Video Games and Moral Choices

[@Evanpianomaster]

This 6-year-old video is still a really good video

[@Nutt_lemmings]

Is he dead

[@redfedalpha24]

They moved to another channel, Extra Credits

[@geobeach9129]

*8-year-old

[@fancyghost7358]

@@geobeach9129 *9 year old

[@qinyuping2823]

@@fancyghost7358 *10 years old

[@GladstnJones]

In Dragon's Dogma I had 90,000 gold, almost enough for a new armor. I was doing some quests to get more gold and I was given a quest to kick a family out of their home because the landlord wants them gone, after talking to the poor family and dead set on getting my new armor my heart was broken by a child that said " I though you were supposed to help people." I later went to the guy that gave me the quest to see if there was another way to complete it, and he said that I could pay for the land but it would cost 64,000 gold. I gave him the gold, and after staring at the hole in my coin purse, my companion told me that I made a very heroic decision. I'm still proud of that choice, I didn't get anything out of it except the satisfaction of being a real Hero, not just a psycho murdering goblins and trolls. Thanks Dragon's Dogma, and good job Capcom.

[@steveneiman2158]

I also wish it was more common to create hidden third options. I was kind of annoyed in Skyrim because there is this one beggar in Windhelm that you can give 1 septim like anyone else, but even though she complains of the cold, I could never give her a set of clothes enchanted with a total of 100% frost resistance. It would have made me so happy to have actually done something that meaningfully made this character's life better, when you don't even see any effect on them for giving them that gold piece and doing so is trivially cheap.

[@kuroshinko427]

+Steve Neiman Persona 4 did the hidden third option to great effect.

[@ivanl.1881]

A decade later, and the point still stands. So well done.

[@Parker8752]

And that's why the best moral choices in games were, as far as I can tell, in the Witcher games.

[@jakeheimburger1452]

One of the best talks about morality in game design I've heard. I think the most important thing to recognize is that, in the game world, the player naturally looks for what is going to benefit him the most, and a game that treats moral choices as simple tests where choosing good has more obvious benefit really manipulates the player into thinking that they're a natural do-gooder instead of recognizing that the player is both selfish and has moral values. I also think the suggestions for how to present moral ambiguity in games were awesome.

[@suzystar3]

Wow. What a deep take into this concept. These are all really interesting ideas that were great to see you look into and ponder over. I'm trying to create a very simple factions game and I hope I can "do some good."

[@KvaGram]

4:00 If my memory serves me right, there was one more alternative to that scenario: You could eat the child (requires the cannibal perk)

[@akisa7865]

Basically me fucking around in fallout 4

[@anonimo2932]

Tropico is a good example of faction You are El presidente and you can decide which faction follow to govern better: decide to buid a clinic for comunist or a pub for capitalist, to forbid alcohol for religions or legalize gay marriage for intellectuals (or just steal money for yourself XD). and all faction can be extremes but you can ignore them In that case they will try to sabotate you, join to rebels or make a coup d'etat but you can always resolve them with the iron fist killing faction leader, built an army against rebels, fight against traitors general, ecc.. you can make all decision, good or evil, because I'm El Presidente

[@voldlifilm]

This reminds me of a moment in the first Fable game when I was doing my evil playthrough. At one point in the game, your sister gives a speech about "one day having to choose good or evil". Given that I at that point had massacred a few hundred people, had glowing eyes and horns made for a bizarre conversation. Then again, your sister in the game is blind. Now that's an awkward conversation waiting to happen.

[@TrevreWxAZ]

Its like obsidian watched this video, and then made fall out newvegas

[@siyacer]

Lol

[@Nr4747]

Interestingly enough, the moral meter in Mass Effect 2 never made me do "good" or "evil" when I didn't feel like it. I was quite a bit more on the Renegade side, but my Paragon meter was quite filled up aswell. I played Shepard as a tough realistic leader, who was willing to make sacrifices, but would always do almost everything for his crew or to prevent needless slaughter.

[@jerrywhat4799]

I cant watch extra history without you...

[@RealLifeW0rld]

Extra History without him isn't Extra History in my mind. I wish he comes back

[@DFFfanalltheway]

These are some REALLY good ideas for moral choices. If there's any games that utilize these kinds of things in the future, I'll be sure to get them. Morality is one of my favorite aspects of game design, and it's really the decisions that make me think about what's right or wrong without being actually certain that I did the right thing afterwards that really make me adore this trope.

[@Tastytoast225]

Paper's please is a good example of this

[@KefkeWren]

Wow. This was really compelling and informative. As someone looking for success in the games industry, I have to say that these little bite-sized lectures are an incredible source of inspiration and wisdom for me.

[@deadknight1402]

6:23 - So the D&D alignment system? 6:34 - So the D&D alignment system?

[@The_Rising_Dragon]

So the D&D allignment system.

[@iMakeTheSpackle]

A game that offers 100% total freedom has been my dream since I started playing video games. That sad part is I will never see a game like that in my life time.

[@robertli3600]

I thought this was extra credit for a second

[@apexhunter935]

It is but consider it more of a prototype too that and keep in mind most of the early videos on extra were already uploaded around the same time as these early videos on a separate website

[@PaintYourFriends]

In Star Wars KOTOR you often were asked to give money as the good choice and even though you occaisionally got it back you often were left down a few hundred credits but left with that feeling that you did the right thing and improved another character's circumstance at the cost of your own sacrifice. Thought this game does suffer from the metering of good and bad decisions as you have stated in this video. I have stumbled upon your content today and have been addictedly watching. Great work!

[@VladNorris]

Funny thing? Many ideas here are present on the Shin Megami Tensei series. Basically, a rather obscure JRPG series(Persona doesn't count) have done this right from the get go. Yet gamers give credit to Fallout...

[@Medicesca]

It's a shame that SMT doesn't get the credit it deserves.

[@godfire173]

I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH FROM THIS SERIES!

[@Thejigholeman]

I think darksouls does a good job with the whole morality thing. look at the chaos servant covenant, you gather humanity to give to the fair lady (quelaag's sister) (quelaag being the spider lady you killed) to help her regain her strength after she drank blight pus to help some residents of blight town, this left her blind, mute, and immobile. it would seem obvious that you would help such i kind person until you consider how you get humanity, you have to kill rats, humans, and hollows to get humanity, then when you think about it, you come to realize that you are killing many people and creatures just to ease the suffering of one. now you think, oh, well that's not right, i can't do that, but then you find out that quelaag (the spider lady you killed who is the fair lady's sister) was actually killing those who came into her domain so she could give the humanity to her sister, so the choice is, do you leave her to suffer after killing her sister who was just trying to nurse her back to health (or something close to it), or do you invade the worlds of other people kill them, take their humanity, and use the humanity to help the poor girl you condemned to suffer. there no real correct "good answer" to this situation, and that is what makes it such an interesting choice.

[@Janchimera8]

Yeah definitely a good example of morality in games. The bonus is that's it's subtle and takes observation and attention to figure out and learn the truth. When at first entering the boss's arena we see her as nothing more than a horrific beast. Personally I feel that because of the Fair Lady's sacrifice and the type of person this takes she herself would not approve of the actions(unless it was limited to hollows and rats perhaps). On the other hand perhaps she is worth it because she is one of the last remains of people worth saving in the Dark Souls universe.(kind of like in the Last of Us)

[@Vaiviablo]

Simplistic, yet intelligent, paradoxaly complex, interesting and complete. Great Job!

[@cyanpenguin-games7796]

how many people are who like this comment are still watching old dan episodes to this day

[@FriezaTheMenace]

Your voice has changed so much I’m sad you left extra history

[@ChasoGod]

In Dungeons and Dragons they have morality with 2 axis. a Good/Evil axis and a Law/Chaos axis. You could be a Lawful Evil character making you a tyrant who rules with an iron fist, or you could be a Chaotic Good scoundrel who steals from the rich arrogant nobles and gives to the poor

[@Robert399]

The Lawful/Chaotic axis offers genuine moral choice but the Good/Evil axis doesn't. A better way of doing it would be picking the principles you value and the outcomes you want to see then a Lawful/Chaotic rating. Then you get interesting choices and unique character development from how much you're willing to compromise on your principles in order to achieve the practical outcomes they exist to promote (e.g. executing murderers, torturing people for life-saving information...)

[@Robert399]

Sean Murphy haha that's fine I do that constantly. Anyway to the comment: you can sometimes do that and it's often what video games resort to but that's really the least interesting way to deal with morality and, more importantly to me, it defines certain conceptions of morality as simply right or wrong. The only games that have made me think are the ones where the choices can't be broken down in this binary sense because every option has things that are right and wrong about it and also a range of how well the promised outcomes could actually turn out (e.g. Witcher 2).

[@seanmurphy3430]

That's true. What I said doesn't work for every game, but it can work for some. Hell, I've seen it work in This War of Mine, a game about maintaining your humanity in the midst of a war zone. Given, it doesn't use a meter, but your characters can be made content or depressed by doing the right or wrong thing, respectively. What makes it work, though, is that both morally right and morally wrong decisions have both positive and negative consequences, benefits and drawbacks, risks and rewards. And it emphasizes that sometimes there are definitively right and wrong actions, and that the difficulty is doing the right despite personal desire or even necessity (I can never spell that word right on the first go).

[@Robert399]

Sean Murphy true I suppose that's a good example although I'd say that works because you're not actually the characters so it's about balancing the good of your characters against the good of other people.

[@kevgmei]

Dreamer Dawn Chaotic good seems more my style. I'm chaotic good in Skyrim, usually.

[@MasticinaAkicta]

Might having to take over an Larp/D&D Lite session at the end of the year I am thinking about that yes. Offer 5 paths they can take..if they take one I still take in account what would happen on the 4 other story paths.

[@mxsdrago]

Omg, for a minute I thought I was watching Extra Credits

[@gfrewqpoiu]

+Mike Hofilena this is probably the very first Extra Credits Episode they just moved channels from here to EC

[@skyletoft]

+gfrewqpoiu This isn't the first Extra Credits episode, it's the eighth, read the description

[@mill2712]

Meh... close enough.

[@Wfftam]

I agree totally with everything you said about making the choice more complex and involving. But at the same time, I do so very love the appearance changes that come with evil characters. Massive sprouting horns, glowing red eyes, dead pale skin, freaking yes.

[@MadamFoogie]

I thought Silent Hill 2's use of an invisible meter was excellent.

[@madisons7904]

Easy system already exists for the colorwheel morality, Dnd 3.5. Good-Evil Chaos-Law Maybe not the best but if you want the easy version, this is already out there, and in games based on DnD.

[@BlackwolfAnthony]

I feel like when they made New Vegas they watched this video specifically..

[@eneekmot]

Also Tyranny.

[@vubitheman955]

One example of a good moral choice. There is a side mission in the original Mass Effect where you find a derelict space ship, kept running by its automated systems, after exploring it you happen upon a clinicaly dead man kept alive by life support, I loved that bit, it was a great moment, one of personal belief and self reflection... what do you do? The best part was neither choice gave Renegade or Paragon points, and that was a master stroke.

[@cmaceiraTV]

Fallout new vegas uses the faction system it gives you a more general ending

[@MaeelJ]

I know this video is 10 years old, but I recently played Assassin's Creed Odyssey and they did such a good job with making choices unclear and impactful, it was probably my favorite thing about the game

[@omershaik6374]

deus ex human revolution has some great moments of choice. saving malik or running away, the gas chamber problem in the dlc, they are great with choice in a way that i wish more games will be.

[@omershaik6374]

Kazuya Mishima i feel ya

[@EduarGmez15]

That's why I said that it not only depends on how your society works, but also depends in how you were raised (Also forgot to add the third factor: Your Experiences). Those 2 factors can be subdivided into a thousand other factors but I oversimplify it for better understanding. The definition you just gave would be one of the most accurate definitions of what good is I have heard in a while.

[@Friendlyneighborhoodguy]

Dan pls go back to Extra Credits

[@CliffyGiffy]

I've been watching Extra Credits and Daniel Floyd videos for a while, and I think the creators of the shows should totally just take all the awesomeness they've come up with and write the perfect game. That's all.

[@jonathanstaal3921]

I would argue that the Mass Effect series heavily subverts this issue. Are you really telling me that choosing between committing genocide and endangering the entire galaxy was a black and white moral option?

[@bbahaakbu]

I agree, for example, I really stopped and think when I was dealing with the ranchni. Or with that krogan genophage cure. Hell, I didn't pay much attention to my paragon after my speech skill was full. I did what I would do.

[@Tim231090]

Bastion gave the best morale choice I had encountered in years of playing games. I'm serious pick it up, play it, it's so worth it.

[@owenofhb8319]

Who is watching this in 2020?

[@Hagon94]

i recently played telltale games' "the wolf among us" and i must say i was very impressed with the choises presented in that game. the morals of many of those choises can be debated. great game.

[@apollothefirst]

You Ok Dan? You are not on Extra Credits or this.....

[@DanielFloyd]

You can find me on the channels New Frame Plus and PlayFrame!

[@HampsterMD]

A pretty good example from something besides games is in the sort of DnD moral system. I know what half of you are thinking but I'm still going to bring up the nerdiest board game to talk about video games. In most DnD style games, there's two systems of two morals: Good and Evil & Chaotic and Lawful. This system may seem just as bad as some video game systems, but the game allows you to be Neutral on either spectrum as well. On top of this, you can be a bunch of different kinds of people with just one part being different or, hell even if they are the same. A character can be Chaotic Good and openly break laws in order to help those that need it or just be a man of faith who just enjoys smashing pots. Compare that with someone who's Lawful Evil, who will obey the laws of the land and try to keep the peace but work within the system to further his our selfish goals or just someone who follows the laws but really hates it when children laugh, and you can see where just toggling between three switches can add a LOT of character development by not allowing a simple halo or horns effect on the character, but showcasing the fact that even a Lawful Good person could be very misguided and may even fall to Chaotic Evil over the course of a story. By not allowing just a slider to be what you are, it makes the people who use it consider WHY the character is of that alignment, i.e. a Chaotic Neutral character who is an assassin, a very Chaotic and Evil job, but does it to avenge the death of many people at the hands of who he targets, a very Good thing to do. Personally, I like the DnD system the most out of most moral choices in gaming on today's market because, like you mentioned, it doesn't allow for black and whites to be drawn and makes you go on a color wheel of morality that doesn't truly have a right answer... which I love soooo much.

[@JoelJoel321]

Hitler OR Mother Teresa? ... So evil, or evil?

[@silver4831]

At the end of the day people where left to die in rooms while someone prayed for them.

[@JoelJoel321]

Agreed.

[@TangFiend1]

Alexae B was she really evil? or just a simple woman and bad manager with the most altruistic intentions?

[@JoelJoel321]

If she was altruistic she might have tried empowering women rather than giving them places to die.

[@JoelJoel321]

Perfect Cell Perfect Cell on Mother Teresa: "She's not as bad as Hitler".

[@MeltedFilms]

I think Fable 3 did a very exceptional job. I really found myself thinking for days on end after I made a choice since the decisions I make in the game (especially as a king). directly correlates with how the NPCs interacted with me.

[@tsartomato]

fallout 2 had much more content with much less probability to see it because it all was hidden behind undocumented puzzles

[@doomblackdragon]

Fallout 2 seems to be an lost art. How to make high quality game and with a wide variety of chose. That game had me non stop thinking of my actions.

[@NineOuh]

While infamous 2 doesn't really go more into the grey area of things in the wide scope of things, in the ending choices are very much based on the kind of person you are; will you save the few people you know you can save or will you use a method which you haven't tried and are not sure will work? that is a good step forward

[@TheNewMaxico]

Meanwhile I always try to play as the bad guy in these games

[@mxsdrago]

Is it good to do that? Because I do it too.

[@TheNewMaxico]

Mike Hofilena I'm not too sure

[@hunter4914]

+TheNewMaxico it feels cooler. besides most people play as good ones but its no fun playing the "hero".

[@banSmasher]

Same here, and i think its because there was no paragon/renegade outcomes, but it still did hav an impact on the game (+the whole series)

[@GottaLoveShuckle]

Erm... Mass Effect doesn't have good or evil. Renegade isnt evil! The way I see it is in Mass Effect Paragon is more of an idealistic/compassionate view where as Renegade is more of a realistic/calculating view. Take the decision on whether or not to cure the Genophage. From a idealistic/compassionate view (Paragon) curing the Genophage is easily the right thing to do however if you are more calculating and realistic (Renegade) you could easily see sabotaging the cure as the right thing to do. The reapers threaten every species in the galaxy and if sabotaging the cure could get you more support in stopping the reapers then you could see the Krogan as a calculated sacrifice for the greater good. Also the Salarians concerns about the Krogan aren't baseless... Curing the Genophage could lead to the Krogan population returning to the size that threatened the whole galaxy and with all species weakened by the reapers there would be little stopping the violet Krogan from getting their revenge aganst the Turians and Salarians. By curing the Genophage you would be putting the rest of the galaxy at risk of another Krogan rebellion of which they would have no chance of surviving after losing so much to the reapers. So basically to sum it up... sure curing the Genophage is the "right" thing to do from a compassionate or idealistic viewpoint however when you look at the bigger picture and all the bad that could come from curing it, does it still remain the "right" thing to do? The difference between Renegade and Paragon in Mass Effect is their view of the world, no matter which you pick to follow you are still a hero that saved the galaxy. On a side note however I will say I don't like how Mass Effect almost punishes you for not being pure Renegade or pure Paragon. No one is completely Renegade or Paragon and by making you benefit from being pure Renegade or Paragon it gives you incentive towards always picking the Renegade options or Paragon options often making you not think about what option you would pick yourself or what option the character your roleplaying as would pick. This is my only real problem with Mass Effects morality choices tbh.

[@36inc]

oly one problem with that- the context of the Quarian and Salarians is they both played god and then hit the panic button- a decidedly immoral even ruthless action. The genophage is much like putting down dogs cause of dog fighting. it divorces itself from reason choosing instead to shift the blame to the used Krogan. another funny side of this is you can see the alternative path and both the Geth and krogan can be free if you choose to go with them. The quarians headlonged into battle and the geth defend themselves, no romantic sense of home or history justifies ignoring the agency of things you havent done much justice too, and we see in the paragon path that they could have been reasoned with and it was actually the quarians fualt. While I agree that renegade doesnt stand for - evil it is far less moral than the paragon who shows patience and rarely loses because of it. And Id also say that it gives you stronger allies in the Krogan and Geth who are far better, ready to fight that war than the salarians and Quarian. the lovely thing about morality is that risks like that are often appreciated like no other. Rarely in history do you see a risk of trust on that level end in the fears coming true. The keys to that is dialog and patience which shepard shows- as these things are offered to shep during the game before the final risk is offered. And the fact of the matter is that those moral questions specifically never arise had the Salarian or the Quarian fully respected the ethics of their sciences. and further failed by panicking creating and maintaining the fights between them while their creations simply defend themselves.

[@vubitheman955]

To me Mass effect choices were(even tho its my fav game series) well "Doormat" or "Hatefull Idiot" options. Many made no sense

[@SAMagic]

On the subject, the two most memorable, albeit minor, choices in Mass Effect 2 that spring to mind for me were: 1. The engineer during Archangel's mission - he seems like an innocent guy just working on a hover vehicle even if it belongs to a crime lord, but there's a renegade choice to (harshly) kill him and sabotage the vehicle. I was originally under the impression that this affected the boss fight with the vehicle (and where Archangel gets hurt) but I later heard this wasn't the case. Still, it was a tough call at the time. 2. The hi-jacked Javelin missile - it's directed at a colony and you have to choose whether to save some of the general population (but the spaceport staff and infrastructure get destroyed) or the space port (but colonists in their thousands die). Both didn't have clear answers and made me think a while for a moment.

[@Merchantic]

The color wheel idea is the best idea i have heard in a long time...

[@pokeshorts3239]

And then undertale came out

[@MasticinaAkicta]

Soon I will probably take over a tabletop RPG. One thing I am going to add.. factions. But I keep it as a hidden score. I just keep track of how different groups like or dislike the players. With a few side effects of course. That and might also have to think about events. As in, bandits threaten a small village. If the heroes end up there much to late guess what it is ransacked. Allot of work to keep track but worth it.

[@gib666]

Compare this to the mess Extra Credits has become.....

[@CFood0]

No new video for 2 years? Man, I want to see another one of these.

[@doomblackdragon]

Think games focus to much on voice acting. Cutscenes and graphics is the major problem of choice. Games are trying to much to be movies and not games. Also I do believe EQ was not the first game to use factions. I remember factions in Elderscrolls Arena, Daggerfall and also in Fallout 2. Which did coming out before EQ. Then again you might have just said EQ because it is a well known game. Fallout 3 the pit. The choice of moral was not really there. I done both sides only to find out a shocking twist. The slaves where evil and the slavers where good. Kinda kills the will to free the slaves if you know they are evil and the slavers are trying to find the cure just as much as the slaves are. This was really a bad example. Then again I bet you where hoping people did not play both sides. All and all I found older games did a great job with choice and moral choice with out having massive cost. Think we should start looking back at history and see why games like FO2 and BG2 where so great and why FO3 failed to even come close to FO2 greatness.

[@Simnic93]

As he began talking about the cost of doing good I imediatly thougt of The Banner Saga, with one group you are an army with a huge amount of resources and manpower at your disposal. You can generally spread your wealth without thought to it the first couple of hours in the game, then there are the refugees, I turned from the giver of gifts to looking out solely for my own. I began stealing, turning away people in need of help because they would be a burden and every time I did it got a little easier to do the next time. But the beauty was that the game never really told me that it was wrong.

[@DefaultHandle420]

I'm sorry but Fallout 3 had terrible writing (the Pitt being an exception) The majority of the well written content in Fallout 3 was written by the writers of Fallout 1,2... In fact Bethesda ruined large chunks of interesting pre established lore...

[@DefaultHandle420]

***** What is the problem with letting a franchise that has had it's time end? Why does every franchise need to be "revived" what about making a new IP? Also Bethesda ripped off the main plot of the first games.

[@upchuck42]

One thing I really loved about Star Wars the Old Republic (the MMO) was being an inherently evil Sith character but being a complete good guy. There was just something so satisfying of actually helping some dude and keeping my word instead of choking them to death.

[@xertris]

Mount and Blade warband does the faction system. Arma 2 does too in its campaign,but hardly anyone has played it.

[@idegarrison]

I'm not sure if everybody can keep up with this but I'm glad I can

[@the13nthpartyboy]

the best moral choice i've run into in a game was in mass effect 3, where you have to decide between legion or tali. I loved both characters and didn't want to lose either and both their stories made since. I had to pause the game and spend quite a while trying to figure this problem out. That is one of the reasons i loved mass effect 3 so much

[@xith1349]

Bioshock Infinite, while obviously not released when this video was posted, did a great and interesting job of giving you some ambiguous moral choices that actually had no impact whatsoever on the results of the game, although you would have thought they would. They also do a really good job of explaining it at the end too.

[@QwertyCaesar]

You've *got* to check out the new study released by Amanda Lange about players and moral choice. Even if you don't do a video on it, I'm absolutely certain all of you at EC will find it very insightful.

[@Lamia_Loveless]

I remember a game called Der Langriser, there were 4 paths (the "world peace through war" empire, the good revolutionaries, the indepenent protagonist trying to conquer the world by himself to make it peaceful and the chaos follower. They all made sense in their discourses (exept chaos that wanted to kill everyone) and any path made you pay by killing your older friends, people with families or abandoning the girl atached to the protagonist to achive your goal. I love games that make you think

[@alternativebassist]

same here...although I still find it hard to balance out all the sides for a truly free Vegas...there is the third option; take it all for yourself :D

[@0lionheart]

Glad you guys mentioned The Pitt. I loved that expansion, it bucked Fallout 3's trend of "Righteous or Evil" in favour of something more thought provoking!

[@levprotter1231]

Put the karma system and then drop it. I think that might make the choices more impact-full later on.

[@REgamesplayer]

You are not forced to take harsh action in order to win war. You KNOW that war will win itself out no matter of outcome. You are left with freedom to choose your moral options and you are not being forced down to a certain path due to odds you are facing. Lack of external pressure is one more thing that our gamming industry is completely lacking off.

[@mugshot96]

especially with the dialogue changing depending on whether you choose to kill or not kill the target

[@Ramrothc]

If they suffered a experience that changed their outlook at life, then their alignment has changed to the respective alignment. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[@Neuk__]

I LOVE this channel.

[@gdoggcasey]

I love this episode. I know this video is kinda old but I would have like to hear your thoughts on the "newish" Walking Dead game by TellTale. Shamefully, I haven't even beat it yet, but I have already been forced to make tough decisions like, who should I give the last bit of food to, or who should I save from certain death. I find myself thinking long and hard about the food choices, but the game forces you to make quick decisions on who you should save. I feel like they did a great job.

[@71Yth1]

These videos are so good!

[@ReuelRamos]

Look for the zero escape series. It is a masterpiece for moral decisions IMHO.

[@TrenchantSword]

The Color wheel idea with the GOTM vs. ROTF and Discipline and Freedom could be great for a game idea i had, where the apocalypse has happened, and you and your group of survivors must rebuild a community, with you as their leader. The color wheel type statistical graphic would work really well for the individual legislature that you create to run the town.

[@rcookie5128]

I know this episode is 6 years old, but "Life is strange" did a great job on the choices.. Not only are they hard to decide, but they have real consequences and lead to totally different endings..

[@AirborneSpitfire]

When was Tell tale games walking dead released? I liked Fable 2's moral system, still pretty shallow in the choices but it worked with a dual axis and doubled the number of character appearances you could get. But Fable 3 returned with one axis of good or bad.

[@whatever3554]

*claps* That was an amazing speech. I wish the industry is watching this as well... Great thinking.

[@MRMcLobster]

After I finished Mass Effect 3, (all 3) for the first time, I came to realize exactly what he is saying. As counter intuitive as it is, the moral choice system in ME adds nothing. I would absolutely love to go through the entire Mass Effect series again, with one change: Remove all morality meters, and unlock all dialoug options. With some locked behind paragon/renegade walls, the moral game boiled down to the order of conversations (save high level ones for the end), rather than actual choices

[@cookieofdestruction]

I felt that Fable 3 did the part about it being hard to be good very well, if you did not know the ending and played the housing till you could flat out win.

[@ToastyMozart]

They have. They covered it in one of the "Games you might not have tried" episodes.

[@ToastyMozart]

I LOVED the morality system in Iji (It's a freeware Indie game, go look it up). My favorite part of it was it's subtlety. It never had moral choice situations, karma meters, etc. Your choices varied dialogue, enemy behaviors, textlogs, and so on and so forth. Iji would talk to the bosses, and request they leave, depending on your actions, they would try to justify their actions, refuse, or call you out for decrying violence immediately after slaughtering a good 150+ of their friends.

[@KyleTaylorDesigns]

Another example of a game that made good of these choices (even if it was only a small amount), was GT4: Episodes from Liberty City and GT5. Both games at times will offer a diverging path in story with separate outcomes, where you won't realize the the full extent of your actions until the end of the game. Plus an EverQuest styled morality meter with some NPCs such as as heist member or biker gang member, or just the character's friends. NPCs that offer more, as the player interacts with them.

[@gianlucaventura3347]

Speaking of Fallout, New Vegas did most of the concepts in the video very well, they even fleshed out the factions that would normally be in the "evil" department. Though they still kept the karma metre

[@SilentTree12]

Spec Ops: The Line did this excellently in the "two hanging men" scene.

[@JoeMazzolaTheFirstPersonCook]

(Cont) and usually your quest-giver is made to be results-driven. So while characters may react to your actions as good or bad and effect the prices you can get from shops and the like, it does not wildly diverge the story. One case where it does is the Skyrim Civil War, where you pick the Empire, a foreign power enforcing unpopular laws and outlawing local religious practice who are the last bastion against the Nazi elves or the Stormcloaks, who want to be free and fight the (buggery cont)

[@firstname5433]

Ayyyyyy new profile picture

[@anonymousdratini]

In the Sims Medieval you can choose a quest that sacrifices culture or knowledge for the gain of kingdom security or a quest that will raise your kingdom's knowledge but lowers the well-being of your people. So it kind of plays with your morality wheel!

[@Binyamin.Tsadik]

The interesting part about your color wheel is that the 4 poles you chose mirror the kabalistic model for morality from 4k years ago. The needs of the many vs few mirrors the morality choices for instant good or sacrifice the now for eternal good (netzach vs Hod) and the freedom vs discipline mirrors the Justice and self control vs the Kindness (Chessed vs Gevurah).

[@ANMAnation]

I actually think that Factions are the perfect solution to this. I would love to play more games with the system you just described. Either that or the color wheel. Developers should actually be taking note here!

[@alienspacebat5218]

1:33 I just HAD to screenshot.

[@NicoPanasiuk]

Humble beginnings lead to the greatest of of achievements

[@89taklung]

Really great in this respect is "The walking dead" the point&click game. It's all about moral dilemmas like who to rescue, whether to steal or kill or trust someone. But the plot is rather given, so your choice has little effect on what will happen (you don't kill him, another one will do it etc) but is makes a difference in how others see you, and orcourse for yourself it makes a huge difference whether it was you who killed someone or not. It's really great ^^

[@3dchib1]

using the chart in my D&D game. thanks guys!

[@Disthron]

I think one of my biggest problems with "ambiguous" mortal choice systems is when they give me the choices, and I immediately think of another option that would have been both possible given the situation and have resolved the situation in a much better way. My immediate thought being "I wouldn't have to sacrifice one of them if they just let me [fill in the blank]" This happened quite a bit in ME1 and 2.

[@makouoa]

I think Walking Dead is pretty much proposing ambiguous choices. And it's very well done !