Vintage vs Modern Synths // SEQUENTIAL TAKE 5 up against the Prophet 600

[@JorbLovesGear]

I was looking for a good deal on a prophet 600 to make this exact point. No need anymore! Great work

[@JasonCline]

Because it's already been done or because the price of the Prophet 600 just went up?

[@JorbLovesGear]

@@JasonCline because it's done better than I could 😅

[@cortical1]

Great comparison video--thanks! Salutations from Carlsbad, California!

[@yukio_2022]

The legendary instrument prophet-600. I was able to recognize again that the sound was wonderful. thank you!

[@skrapadelix]

Thanks for a great video that really shows the infamous "Curtis sizzle" in the P600 filter. Love it or hate it, it gives the P600 an edgy, metallic flavour with weird gnarly harmonics that sounds almost like reverb at times. The whole synth has a sort of cold sci-fi Drexciya vibe, very edgy for a VCO poly synth. The Take 5 is an amazing package and considerably more versatile - I was surprised how good the basic VCOs sound.

[@StarskyCarr]

Don't get me wrong.. I really like the P600, but when they're both sitting next to each other, the T5 feels much more stable, less clunky and easier to use in general. Im going to take a deeper look at the P600.. so any pointers to tips and tricks are welcomed :)

[@jimmygray3452]

@@StarskyCarr Kinda wish there was a capacitor mod we could do for the Take 5 to brighten up the filter, similar to the Prophet 5 rev 4 :)

[@paultp12cora24]

I Like The Take 5 Better Sound Warmer Then The 600

[@keithmurray9241]

Resale value on the vintage equipment goes up though... they hold their value better than new equipment. That said, the newer equipment is clearly far more versatile and powerful. Great demo as always!! Do you know of a good video 'explainer' that walks through the Prophet 600 architecture? I know it's not that complicated of a synth but I've yet to find one that really details how the poly-mod section and sync source/clock settings work.

[@matrix12x]

very cool comparison

[@autoy]

I have to admit I was expecting to like the Take 5 without much doubt but the opposite happened. Of course the Take 5 has that modern scooped sound with good highs and lows despite the stylistic choice of filter roll off, but sadly lacking in the mids. Comparatively, P600 sounds more exciting, misbehaved in a good way at times, and the filter is so much better! Gligli seems to address all the old laggy behavior. Keep in mind the P600 has always been regarded in the mid-low tier of classic analogs, yet continues to compare favorably against some of the best current analogs.

[@ShaunCymruDS8]

Great comparison again Mr S,, thank you! I’m warming more and more to the T5. So go on, give us all an update as to where you are with either keeping the T5 or P6 ? :)

[@StarskyCarr]

Well I’ve still got them both… but just can’t keep the 2 of them. It’s that close between them tbh. I’m attached to my P6 but I’ve got a P10 so maybe sell them both! 🤦‍♂️

[@thomvsse]

@@StarskyCarr which did we manage to keep? A Brubeck Take 5, or a proper Prophet 6?

[@StarskyCarr]

@@thomvsse still got them all... haha .. just not got round to sorting myself out.

[@TobyBorrow]

Nice comparison, the stepping filter 600

[@jdanielcramer]

Great comparison, really shows the Take Five as being good value but I’m confused by the way you describe the filter cutoff 🤔 what do you mean when you say the filter only opens up to the ‘Fundamental’ (I refer to the Fundamental as being the first partial or lowest harmonic)

[@StarskyCarr]

Volume wise it only goes as loud as the fundamental.. whereas other more resonant filters will be 3x the volume. I realised it wasn’t that clear when I edited it so have been expecting this question 😀

[@jdanielcramer]

@@StarskyCarr ah yes, of course! Silly me, I was thinking freq, not gain! Thanks for the quick reply, love your vids! 😻

[@SacSynths_Jack_Z]

Press the tune button on the P600! (also the one I'd keep)

[@StarskyCarr]

Haha good idea!

[@SacSynths_Jack_Z]

@@StarskyCarr 😆

[@digitaldiezel5870]

I would always go with the new synth over the old synth. Especially if they sound this similar. Too many basic features that could be lost on the older hardware. Plus money for inevitable maintenance.

[@lundsweden]

Yeah, things do go ka-boom eventually!

[@rhill109]

I had a 600 in the early 90's that was given to me by a friend who thought it was worthless at the time. I remember it sounded great. However, being an extremely early midi device, it only responded in omni mode. Now that's a bummer if you want to sequence it with your other gear. I did use it in overdubs with SMPTE sync in the studio but it was a pain in the ass. The power supply died in the late 90's and I sold it on ebay for parts. I really haven't lost any sleep over it. Mr. Carr, in your opinion, would it be better to save my money for a desktop Prophet 5 or go ahead and get the Take 5?

[@StarskyCarr]

I’d get the T5 while you’re saving for the P5. It might reduce your GAS. And if not you’ll have something to play sooner and won’t lose too much when you sell it. I see things like that as hiring the T5 for £2 a week for a couple of years. Well worth it considering the cost of plug-in subscriptions 😉

[@xntricity6446]

@@StarskyCarr For 600euro more it might be worth going all out and getting the prophet 10 desktop. Had a look and the latest firmware update for P10 is a game changer. I'm struggling to decide on T5 vs P5/P10 as huge price variation however it does end the Gas I think. Having a mono output on the prophets is kinda mad as the T5 has stereo, I'll have to save hard regardless.

[@killswitchmediastudios]

I may have overpaid for my P600, and it was worth every dime. Having the sound and the history is worth the price to me.

[@lowlifehitech]

When doing open filter sounds on the Take 5 I recommend turning the resonance up, it offsets the high frequency rolloff a bit. And if you want the filter resonance to get louder in comparison to the oscillators you can just drop the oscillator volume. It definitely never gets as aggressive as the P600 though.

[@StarskyCarr]

Thanks… but small tweaks and as you say in the end it can’t di the same as the P600 etc. But for me it’s not an issue tbh. It still a great sounding synth. A shame it doesn’t go brighter… but I’ve bought it so .. 😀

[@DestroyER82]

Without hesitating I would go for P600, so much more interesting tone than Take 5. Subjective taste, but thats how it feel for me. Anyways... Might be really interesting. Put P600 against your P5 rev.4.

[@StarskyCarr]

I’ve mentioned this in a few comments… but the actual experience of playing the 600 isn’t great. The envelopes are a bit unpredictable and it just feels sluggish… like it needs a firmware update. It’s something I’ve not managed to capture in a video yet. … and of course 600 vs 5 has to happen!!

[@DestroyER82]

@@StarskyCarr Of course, you cannot "cheat" the resolution of vintage D/A converter that produces voltage for envelopes, it was nicely heard in your demo. Dry and solo its apparent, but in full production / mixdown and with reverb, it doesnt matter anymore. There is probably need of overall calibration for your piece, but thats part of dealing with vintage stuff and you are doing good job reminding that often for those who arent familiar with old gear. And yeaaah, looking forward to 600 vs 5, really intested how close they are in their tone and sound.

[@AllureMusicLab]

P600 ! Without a doubt ! Thanks for the Video 👍👍👍

[@StarskyCarr]

I’m editing a P600 review at the mo. Keep an eye out maybe Sunday:)

[@wrmusic8736]

I have a strong impression that Take 5 was Sequential's preemptive strike against upcoming Behringer's analog polys (Prophet 5 clone in particular) - but done in a rather questionable way. It's almost as if Dave and the team thought - let's do a cheap Prophet 5 by actually gutting its hardware in every way imaginable... through software. Lack of high frequencies, gutted resonance on an SSI filter (of all things), Osc 2 getting slashed if you do FM, etc. Chips inside can clearly do much better, Sequential just won't let them - so people just won't suddenly stop buying Prophet 5 and 6. Yes - that's still competition, just not a very good competition.

[@StarskyCarr]

That’s an interesting point. I wonder if B make a prophet copy the Take 5 might get some updates? Especially if the chips aren’t being used to the max. Sequential have always been very good at not overlapping functionality, so it’s no surprise to me that this isn’t tackling the P5 or P6 head on. With an extra voice and an option for a pure analog signal path? Someone has mentioned that the filter behaves like this to avoid aliasing via the FX. As the VCA is digital as well the sound must go into the digital domain before output. So makes sense why it hits a brick wall at 18k. My microwave. t does the same - but that’s a digital filter of course.

[@wrmusic8736]

@@StarskyCarr I doubt it was to avoid aliasing as in modern day and age you can avoid it by just oversampling and it will cost nothing in terms of performance. After all the signal converted by ADC stage is not aliased. It's the digital processing at "stock" frequency like 44.1/48KHz that does it when you actually start getting inevitable low precision errors from digital FX when they are constrained by so few values (44100 as opposed to say 192000). Even cheap ARM CPUs can easily do oversampling these days and not break a sweat. And remember - Prophet 6 and OB-6 also run their filters through a digital chain when FX are on - no aliasing whatsoever.

[@StarskyCarr]

@@wrmusic8736 yeah… I’d not really thought it through tbh except that it reduced stress on the processors. But I’ve no idea how oversampling is handled by the CPUs on this. So I’m still non the wiser as to why the filter is limited to 18k.

[@wrmusic8736]

​@ghost mall Possibly. Possibly SSI filter from P5 Rev4 just didn't like being sold in a $1200 synth and refused to do its maximum resonance. Analog hardware can be temperamental like that.

[@chakko007]

Bit underwhelmed about the sound in comparison as well. The Take 5 strikes me as a rather weak synth in their portfolio.

[@geevee7823]

Let's see in a few years time which would have been the most sensible choice cash wise.

[@skrapadelix]

The modern Sequential synths tend to hold their price quite well so should be a fair investment but I'm always surprised for just how little the P600 goes compared to it's original competitor, the Jupiter 6. This is strange given that the P600 uses the same synth engine as the Sequential T8 with a lot of overlap with the P5 Rev 3. For me, the P600 remains one of the last true vintage bargains and has a unique voice.

[@mr.irrelevant3588]

yes one will go up in value and one will go down in value.

[@StarskyCarr]

Yeah.. cash wise a vintage is more likely to hold its value (as long as something doesn’t die on it! In which case there’s maintenance and repair to consider). But as a tool for making music the Take 5 wins hands down. Unless you’re after specific tones from the 600 (nothing wrong with that) the T5 can do so much more. There’s something that’s hard to get over in the videos as well. I might attempt to do something on this… but the P600 is a bit unpredictable and hard to dial in tones in some cases.. plus the envelopes are really noticeable. It’s not the slick experiences you get from a 106 for example.

[@fjfrancois]

I miss my P600 ;( Damn the P600 sounds richer.

[@StarskyCarr]

I prefer the sound, but it just feels a bit clunky and worryingly unstable (even if its not done anything too bad yet!). The envelopes in particular do odd things every now and then.. like not starting from zero. I think it tends to happen when I first use it - maybe it resets after that. But I need more time to grow in confidence with it. Whereas the T5 is predictable, if a bit confusing with the FM setup.

[@fjfrancois]

@@StarskyCarr 😊

[@timbuk1126]

I liked the Take 5.

[@borgzapper6252]

So does this video mean behringer is finally releasing their version?

[@StarskyCarr]

Oh yeah… I’ll definitely keep hold of the p600 for a little while longer ;)

[@payt01]

I don't think Behringer are about to release anything as long as the chip shortage is a thing

[@StarskyCarr]

@@payt01 I think you're probably right.

[@juno6]

The Prophet 600 sounds so much better. I even prefer the 600 to the Prophet 5.

[@skrapadelix]

I completely agree. The Prophet 5 sounds beautiful but polite and overfamiliar whereas the 600 is not of this world.

[@juno6]

@@skrapadelix indeed!

[@StarskyCarr]

Except… and this is something I never considered before buying it… people do mention the envelopes a lot and I thought they were just nit picking. But the experience of programming and playing it is nowhere near the P5. The envelopes are just a bit rubbish and at times unpredictable.. sometimes they jump and do odd things. If it was a new release you’d be waiting for a firmware upgrade to make everything a bit smoother and more pro. It does sound nice, no complaints there whatsoever, but the overall experience is much more clunky than my 106, Polysix, P5, P6, Juno2 and JP6. Just name checking a few vintage polys I’ve got here as they all feel slicker and smoother … not showing off honest… and defo not trying to prove I’ve got loads so know more than anyone else… 😂 just something I’d not considered, probably because it’s not an issue with any of the others.

[@juno6]

@@StarskyCarrthat's strange, I also have the gligli on mine and it's really smooth. The envelopes are punchy, the new cpu allows analogue-like speeds and curves, as well as resolution (on the original OS you could hear steps on the envs and lfos). I also have lots of synths/samplers (near 110!), and still the 600 is one of my favourites.

[@suffpapst]

you are right!

[@himalayanvoices2158]

I had an p600 that would not stay in tune for love or money, had to get rid of it. Sounds much better to my ears than the t5, which sounds tubby in comparison. Some people may think that is good, as it punches through better. P600 wins on sound, loses on convenience.

[@StarskyCarr]

Yeah… nicely summed up!

[@lundsweden]

I'd take the Pro-800, lol

[@nilsvanderplancken]

nice comparison as always, and I love your video's, but I can not believe you recommend the take 5 over a prophet 600 :) ...1200 for a prophet 6 is an absolute steal... the only reason why they went back sub 2000 is because a Behringer pro 800 is on it's way, when it has come out the price will go up again as is always the case. Take 5 is a toy in comparison, such a dull sound like a mediocre vst... 8:40 says it all, this is comparing a very fine wine with lemonade.

[@StarskyCarr]

I hear what you’re saying… just as an overall tool, value for money, convenience etc I think the T5 has it. Sonically the P600 has a better raw tone. From a collectors perspective or if you’re looking for that tone then yeah the P600 but in balance the T5 is just a more useful to. Hard for me to say it as I’m fond of the P600. But for 2 similarly priced sequential synths I think it a an interesting investigation.

[@payt01]

I really love it when synths have that sparkly sizzly high end, so I guess the Take 5 isn't for me :)

[@LASERLine.Brasil]

You are absolutely right! All you can wish for in a synthesizer is a not limited response in high frequencies. If you will filter something, it's always better to have a rich source of harmonics. Smoothness is something that must be achievable thru the filter.

[@deadscenedotcom]

I see aliasing in the original (during the square wave OSC comparison). The newer one avoids this with the filter. I take this as an attempt to make the newer one more analog sounding by avoiding aliasing. (Read comments for update. Aliasing is most likely introduced during A/D conversion while the original square OSC is true analog.)

[@StarskyCarr]

That’s not aliasing… it’s all analog so there’s no way it could be aliasing. They are VCOs going through all analog signal path. The envelopes are digital, which is what I point might with the smoothness if the envelopes. But they only modulate the level of the tone or the cutoff frequency. They can’t add digital artifacts. What you’re seeing there is the odd harmonics creeping in when it’s not set at a perfect square. If the knob is off by a degree or 2 they creep in. Aliasing would be at non-related frequencies and result in additional noticeable tones creeping in. With this the pots probably need recalibrating to get the prefect 50% pulse… or maybe I’ve not dialled it in precisely enough. It’s hard to get it exactly 50%

[@deadscenedotcom]

@@StarskyCarr, sure looked like it was bouncing off the nyquist and back down in Logic. Perhaps something to do with the A/D conversion then? Are you recording at 96 or 44.1?

[@johnnyraphaell]

@@deadscenedotcom "bouncing down" is only possible when you digitally create harmonics in the box with saturation, compressors, vst synths, audio rate modulation ect and the frequencies you generated (over Niquist) fold back into the audible spectrum. (For that you have oversampling in your plugs- hopefully) ->Does never matter in which samplerate you record. It cannot fold back while doing AD Conversation. Because the convertor has a steep filter to avoid that.

[@newking70]

In a blind test, I doubt 99% of people wouldn't be able to hear the difference.

[@funkmachine6420]

The T5 sounds very bitey and not thst pleasant compared to the 600

[@brettlarson3504]

The Prophet 600 is alive, Take 5 sounds like every other modern synth, software is way cheaper if that’s what you’re after. The fact that the modern one gets the recommendation does not concord with what happened soundwise in the video. Even Starsky liked the 600 more often than the Take 5 and then at the end the Take 5 is the sensible option? Then comes the promotional info about buying the Take 5 at Perfect Circuit and suddenly I feel like this video is actually an advertisement and not a fair comparison? I have always loved Starsky’s videos and his vibe and all the work he puts in but lately I feel like his mouth is not agreeing with his ears!

[@StarskyCarr]

It’s definitely the ‘sensible’ option. Most people won’t want the hassle of the older synth. Bad keyboard, slow responses, low resolution, dodgy membrane buttons. Maintenance costs. All in all the Take 5 wins. Sound wise the P600 pips it in terms of raw tones.. but overall the Take 5 makes more sense to most, especially if your gigging it. There’s more to it than the just pure sonics. If the P600 was the price it was 5 years ago then it’d be a different story, but as it’s was £193 more I stand by my conclusion. If you can find one for £600 though… :) Fwiw I’ve only ever earned enough to buy a couple of coffees per month from the links … definitely not an advert. But everything helps. It costs a fair bit to run the channel - buying and selling synths.. I bought the synth myself with my own cash btw.

[@nilsvanderplancken]

I sold my prophet 600 when getting a prophet 5 rev 2 which was a gem, but it had technical issues, got a rev 3 but tuning on mine was unstable and it wasn't as nice as the rev 2. Tried a rev 4 in the stores, it's not even close, didn't interest me one bit. I took a matrix 1000 with me to compare some basic patches, raw osc/filter sound and it blew the prophet 10 away. All these new synths lack character. There's something muddy in the tone, voices don't blend as well as on the vintage models. Take 5 will be 500 buck on the second hand website in a year or two, prophet 600 will be +3000 like a juno-60, which is only correct in my opinion. Modern synths are great for gigging, but the best modern vsts just sound better. Using the prophet 10 rev 4 in the store as a controller for my matrix 1000 was magical. With some more prophet-like patches it felt like I was playing my rev 3 again, having a nice interface is super inspiring. but when I turned back to the sound of the rev 4... this prophet 600 is a better buy. Take 5 is an expensive vst, don't care it is analog.

[@suffpapst]

FM is a complete fail on the Take 5. The 600 sounds better in every respect.

[@christdolphin69]

no way the fm rules on the Take-5. could be better i guess but its pretty musical, i use it on almost every patch

[@VincentPresley]

The Take 5 does some cool things but I just can’t get past how ugly it is. I want to like it but I look at it and want nothing to do with it.

[@orbitfold]

The dullness of take 5 is kinda bugging me

[@AlainHubert]

Take 5 is rubbish. Not enough keys, not enough high end content, not enough life. Given the choice, I'd go with the 600 (with Gligli mod of course).

[@RoHen-pw5ol]

I think we can have our preferences and tastes without having to call an instrument "rubbish". It's clearly not