Villain Therapy: Gollum, Smeagol, and Dissociative Identity Disorder

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Visit www.EstablishedTitles.com/CT10 and use discount code CT10 for an additional 10% off on all purchases!

[@jennipherem3695]

Encourage people to do their research on what Established Titles actually offer and look up reviews. I've seen reason to believe they're not exactly what they make out to be.

[@the_glitter_is]

Have y'all considered reviewing LotR with regards to Tolkien & an allegory for jews, nazis & antisemitism?

[@Tustin2121]

You guys have two links you referenced to other videos, but no actual links on the video to go watch them. The one at 14:57 doesn’t even have the full title, so I can’t search it...

[@sodapop_girl]

@@Tustin2121 kzbin.info/www/bejne/h36QiWxshr6IfJY and kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGLPaKNsitqVgdk

[@canuckkat]

@@sodapop_girl Thank you!

[@happymemories_videography]

"If the Baggins loses, we eats it whole." You guys' impression of Smeagol/Gollum is amazing. It is...Precious!

[@joreyn7656]

Their impression of this quote made my day.

[@onlyicanbullymyself]

aha, precious. I get it

[@primmoore6232]

After hearing that quote is stereo, I think I might need therapy! 🤪Thanks, guys! 😄

[@christianmarshal6117]

You see right there even the most honest of betters have an easy out. (Gollum approaches and Baggins can raise the sword.) Gollum: It agreed if it loses we can eats it. Baggins: I agreed if I lose you eat me WHOLE. You aren’t opening your mouth wide enough to swallow me whole. I never agreed to let you eat me one bite at a time!

[@noraeld5020]

Absolutely

[@dyannatodd2270]

Cool fact about Gollum: the CGI is so detailed, you can (mostly) read his lips! This is because one of the animators actually consulted his sister, who was deaf, on the animation so it would be more accessible for her and others like her. My dad is deaf and lipreads, and when he first saw LOTR he was floored that he could tell what Gollum was saying without subtitles.

[@bodyfarmbrat]

that's awesome

[@RosheenQuynh]

That is cool!

[@meme-bu8qu]

That's amazing.

[@EtamirTheDemiDeer]

This makes me so happy

[@delveaking1188]

😲💜💜 very interesting!

[@eunjijung4657]

John is like disturbingly good at being Gollum. What a performance!

[@Itihlwen]

he's creepy good!

[@littlebrother82]

The voice is perfect to my ears, if I'm only listening I can't tell the difference

[@gpeddino]

The way he said “no, no” at 8:34 was just like the original.

[@TheFranchiseCA]

I believe he's mentioned it in another CT video, but one of the big events in his life was winning a talent show at a college of 30,000 students by doing an abbreviated one-man LotR. ...and then he brings it up again here. Didn't get him a girlfriend, but the comedy troupe invited him to join.

[@USSAnimeNCC-]

I was like holy shit 🤣

[@WhimsicalBunn]

as someone with DID, thank you. The line 'people who have DID have it because they've been through Hell, they deserve compassion not judgement' fucking broke me and I am actually sobbing. I love that. I've felt like a monster because of something my brain did to help me cope with my trauma. thank you

[@oooh19]

People don’t always understand or know how to deal with that though but yea people are just very judgmental!

[@thesardonicpig3835]

Thank you so much for sharing - I hope you are doing alright :)

[@Vi_Vi_1]

I have a family member with DID and she's one of the kindest people I've ever met--I hate the negative associations most people have with DID because there's nothing bad or wrong about you, and you absolutely do deserve compassion and love after suffering horrible traumas that caused this. You are great and loved ❤

[@Rat_Queen86]

Same. I was diagnosed with DID and CPTSD and I felt very, very scared when I first saw this video. But Johnathan is right- you have been through hell. And you deserve to heal. I hope you are well

[@Rat_Queen86]

@@Vi_Vi_1I hope she is doing well- it can be truly very scary to have DID and the associated illnesses

[@harvestmoon_autumnsky]

This is why I love Smeagol so much. I feel like he's the crux of so many points in the story. And really, Tolkien tells us, that for evil to be conquered, we need to proceed with compassion. Bilbo stayed his hand when he had a chance to strike, Frodo choose to befriend Smeagol, and since he still was alive to play a role, Smeagol is ultimately the one who destroys the ring. Frodo himself would not have done it. To kill Gollum would have been to become him. So many things to unpack, but I have always tried to live my life with that idea, to lead with compassion, literally because of Smeagol.

[@seeexy]

aww. rly? such a nice comment. love it

[@dawnburris6412]

Wonderful insight! I’ve always treated people the way I want to be treated. I taught my boys when they were growing up, that you never know someone’s story. You don’t know their struggles. You may be the only kind face they see that day, so be that smile for them. ❤ It may not be much, but it’s something.

[@DanielSelk]

The one visual difference between Gollum and Smeagol are his pupils. They're small when G and big when S.

[@aleece4]

“The ring looks into his heart and says, ‘Oh, there’s darkness here I can work with.’” What a perfect way of explaining the power of the ring. Tolkien‘s genius was that EVERYONE who encountered the ring felt temptation bc everyone has darkness in their heart to some extent. It’s a perfect metaphor for sin and the fallen human nature.

[@tessat338]

This is why neither Gandalf nor Galadriel are willing to touch the thing with a ten-foot pole, though both are clearly tempted. They both possess far too much power to put at the ring's disposal and thankfully, both have enough self-awareness to know that they would never be able to master the ring, but would only risk being mastered by it.

[@Rougeification]

See, this is what I love - even Sam, someone who's so pure of heart, is still tempted. Sam and Aragorn - they're not without darkness. But they have that... discipline (I guess is the best word for it?) to turn away from the lure of the ring. I like the idea that we all have light and darkness (if you want to call it that) within us, but we *always* have the ability to choose, and that's what defines us.

[@joanmilton9986]

Weakness more than darkness. I don't think either Gandalf, or Galadriel had darkness, but what they did have was an innate ability as leaders that could be exploited. They like being in charge, but know enough about themselves to resist the temptation.

[@MasticinaAkicta]

Galadriel had a history of pride! The reason she wasn't allowed to travel back. And Gandalf had doubt he could do his job. Till the point he turned into Gandalf the White he wouldn't dare to bright he fight to the Witch King or Sauron. Even THOUGH he was a Maiar! But his humbleness and love for little things kept his grounded. His accepting the ring would inevitable lead to him, as much as his job was to destroy it, to use it. Even if little to fight The Witch King or yes Sauron. But to what end? To replace Sauron!!! Because the ring would take him. Galadriel? Oh she could do so much with a ring of that power. Have the power to finally take over Dol Guldur, and spread nature far and wide... but at that she would become like Sauron but different. Fun we talk about Sam, Sam was offered the idea of seeing the whole of Mordor turned into gardens where many people work. But again only possible by becoming a harsh ruler of such. So, he was smart enough not to listen to it. And we all know what the ring did to Frodo. As much as Frodo wanted to see it destroyed, the ring destroyed Frodo! Sam was lucky only to be a very temporal ring-bearer.

[@tabsi2436]

But then why is Frodo not tempted? Do you mean, he is without darkness? And why is he in the end get taken over by the ring? Maybe his potential for darkness is growing, because of the terrible experiences he made.

[@morganprynne]

Tolkien nerd here: it is told in the books that prior to finding the Ring and killing Deagol, Smeagol was already a shady character. There was a whole thing about his family being not very functional and nice. After finding the Ring it only got worse until he got away from his people and transformed into the creature we meet during the LotR.

[@nettaboyar9870]

Thank you for the information!

[@AmarthwenNarmacil]

I think Deagol was also not just his buddy but his cousin (but I might remember that wrong, it's been a while).

[@Shadow1Yaz]

If Sméagol’s family was abusive and shady then it makes even more sense that he has DID.

[@axoNNNessj]

It's been a while since I last read LotR, but I remember not feeling as much hope for the kind side of smeagol in the book as in the movies.

[@freshlybaked82]

@@AmarthwenNarmacil you're correct, Deagol was family

[@sauron7839]

It's also important to realize that it wasn't simply what Gollum did himself that traumatized Smeagol, but possession of the Ring *itself* is an ongoing supernatural horror traumatizing him continuously for five hundred years.

[@kiwi_rainbows]

I believe this could be called Re-traumatization (sp?). Thank you thank you for this insight!!

[@importantn02]

👏👏

[@TSIRKLAND]

Also, as for him switching back and forth in a conversational manner: most people in the real world with D.I.D. have other people to deal with, and they (or their subconscious) chooses how to deal with each person or situation. Gollum / Smeagol lived completely ALONE in a cave - barring the occasional orc who might stumble through - for centuries. He had nobody to talk to. We already know that isolation can cause mental problems all on its own. So a person with nobody to talk to, who happens to have a split personality, might evolve into holding conversations with "themselves" as we see Gollum do. Also, the films are fiction, based on a character written in the 1920/30s, by a man who was a scholar of language, not of psychological disorders, and even if he was, understanding of D.I.D. was not well developed at that time. So the fact that Gollum can be discussed with anything approaching real-world application is pretty amazing in itself, and disparities between reality and fiction are bound to exist. -My amateur 2¢

[@devRat]

We get it Sauron. Your ring is *so powerful.*

[@garethbaus5471]

Spread thin like butter over too much toast times ten.

[@RaindropsBleeding]

I finally understand the Never Come Back scene! As a kid I thought it was just demonstrating his split personality but I didn't understand what that meant. Here with it laid out it all makes sense. Gollum was created to allow Smeagol to believe in his own innocence. But then Gollum started calling Smeagol the murderer. That's why Smeagol tells him to go away and never come back. Gollum betrayed his purpose.

[@challengemeneo]

Please watch this video correcting the misinformation in this video though... A lot of mistakes were said kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4Grl2yebNmmkKs

[@manthasagittarius1]

Interesting. The shadow self, in a way, being banished, which is of course impossible.

[@798jeremy]

@@manthasagittarius1 Well maybe for him it was impossible, because of the Ring obviously...but in real life, it totally is possible actually.

[@ginogatash4030]

​​@@798jeremy well the ring, as everything else in the Lord of the rings is more symbolic than literal, when Gollum obsesses over the ring you're not just meant to take away that the ring makes people bad, it is simply a manifestation of people's capacity for evil and characters have been shown successfully fending off the ring's influence, like Boromir after realising his mistake and redeaming himself by sacrificing his life to save Pippin and Merry, or Galadriel when she refused the ring after Frodo offered it to her willingly, Gollum isn't the cause of Smeagol's evil but rather a symptom of it, Gollum COULD have been saved, but understandably Sam was concerned about helping Frodo through his journey, and saw Gollum as a threat, tho it's good to note that in the book Frodo while empathetic towards Gollum was also diffident of him to a degree, and that Sam had a moment of pity for Gollum in Mount Doom as after he had the chance to wear the ring himself he understands what both Frodo and Smeagol went through, and decides to let him live, which leads to Gollum accidentally destroying the ring. In short, the ring has power, but it doesn't take away all agency from the characters, in the end Smeagol wasn't able to let the one ring go because he wasn't able to truly defeat the evil within him, he had multiple chances but he failed.

[@jackthesmoltangerine]

@@blahblahblah4544 of course, I doubt Smeagol was mentally strong enough to accept Gollum, in fact, he probably didn’t think it could be done

[@tovick1643]

I wanna note, Frodo was compasionate towards Gollum, as he knew he was a ring bearer and Frodo was kinda scared of what had become of him, and in general, Frodo's thought was: If i can help Gollum get back, it means i myself can be safe (as he turned deeper and deeper into the shadow because of the ring). And that was a thing Sam couldnt understand, as he didnt experience the weight of the ring for the same amount of time. Like A gollum or Frodo did.

[@cynthieful]

I'd like to send encouragement to Jonathan. I feel like a lot of the times we expect health care workers to be superhumans who know everything about every possible health condition ever, and to know the right answers and solutions to everything. But the thing is, they are also humans who are trying to do their best at their job. Think about yourself in your career or profession: do you know absolutely everything about every possible thing related to it? I know health care professional need to have high standards, and I also find myself disappointed if my doctor's visit wasn't helpful, but I think having a little bit of grace doesn't hurt. There is no way of knowing everything about everything in this world, no matter how much you study. After all they are here to help us.

[@amholmes3]

@@Kharis- Specializing is still somewhat vague in the psychology world. And there is still so much we don't understand about how the brain works. If you look at the DSM and start to read it, there are so many overlapping symptoms that it can be difficult to determine which treatment is needed.

[@niariella03]

Angela Holmes yeah. A lot goes into the process of diagnosis, prognosis, and developing a treatment plan for someone. I just got my first taste of it today in my abnormal child psych class going over our first case study and there was so much info being thrown at us all at once. Plus the client has to have 5 or more of the symptoms existing at the same time in order to actually diagnose them, which helps rule out what disorders they don’t have or if they even have one at all because a lot of them overlap in symptoms like you mentioned previously. It’s a very meticulous and thought-out process.

[@charminsi]

I agree with this, and also DID is such a misunderstood and unknown disorder that there isn’t that many clinical knowledge about it in the first place anyway. There’s room to learn for both individual healthcare and psychology workers and health knowledge as a whole.

[@suemyles2257]

I so appreciate Jonathan's kindness toward people with DID. I was not diagnosed until age 54. A life of ruin. Any therapist who publicly presents a warm and kind attitude is my pal. Thank you

[@maikenelissen3767]

I'm crying from laughter at "If Bagginses loses, we eats it whole"🤣🤣

[@TheTower1985]

Fair enough

[@JonathanDecker]

Jonathan's note: while the clinical information presented in this episode is accurate, there is more to the story. Since filming I have gained insight from several persons with dissociative identity disorder. In some cases it is not experienced as a core personality with alters to be integrated, but as a system of very real people living harmoniously in one body. In these cases, there is nothing to "heal" as everyone is quite content and functional. Also, while many cases of dissociative identity disorder are correlated with trauma, as stated in the video, others are not. There is more to cover on this subject and we look forward to doing so in future videos. If I misunderstood or misrepresented anyone's personal experience I apologize. UPDATE- it's clear to me that there's a significant gap between clinical academia and lived experience. I leaned too heavily into the former without consulting the latter before making this episode, and even then there's much to learn. Lesson learned. We will be revisiting D.I.D in the near future. Thank you for the feedback. Sincerely. I see you.

[@natsmith303]

[Originally recommended DissociaDID for further resources] EDIT: Okay, apparently they're not a god representative for the DID community. I retract my recommendation and apologize. I wasn't aware, but I am now.

[@alisadavies8943]

Thanks for this clarification. Would you be able to pin this comment so people see it immediately in the comments? 📌

[@JonathanDecker]

@@alisadavies8943 my understanding is that we are obligated to leave a pinned comment about our sponsor today from the official Cinema Therapy account. Our hands thus tied, my hope is that this comment, posted so quickly after the video dropped, will be seen and upvoted on enough that it is always near the top. I will also make this clarification when we do a video on Split, which is super entertaining as a movie but also potentially super harmful for perpetuating incorrect ideas.

[@JonathanDecker]

@@natsmith303 thank you for the recommendation! I will definitely check them out :-)

[@lucas-xf7rc]

Thanks, I have always had an interest in studying these types of disorders. Not to sound insensitive, since some derive from trauma, but I am quite fascinated by this aspect of the human mind.

[@heathermcguirk332]

I must say, Smeagol wasn't Sam's concern, he was focused on Frodo and protecting Frodo. As a mom, I totally get why Sam couldn't bring himself to trust Smeagol/Gollum, I mean, I can't say I'd be any less protective. Yes, Sam's churlish about it all, he's definitely unkind, but he's seen a lot, he saw how the ring affected Boromir, and he sees how Gollum/Smeagol is, what he might be capable of. I've always seen Sam's behavior toward Smeagol as a warning, like sure Frodo will talk all nicely to you and you might see him as soft or an easy target, but I'm not, I'm mean, you don't know what I might be capable of. Like he hoped to forestall what he saw as inevitable betrayal. (Sam is my hero, can you tell?)

[@robertbryant8243]

It's worth noting that, in the books, Frodo never entirely trusted Gollum either. More than once he had to resort to threats to convince Gollum to back off. "At the last need I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you to cast yourself into a chasm, you would do it."

[@ayyyemossy1355]

I have always found their dynamic to be so fascinating. There’s one piece in the book were JR Tolkien admitted to crying while he wrote it. It’s when Sméagol sees Sam and Frodo sort of cuddling together, asleep due to exhaustion and dehydration. He moves over to gently touch Frodo’s knee. His face changes and he exposes this incredibly vulnerable side of himself. Sam wakes up and berates Gollum for being near Frodo.

[@tempestholmes]

@@smellyfeet706 Aw thanks! ^_^

[@fleetskipper1810]

I can’t fault Sam, either. His job was to protect Frodo. And he wasn’t wrong to see Gollum as a threat. Still, it’s tantalizing to wonder what might have happened if both Frodo and Sam showed Gollum compassion in the movie. (As someone else has commented, in the book, Frodo harbors less compassion toward Gollum than he did in the movie.) compassion is certainly the most positive response.

[@wherefancytakesme]

Tolkien once answered in a fan letter, even, that whether or not Sam was nice to Gollum too wouldn't have made much of a difference. The only difference would be at Mt. Doom where he sacrifices himself willingly rather than by accident, to make up for betraying them. Also the books do give Sam a moment of pity for Gollum. He's warding him off so Frodo can go inside Mt. Doom, and is about to kill him because he definitely deserves it. But then Gollum begs him not to, saying he's always lost and just wants to live a little longer before the ring is destroyed. Sam, who did have to put on the ring at one point in the books, looks at Gollum and thinks of how miserable his existence must be because of the ring, and can't bring himself to do it. He tells him to leave them alone before he changes his mind. That actually does make a big difference, because according to another fan letter, if Sam did kill Gollum there the Nazgûl would have caught them and it'd have been all over. So Sam's not a monster or anything, not at all.

[@here1717]

Wow, who knew that Jonathan wasn’t just a therapist. He is an actor too, his Gollum/ Sméagol impression is perfect. 😂

[@tumblingrosesstudio]

#truth

[@a.katherinesuetterlin3028]

I'm pretty good at imitating Smeagol/Gollum, but Jonathan has to be at least as good as I am, perhaps better. That whole advert with him as "Gollum/Smeagol" was priceless! 😂😂😂 As for his scene re-enactment in college not getting him a gf? He dodged quite a few bullets, actually. You may want a partner at that young an age, but if you are your authentic self, as Jonathan was as a LOTR fan reenacting a scene, and ppl pass you over, that's on them. I think there is way too much emphasis on "being a certain way" in order to look or be "socially acceptable" in the overall dating realm. Too much fakery. There's "putting your best foot forward," and then there's ridiculous levels of energy put into being a snob in order to seem "mature" and "grown-up." I, for one, am not down with that. So, Jonathan, I applaud you for being you. Your imitation of Gollum is spot on. 😁😁👏👏👏

[@bonanahh]

I kind of like how Bilbo comes to understand that there is conflicting conversation happening in front of him, especially after Gollum says he wasn’t talking to Bilbo. The hobbit doesn’t necessarily know what DID is and how it works, but he’s accommodating the creature in front of him instead of beating them senseless or something. Obviously this is partially a manipulation tactic to get out of the situation, but he could have handled them differently but he didn’t.

[@LordofFullmetal]

Right? I'm sure it was unintentional, but it does send a good message. He doesn't sit there and argue with Gollum, about whether this other person is real or not - he just accommodates to what he can see in front of him.

[@roj4169]

@@LordofFullmetal I mean, Gollum stated since the very beginning his intentions to eat him, in any case it's best to not upset him anymore. But when Bilbo was considering killing Gollum, he was finally able to see beyond the threatening and volatile creature that he had met.

[@swiftninja91]

People with DID get done so dirty in the media, often portrayed as either dangerous or "insane". It's good to see it talked about on this channel and given the time and respect it deserves

[@twitch6260]

As a System (body with DID) we appreciate this more than you can know.

[@kaiyodei]

i can't wait for the media to start adding in all those wild claims I see from plurals. like claims that they can hop into the mind of other bodies. treating disasters that happen in "the inner world" like it happened to them in the outterworld.

[@twitch6260]

@@kaiyodei we could write a book or a full seasons worth of stuff that happens in the inner world, a lot of which can't be done in reality.

[@vimtocat1741]

@@twitch6260 Any tips for making a character with DID I only ask because I'm writing a character and she has a "sister" alter basically and much like how Gollum is to Smeagol, Ursula (the alter) acts as a type of protector to Elena (the host/core), the only problem is Ursula is incapable of feeling emotions so she has no qualms with hurting innocents if it means protecting them both.

[@twitch6260]

@@vimtocat1741 always remember that an alter is another full fledged person, and should be written as such, and that every alter, including the host, has positive and negative triggers. Not every System can talk amongst themselves consciously, and so rely on journals or notes in phones or tablets. Switches can be immediate if the circumstances are extreme enough or that problem is what the alter looking to switch was made for, and switches can last days or hours depending on the situation. Some alters may be more prone to violence, as they know no other way of solving a problem outside the headspace. Feel free to ask as many questions as you want, we love informing people about DID.

[@tariqthomas9090]

“[People with D.I.D] deserve compassion. They deserve understanding. Understanding leads to compassion. And compassion leads to healing.” Love you guys. ❤️

[@Firegen1]

✊🏾 Exactly this.

[@trinaq]

Likewise, they're human beings, just like everyone else, and don't deserve to be judged solely by their disorder.

[@thorfirewalker5685]

Lacking understanding commonly leads to fear. And as we all know: Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. The path to the dark side this is.

[@stephanc6138]

yea...but be smart abt it. in case you wind up murdered. (theres several cases, in case your wondering)

[@lolclub_xd8932]

I have DID and 7 alters thank you :)

[@maribelsystem3803]

Aw man I was so nervous to watch this video. The attitudes towards DID, even in the mental health community, can be so negative. I’m glad to see the compassion and respect given in this video 😊

[@pineddew]

your dog is very cute

[@challengemeneo]

Please watch this video correcting the misinformation in this video though... A lot of mistakes were said kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4Grl2yebNmmkKs

[@reniefuwa]

Why would you expect anything else from these two? They're some of my favorite KZbinrs for that reason

[@letterborneVods]

@@reniefuwa people online you trust can disappoint you … it’s happened many times before. But I’m glad it turned out well.

[@jpetersgoyanks]

Wow, even in the mental health field? That’s surprising.

[@maryevens4261]

One thing you didn't mention in the "conversation scene". It took me a while to realize it, but when Gollum is speaking his pupils are pinpoints, while Smeagol's pupils are dilated which makes him look more innocent & childlike.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

GREAT catch!

[@suman7992]

When Bilbo says that he was a coward for not killing Gollum when he had the chance, Gandalf says compassion needs more courage than killing does. And that everybody has a role to play (Gollum does sort of save Frodo in the end). +50 points for storytelling and +60 points for having the courage to support and not shun.

[@lucyandecember2843]

o.o

[@tanadarko6991]

I don't think Frodo was calling him a coward, so much as wishing Gollum wasn't stalking them.

[@metademetra]

"Sort of" Middle Earth would have been 110% dead if Gollum didn't bite Frodo's finger off.

[@nynkejongejan5027]

@@tanadarko6991 There is also a part in the hobbit where Bilbo talks to Gandalf about it where he calls himself a coward I think. But you're not wrong though, Frodo was definitely just disturbed by Gollum's presence.

[@8draco8]

Why Andy Serkis never got an Oscar for any of his motion capture roles is beyond me. CGI is basically modern make up

[@lucas-xf7rc]

He basically is the God of it...

[@dogsfromthecity]

No, it isn't. There are SEVERAL animators adjusting and literally translating his performance to the CGI face. But his performance and voice acting is still great

[@sunfurycommenting1013]

@@dogsfromthecity That's a technicality, as we can see the raw footage which is incredible acting, but you're right about it not qualifying. Honestly they should have given Serkis the award based on the original footage of just him, but unfortunately it doesn't count if it's not in the movie directly. There was a hilarious clip of Serkis recieving a different award and Gollum interrupts it so at least we have that 😄

[@AWSVids]

@@dogsfromthecity And with make-up, there are several sculptors and craftspeople literally deciding what the face will look like and how performance will translate through it. The make-up applications on Marlon Branco as Vito Corleone are a big part of what affected the way his voice sounded, because he had stuffed cheeks. He wasn't just doing that voice purely through talent of changing his vocal performance. He used a tool. He used the talent of other artists to help complete the visual appearance of the character. As much as what the digital artists did to translate Serkis' performance to the visual appearance of Gollum, Brando relied on a dentist to make the mouth application for him, he relied on make-up artists to make him look older, he relied on costumers to realize his character's appearance via wardrobe... etc, etc... Why does a performance suddenly have to be 100% ONLY reliant on the talent of the actor to be considered worthy of being their performance, just because it's CGI instead of costume and make-up and whatever other things an actor may rely on other people to achieve on their behalf? Not least of which is editing and sound design, which can greatly influence the way an actor's performance appears. I heard there was an editor who once did an interview and wouldn't say who the actor was, but that they had won an Oscar and he said their performance had been terrible in the raw footage, but that he saved it in editing by only using very select moments, sometimes even from before or after action and cut and the camera was still rolling, and crafting the context around them via editing to make the performance work. And it won the actor an Oscar, but it was all the talent of the editor that made it work. And what about writers and directors making so many decisions for the actor as well? How many actors have won Oscars for a certain film, but then went on to be terrible in almost everything else they're in? That's because it wasn't really them who made all the good decisions on that one film they won for. It was the writing that gave them good material and the director who told them how to do it well. Then maybe the editor did their thing as well and polished a relative turd. Then maybe the sound designers did exhaustive ADR sessions where they had to pull teeth with the actor to finally get them to say the line in a believable sounding way, then still had to blend two different takes of the same line together to make it work best. You never know how much an actor's performance has been fucked with in post. This influence from other artists applies, in varying degrees, to EVERY film acting performance ever given. It doesn't stop us from giving full credit to actors for what we eventually see of what they did on set. This should be no different for Andy Serkis... who really did like 10 times more work for Gollum/Smeagol than the average actor does for a role. He had to perform scenes multiple times, on set and then again years later in a motion capture studio. He had to do video recordings of his performance so that the animators could mimic it. He was totally in charge of driving the performance and making the key decisions for pretty much every shot. The animators were just copying what he did. And in the minority of instances where they had to hand-animate everything because Serkis can't climb vertically down a cliff face-first... this is no different than if an actor is replaced by a stunt-performer for certain shots and things the actor can't do. There are so many ways that actors aren't 100% of the talent behind what goes into a creating a character/performance... but CGI is the ONE filmmaking tool that's not allowed to join the party, or it's suddenly not an actor's performance anymore?

[@kuroinokitsune]

@@AWSVids ahhhhhh.. the pain. I do cg art. It seems like that thing happens to all cg. People probably think it's magic or something

[@brittneyfiedler1086]

I am autistic, so sometimes it’s hard for me to understand the emotions that drive characters in movies. You two are so helpful- I can watch my favorite movies and gain new perspectives/insights because of you. Thank you!!

[@lisetted1091]

It’s the same for me! 😄

[@eleanorholmes9431]

Exactly! And considering that I try and use fictional characters to make sense of (neurotypical) people in general, they’re also helping me with that.

[@ellasorrow4stolas445]

@@eleanorholmes9431 I have autism and not real people, but fictional characters help me find out who I am

[@eleanorholmes9431]

@@ellasorrow4stolas445 Oh, definitely! I usually relate more to fictional people than to the people around me. An autistic character in a book made me get my diagnosis as well.

[@letterborneVods]

Personally I don’t struggle with this specific thing (as an autistic person as well), but I do “struggle” with telling whether someone is a good actor or not (which I consider to be an asset). Because reading body language is a learned skill, so I know if you do this range of movements with these body parts it means this, etc. So there’s not really a difference between acting and “acting”, because it’s all just acting to me. (aka a learned behaviour)

[@kathmorrow7868]

Johnathan, I can share with you what I've learned, as a person with dissociative identity disorder. D.I.D. is a trauma response to repeated trauma before the age of 9. Everyone has parts when they're little and in a healthy environment those parts naturally combine into one. In a repeatedly traumatic environment that natural process of combining parts is interrupted and the parts remain separate to protect the mind. So separate that there's often amnesia, and parts may not know others exist. For some people the goal is to integrate their parts (integration), while others focus on communication and cooperation of parts (functional multiplicity). Either way the focus is on healing the underlying trauma. Therapies that are effective for DID include, but are not limited to: emdr, dbt, art therapy, internal family systems, among others. And while there's no meds for DID per se, meds the accompanying symptoms of depression, anxiety, insomnia, etc can be helpful. Unfortunately there's misunderstanding and stigma among in the mental health profession, and clients are more often than not, misdiagnosed with schizophrenia, bpd, bipolar, and others. This is traumatic for the client, and being mis-medicated can be damaging and harmful. It can take clients an average of 7 years to get a proper diagnosis and treatment. Meanwhile they suffer. I appreciate the kind approach you take, especially pointing out that it's not a choice or performance, and we deserve compassion and understanding. It's not a disease, and it's not actually a disorder, but rather a response to childhood trauma. I especially appreciate your clarity at the beginning that "there's no correlation between mental illnesses and violent villainous behavior, and in fact if you suffer with mental illness you're 10x more likely to be a victim of violence." Thanks! 💚

[@Checkmate1138]

Hello Kath! Would you mind sharing more about your past about how you were like with the disassociative disorder, what caused it, and how you overcame it (I assume)?

[@giga-chicken]

This is an interesting topic, it's a shame that it winds up twisted and skewed in most media that depicts it, though having watched through this I never realized how close to accurate they were in lotr (although they did depict an adult developing an alter with presumably no prior history). I wonder how this topic looks through the lens of evolutionary psychology. Can it occur in other mammals or is it just humans? Is it just humans or is there any evidence of DID in chimps and other primates? Is it a mental disorder through and through, or is it possible that it reduced other risks during development that could happen as a result of childhood trauma and would therefor be reinforced by natural selection? I'm all questions, I should research this topic more.

[@indigowulf]

The part about it happening age 9 or younger isn't always the case, it's not for me. I very clearly remember the moment of my initial "fracturing". It happened when I was 12. Now, I had a very traumatic and (this day and age) unique childhood, so I am probably the exception. I was diagnosed at 15 and that diagnosis was reconfirmed at age 44. During my fracture, it appeared to me as if I were in multiple positions in the room, looking at myself. Since that, however, I have not been able to communicate between my alters, which no therapist has been able to help me with. Normally I feel functional, but I have lost a job due to an alter popping out at the wrong time (a child).

[@19Arcenciel93]

@@Checkmate1138 Being that it would mean telling us traumatic events that were so terrible that they needed DID to help cope, I think it's a pretty inappropriate question to ask :/ If you listened to anything that this video, or in the comments than you wouldn't be asking. Get a clue.

[@sara-4026]

Thank you so much guys for correcting a few things in this video! And I also appreciate the approach jonathan takes, but I'm also glad that you corrected and clarified stuff. I couldn't have summarize it better than you. So thanks a lot. To both of you.

[@alyshabatchelor2793]

Thank you so much for this conversation starter! I have lived with DID for a very long time, and as a system, we function very well. We've been in therapy for years and years and have learned to coexist in a way that is healthy. I really appreciated you starting this conversation, although some of the information I don't think it's entirely accurate. I believe my alters have learned how to perform their roles in a healthy way, I have one that we are still working to communicate with and who is not entirely healthy, but for the most part we live a very healthy life. I have experienced both the "disappearing" of altars and "blending" of two altars together, and I know that it is a ton of work, and it's not that they just disappear when their roles are no longer needed, it's that they were never fully formed in the first place. I also know for a fact that no matter how much therapy I have, or how empowered I become my core group will never go away. We have a great way of communicating and work together as a team and we are all full complete people with complete lives living in one body. There are others who probably are in a different place, or their system is different but for me, I think I can be healthy with my entire system and nobody will disappear. Again, I really loved 90% of what you said and I really appreciate you starting the conversation! Thank you so much!

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

You're very welcome, and I'm hearing the feedback. Thank you for sharing it!

[@Rat_Queen86]

Hi Alesha, I’ve just been diagnosed with DID too. And I hope you are well 😊

[@notmydidea]

hey, another DID system here : )

[@notmydidea]

@@blahblahblah4544 i think it depends on the system but systems with an inner world where the "personas" basically live might be able to see them in the inner world. But unless they hallucinate they usually cant see the others in this world.

[@lucypeace6132]

I have learned so much watching this, the video on Split and the video on Moon Knight. It's so fascinating to see how these disorders work in a real way through Moon Knight, that makes you and other systems feel seen and I love that Marvel have done that and suspect its why Marvel are getting some push back from those in society that want to see these in a black and white 'I don't understand it so it must be bad,' way. Alysha, I hope you and your one alter can come to a good place so you can get on the final steps of your healing journey. I have to say, I was abused as a child, not nearly enough to develop altars, and my own healing journey has been really tough at times. It helps being a writer and being able to examine my trauma through characters. So you systems who have so much more work to do, inspire such admiration in me, not just that you found the strength to deal with your traumas, but that you, as a system, are working or learning to work together to heal as a system. I have a newfound regard, respect and fascination for this condition and for those of you who have learned to love and celebrate who you are, with every aspect of who you are. I'm so grateful that you came to the comments to call out the inaccuracies and to teach those of us who simply don't understand, and help guide Jonathan to a better understanding, which helped guide a lot of us who watch this channel to a better understanding. It really does highlight the need to keep learning and keep an open mind about all things, because, as a race, we still have so much to learn and so much more need for compassion and empathy.

[@xdarksamurai11x]

as a person with DID, you have no idea how much hearing Johnathan start the video saying there is no link to violence and mental illness meant to me. also how happy i was to see DID on here and it NOT be Split!

[@PhoenyxAshe]

I'll admit, part of me wants them to do Split, if only to point out the flaws. The rest of me thinks that it could be difficult for someone with DID to watch even so.

[@kaybadberg534]

Johnathan said he was going to cover Split at a later date but he knows it’s not an accurate representation.

[@thebandwagonfanpodcast]

100%! I think thats something most of society is wrongly conditioned to believe due to movies and tv. Curious if you have any thoughts on the Moon Knight series?

[@xdarksamurai11x]

@@PhoenyxAshe I saw Spilt and Glass when they came out. They did their research on DID for the movies for sure, but also damaged the community badly.

[@xdarksamurai11x]

@@thebandwagonfanpodcast I'm actually looking forward to seeing it. I will be interested to see what they do with it for the series.

[@BeAWritter]

Alan: "This is the dumbest one we've done" The amount of passion in it makes it the best (My brother and I talk in movie quotes almost all the time and LotR is one of our favourites)

[@Mike-gd4zd]

*My father has been a drug addict for as long as I have grown up…* he has DID and it is an absolute emotional rollercoaster. I both hated and loved him, but I never felt like I ever got to actually ‘know him’ properly because I always had difficulty knowing what ‘was him’ and what ‘was the addict’. Living with him was always highs and lows and there was never a neutral or consistent baseline of domestic safety. Needless to say he succumbed to his addiction over his family. It made me very hyper vigilant growing up, and very sensitive to reading the social mood in many circumstances. He was very dangerous because of his sudden outbursts, paranoia and mind games towards his own family. (Side note: Andy Serkis deserved multiple Oscar’s for this role and the believably of Gollum/ Sméagol’s psychology - a masterclass of 21st century acting)

[@Shadow1Yaz]

As a system (person with alters) I know for us there's a wide range of handling trauma. One alter copes by trying to help others and just ignoring his needs, one alter tries to talk about it and process it and unfortunately one dr*nks. DID is an emotional rollercoaster to experience because of the hypervigilance/hyperarousal from our traumas. It's like you spend so much time trying to keep yourself safe that you never feel safe. On top of that, some alters have to be there to HOLD a problem, like maybe it's not safe to have chronic fatigue so one or a couple of alters exclusively hold it so others can function without it. I'm sorry to hear about the negative experiences with your father. It's not his fault he had DID, but it wasn't yours either. Alters, while their own people are facets of the same mind and it's rough when some of them are unpredictable or don't trust you. (I also think Andy Serkis should have won Oscars for his role. He put SO MUCH work into it. I also think the animators who animated Gollum/Sméagol should have won something too!)

[@constancecampbell4610]

I am sorry for what you went through. I hope you can see yourself as a survivor. Also, hellyes to Serkis deserving Oscars. ✌️💕

[@FullMoonHowl]

That really sucks. I'm sorry you went through that.

[@kaiyodei]

there is no "was him" the others in his head are real people. I am told.

[@rebeccamcvicar5237]

Feel ya. It's a very confusing coping mechanisms for everyone involved. You are both survivors. ❤

[@Sund3v3]

Thank you for sharing such a positive attitude towards CG artists. It can be so humiliating and frustrating when people who don't know much about digital art put it down and dismiss all the hard work that goes into it.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

It's incredibly hard work. CG artists are awesome!

[@JustPilgrim]

As someone with DID, i appreciate that you know how to say “dissociation “ correctly- too many people add that extra A and say disassociation, which i believe is not correct.

[@letterborneVods]

That annoys me too! But for me that’s because I’m very particular about things being “right” (or what I think/know to be right), it’s an autistic trait. The word “disassociation” exists too and I believe the meaning is somewhat similar (to separate or detach something or oneself from something), that must be why people always confuse them. I think it’s already infuriating when that happens (and I know about it, I might be getting things wrong that I don’t know about), but I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be if it’s about something as personal as a diagnosis.

[@alexandrialeonora6542]

That scene of Gollum looking lost out of his cave, trying to force himself to leave to get back his Precious, was honestly so heartbreaking. And no matter how many times I watch it, it remains heartbreaking. I actually always wish that he DID get the Precious back, just so he wouldn't be in such obvious pain. Amazing filmwork there. Also, agreed about Martin Freeman entirely. It's the little things he adds to his performances that bring every single character to life. I mean, they truly could not have chosen a better young Bilbo. (Even the nose twitch thing he does as the character, it's something we saw Ian Holm do as older Bilbo as well!)

[@AviRox1154]

He was far and away the best thing about the Hobbit films for me. Pitch perfect casting for the part, and the Riddles in the Dark sequence is easily on par with some of the best scenes in the LOTR trilogy. It's a shame that it all got so bogged down by corporate film demands that they be a prequel to Lord of the Rings rather than their own, independent story as originally intended by Tolkien (At least initially).

[@TheDragonsRose]

Gollum is the best thing that came from the Hobbit films. They did him justice in showing why Bilbo was so merciful.

[@DaDunge]

He did get the ring back. Before mount doom freed him from it forever.

[@alexandrialeonora6542]

@@DaDunge Yes, but not in the Hobbit film. I mean specifically that I wanted him to have the ring back in that very instant, if only so he wouldn't look so sad and heartbroken. That was how well I thought they created the character - and that specific moment - in the film.

[@alexandrialeonora6542]

@@AviRox1154 Completely agree about "Riddles in the Dark". I saw the film multiple times in the theater specifically for that scene. I mean, the two of them (Andy and Martin) were just fantastic. I'd be waiting eagerly for that scene to show up and to really be so deeply in the story again! (I also thought the musical scenes back at Bag End also fit with the original "Hobbit" book.)

[@Dan-B]

I’m so glad that you made sure to explain the difference between mental illness and the story. The story is why Gollum is a villain, mental illness is why he’s a sympathetic character.

[@sylviasammon-burns6021]

My mom has told me a couple of times about how she feels Andy Serkis was snubbed for an Oscar, especially after the scene with Smeagol and Gollum talking, and she proposed that there should be an Oscar category for motion capture performances. The award would be shared with the actor who gave the performance and the head of the design team who animated it. I think that is a brilliant idea. Moving on to another story, I was always struck by the line "We forgot the taste of bread..." when Smeagol is retreating into his cave because it shows how corrupted by the ring Smeagol was. I talked about that quote in an essay about Macbeth. Alan, I love what you said about how when we see a movie in a cinema, we are all having this shared experience. The outside world simply does not exist, our world is simply that particular moment, and when we watch, we are engaging and experiencing the moment not with each other, but with the characters. Because of that we are participating in the story. That's also why I love theatre, and along with the shared experience and this being the only world, theatre has a certain impermanence, since even after seeing a film in the cinema you can watch a movie again on DVD, but with theatre you enjoy it and then it is gone.

[@EmoBearRights]

Serkis is just so underated as a performer and a lot of what makes this character work is him. He was so good he got type cast there's a TV trope about motion capture artists and characters named after him called Serkis folk. Also Serkis did a parody speech as Gollum at the MTV awards and later on read Trump's tweets in the style of Gollum.

[@tumblingrosesstudio]

That's a brilliant idea- have you written to the Academy to suggest it? I think you and your mom should!!!!! You can make a compelling argument!

[@theinformationstation5328]

I don’t know if you did it purposefully, but Bilbo’s moment of Pity (in the pure sense, compassion and kindness to another without benefit, or even at a cost to yourself) to Gollum is THE key moment to Eru Iluvatar’s plan for the destruction of the Ring. Sparing Gollum sets absolutely everything in motion. Tolkien talks extensively about how important that moment was and how important that pity is in real life. Well done.

[@LaundryFaerie]

Isn't it fascinating that we, as a group of humans, still go into an (artificial) cave to have someone tell us a story?

[@AlexisDouFlo]

I love this, so true!

[@guadalupemoyano-pacheco1030]

Lil storytime! My boyfriend has DID and he's one of the kindest, nicest people I have ever met. Even if he has to heal the trauma that ended up making him dissociate, his alters are also very kind and protective. I'm lucky to have them all in my life and I have learned so much from them. I was scared at first because I didn't know what was going on, but him and his alters made me realize how much I love psychology and how much I love helping those in need of kindness. Never underestimate kindness.

[@jackbeynon8980]

Great comment.

[@kaiyodei]

and all his alters/headmates are sweet too right? even if they are a fictive of a character like Yoshikage Kira?

[@TheIslandDivision]

I don't know if should give you a big high five or a hug. You're awesome and you are all lucky to have each other.

[@ilovenycsomuch]

That’s very interesting, I’m curious do you see each alter as a part of him & you love all those parts equally or do you mostly consider his original self to be your boyfriend with his kind alters popping in from time to time ?

[@kaiyodei]

@@ilovenycsomuch I'd like to know too. from other people, what I see, one is dating one person who just happens to share the body. if that person goes dorment, or fuses with another, they are gone. all that is left is a body being used by other people. you will see the body, but the person you loved might be gone. this is how people tell me D.I.D works. then again I am told don't make alters 100% people. there was a core personality, fuse everyone together, so only one person in one body. people don't like the idea of one body and many people because they think they know how brains work and consenseness works, when even professionals don't. but the professionals tell you souls don't exist. even if a plural person wants to believe it

[@onbearfeet]

Thanks for making this. I understand you've only scratched the surface of DID, but there's so little good public discussion of it that I'm shocked you covered as much as you did. And with Smeagol/Gollum, of all characters! I had an adopted brother with DID--much older, grown up by the time I was born, his illness a product of horrific abuse by his birth parents. I never met his alter, probably because he never perceived a toddler as a threat, but my dad once had to talk the alter into putting down a knife during a tense moment. Before I started kindergarten, my brother was arrested and convicted of a violent crime his alter committed, and for the rest of his life I knew him mostly as a source of letters and collect phone calls. He died in prison, of cancer, when I was 19. When I talk about my family, I always clarify that I used to have more brothers than I now do, and that one died. Someone always says they're sorry, and I shrug and say it was a long time ago. Which it was--about half my lifetime ago, now. But mostly I just don't know what to say. How much time do I want to spend debunking myths and old movies? Is the person I'm talking to worth unpicking the tangle of birth and adoption and mental illness and my own family's toxicity that left me with PTSD? He heard I liked cats, and got his cellmate to draw me a black cat in a jungle (I still have the picture). He died of lung cancer, and one of the last things he did was make me swear I'd never smoke like he did. To him, I was forever his baby sister, and he spent some of his literal dying breaths caring about me. To nearly everyone else, he was a monster. Thank you for making a little dent in all those myths. I can see from the comments that you did it far from perfectly, but it seems like you tried in good faith. Most of all, thank you for talking about compassion. It's what my brother needed most.

[@miriamhodges5632]

Sorry to hear about your brother. 🥺

[@onbearfeet]

@@miriamhodges5632 Thanks. This comment is probably the most I've said about him in one go in 20 years. Maybe ever, since even while he was alive people tended to avoid mentioning him. He was a kind person, when he could manage it. He deserved more compassion than he got.

[@janedoex1398]

I am very sorry for your loss.

[@RhapsosProductions]

As someone who has non-DID issues, but has done some things I'm not proud of, it is heartening to see a positive angle on those of us with psychological problems. There are probably people in my past who see me as they would your late brother, but there are others who saw the good trying to get out and they have stuck by me. I am sorry that he is no longer in your life, but I am glad you got to see the good in him while he was

[@onbearfeet]

@@RhapsosProductions People are complicated. As an abuse survivor myself, I would never minimize what my brother's alter did. It was terrible and inexcusable. But he's also the guy who mailed me that picture of a cat because I was far away and he had no other way to express love. He was a kind person when he got the chance, but his life rarely gave him the chance. I'll tell you what I would say to him if I could speak to him now: you can't undo the past, and you can't make the harm you caused go away. But you can choose to be kind now, and you can take every opportunity to be a good person. You'll never be perfect; no one is. But I know you can still be the better you I've known all my life. Seek out the support you need. Lean on the people who love you, and be good to them. When you fall, keep getting back up. I'll still be here. I hope this helps. * hugs *

[@farrex0]

6:26 Thank you! I am a professional game artist and it infurates me how much people disregard the artists work. People say things like, "this game looks so dated, how come a 2016 game looks better than this?". But computers is not what is making the art, artists are. And as much as technology advances, it is still humans the ones making it. And humans do not magically become more talented with time. Imagine expecting Olympic athletes to run faster each year. And considering it a failure, if you run slower, than the gold medalist from four years ago. The better the technology, the more detail you can add, but the more detail you can add the more detail you have to add. Also the more detail you add, the easier you can see the imperfections. So it means that Technology advancements only for the most part, results in more work the artists have to make. And then you add to that, that the bar gets higher with time....

[@ayior]

As someone in both the Animation and Games Industry, I feel ya. People think I'm somehow not a real artist when I tell them I work digitally. (despite the fact I also work traditionally) Also the fact that having the skills to pull these things off is special! Like, people think a video game will look better if you just throw more money and time at it, but there are actual human beings behind this whose artistic skill the game depends on rip

[@pankhuribhatnagar2360]

Tbh I am one of those ppl who says animation should get better. Your comment put a lot into perspective for me.

[@farrex0]

@@ayior Yeah, I have experienced that as well. I show someone a piece I made in 3D which took more than a month to make. Because 3D takes a lot of time to make. And they are like, "meh". And then I show to the same person, a pencil drawing I made in half an hour. And their mind is blown. And I am always baffled by the contrast, like the thing I just showed you in 3D is a thousand times more difficult and complex than what I drew. But non artists, always react to the digital art, as if it was made by the computer, as if it has no merit. At work, sometimes, we look at new games in awe, we all gather around and try to guess how they achieved certain things. Admiring their work, and pointing each awesome little detail. And we are like, this game simply looks amazing! Then I look in the comments, and people are shitting on how "bad" and "dated" the game looks. Which has made me ponder a lot, on the contrast of how the normal lay person looks at digital art, and the professional does.

[@cbpd89]

People forget the hours it takes to make digital art look so good that it looks real. They have deadlines to be met, and if the thing isn't perfect, well, we're on a budget and on a schedule! Just recently I have been listening to people complain about the CG in a TV show because "it's 2022, shouldn't it look better?" It was 10 hours of footage to work on for 10 months, with a 10th of the budget of all those movies it is being negatively compared to. It isn't magic, it isn't cheap, and it isn't fast. But thanks to all the artists that make our games and movies! You do good work!

[@crazyloverofcats]

Jonathan's impressions of Smeagol/Gollum are spot on and brilliant!

[@aftism_]

Thank you for saying that systems deserve compassion and love. I myself am a DID system this video had us tearing up. I was scared going into this video because I was nervous DID would be talked about like some mythical disorder that folks fake to garter sympathy and attention. The way DID is discussed here is accurate, down to earth, and comforting to hear as a system. Thank you so much for recognizing a community of people who are victims of judgment, neglect, and abuse from so many people.

[@thepossibles2149]

We have DID and finally we get, why we always told everyone that Sméagol is not evil - and even when we read the books as a child. No one believed us. Part of us just healed. Thanks!!!

[@earth2bob]

I'm so happy for all of you 💞

[@DaDunge]

No but he's not good either. His split is not in good and evil but in agressive and meek. It is Smeagol who leads Frodo to Shelob.

[@lucyandecember2843]

@@DaDunge o.o

[@kaiyodei]

darkness is not evil. people forget this all the time

[@kaiyodei]

@@DaDunge but he did it out of trauma!

[@Lillith.]

What I love most about Tolkien's work is that he has stated that true evil doesn't exist. You can be corrupted into being evil, but it doesn't make you full evil. In the books you hear some orcs, often seen as just pure evil creatures, talking about what they will do after the war. In the second film you see one defend the hobbits. And Sam is the hero of Lord of the Rings. Tolkien has said so and fans agree. His vision when he wears the ring is beautiful. Everything is beautiful and green and lively. Such a simple thing to want to turn the world into. He did do Gollum/Smeagol dirty, but he did it to protect his master from what he perceived to be a murderer. And it kind of turned into a self fulfilling prophecy.

[@lucyandecember2843]

o.o

[@Merlijn1994]

Yeah I also think we should cut Sam A LOT of slack with how he treats Smeagol. Yes people with mental illness deserve love and compassion and healing, but I can't fault Sam for not only being protective of his friend, but also the entire fate of the world. And in hindsight it did not work out, but, given the knowledge he had at the time, I don't think it is fair to say that it really is Sams fault

[@runswithmooses87]

I don’t think Sam was wrong in Gollums case. both Sam and Frodo where aware of what Gollum had done in past especially with Bilbo. And where warned in the book that he was treacherous.I think it was more a case of compassion vs practicality. Sam did show gollum both in the movie and book some compassion but understand he had been with the ring for long time being twisted by it. he had seen the affects of the ring on other people Bormir and Farimir and had watch it slowly Corrupt Frodo through out the series so he was more aware of what the ring did to those who wear it especially over an extend period of time

[@Jessikared1997]

"When else do we go together and do this?" The Theatre- plays and musicals- the first community experience from the Greeks to the cave men telling stories with drawing on the wall in the absence of language. There is something inherently *human* about story tellers and the people who listen to them together. This is what the essence of film is. It's thousands of years of story tellers' dreams about techniques to tell stories realized with technology.

[@redpandaluver8561]

I was thinking the same thing!

[@dabbyabb]

Excellent points. Also, D&D is a similar experience, though smaller in scale.

[@Jessikared1997]

@@dabbyabb absolutely! And the scale doesn't matter! We are all story tellers- we tell stories about those we have lost or even just about what happened during our day. They're all equally important. It's regular days sometimes that make great non fiction (and fiction!) books and movies

[@classicambo9781]

Orchestras too. Sat next to a lady who cried at the same part of Hayden and we just held hands for the rest of it. Never met her, introduced ourselves or have seen one another since but it was special.

[@dabbyabb]

@@classicambo9781 Agreed! I've been playing in orchestras since 9th grade. I love the part where everyone in a room is almost holding their breath, basking in the excruciating beauty of the last few measures of the solo in a concerto. There is also the collective, silent horror that one time a lady loudly struggled to open a bag of potato chips on the front row of an intimate performance space and, upon eventually succeeding started munching away, ruining the recording for the soloists. 😬 I have never seen so many musicians' eyes bugging out at once.

[@victoryadogo1390]

Is it just me, or is Allan's hair getting more and more luxurious every time.

[@driftingdruid]

maybe it's Loreal, because he's worth it ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@lolscrewmylife]

Yes

[@shinankoku2]

I’m Team Sam on this one: smeagol was an addict and the ring was his crack. There was no way he wasn’t going to eventually lose control.

[@georgethomas4567]

This is by far my favorite character in all LoTR he's so heartbreaking. He's not evil, he's not out to rule the world. He's just a person who because of evil is viewed as a monster. Also he has some of the funniest lines. I used to quote, "What's taters, precious?"" Anytime we'd eat mashed potatoes or something that had potatoes in it. To the point where my mom would make me put a dollar in a jar when I did xD

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

"Po-tay-toes. Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew." That gets quoted in our house a lot too. 😂

[@aubreycarter7624]

Lol, those are the most said LOTR quotes in my family as well! My dad and siblings compete for who can do the best Gollum voice impression.

[@alexandrialeonora6542]

So true! Gollum/Smeagol is such a quotable character. My sister and I used to quote the heck out of the LotR films, but especially Gollum/Smeagol's lines! XDDD

[@LittleHobbit13]

I wouldn't say it's heartbreaking because he's not evil. The Ring doesn't create, it augments. The darkness that you see from Gollum was always there in Smeagol. You look at Frodo, comparatively: clearly a good person, huge heart (arguably more "good" than Smeagol was in the beginning), and even he started to get twisted by the end of the story. Boromir might even be a better example, despite not being a Ringbearer. Clearly a good person but with some damage due to the wars and strained family dynamics, but the Ring latched onto that darkness and amplified it, quickly corrupting him away from being his usually honorable self. The tragedy is not that the Ring made a good person evil, the tragedy is that it corrupted Gollum enough that he could not longer really pursue the good.

[@MonkeyJedi99]

@@LittleHobbit13 Very well said!

[@Ona1979]

I used to have DID. My alters were never a burden. Unless I had to be present, I didn't fight the switches. I was staying in domestic violence shelter and a friend of mine, told me about conversions that I didn't remember happening. She said that I was nothing like myself, but that my actions were reasonable. I think that sometimes I would switch if someone asked me to do something that I had the right to say no to, but I couldn't do for myself. I think that is what my alters did for me. They did things for me that I couldn't do for myself or provided me with things that I desperately needed such as, unconditional love, a feeling if safety, a healthy loving family. Some of them held onto some of the most horrific memories from my childhood and that was a gift. One alter who protected me from bad memories, was self destructive and her defense mechanism, was to please people who she was afraid of. Bad things happened to me more often when she was in charge, because it was extremely easy for men to take advantage of her, she coped with the pain by harming herself and she wanted nothing more than to be dead so that the the pain would stop. My system helped her go to sleep so that she wouldn't hurt anymore. I loved and valued every alter that I had, even if I didn't know what role they were taking to protect me. Rather than fighting the condition, I embraced it and it was a helpful thing until I didn't need it anymore. I knew that I had DID for a good reason and I let it help me. I knew that integration could be the price of healing.

[@sim771]

That is a beautiful story full of darkness and of light. I am glad you have healed and thank you for sharing your path and journey with us 💙

[@hazelhedgewitch2188]

DID is not reversible. If you've integrated coolbeans. But those people are still with you. They are indeed a trigger away to help if they are needed. Just like many other Brain Disorders: it is not reversible.

[@Ona1979]

@@sim771 Thank you. I am glad that I had DID to help me while I was healing. When being present became too much, I could count on having a break and being productive at the same time. The events that lead to my healing are somewhat unique, but I hope that my experience can help other people find healing from thier trauma. I have heard therapists mention integration, but I have never heard of it happening. The abuse started when I was 18 months old, which is before a person's mind has integrated into one mind. Until recently, I didn't know what having an integrated mind felt like. Having a mind that was split into 14 pieces was normal for me for 43 years. I am healing, but I still have a long road ahead of me. Remembering what happened to me with out checking out, is a victory, but I still have a long way to go. I am grateful that I am in a safe place and I think that I can heal. I am not damaged, I am not broken and what I survived hasn't made me defective. I have been hurt very badly and I can heal. I hope that my experience helps other people who are suffering from trauma to the degree where DID is the only way to survive. 💚

[@Ona1979]

@@hazelhedgewitch2188 DID isn't a neurological disorder, it is psychological adaptation for coping with severe trauma. The licensed therapist in this video has stated that integration is possible. My alters have become a part me. They no longer have distinct identities that are separate from my own. I have tried to call them back. They aren't there anymore. I have been triggered a lot since I have integrated and they have not come back. My licenced therapist has said that I no longer have the diagnosis of DID. I have studied this condition extensively. I am able to perceive the difference between an alter being dormant and being integrated and my mind. I hope to God that I never experience a trauma that is so severe that is so severe that I redevelop DID. To you this might be an intellectual curiosity. I have been one of the people who has experienced it. The damage that has been done to my body by my father effects my life every day. Some of the bones that my mother has broken, interfere with my ability to function and the physical damage to my body can't be fixed. My father would serve multiple life sentences if he was convicted. Some of the things that he has done to me when I was a very small child could have easily ended my life. Even if you have DID, you should think before casually tell a person who you don't know, what thier diagnosis is. If you don't have DID, you should respectfully and humbly allow that person to lead the discussion.

[@misscraycray777]

@@hazelhedgewitch2188 You didn't have to comment this here, but you did it anyway after watching Jonno preach about having compassion for others. Smh.

[@ovrair6340]

Before being taken over by the ring, smeagol was a bit of a trickster, and people didn't like him much, but I don't think he was actually a bad person.

[@trinaq]

I agree, Smeagol succumbed to greed, and it's sad that he was so consumed with it, that it led to his demise, and becoming Gollum.

[@Feasael]

Well it's debated a lot but it's generally accepted that Smeagol chose to murder his cousin for the ring completely of his own free will. The ring only gave him a reason. No one else on acquiring the ring was moved to acts of murder or in any way changed their personalities until after long periods of exposure. When the ring foes seem to take control it's temporary and in the case of Bilbo Boromir and Frodo all feel guilt for the actions they made under it's influence. Smeagol largely doesn't.

[@tanadarko6991]

The first time I saw you guys it was a LOTR feature on Aragorn - I could watch you guys do this all day. The triangle between Sam, Frodo, and Smeagol was brilliant. Sam attacking Gollum because he's "beyond saving" and Frodo seeing himself in Smeagol. In fact, when Gollum finally turns Smeagol back, he does it by talking about killing Sam. That's what finally turns him to the darkness permanently. How often do we see this IRL? Mom hate's son's gf. rags on her, rags on her, rags on her, until the son is forced to side against the mom. Fear does not bring out our best.

[@audreydimmel6674]

That was also the first Cinema Therapy video I saw. Been hooked ever since.

[@madmaxus1313]

The sight of Sméagol terrifies me. Even just thinking about this character makes my skin feel like it’s crawling. Not so much because I’m scared of the movie character, it’s the realization that this is what it feels like inside my own mind. I’ve tried going to therapy and I’m seeing a psychologist now but I can’t make myself say what happened anymore. The last time I talked about it the therapist was in tears and said she had to excuse herself for a moment… she never came back. The girl at the front desk came in and told me the therapist had a personal issue and had to leave but they would call me to schedule a new appointment. Well that call came about a week later and they told me that I needed more specialized help than they could offer me. Gave me a few recommendations and that was when I realized I was broken and needed to never talk about it again. I fight with myself every day to hang in there, don’t let go. But the voice in my head keeps on. It’s like he enjoys the torture. So I tried to silence back 24 years ago by doing something crazy. My dad somehow figured something was wrong and switched over to blanks. So I failed. So I just tried to lock the voice away. Put it in a cage so he can never get out again. But it’s always there taunting me from the shadow. Laughing every time I fail at something in my life. Cheating Ex, failing relationships between me and my kids, messing up at work. He’s always there. And I can’t tell anyone about it in my life because I don’t want to spend my life locked in a room with a “Self-hugging jacket”. I relate with Sméagol way more than I want to admit. Just glad nobody can hear him.

[@SpartanBrigade]

Your not broken. You don’t need to hide. Try the recommendations. If your old therapist had to leave that’s on her not you. Your not crazy, you could just use some help.

[@luciatat4084]

There’s only one person who can help you: God. No one else. People can’t help you. Please ask Him for help.

[@SomeAngryGuy1997]

@@SpartanBrigade Oh my god, learn the difference between 'your' and 'you're'.

[@SpartanBrigade]

@@SomeAngryGuy1997 Bruh lol

[@jennifervaughn1541]

I’m not trying to make you angry or anything but could it be a demon instead? A lot of people don’t believe in them but anyway Bible teaches their real. I do often wonder if some people that they diagnosed as DID may actually just have some kind of demon possession. I’m not saying all of people who have this do, but I wonder

[@adrianr3885]

i don’t have DID but i do experience depersonalization dissociation to varying degrees. the scariest period of my life was when i couldn’t look in a mirror without getting “caught” in it and having conversations with the “thing” in the mirror (me, but i couldn’t see it as myself). when i explain the experience to people i always reference smeagol/gollum and norman osborne in sam raimi’s spider man. it’s wild what our minds do to protect us from stress & trauma

[@kaiyodei]

but you could still be plural?

[@challengemeneo]

Please watch this video correcting the misinformation in this video though... A lot of mistakes were said kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4Grl2yebNmmkKs

[@juliewagner3023]

I think my favorite part of Andy Serkis’ “If the Bagginses loses, we eats it whole.” is the little matter-of-fact head tilt/shrug after he says it 🤣❤️ It gets me Every. Time. And Jonathan and Alan were so right, Martin Freeman’s comedic timing with the “Fair enough” is *chef’s kiss* Also, I don’t remember if The Hobbit was consistent in this, but I noticed a little trick in The Lord of the Rings. When Smeagol speaks, the pupils are very dilated (and the eyes look friendlier), and when he switches to Gollum, the pupils become very constricted. It was helpful for keeping track during the quick dialogue between the two when the camera was really zoomed in on the face!

[@amalyalevy6769]

I believe they do it there as well (which makes sense, since "The Hobbit" was made into a movie after LOTR was). Maybe it stood out to me so immediately because I work with animals, but I think the reasoning behind it is to play off of our associations with different pupil shapes: Vertically slit pupils are generally found on predatory animals such as cats and snakes, both of which are stereotyped as "sneaky," the kind of animals that will just suddenly strike, "two-faced," etc. So because Gollum has pupils that are vertical slits, we are easily able to recognize him for the predator that he is upon sight; a predator not only of others, but also in his toxic and abusive behavior toward Smeagol. Round pupils though are possessed by humans, which are more familiar. As a result, we see Smeagol's round pupils and are instinctively put at ease - at least for now, until his pupils change again, he is safe to be around. Moreover, he's made to look more similar to us, and we're generally more able to sympathize with those who remind us of ourselves. Notes on pupil shapes for people who are interested: -- pupil shapes are an adaptation designed to suit the niches and roles of animals within the ecosystem; there are advantages and disadvantages to each regarding eyesight capabilities. For example, our eyes are designed to maximize things like depth perception, whereas cattle tend to have horizontally-oriented pupils because those are designed to increase the range of vision (important for prey species so they can look out for predators). -- some shapes include: round, rectangular, horizontal ovals, vertical slits (there might be more I'm not remembering offhand; the world is A WEIRD PLACE Y'ALL)

[@amalyalevy6769]

Addendum: they do make the distinction, but because Gollum/Smeagol are always in the dark in "The Hobbit," you can't see it as clearly. When pupils of other shapes, like slits and ovals, expand in low-light settings, they get rounder. As a result, Gollum also appears to have round eyes in the dark - both in "The Hobbit," and in LOTR, including in that scene in "The Two Towers" where Smeagol tells Gollum to go away. At those times, Gollum has smaller (circular) pupils than Smeagol, which is a technique also used in many animated series.

[@thajocoth]

A friend of mine has DID. I know she has multiple alters, but I don't know all of the details of this. I highly suspect that I've only ever interacted with the "core" of her, but I don't really know. She's told me before about being switched to in the middle of some situations that really caught her off guard, because unlike Smeagol & Gollum here, she doesn't always perceive what's going on while she's in one of these alters. That sounds pretty terrible, honestly. Like, you suddenly appear and you're just in some random stranger's home, in the middle of hanging out with them, with no knowledge of how you got there, who they are, what arrangements you've made with them, etc... The very concept of that is simply terrifying.

[@carlalussini]

That's what happens for most people with DiD, I believe. And yes, specially if you're a woman, it sounds terrible!

[@emilyv1612]

Core = host = person out most often not necessarily the original (although depends if alters have different life stories then it’s the one who’s account matches with the body’s)

[@EldonJohansen]

Some times alters are switched off, other times they are in the background with varying degrees of influence and perception.

[@challengemeneo]

Please watch this video correcting the misinformation in this video ... A lot of mistakes were said here kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4Grl2yebNmmkKs

[@loverlei79]

The worst is waking up in bed from a "long sleep" and not knowing who, where or when you are. nothings familiar. the ceiling, your hands, the bed, the room, sometimes even the people. You desperately search your brain for answers, maybe even a cliff note from a partial memory. You learn to address everyone as "hun" "dear" or just look them in the eye and say nice things until you learn their name and nature of relationship. Then you just try to not f up your alters life and try to find what happened to yours. Sometimes never getting it back....because its been years.

[@aragon2097]

What I love about this is the response about how they represented DID. A lot of people thought that it was a very compassionate view. Others with DID showed their stories about how they didn’t want to be “healed” and he corrected himself. He recognized it and changed something about it. He’s very mature about that. I love that he doesn’t double down but listens to their input and changes.

[@sofia9182]

His description of Smeagol matches Omori almost perfectly: a normal person who did something terrible and now they have a different "person" that embodies all their "evil", the only difference is that Sunny was able to heal from his trauma

[@nichole5652]

I'm wheezing over how just *chefs kiss* their Gollum impressions are 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 and we get to see an episode where Alan talks a lot about the filmmaking ❤

[@FREAKOFNATURE-mb8oo]

Yeah, I love the filmmaking so much!!

[@hellummemlan]

When Jonathan does Gollum/Smeagol in the ”commercial”, haha I laughed my ass off!! My god! Give this man an Oscar 🤣🙌🏽

[@jenniferhiemstra5228]

Oh I DIED laughing! Every time I think they can’t top themselves with the sponsorships, they go and do it anyway 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@miekekuppen9275]

Nobody does the ad breaks better than these to.

[@hellummemlan]

Haha I couldn’t agree more with you guys! 😂🙌🏽

[@Sunbeargirl-]

Yesssssssssss, I was looking for this comment. 😂

[@Shunnabunich]

"When you see someone talking to nobody, and you think, 'well, that's psychosis' - it's psychosis if they're hearing voices that you don't hear. They're hearing things that you don't hear, and they're responding to things that you don't see." That's also called a Bluetooth earpiece. Gotta be careful these days!

[@PixelDee]

I was thinking the same thing! I have bone-conducting earphones and it looks like I'm talking to myself all the time, when in reality I'm on discord talking to friends.

[@AldatraSam]

Hahahahaha

[@extremity5462]

What if your blind and deaf? Everyone got psychosis then.

[@Seriously_Unserious]

"Sam's great flaw is how he treats Smegl." in the movies yes, but in the books, Sam is much kinder to Smegl - he's cautious of Smegl, and doesn't fully trust him but is willing to give him a chance to prove himself. Frodo, in the books, is also suspicious of Smegl and also willing to give him a chance to earn trust, but also knows who Smegl is and that it's unlikely Smegl will ever be trustworthy. Still, in both the books and movies, Smegl does come close at one point to finding redemption, but comes up short, and ends up falling back into his old habits.

[@Kageoni187]

I have known someone with DID. It is a palpable shift in the energy around the person who shifts that hits you first. In 25 years I have only met 2 of the alters and it was once each and around 20 years ago, but when I remember I can recall the intensity and feeling it evoked from me. She had been and to this day working intensively with a therapist on it.

[@thoushaltremain]

"Sam's hand wavered. His mind was hot with wrath and the memory of evil. It would be just to slay this treacherous, murderous creature, just and many times deserved; and also it seemed the only safe thing to do. But deep in his heart there was something that restrained him: he could not strike this thing lying in the dust, forlorn, ruinous, utterly wretched. He himself, though only for a little while, had borne the Ring, and now dimly he guessed the agony of Gollum's shrivelled mind and body, enslaved to that Ring, unable to find peace or relief ever in life again. But Sam had no words to express what he felt." - Mount Doom, The Return of the King. True strength comes from compassion.💙💪 I was thinking about that moment yesterday and even made it my profile picture lol. This morning I find this video. Best feeling everrr! You guys are awesome!! 🥰

[@Moeller750]

Good quote. Thanks for sharing it

[@meetmeatttheriverbank]

this makes me think of the ending of Revenge of the Sith. Anakin says (paraphrasing), “not killing me is weakness” and Obi-Wan’s solemn reply is “No, it’s compassion. Compassion for the man you were. The man you should have been.” After defeating Anakin, Obi-Wan walks away, unable to kill a defenseless man. Regardless of the media these scenes come from, they are breath taking 💕

[@secondjulia]

As much as I loved the movies, the way they sort of flattened Sam's character, particularly in his dynamic with Gollum, really bothered me. I mean, I get why they had to represent things differently on screen. You don't get all the beautiful inner experiences like this (though the script and the performances usually do a great job at translating it). The books really show the nuances of empathy and mercy all bound up with the influences of the ring and the potential for good and evil within everybody.

[@thoushaltremain]

@@meetmeatttheriverbank Indeed! Another strong heart and true hero. 🥰 Even if it doesn't change anything right then and there, compassion eventually helps more than revenge. We know how the story goes. 😉

[@thoushaltremain]

@@secondjulia I know! And Sam was always optimistically reminding Frodo that this potential for good is stronger, yet he kept his eyes wide open. 🤷🏽‍♀️

[@pamelah1220]

Their Smeagols spoken in unison made my day.

[@laurenw1168]

So I figured I would share about what the books say about smeagol because I'm listening to the audio books right now! The fact that he was corrupted by the ring is undeniable, but In the first Lord of the rings book when gandalf tells frodo about him, he doesn't paint a great picture of smeagol from the start. He was not a good person, hence his first act of influence by the ring being murder. We can see the contrast between him and Sam and Frodo who both start and finish as good people, and it takes a little longer to corrupt them, or even Bilbo who had the chance to kill Smeagol as his first act with the ring, but didn't. Smeagol was not well liked by his family and he immediately started using the ring (arguably before he was completely corrupted and it just gave him a way to practice the evil that was already in him) to become invisible and spy on the other River folk to the point where the matriarch of his family ended up casting him out. I think that he was able to have the ring for around 500 years has more to do with the fact that he was a lot like a hobbit and they seem to take a bit longer to get to full depravity like Gollum, but that's just my opinion. But at any rate, Smeagol was not a very good guy even before the ring came to him, he was just a simple river folk that liked to fish, but had a bad attitude from the get-go.

[@keolas6916]

I talked about this same thing with my husband when they said that. And I agree he was a DECENT guy not a GOOD guy. Usually not a big difference but I think this time it matters.

[@Riprake]

Indeed, as I recall, the book never indicates that any of Smeagol's people ever found out about his murdering Deagol (though some doubtless had their suspicions). They just despised him for using the invisibility the ring gave him to go around spying and stealing and playing nasty tricks on them. Since they didn't know about the ring either (just that he was somehow constantly getting the drop on them), they may well have feared him more than a little too. The description given in the book for The Hobbit also indicates that when Bilbo had Gollum at his mercy and was being tempted to cut him down with his sword, the ring actually gave him something of a vision of the loathsome life Gollum was leading at that point, apparently trying to make Bilbo hate him all the more. This backfired when he felt pity instead of horror at seeing how hellish his enemy's life was, and so decide to jump over him rather than cut him down. That Bilbo got the ring fairly by finding and keeping it instead of by treachery and violence against the previous owner was also one of the reasons it wasn't so effective at corrupting him as it had been with those previous owners. (Deagol might or might not have been so easily corrupted; he didn't live long enough after he found the ring for us to know what he might have done with it once he discovered its power.)

[@Rat_Queen86]

I’ve just been diagnosed with DID due to childhood trauma. I was terrified/am terrified. But this video helped. Thank you guys ☺️

[@Keish03]

Concerts Thats another experience where we all go with a bunch of strangers and just connect with the music and each other. Its magical

[@WallflowerProductions42]

One thing that really got me the first time I noticed it was that the "precious" isn't the Ring, Smeagol is the precious, and Gollum calls Smeagol "precious" because deep down that "alter" is just there to attempt to comfort him. Also I love how Tolkien shows us that even after all that Smeagol has been through, he still remembers what sun on the daisies is, or what eggs are, and he still sings, and he still enjoys riddle games - at his core there's still something there that is "human," that recalls the goodness in the world.

[@MistaGify]

Tolkien was asked what would have happened had Sam showed compassion to Gollum alongside Frodo, here’s what would have happened: Somewhere along the way to Mordor, presumably after Shelob’s Lair, the lure of The Ring and the prospect of its destruction would still have driven Gollum to betray them. Inside Mount Doom, things would have played out the same with Gollum claiming it. Then, with his ring-lust satiated, he would have remembered the dual kindness of Sam and Frodo, willingly throwing himself in The Crack of Doom to finally free himself and all Middle-Earth of ultimate evil.

[@RedHeadAlive09]

You got any sources? Not that I don't believe you, I'd just love to read or see the interview :)

[@Schoolgirl325]

I both agree and disagree that Sam’s kindness in addition to Frodo’s would have made a difference. On the one hand, a stronger support system would have eased Sméagol’s/Gollum’s paranoia more. On the other hand, ultimately I feel like it would have had to come from Sméagol’s acknowledgement of his agency in his crimes, acceptance of guilt for them, and resolve to be better for himself, not Frodo, Sam, or anyone else. It’s like Jon was saying, Sméagol was *beginning* the healing process of having hope to be better and getting rid of Gollum through Frodo’s compassion. However, it’s still a *flawed* healing process because he still wasn’t taking any sort of accountability for himself as a person. He was expecting for Frodo to be his caretaker and his conscience, rather than taking agency for himself as a person. Sméagol was basically expecting for Frodo to be a kinder version of Gollum for him. As soon as he thought Frodo betrayed him, though, (he didn’t, but he didn’t know that), Gollum came back.

[@chengarqordath]

@@Schoolgirl325 Not to mention that Smeagol trying to heal in the middle of a journey to Mordor and in close proximity to the One Ring is pretty far from ideal circumstances. It's adding a lot of stress and putting him in close proximity to something that's an obvious trigger for him, not to mention the Ring's supernatural influence.

[@Schoolgirl325]

@@chengarqordath Yep. You would need to get him far away from the one ring, out of the caves, and put into rehab and talk therapy to really heal Sméagol. He would need to be able to accept that he was responsible for killing his cousin and all those people over the years, not Gollum, and he would have to learn to deal with that guilt. It’s why, while I think having Sam’s compassion in addition to Frodo’s could have helped more, I still think Sméagol’s/Gollum’s fate would ultimately be the same.

[@lucyandecember2843]

o.o

[@lex5016]

I've had the honor of being in a relationship with someone diagnosed with DID (we're still friends) and he's the kindest, funniest person I know and all the alters I had the honor of meeting were absolutely amazing people. The thing that stuck with me tho was how close they were to each other, like a family 💜

[@punbug4721]

System here, not DiD, but similar. We've met a bunch of other systems now since discovering online there's others like us, who had a similar experience to ours. We've met some systems who are dysfunctional with alters who have unhealthy coping mechanisms, and we've met some systems who get along very well. We're lucky I guess, to be in the second category. Love my whole system and all the other systems we know! --Allie, Pun System

[@ilenastarbreeze4978]

@@punbug4721 whats a system? If you dont mind answering. Ive never heard the term before.

[@flounderingfish2480]

@@ilenastarbreeze4978 Not someone with DID, but the term “system” refers to the collective group of alters (the offical term for the multiple personalities inside someone with DID) and the host alter (the original alter, or the alter that fronts most often, so to speak) that is in a person. If anyone wants to correct me if I got it a bit wrong, then please do so!

[@monsterprincez]

@@punbug4721 OSDD?

[@BethanyDuarte]

I so appreciate you specifying that those of us with mental illness are more likely to be victims than villains. As someone who experienced pretty awful abuse and has CPTSD, the assumption that I would abuse others just because of that is so hurtful and hard to explain.

[@inshrektorgadget1546]

The part about Tolkien emphasizing compassion waa always something that really resonates with me. I suffer from violent ideation, intrusive thoughts that dwell on torturing and maiming people who I think deserve it. I have watched and rewatched the movies over and over, but the part that speaks hardest to me is when Gandalf talks of Smeagol to Frodo, and he says: "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement" That's been my mantra for years

[@mrtoast244]

The worst part for me as a kid watching this movie was near the end where Smeagol tells them "Smeagol lied". Looking back at the film, I see that the good in him really did want to be friends with Frodo and Sam but Gollum (all the bad) wouldn't let him. When Smeagol sent Gollum away all he did was push him deep into his own personality to the point where it started to eat away at him. Without Gollum to project all his negativity onto it's like he's accepted Gollum's bad traits as a part of himself, I mean really they are, and technically he's more complete because of it lmao but it's still sad

[@jgw5491]

Well, I think Smeagol wanted to be friends with Frodo. Sam, not so much. Sam could only care for Frodo's safety so could not spare any empathy for Gollum and Smeagol/Gollum knew Sam's hostility. Frodo had some empathy because he knew the power of the Ring. Smeagol felt *seen* by Frodo IMO.

[@windhelmguard5295]

the interesting thing is that, in the scene where smeagol sends gollum away, gollum is kinda undoing himself. because gollum exists in part to take the blame for what smeagol did and to protect him, by calling smeagol a thief and a murderer, he is forcing smeagol to confront the reality that smeagol escaped from by creating gollum in the first place.

[@sunfurycommenting1013]

@@windhelmguard5295 True, though I also think Gollum was trying to manipulate Smeagol into allowing him to stay by saying 'you're horrible and awful, nobody except me could ever care about you, nobody wants to help you survive, I'm the only one you can trust.' So, in a way, Gollum gaslights Smeagol to achieve his own goals and turns him away from Frodo so Gollum is all Smeagol has.

[@AWSVids]

@@jgw5491 True. A lot of people tend to wholly praise Sam for being the real MVP and all that, which is mostly warranted... but he DID make a big mistake in how he treated Smeagol, and only made matters worse by being so openly hostile. It was wise to be wary of the potential threat, but the open hostility, especially to the point of punching him repeatedly, etc... definitely is a big part of what made tensions higher and gave Gollum more power over Smeagol. That being said, however, it's arguable that they never would have destroyed the Ring if not for Gollum pulling his shenanigans at Mount Doom, so in the end, it may have worked out for the best, and even what's seen as negative can turn out to have purpose. That's the really interesting thing about the way Tolkien wrote this, because it takes everybody playing their part, even thanks to their flaws as much as their strengths, to get the job done. That applies to Boromir as well, because if not for him turning on Frodo, then Frodo might never have left the Fellowship, and then they'd have all headed to Mordor, and who knows what the outcome of that butterfly effect would have been... Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli wouldn't have been in Rohan to help save them from Saruman's forces, maybe Rohan falls at Helm's Deep, aren't there to save Minas Tirith, Gondor falls, etc... Same goes for Boromir failing to stop the Uruk-Hai from taking Merry and Pippin... then they wouldn't have been taken to Fangorn, wouldn't have met Treebeard, bla bla bla, Isengard never falls. Just like Bilbo deciding not to kill Smeagol/Gollum was initially seen as a "pity", but Gandalf tells Frodo, "Nope, even things that might seem like a pity or a mistake can end up serving an important purpose."

[@ladylemon202]

memento mori🖤🤍 i agree, smeagol wants to be good, he is the good part of himself with everything bad about him being portrayed as Gollum. because he doesn’t really deal with Gollum and instead replaces him with Frodo, it means Gollum is still there and is capable of manipulating parts of Smeagol. basically, in terms of DID i’d say they are co-piloting, with Smeagol being more in control and Gollum being at the back of Smeagols mind but still able to influence decisions they make (such as lying) etc.

[@fightingcorsair7297]

I've been in the graphic design industry for almost 30 years. Thank you for commenting that actual artists are doing the work. I can't stand "Photoshop" being used as a verb. Computers are just one of the tools at our disposal. No one says "I'll just oven a cake."

[@Crazael]

14:00 It should be noted that Smeagol didn't quite exile himself. He thought he was being shunned by everyone in the village because he didn't know the ring made him invisible. So, when he went home to show everyone his new ring, no one acknowledged him. 16:34 My favorite part of that is the way Smeagol says the line and his little head tilt. It's just so perfect.

[@TestaRosssa_]

So interesting that I struggle with dissociation but not dissociative identity disorder. So it's very interesting to see what could've happened to me. My heart goes out to all who suffer with this 💖 you are loved

[@kimberlyluttenbacher1475]

Absolutely awesome. I love your channel! LOTR is one of my favorites, and to see this compassionate analysis of Gollum/Smeagol was wonderful. And your impressions of Smeagol/Gollum were spot. on. Fantastic.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Wow, thank you!

[@hannahbradshaw2186]

I love how the pupils are smaller when it's Gollum talking vs bigger with Smeagol. Such a nice detail 👌

[@loonar7960]

As far as the CG aging goes, Gollum is only just now showing cracks in my opinion. I never saw it until my most recent watch last year. It held up for nearly 20 years for me.

[@thesaintzor625]

We are a simple man, we see Smeagol, we clicks it precious.

[@FabalociousDee]

I don't know why, but I laughed at this. 😄

[@SlightlySusan]

When Martin Freeman played Dr. Watson in Sherlock, there was a scene in which Watson was supposed to express two emotions because Sherlock praised him. I think one was surprise and the other gratitude. Without words, Martin delivered both facial expressions. Brilliant.

[@RayneSaltair]

My therapist has told me a bunch of times that he's surprised at how well I've handled all of the terrible things I've been through. I have CPTSD, depression, anxiety, and enough medical conditions that I'm considered perm disabled. I don't like or trust people. Those who have a alter I hope you feel safe and protected. Hope you find whatever it is in life you and all your alters want. Much joy and love to you.

[@buggieboss2899]

Hugs to you. I don’t know how you feel about prayers, but I’m sending some your way. May you be blessed with a renewed faith in humanity, a new joy in yourself, a greater capacity to notice happy moments and enjoy them, and a wonderful support system to help you do this. 💖 and my alters and I thank you for being so kind.

[@RayneSaltair]

@@buggieboss2899 Thank you for the prayers, you and your alters have made my night.

[@PlehAP]

On mental health, I always thought Gollum was some amount of commentary on drug addiction, with the Ring being his drug of choice. A little surprised that didn't come up here. On the movie side, my favorite bit of trivia about Gollum is that the CGI artists stepped back and handed the controls to the make up artists, just showing them how the tools worked and trusting them to know how to make the colors work, which of course they did, these are some of the best makeup and costume artists of our time

[@orandor6249]

This is why I love "The Two Towers" the most out of all three films - It was the most character focused. That scene between Smeagol and Gollum was what truly made Smeagol a tragic character for me, especially after what happens in the forbidden pool later.

[@LifeIsScrumptious]

I cry for Smeagol in that Forbidden Pool scene. You get a glimmer of hope for him...then that perceived betrayal crushes that moment.

[@CasualOddities]

It's a bit more tragic with Smeagol and Deagol. They were cousins and best friends.

[@thebluerobinett2436]

Very true. I was little bitty when all 3 movies came out. And probably 7 or 8 when I got the third movie LOTR. The opening scene of the third one I’d Always skip for years because it scared me as a little kid, with it’s horror elements until I was about 12 or 13. Andy Serkis is a wonderfully talented actor with a great director of Peter Jackson at the helm, and together made a fantastic ultimate trilogy of movies!

[@ideasinthegord3915]

I havent seen such a compassionate look at DID from this angle ever! Truly it is one of the most stigmatized illnesses out there and I'm so glad for the understanding and compassion this video both has and will inspire in others!

[@Pa5an1]

It’s so amazing to look back at how they brought Gollum to life almost 20 years later. I remember, shortly before the movie came out, how every magazine talked about how groundbreaking the motion capture was and it was the main thing everyone talked about. And now all these years later mocap is so common and made huge progress, but Gollum still looks amazing and holds up very well. I don’t think he looked that much better in the Hobbit (I’m not too fond of how much CGI they used in those, they look so sterile)

[@hahahahahaha9026]

Please please please do the psychology of Midsommar - I think that'd be fascinating and you two would do it so well ❤️❤️

[@elsakristina2689]

YES! And “Hereditary” too.

[@FREAKOFNATURE-mb8oo]

Yesssss

[@jobmeems365]

"they deserve compassion, understanding leads to compassion, compassion leads to healing" take that palatine!

[@0racle.sunrise3570]

LOL (I mean, Yoda said the opposite phrase, but you probably meant that Yoda should've also taught Anakin that... IDK)

[@uncreative5766]

@@0racle.sunrise3570 At the same time, the fact that Yoda told Anakin in Episode 3 not to mourn and miss friends when they pass was demonstrative of the Jedi's hubris. They had led themselves to believe that because the Sith hadn't been present for a millennium that the light side of the Force had prevailed, and all their preconceived notions and theories were all the ultimate answer. Yoda was in some ways a product of that hubris.

[@Schoolgirl325]

@@0racle.sunrise3570 Yoda taught his recruits to not feel guilty about quickly murdering and/or leaving behind any enemies or innocents who got in the way of serving the “greater good” of the middle class and upper class elite of the Republic. Meanwhile, he ran the Jedi Order like a dictatorial cult by deliberately cutting off his recruits opportunities to safely escape from them, taught them to deny their emotions entirely, and enabled and made his recruits do the biddings of a blatantly corrupt and hypocritical Republic that condoned/enabled slavery on the outer rims. Then, Yoda wonders why one of the very few recruits he took in from physical slavery and oppression on a planet on the outer rims that the Republic he served did nothing to help and condoned slavery on in which healthy emotional support from family and friends were his only reprieve, became angry, disillusioned by “democracy,” scared, emotionally/mentally unstable, and turned to the dark side 14 years after he brought him in. It’s why I really felt no sympathy for Yoda after Anakin went dark. It doesn’t mean that Anakin’s entirely innocent, completely undeserving of punishment for his crimes, or that the entire Jedi Order deserved mass murder. However, Yoda was the head of the Jedi Order with the most power to change things for the better, but he never did. It literally took Order 66 happening, Anakin going dark, Luke telling off Yoda and Obi Wan for their bs, and Yoda randomly dying 900+ years later for a change for the better to ultimately happen.

[@masonjenks7636]

Wow the Internet Dads Impressions of Smeagol/Gollum is spot on. This video is also very informative because I never know his psychology.

[@Valeska687]

Everyone always trashes on Jar Jar, but I absolutely love him. He was quarky, provided comic relief, kind harted, and while not the brightest crayon in the box and quite cowardly, he always did what he thought was right and stood by his friends.

[@magdalenaberankova7026]

Dear Jonno, Alan and the crew of CT, I want to thank you for what you're doing and how you do it. My dram since I was little has been to become a therapist. The way you think and talk about things helped me to know myself better and this is what my idea of a good therapist looks like. I haven't started any training yet, but you gave me motivation to keep going after my dream. Thank you

[@nettaboyar9870]

Andy Serkis is one of the best actors to ever exist (in my opinion of course). Also I couldn't agree more with what you said about Martin Freeman. Thank you for making videos about LOTR, they are my favorite movies too!

[@FATE522]

I so can't wait for the hero therapy of Samwise Gamgee. While I don't believe he is the only hero of the story (,because to me every member of the fellowship are the heroes of the story), he remains my favorite good character in The Lord of the Rings trilogy.

[@FATE522]

@Royal Exodus oh! I'll definitely look into that then :)

[@thoushaltremain]

I beg to differ on one thing guys: Sam IS compassionate with Smeagol/Gollum. He gives him several chances for Frodo's sake, despite not trusting him. It is when Gollum finally reveals his true intentions and Frodo is out of the way that Sam seriously considers finally killing him, but doesn't. He knew all along, but finally felt empathy for Smeagol, who suffers from The One Ring addiction. I may just be biased because Sam is my favorite character.

[@Liteweaver301]

I agree. While he's still wary of smeagol, he's a lot nicer to him before faramir captures them. Sam even tells him "no hard feelings" when they leave osgiliath.

[@thoushaltremain]

@@Liteweaver301 Exactly! That's another great instance!

[@siggilinde5623]

And Sam never beat the sh... out of him. Not in the books at least...

[@mschrisfrank2420]

Book Sam is my favorite character. Movie Sam, on the other hand, is too harsh and close minded for me.

[@BankruptMonkey]

I would argue that the ring's polluting influence creating Gollum makes this more like addiction, because DID is where the internal self shatters and Gollum is partially or largely that external influence. So the difference between Gollum and Smeagol is like when you're sober vs when you are on a drug fueled rampage.

[@themurdernerd]

Andy Sirkis has said he based his portrayal on a heroin addict. That came across to me 100%.

[@Catpuff818]

At first I couldn't tell if Jonathan was doing an impression of Smeagel or they had just edited his audio in post. Holy cow John! That's one hell of an impression!

[@jaimemcgrath5766]

Y’all’s videos have helped me so much. I haven’t been able to go back to therapy for financial reasons and your videos really help me. Not only are they therapeutic, but also can be funny and easy to connect to. Thank your for your hard work.

[@trinaq]

Me too, this channel is so therapeutic, and educational, and I love getting some psychological insight into my favourite films and TV shows.

[@samiam2088]

Same

[@grazareth]

I like Jonathan's parsing of pity/compassion. It's something a lot of first time readers of Tolkien particularly misunderstand because of how English changed within the last 60 years or so. Tolkien uses the word "pity", a lot. Like a lot, a lot. But when he wrote the Lord of the Rings (and especially if you go back to Middle and Old English, which is what Tolkien based much of his modern English style on) the word pity didn't yet have that connotation of being arrogant, looking down on someone. For all intents and purposes Tolkien means "compassion", "empathy" whenever he writes about pity.

[@lucyandecember2843]

o.o

[@Merlijn1994]

The thing that really struck me about 'oh wow language has changed a lot' was that Tolkien calls just about everything and everyone gay, with none of the current meaning of the word. Took some getting used to while reading

[@pineddew]

pan pride!

[@arthurspils2565]

Something I've always enjoyed as a small detail across the films is the pupils of his eyes switching from pinpoints as Gollum and larger/ normal sized when he's Smeagol

[@mikeyangel420]

I was misdiagnosed with MPD when in fact what I was experiencing was DID. The attention to detail is really important when differentiating the two. Thank you for the thorough explanation.

[@Evoker23-lx8mb]

What’s the difference? Isn’t MPD just the old term for it, similar to how STDs are now called STIs?