The Hellscape of Online Music Promotion

Howdy! Today I want to talk about the Submithub problem, the weird catch-22 of playlist and music curation culture, and airplanes.
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[@VenusTheory]

Well...this video wasn't supposed to come out today but I guess I scheduled the wrong one by accident 😅 Really hope you enjoy it! This one was a TON of work. Become a Patron ► venustheory.com/patrons

[@BloodwolfMusic]

Thank you for this!

[@CoffinNachtmahr]

Am I hearing bits of hyper light drifter in here?

[@VenusTheory]

@CoffinNachtmahr I write all the music beds for my videos but I can hear what you mean! I use some old-school synth stuff to make most of the music beds and pass them through some tape and stuff so it's very much in the same realm!

[@ATolerableQuietude]

Wow, well worth the work! This is a really nuanced video rant, a nicely balanced take on the ways monetized playlists impact music for both artists and consumers. Hooray for the dedicated microcurators of the world!

[@KevinJohnsrude]

One of your best, an that's a high standard. PS thank you for not bleeping. 😂

[@pwabd2784]

I'm just going to keep making weird music and putting it on spotify and letting the universe play out however it feels.

[@distorson]

What's your artist name? We will check it out :)

[@aleinad34]

i am intrigued! could i follow you on spotify? 🤭

[@CygnusOrb]

That's how I feel. I make music for fun, not money. If I make a few bucks, cool. Otherwise I just like to make it and upload it.

[@pwabd2784]

@distorson Baby Wires on youtube and spotify. Only a few releases so far.

[@tearperth]

Let's make a playlist with all of our weird stupid songs on it 😋

[@trioofone8911]

I am almost 60, and i have been a professional musician for most of my adult life. I have spent much of that time disillusioned and cynical about the "music business". As a recording/performing musician I have gone from recording on industry standard 2 inch 24 track tape to learning what the hell a DAW is (Reaper is my choice), and I've watched the business go from vinyl to cd to Napster downloads to thumb drives to vinyl again to Spotify and streaming. Each innovation leads to a few successes and alot of copycats (and less work and lower incomes for musicians in general) until finally the corporate pseudopod pulls the latest thing into its maw, figures out how to monetize it, and spits back out a commodified paste that has been masticated to utter meaninglessness. Enter playlists. 😒 playlists might be great for music consumers, but it's just another way for musicians to disappear into the noise

[@Love-is-all]

This is so true - what has music become? Historically, each art has its ebb and flow. Right now it's a major ebb, so all we can do is protect the art - an honor in and of itself.

[@compucorder64]

​@@Love-is-all I completely agree with you if you mean the music business. But the art of music isn't in a major ebb. There is so much beautiful music being made now; because many false barriers to entry have been removed. But the ebb of the music business has made it hard to seperate the noise from the beauty. On the hopeful side for the art too, major revolutions in technology go hand in hand with revolutions in music. But, honestly, these recent waves of technology have been so large, it will take a little time for music to absorb what's become possible, and to bring it to life. And then there is the problem of the competition for attention. Which is everywhere now. For example, if you get on a metro or a train and look at the passengers, it is literally nothing but people on TikTok. I see that more as not music being in an ebb, but business, and ultimately people's connection to their humanity.

[@paulie-g]

@@compucorder64 The accessibility of music production is simultaneously a boon for creativity and a huge problem for discoverability. A similar thing is happening in game dev. When the barriers to entry and gatekeeping are removed, more talented people get a chance to make something and put it out there, but the more that happens the harder it becomes for anyone to get eyeballs/eardrums/whatever on their creation. I don't see any obvious or easy solutions to this problem.

[@ricardojmestre]

​@@Love-is-allI needed to read this, thanks

[@CassiniProjekt]

Wow, very well written

[@akepamusic]

“It’s not a system of art, it’s a machine of content” Really spot on. Great video and super enjoying the editing chops :)

[@ricardojmestre]

I will sleep better tonight because of this 👆🏼

[@Dowlphin]

The fear ideology of capitalism antagonizes the (he)art.

[@dancoveney8642]

Also my favourite part of the video.

[@Caesar_Online]

You're doing god's working with these documentaries addressing the problems in the music industry!

[@VenusTheory]

Glad to be of service!

[@fuserproducer]

The music industry is currently a significant problem, with corporations playing an even larger role - corporate pigs!. The current situation needs to be transformed in order to build something new. To achieve this, the existing foundations must be completely dismantled to their core, and then rebuilt from scratch, simply put fuck them and buid a new music industry:)

[@josipvulic5471]

and in the end, the solutions, a very positive ending to this dire realization. much appreciated VT

[@firstnamelastname2111]

He put it in such way that explains why it's shitty, & I like him he's not shitting on the curators, but on the process. I don't see how it's gonna get any better each year more powerful computers are cheaper and 'aspiring musicians' with capable computers is just gonna grow exponentially. Which is good and is bad. Gonna be lots more less-than-mediocre songs out there

[@fuserproducer]

It''s gonna be worst , 100k of uploads every day on streaming services, listening music become irrelevant because too many ppl want to create it and become famous lol

[@infinitedurr]

I'm sure this is gonna piss off a bunch of people, but I feel like saying it: the internet offered an unfair advantage of getting seen _for a period of time, but it seems to me that that time might be over_ . Often, this conversation really strikes me as coming from people who want to be bedroom producers but don't actually want to (or don't know how, are afraid to, etc) get involved in a real world music scene and put in the actual work of building relationships and community, of which your music becomes a part. My point: the old way of gigging and getting involved in a scene that is relevant to your music might still be the best way to build an actual following and career. Instead of trying to get playlisted and then building a gigging career on that, why not gig a bunch?

[@esongsore]

Excellent point that is giving me lots to ponder. I stopped gigging a few years ago because of work and family. I am an example of a bedroom guy who has playlisting as one of my few options. I must say I have been fortunate on SubmitHub with an acceptance rate of over 60% and over 400 shares over the last two years. I don't allow the playlisting process to shape my creativity. However, I have had some good feedback from curators that has further enhanced my creative process (especially when I get a lot of rejections with some synergy in curators' comments). In this day and age, there is no prescriptive model that always works. The key is to try different options, remain persistent and hope for the best. Thick skin is a non-negotiable.

[@pulvenberg1709]

I agree. Gigging gives you a great advantage - locality. To me it seems that the greatest problem of this day and age in the music industry is the absolute onslaught of music. In internet terms you're just another text on the screen, you're just another 4-chord progression (which doesn't mean it's bad, but who the almighty f*** would be able to judge that after hours of listening to similar music). If you physically go out there and build a connection, you have a name, you have an appearance and a complex personality to show. And most importantly, you're only only one o a few in the area, which only few CAN see, but 100% WILL see (or hear).

[@cats9994]

This only works if you make music that isn't really extremely niche

[@JohnPloskina]

That requires that you live in a city with a scene with fans and musicians that support each other and show up to events. I know we don't have that here. If you do, don't take it for granted.

[@armaturesmusic]

I think you make a really good point and you're right, but I think it's about the fact that people were conned. Yes they totally should have been out making a scene, but it seemed like you could do it all yourself.

[@interstellarcastaway]

Really nailed it, Cameron. Especially so with your solution; we can't just passively allow the music curating economy to become the gatekeepers of creativity any more than we should let labels or algorithms do the same.

[@steficapuz]

FACTS

[@garygimmestad4272]

I’m an old guy who has had a long career as a performer, music director, etc. in the real world of live performance in concert venues and in theater. I took a keen interest in synths during Covid. I took a class on producing library music through Berklee. I saw how long it takes to even get a first royalty. I also saw all of the things you critique hear but in general as opposed to your really well-constructed presentation. Excellent essay! So, I haven’t bothered submitting anything anywhere (if only the world were different). I’m sure this is a naive question, but if, as individual artists, we bypass the gatekeepers and taste tyrants and create our own independent playlists, how do we monetize our art? Do we simply replicate the loathed system until capitalism rots us too?

[@Astralanthony]

After 10 years of failure, I’ve decided to let go. I deleted all of my social media, and now I just write music because I love the process. As for promotion, it’s absolutely secondary. Life has become so much easier. Your content is amazing, thank you!

[@CassiniProjekt]

Now I want to hear your music

[@huemorris6099]

"Integrity is a duty. Art is not for sale." Art for sale = content... and thus subjected to outside interpetation/opinion. If these 'opinions' are taken into account throughout the creative process, whatever your 'art' once was, is simply gone. Love your art for what it truly is... a reflection of yourself. Great stuff, momo!

[@Ruinwyn]

I stopped listening to artists, who think they are too good to promote their music, or their art is too pure to be communicated, when I was 15. I do know some people who do that. Fortunately, they are also old enough to remember what desk drawers are for.

[@kumparaz]

So you are saying that every painter before the 19th-century was just a content creator

[@huemorris6099]

@@kumparaz Oh no! Even priceless art can be sold... Although, I'm pretty sure most artists you're referring to would be making art regardless. Yes, some of the greatest have been commissioned, and indeed they would likely not have been known had they not been able to support themselves long enough to become great.(even those who died broke) So, I do see your point.

[@CygnusOrb]

​@@RuinwynI'm not too good to promote my music. I just don't care. I do it for a hobby, not a career.

[@DannyGallowsTunes]

TRUTH!

[@Darkest_of_Winter]

It’s nice to have my inner thoughts validated - only to learn that I am already among my peers. We are all in the same boat. You’ve helped me reimagine what success means to me with videos like this. Hell, I’m releasing my SECOND unplanned piano EP next thanks to your videos! Can never thank you enough as always.

[@VenusTheory]

Ah sick. If you're in my Discord send it over my way, would love to give it a spin!

[@MrWildFire]

Thank you for not being another channel that only tells artists what THEY THINK THEY WANT to hear, when in reality, artists want the truth. Much appreciation and love from a Dubstep Producer in Utah.

[@iam_aaa3025]

Love your artist name! Hope you make it big one day :)

[@paulie-g]

Mormon Dubstep has potential, methinks. Good luck!

[@CertainlyCaro]

@@paulie-g Latter Day Bass?

[@smartfacemusic]

As someone who has been making mainly lofi hiphop beats specifically targeted to playlists as a full time job for almost six years, I’ve experienced what you’re talking about first hand. I feel like I’ve not created art, but a product, and I’ve been doing it so much that I now have a hard time expressing myself through music. There’s so much I want to create but too often I find myself going the same fukken route even though I’m trying to do something else, it’s like I’ve lost a language. This video provided me with some much needed relief though and I feel more confident about releasing all the "too weird" music I’ve made. I constantly hesitate out of fear it will decrease my audience and numbers on DSPs. Silly, I know, but it’s been my reality for a long time unfortunately. Thank you for your amazing videos and for the inspiration! Stay true to yourself and your creativity!

[@huemorris6099]

Brutal. 😶 What a terrifying prospect. Have you considered creating an entirely new 'persona/identity' to release it under?

[@smartfacemusic]

@@huemorris6099 I have considered doing that. I already have six or seven artist pseudonyms in different genres though and I think it'd be better for me to keep working on those rather than starting new projects unless it's completely different. I think the way to go is to just ignore the hesitation and realize that some people are going to like it, some will not, and just go for it either way.

[@BoscoandPeck]

great video. i've used submithub and had a couple songs added to very small blogs. after submitting a bunch, being rejected, and going into a downward spiral of "why did i ever think i was a musician". i decided not to play that game anymore. i didn't start writing music with the goal of being a marketing/social media and streaming guru. i want to make music, so that's what i'll do for anyone that will listen. it's probably not the best business plan but it's all i got

[@glyndwr15]

In my opinion, this is the strategy most likely to yield success.

[@DDRMR]

I get like, 95% rejections and pretty much all of the comments boil down to 'this production is incredible, amazing songwriting, you're an awesome artist buuuuut.. not what we usually play' or it's something like 'but the vocal here, or the beat here was something or other'

[@afrosensei5308]

I was once told a song of mine was too uplifting

[@Sharpened_Spoon]

I think the fallacy rears it’s head when the platforms “intention” is to “connect curators with artists”. But really they’re connecting curators with content. If it were about the artists then the reply would be more like “I love your sound, this isn’t the right fit for my playlists but if you make a version like *this* then get it over to me and I’ll consider it again” or “you have real talent, I’m going to have your submissions bump to the top of my list as I’m interested to hear what else you could offer in *this* feel/genre”. They’re essentially the new label managers of the music world but are never held to committing to a particular artist for any length of time; making the precarious nature of relying on music for income even more so.

[@afrosensei5308]

@Sharpened_Spoon All of this. It's more about filling up the algorithm than actually building a relationship with artists and following their journey. But to be fair, with the sheer amount of music being uploaded daily, even the curators who genuinely love music can't do that with every submission. It's really a mess

[@_quantreau]

​@@afrosensei5308the great irony of all of this is that submithub was allegedly founded out of frustration with artists unwillingness to build relationships with curators. Only, instead of fixing the transactional nature of the relationship, he decided to double down on it.

[@RobVice]

Well SH is kinda about playing the small numbers game anyway. If you are very lucky, maybe you can get about 10-20k plays from SH but that would be really exceptional IMO. Best result I got was probably around 5-7k plays. Doesn’t help knowing that a lot of those playlists on SH have bots, so majority of the plays you get are not even real. I’ve shortlisted several playlists that I know dig my style and I usually just submit to them and may experiment with a couple newer ones as well, that’s how my average acceptance rate has been about 30-60%. Depending on the genre, if you are trying to push the best levers for getting your music heard then it’s still best to pick few labels you really wanna work with and pigeonholing your production for a while to fit those labels. Once you get more established, you can start experimenting more. Another great tools for getting heard (esp in electronic music) is building relationships with DJs and making DJ mixes yourself. This is how you can start curating your own vibe and building your audience. That’s what I’ve done this year on YT and the results so far have been incredible (I got quite lucky as well, not gonna lie). Hope that helps!

[@MistyMusicStudio]

Man, I would hate my work if I only made music to fit on specific playlists 😅 Kudos to y'all who are keeping at it, sounds extremely frustrating. This industry isn't getting any less saturated either, so I think you're totally right about focusing on the niche groups who will be into your authentic stuff. Something about a thousand hardcore fans being better than a million casual fans right 😁

[@pavera_]

I only started really getting into making music in the past year or so, in my 30s, and it has become one of my favorite and most engaging hobbies. I love doing it, and I love watching your videos to keep me encouraged to continue just building my circle. I have resolved myself to knowing that it's unlikely I'll ever get any *real* attention from the internet hype machine, and I think that is fine. I like making what I make, and if the kick drum at 3 minutes and 41 seconds vibes with me, it's great. Thanks for all the encouraging content for small creators, it's really great stuff.

[@aneeshchengappa]

The accuracy of this video is so astonishing. Especially the submithub responses, I have like 30+ responses exactly like that :') And this video is soooooo relatable for independent artists. Thanks for this, glad to know that someone is going through or knows exactly what we're going through.

[@Official_HONU]

“This documentary was perfect, it has all the qualities of a hit. I really love it, however the color shading in 4:31 was a bit off so I can’t promote this to my audience. Thanks for pouring your soul into this but not for me this time.. KEEP SENDING”

[@ccgooser]

Thanks Cameron for regularly reminding me to just enjoy making music for myself, without getting hung up on all the bullshit associated with trying to "make it big" so to speak. If I come back to a track I made months later and still enjoy hearing it, then in my mind it was a rewarding piece of art that was worthy of creating - even if nobody else has ever heard it. I formed this point of view purely due to your content, and for that I sincerely thank you.

[@stevesoucy5932]

The absolute passion and anger in your voice during that rant at the 27:00 mark...man, that was powerful. Thank you for yet another quality video, Cam.

[@lyrixFH]

My favourite part of the video

[@Gaven7r]

same. But in the end, it will be the same as it ever was. Same as it ever was

[@physics_hacker]

I've been trying to work past this myself lately. Haven't even bothered with SubmitHub really because I know it probably won't help, because my music is that weird niche thing that you can't pigeonhole. Feels like no matter what I do my work isn't heard. But you have inspired me to get my niche playlists in presentable condition and see about spreading them around.

[@leftthechatsound]

where do i listen?

[@PhilipXanderMusic]

Hi, I want to express my deep, sincere appreciation for the *style* of your videos. It's laid back, your voice and way of speaking are pretty down tempo, I love the atmospheric background music... So much content these days is built on hype, loud noises, quick cuts, hot takes. Your videos are like small oases in this hyperactive digital wasteland. Much easier on the soul. Can't thank you enough. (And it goes without saying that I dig your content, I hope.)

[@dieter-4977]

This is why you are the only music production channel I still follow after I decided to step down from my compulsive and financially dangerous journey of making music (but mostly really just buying stuff I didn't knew how to use)

[@zaiaku3430]

You and your channel are a GOLDMINE of mental clarity and much needed direction for creatives. I've had so many "a-ha" moments and breakthroughs watching these kinds of videos. As many have said before, "you're doing God work" and I'm here for it.

[@alexanderkritsek]

Felt it strong in my heart many times...thanks for sharing our STRUGGLE

[@LonnonFoster]

Harsh truth, delivered unapologetically but compassionately. Your analysis is insightful, and your delivery is beautiful. The kick drum at 2:34 kind of takes me out of it, but this is still some of the best content on the interwebs. Thank you!

[@bwah9481]

Was actually expecting a kick drum

[@kevinpannetiermusic]

Standardized quantity versus artistic quality. As always, your video is so on point that it lights up some of my neurons and made me realize several choices that I made unconsciously. My two cents are : to be an happy creative person, a happy musician (or whatever you want to describe yourself), you need to focus on your craft, your art and not rely on other services to provide you happiness or the graal of being recognized one day. Play the artistic card and enjoy the journey, don't let other define your success.

[@LukeBobRobinson]

Absolutely flabbergasted. You've transformed so much as a KZbinr. This is really really important.

[@synapseaudiorecordings]

🎶🙏 Respect. Appreciate your contribution to the creative world. 100%. Telling it like it is. No gimmics, transperant, the real conversation.

[@RigelSounds]

Your timing in terms of what I was lately wondering about is perfect!

[@janeisklar5094]

You know, what I really love about your non-technical videos besides you beeing an incredible writer, producer and narrator, is how the topics you touch about music actually permeate every aspect of human life. At the end of the day everyone, regardless of the domain or how skilled or smart they might be, wants their reality to be heard and appreciated. Everybody is human for the better and the worse.

[@AndrewBrethourMusic]

You can't lose if you make music for the love of music instead of money/followers/etc Your videos are fantastic man! Funny as hell yet intense. And your voice is perfect for ASMR lol you should do audiobooks as well. Cheers, friend!

[@MaddSpazz2000]

I'm extremely interested in hearing your thoughts on the "forced celebration of mediocrity" you mentioned

[@SakuraSamael]

My dude, I think you might be the only KZbinr who simultaneously motivates me to try harder at making music whilst also driving me to completely give up on the dream. It's a very confusing feeling. 😂

[@komobabo]

GotDAMN your videos hit deep Mr.Mustache man! I do wonder where we're headed in the music industry. Your videos and those of Benn Jordan really shine the sun on these issues and expose how this whole thing actually works and how downright horrible it can be with these huge nameless corporations. Strangely though, instead of making me give up, it inspires me to continue grinding away at the stone. I suppose I am a glutton for punishment. Cheers!

[@commodore74]

Thanks for opening up and speaking your mind out. Musicians here I´m sure will appreciate the feeling we´re on the same page.

[@TheStrongSkye]

3:43 I think I've never watched a video that is more relatable 🥹

[@Banafshband]

I truly enjoyed it. I will translate it into Persian so that Iranian and Afghan artists who are facing similar issues can learn from it. Thank you so much.

[@musichette.]

One of the best music content creator on youtube. Keep going mate!

[@scrubbingmonkeys2488]

Cameron.....sir.....this takes you to another level. The subject and content are interesting to me as a musician.....however, the combination of your writing, delivery and video production is top notch. Just the dialog sends us though a roller coaster of hope, fear, regret and at times pure comedy with a firm grip on the laugh button hammer. Of course your voice is always spot on. You have a solid foundation as a writer. Pure imagery

[@DixonBeats]

Yessss, video's longer than an episode of Friends, I'm all for it! Excellent work as always 🙌🏻

[@GayaKessler]

I have a semi-popular playlist on Spotify and I get flooded with playlist submit spam because of it. This playlist is 100% just a personal collection albums of a specific genre. Still I get bombarded with random promotional material. It's super frustrating that this is the way artists feel like they need to get their music across.

[@submithub]

Dylan here. That's not how I would pronounce Ogilvy, but I still love this video.

[@dwdavenport]

Dude, I like you and I like your channel. You’ve become a trusted source for me to explore lots of sound engineering processes(many for the first time)without feeling dumb and out of place. Thanks for your material and your hard work!

[@YannisKazakos]

It's not only your videos that are great and helpful for musicians, it's also the comments of all the amazing guys here that are so interesting, unique and refreshing to read. Amazing work!

[@DragonDrummer2]

Trying to make it in music definitely changed the way music sounds to me. I had to take a step back to get my music to be mine again.

[@SoneczKnote]

What do you mean?

[@habbtah]

Finally I found your channel! It took me a while but I'm finally here and I'm in a mix of angst and relief, but hopefully the relief will be stronger. Thank you for that! Cheers from this independent artist from Brazil and thanks for your content!

[@DavidAllenRose]

I'm listening to your album Motions and Echoes on Amazon Music. Great music to listen to while studying.

[@huskibass]

I am glad you are covering this side of music promotion. Growing my catalogue and using certain promotional resources these past 3 recent years, you start to feel like the shit is rigged, very nepotistic and all the things you covered is great information to be aware of. Nothing is guaranteed when it comes to playlisting/curators at the end of the day, especially when their curation pays them top dollar, quantity prevails while quality suffers. I learned a lot about myself as a tastemaker when i became a daily playlist spotify playlist curator for my own playlist (HUSKI's USB) that when you open the gates for all musicians to submit, you are gonna get some good and bad submissions and gonna expose your ultimate music taste buds to make sure your delivering quality/unique music to your targeted audience. I also learned as an artist not to take the rejection process personally because curators are just very specific in taste and doesn't necessarily mean your music sucks, it's always good to have a system in place where curator can explain why the rejection was made like dailyplaylists and others have it set up to give assurance and clarity on the rejection like it doesn't fit or so on.

[@RobVice]

Hit the nail on the head with this video, we are all playing a game of trying to conform to current music “meta” and it really sucks from a creative standpoint. Every project I start I always have to keep in mind that I can’t deviate too much from the meta or I am probably wasting my time and money.

[@KevinWickerProductions]

GREAT JOB BEARDED ONE! You have summed up the music biz meat wheel. You have certainly covered the music world to a tee! BRAVO! I came along before the 'online' world; better known as the old school modus operandi. (Back in the days when demos were copied to reel tape BEFORE cassette) Regardless of the changes brought on by home recording, much hasn't changed. If there isn't money to be made, nobody has the time. (Thus comes the proverbial "song pluggers") Trash bins were full (much like the ones on your desktop). I spent 20 years on Music Row, and made one significant conclusion; talent is considered cheap.True talent is rare and easily gets lost in the shuffle because generally, there aren't enough people who will recognize it and invest in it. The artist is left alone with all the hats, and no-one is capable of wearing all of them.

[@blehm_7403]

holy shit the intro talking about veela and ramses B is such an insanely specific but real thing

[@EyesforSkies]

This video does a really good job at highlighting how high entropy industries really suck to compete in, great work!

[@MarteenMayjer]

This was hands down the best video I've seen of yours. Incredibly vindicating and therapeutic for me to watch. I left the music world about a year ago after being in the game for a good 15 years or so. I got tired after banging my head against a wall trying to make my music fit into that 20% (and definitely lol-ed at those hyper-specific comments I'd get on Submithub). Realizing that my job as a music producer was feeding a content machine and realizing that I was actually doing less and less music every day, I got pretty jaded on the actual music side of things. Like I said, it's nice to see this sorta thing and not feel like I was being gaslit by not trying hard enough, not producing enough content, not knowing enough about marketing, or whatever other random excuse exists. I wasted so much time and money on "gurus" (some of which you showed clips of here) to help with marketing plans lol. I'm in a much better place now mentally and physically having walked away and am very fortunate I had other skills to fall back on. It's definitely cool seeing your take on the experiences of independent artists even though I'm not really in it anymore. Thanks for all you do :)

[@bardicdad]

This makes me immensely sad reminiscing about my own challenges promoting my music. It is somewhat cathartic knowing I'm not alone. I wish we could just sit down and chat over a beer and talk about it. Thanks for sharing.

[@JimBReay]

Oh man, this went HARD, and I loved it. Thank you so much.

[@AewonWolf]

I really appreciate your insights on these things, cause you seem to always take a balanced approach of understanding, while digging at the real issues. Thank you and keep up the great work

[@VenusTheory]

Glad you enjoyed the video! A lot of writing/research goes into them but I'm glad it comes through in the end!

[@SquareWaveHeaven]

One of my favourite musicians of late has been Pilotredsun/sky and as far as I can tell, he just uploads all his music for free (or his fans do) and I THINK he just blew up algorythmically. As an artist who's experienced a growing audience in the early 2000s and next to no real viral success, I can't tell you how inspiring that is to me. I also tried to stop caring so much about the numbers but you know, they're there, and I know how numbers work. I've seen it from video game. You have to make it big number!

[@fredrikio]

Dear you. This is just fantastic. I've just recently discovered this channel, but wow. Great narrator. Almost at the level of a famous actor. The content and topics take different paths, but you tie it all together in the end somehow. Very few people I know find that balance. Whatever it is you do, to make this stuff happen, please, please keep on doing it! Many thanks!

[@nagandthebay3099]

really grateful to you man, love your videos, your honesty and integrity. Not just another tutorial channel but one that explores and celebrates art and its meaning. You're doing something really special thank you.

[@tunesofeleven]

Dude this is cinematic excellence! ❤

[@JanusCycle]

I love music, though I have no ability to create any myself. I prefer to find music through exploring artists and random chance than by using Spotify or playlists. When I create my playlists, I do it for the art and the music. You have made me want to share my playlists online. Not for money, which I didn't even realize was a thing, but just because I love music. Great video, thank you!

[@colortheory]

Enjoyed the video, as I do all of your videos! I'm an artist, curator, and SubmitHub advocate. I love it. It's certainly the best pitching option for both artists and curators. I run a niche genre playlist and clearly define what I'm looking for in my quick pitch. As long as a track falls within those general guidelines, I add what I genuinely like. Without SubmitHub, I wouldn't accept submissions, period. It's way too much work. The money I get from 50-60 submissions per week doesn't cover what I spend on Facebook ads to promote the playlist. I genuinely don't see a problem here, but I agree that the critiques can be frustrating to nonsensical. For me, I know that many tracks aren't going to work within the first 10 seconds. It's just obvious. I've got the musical vocabulary to explain why in what I hope is a satisfactory way, but many don't, and many don't speak English as their first language. My advice is to ask for honest feedback because it has the highest acceptance rate, and then ignore it. One error I spotted in the video is the math on assuming we listen to each track for 3.5 minutes. We're only required to listen for 20 seconds, and I'd guess I listen on average for 90 seconds. But the point remains that it's no way to make a living!

[@kentmillerstudios]

Deep. Thanks for everything. Added you to my spotify playlist. Excellent stuff man!

[@axelrose2861]

That ending was just too good. Too good. You make the best content I've ever seen. Thankyou

[@evvldvrk1music-official]

glad I'm not the only one saying it. the music industry is based on something called "payola" success isn't defined by talent or how good a song is, it happens according to how much money you spend on promo. the entire music industry is a pay to win scam. thanks for the video! maybe more will see the issues and confront the music industry forcing them to change the problem (it's a nice wish but I'm not holding my breath since they've been doing it for decades and I highly doubt they will stop anytime soon). I've been around for 20+ years, and the ONLY reason nobody has heard of me or my music is because I don't have the money to take part in the music industry's pay to win scam. And I know I'm NOT alone, there's plenty of us out there not getting the plays or exposure we deserve.

[@portrise]

Amen!!!

[@Golegator]

As a longtime Submithub curator I have to say that 90% of the songs that are sent to me are really, really in need of work - both in their composition and production. I am talking VST drums, thin distorted guitars, instruments played off-time, vocals being way too quiet... Also in my case I have limited possibilities to approve submission, so I really do have to be picky. I run a blog so writing hundred pieces on upcoming bands that do not bring any traffic and therefore money to my website is a lot of work for a mere 50 cents per submission. And I have to keep the quality and audience in mind. I know it is hard to get rejected, but I have always approved a band with good production and mix - even if I do not like the song. And I do always give feedback on what to improve.

[@YungstarProd]

That's honest. Thank you!

[@WinterhouseRecords]

Out of curiosity - what exactly is wrong with VST Drums? Did you mean poorly written/mixed VST Drums, or just VST drums in general?

[@bestdisco1979]

⁠@@WinterhouseRecordsthat’s exactly what I was thinking. Aren’t most drums electronically produced especially with dance styles? I’d like to know what credentials gives the person the seemingly superior knowledge to make these judgments.

[@WinterhouseRecords]

@@bestdisco1979 All I know is that if a curator is blocking people from success because they use VSTs… That isn’t curation, it’s purely gatekeeping. Which is what the whole video was about… Not saying OP meant that, giving benefit of the doubt that they meant something else. But imagine listening to something, enjoying it, then they tell you they made it with a Moog VST instead of an actual Moog. Suddenly now it isn’t worth hearing?? Wtf lol

[@paulie-g]

@@bestdisco1979 Yes, however this may not be appropriate for the genres OP works with. I'd certainly want live, or live-sounding drums in a classic rock song, say. In terms of EDM, yes, absolutely, but not all synth drums are equal. As an example, a real 303 sounds different to a plugin. You can absolutely make even plugin drum parts sound great, but it requires more work than just selecting '303 something' and putting it on the timeline, like layering with real drums for texture.

[@buckycore]

Let me just say that the recent videos youve relased are some of the finest videos ever made on KZbin. Ever. They're beautiful to look at, and you know how to captivate viewers with your well scripted, documentary style. You could make the process of doing taxes or cleaning a toilet seem like the most interesting topic in the world. You're videos are also hypnotic and soothing. Which leads us up to this video: this one is your absolute best. Especially that intro story. Man...just. wow.

[@user-jg5cm7rc6r]

Your content helps me a lot and also you're my type so its easier to look at the screen and absorb the advice, thanks hot wise grumpy man

[@VenusTheory]

I do what I can - I put my pants on both legs at a time like everyone else haha.

[@Draxacon]

Great video Venus Theory. There’s a lot of people in existence, and with the internet, one song or performance can be amplified to reach the entire world. So now you don’t just have your local artists to compete against for people’s ears, but the entire world. I feel that now more than ever it’s important to have a physical musical presence in your community. Cause there it’s a lot less saturated than online. In addition, I find there’s more meaning to something made by someone you know. So take advantage of that, and go play at your local clubs and bars! The people there will pay attention to your music more than most internet goers 🙂

[@joshuamorganmusic]

Thanks so much for this Cam! I’ve been down the submithub bummer train a few times. Glad to hear I’m not alone. Keep doin whatcha do mang🤘

[@spikeafrican8797]

Best documentary ever on this topic. This runs sooo deep. The psychological dynamics of creators and middlemen for the current model of "success ". It is the same as the old model but decentralized! This is a huge insight for me. Brilliant, thank you.

[@nhyravirakahofficial]

You always make such an impact with the way your 'perform' these points, and I appreciate it.

[@SakariKempas]

Really good video. Thank you for spending the time of making it for us to enjoy.

[@harrr53]

The music industry is a scam preying on the dreams of young musicians. It was before streaming and it remains after it. I've always been into making music, but never into selling it. And I don't feel like I have lost out for it. Music becoming my job would kill all the joy I get from it.

[@nsjx]

Thank you for taking the time, for the sheer Love of Music. it bleeds from your every frame. (and thanks for camp x tip had no idea)

[@simonr.4668]

You always have the most interesting and relatable thoughts! Thanks for everything.

[@ListenToAlphaSix]

My experience with submit hub, I’ve found…..finding a curator is like finding a fan, and should be treated as such, when a fan likes your music they come back for more, so you invest in finding your playlists get accepted and denied, and the ones that resonate are the ones that you target….you find info about those people, what the tendencies are within that playlist and submit to them again later and from building your curator fan base. It’s same as building your fanbase, you hunt and you sift through the hey stack of personal taste. I’ve found producers that curate are gonna gonna be like a wine connoisseur with sound, if you look into their playlists, it’s usually a dead giveaway, with their pure production based music. Vet curators by looking for signs that you discover, remember engineers often forget to eat on time so many of their poor responses often have hunger mixed with their responses, and maybe….you (people in general) have hunger mixed in your reactions when reading….

[@bazejkaczmarek8271]

I guess it's the kind of like pitching to radio hosts - I attended some classes on that topic and the advice was similar to what you're describing with curators. Learn about them, their tastes, make personal connections etc

[@daviHuggMonster]

happy that I am old enough....that I completely ignore all these services to feed my music taste/listening, I am old fashioned...I research and listen. I don't even have spotify installed on my pc nor do I use it on my phone. If some music interests me enough I buy it, either digital or physical, though I prefer physical releases. These days music has become cheesy and to find the rare gold nugget...you need to dig dig dig...

[@raefswain673]

You have taught me SO much about the music industry in just the short few days I've been following you. Thank you so much!!

[@Makio001]

dude i love your content. love your music stuff, and your branching out videos like this are just as thoughtful and well done. keep being you, keep being rad.

[@EduardoMano]

Dude, on an unrelated comment: you're the Agent Smith of music production. Your voice, tone and timber. Texture. You've got it all. Now, about the video: once again, this is pure gold. Thank you for sharing your insights and inputs.

[@kennybissettsongs]

Even if you manage to get on a playlist and get millions of streams, the machinery of streaming services takes most of the money. I do agree that it is really important to recognize that most of the people in the world will never hear your music. Thus, finding an audience turns into a tiny subset of listeners. How to find them, no idea.

[@jetique]

Facebook advertising has done that for me. Although it’s not perfect, at least the ads are pushing my music to a somewhat interested audience. They follow me on Spotify and Instagram instantly and like save my songs to their library. Other means didn’t work for me, as social media algorithms don’t show my content to new people at all!

[@harknessmfa6215]

Extremely Brilliant on all levels, had me laughing and crying, so close to the bone and such killer delivery. Well done and Thank You!

[@EnejJohhem]

I don't use submithub, I just put my music out there, even if no one listens, cause it's for me.

[@FormulaXFD]

I believe there is a variant of your idea (we're the ones who can make the change), we need to stop being isolated from our peers. Much of this business, like submithub, exists in driving apart producers/musicians/etc into isolation, where then the corporatists become the filter for everything to feed through. If we can form peer groups who can do the peer group 'locally' it only becomes a matter of time before a group has the networking power to overcome the playlist mania.

[@hyperrealhandgrenade6578]

A lot of these issues seem solveable by focusing on building a reputation with the actual humans in your local scene. I have yet to branch out there yet, but it seems so much more viable.

[@ZodiacEntertainment2]

As a wannabe folk musician I think this is true, but the issue is that not every "scene" is going to be fruitful and not every style of music can be easily performed live for this kind of networking.

[@pretentia3709]

Oh Cameron, this one is truly epic. One of your best. You really need to get these down on "paper" and out to a wider audience. Send this one to Wired as an OP-ED

[@makamqore]

really impressed with the scriptwriting and video editing style for your most recent videos, Venus Theory!

[@brandonk.3155]

While unfortunate, it is reassuring to see other artists who have used SubmitHub (and others) and been rejected - at least we know we aren't alone. Lest we forget that some of these curators are no more informed than the average person about what makes a song good or not. Now we have gatekeepers who might not necessarily know what makes good music granting access. Interesting times indeed.

[@nubbyy]

IMO, if you're confident in yourself, you shouldn't care about feedback from these curators. I don't even think it should be part of the whole thing. As an artist, go in expecting 95% rejections and know that that doesn't devalue your music. Taste is subjective. However, if you aren't confident enough in what you're submitting to not care about feedback, go back to the drawing board. That's an indication you need to keep creating and honing your craft.

[@domsolanke1619]

Look imma let my freak flag fly and keep making weird music and posting it on Spotify. Whatever happens, happens.

[@thespotted3690]

Lmaoo, what is ur music

[@cropcircle5693]

This may be your funniest and most bitingly accurate video yet! I intend on taking what I've learned here and applying it to my Smurf Doom Afrobeat Bliss Core concept album about mustard. See you fools on the charts!

[@VenusTheory]

Please do!

[@jazsebastian]

Cool video mate, love watching your stuff, keeps me mentally in the zone and aware but at the same time reflective and constantly in the right headspace to keep fighting, building and creating!

[@sisyphushappyband]

This has been the toughest part of music creation for me. I write all of my music alone, playing every instrument myself, so my ingrained notion of playing relentless shows to get the word out is no longer an option. Writing hardcore songs about communism, straight edge, and veganism is already a pretty limiting niche, and the ethics of doing so also often comes with abstention from the bullshit artifice that comes with social media and streaming 'marketing" - which often leaves me in the state at 27:15. I can't speak for everyone, but I just want more folks to hear my music and message to help spread class consciousness and help the loner kids who feel isolated from others around them because of their worldview feel like they're not alone. That's what hardcore gave me, and I hope to pay it back. I empathize with this rant hard!

[@Sergio-nb4hj]

Wow this was nice to see! VEGAN STRAIGHT EDGE til I die!! And as long as there are ppl like me checking the 'new releases' section every week on bandcamp for tags like 'xvx' or 'edge metal', there will always be SOME kind of audience for your stuff (and I'd be happy to check out your band!) We're very lucky to be in the realm of punk and metal where the audiences are by default more invested in the underground and willing to put money down to support promising and innovative projects. Sadly, can't say the same for EDM... Some small subgenres have their die-hards but none of their subcultures seem to reward dedication the way hardcore kids, punks, and metalheads do.

[@theelephantintheroom69]

I personally feel like SubmitHub's premium credits should be returned to you if you don't get accepted. That way these pompous scamming "curators" stop getting paid to describe your track to you while never putting it on their playlist. They'd actually get paid if they accept your track and wont be if they reject just reject all their submissions.

[@punchilux5783]

They key to submithub is to not ask for feedback. 50 bucks is nothing in the big picture of music production. Also, if you target the right playlists, you definitely get placements. The major key is to not get feedback though, it will just mess w/ ur head!

[@idespisegravity]

The big problem is that all of those placements are for music that already exists. Rehashes of the same stuff over and over again. Music SHOULD BE explorative and creative, but both of those things will all but guarantee you no placements because they don't fit into an already established niche. You simply cannot market creativity in the current climate.

[@scottb2698]

The metrics say people who ask for feedback get placed more often. They key is to either not read the feedback, or learn to understand that playlist curators are not professionals, not everyone will like your music, there WILL be people who DO like your music, and feedback is just one persons opinion (unless you hear the same thing over and over).

[@dallanby]

Cameron, that was intense and excellent. Thanks for taking the time to produce such a high quality thesis. Awesome stuff.

[@frankenmizer828]

VT, that was superb. I can't imagine the amount of work that went into it, let alone the journey you took learning and experiencing it.

[@jno_us]

I love this video, very informative and no bullshit. Been doing music for a long time now & it's nice seeing someone telling the truth rather than selling something.

[@MattFlanc]

Great video! You address a lot of issues and went pretty deep on this one. There's a lot I resonate with and I hope people like you can move this industry in a direction that's better for both us (the artists), and the consumers. Stay creative!