it again but i understand why she doesn't want to put her body through that. quite frankly, i don't and will never sympathize with people who aren't "vulnerable" or "at risk" like me and who choose not to get the vaccine. and i understand the importance of not radicalizing them, but i can also privately despise them, because they're gambling with *my* life. but i do sympathize a lot with other immunocompromised people who are stuck between the fear of the virus and fear of the vaccine, for whatever reason, even if it's technically safe for them to get it. and of all the voluntarily unvaccinated people out there, those are the people i'm most interested in hearing from.

[@shelbymachado8712]

I agree. I think it could honestly be a follow up discussion whole cloth in its own right.

[@PhilosophyTube]

That's a fair point - I think I'll bring it up on the post mortem livestream

[@emma7933]

Both of my parents are clinically vulnerable (my Mum has type one diabetes, my Dad has had asthma since he was a child). We got covid in Nov 2020 despite us all isolating and it was really scary, my Dad got quite ill, though he recovered, and my Mum still has problems with her breathing caused by long covid. I also find it quite hard to empathise with abled people who either don't realise or don't care that by not getting the vaccine they could kill the people I love. There's also the slightly related issue of how a lot of anti vaccine arguments were popularised during the MMR scare, and as an autistic person I feel like a *lot* of the problems you see in modern day discourse around autism can be directly traced to that. In theory I can empathise with someone who "just wants to make their own choice" or whatever, but in my mind I sometimes struggle to not get mad about the fact that whether they know it or not the movement they are associated with has done a lot of damage to an already marginalised community.

[@wearawatch7352]

I'm immunocompromised myself, and I just wanted to chime in that medically there are very very few immunocompromised people who shouldn't take the vaccine. Because it's mRNA and not any kind of actual virus, it's one of the safest vaccines for immunocompromised people because there is no chance of getting sick. Most of the people I've seen saying they are immunocompromised turn out to be lying to make it sound like they have a good reason for not getting vaccinated. Of course, this isn't at all to discount the people who are actually at risk of complications if they take the vaccine, but I feel like it's oftentimes a minority that's been overblown in order for those willfully unvaccinated to say "oh but what about the immunocompromised people who can't get the vaccine! You can't require vaccines for these things because that's discrimination!" I'm quite tired of being used as a pawn. This isn't to be antagonizing you at all or saying that this is what you're doing! I just wanted to give a little more information and my two cents as someone immunosuppressed!

[@lmeeken]

I'm glad you finally found a doctor who listened. It can be life-changing. My partner has endo, and suffers from disabling chronic pain thanks to it (and other conditions), and has had so many horrible experiences with (especially male) doctors. It took her years to get a diagnosis and any sort of treatment. She was never anti-vaxx, but her experiences were so horrible with the (American) medical system that she did do an entire year of zero "traditional" medicine, and only homeopathy, "energy work," and "alternative" medicine, not because she's some dumb GOOP-reading crystal-worshipping new agey white lady, but out of fucking desperation, fear, and alienation. It was life-changing to finally meet with a gyno surgeon who actually listened to her experience of her own body.

[@milosminion]

Please do an episode on mental disability and ableism. For years nearly everyone in my life has told me I am less than human. I truly believed them until just recently and it's been an emotional journey for me. It would help me a lot to understand at least some of it on a philosophical level.

[@milosminion]

@Eric Dundee most empathetical neurotypical

[@fandomcringebucket]

​@Eric Dundee Ah yes, pshycosis, a very common diagnosis for poepel everywhere.

[@davechongle]

@EricDundeei dislike you very much. i sincerely hope you never have to deal with a disability, but it would improve your attitude and personality i think.

[@freddie.spaghetti]

that would be interesting! with ableism, there are lot of interesting things to talk about, including stuff like eugenics and a lot about how society treats disabilities (where you could also talk about things like our welfare system). it could either, like you say, focus on mental disabilities and neurodivergence or it could include disability in general. there’s also stuff like the concept of disability being relative to your circumstances and the society you live in and… aaa now i want a 2 hour video about this from abigail!

[@strawbebbiejam]

one unvaccinated nurse infected my boyfriend's entire family and other nurse coworkers and patients, I think 15 total people traced their infection back to one nurse. my boyfriend's mom almost died because of it and had to be on oxygen for weeks.

[@Not_that_Brian_Jones]

Lawsuit?

[@sophiegarrett7305]

So this family were all vaccinated but caught it anyway and gave it to everyone else. Great vaccine, really helps

[@GuiSmith]

My sister complained about having her own and some of her coworkers’ employment terminated for refusing to be vaccinated. One of those other coworkers already had started an outbreak in the assisted living facility she worked at, who likely infected her and all of her friends. They’re lucky only a handful of residents got infected, let alone traceably to any of them. This sort of thing is a load of dangerous crap but is shockingly common.

[@neothepenguin1257]

I’m so sorry :( I got COVID probably from someone in the elevator of my apartment. I was isolating and that’s the only person I was close to for a while. So unlucky. One person ruins it all

[@justalostlocal]

@@sophiegarrett7305 OR get this, they would have died, if they didn't get vaccinated. Sometimes I wonder what's going through your type's minds typing this kind of stuffs out...like families experienced near death trauma and you *have* *to* dunk on them. Man, Abigail is soooo emphatic I just couldn't.

[@iank472]

Time and again Abigail proves that talking to people and questioning their ideologies rather than targeting them personally is a far better and more effective approach. Few people ever changed their mind by being called offensive words and stupid but hopefully a few folks have reconsidered a destructive worldview due to honest, open discussion.

[@ChannelMath]

I agree, although I doubt this channel is reaching many anti-vaxxers, which may be OK since you basically just called them "destructive".

[@SeanGiles-mj7wl]

Would you be willing to have an open conversation about why the covid 19 vaccine isnt what it was promised as... and about how the world's leading scientists got so much of this pandemic wrong? If you can question someones views, they have every right and responsibility to question your views.

[@iank472]

@@SeanGiles-mj7wl I absolutely would. I would need you to start by presenting why you believe the vaccine wasn't what was promised and where members of the scientific community were wrong.

[@Brickcaster]

"Open discussion" is heavily curated. Channels like these are highly selective about what oppositional viewpoints they cover. They won't dare show a good one that stumps them! Just look at how many top level comments have less replies than advertised. The comments here are curated too. Why is that?

[@ChannelMath]

@@Brickcaster Why not try presenting a good one here and see if it gets removed? I'm not dismissing what you say at all, I'm just curious what group you mean by "Channels like these"

[@meganesia1]

As an immunocompromised fan, I thank you. I have friends and family who refuse vaccination, and quite simply: I still don’t know how to make my peace with it. I appreciate the time and care that went into this video.

[@claireleblanc5471]

I absolutely feel you! Be careful out there. I had three doses of vaccine, but with primary immunodeficiency, I still almost died of Covid. Be safe

[@claireleblanc5471]

@@Praisethesunson that’s an awful take on the situation

[@RIP_Dislike_Button]

Being that the jab doesn't stop the spread of the virus, and only serves to minimize the symptoms, what possible benefit to your safety, do you think would come from your family receiving the jab?

[@TheDelinear]

@@RIP_Dislike_Button that's a very disingenuous question. While the jab doesn't 100% stop the spread of the virus, it does massively reduce the spread. Your argument is like saying seat belts don't prevent 100% of deaths from road traffic accidents, therefore seatbelts are useless. Even just reducing spread is a huge help, both in reducing the chances of someone who is immunocompromised coming into contact with the virus in the first place, but also in reducing the stress on the health system meaning they are more likely to receive life-saving care if they are unlucky enough to catch it.

[@daianmoi8528]

@@RIP_Dislike_Button “only serves to minimize the symptoms” is factually incorrect. It causes the duration of illness to be shorter. That is a form of protection.

[@d0lvl0]

My parents were anti-vaxxers and refused to get me vaccinated for anything. I had a very hard time getting into public schools, as vaccine mandates are common nearly everywhere in my country and have been for decades. They also refused to ever take me to a doctor or get medical help for anything. I rarely ever speak with them anymore, and I wish so badly they had to face the consequences of their actions. I have no sympathy for what they put me through.

[@OfficialROZWBRAZEL]

They at least have to face the consequence of losing you.

[@z-beeblebrox]

@@OfficialROZWBRAZEL People like that never blame themselves for anything

[@alex.polychronopoulos4487]

Sympathies, but out of context

[@palakrocks007]

Smart parents. I will be like them when I grow up to have kids. Mind you, I am not anti-vaxxer. Just anti-pharma anti-allopathy :P. To know the truth, read the Flexner report and also understand species specific diet. Clogged colon and filthy lymph system is the root cause for most of the diseases. John Rose is the mann. You know when you are in for a treat.

[@hym3323]

I'm sorry you break off contact with your only family because of something so mediocre. Indeed you got divided.

[@Svengali764]

When my niece was born, we stood in long queues to get her vaccinated. India eliminated polio with vigilant vaccination. When COVID vax were available we all made appointments, as they were scarce. Hard not to be resentful when we wanted the shot but had them in stingy quantities and US had anti vaxxers spouting nonsense when multitudes were available.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

Exactly vaccines are a privilege, and privileged people are often blind to it. Privileges come at the cost of responsibilities.

[@drtg101we7]

Did you know that Western governments have bought over ten doses of the vaccine for EACH citizen? Why shift the responsibility onto individuals and their bodily autonomy?

[@dannyeisenga]

@@drtg101we7 For the same reason we can criticize food waste in the west, even when there is more than we need?

[@drtg101we7]

@@dannyeisenga Is there three times more food than all of us could ever consume out there? I doubt so. Vaccinated or unvaccinated, you're still wasting seven shots that could be used in places that need it desperately. All in order to line up the pockets of Pfizer and co

[@andreww9513]

@@drtg101we7 Because Western governments bought them knowing there would be hesitation, and knowing that each batch had a short shelf life. Better to over-purchase for your voters and have wasted doses, than to have your voters not have them when they want them. At least, that's probably how Western politicians calculate it... I'm not saying it's right, in fact I'm saying quite the opposite, but this is the kind of bullshit our politicians think of while posturing at the expense of nations with less money. Those vaccines should've gone to where they were most likely to be used before expiring, not based on how rich a country is...

[@greedbun]

I really appreciate this insight, and it made me think. It's so easy to just villainize people who differ not just from our opinions, but experiences overall. And I've noticed social media has created a lot of animosity between strangers. Seeing success from educational seminars regarding the vaccine with my own eyes, I think voluntarily unvaccinated people could benefit from community and educated spaces, that are welcoming, and free of judgement. Because yeah, as we see time and time again, belittling people goes absolutely nowhere. You are not superior because you hold a certain ideal or may be considered more educated.

[@WrensRemarks]

I found this video incredibly frustrating to watch as a disabled person, especially listening to the reasons why people choose not to get vaccinated. Nearly every concern these people have is something disabled people already deal with, but in a way that affects our actual physical and mental health, not just in the abstract. Disabled people understand these problems better than most, but no one listens because we're seen as disposable if not a burden on society. It's also worth pointing out that many of these objections to getting vaccinated are blatantly ableist (looking at you, Self Improvement Steve). These people not only fail to see themselves enmeshed in a larger web of society, they fail to see themselves as humans that can fall sick and become disabled at any time, which is a real concern of getting Covid that isn't talked about enough.

[@8lec_R]

Thank you for sharing this, disabled people rarely share their opinions, it's very important cuz, we able-bodied people inevitably hurt you, without ever realising. I'd like to learn more so we can learn to treat you people better

[@EmeraldLavigne]

@@8lec_R disabled people frequently do, tho? You just haven't seen them? Look on disability Twitter...

[@8lec_R]

@@EmeraldLavigne i don't use Twitter. Just KZbin. And real life. Like bro, no one speaks about this shit IRL.

[@dg674]

All ability is a fragile, temporary miracle. I didn't realize until I became disabled how invincible most people believe they are.

[@marietailor3100]

Hear, hear! I’m in my 20s and I love my friends and family all the more for taking care of themselves to protect me. Like self improvement Steve, many of them are healthy and fit (even I LOOK healthy and fit to most) and unlikely to suffer major consequences. But even if they had concerns (many of them had the same concerns - too rushed, big pharma, etc), they got it anyway because they wanted to do everything that they could do to protect others including and especially me. Nonetheless, Omicron hit and a bunch of young, healthy people I know got it. Some of them had symptoms for months. I finally got it myself after having been boosted and I STILL got pneumonia, had a flare-up, and the meds I had to take to fight that part slowed my immune system down so much that I got the worst sinus infection of my life. As a result, since the start of the year, I’ve had to add 6 different prescription medications to my life and have been sick everyday of 2022 thus far. All that is to say that I also think some people underestimate how debilitating ambulatory disability can be whether temporary or permanent. Death isn’t the only negative consequence.

[@1BlueScreenOfDeath1]

"vote with your dollar means people with no dollars get no votes" is absolutely ripper, need to use that more often

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

And people with a lot of dollars get a lot of votes.

[@michaelfradley6950]

Yeah the fact that “vote with your dollar” is still an idea when we have rampant income inequality is a joke. Vote with your body and your voice. At least all of us only get one of those.

[@mackenziegoodwin459]

Yes! This is the heart of the "money = speech= first amendment rights" line of cases at the U.S. Supreme Court, culminating in the Citizen's United decision.

[@ThrottleKitty]

I actually didn't get the vaccine until 8 months after I could! But, I had a severe allergic reaction to the MMR shot as a child that almost killed me, and I've never taken a vaccine sense. I have always acted like I have a compromised immune system, despite having a pretty healthy one. So when it came to the Covid vaccine, I finally got it when I found myself thinking "Death by allergic reaction would be quicker and less painful at least". Luckily, I didn't die!

[@PirateQueen1720]

I have niece whose been dealing with something similar. She's terrified of needles (though I'm not sure why; there wasn't a clear traumatic experience like yours) and it took her ages to get just the first shot because she'd get into the clinic and panic and her parents would have to take her home. And she was really embarrassed, because even her younger brother had gotten it, but just couldn't get over that psychological hurdle. It didn't help that this was in Canada, where they have these specialized covid vaccination clinics where everyone is supposed to go instead of going to their primary care physician - great for overall efficiency of vaccine distribution, not so great if the prospect of having a meltdown in front of a crowd makes you even more nervous!

[@tedculbertson6320]

Have you had a doctor diagnose your allergy? I would hope that they could figure out exactly which component of the vaccine gave you that reaction and tell you which vaccines are safe for you. That would really suck if you just knew some component of vaccines could kill you but you didn't know which. Glad you didn't die!

[@NethDugan]

I hope they figured out your allergy so you can look out for it in the future in any situation. I know people with egg allergies traditionally can't have flu jabs though I think that is slowly changing. It's worth noting different vaccine are mad different ways. So it's worth narrowing down your allergy as you may be able to get other vaccines. And there may be some medicines you should avoid. Good luck. I'm glad you safely got the vaccine.

[@ThrottleKitty]

@@tedculbertson6320 I described my reaction to the doctor who gave me the covid vaccine, and she seemed pretty confident the thing I was allergic to wasn't in this vaccine.

[@ThrottleKitty]

@Martin Øverby Yeah, I'm not allergic to any foods at all. But I am allergic to a lot of antibiotics too. Or at least was, when I was young. It's been ages since I've had a reaction.

[@mostlymartha1395]

Not to be shallow, but about your hint at 00:13 - very nice job, subtle, almost unnoticeable if you hadn't mentioned it...

[@EmeraldLavigne]

"Maybe am I doing a bad thing [by working as a carer for 109 people and not getting vaccinated against a highly-spreadable pandemic]?" Gee. So damn close.

[@jmantson]

​I love the ending CCs! It's so cool to hear more about the process and your life. I wish you had an IG to see more of your personal life. Great job on the video, too! Love how you took the time and effort to understand the voluntarily unvaccinated and extend empathy, while still arguing for the importance of getting vaccinated.

[@thewittyusername]

Given how parasocial relationships work and how often Abigail has been harassed online and in person, for her sanity and safety I hope she never shares anymore than she already does.

[@jmantson]

@@thewittyusername Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Just as a fellow creative, person who loves to think deeply about topics, and has questions about their gender, those few glimpses have been really valuable and encouraging.

[@edjc]

thank you so much for this video abi. as the daughter of someone who is anti-vaxx (and still a minor so can’t get vaccines without my mums consent) this is a very personal topic for me. im 16 and very much pro-vaccine but unvaccinated (apart from for covid, which i’ll explain, and a couple booster jabs i got in school after many fights with my mum) i feel the effect of anti-vaxxers on their children really isn’t discussed enough also. i’ve never told any of my friends that my mum is anti-vaxx because i don’t what them to judge me or her (not that she shouldn’t be, but she doesn’t fit the common conception of an anti-vaxxer so the judgement would probably be unfair) and am worried i’d be seen as a risk to be around and so would be socially outcast. it’s horrible because it’s incredibly isolating not having anyone i can vent to about this, reading comments from a few people in similar situations under this video has been the first time i’ve seen this expressed. it’s also terrifying because i know that if i catch any diseases preventable for vaccines, i could be seriously ill or die, and my mother would be the reason why. im incredibly lucky to have not had anything yet - if you asked my mum this would be as vaccines are unnecessary for ‘healthy’ people, but it’s literally just heard immunity and luck. my mum doesn’t fit either the sort of “crazy conspiracy theorist” or the “only against the covid vaccine” tropes perfectly. she is pretty adamantly against all vaccines, apart from the covid vaccine (which i feel is probably only because she can see concretely before her eyes that covid is real and actually a threat. she was working in hospitals at the start of the pandemic and so it’s hard for her to deny it’s severity like she does for other diseases). her stance doesn’t stem from one particular source as far as i can tell, in every argument (because she’s never civil) i’ve had with her over vaccines, she always changes her reasoning after i explain why her last argument was wrong. as she actually has some scientific knowledge about vaccines it’s incredibly frustrating to talk to her as she isn’t extreme enough (at least in how she states things) to dismiss as a laughable conspiracy theorist, but she still believes a lot of what they say. like how she doesn’t think that it’s NOT true that vaccines cause autism, even when i explain to her where that myth comes from, she’ll say things like ‘but we don’t really know’ (edit: i know that there is a lot of science disproving the vaccines cause autism claim, the point is that my mum does not want to listen). the two biggest parts of her arguments though do tend to be that she thinks vaccines just don’t work (or don’t work as well as ‘proper natural antibodies’) or the belief that if you’re healthy, then no disease can harm you (she’s literally denied polio as a danger), with no care about how being voluntarily unvaccinated puts people who can’t get vaccines for health reasons at much more risk. i honestly struggle to have discussions about vaccines because it’s a very close to home issue for me. when i’m talking about it to family members i just get laughed at for being ‘too passionate’ so with strangers or people who don’t know my situation, i admittedly have very little patience or sympathy, which i know is an issue. although i still think it’s highly unlikely anything could change the minds of people who have thought this way for decades like my mum (‘anti-vaxx’ becomes a part of their identity and to rethink it would be to reconstruct their whole identity), this video does a very good job at humanising people who choose to not get vaccines. i feel a lot of people who aren’t close to any anti-vaxxers could gain a lot of perspective and sympathy from this. i know that this is a pretty unpopular view, but i honestly wish all vaccines were mandatory unless medically exempt, or you plan to live in the middle of nowhere separate from the rest of society. being anti-vaxx isn’t just a decision that effects that individual, but anyone they interact with, and their children who have to live in terror of catching deadly illnesses.

[@iamnohere]

I: Gods, that sounds terrible to have to deal with. Much patience and health to you 🫂

[@andrewhannaford2995]

If you’re able to go to a GP by yourself (which I believe you should be able to do at 16) you should be able to request any vaccines you missed out on based on gillick competency (basically that you are mentally sound and mature enough to consent to medical stuff without involving parents, it’s the reason why you’re able to get birth control without parents being involved).

[@makimaistrash]

I was also raised by an anti vaxx mom I know your struggle. When I turned 18 I went to my doctor and asked for everything. If it brings you any solace, all of the vaccines work just as fine when we're older. I was able to go through the entire series and now I'm protected. It did take a couple years because some have to be spaced apart. Good luck

[@gorillaguerillaDK]

But, we do know that vaccines doesn't cause autism. We can look at the numbers of vaccinated who gets diagnosed with ASD and unvaccinated who get diagnosed with ASD There's so many studies on the issue by now, all concluding that vaccines and ASD is unrelated... We also know a lot more about what causes Autism now than we used to - and the factor of heritability is significantly high. Same goes for ADHD! I get that it's hard to fight your mom on this - and it's extremely hard to debate with people who know a small bit, but not enough to realize how much they lack understanding of... I wish you the best of luck!!!

[@bre9538]

this is a very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing!

[@sophiekrueger4719]

My dad is old enough that one of the girls he went to elementary school with had her legs permanently messed up by polio, some of my other relatives are old enough that they tell stories of siblings, cousins, and friends who died during their childhood from things we can solve easily enough today. Back when he was younger too, there was a huge public push for vaccines and most people got them, it's sad to see how that forward push towards health has been so backpedaled on by so many different things.

[@sithwolf8017]

If this level of antivax sentiment was prevalent back then we'd still have smallpox running and rabies would still be a death sentence.

[@TheRonster1957]

@@sithwolf8017 Most infectious diseases were in decline by te time vaccines turned up. Clean water, sanitation, reasonable living conditions and nutrition are more important than vaccines.

[@sithwolf8017]

@@TheRonster1957 so why are diseases currently dropping in third world countries that have vaccination programs while at the same time having poor or nonexistent sanitation services? How did we eradicate smallpox in these third world countries?

[@TheRonster1957]

​@@sithwolf8017 Do you have any examples of disease decline in third world countries absent improved sanitation? Western countries had major improvements of sanitation and nutrition in the first half of the 20th century at the same time that infectious diseases were drastically declining. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but doesn't preclude it either. For example, in Melbourne Australia(along with all other major ciries here) we didn't have flush toilets till the 1960's. Till then there was a system of 'night carts', where 10 gallon cans of sewage was physically emptied into a tank on the cart, usually at night, hence the name.

[@sithwolf8017]

@Ron Mortimer Africa during the 80s had over a million cases of measles per year. Fast forward to the 2010s and there are ~70,000 cases per year. Also here's an interesting little fact. In the Americas the amount of measles cases was around 60 in 2005. Fast forward a decade later and they rose to above 10,000 cases. Now for a region that boasts fantastic sanitation services how did that spike occur? Could their sanitation services have failed or was it because parents stopped vaccinating their kids?

[@stevenfraielli9869]

Honestly really appreciate this video cause it didn't create anti-vaxer straw man arguments. I'm one of the "smooth brains" that didn't get the vaccine yet because of several reasons mentioned. (Just the first two reasons, really) listed in this video. But the counter arguments made here were rational and logical. I think I will get it next week. Edit: Just an update because some people asked. I did get the vaccine today at a local Walgreens. I want to thank everyone for their words of encouragement and acceptance that I didn't get the vaccine for so long due to legitimate concerns. That was honestly the thing that tipped the scales and made me get it. (I got the moderna cause they were out of pfizer.) I feel a little crappy, but I know that's a side effect of it, but I have the next couple days off so I can climb in bed and ride it out. No worries. :3 Philosophytube I want you to know if you're reading this that your videos do really make a difference in the minds of people. So thank you for making such smart, level headed videos to inform people.

[@jwg72]

It is still possible to get it this time :) It is possible to get re-infected as well, and there is evidence that the vaccines provide better immunity to re-infection. So it might still be worth researching and seeking out.

[@otacon8225]

Well done Steven. And well done Abi.

[@marshm3llow467]

Wow, I'm so glad that you've come around! And don't be too hard on yourself. What matters is that you've looked at things logically and made a sound decision now. What you're going to do is something that will help lots of people (including you!) stay safe, and it's something to be really proud of.

[@adamgreene187]

I mentioned this on her patreon, but at first I wanted her to attack the unvaccinated. By the end I had completely changed my opinion, and damn her for making me be all rational and even-tempered about these things!

[@ameliecarre4783]

And it's a shame that these arguments didn't reach you before because they have been available for over a year. Of course they were very quickly hidden under piles or trolling and arguing which made them harder to hear.

[@linseyspolidoro5122]

Years ago I went to a rehab center and while being admitted you had to get tested for TB, Hep A, B, & C, HIV, etc. Even though we were tested for it, I had no idea that TB was still.... a threat, at least within the states. Well, for the test you have to check back after a few days and see if your skin was inflamed where they had tested. One of the other patients just neglected to mention his wrist being totally inflamed at the test site. Yeah, he had TB, so we all had to get re-tested. Before that I always thought about TB in the context of like, consumption. You know like the Victorian romanticism of sickness and frailty, how the aesthetic of wasting away (due to the TB epidemic) influenced the fashion, etc. So it honestly blew my mind that we would still have to worry about getting TB.

[@kattkatt744]

TB is going to come back in a big way if we do not deal with antibiotic resistance. Multi-resistant TB is a big killer among poor people in Russia and is not a very nice way to die.

[@claireleblanc5471]

Wait until you find out about plague! I know, it feels all old timey and that it can’t be around anymore, but there are dark corners where it lives and spreads. I also hope the rehab centre worked out well for you

[@mcwjes]

I used to feel similarly about whooping cough until it shut down the fancy schools in Washington State.

[@TheSlipperyNUwUdle]

One of my closest friends in high school’s mom got TB. She never specified what time range it was she caught it, but our moms are in their mid 50s. So any age within the last 50 years would have been when she had it. Apparently it was pretty rough on her body.

[@Nixed_66]

I live in the UK and a girl in my town died of TB related meningitis this year! My mind was blown, like you I just didn't think it was a concern given modern medicine.

[@emilylerman9028]

In my opinion, there should be more hatred towards the corporations and entities that profit off of the spread of misinformation than the people who get caught in the middle.

[@magdalenposada4127]

“Wealth should be created by investing to create more wealth. Income is the fruit of wealth. If you do not do that, you will not have more income.”

[@alexmontrey5372]

Am hoping on you can explain more on how you make extra income from investments

[@cryptocasey1083]

Anyone who is not investing now is missing a tremendous opportunity.

[@mav3420]

This is awesome, please can you be of an assistance to me how can I connect with your broker?

[@michaelcollins1220]

@Casino Şimşek I think you should consider being a KZbinr and have your own channel. You share some good tips for strategic investments.

[@mav3420]

@Casino Şimşek I'm keen on trying this out. Thank you all for the information

[@Ramschat]

Great work! I find especially the self-improvement Steve's highly annoying, it's like they're arguing that the dead just had a 'bad lifestyle'

[@ChocolateBuono]

10:36 - just wanted to expand on this a little, because even before COVID, I often saw people raise this question ("why don't we have a vaccine or a cure for xyz?"). The truth is, diseases like Alzheimer's, cancer, Parkinson's or MS are materially different types of disease from infectious disease. Most notably.....we often don't have a very good understanding of what brings them about. Sure, we know cancers manifest in abnormal and uncontrolled cell growth, and that certain things contribute to the risk of this occurring, but the actual underlying causes are extremely complex and not yet fully understood - and that's without getting into the various types of cancers. There's been fierce, decades-long debate over even the basic neuropathology of Alzheimer's, about what's actually happening in the brain to result in the physical and behavioural changes that we see. In contrast, we understand how infections like COVID work quite well, and (this is important) what to specifically target to improve our body's response to them. It's a lot easier to prevent or treat an illness when you understand what's causing it. (As a side-note: as mentioned in the video, we actually *do* have some vaccines for cancer! The HPV vaccine is an example - it works because the specific kinds of cancer it prevents are caused by infection with certain types of human papillomavirus (warts). The hepatitis B vaccine for liver cancer is also an example. Notably, though, these vaccines only work because these types of cancers are often (not always) caused by (onco)viruses and we know how to train the immune system to recognise that kind of virus - just like with COVID.)

[@ohauss]

Most importantly, diseases like cancer and Alzheimer involve molecules and cells that are native to our bodies. They are different only in minimal aspects. To make a vaccine against them is extremely difficult, because the fact that the differences are small means that such vaccines might target the healthy versions as well. Anyone with an auto-immune disease can tell you it's no fun if the immune system reacts to healthy parts of your body. A virus, on the other hand, is alien to the body and evolutionarily unrelated. The probability that there's something similar in our body is slim to nil. So coming up with vaccines is significantly easier). Hence also why we do have the HPC vaccine which PREVENTS cancer by preventing the viral infection causing it, whereas vaccines against manifest cancer are still experimental - but they're working on them. Breast cancer vaccines are already in trials - and the company which developed the first mRNA vaccine for COVID had actually been working on cancer vaccines before COVID came along and they jumped at the opportunity to prove the principle. Now they've turned back to cancer and given the resources they now have thanks to COVID, I'm pretty optimistic they can push that field forward significantly.

[@tadferd4340]

Special note to pathogenic diseases that don't have a vaccine like HIV. It mutates far too quickly for a vaccine to be effective, something we were concerned about with Covid19. HIV mutates so fast, you can actually get multiple simultaneous infections.

[@aaronh1372]

"extremely complex and not entirely understood." Exactly. If they were simple and understood completely then death would not exist. We would have the key to life and live forever. We will never understand medical science completely. Which is why antivaxers will always have a justifiable leg to stand on. Science has many answers but not all of em. Science itself recognizes it's own flaws, like the observer effect. However, science cannot be done without an observer. It is a catch-22. Until there is a new method of observation, we will travel down this rabbit hole.

[@takutolovex]

My first reaction the vaccine was also this, but it's not hard to understand how a super deadly virus would get all the funding in the world, since the impact was so huge. Also if you just weigh the pros and cons of getting vaccinated (aka protecting other people around you who are weaker or can't take the vaccine), the 'choice' was reaaaally easy for me. Cancer and Alzheimers etc are not contagious, so there's no 'rush' even if we know how it works. Same goes for diseases like TBC and Ebola that only go rampant in third world countries.

[@SharienGaming]

since you mentioned cancer and vaccination: another fascinating thing that caused the vaccines to happen so fast was that the mRNA vaccines actually are a result of cancer research... they were intended for treatments there, but they also were a means to very fast development and manufacture of vaccines in general

[@Rissa_1322]

I appreciate your restraint in letting them talk. I woulda lost my shit at "I don't wanna be criticized for not having it". FREEDOM OF CHOICE means you get to pick one or the other. It does not mean nobody gets to have opinions about what you decided.

[@Curtis006]

Same. Unvaxxed still feeling like they’re the marginalized and victimized, when they’re the victimizers who’ve been allowed to infect and kill with near impunity and throw a fit when any measure is taken to save lives. Right from the get-go we had people coughing on others with disdain just to show how how untrusting they were of media coverage. I get that shaming them doesn’t change their mind, but neither does evidence, neither does appealing to a sense of morality, duty, community, or humanity… but I’m only human too. Why is the proposal always that we just have to be the bigger person? How long do we have to coddle an adult with a toddler’s mentality before they’ll stop willfully destroying peoples lives? At what point do we get to say “you are responsible, and your negligence makes you unfit”?

[@Rissa_1322]

@@Curtis006 you've misread the intent of my comment quite badly. It's your right to come in with this energy despite the intent of the video you're commenting under and the pains it took to be compassionate, but I want no part in it. There are plenty of places on the internet where you can go if you want to call them killers. My comment was about a minor pet peeve. I understand and empathize with your feelings on this, and I even agree, in essence, but I don't think we need to associate. Abby went out of her way to point out that speaking to and about them like this (leaving aside that the people in this video are not even anti-vaxxers in the traditional sense) does nothing but cause them to dig their heels in, which is less a feature of covid skepticism than it is a feature of human psychology. Now, if you don't care about that, fine. Obviously, I understand that, in this context, and I guess I'll concede that my comment was also a rant of sorts, but I think there is a significant difference in scope between yours and mine.

[@Curtis006]

@@Rissa_1322 Fair enough, I just needed to vent

[@marocat4749]

I would say more stop being a baby, you dont even have to like it, but there is no reason not to and every reason to,it helps, covid has often horrid aftereffects too, that are nearly zero with s vaxxine. And its harmless, like chances are higher to get hit by a car, and is that a reason, to avoid every traffic, and thats nothing to the extremely very rare, nealy anything kills people more, also water kills people, food, kills people. And its redicilous rare that any of that ever happened, seriously cases named are with certainty unrelated or just freak accidents. But then do you drink water, afzer sll the people water killed?! Also idf you dont want rediculed as a baby, dont be a baby and you dont have to love anything, that is not personal. No one likes needes but man up. And yes children die and continue to die still from it.

[@Copperhell144]

@@raythink If they took every measure they could to prevent the infection, no. If they haven't, then yes.

[@dawidsagan]

Hey Abigail, what is your opion after that one year? Do you disagree with people's scepitcism towards government pushing restrictions on them. Especially I'm talking about Matt Hancock's attempts to frighten public what has been exposed in his Whatsapp messeges.

[@LittleMissLounge]

Normally, I click on Abigail's videos as soon as I see them. This time it took me a couple of days because this subject enrages me nearly every day of my life. I work in a healthcare setting (not on the front lines, thank God) and the sheer idiocy I'm forced to listen to about the vaccine has had an adverse effect on my mental health and any hope I might've had about this pandemic ending.

[@Zosio]

I had to quit the med field (optometry) because I couldn't stomach the indifference towards it all anymore. My former office manager allowed a patient to stay and be seen despite him coughing his lungs out in the waiting room, being belligerent about wearing a mask, and even said he had been involved in a recent covid exposure. I made it clear that it would be irresponsible as hell to see the patient (it's optometry; we're not treating covid patients,) but that fell on deaf ears. I walked out and never came back. I can't imagine how many people have similar stories. Years of medical experience expertise tossed out the window because of how unnecessarily contentious and heated everything was. I can't even count the number of times I was screamed at by patients after politely reminding them that they needed to wear their mask *in a medical facility.* Tl;Dr: I'm sorry that you've had to endure this insane level of stress. You don't deserve it. I hope that life will offer you the time and space you need to breathe and recover from the damage that's been inflicted on you.

[@origamiandcats6873]

@Severin Slightlee, even before Covid I would have thought it was unacceptable. Symptomatic people should stay home.

[@Memento_Mori_Morals]

@@origamiandcats6873 Symptomatic people who are willingly unvaxxed generally just seem so narcissistic that they fail to even be able to comprehend the actual science of vaccines and illnesses. As an ex pharm worker this pisses me off, but I was just lucky I stopped working before the pandemic, cause it is so much worse now. It's heartbreaking when people are sick from unpreventable things, but I still can't fathom why anyone would WILLINGLY not vaccinate unless they've had a privileged and sheltered life. (like they def have not seen death lol)

[@juniperfox1064]

@@Memento_Mori_Morals I’ll first say I vaccinated without hesitation. Still, I disagree completely with the idea that people are sheltered if they refuse it. Did you even watch this video? A lot of people who are in the more difficult positions in society are hesitant for those exact reasons, and people talking like you are does not help at ALL. It pushes people from a place of “hmm I don’t really want to get it but it isnt that big of a deal to me - and maybe I’ll think about it..” to “okay fuck you guys, I’m not going to do what you tell me just because you throw insults at my character.”

[@cheesebread3]

@@nikkismith0308 did u even watch the video before commenting

[@luanabastos4937]

I'm Brazilian. You see, at the beginning of the 20th century, Brazil suffered from an outbreak of smallpox, and vaccines became mandatory for everyone over 06 months of age. People did not react well to this imposition, though: they felt they had the right to preserve their own bodies and not accept that "substance of unknown origins". So, the Anti-vaccine uprising began. In Rio de Janeiro, public health officials, accompanied by the police force, would raid civilian homes and forcibly vaccinate people. Things escalated quickly, and soon the citizens were protesting in the streets, violently confronting the police, opposing the government and the opinions of health professionals. Sounds familiar, right? I remember reading about this years ago in high school and thinking, "God, these people were fools. I'm glad nowadays we're well informed". And then the pandemic started. The thing is, in this era, we have access to lots of information. So much information, actually, that it becomes hard to filter reliable sources. Speaking from a Brazilian point of view, it's scary how many adults still fall for blatant fake news, and would rather believe those than what's broadcasted on "tradicional media". History is repeating itself, but with a twist: we have all this science, all this information, and still we can't figure out how to convey this in a clear and accessible way to the entire population. People don't trust science, and that's a big problem. Over these past couple years, I've learned that it's useless to try and pick a fight with anti-vaxxers. You get frustrated, they become defensive, and that doesn't help. Nowadays I try to listen and understand what is it that makes them so hesitant about vaccines. And only if I notice an opening, I will offer my own arguments and sources. Doesn't always work, but sure beats my first instinct - that is to grab the person by the shoulders and give them a hard shake.

[@fxls5300]

a charge da revolta da vacina... só quem viveu sabe

[@luanabastos4937]

@@fxls5300 Aquela de todo mundo sendo atravessado pela vacina, né? Kkkkkk Livros de história de toda geração

[@andreww9513]

That's the best way to do it. You don't reach them by creating distance, you reach them by letting them be heard and finding the hole in their logic. It's like cult deprogramming... :(

[@mrmuffins9797]

are you saying the police should force people to Vaccinate in America, or that it would lead to an uprising, if it did?

[@xhugod]

Ur so right, and I'd like to add something. It's not only the lack of reliable sources of information causing ppl not to get vaccinated here. The fanatism of bolsonaro's voters plays a considerable part in this case. His mob doesn't give a fuck about science, they just want to follow their leader no matter what. He is a political leader that publicly speaks against vaccines with no scientifical evidence to fundament what he says because he knows that his followers will do anything he wants. When his followers are confronted with facts by ppl in their daily lives , they come up with excuses on their own just to remain loyal to their leader and with that misinformation arises, they become vectors of misinformation. I think the problem here is not only that ppl can't trust science anymore, but that lots of them choose to ignore it for loyalty to their president.

[@ebonyblack4563]

Idk if it might help those trying to convince anybody who's not vaxxed, but with my family my gushing about the technology of the vaccine seemed to help. I'd been looking into the work on a broader style flu vaxx long before covid; so I'd had some knowledge of mRNA type vaccines, which helped me have a jump point for how I understood the tech. After a session of info-dumping, in the same way I do any subject I'm enthusiastic about, around half my family tended to change stance. No idea if that'll help anybody else, but best of luck.

[@oryx_85]

Do you think this personal experience was related to the trust issue from the video? Maybe coming from you and seeing your excitement about the technology of the vaccine was more what convinced them vs the information you gave them. They know you and what reactions you have to things you are excited about. So your enthusiasm for the vaccine seemed more legitimate to them than reading the info themselves.

[@ebonyblack4563]

@@oryx_85 Most definitely.

[@vihmaussivenitaja]

Haha, I'm kind of the same, gushing about the vaccines a lot. I just like reading about science - I mean, it's right there, just open researchgate! I actually did read up about the vaccines before getting them, and also about the approval and trial processes. And the science behind the mRNA vaccines IS truly amazing. Luckily though I didn't have close relatives or friends to have to persuade. My best friend has turned to me to get arguments though, to argue with her antivax brother. He still hasn't had it, which is horrible, because he has a toddler and a small baby, who cannot get vaccinated yet (the smaller might have antibodies from mom, hopefully). And small kids are at risk of getting multysystem inflammatory syndrome post covid, which can be deadly if not treated in time.

[@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice]

@@oryx_85 I can also confirm this is true. I got the vaccine immediately because my mother is really diligent in keeping up with various news sources during crisis, and she knew everything about all the vaccines at any point in the development of the situation and could give me specific recommendations of how and when to get them, and background info about each. Having info is one thing, but having mom's opinion really helped me contextualize it. Every time she would call me, she would be like "By the way, the CDC is saying that...." or "Did you hear about the new variant?" etc. My mental processing isn't always great, and I don't always take my mom seriously, but I know how she filters information, so at the very least I know what info to look up after talking to her.

[@ebonyblack4563]

@@vihmaussivenitaja It's incredible. I wish people had embraced it.

[@Kaenif]

This is the best thing I've watched in a while! Understanding people is difficult, and you have done a brilliant job at portraying what these people think and what we can do about it. Also that humor aaaaaaaaaaa

[@qnkendra1523]

I did get the vaccine but only because in my area "my group" was one of the later ones. I feel some guilt about the earlier people being the test subjects because it was so rapidly rolled out. One of my primary reasons for being so anxious and nervous about the new vaccine was from my experience 20 years ago trying to get treated for a series of problems caused by my birth control. I spent an extra year on the medication even though I asked about it early in because of the 3 month cycle of my symptoms getting worse and better exactly correlated to my shot cycle and I had been told by my aunt when I started the medication not to get the implant because of problems so after a few years when I saw that I was like well shoot maybe this is like that. I was belittled by my doctor, I was told it was all in my head, so many things I was doing wrong. 10 years later I was still having effects from it because the medication caused permanent changes in how my body processes hormones, even my natural ones and I started to see late night info lawsuit commercials about the effects of my exact medication on women's bodies. Knowing the past, knowing the history doesn't give some of us trust in the medical community. For a less personal example look up the history of the birth control pill- you will never think about the iconized Sanger the same way.

[@charlottesghost2845]

Sanger is far from 'iconized'. It's well known throughout he pro-choice movement that she was a eugenicist. Nevertheless, her impact on women's health solidified her place in history. It's just sad the experimentation did not end with her and I'm sorry that happened to you.

[@kieron82]

Yep, medical history and corporate pharma do not inspire confidence in anyone, especially when a lot of doc poo poo anyone who brings up issues or side effects with any meds, took me 30 years to get onto hrt to get the correct hormones for my system since my body produced one set and my brain wanted another...

[@NethDugan]

I was in the clinical trial for one of the covid vaccines, I work in a medical lab and the word went around and a lot of us already working on covid signed up. We want this all to end, we wanted a vaccine as soon as possible, and some felt a sense of duty to do all we could. From lab manager to senior scientists to lab techs to admin. A bunch of us took part and I am so proud of that. So it gets me when people go and say it wasn't tested. It was. I was a guinea pig. A comment on long term side effects - almost every side effect from a vaccine turns up within a couple months. And there were enough volunteers well beyond that time that anything big and likely would have turned up. And with the number of people vaccinated now? We'd know about it big time. But it's safe. Safer than birth control. I'll admit I get frustrated. There were bunch of anti-vaxx protesters that were harassing folk in a store I was in and I kinda couldn't help from shouting back at them. I'm tired. I'm stressed. I'm tired. And this gets my goat. Though those protester folks are probably a different group than most of those you interviewed, I do thank you for this vid in helping me see non vaccinated people more complexly. But I have to say, I have zero issue making those who care/treat vulnerable people get vaccinated. You have a duty of care. You may care about those people emotionally all you like but you have a duty of care for their life. And you need to respect that. When you sign up for some jobs you know there's a standard you'll be held to that you won't in others. And making sure your body is less likely to host a germ and pass it onto vulnerable people is one of those. Vaccinating public health workers is not new. I've had more than most and I don't even interact with patients (just things produced by them or sampled from them). I sometimes think we as a country too often forget about the importance of community and that we all impact each other and a duty to each other. And I hope folk think on that more when contemplating vaccines, that it isn't just about one person. It's about all of us as a collective too.

[@dodorus966]

If it can reassure you, dealing with people like you from the other side is very frustrating too. Seeing you use the «vaccine side effects mostly turn up a couple month after» for vaccines that everyone knows to be structured differently from classical vaccines is mind-boggling.

[@AnderGdeT]

@@dodorus966 The issue there is... that the stranger the claim (and the more unproven assumptions it needs) the heavier the burden of proof is. And there is no evidence at all that mRNA stays undegraded in your body for more than a few days. The biology of mRNA has been known for decades, and we know how it behaves. So... the thing is, the safety of vaccines has been proven. Hundreds of millions of people have been vaccinated with the main vaccines. There are side effects, some of them quite serious, but we know that those also happen (actually many times as intense) with the actual disease. Put in that perspective, the side effects have been minuscule, a statistical footnote. The burden of proof now falls into the "there may be long-term effects" claims. One year into the massive vaccination campaing, there's no data in fertility loss, long term side effects, no new side effects... Again, in a sample of hundreds of millions.

[@CassandraForAGlobalTroy]

@@dodorus966 This is based on an incomplete understanding of how the vaccine does what it does. Making the claim that "we don't _know_ that it is the case that this vaccine is like others" still requires you to structure your proposed risk case based on actual potential mechanisms. We know what an MRNA vaccine does - it injects a set of MRNA into the body which cells use to replicate a copy of the protein spike of a virus _once_. After that, the MRNA and the viral spike are gone. What remains is memory cells, and the vaccine doesn't cause memory cells to behave differently. So if you propose that the vaccine could have long-term effects, you need to justify that proposal, and not just advance a claim without justification. What you're doing here, privileging the potential unknown without meaningfully defining its scope, is a classic logical fault in human cognition.

[@AnderGdeT]

I was in the Curevac trials. I had quite strong side effects, much stronger than the ones I had with my Pfizer shots afterwards. Curevac ended up not being approved, due to the low protection and strong side effects. I'd do it over and over again. I felt it was my duty, as a citizen of a country, EU and community that has given me free healthcare, free education, infrastructure... all my life. If my contribution serves, even a tiny bit, to the development of better treatments and a safer life for people around me, then count me in. I find it quite untasteful, the point of view of "I'll wait and see if it's safe long term". Who do they think it's testing that? Their neighbour is. Their friends are. What they're really saying is: let those sheeps try it on themselves (and protect me in the process, accelerate a return to normal... things that I'll also benefit from btw) and if it's okay then I'll go as well. I do agree with the points Abigail made in this video, but I can't help feeling that this stance is cowardly and selfish.

[@kattkatt744]

@@dodorus966 I do not know what you real problem is, but I sure as h... know people like you who claim to be about the medical concerns are just lying allus other people straight up in the face. If it really was about the medical concern people like you should have stopped harping about this a long time ago. It should have been enough for you to know that mRNA vaccines had alredy been reasearched for years, they where literally just waiting to to human triels with them when covid came around. It was a supreme strick of luck that the mRNA technology was at that point in its development when corona turned up. It should also be enought for people like you that anything being approved for human trials must be very very safe before they even start and it should be enough for you to know that usually it will take anything between half and one and an half year from you have everything ready to go for a trial until you even get it in front of a etichal comity for final approval while mRNA and alle the vaccines relying on the old vaccine technology got to jump the queue and basically have zero wait time from trial design finished to comity approval to starting the study. That last bit is so unheard of in research circles it was incedible to watch how fast something can happen when you get tones of money and no grueling waiting. The only other similar thing I can think about the race for the moon. Enormous technological leaps in short time just because somebody with very real powers decided it need to be done as fast as physically possible. But it isn't really about the science for people like you is it? The science concern is just a something to hide whatever illogical real reason you have for being so scared of this achievement is.

[@wearawatch7352]

I agree that isolating those willfully unvaciated doesn't help anything, but I find it quite difficult to have compassion sometimes. One problem I almost always come up against with those who are willfully unvaccinated is that I hear the argument that "only people who are already sick will die from COVID so it doesn't matter anyway!" I personally am immunosuppressed and have multiple medical conditions and it's honestly really hard to spend time around people who have indirectly (and sometimes even directly) say they don't care if I die. There have been multiple family members I was going to see these past few years who told me while I was on my way that "oh also sorry we didn't mention it until now but I was just around someone with COVID even though I told you I had been quarantining for the past couple weeks" followed up by a quick "but don't worry only those sick people have problems with COVID anyway". Or family members who lied about their vaccination status to convince me to visit knowing perfectly well that COVID could kill me but they were "lonely" and "missed" me. These are just a few examples of the situations I faced during the pandemic with people who were unwilling to take COVID safety precautions. It's one thing being worried about the vaccine's effects, and I can have sympathy for that, but there's only so far I'm willing to go. I think that compassion towards those willfully unvaccinated can only go as far as they extend their own compassion. In addition, many of these movements ignore the people who are often hurt the most by these arguments: the disabled. I try to be compassionate, but there's only so far I can go without relinquishing some of my own dignity.

[@dantevalehuntik28]

I fully agree with you. While I'm fortunately only asthmatic and not immunocompromised, I fully agree with the anger that people like you and me and those vulnerable to COVID are being considered as "acceptable sacrifice" or even disposable. It's fucking disgusting. The only person in my family who isn't vulnerable to this shit is my brother and every time people say that "it's fine only the sick and old will die" it makes me want to do a violence because those are Human People they're talking about.

[@sharamusica]

I think the wording is incorrect. The elderly and immune compromised should be advised to receive the vaccine BUT you say that the immune compromised and elderly are disposable to the unvaccinated. I feel that they are disposable to the multibillion dollar big pharmaceutical companies that are making billions with a vaccine that doesn’t really work and didn’t deliver as promised. It’s an experiment.

[@patriciovega3035]

Baby, you still get & spread the virus while vaccinated. You’re protecting no one but yourself with the jab, don’t be delusional.

[@nerds-nonsense]

When I meet people like that I usually say something along the lines of "well, just tell me to my face that my life doesn't matter and that you want me to just fuck off and die." They *usually* shut the fuck up after that, but as you stated some people really are just that selfish

[@jennifernordlund2691]

But who cares about your fake compassion anyways? Take care of your own health and mind your own business. Try that.

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

Listening to this, something just came to my mind: Typhoid Mary was never diagnosed with typhoid. Every time she was tested, the results came back negative. As such, she assumed that the insistence she quarantine herself - or at least stop working in kitchens and restaurants - were discrimination, based on the stereotype that poor immigrants aren't concerned with hygiene.

[@rosabellavitaalvarez-calde5836]

Actually, she was tested numerous times and most of her samples were positive. She was a carrier, and there are plenty of diseases where the carrier is not ill from the disease itself. Think about hemophilia and the fact that prince Alexei of Russia acquired the disease through his mother, who had no symptoms.

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

@rosabellavitaalvarez-calde5836 The point remains that she misinterpreted a legitimate hygiene concern as bigotry (which, frankly, probably was a factor in her infamy regardless).

[@criticalthot]

Love this, thank you! I’m so glad the dialogue about mistrust in the government and medical systems is getting more attention. I lived in Flint, MI during the lead crises, the government literally poisoned us for years and lied about it. I’m fully vaxxed, but I entirely understand why some folks in my former community feel hesitant about the situation. When you’ve been shown your whole life exactly how little the government cares about you, why would you suddenly believe they mean well this time?

[@FoxFireNaruto]

When you put it like that...I guess being able to trust your government and 'institutions' is a kind of privilege.

[@criticalthot]

@@FoxFireNaruto agreed, well put!

[@peergynt3008]

I suppose it becomes a calculation of what is in the best interest of invested parties. I think the government doesn't do well if the workforce of the entire profit generating sector is crippled by disease and death and society grinds to a halt. I don't think that's in the interest of power. And I think, to some extent, the interests of the people and of power align on this one.

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

@@peergynt3008 yes, this has been my way of thinking of it as well.

[@criticalthot]

@@Salami1001 unfortunately there was already a heavy foundation of mistrust in the government, etc in the Flint area, even before the water situation became public. When the city announced they’d be switching our water supply, everyone knew it was a bad idea. We could see how gross the river was and the state of that plant. Not to mention, one of the few GM factories left in the area (after the mass exodus that devastated the city years previously) opted to switch its plant water supply back to Detroit water very shortly after the change, bc the new Flint water was literally damaging their equipment. We knew something was wrong, but the community was already so accustomed to mistreatment it didn’t seem out of the ordinary, and we knew no one would listen anyway.

[@Lawnie]

This reminds me of some conversation pieces I've seen around childhood vaccines. I saw an article somewhere - God knows where - that said something along the lines of how at least some parents who don't want to vaccinate their children just need somebody to sit down with them, listen to their concerns, and show them some empathy and understanding. But the problem is that doctors simply don't have time to do that. So instead, those parents feel dismissed, go searching for information elsewhere, and end up falling down rabbit holes about vaccines supposedly causing autism or what-have-you. Emotional validation is important. Facts may not care about your feelings, but your feelings influence how you process the facts and that's a hugely neglected element of human decision-making. Also, I'm really not on board with a lot of the "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes" response to voluntarily unvaccinated people dying of COVID. Every story I've read about voluntarily unvaccinated people in hospital with COVID begging for the vaccine and being told it's too late is heart-breaking and horrible.

[@seungminmakesmestay]

In the cases where people get sick and then want the vaccine, they clearly don't understand how vaccines work in the first place. And that's part of the problem with the POV of those who are willfully unvaccinated: they claim to be okay with rolling the dice on other people dying until their number comes up or someone they know/love have been exposed and their immune system reacts poorly. Then all of a sudden, they want medicine to save them without the understanding that medicine already had a solution. But they didn't agree with the solution so now they suffer. And it's really sad seeing people die who shouldn't have died snd reading about people who refused to follow any current medical advice during a literal plague and then get the plague and want to repent.

[@popopop984]

I’m not sure, those individuals knew that everyone was trying to help them, even in a rude way. They knew, still ignored it, and tried to uphold their beliefs even causing other people to hurt which could have been prevented had they just listened. Then, they are at the end of their life, still in denial or in shock. It’s sad, but I can’t sympathize with it.

[@loveconqueror3311]

When someone tries to sit you down and express compassion, emotional validation in explaining to you that everything you know about vaccines and the corona virus narrative is not only wrong - but you likely harmed yourself and those who you encouraged to get injections.. I wonder if you'll be strong enough to not be a hypocrit.

[@Punyulada]

I'm a medical doctor currently at a crossroads/on the verge of deciding whether I want to carry on with being a physician, or go back to my former profession (pharmacy). As medical students during the height ofa vaccine controversy in my country (which preceeded COVID-19 by a few years,) we were deployed to local health centres to host open forums and answer questions any parents had about childhood immunisations. The problem we had is very different from that of the West, however -- these parents were willing to get their children vaccinated by private physicians because they trusted them, but did not trust any vaccinations handed out by the government due to overblown claims by lawyers (with no background in medicine whatsoever) about mortalities directly linked to administration of a newer vaccine (there was no definitive proof that the deaths were linked to the vaccine, and anyone with a basic understanding of immunology would know that the disease in question can manifest in more severe ways the more antibodies are produced against it/the more a patient is exposed to it -- this concept is called "antibody mediated enhancement" so anyone who finds this comment can read about it, as I'm uncertain that my English proficiency can simplify it properly.) There were talks about the government vaccination programme being "rushed" or done simply to line the pockets of certain officials -- nothing about this "autonomy" or "anti-mandate" crap I see from Western fare. Once we showed these parents that we were willing to listen to their concerns and answered all their questions, understanding that their wariness was not due to anything malicious, and rather just a basic need to know that the vaccines were truly safe, we were able to win their trust and our vaccination efforts were successful. The city we were deployed to had only one mortality from the epidemic we were trying to stop at the time.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Have I EVER seen a better Vaccine-Coverage then Hbomberguy? No.

[@BlindErephon]

I got vaccinated because in the US, for uninsured people, the choice is 1) get a (mostly) free vaccine or 2) spend time in a hospital and live with crushing debt for the rest of your life. Don't really feel too well at the moment, might be COVID or just my seasonal bronchitis, but the vaccine is going to mean the difference between "Feel like dying at home" and "Feel like dying and owe more money than I will be able to repay in my life."

[@sheltertwo7957]

Yep lol as soon as I heard everyone taking up hospital beds in my city weren’t vaccinated, I called & made my appointment. I’ll take a free jab over a $15,000 bill.

[@BlindErephon]

​@@leventeberdock355 Paying for people to get life saving medication is exactly what I think taxes are for, so I don't really see the point in quibbling about, at most, the cost of one very expensive aircraft carrier. The US government loses billions on literal nothing every year, paying for vaccines seems like a much better investment.

[@Mindseas]

I just loooove how well constructed your videos - and arguments, are, and at least from my perspective (as a vaccine sheep who's found it difficult to deal with other, more radical opinions on the matter) it was a refreshingly multi-sided take on a rather complex and divisive topic. I just wish I'd watched it sooner because it might've made a difference in my personal life, but today is better than never, and I'm super grateful for you and your work on here!

[@Sam-hp8cp]

It always brightens my day when I find out a favourite creator is passionate about dispelling pseudoscience and misinformation. And has the ability to do so respectfully . You're a rockstar.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

This is so incredibly frustrating to me as an immunocompromised person who is at higher risk of complications and death even after being fully vaccinated. I want to say three things to these people: re: "blind trust in science" Yes, you have correctly identified that people do put a certain level of blind trust in science, but that in and of itself is not a meaningful observation. It's not possible to have all the information on everything all the time, so to function *at all* requires certain levels of blind trust. When you eat food, ANY food, you are blindly trusting in the supply chain to have not contaminated the food. When you take medicine, ANY medicine, you are blindly trusting in medical science that claims the medicine works, and you are trusting in the manufacturer that made it. It's suspicious to me that you are perfectly willing to blindly trust in societal institutions, but that you only seem to become a "skeptic" who "doesn't follow everyone else like sheep" when being asked to do something selfless for the benefit of vulnerable people. Maybe ask yourself why you are skeptical on *this issue specifically* rather than any of the other things that you could easily be equally as skeptical about with an equal amount of justification. re: "people should have the freedom to choose" YOU HAVE THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE! Governments are not making it illegal to refuse to get the vaccine. Criticism of your choice is not a violation of your right to choose. When we say "You should get the vaccine" we are not saying "you should be FORCED to get the vaccine" instead we are saying "you should CHOOSE TO get the vaccine". We want you to get the vaccine of your own free will. Your freedom is not under threat from the vaccine or from people who are pro-vaccine. The line at 26:03 especially frustrates me: "I don't wanna be criticised for not having it." as though criticising someone else's choices harms them in some way. Bitch, I *know* you criticise the choices of others. Everyone does. Everyone deals with it. It's not a violation of your freedom. Grow up. I'm immunocompromised and that means I'm at significantly higher risk of complications and death if I ever get exposed to COVID (which I haven't yet, but it's looking like exposure is just going to be inevitable now. Thanks!) The message that I receive when I hear people flaccidly justify why they've chosen to not get the vaccine, not respect mandates, and that they want to just give up and let the virus run rampant, is that my life and the lives of other vulnerable people are an acceptable risk if it means they get to relax and enjoy their choice not to care. I know Abby is trying to understand and persuade, and this comment probably isn't helping in that regard, but I want these people to know that when they say their reasons for choosing to not get the vaccine, or to not follow mandates, or why they believe that we should just open everything up and let the virus run rampant, that I don't hear rational beliefs worth taking seriously. What I hear is: "We don't care if you die." So maybe think about how you look to vulnerable people before blathering on about your incredibly-selective "skepticism" or your freedoms-that-aren't-being-threatened.

[@michaelfradley6950]

“Bitch I know you criticize the actions of others” 🤣

[@nightfall3605]

YES!!! To every word.

[@jennifernordlund2691]

I'm sorry for your health problems but you are really playing the victim. I think it's pretty disgusting that you think your poor health gives you the right to run others lives.

[@CloudCuckooCountry]

@@jennifernordlund2691 Where did I say I think I should have the right to run others' lives? I explicitly said that I want people to choose to have the vaccine of their own free will. I can't force you to take it (and I shouldn't have the right to force you) but criticism is not force. I think it's far more disgusting that people who have the privilege of not being immunocompromised get to act like being criticised for their selfish choice is somehow comparable to living in a dictatorship (26:03 of this video). Who is "playing the victim" when I am genuinely at greater risk and I don't pretend that my situation is worse than that, but people who refuse vaccines cry foul about their freedoms being violated because of basic criticism?

[@jennifernordlund2691]

@@CloudCuckooCountry it's not free will when the government is making you lose your job. But I get it, you say you don't approve of that. I think the shaming, harassing etc, is pretty ridiculous. But right, no one has to let that affect them. So you go ahead and say whatever you want. I'll tell you something about health that your doctors won't though. All that hatefulness and anger will not improve the situation. Mentality and emotion are a large factor in good health.

[@benjaminabbottscott]

It feels like a cowardly cop-out to tell oneself "the risk of me being a vector is abstract, and so dismissible".

[@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice]

I agree. But we're being emotional about someone else being emotional. They don't think it's a good idea intellectually to reject the abstract. It's just hard for them to feel motivated to figure out if they should care about it or not. If I say some strange shit like "THE BLOVIARTS ARE KILLING THE HANDSTINS TONIGHT" you will have basically no emotional response to it, until I help contextualize it and say "Your mother joined the handstins last year to protest police brutality and the bloviarts are a branch of the u.s. military designed to take down whoever they arbitrarily decide is a threat to national security". You suddenly now know how to feel about it and possibly what you should do. It's been talked about in the comments that people tend to change their minds when things are described in detail by a trusted family member or friend. I think it's natural to ignore abstract concepts, it's part of our evolution, but we can work to make things less abstract for people.

[@kartikkaushik9811]

Currently binging through the videos on this channel. This feels illegal to watch for free on KZbin, incredible work