Vampire Counts Unit Roster Tier Ranking

[@Okoii]

Potentially the only legend tier list with basic infantry in S tier

[@DoddyIshamel]

Greenskins had nasty skulkers

[@azpont7275]

It is THE ONLY legend tier list with basic infantry in S tier. For now and for later on. I can't think of any other basic melee infantry that could ever be compared with skellies.

[@Okoii]

@@DoddyIshamel Get out of here with your facts and research

[@DoddyIshamel]

@@Okoii I watched it 20 minutes ago 😆

[@FrizFroz]

You can't fool me. I just watched your peasant doomstack!

[@kwdblade4683]

"I mean, I don't JUST skelly spam. Look, I've even got a blood knight in there!" *immediately disbands it*

[@erensametkaratas6593]

Skeletons: S tier Anything else: Trash(including the skeletons, it's complicated 🤨)

[@saltefan5925]

The only way to get value for money with counts units is by not paying anything.

[@kelemvorlyonsbane13]

Aslında doğru kardeş. Legendın vc campaignlerini izle sadece lord, hero ve iskelet ordusu ile çok rahat oyun kazanabiliyorsun. Hepsi de bedava. Diğerleri legendary de sıkıntı oluyor. Ucuza etkili ordu oluşturmak varken diğerleri sıkıntı oluyor. Şahsen bende hemen hemen aynısını yapıyorum extradan bir veya iki tane vargulf ya da vagon koyuyorum çok etkili oluyor.

[@erensametkaratas6593]

@@kelemvorlyonsbane13 biliyorum dostum, esprisine yazılmış bir yorum bu :)

[@diogovieira5563]

Stupid faction needs an overhaul.

[@periclesgorgias9321]

"Skeletons are the backbone of how i play"

[@Arghgl]

Ha! That really got me

[@wildefice1]

That's a real rib tickler

[@Indian_Tovarisch]

Spooky scary skeleton

[@florians9949]

That until Chaos beings out the dogos.

[@jerondiovis6128]

Ultimate tier lists rule: all melee is a trash. Vampire Counts: everything is melee. Oh boi, it will be interesting one...

[@saltefan5925]

Good single-entities (mostly), but everything else is trash. Only reason skeletons are worth it is because they are literally free.

[@eannane8712]

Its free real estate!

[@toxicalyss]

Free maintenance melee is best. Whats so interesting...

[@SardaukarLegion]

Vampires are magic my friend. 🙃

[@BobMcBobJr]

@@mef8201 What do you mean 19? I think you mean 190 or do you not bring ten armies of skellies in every battle?

[@TheAvenger649]

I feel like you might benefit from evaluating heroes in the future, especially with how reliant some factions can be on them.

[@Hunko115]

that’s an amazing idea! so just a tier list of all heros in the game doomstack to garbage?

[@edyburkay]

Totally! This list is entirely dependent on heroes and would be entirely upside down if the heroes and lords were non-existent.

[@DoddyIshamel]

To be honest it would probably be better to rate the generic lords and heroes for each race.

[@tasorodri]

Don't worry, as long as we like it, legend will probably keep milking that sweet content

[@antonioking2602]

I agree. Because 4 vampire heroes with Isabella is devastating

[@gustafmannerheim9720]

Your lord: S tier Everything else: cannon folder

[@markthemighty3]

Exactly.

[@ilsgrade8357]

That's what I love about VC. Have a very small elite core and throw expendable trash at enemies until you win. It's pretty immersive, simple and efficent

[@chriswhinery925]

@@ilsgrade8357 It sure does match how you'd expect a necromancer vampire lord to behave. I'd hate playing this way because you're gonna have to manually fight all the battles but I'd never say it's a "wrong" way to play, it's effective and it's thematically appropriate for the faction.

[@50043211]

Indeed, the only units you care about is the general and heros, as it should be with them. Everything else is utterly expendable.

[@daangoes121]

It's Lore friendly

[@kristoforperkola6923]

The genuine disgust in Legend's voice when he sees the cost of some of those units is hilarious. Even deleting a blood knight on an already completed campaign, just on principle!

[@raphaelambrosiuscosteau7807]

It's like he is recruiting them from his pension fund.

[@laughingman4570]

When I saw that one unit in his army and heard his disgust I actually lol'ed

[@Brother_O4TS]

After seeing the Grail Knight buff, I hope CA also does the same with Blood Knights

[@SAMagic]

Me: It's turn 106, I've finally defeated the Empire. Legend: It's turn 106, FINISHED

[@SMthegamer1]

I had a game where I didn't wipe out Templehof until around turn 60 because an army fled up to the Chaos wastes.

[@NhatAnhPhamDr]

Play isabella. Kill manfred at the start. Remember to turn off tech research every start of a turn so you can have chance to gain Student follower. Fast research to ske free then roll over the empire with your crazy strong Vampire hero ( Pit of shade is insanely cheap and can be use on wall).

[@NhatAnhPhamDr]

I finish short campaign at turn 90

[@leonfriedemann9151]

@@NhatAnhPhamDr didn't no about that mechanic with the student 🤔

[@keto3883]

reikland wipes quite frequently with new patches as vampires and they don t unite. they were gone turn 30.

[@Khorothis]

"Don't double down on your weaknesses to shore them up, double down on your strengths instead." That's actually pretty solid life advice as well. Gonna put it on my Legend wallpaper one day.

[@Debilinside]

True... Even in your work, dont try to be okay in everything, be exceptional in one thing so you are irreplaceable cause of said 1 thing.

[@chuckhoyle1211]

@@Debilinside There are graveyards full of "irreplaceable" people. Everyone is replaceable. I'm not saying that people are not valuable or important, just that everyone is replaceable.

[@Shadowhunterbg]

@@Debilinside At work you should be good at everything, if you are not, someone will have to take up some of your work as well. And we are very much replaceable. Each day, every minute, there are tons of people that wait in line in case you get fired to take your spot. Humans become less valuable with each decade.

[@Draregkoeliekalie]

@@Shadowhunterbg well when I look at my country the Netherlands we a short on people for pretty much every job.

[@Debilinside]

@@chuckhoyle1211 Thats not what I see. My wifes father is a programmer, but only knows DOS programs and BASIC. He is making a bank on supporting legacy programs. He is not a good programmer by any means, but he is exceptionally good in oldschool programming. There are plenty of people at my company who really only good at 1 thing, yet they are very unlikely to get fired as they do their main task so well, the management doesnt care about the small problems.

[@argeltal9090]

I feel like vargheists deserve A tier. I just find them so useful in any kind of situation and not just sieges. Once you demolish enemy ranged units with them, just cycle charge the remaining enemy infranty from behind and they do a ton of dmg. I usually have like 4 vargheists units in an army and almost always they have 100 plus kills per unit.

[@skullz291]

Yeah, came here to make the same comment, along with terrorgheists in S tier. Obviously against AI crap stacks of combined arms, skelly spam is viable until endgame, but it's really obnoxious, unfun, and has a hard time dealing with artillery or heroes or anything actually strong. Vargheists and Terrorgheists maintain their utility at all times, even if they are very expensive. You do need elite armies, especially later in the game when every lord is lightning striking you anyway, making multiple armies immediately useless.

[@nathancampanini5309]

This unit's problem is sayed in the video, it's not that they are bad damage dealers/win condition, their biggest problem is that they are so expensive that you should still do a better job with skeleton just because they are free.

[@tahdiul]

totally agree. just a few vargheists in any army can work wonders. they have saved my ass so many times in land battles! even if you have 1 or 2 it can be very useful for distracting the enemy and making them split up their main force and thus taking out missile infantry easily. i think most armyes should have a few of these.

[@tahdiul]

@@skullz291 terrergheists are too squishy for its cost I think. they are terrible against even low-tier infantry so you have to babysit them all the time. they are ofcourse great against large, but as soon as they land they get surrounded and die quickly. vargheists even when surrounded can take off a few models and the rest will die, but you can revive them. I agree with legend that they can make a good doomstack in a large group, but very expensive.

[@nathancampanini5309]

@@skullz291 just take a look at the campaign legend showed, you can see how much does cost a single vargheist unit with the number of armies he have and how spread out they are, you dont really need to hold your crapstacks together since you only need one siege attaker to acces fast siege and most of the armies you'll fight will be infantry/cavalry, so you can just wind of death hard and still win even outnumbered by the ennemy. If you still want to doomstack and crapstack I have no problem with it, just do not complain if your vargheist/terreurgheist end up doing less damage value than their actual value in campaign

[@torum6448]

When legend will make a bretonnia tier list Cavalry: Finally, my time has come.

[@madkoala2130]

Get ready to be dissapointed, i think only 3 cav units are valiable (hypogirfs, grail guardians and knights of the realm), inf. in trash (only polearmes are best among trash), archers on A or B and catapults on A and B.

[@torum6448]

@@madkoala2130 Grail knights and questing knights can be pretty good. Matter of fact i would argue that Grail knights are better than grail guardians if you're good at macro. And yeah, what you said about infantry,archers and trebuchets probably spot on.

[@tonyfranksland428]

@@madkoala2130 he actually prefer grail knight in most of his Bretonnia campaign

[@tonyfranksland428]

The only knight he doesn't use is knights Errant

[@levse]

@@madkoala2130 Bretonnia is a non-horde faction without supply lines. Except that one peasant melee cav, I think every other cav is viable at some point of campaign, even if some units are way better than the others.

[@BlackTearDrop]

Legend, who has evaluated almost all Elite Melee infantry as Trash: "Here's a spicy take. Grave Guard are Trash." How could we have predicted this hard left turn?

[@Riwillion]

@Stiu The problem here is the absolutely nonexistent unit balance scaling for VH battle difficulty. They just gave the AI huge melee buffs and hardly any ranged buffs, which brings us to this predicament of offensive melee infantry just being absolutely fucking useless on VH. Not like you even need those infantry-killers, you have magic and other stuff for that that do way better job of it anyway. On normal, I was fighting off Chaos invasion with grave guard spams. On VH, I would rather fuck a grate than recruit a unit of grave guard, ever.

[@Phantom-xp2co]

@Stiu table top caps is your choice mod then.

[@Jack-jb4qd]

Their roster is actually really small :/ Vampire Counts are one of my favourite factions really hope they get a big update at some point

[@vahlen5281]

True, there is a lot of End Times stuff CA could add to them.

[@shyamsundarrajan2469]

They are the only ones pending a massive updates even brastmen got one

[@ledbizkits6885]

@@shyamsundarrajan2469 what about warrior's of chaos?

[@RoulicisThe]

@@ledbizkits6885 what about Norsca ? ^^

[@talilover5979]

@@shyamsundarrajan2469 Lizardmen still haven't gotten a REAL update

[@nraah4707]

Now that I'm looking at the Vampire Counts roster list, it feels kinda... bare bones.

[@KorsAir1987]

Agreed, and I never have much fun playing their campaign, they always feel lifeless.

[@nraah4707]

@@KorsAir1987 The tactics you need to make them work are downright rotten.

[@KorsAir1987]

@@nraah4707 And the battles take so long that by the end I'm dead-tired

[@nraah4707]

@@KorsAir1987 If you don't cheese the blood kiss mechanic (not that I know how to) it could drive you batty.

[@Shadowhunterbg]

@@nraah4707 lmao

[@RoulicisThe]

The two things that have always left me pondering are : "why the hell does poison affect undead units ?" and " How can dead corpses get tired ?" I just can't play as an undead faction since I constantly keep asking myself these questions everytime I see "exhausted" appear on my zombie's banners

[@gaynorvaderable]

I'll try and frame that. Poison is easier. There's not a poison that works on skaven, lizards, dwarfs and men, so poison units carry an array of various poisons to affect whoever they're fighting. For undead, probably some kind of holy water or mild acid or something. For tiredness, my best explanation would be its not that the undead are tired, it's that the magic animating them is getting weakened from the intensity that controlling them in combat requires. It'll recover after some time, but it drains faster the faster they need to move. Of course, these aren't Canon AFAIK, but they are what makes sense to me to explain what are balancing decisions

[@partizannen1]

Undead units cannot be exhausted, they are debilitated instead.

[@nathancampanini5309]

Well un theory undeads are bound to their masters, so let's just imagine that the poison disagregate their skin, it'll weaken the caster that controll them, so their stats are lowered a bit, and when the poison disappear, the spell caster can take a full controll on the unit. You can apply this logic a bit tricky for the fatigue system and there, I've got you the point on how corpses can get tired/poisoned.

[@glenngehrs7913]

I agree with undead tiring thing. One of the few only mods I've ever downloaded was one that gave all Undead units Perfect Vigour, simply because I felt it made more sense, too.

[@danbrown4193]

Summoned and dominated magic doesnt persist in strength its represented of the mind control fatigue of the animator. Poisons degrade the tissue remaining on the corpse and cause disruption in the autonomous control of the animator.

[@dostayer3369]

Isn't the entire schtick of the Vampire Counts of having really inefficient and overpriced units but godlike lords and heroes to compensate?

[@RDA000]

Yup. They only really lost the first vampjre war bc they got some lucky kills on Vlad. While he was reviving the counts had power struggles.

[@gts2550]

They got multiplayered hard. To their credit, inefficient and overpriced units stayed as a constant though.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Ye. Great chaff, anything else that isn't a Lord or Hero had better have a really specific use in mind, or else be mounted on a Skeletal Steed, or contribute to Vigor Mortis, since those mounts are actually pretty good. Spending tons on your HQ is just how VC is done. And traditionally, they struggle against factions that refuse to let them in, or factions that have infantry or characters that can kill their characters anyways. Lizardmen come to mind, hilariously enough in tabletop, too. Your big, chonky boss vampire doesn't want to be anywhere near that Oldblood on a Carnosaur gunning right for him, with those skinky bois poisoning him, the Lizardmen as a whole can blender through chaff pretty easily, and Scar Veterans, or even just plain Saurus Champions have a pretty nasty habit of taking meaty chunks out of things much more expensive than them. And Slann are one of the few things that can contest VC magic phase, no vampire Character wants to jump into a pile of Temple Guard protecting a Slann, and without magic phase, VC don't feel so good. Granted, Lizardmen NEED to keep Purple Sun off the field, but, that's like, the only thing VC can do back.

[@darkrite9000]

@@mcmarkmarkson7115 I mean, his ring was stolen while he slept, so it's not so much lazy, but rather, he just forgot to double check his keepsake.

[@dakotadean7551]

23:00 I can tell you, the difference in performance between a lone kroxigor/horror unit and a kroxigor/horror unit just mixed amongst a skink/skeletom unit is like night and day. They get their asses handed to them if you ship them off alone but if they have little dudes to protect their ankles they can easily pay for both themselves and their meatshield.

[@Raving94]

the S in S tier stands for Skeletons

[@johnarnold8485]

Would love to see a video series where you show fully leveled up lords/heroes and how you spent their points and how to prioritize them. Would be sorta infotainment like these style. Regardless, love the content.

[@lethality666]

Agreed, this would be really nice

[@ericmoll1530]

This, please!

[@jonrussell739]

Absolutely love the content Legend. TBH, I prefer to lower the difficulty so I am not forced to cheese every mechanic and exploit the parts of the AI that are stupid. I find it more fun to play that way. Happy you have fun playing this way.

[@Nordzumu]

Absolutely. Add in some caps mods and you can have a blast. Cheese seems rather unfun to me.

[@Debilinside]

@@Nordzumu Its fun to cheese, but as it narrows down the viable units and tactics actually makes the game really repetitive. Like on very hard every siege is a slogfest with casting spells with your wizard/lord for 20 minutes then cleaning up the rest with your heroes.

[@ThePaciorr]

@@Debilinside That is an argument for bad design. Battle difficulty in this game is purely AI cheats.

[@Kyrkby]

Best difficulty I've found has been N/VH. Plenty of fights on the map, and you can have so many different army compositions. Fun times for everyone.

[@jonrussell739]

​@@ThePaciorr exactly. to each their own. I would prefer giving the AI cheats to have lots of campaign power, but not on the battlefield where I am forced to exploit the AI. It is anti-fun to make it so the AI cheap units beat elite units and have leadership such that they rarely route. Army Losses is the only win condition which is stupid.

[@VladtheImpaler_99]

"You've got so much money! You can afford it!" "Yeah, but I could disband it and get even more bones!!" Truly a vampire play style

[@JohnxLocke]

Vargheists are underrated. A tier at least. They do so much damage and they can aerial cycle charge like crazy.

[@Godslayer96]

They carry my early and mid-game as Vlad/Isabella. Fantastic for flanking, for blitzing and in sieges. Starting with their building on tier 3 is huge.

[@MsUndertaker99]

I think the same. They can deal a lot of damage even in late game. Definitely one of the best vampire units

[@AshenVictor]

@@Godslayer96 On the other hand, as soon as you can recruit lords at like rank 4 you can get like infinite vampires and they're not that much more expensive than Vargheists...

[@sokar_rostau]

@@AshenVictor I always go with one Vampire on a Hellsteed for every 2-4 Vargheists, depending on the stack, and evenly divided between Death and Shadows. Leadership means an awful lot for VC and Dark Benediction, combined with any Hero's natural Encourage, is usually enough to prevent them disintegrating before you can Nehek them. Vampires are really good units (especially with Isabella) and I love dropping Pit of Shades on top of a blob of them but they're not really very good fighters (even with Isabella) and struggle without some kind of backup, which the Vargheists are perfect for.

[@Noplayster13]

Same, I thought for certain he’s put it at A, but he’s pretty married to Skeletons and prefers units that can support them directly. Vargheists always get crazy amounts of kills, especially against factions with lots of archers and artillery. Only really struggle against armored and other flying units.

[@cambion444]

It's always interesting in these tier lists to hear Legend's take on mid tier units that he himself admits he just doesn't usually recruit. Why they're good/decent, but not optimal. Some rosters are way less lopsided than they might appear at a glance.

[@BlemmiganGallivanter]

The fellbats are so underrated. They can lack a bit in some armies, but with Isabella and Von Carstein bloodline lords, they dominate. Even into mid-late game, I run Isabella with at least a dozen. When swarmed up, they can melt everything but especially heavy and nasty troops (black orcs, pegasus knights, etc). The same goes for vargheists. Even outside siege battles, clustering them into groups of four is (while a little expensive) dominating.

[@kevinslater4126]

So by about turn 200 all my armies are grave guards and blood knights because there's just no need to earn 150,000 gold a turn anymore and blood knights are good in auto resolve.

[@nathancampanini5309]

And you've pointed out the problem of blood knights, they are good AUTO RESOLVERS, and legend doesnt give that big of a chance on this kind of doomstack.

[@Khornebrzrkr1]

+1 on a hero tier list! You always point out mechanics that heroes have I didn’t know about beforehand

[@hstew7526]

And throw in the non-legendary lords, too, while you're at it.

[@srb0501w]

yeah...really need heroes put into these lists. When only ranged units are getting S tier, I'm left wondering how best to stall the units coming after my archers.

[@P45K141N3N]

Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. - Sun Tzu

[@qnason2185]

40 turns in my kemmler campaign right now, much needed. Great content as always!

[@necro1314]

I feel like I’m always disappointed with Warhammer on legendary or very hard battle difficulty. I get that the point is for it to be challenging, but at some point it seems like it’s not fun to spam units and fight hour long battles over and over again because it’s “optimal”. I understand why it’s optimal - I understand that that play style technically makes the most efficient use of the mechanics of the game. It just seems to defeat the purpose to me. Call it a difference in play styles, but I would much rather have an army of “non-optimal” units that are thematically cool or make sense in the lore. I suppose I’ve just always been sort of disappointed that the total war games have always ended up emphasizing these sorts of tedious optimization problems instead of making the high tier units worthwhile to play on higher difficulties.

[@HistoricallyHomeless]

Agree I did play through with just spamming skeletons army and it was one of the most boring thing I ever did

[@HistoricallyHomeless]

I did it on normal but I’ll never play on higher difficulty, I like the game to be challenging not hard/very hard

[@ayylmao575]

Any difficulty that relies on making your enemies artificially better with boosted stats they don’t normally have is bullshit difficulty and not enjoyable unless you’re a cheeselord like Legend or a masochist.

[@albericdecarrere8436]

For a future tier list, do you think you could do a non legendary lords comparison ? It will probably be a longer video, like the faction or lores of magic one but it can be very interresting to see which faction has the strongest generic lords and how easy it has access to them (I expect slanns and bloodline lords will be ranked highly thanks to their very high potential but they aren't as easily recruitable as any generic lord)

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Life Slann got a bit of an indirect nerf due to the Skink Oracle. The Life Slann is no longer obligatory on monster stacks, though it is still a very good lore. It's more that you now CAN run a LL, Fire Slann, or Oldblood on a Carnosaur, than them being bad, if that makes sense. Oldbloods are pretty good. Historically underused, since Slann are better long term, and Kroxigors are better short term, but really, an Oldblood is a very good Lord. The Kroxigor Ancient has a niche in being the best short notice emergency Lord the Lizardmen have, possibly in the entire game. Scales pretty bad, but still decent if one somehow survives to late levels. And the Red Crested Skink Chief has the dubious honor of being probably the only Lord in the game to be completely worthless. It's barely cheaper than the Oldblood, significantly worse in combat than anything else, I think even a melee Slann would be better, and it doesn't really bring anything unique to the table outside of Tiqtaqto

[@albericdecarrere8436]

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 yes life slanns lost their main use as an inevitable unit for monster spam but slanns in general remain one of the best non legendary lord in the game, recruting a fire slann in an emergency situation when facing lots of infantry can do wonders. I remember a Tehenauin campaign where Malus was threatening one of my settlement with an army of dreadspears, I put a fire slann against him and his army was basically deleted as soon as they reached my frontline (Malus was a pain in the ass to deal with but I guess that's inevitable) I think fire slanns are still better than saurus oldbloods, if you want a saurus on a carno I'd rather go for a scarred veteran and keep a slann as a lord choice, eventually, there are so many different LL than you could go an entire campaign without recruting any generic lord

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

@@albericdecarrere8436 Oh, yeah, for sure. Even without the Life Slann being obligatory anymore, I still think it's just the best choice like, at least 50% of the time, and Fire Slann are pretty good, too. High is alright, and I've yet to be sold on Light as a lore yet, but both of those, I think, are probably more on level with an Oldblood. But, I like variety, too, y'know? Oldbloods and Kroxigor Ancients are fun.

[@TheYasserforgames]

Ever since I learned about the skeleton cheese I only used them, so it's good to see where you rank the rest of the roster.

[@TheYasserforgames]

@@mcmarkmarkson7115 it's mainly because of how it plays. I mean it is very effective and quite thematic in my opinion.

[@SultanFilm]

@@mcmarkmarkson7115 I sort of have two type of armies when I play as the VC. The elite fancy army for the LLs and a few higher ranking vampire lords, and then a bunch of free skelly armies to back up the elite armies and such.

[@Noplayster13]

@@SultanFilm yeah, prefer balanced armies with LL’s (Vargheists!!) and skeleton spam with the Necromancer Lords.

[@romaliop]

The black coach is insanely strong against (melee) infantry, you can just continuously charge through the enemy without ever being hit yourself. It just needs way too much babysitting to be used in this way. CA should really add a sort of melee skirmish mode for such units so that they would autonomously run down enemy archers and routing units. Or a cycle charge mode where they avoid getting stuck in combat while repeatedly charging a certain unit.

[@Runenschuppe]

That stuff works amazing in Coop... one is doing the regular commanding and the other gets the Cav to do cycle charges. Pretty much the only way to get value out of those units.

[@ximbabwe0228]

A cycle charge button would be fantastic. Seems similar to the parthian shot ability

[@Slie1988]

Skellys are the "backbone" of the army. Thanks Legend.

[@mat7835]

I find Vargheists amazing for siege defences, because with the VCs you don't have missiles. So defending the walls is often best to maximise the towers, and being able to easily charge in and out with Vargheists and fight on the walls makes them so valuable in those situations.

[@BarnCat1691]

Thanks for doing these tier lists! I don't play on legendary difficulty but these are really helpful with making better armies, especially with factions I used to not play as much because I had trouble figuring out the rosters! Can't wait for the rest of the factions and for a Hero type tier list!

[@javier6877]

More tiers for the tier god! Unit ratings for the campaing cheese!

[@cygor4520]

About 350 hours in and had no idea anti-large increases melee attack vs large. Thought it was just weapon strength. Waaay better than I thought.

[@TheYannir]

That applies to all bonuses btw. Vs Infantry, Large and also Charge bonus. All three increase both Melee Attack and Weapon Strength.

[@cygor4520]

@@TheYannir Super helpful, thanks!

[@barleysixseventwo6665]

The best part about a Skeleton army is no matter how many enemies their are on the field you’re never outnumbered!

[@FrostFire1987]

ive started watching his tier videos on 1.50 speed now, so much better

[@Whoisthis911]

This video is great proof why supply lines mechanic needs to be completely removed. Zombie as a recruit unit is primarily used to boost raise dead (corpse markers). Make 4 zombie armies (free upkeep tech, with one cheapest siege attacker unit and lvl1 cheap lords) and send em on a united suicide attack vs a nearby huge protected city. It will cost you almost nothing and you will get a colossal raise dead pool. You can also use the cheap zombie armies to weaken enemy garrison before you attack with your real army. And you can actually kill your own zombies with Wind of Death in huge numbers to create Raise Dead markers in any battle location. Bats due to flying can shut down enemy shooters MUCH faster than wolves (you dont want skaven shooting for even a second). Also bats actually have melee defense compared to wolves. Also bats are great meat shield for your other flying units. Also bats can tear apart any flying unit that lacks armor. And, strangely enough, bats have almost zero collision meaning every bat can attack at the same time unlike wolves who get piled up one behind another (just like any normal unit) - this quirk makes massed bats deal staggering damage (including morale) to low armored units. As far as VCount crossbowmen and handgunners go i would actually use them vs giants, dragons, cavalry and anything else you just want to focus fire (preferably large so easy to hit). They can compensate for the fact that your vampire magic is not the best vs large.

[@jdunnatl]

Bats with Isabella are even more AMAZING because they get Hunger. Such a great combination. 👍

[@Jack-jb4qd]

Not sure if its lore friendly or not but I think vampire counts would be more enjoyable if they didn't pay upkeep at all, same as the tomb kings/beastmen.

[@blindeyedblightmain3565]

Hey, the zombies need to pay that rent, where would they sleep at night otherwise? Pneumonia is a scary thing for the elderly.

[@albericdecarrere8436]

I think it will ultimately be the case, CA seem to be tending to it and they kinda started already by making skeletons and zombies completely free in game 2. Maybe when they add neferata or Nagash

[@Mythralblade04]

Not really lore friendly - it's pretty well established that animating with vamp magic is really draining and a caster can only maintain so many at once. TK is distinct in that the animating force is an old soldier's individual willing soul, vs the souls having to be dragged back kicking and screaming by vamp magic. So the "dark magic" upkeep for vamps is literally just keeping drafted souls in place, vs the TK's volunteer army.

[@Jack-jb4qd]

@Stiu Well if it happens then there would be restrictions put in place anyway, like a unit cap.

[@Jack-jb4qd]

@@Mythralblade04 Ah okay. I'd just like to see some incentive for me to mix up my armies more. While no upkeep skeletons are fun it also sorta feels like the most viable unit.

[@radix2830]

Legend looking at blood knight/terror ghost upkeep costs is me looking at branded pasta while groceries shopping.

[@carlchristianlindalen9311]

When skelly spamming it's actually not bad to take a couple of ghouls interspersed with them for the poison debuff they bring. It won't be decisive, but if you've got a couple open slots they're fine. They'll reduce the incoming damage on your blob slightly. You'll save a couple neheks over the course of a battle and potentially getting you another wind of death earlier.

[@DaciaJC]

Legend playing as Vlad von Carstein: "The world shall drown in -blood- bones!"

[@eric81757]

One of my favorite starts to a VC campaing was when I somehow stole an Errantry Banner (I think) and gave it to some dire wolves. +25 charge bonus turned them into super fast, light shock cav that caused fear. Archers just melted on contact, it was super funny to watch. Probably wouldnt have been as good against dark elves or something though.

[@gnoffhoff5296]

If one thing is clear for vampire counts its that range spam isn't a good idea.

[@knightshade3d51]

Perfect timing for this vid. Just got done watching the rest of these and have been looking forward to more.

[@knightshade3d51]

Also I have no issue with skeleton spam......my computer on the other hand lol

[@jacobburch7555]

Hype for the beastmen one whenever it comes out. I hated beastmen but since the update theyre so fun to play.

[@jacobburch7555]

Dude minotaurs are overpowered as hell now so i agfre

[@adamstilber8382]

I’d put crypt horrors higher but that’s because I’ll usually position them behind my bone bois and have them rush to weak points or reinforce where they’re needed. Their high mobility is very good in that regard and I find that they do perform better when they’re mixed in with the bones. Even against halberds they can do pretty well as not enough of the models are able to focus on them when they’re choking on bones.

[@bryceunrau2458]

Looking forward to this all week

[@MattilaEP]

It's so fun to watch these, when I mostly just play multiplayer for fun and have a complete different valuation for the units.

[@jouglas6695]

While I miss getting to interact with legend over livestream, I’m loving these tier list videos. So much knowledge packed into so little time!

[@Paddeldje]

I absolutely adore Vargheists. I've beaten multiple fullstacks with just a handfull of these in in my army and a lord hidden in the trees to heal them. If microed well, they absolutely smash things. Very tedious though. But fun.

[@jacobgebhart7550]

Once had a battle site in a province with 15,000 casualties. I sent 2 skeli stacks against 3 skaven stacks that were almost entirely skavenslaves. As long as you had the cash you could raise 2 full armies of blood knights, terrorgheists, vargulfs, grave guard, and mortis engines about every 8-10 turns.

[@omletinaomletina9430]

Do you know, is it possible to hire (raise new ubdead units), if haven't got required buildings for them? For example, if i haven't got any unit building, except main buildings (so, without recruiting new units, just raising from the death, hope, i ' ll recruit better one)

[@jacobgebhart7550]

@omletinaomletina9430 the only thing that impacts the units you can raise are the casualties from battles that are recorded with a battle sight monument. You can raise very high quality units like blood knights and zombie dragons even in enemy owned provinces where you'll obviously have no buildings. You'll know what units you can raise as you'll see their unit card in the raise dead pool as well as the percentage chance per turn that one of those units will become available to raise.

[@SGWeber]

I start playing VC and the next thing I know you upload a tier list for them! Much appreciated Legend!

[@Pwnarbullen]

I really appreciate your nuance in these tier lists, really good explanations for your rankings.

[@UnrulyCitizens]

Honestly, I hope he starts including the heroes and single entity lords in these unit rankings, they can be used just as well as any other unit and are sometimes integral in an army or doomstack.

[@CH-ml4rz]

I think he will make Hero Tier videos later on. Gotta stretch the ideas _and_ keep the videos at a convinient length.

[@romaliop]

The thing is, there's not much point comparing lords and heroes to units. You always have one exactly one lord in an army anyway, so there is no comparison to units. Heroes are also limited in number and usually either incomparable in utility (spellcasters, supports etc.) or just all-around better than any of the units.

[@ARTEMISXIX]

@@CH-ml4rz I wouldn't mind 8 hours long Otzdarva style TW vids

[@phobosatthegatesofe3m158]

Just in time for my vampire counts playthrough.

[@lezardvaleth2304]

Legend has two faces: a warpstone sniffing murder-death servant of the Horned Rat, or a black lipstick wearing gothboi in Hot Topic shirts listening to The Cure and British new wave.

[@spazzygenius148]

you say that like skaven wouldnt wear hot topic gear and listen to the cure

[@kyleshuler2929]

Huh... you schooled me with the necromancer instead of corpse cart thing. Cant believe i never thought of that.

[@SkorpionMarauder]

Could you do a tier list on garrison strength for each faction, both major and minor settlements? I know dwarfs are the strongest, but it's hard for me to place some of them.

[@michaellaramee1965]

Great video! I tried the Vampire Counts and I just didn't really enjoy using them when I tried mixing armies. I will try the skeleton based armies with the magic support and try that route

[@gucijaki7508]

would be nice if you showed more of your armys in these vids and explained why are they built this way ( at least for the more unusual ones ) to get some examples.

[@toxicalyss]

CA: Time to do some balancing just to spite Legend.

[@Hunter-cn1yn]

Who else would like to see him make videos ranking all different types of units. For example All melee infantry ranked or all artillery units ranked.

[@Adahn5]

Thanks Legend, this was the one I was looking forward to the most.

[@Freeloader_420]

I would put the Black Coach in B tier instead of C tier, but I could agree with the rest based on your reasoning. Varghulfs are at S tier just because I think they're cool, but A is probably more appropriate. The hit box rationale makes thrm S tier to me.

[@FlourEater]

can´t wait for the Wood Elves one!

[@julian512]

I find bats to be useful in forest maps where you hide the main force and use the bats to get the enemy army to split. They are cheap and easy to replace. One downside of skelly spamming in my view is quest battles, so I am curious what you would recommend to have in the VC army for those.

[@DaGamingNeighbor]

Keep up these tier lists!!! Helped me see certain units in a different way

[@maxwaters1948]

Been waiting for this one!

[@Ruzaraneh]

5:00 "vampire lords they great, lots of magic and powerfull flying mount" i can hear vlad shreking in the distance

[@michaelpetrovich5353]

Indeed.

[@viktorvodrazka4756]

I love the hero naming "DISCIPLINED" for the undead army that really drive home the fact that leadeship is a must. :DDD

[@GoodCossutius]

BTW, Varghulfs also have a 2-second melee interval. They attack twice as often as most of the units in the game, dealing an insane amount of damage if supported.

[@Ratich]

7:54 here's a correction that you probably just forgot about since you don't recruit them all that often, you can give them physical and magical resistances through the red skill line and they stack with Nagashizar so on the whole they're better than Sirens since most characters can give them quite a few buffs and Kemler makes them a doomstack

[@TophuPaint]

Syreens are a better base unit just by stats and their AOE passive ability. They aslo can be buffed massively and legend has covered a doomstack of them before.

[@Ebb0Productions]

GG and BK in Don't Recruit tier hurts my soul. I don't understand how this race can be enjoyed without using any of those units. But that's just my opinion.

[@Trigfire]

...without using basic-ass infantry and cavalry? Both of those units don't do anything interesting or special and are super inefficient cost-wise. I enjoy winning battles and doing cool stuff lol

[@Ebb0Productions]

​@@Trigfire I'm winning too. Skeletons are nice fillers, but that's it. GGs look amazing, they tank well, and gets an average of 200 kills per battle without breaking a sweat. I say that's pretty damn efficient :D

[@nathancampanini5309]

@@Ebb0Productions Just two simple questions, on which difficulty are you playing on, and what are they fighting against, because even on multiplayer, they will be ranked in the top 8 against all the other races elite melee infantry and thats in a 1vs1 situation, without the ranged units and the spell casters, so they do aren't cost effective if you play under VH battle difficulty. Then if you use them just because of how they look like, than sure you can use them 🙂.

[@toggle3927]

@@nathancampanini5309 Grave Guard are fine on VH, you have access to 100-500+ base winds of magic as vampire counts super early and at that point it doesn't matter what you do with magic as long as you're using it. They literally kill everything with 0 casualties if you play correctly.

[@Ebb0Productions]

​@@nathancampanini5309 I'm playing on both Very hard and normal battle difficulty. It depends on what kind of goal I set for myself before starting. The only difference is that on VH i have to support the GG, while on normal GGs can beat almost anything when given the red line skill buffs. GG will fight against everything they happen to meet on a frontline. Their job is to tank, hold the line, and kill whatever they can kill. Elite infantry 1v1 doesn't matter, because they have different roles. Executioners may beat Grave Guards 1v1, but Grave Guards are still better at tanking enemy missile units... Sure it's more cost efficient to spam 19 skeletons and Winds of Death, but it really isn't necessary in order to win. And in my opinion it takes away the fun from the game. Different players have different goals. If I was forced to play like LegendOfTotalWar I would just uninstall the game. (no hate, just saying...)

[@DivineCatStories]

Im watch right now recording of VCounts livestream, part7 and im happy to see all that series Most of videoline played not by background mode , really watching and enjoy this

[@DivineCatStories]

27:25 oh shit a little spoiler :D

[@Darkens101]

Mostly agree. Vargheists I rate slightly higher though. They win against empire lords one on one. They can an be used to rear charge armoured units like greatswords or cav when they are engaged, something which your magic is less suited to with VC. Considering that Isabella can recruit them from turn one, they are my main killing power unit for the first 10 turns or so before wind of death, pit of shades etc become available and have their uses throughout the campaign.

[@01001010010001001100]

It's weird seeing the timestamp in the bottom right because I'm watching this 12 hours before it was recorded

[@loafer144]

I'm happy you mentioned blood knights as a multiplayer unit because even though they are definitely don't recruit tier in campaign they are absurdly powerful in multiplayer, in half of the counts match-ups it's best to bring literally as many as you can

[@neyaralbator1834]

I like your videos because i rarely agree with you but they show the importance of having a different opinion. I believe, it's good to have a different view and i m glad you took "the upkeep" angle because It's not my priority. When the funds are low i have an army dedicated to explore islands. They are like floating bank. I think there is a clear advantage to any factions with access to a coast since they implemented that mechanic. If your faction is landlocked you can't benefit from that mechanic as there is no land equivalent.

[@mtuktuk9627]

Would love to see the Heroes in this context, or maybe another round of Tier Liste for Lords and Heroes would be cool, more Tier Lists! 🤣

[@nickfarrell1390]

I love how all elite infantry is just automatically trash tier because of how the game handles difficulty.

[@junkyardemperor7030]

For real, you make it sound like peasant bowmen can beat chosen in melee on very hard battle Nice video btw

[@evilgenius396]

I love these Tier Rankings, keep'em coming

[@BeondTheKDGaming]

Dire wolves and warhound type units in general are incredible on the campaign side of things by allowing you to finish off units that have broken, meaning the ai has to recruit them again rather than wait one turn for it to replenish.

[@nathankozak9184]

I'm thinking that grave guard could use the free upkeep and skelies 50% reduction. Plus a halberd/polearm version.

[@mrhamtastic3385]

I rewatch these when I start a new playthrough.

[@SulyvhanTheStranger]

Can't wait to see the All factions elite melee units tier ranking video xD

[@urgannagru9068]

Been waiting for this one

[@donhearn2248]

Eh, I just always load up Isabella with Tough trait Vampire lords, and make sure to sack and kill as often as possible to get +ward gear. It takes a while but those with the speed boost, and the trait to add to attack stack. Been awhile since i played but I seem to remember VC get buildings and tech that reduce the cost of Vampire Lords, and Necromancers could be free with the Kelmer dude. You can end up with tons of magic in your pool, and just cycle the magic recharge button. I also seem to recall the Mortis Carts could hit Multiple mobs at one time on top of their AOE, the large land based bat things attack significantly faster then other mobs.

[@monsieurm3989]

i play tons of vampire counts and on normal difficulty. All i gotta say is with all that money, you could upgrade the skele spam to grave guard spam for extra holding power. Great tier list though

[@willfeen]

FINALLY this is the one I've been waiting for

[@LordBeff]

I'm currently watching that campaign , it's a goldmine of knowledge about VCounts, and very entertaining, in fact it went on for more than a week I believe

[@brian7711]

One advantage to Crypt Horrors is that they're the cheapest unit with siege attacker. The Vargulf is more useful thanks to the better mobility, but if you just want siege attacker, the horrors are almost half the price, and are easier to get, so I tend to use them in my early armies. They also help out a bit at dealing with lords and heroes that your skeletons and magic struggle to deal with, thanks to the poison and AP damage.

[@SagaraJedah]

Please consider redoing this list for warhammer 3 , and maybe include the different lords and heroes too? Skeletons are no longer free, how do you feel this impacts the list?

[@BW-CZ]

I was waiting for some more spooktober tier lists

[@Kredelwow]

funny thing is that a SINGLE blood knight, at this point, cost almost as much as a skelly spam army its INSANE (5:30 vs 27:32)