Multi Jumpers - Why They All Suck | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

[@MrMariou]

Fun Fact: Apparently Piranha Plant was going to be a multi-jumper, but they removed it before the character released. You can still find his third jump animation in the game's files and if memory serves you can even see it in World Of Light thanks to the skill tree

[@kevcopo]

I wonder how much his placement on the tier list would change with the third jump

[@endless_havoc123]

It was actually in the game but it was removed with the day 1 patch that happened

[@dmoney244]

@@kevcopo3 spots

[@MerryBlind]

With the Smash tools mod you can modify certain characters stats such as increasing the amount of jumps they can do. Doing so with any character will make them t-pose since they don’t have animations for more jumps, except Piranha Plant whose animation works perfectly when enabling a triple jump. IIRC adding jumps with Spirits doesn’t use the extra animation it just repeats the same animation as double-jump.

[@armandomorfin3845]

We don't know for sure if it was intended to be the 3rd jump or just another animation for double jump but seeing as how they designed the character behind the verticality being very good and if the game does use that different jump for WoL's skill tree like how you're mentioning then who knows

[@grimsdol4665]

I think the thing that a lot of players forget is that when it comes to mobility and speed, what matters most in Smash Bros is being snappy. It's not if u can go from Point A-B, but if you zoom straight over to their , it's why despite Mewtwo being "fast" in practice, he doesn't move like one

[@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies]

It's also why a recovery going very high and far (like with Kirby) doesn't automatically make it a good recovery.

[@Max-vn5vf]

@@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies kirby's recovery doesn't even go that high or far due to crappy jump height and crappy air speed

[@djdrizzy9139]

​@@Max-vn5vfLet's not go overboard here; Kirby's recovery is good and he doesn't get gimped or easily edge guarded. The 5 mid air jumps offset the low height, plus he can air dodge or up b.

[@Dondre69]

Kirby’s upB is painfully slow and has not great hitboxes, super exploitable, and so are his slow jumps. Definitely not worth being called a blatantly bad recovery, but pressuring Kirby in the air is straight up easier than on most characters.

[@Mr.Starlight_gaming]

Steve might as well be a multi-jump character.

[@0oShwavyo0]

I was thinking the same thing 😂

[@edwardgamerx9061]

Or infinite jumper if you... You know... Do THAT.

[@jackreese568]

Mind as well just spread wings and fly , and be immune to damage, and have an instant KO move

[@jackreese568]

Oh wait he already has all that

[@SonicTheCutehog]

The fact that the Pits have more jumps than Ridley when they can't even fly on their own is baffling

[@MerryBlind]

Yeah both Ridley and Charizard should have had another extra jump imo.

[@saratoga6663]

@@MerryBlind charizard with 4 jumps would make PT near ungimpable, as a PT player I would love it but it would be the most unbalanced thing to ever happen. as pt you get one jump, one double jump, ivysaur's up b stall, charizard's third jump and then charizard's up b, add a 4th jump and you will make it back from anywhere

[@biglangley8779]

HDR Ridley got another jump to match the Pits and it funny enough is a major contributing factor to why he became a high tier on the cusp of top tier

[@N12015]

I'll put it this way. Atm the best multijumper is, outside the anomaly that Steve is, Pit/Pittoo because they can shield in the air, which should tell you how mediocre they are. The reason they suck is because they're balanced with casual setting in mind, where people are awful at recovery and juggling, therefore the strenghts of jumping multiple times is noticeable there. Also, because how awful was to deal with multijumpers from 64 to Brawl (Puff, Kirby, Meta Knight), therefore now they're overcorrected... Then they release Steve's blocks.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

I would say meta knight is better, only thing holding him back imo is time, and that he’s hard and thus not worth the effort.

[@Mike-di3mo]

Nah they don't suck there just flawed most of them are good

[@elitecombine5373]

​@@Krona-fb4dn Agree. I think meta knight has the biggest potential.

[@N12015]

​@@Krona-fb4dn Time, range, DI/SDI and an overreliance on setup to kill. Yet he's around the same level as Pit/Pittoo, again, showing the overcorrection to them.

[@Alche_mist]

Wario, shown throughout the video, is a "sneaky multijumper", courtesy of the Bike that, when used in the air, effectively counts as two rather powerful air jumps - one more horizontal, the other vertical. Honorable mention also goes to Wario Waft that _also_ works like a jump. And even with his great air speed, he is counterbalanced by the short range on his attacks and all the limitations his jump-like moves impose on him when used (not much actual buttons when on bike, Waft requiring charging to the point you can see just about 5 throughout a long battle if well-prepared for and half-charged and even that, they are better off as fake Rest than as "just" an additional jump).

[@Accracy]

I think you just really like Wario

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

And, correct me if I'm wrong, his neutral air gives him a bit of a glide too, right?

[@grimsdol4665]

@@Alche_mist Don't forget Zero Suit Samus

[@gqboygboy6930]

I think the characters with multi jumps have low jump height which makes it a bit harder to escape disadvantage or bad air speed / acceleration unless you're jigglypuff. At least puff can weave in and out of things due to her good air speed but if you're someone like dedede or kirby their air speeds are horrendous allowing them to be easily swatted out of the air until they out of resources. Pit and MK are ok with the multiple jumps because MK has four recovery moves and Pit has orbitars and arrow to have a decent disadvantage.

[@MerryBlind]

That’s right. Multi-jumpers all have shorter than average jumps (except for their initial jump which is normal). The only exception is Sephiroth whose double and triple-jump go as high as his initial jump.

[@Spyder-Marth]

Huh? That title is misleading. Only DEDEDE and KIRBY can suck...

[@ElevarWolf]

Loo

[@ElevarWolf]

I meant lol

[@Krona-fb4dn]

I think the fact that the best of them are mid and/or no results and nothing higher is more telling.

[@Mike-di3mo]

​@@Krona-fb4dnpuff meta knight pit are not mid lol

[@BK-CasualGaming]

@@Krona-fb4dnThis dude didn’t get the joke

[@electricssb]

lowkey tho mk air mobility is not holding him back; its the fact that the character needs to hit specific confirms at specific percents to take a stock. He just has too much trouble dealing damage and killing outside his bridges, ladders, and edgeguards. Edgeguarding should never be your main way of killing. Even on lucas, for example, probably the best edgeguarder in the game, edgeguarding isnt the main way. He has multiple powerful kill moves and kill throws that make killing consistent. Edgeguarding is only a way to bs stocks early.

[@ManikoTH73]

Slick dissing Puff

[@jeffbell9129]

Idk who told you Lucas was the best edgeguarder in game

[@electricssb]

@@jeffbell9129 vars. But also a pk thunder

[@benross9174]

@@electricssb that cant be right. He is the best at 2 framing not edgeguarding. The best at edgeguarding gotta be Min Min or Pika or even MK

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

I'd agree, when meta knight didn't have this problem they were broken (for sake of simplicity glide isn't something that affected his power). But yeah, meta knight only suffers from having no consistency in combos due to needing extreme precision and basically a spreadsheet worth of knowledge on just 0-30%, let alone the whole range of what average players would get to

[@stixsis4656]

In short; If every Multi-jumpers had good air speed they could wall of pain WAY too well so it would not be fun

[@LukeyTaylor]

Jigglypuff, who DOES have good air speed, actually does create horrendous matchups where she either kills you off of one opening with an edge guard, or gets completely walled out. I can see why people would have a problem with this, because either way it feels unfair to Jigglypuff or her opponent.

[@someaccount5200]

MetaKnight and puff

[@N12015]

​@@LukeyTaylor I mean, I'm certain people don't like Puff in Melee so...

[@FireThePyroYT]

Well put. I attribute most of the multi-jumpers' shortcomings to their lack of verticality, since it usually means that jump-for-jump they stand no chance of proactively stopping other people from jumping around unless they keep ground. Their greatest strength in my eyes has been their ability to possess the shit out of airspace offstage, since those are the situations where the opponent is forced to go directly into them - after all, the series' best multi-jumpers (SSB64 Kirby & SSBM Puff) are in games where edgeguarding is disgustingly potent. Minor thing at 8:15, I learned through testing that gravity doesn't "decrease" a jump's height so much as "accelerate" the time it takes for the character to reach the apex of their jump height. I'm not actually sure if this applies to air jumps though, it could just be a ground jump thing - moves that give vertical momentum (keyword momentum, not height) do seem to get impacted by gravity. Not correcting anything, I just like numbers and numbers doing weird things

[@laffy7204]

Having a double jumps isn't unique at all, many characters have aerial movements superior to having one more jump without the downsides Examples: Peach has float, Wario's has bike, Diddy Kong has monkey flip, Steve has cart and blocks, ZSS has flipkick, Bayonetta has witch twist and after burner kick, Samus has bomb and godlike b-reverses, Rob's robo burner, etc Sakurai's team overestimate double jump while underestimate the mobility mechanics like wall jumps, tethers, air dash/burst options, character specific air tools, etc

[@TheRoyalSkies]

Great video, but I kinda disagree and here's why > With the current state of smash, I don't really believe the double jumps are as broken as you make them out to be because the S tier characters just don't care or play the same game. Kazuya doesn't get most of his kills with edge guards, he just murders straight in the middle of the stage. Steve doesn't kill with mainly edge guards, he just out-hitboxes and walls you into terrible situations. Sonic doesn't have to edge guard you to win, you have to come to him to win > IE: If you gave Chrom or Link, or Lucina an extra jump, I still believe they would lose to Kazuya because they die after their first interaction on stage. They don't even get to the edge to use the jump, that's just not how the game works anymore -

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

Kazuya is absolutely not a problem in this meta. He's been labbed to hell and back and gets his shit rocked by hit and run characters like Sonic/GW and ranged characters like Snake and Rob. Competitive smash at this point is all about securing a lead by winning one or two key neutral interactions and then leveraging that lead to force opponents into a choice: approach and be punished or don't approach and get timed out. I'd argue the only top tier characters Kazuya can challenge are the ones that still keep the good old honest wincon of actually scrapping with your opponent till the stocks are gone (aegis, fox, diddy). But they can't deal with Steve/GW/either so it's a no contest.

[@joshua4987]

A series I would love to see would be you going back over these “why they suck” & “why _ is broken” characters and compare them to characters in other games within the same genre that do execute the gameplay style properly! A good example would be if you brought up “wrastor” from Rivals of Aether in this video and showed why his gameplay DOES work. Just an idea I thought I would throw out there for the league & smash related videos. Peace & blessings brotha.

[@TheDekuSlayor]

I understand and agree with your point that Banjo & Kazooie don't have a lot of air speed, but you really contradicted your own argument when you say that "one character can travel a much farther distance with a single jump than Banjo & Kazooie can with all three" but show Cloud with full Limit gauge - something that buffs his mobility significantly - having to use his double jump to go a little bit further. It's a noticeable difference, but one character length further from a double jump is not a "much farther distance with a single jump".

[@eyyy2271]

They really should get rid of the Pits multiple jumps and give them both a single bigger midair jump(plus fits Pit canonically) while improving their air physics. Edit: also, Little Mac's Up B goes far when uses on the ground but loses his Up B the moment his feet leave the ground. That's just messed up...

[@classarank7youtubeherokeyb63]

The real crime is the fact that his side B doesn't come back until he touches ground.

[@user-jw2it4qf2r]

It's thematically appropriate for Little Mac, his ground moves are beastly and his air moves are trash for a very realistic reason - footwork and support are just as important as your upper body strength in boxing. On the ground, he can use his legs to maneuver and boost his power, so he hits hard and Up Bs crazy high, but he loses all of it in the air.

[@ignazioacerenza9881]

@@user-jw2it4qf2r Not to mention his gimpability and poor aereals are the only things preventing it from being a top tier. Super armor attacks on a character with incredible speed and frame data would be very busted if not compensated properly. I'm happy he sits in such a low tier.

[@JaCaBrA144]

Another problem with multi jumpers is that they can’t use multiple jumps quickly the way single jumpers can. If Kirby could do an IDJ with his jumps he could probably combo with up tilt better. It would also make their recoveries better since they would be a lot less predictable

[@Printerpenguin]

Instant sextuple jump

[@stephenrichter8940]

Bro he literally can IDJ and it's the key to Kirby's dair ride lol

[@Printerpenguin]

@@stephenrichter8940 I think the idea was that other characters have bigger double jumps, and so it's more impactful. I'm pretty sure "If Kirby could do an IDJ with his his jumps" means like instant quintuple jump

[@JaCaBrA144]

@@stephenrichter8940 he can’t do it with all of his jumps, just the first two

[@bluyu]

The only multi-jump character that's actually bad is Dedede, and even then, he's still seen solid competitive performance and can definitely be used as a counterpick for certain MUs. Maybe they play a bit differently and aren't top tier, but most multi-jump characters are actually pretty solid. Puff, the Pits, Kirby, Meta Knight, Banjo and Kazooie have all seen competitive use at top level and done fairly well for the little representation they have. Even Dedede and Ridley have seen decent competitive results in the past. Some multi-jumpers have tougher disadvantage states, but all of them have plenty of strong options in both the neutral game and advantage state and are especially good at introducing new mixups and thus influencing the tempo of the game. I would not say that these characters "suck" as much as I would say that they have unique strengths and weaknesses.

[@armorbearer9702]

I would say that there is a way to make a multi jump character top tier without making them broken. They just need two special attacks that can hit characters below them.

[@JosepiThe13th]

"Why they all suck" is a CRAZY title when Pit exists 😂

[@JonnyJayKhan]

Jpuff and Metaknight are legitimately the only good multi jumpers because puff has insane air speed so it actually works and Metaknight has limited horizontal air mobility but it plays into his combos and edge guarding and recovery so well that it makes up for it. Pit I would say is good in spite of his multi jumping and the rest are just too slow in the air

[@dagoodboy6424]

Charizard, pits, jiggs, and Mk pretty decent though. The multi jump fighters often struggle to get down and not be juggled but the jumps dont give them much distance and they dont have any good options to get down.

[@derekarredondo5563]

yeah remember when pit was s tier when the game first came out, I don’t even remember if that was true but I heard it so long ago it just feels right

[@mtvgamer2479]

Ngl I think Meta knight is one of the exceptions when it comes to landing. He has dimensional cape. Which is one of the best landing options in the entire game…

[@Krona-fb4dn]

Multiple jumps are good but the characters they're on are not often characters to exploit said factor or are strangely balanced around not being "too good" in the air. Platforms also allow for combo extensions that are basically the entire benefit of an extra jump and are used by characters that would be *wayyy* too good if they had another jump naturally. Just, without the negatives. I find this kinda strange since Smash doesn't really have much consistency on balancing around a character's traits. Samus makes a tradeoff with ground speed and floaty physics with poor landing, but she makes up for it with extremely strong zoning, advantage, and serviceable combos. Jigglypuff trades weight, ground speed, mediocre grounded normals and an entire recovery move slot for just being good in the air with multiple jumps, but Samus is *leagues* ahead of where Jigglypuff is on the tierlist despite giving up less for more IMO. Characters like Pit and Banjo may have more jumps than the likes of someone like Mario or Falcon, but because their airspeed is drastically worse than the latter two, they don't really have a net gain from said jumps or even get a much higher apex than them. This is also assuming these jumps come into play.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

64 Kirby, Melee Jigglypuff, and Brawl Meta Knight: "Are we jokes to you?"

[@Cle-o]

I mean, that's his argument - every multi-jumper that's been good has felt unfair to play against, making them really difficult to balance.

[@Kade503]

@@Cle-o Except that's only applicable to Brawl Meta Knight. The other two are in the no 2 and 3 spot on their tier list and don't have the issue of being in a version of smash with that one character that completely destroys all balance singlehandedly. Annoying to play against? Sure. Unfair? Obviously not since they haven't destroyed either's meta and only one player has even used Jigglypuff at the highest level for a decent amount of time. The real answer to multi jump characters sucking is that thanks to a bloated roster and stripping away interesing/in-depth mechanics post Melee and the majority of characters are just bland versions/archetypes of more on-stage power/kill confirms/movement/combo game with more exploitable the recoveries the more they have of the first category, then more well rounded on stage with uninteractable recoveries 90% of the time, sprinkle in anomlies scattered around the top and bottom. Since jumps are baked-in to recovery and on-stage power they just went the safe route this game and gave them meh all the way to crap kits across the board.

[@MegamiShin]

I see how the title says Smash Bros Ultimate. Not N64, Melee, or Brawl.

[@cappycap8144]

Even bayo smash 4, which basically has quadruple jumps with big hitboxes

[@Kade503]

​@@MegamiShin The problem is he opens with talking about the mechanics, gameplay, and philosophy of platform fighters in general and how good jumps are in them. Then just goes to Ultimate. Rather than compare when multi jumpers do work in titles or something of any substance all of these videos are just videos for the sake of making videos, always having the same 14~ duration no matter what the topic is...cool

[@kevcopo]

It still amazes me even after I stopped playing smash your videos ALWAYS are a top priority. You have amazing quality and I really hope you keep doing this because you have a great captivating skill

[@wailmoregd140]

This is a mostly good video, but I HEAVILY disagree with the idea that multi-jumpers can’t be good. Something you failed to mention is that people think Jigglypuff is actually solid despite how little she’s played and still has a lot of untapped and realistic potential to go further in the meta, so it’s very clearly possible to make a good character with multiple jumps without making them overpowered. The real reason why multi-jumpers suck is the same reason why Little Mac sucks despite having an excellent ground game, that being the fact that their strengths are outweighed their by weaknesses

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

I feel like the only reason a fun and powerful multijumper is so rare is simply because balancing a character with that level of mobility to not be meta warping is just obnoxiously difficult that it isn't worth it unless you had a huge amount of time to workshop them

[@fluffy_fluffinity]

What happens when you give a multi-jumper too many concessions: you get Brawl Meta Knight, lol

[@Worthsday]

I was gonna say that wrastor from rivals of aether is a good example of a strong multi-jumper but he is also the most nerved character of that game and he is still really good. There seems to be no inbetween

[@QverSoul]

Honestly, multijumpers should be the archtype of aerial combat. This could be offset by giving multijumpers a bad ground game. A multijumper in my opinion should excel at air combos with having little to no ground combos or any real kill moves other than smash attacks of course but even then their smash attacks should only kill at some of the highest % of the roster. You could even throw in weak grabs/throws if it was needed to make multijumpers live that fantasy. I think that would be the way to balance them. Meaning if you get combo'd in the air then you are rewarded because you should technically be able to move someone further and more percisely. Sadly thats not really the case other than Jigglypuff as I find her to be the only multijumper to really live that fantasy.

[@Spookie_Dookie_Pookie]

Multi-Jumpers are broken in concept. In the first 3 games, there were multi-jump top tiers (Kirby, Jigglypuff, meta knight). Most of the Multi-Jumpers we have now started at minimum high tier, except for a rare few. I feel like the inclusion of better recoveries in 4, and also the devs figuring out how to balance around them made multi-jumpers worse. I do agree with most of what you said in the video, but I just wanted to point out I think it was a purposeful balancing decision cause of previous games in the series.

[@Gombagamingg]

Techincaaaaally. Zzs is a multi-jumper too

[@lasercraft32]

I don't think it would hurt to give the Kirby cast a little more mobility... Dedede especially REALLY bothers me. He's slow as heck and feels like a rock. I know he's supposed to be a heavyweight, and the joke is that he's _fat,_ but seriously... In the actual Kirby games the dude can LITERALLY HOVER, why does he feel like a rock? I hate it. I've grown up playing Kirby games, and Dedede is significantly more mobile in the actual Kirby games. I would rather he be a more medium-heavy character and die easier than for him to play the way he does. His midair jumps _feel_ awful in a way that's hard to explain. Like trying to swim but you have a ball and chain attached to your ankle.

[@KaiJie-n8q]

The problem is his air speed, its just like that in the kirby games.

[@jakethedog1483]

​@@KaiJie-n8qKirby games handle air speed differently than Smash If you just jump, you have a normal air acceleration, but if you tap the jump button again, then you enter the floating stage, where your movement is very limited, if you don't want to limite your movement, just press jump once. However, Smash treats Kirby characters like their are in their floaty stage at all times, which sucks because it makes them feel way slower than they actually are in their origin games

[@KaiJie-n8q]

@@jakethedog1483 I think even in the kirby games, their air acceleration are almost just as slow.

[@jakethedog1483]

@@KaiJie-n8q naw, I have played alot of Kirby, its different, you only use hover mostly as a way to fly short distances or save yourself from death pits, other than that, you don't want to hover too much

[@KaiJie-n8q]

@@jakethedog1483 I must be a noob then, I keep using hover.

[@tuziaragon]

Fun fact, you can stack fast falls as multi jump characters to make your fast falls even faster. Fast fall jump and fast fall again, you fall faster.

[@TimG57867]

Interesting video! This definitely shines light on the shortcomings many multi jumpers have to face. Jigglypuff shows what a heavy tax a character has to pay to have multiple jumps along with good air speed. For better or worse the devs do have to keep their overall mobility reigned in. That said I really don’t think it would be that tough to make a lot of them more effective for what they are. Many of them could be effective with their current mobility if they just get their *moveset* tweaked in the right way. Let’s take Kirby for instance. This year Kirbies have already shown the potential he has even at big majors/supermajors after all the buffs he got. Imo he’s a mid tier just one good update away from being high tier. Even with his bad jump height, if you did something as simple as make certain moves like D-Air start slightly faster his already great advantage state becomes more potent in spite of the jump in a manner not too far off from Kazuya (of course let's not make it THAT crazy lol). Not to mention other stuff like addressing projectile swallow's long animation. The updates showed how much they could improve Kirby without needing to break his physics and just a bit more could just hand him even more success. Multi jumpers definitely have to be kept in check but I am confident a majority of them just need a certain touch up on a few moves here or there to become serious threats in spite of bad verticality.

[@djdrizzy9139]

Nice to see another Kirby player who gets it! Kirby doesn't need a mobility overhaul, rather a moveset update. Fix inhale so that it can be a proper reflector, swap out hammer, stone, and final cutter for a projectile(s) and rising break. This alone would improve Kirby's neutral and create openings that allows him to utilize his good advantage state.

[@keypiece9764]

@@djdrizzy9139I’ve heard of Delzthin where hammer is forward smash and puff’s rollout’s used w/o the charge up and low endlag specifically if you land it can improve his horizontal recovery/speed without making Kirby too broken.

[@keypiece9764]

I also have an idea for Falcon where he uses Falcon Punch as forward smash and the gun on his model’s the neutral B.

[@djdrizzy9139]

@@keypiece9764 Kirby doesn't "need" a better recovery, but rising break (or an up b that isn't slow) and a spammable projectile would help him recover more safely.

[@Printerpenguin]

Kirby should definitely be able to star spit all inhalable projectiles as is the case in Kirby games (or maybe even get the copy ability if neutral b projectiles are swallowed, but that would probably be too drastic of a change)

[@saxeladude]

2:03 true cause 'm pretty sure these stats also affect when being launched so higher air accelleration makes you reach the blast zone faster but also gives you more influence on your trajectory.

[@xmalin1]

bayo plays like a multijumper as she can cancel her jump with a witch twist twice, being able to jump 3 times in the air

[@jonadams2741]

Fair points as someone who's played a lot of Single Player mode especially Spirits if you know what your doing in terms of off stage edge guarding "Multi Jumpers" can dominate in most matches, fitting as I myself love aggressive edge guarding especially off stage. If you want my opinion almost every series should have characters with Multi Jumps with the exception of Kirby and Pokémon since a lot of their character do it naturally, I can see most series having 1 or 2 max maybe 3 if the devs get creative.

[@YTTHEGAMINGGUY]

meta knight jiggs and puff are solid the rest need help

[@jackyha9445]

I will say this as a Banjo player; I've tricked plenty of people to drop their shields and "do something" by fast falling and instead of landing, do the third jump, then I f-air Also Banjo sucks, buff banjo, I just want one buff, just make forward air come out faster, literally just that, and I think he can go up a tier, he sucks where I have to work around his kit but I make it work

[@pietrobrattico9272]

Just give Kirby the monado 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[@AntonioKing-v4d]

FirethePyro made a video about how jumping is overpowered, and I can say with certainty that double jumpers (except Big Mac) benefit from just jumping more so than any other iteration of Smash.

[@kirbydude667]

Multiple Jumpers can’t be that bad, Remember brawl Meta Knight? Also some multi jumpers have it because they can in their home series. Like imagine if Kirby had a regular double jump, it wouldn’t feel right

[@ayar2]

if thats the case Ridley should have more jumps, he rarely touches the ground in most metroid games he appears in as a boss.

[@VarsVerum]

Yeah I remember brawl meta knight. I remember him completely shattering all conceptions of balance as well.

[@LillLizzert]

Multijumping isn't the reason Brawl Meta Knight was good tho. Infinite gliding, disjointed hitboxes that beat most other moves and absurd frame data. He can do multiple up airs during ONE jump. Meanwhile grounded characters were to busy literally tripping over themselves. Thanks Brawl!

[@N12015]

​@@LillLizzert I'm certain it was a big reason for it though. Melee Puff and 64 Kirby are also proof of what happens when you give an oppressive air game to a multijumper.

[@LillLizzert]

@@N12015 I stil think there's other reasons for that: 64 Kirby had hilarious disjoints and was just generally overtuned including movement. They tuned back everything about him and he ended up bottom tier. Puff was still great in Melee because of said disjoints and high hitstun for rest combo's. In brawl, Jiggs was bad and Kirby looked decent at first but aged badly. After brawl both have really fallen off. Even though Kirby got buffed a lot throughout both games' lifespan. I just don't like the narrative that giving multijumpers good airial movement shouldn't exist for balance. It's arguably what holds them back these days.

[@kaito2220]

Sakurai thought Kirby or Dedede would be broken if they had actual airspeed to use their multiple jumps with, then allowed steve to place blocks in mid-air thinking that was fine lmao

[@craigyeah1052]

Anakin been real quiet since this video dropped...

[@smashdriven1640]

Actually, 🤓☝🏻Bayonetta does have a third jump if you do a perfect jump cancel.

[@CipherKnighto]

Really kept it 100 with that title 😂

[@Lugbyz]

Ultimate jigglypuff has extremely high potential imo

[@Tocaraca]

Well, Meta Knight and Pit are both mid-tiers, so they don't "suck". They are decent

[@Mike-di3mo]

Jigglypuff, ridley, and banjo are also mid tiers and most mid tier in this game are good

[@Tocaraca]

@@Mike-di3mo I thought Ridley was low tier?

[@Mike-di3mo]

@@Tocaraca he's C tier

[@StreakDragon1]

First, amazing video!!! Now I understand

[@KaiJie-n8q]

What's interesting about multi jumpers is that they can only jump another time after their last mid-air jump animation finished, it's also the reason when you are metal, their jumps is essentially useless.

[@mobkiller]

Should have mentioned wrastor from rivals of aether

[@AntonioKing-v4d]

This is something that needs to be emphasized a bit more. For example, the difference in Kirby and Jigglypuff in why they are better and worst in 64 and in Melee. Like what was lost for these multi jumpers for the next iteration of Smash and not just Ultimate alone (the changes in game mechanicsor power creep for example).

[@AntonioKing-v4d]

Correction: each iteration of Smash.

[@elitecombine5373]

I remember D3stiny made a community post about it one time. Simply put they over value multi-jumps. I think you made good reasons on the video but you also have to consider the inverse as well. The only reason why minmin, chrom, Aegis, cloud, and other characters aren't stray up tiers above the rest is because of their recovery. Which seems to be the biggest way nintendo balances them out, so the less recovery you have the more busted they make you. Only execption is little mac but that is more to due with lack of airels than jump.

[@kenspeedway1572]

You can make a multijumper a high tier. Ridley would be super scary if he had just one more jump.

[@Krona-fb4dn]

Honestly as a Ridley main, I'm not so sure if he would be suddenly amazing with one more jump. -Awful disadvantage -Still has a lot of "meh" moves like side b or dsmash -Bad shield pressure He would be much better, but Ridley's problem is he only has a bit of everything, not *enough* in everything.

[@adamswing6115]

No, ridley needs more reward off his pokes to be good

[@kingnewcomer2029]

Since Multi-Jumpers, Zoners, and Heavyweights are among some of the most hated archetypes in platform fighters (mainly Smash), my solution would be to just get rid of them. 😆 Anyway, that's really my biggest problem with platform fighters in general, because of how they're designed, you can't have characters be but so fancy, because that could come with deadly consequences, as we've seen many times with Heavyweights being harder to control, and easily able to juggle overall, Zoners with their almost-constant availability to projectiles, as well as long-ranged attacks, making them much more of a nuisance to deal with in general especially in the competitive community, and Multi-Jumpers basically suffer the same problems as Heavyweights, being easily baited, and punishable. Sure we could just remove all these problematic archetypes, but then we'd have a much more boring roster, then again, it'd be more frustrating if these were kept... So, we basically have to deal with 2 options in platform fighters: Either have a roster with more variety, but also more likely to cause controversy, or only have a roster with fighters that are designed to work with the environment (traditional fighting game chracters aside), but at the cost of having a boring roster, neither of which is good. And, honestly, it's for that reason why my interest in platform fighters is kinda fading, and starting to prefer traditional fighting games more these days. Sure they may require more button combos, but they generally don't seem to suffer the same problems as platform fighters since they're designed more around health, and not how far their opponent can be launched out of the ring (not counting stamina battles). I really hope any future platform fighter title/Smash title can design their games where we can have more character varieties without having the cost of causing chaos in the fighting game community.

[@RurouniiJay]

We just gonna leave out steve? Can jump out of side b, can jump off anvil, and block resets all resources, inluding well, jump. Clearly the best aerial fighter in the game memes aside.

[@cloudsthevaporeon5793]

I don't support this puff hate, top ten character trust 🙏

[@Mike-di3mo]

I think puff is top 50 and I will die on that hill

[@termamonpiediepew]

No troll puff is in the top half of the roster

[@boogsss2]

Realest thing I've read all day

[@roy_mezz-awake2470]

Not top half but definitely not bottom 20. Fucking bonkers mid-air and ssbu is THE aerial smash game, combos into rest you can pull out your cheeks, pound might actually be a top 5 special in the game, dies in 5 hits but good luck getting them, low-key she has massive strengths but no damage, no kills unless you can confirm into rest which is a risk and a kind of strong move kills at 60

[@Mike-di3mo]

@@roy_mezz-awake2470 Wdym no damage and no kills? Puff has the same damage output as Kirby just with a less amazing combo game. And the kill power is pretty good, you have edgeguarding, back air, up air, nair, forward air, up tilt, and the smash attacks. Puffs main issue is being light.

[@Ai-jr4ou]

A talking point of this video was on how making other characters multi jumpers could break them. I think that statement is false to a degree as it assumes the jumps are balanced as the only one they have like one wing. If we gave Chrom 6 jumps but his jumps were replaced by Dedede jump heights it would not be all that good. It would be beyond broken if you got a duplicate of Chrom’s second jump. In that vein I think that here 11:09 “that can’t be allowed to be good”. Is also a bit extreme the advantage of additional jumps is compensated for in the terrible innate physics of their jumps past the first. Or including the first if you have 6 jumps. As such further compensating by detracting from air physics is bad form. It mitigates the strengths of additional jumps by removing the ability to position yourself with them. Sure the arguments of if X character had Y thing they would be better hold true but that is not because multi jumps are the problem. In Kirdy’s case you can’t give him the tools he has now and a good air game because his buttons are all amount the best bit the game even with his awful stats. Pit would be better with Palu physics but that is because Palu physics are just flatly better than his, most character multi jump or not would be better with Palu numbers. Just think of Pali Incin or Palu Robin. That less a dig at multi jumping as a mechanic and more so pointing out the importance of mobility. That argument stands with equivalents that have multi jumps. Like again Incin but fast, or Mewtwo but no tail hurtbox. Or some other adjacent thought, like Robin’s bottom 5 over all physics. As for a high tier multi jumper that feels fair to fight. Just imagine Pit with higher numbers on his moves. Not better physics just numbers. His combos get 5-10% more damage his kill windows are shifted from 120+ down to 95+ or something that would not suddenly make him frustrating to fight because he is still strait forward and relatively teleagraphed.

[@kneo12]

To see what a top tier multi jumper looks like see Melee Jigglypuff. Busted aerials (back air) and the best kill confirm in the game (rest) paired with multi jump and aerial drift invalidate most of the cast against her.

[@ALinktotheAwesome]

I just think ultimate had so much work to be done that the smash team played it on the safe side when designing characters with very volatile attributes like this, you can absolutely balance a multi jumper in a game with a smaller roster, and you can look at indie plat fighters for examples, although you could debate their game engines and the meta their characters creates is one where multiple jumps has less value than ultimate's

[@FiendishPenguin87]

Straight up, if sephiroth started with one wing he would be a top 10 character

[@SkillTissuGaming]

To make everyone cry give min min a extra jump

[@captainphoton1693]

make the second jump an actual double jump and youll see how good theyl become. thats wha happened with sephiroth. he get to have a full double jump before his third shorter one.

[@DanTheMan12121212]

Is there a reason edgeguarding is not mentioned in this video? Ridley and Puff (and others I’m sure, those 2 just come to mind first) invalidate certain members of the cast offstage, in large part due to having 3+ jumps.

[@seejoshrun1761]

AFAIK, at the top level the meta has shifted away from edgeguarding and towards ledge trapping. Maybe that's why? Would have been good to mention though, as you're absolutely right that puff can just invalidate certain characters with edgeguarding.

[@karelissomoved1505]

cloud and little mac do really need another dj

[@CipherKnighto]

Let Mac have it not Cloud he’s chillin lol. If anything Ganon needs it more than him. Or if you wanna make another swordie broken af give it to Chrom

[@Kade503]

Imagine being Mario on the platform and not being able to shield drop because thery removed it entirely for some idiotic reason.

[@plabcentral630]

Never thought of it like that. Mk is ok and pit is ok, but they really aren’t good. Maybe it’s because I’m melee puff is good and I’m brawl, you know.

[@bair_oos]

Pythra with 3 jumps... one can only dream

[@boogsss2]

Yeah a nightmare

[@Wrestleroftheyear]

Come on bro I think having all the most broken special moves in the game is enough already

[@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies]

@@Wrestleroftheyear You think their SPECIALS are what makes them overpowered? Really?

[@Wrestleroftheyear]

@@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies you should read slower I never said “that is alone what makes them overpowered”. I meant it was one of the things. Because yes a fast start neutral b that lasts 10 minutes and gives 0.1 ms to punish is crazy

[@YoshiAteTooManyYoshiCookies]

@@Wrestleroftheyear if you don't count down B which isn't really a "move", then lightning buster is the only actually overpowered special they have, blazing end is somewhat good but definitely requires some skill to be used without getting punished for it and their other specials really aren't that great.

[@LiquidNeon00]

I think brawl meta knight is a good example of an overtuned multi jumper.

[@JoelTheParrot]

as a kirby main this vid is off to a rough start for me oh... OHHHHH you just mean tier wise ok u good where's jigglypuff confirmed to be a she? 8:21 pretty accurate to his floating in the games tbh ok so basically aside from steve this video is about how nintendo is good at balancing. refreshingly positive :D

[@mynamejot8623]

Bro talking about balancing kirby when steve is in the game

[@adambecker2136]

i feel like comparing banjos air speed to cloud with max limits airspeed is a little unfair

[@abeln1167]

Varss how tf do you make multiple videos a week on 3 accounts? respect bro

[@InmateOmighty]

Kirby do be suckin alright 😊

[@JUICE-BOXALT0]

Air speed is important, but i don't think having low air speed makes a bad character. Ridley and D3 already can't die. Combining that with the fact that they can fly makes them very good characters. The rest of the multi-jumpers aren't as good as those two, but in my opinion i find multi-jumpers very easy to use and while they're fun to use it is a little unfair😅 Idk if Dark Pit is very good though since i don't use him often🤔

[@Mike-di3mo]

King d3 is literally the 3rd worst character

[@JUICE-BOXALT0]

@@Mike-di3mo he's really not that bad. Im the only good king dedede player that i know so maybe you just suck with him?

[@Mike-di3mo]

@@JUICE-BOXALT0 no it's just king dededee is the 3rd worst on the official tier list

[@Zenarack]

Who do yall think the best and worst multi jumper is then

[@antonioolimpio7414]

I find it quite funny he didnt mention brawl meta knight, altough in brawl it was more valuable to stay in the air, but dedede wasnt great in that game

[@TramiNguyen-oi3kp]

What is Kirby doing?

[@monsterhousecop2082]

Jiggly puff in melee has multiple jumps but shes still not too op

[@AegisZentix]

Ngl I hate multi-jumpers they’re are so annoying considering I use to play Pit but he was so fun in brawl and smash 4 lol jigglypuff am looking at you 👀

[@philcollins6887]

Does rob not count as a multi jump?

[@glitchachuwu]

I'm not trying to be 'that girl' but bayo does have 3 jumps if you land both witch twists and both abk's then buffer a jump... she just doesn't have anything in her kit that she can use to add to the combo with the 3rd jump

[@Accracy]

It's just both witch twists, you don't need abk to get the triple jump

[@glitchachuwu]

@@Accracy mb I struggle to get the 3rd jump so I assumed that was how you get it

[@zy2239]

They may not be top tier, but oh boy… they sure are some of the most annoying characters to fight against 😢

[@jdassasin]

Whenever, I play sephiroth against kirby I die a little bit inside, because Kirby is tiny. But that might be more of a sephiroth problem than anything.

[@Trattt]

I don't think this title is accurate, therefore I'm commenting about it

[@chad_penguin]

Sephiroth is definitely not known for stellar performances either

[@ChrisH.-oy8xf]

Love the vid yoshi video?

[@jojojohnson5008]

3:20 Aegis is top 5. and would be top 1 with a third jump lol

[@emmastarr5242]

My stance is that Steve just doesn't belong in the game. Even Piranha Plant deserved its place more than he/she does. 😤

[@benross9174]

Pit is high tier and Meta Knight has a lot of winning MUs against good characters. Palu, ROB, Min Min, Lucina. While Pit has strong tools as Zackray and Earth has proven

[@ogxh0018]

Pit is no where near high tier. I don't know what you are on but the pits are way too balanced to even make it out of mid tier. Zackray and Earth haven't proven anything but that they are good players with decent results. That and Zackray is still pulling out Rob more for his harder match ups. Please stop the glazing

[@Mike-di3mo]

Most multi jumpers are good, just flawed

[@sa-x4213]

@ogxh0018 pit is definitely high tier at this point , literally one of the characters that has managed to stay in the meta more than a year at this point while other incredible players have gotten worse and worse results overtime like hero ( the bowser ) and skyjay , I could name more but for the sake of simplicity , gonna leave it like that because those two characters are usually group with pit at least by NA standards , also I would call getting top 8 at super majors “decent “ that’s incredible results , also the fact that Zackray uses another character for MUs he believes are better as rob , shouldn’t represent a certain character weakness but more like the volatile MUs ultimate has , come on , even acola is using another character as THE BEST character in the game

[@sa-x4213]

And he literally just used rob more this time , he got 4th with the bracket he got , while last kagaribi where he used like 95% pit , he got 5th

[@N12015]

@@ogxh0018 Ehh, is debatable. He's the best multijumper, but that only points out how mediocre multijumpers are, that its best member is an arguably 7/10.

[@I_love_chandelure]

Why No One Plays: Meta Knight plssss

[@Mr.Cynical]

Bro, you already made a video about my main Kirby being bad. Don't keep doing this to me. 😫😫😫

[@Jerry-rn9oy]

Good video!

[@obesememeproductions9073]

i honestly think meta knight is pretty good and might be a high tier

[@The_Imperial_Enforcer]

bayonetta does have multijumps though

[@birdfish86]

Kirby main 4 life.

[@temmie5764]

imaginr lucas had another jump, then you could tjcz

[@michaelsears1627]

Disagree