VeRA: a tool for state surveillance?

[@Phoenixfuerst]

Once these systems are in place, it's easy to flip the switch and broaden what they can do. I don't need a new Stasi, nor a new Gestapo.

[@kolomaznik333]

The story is same all the time: They say it is meant only for terrorist and murders etc. but in reality it is aimed (and will be eventually used) against general populations. Last 100 years should teach people dangers of totalitarian(ish) goverment and power of the big state but see look here instead there is funny tiktok video with dancing monkey...

[@vertexrikers]

Public money, public code. I'd oppose every piece of closed-source 3rd party software to be used by anyone dealing with personal data - especially when that 3rd party sits in another country.

[@kayemni]

Yeah I really don't understand why they simply don't develop an in-house system

[@stephenlee5929]

@@kayemni I think the reason they don't just develop it in-house/in-country, is most EU developers know how dangerous such a system can be, in the right hands, let alone when it gets into the wrong hands. Most US software developers either don't understand the issue or believe they are the 'good guys' so it's not a problem. Note I'm not convinced open source is a good option, but in EU, preferably in country would make me feel less alarmed.

[@kayemni]

@@stephenlee5929 idk such system isn't inherently bad. Well it is not clear what this system does or doesn't do but data analytics and AI for crime prevention is a pretty basic thing honestly and a lot of research already went into it including from European researchers. Open sourcing the system will allow you to clearly understand what it does and access whether it violates data protection laws or creates ethical concerns. Besides am pretty sure EU devs would build this with no pb if contracted, and honestly if this was the main concern hiring non EU devs and Open sourcing the code would yield a similar result, so I Don't think this is the problem here they likely went with the simplest and cheapest solution even if it's clearly the wrong and most dangerous one in this case

[@AndreaBorgia]

Palantir Is involved, that's all I need to know to reject this shit.

[@realroadrunnr]

My thoughts exactly. And even if I knew nothing aboiut the company but had only read Lord of the Rings, I'd still feel the same way ;-)

[@vaclav_fejt]

You've got to hand it to some companies: They pick a very fitting name which should scare people off, but they know it won't.

[@ohauss]

In any case, it's ludicrous to include witnesses and victims in this. Not the least, it may reduce people's willingness to be a witness, for fear of being suspected of a crime tomorrow. And I still remember my time studying in Würzburg, where regularly, the Bavarian police would round up everyone who looked kind of out of the ordinary - be it by skin color, clothing or hairdo. While that was more than 30 years ago, various news reports in the time since make it hard to believe that being different is nowadays not considered a serious issue.

[@caccioman]

War in München nicht anders

[@Quazarthegreat]

Actling like the NSU is a reason for more state surveillance is like making someone burn down a building and then using that to crack down on cri- waaaaiiiiiiiittttt a minute!!!

[@wishkahzyricks]

1:50 'Palentir' - is that Palantir Technologies, co-founded by a right-wing businessman Peter Thiel, whose long-time close ally J.D. Vance has just been chosen as the vice-presidential candidate for 2024 US election?

[@AlexanderVlasov]

Yes it is. Of course it is.

[@GameCyborgCh]

I like that the swiss just mandated that all software within public sector bodies have to be open source. Every piece of software a state uses should be open source, transparency is very important

[@Narethian]

I absolutely don't want this, I hope it can be stopped in court, but I don't have high hopes. I'm sure the police will try to use these tools for anything they can get away with, they already tried something similar during the pandemic with the luca app. It was a clear violation of the law, but they tried it anyway (cases in Mainz and Brandenburg as far as I can remember). We have to be very careful what tools we give to our law enforcement.

[@youtubekommentar5494]

Professional criminals will have enough time and ressources to find workarounds. So from time to time, some people have to be called serios criminels in the media to have reasons to keep that system, even if a high court says "That person is innocent concerning the things mentioned in the media, there were just smaller things (or even nothing)", of course some years later...

[@minski76]

"Only used for serious crimes." It's in the hands of the same people who have put innocent citizens under preemptive arrest for several weeks for the crime of carrying tubes of glue or wearing high-visibility vests. "Serious crime" is traditionally a highly malleable term when used by politicians and/or police.

[@RoonMian]

Yeah, I don't want this tool in the hands of any law enforcement or judiciary. I especially don't want it in the hands of Bavarian law enforcement and judiciary.

[@AeroxMZL]

Yeah, or people who wanted to sit in a park

[@MiTheMer]

Don't play, dumb, there were reasons of suspicion for the people with glue (wanting to block a road) and "high-visibility vests", does that refer to Querdenken "Spaziergänge" who were trying to circumvent the corona laws?

[@Narethian]

@@RoonMian Agreed. I hope the courts rule against it, but even if they do, it will probably take years to get a decision.

[@ihbarddx]

The broader the net you cast, the greater the number of false positives you get.

[@caccioman]

the Bavarian state („Freistaat“) always has been a „lesser democracy“…

[@kaibroeking9968]

The only thing I can think of is "Tuttle? His name is Buttle. There must be some mistake" "We don't make mistakes"

[@skippytheaustralian9438]

Andrew! Best German Channel!

[@TheGoukaruma]

They shouldn't use CIA software that's for sure.

[@ossital1808]

thanks

[@johngorentz6409]

Here in the U.S. I like to point out that "it will help the police prevent crimes" is never a sufficient reason to grant new police powers. It's a reason, but it's not a sufficient reason. If it was a sufficient reason, our law enforcement would be more like the USSR's. There has to be more than that. (The last I remember pointing this out is in connection with our civil asset forfeiture laws, which are often subject to abuse.)

[@Soguwe]

A common, federal database that can search all other police databases is long, long due The problem isn't the connectivity, not the fact that it might access information that should not be visible, the problem is User Interface Just showing information isn't enough, it has to be framed properly. When the police search the database, they do it in a specific mindset. They're looking for suspects, or people connected to drug cases, or incidents with a certain type of car. But that's not helpful, because it frames the results in that context, if that's accurate or not. You need clear, legible tags, preferably color coded. Have witnesses in yellow, suspects in green and victims in red. Use bold, large text declaring the connection to the case before even showing the information. Break up the framing and supplement a new one. And accessing information doesn't have to be bad, as long as it's handled the right way. Have the system access it to confirm if something is in the database, and then just show the bare bones of information that can be shared legally

[@HeadsFullOfEyeballs]

I don't trust the average cop to understand any type of abstract information, frankly.

[@Yotanido]

The idea is not necessarily all that bad. Police do need better communication and I'm also not entirely against algorithmic searches through existing police data. As long as it is made abundantly clear how a person is related to any given case, and by default only perpetrators' data is searched. I personally don't mind too much if a system can look through lots of data, as long as this data only gets shown to actual people if there is good reason for it. However, it being made by an American company, with ties to the US, and no source code provided? Absolutely not. Hire a German company to make something similar and insist on having access to the source code, which should be independently vetted by another company. This is accessing very sensitive data, which is a huge risk for both malicious and negligent abuse.

[@vortimerofkent128]

Them having access to the data of 30 million people while Bayern only having 13.4 million inmates sounds rather dodgy.

[@RawbeardX]

you know you can trust people that call their company after an evil artifact.

[@caccioman]

😂

[@sigmaoctantis1892]

A palantir was a device for making video calls. It was no more evil than your phone.

[@caccioman]

@@sigmaoctantis1892 A major theme of palantír usage is that while the stones show real objects or events, those using the stones had to "possess great strength of will and of mind" to direct the stone's gaze to its full capability.[T 2] The stones were an unreliable guide to action, since what was not shown could be more important than what was selectively presented. A risk lay in the fact that users with sufficient power could choose what to show and what to conceal to other stones: in The Lord of the Rings, a palantír has fallen into the Enemy's hands, making the usefulness of all other existing stones questionable. Commentators such as the Tolkien scholar Paul Kocher note the hand of providence in their usage, while Joseph Pearce compares Sauron's use of the stones to broadcast wartime propaganda. Tom Shippey suggests that the message is that "speculation", looking into any sort of magic mirror (Latin: speculum) or stone to see the future, rather than trusting in providence, leads to error.

[@stephenlee5929]

@@sigmaoctantis1892 Sort of agree, the artifact was not evil, only its use. Seems appropriate somehow. My mobile phone is not evil, but its ring maybe.

[@sigmaoctantis1892]

@@stephenlee5929 A closer analogy to the palantir would be a caller who turns up on your phone

[@jacekwesoowski1484]

With software it's never the question of that the software is for. It's always the question of what it can do. Suppose you have a database of traffic violations that keeps your phone number and address because you witnessed a car crash. That's fine, because if someone needs to investigate e.g. a repeat offender, then they can reach you quickly for a testimony. Suppose you also have a database of building safety issues. There was a fire downstairs from your office, and the police collected your witness account after it happened. Now suppose you have a system that connects these databases together and allows you to make queries like "tell me everything you know about such and such person". Whoever is making that query, can now create your complete dossier: where you live, where you work, what's a typical time when you're crossing a street etc. The more databases you connect, the more complete the picture. It also makes it easier to infer the data that wasn't kept! A classic example is a system that doesn't record your phone calls, but does record whom you called and for how long. If you called a suicide helpline and talked to them for an hour, then guessing what you talked about isn't that hard. This is perhaps useful when you're following a lead of a person who bought dangerous chemicals in Leipzig, rented a car in Hamburg, met up with a known Russian spy in Munich, bought an apartment with a good view on the Bundestag building, and also posts far-fight content on the internet under a pseudonym, but you know it's them because you have their phone number in some kind of telecom database. But it's very bad when you're following an activist who's organizing a street protest against the new law that makes all political parties (except one) illegal. Long story short: - systems that collect a lot of data but only allow specialized queries are mostly safe - systems that allow generalized and flexible queries but don't keep the data are less safe, but the damage they can be used for is limited because of the limited amount of data - systems that collect a lot of data and let you do anything with it are potentially dangerous Practical solutions: - limit the kinds of databases that can be joined together - limit the kinds of databases that allow advanced queries (so that e.g. you can't pull a complete dossier of a person from a PC at a traffic department in a town 400 km away) - record advanced queries and store the information about who made them and why - this doesn't prevent queries but it adds accountability to them - of course make all the source code public and available for scrutiny. This should be a number 1 requirement to all software contractors everywhere in the EU

[@hanshartfiel6394]

That already exists here in the UK and is called the Police National Computer. Not only that, they are already using facial recognition cameras in some places.

[@inbb510]

Good. As crimes get more complex and sophisticated, better surveying of citizens are needed to ensure order and stability. People said the same thing when CCTV cameras were introduced. AI facial recognise the future for controlling society.

[@orange13]

@@inbb510 that is very short- sighted. If crimes get more complex and sophisticated. criminals will always find ways to avoid easy detection. on the flip side, millions and millions of innocent people get surveyed, recognized and their data stored.

[@inbb510]

@@orange13 , urgh not the "criminals don't follow laws" argument again...

[@orange13]

@@inbb510 that is not an argument as it is a fact. not following laws is essentially the definition of being a criminal.

[@soundscape26]

@@inbb510 The crimes that get more complex and sophisticated ones are the white collar ones for which CCTV cameras are of no use at all.

[@Nala15-Artist]

My husband studied at Uni-Hamburg. He always tells me of a caricature that he saw pinned to a wall back then (early 2010s). A cat asking a mouse how many mice were usually at home in this hole in the wall at this time and how many exits and entryways there were and noting it down with very hungry eyes. It was a caricature concerning the census in the 1980s. He always uses it as an example of how complacent we have become, as that kind of information many people have no problem now volunteering to facebook and the public at large.

[@robertwilloughby8050]

Good. I've always advocated for guilty until proven innocent. If you can't prove you haven't committed an offence, you've committed an offence - let's call it "Criminaly unable to prove you haven't committed a crime" and it has a fixed penalty of 5 years in prison. That will kneecap crime at source.

[@NPP_1]

I don't know whether you're joking or just a crazy lunatic, which worries me

[@Wayclarke]

I won't pretend to understand this well enough to have an opinion, but since it's Bavaria I'm just gonna say it's bad.

[@RoonMian]

Can't go wrong with that.

[@marge2548]

I highly oppose buying a software literally of which no one in the country knows how it really works. On the other hand, a solution in order to connect police forces of the Bundesländer and within the Länder more effectively would be a rally good idea.

[@fumble_brewski5410]

If this software is provided by an American company, then you can be sure that there is a “back door” embedded in the code to allow for “easy access” by certain State “actors.”

[@blockwearingman]

so ein smartes system

[@ziggystardust1973]

I think this should at best only be allowed to look through people who actually got convicted, and honestly not even those.

[@sebastiant4597]

Could be worse. People could just randomly exploit their entire lives on social media, even unasked for. Oh.... Guess I'm too late.

Using a software nobody knows what it is doing, applied to extremely sensitive data, and connecting all databases together ??? How would this be possible in Germany ?

[@RainerPeterFeller]

Greater crimes like climate demonstants ... but not against nazi terrorists ...

[@davianthule2035]

well I can answer that question for you rewboss, i.e on american intelligence services having access to bavarian police databases, the answer is yes, yes they do. If the software is made by an american company and it has any relationship to signal and information technology, the US government can and very often will force the company, whether it wants to or not, to help various intelligence programs, not to mention its basically just common knowledge at this point that, should the US not have access to that somehow (Bavaria having unusually good cyber security in its state), german intelligence will, legally or illegally, freely hand that information over. Ive had to factor this in before myself when i worked in cyber security, i.e do I need to consider US intelligence a threat actor or not for customers, the answer was generally no (and the 2 examples were it was, are now sanctioned by the eu anyway). American intelligence however is, not really a threat to the regular european, america is even less interested in what your up to in germany etc, however, the moment you cease to be a regular Fritz and become a person of interest (such as a politician, or a rich powerful individual), suddenly US intelligence matters, oh, are you getting in the way of vague american interests and the carrot failed? Oh look at this embarassing or dangerous information about something you did ten years ago suddenly landing in the hands of the german press, what a shame. etc etc. We can absolutely deny american access to the Eu like that but our governments choose not to for the time being, namely because, american eyes will tell us if they see russian eyes etc. Intelligence agencies though are absolutely by far the biggest threat in society, they are sketch actors in a healthy liberal democracy, but what happens if, a neonazi government with the spy infromation of the NSA emerges, i.e knows every single lgbt, roma, jewish, etc person in germany, where they live, politics and a detailed psych profile with an estimated 90% accuracy (because you can literally build such a psych profile based off someone's facebook likes alone). Fun stuff, really hope as an lgbt person that I don't end up under a facist government or anything.

[@jannetteberends8730]

Het middel is erger dan de kwaal

[@swedneck]

how about instead of increased surveillance and funding for the police, we treat the actual causes that turn people to crime? Like providing better education, safe environments, guaranteed income and basic necessities, etc etc etc.. But of course that's not flashy nor does it let politicians sneakily give tax money to their friends.

[@tillneumann406]

While I am critical of surveillance, prophylactic data rentention and all...what is the English word for "Stammtischgelaber"?

Why can't the Bavarian (or any other German) police develop this in-house? Germany doesn't suffer from a lack of developers

[@tillneumann406]

Because it will take 20 years, have a 2,000-per cent cost overrun and be full of bugs and glitches... if past such attempts serve as examples.

[@newu3563]

Doesn’t Germany have their own software developers and intelligent minds?

[@johaquila]

With home-grown software there is no guarantee that the CIA will have access to all the data. Some deciders see that as a serious disadvantage. Or rather, those who are manipulating these deciders do.

[@RadimentriX]

as if any kind of surveilance would actually help prevent crimes. them using only the data they already have doesn't sound too bad, i already thought it's some bundestrojaner-shit again, but even them surveiling someone doesn't mean they actually do something before the terrorist attack happens. regarding that stuff the german police is a joke and the polititians would love to have the stasi back...

[@justafriend5361]

So you want us to determine if it is orwellian or kafkaesque? Bin ich froh, dass mich das als Schweizer allerhöchstens tangiert...

[@stephenlee5929]

I wish I understood this reference. Maybe its as well I don't....? Is it similar to waiting for Godot? I can wait.

[@justafriend5361]

@@stephenlee5929 I wrote I am glad this affects me only minor if at all as a Swiss. At least I hope so.

[@stephenlee5929]

@@justafriend5361 Sorry google give a slight but different translation I'm glad that as a Swiss this only affects me... I was confused how it only affected the Swiss, and why that would be good. Thank you for clarification. Oh I do hope this is stopped. I'm British and scared.

[@liamtahaney713]

Wow this is pretty antigerman. Usually I look to Germans to spearheading and upholding data protection for the rest of us. So that's yucky

[@jc-fy1wl]

Germany gave us the Gestapo and Stasi, so could we actually say this isn't un-Germam at all, rather exactly what we would expect from Germany?

[@RoonMian]

It's Bavaria. The Texas of Germany. The rest of Germany doesn't claim them.

[@RoonMian]

@@jc-fy1wl "Germany gave us the Gestapo and Stasi" Correct. Germans lived through the bad of what this kind of state surveillance can bring. Which is exactly why Germans today by and large vehemently reject this kind of invasion of privacy. And that makes it very antigerman today.

[@galdavonalgerri2101]

@@RoonMian Is it Texas or Utah? I mean where do these religious fundamentalists live who require by state law that a religious symbol be displayed in every government building? No, these are not Morons (or is it spelled Mormons?). I mean bavarian catholics. Due to the large number of covered-up and unsolved cases of child abuse, catholics could almost be classified as organized crime.

[@jc-fy1wl]

​@@RoonMian those people are quickly dying out.

[@oliverraven]

Obvious Bayern-Stasi is obvious.

[@yeetyeet7070]

the creep of fascism is upon every country, Lenin writes that Fascism is a very late stage of Capitalism that is a nigh inevitable stage before Capitalism collapses

[@theoztreecrasher2647]

Could you write what he opined about the collapse of Communism? It would be interesting to hear from an expert what caused the fall of the Soviets and their associates.

[@deutschermichel5807]

Gab es jemals einen römisch-deutschen König mit dem Herrschernamen Karl, der nicht (später) zum römisch-deutschen Kaiser gekrönt wurde? Der letzte römisch-deutsche _Kaiser_ namens Karl war Kaiser Karl VII. aus dem Hause Wittelsbach. Ich frage mich nur, ob die Zahl der römisch-deutschen _Könige_ identisch ist. So war beispielsweise der letzte _Kaiser_ Friedrich im römischen Kaisertum seines Namens der dritte. Weil aber manche seiner vorausgegangenen Namensvettern im deutschen Königtum nie die Kaiserkrone erlangten, muss die Nummer der Könige namens Friedrich höher als drei liegen. Glaub ich zumindest, keine Ahnung :D

[@varana]

Man zählt generell nur römische _Könige_ , egal ob sie später auch offiziell Kaiser waren oder nicht. Heinrich I. wurde nie zum Kaiser gekrönt, trotzdem setzt man die Heinriche dann mit II. fort. Genauso mit Rudolf I. (König 1273-1291) und dann Rudolf II. (König ab 1575, Kaiser seit 1576). Eine separate Kaiserzählung hat man nie eingeführt, da beides immer eng zusammengehörte. Und ab Maximilian I. hat man sich die zusätzliche Kaiserkrönung ganz gespart. (Karl V. hat sich noch nachträglich vom Papst krönen lassen, aber da hatte er sich schon einige Jahre als Kaiser bezeichnet.) Sprich: Ab ~1500 sind Könige immer auch Kaiser, da gibt's keine Diskrepanz mehr. Was die Karls angeht: Jeder König Karl war auch Kaiser. Karl IV., weil er vom Papst gekrönt wurde, Karl V. - VII. gleich von Anfang an durch die Königswahl. Im Gegenteil, man könnte argumentieren, daß es mehr _Kaiser_ als römische Könige mit Namen Karl gegeben hat. Karl IV. war eigentlich der erste römische König mit diesem Namen, hat aber die alten Karolinger mitgezählt, die sich selbst aber nie als _römische_ Könige bezeichnet haben. Karl II. hat noch nichtmal im Ostfrankenreich regiert. ;)

[@deutschermichel5807]

@@varana vielen Dank! Zur Vereinfachung meine ich mit „römisch-deutscher König“ aber alle Könige des ostfränkischen Reichs, das später Regnum Romanorum genannt wurde und dessen Herrscher sich gegen Ende hin „König in Germanien“ titulierten (bis 1806). Außerdem zähle ich alle fränkischen Herrscher mit, die vor der Gründung des „deutschen“ Reichs wie wir es kennen unter den Konradinern und Ottonen lebten, auf deren Namen man sich bei der Wahl der Nummer später aber bezog. Das heißt, dass ich hier (trotz jeglicher Einwände) sogar Karl den Großen als „römisch-deutschen“ König zähle, da man ihn als Karl I. des Frankenreichs später auch als ersten König Karl des deutschen Reichs verstand.

[@caccioman]

Bin ich hier falsch, oder sei ihr hier falsch? Gehts hier um VeRA?

[@davidpineda8135]

Germany due to conflicting regimes ( Stasi / Gestapo) in the past, the Laender's enacted laws that restricted police surveillance going behind the autocratic trends that started after Sept 11th, 2001. So Germany is behind 23 years the US ( Echelon ) and Israel's secret data & surveillance program (Pegasus). With mote people voting to keft parties is not improbable to have same type of vigilance as used by Soviets in Russia ( NKVD, Cheka / KGB ) to support friends of Putin nowadays.

[@idraote]

16 different police forces are wrong in the first place.

[@xaverlustig3581]

why?

[@Nils.Minimalist]

Remember the 1930s, nothing good has ever come out of Austria and Bavaria ☝️

[@weppwebb2885]

There is a lot of good public transit coming from Austria. I can't really find anything for Bavaria though.

[@autokorrektor8166]

Germany needs to bolster it's states security. It should consider enlisting the help of average citizen volunteers who could assist in identifying problem areas.

[@caccioman]

Yeah, we could even call them „Inoffizielle Mitarbeiter“… sounds like a marvelous idea 😊

[@autokorrektor8166]

@@caccioman I like your idea. I would abbreviate the name to IM.

[@tillneumann406]

They could be supported by persons who are appointed locally. Let's call them "Blockwart".

[@autokorrektor8166]

@@tillneumann406 I guess they could start out as Blockleiter while being investigated for trustworthiness........You Germans are so INTELLigent 😀😀😀

[@RealMash]

Do not use ANY American Software. NEVER! Or Chinese. Or Russian!

[@stephenlee5929]

You do realise this is You Tube? Who owns this platform? I could be wrong.

[@tillneumann406]

Which ultimately means: Never touch a computer or mobile phone.

[@holger_p]

It's like they search for max miller, they have to browse into your data, verify your name is not max miller, that's how you get involved. Absolutly unavoidable. Also no kind of dangerous. Absolute exaggeration to see a problem. A confirmation of your innocense.

[@RoonMian]

Sir, please remove the boot from your mouth.

[@holger_p]

@@RoonMian i'm not familiar with this idiom. What do you want me to do ?

[@RoonMian]

@@holger_p Hör auf Stiefel zu lecken, Junge.