Vinyl Record Sales Could Be In Trouble

Vinyl record sales continues to climb. Luminate is one of the major data collection companies that report on vinyl record sales, as well as digital and streaming media. Their data drives the Billboard charts, and the industry depends on the accurate reporting of this data. In October 2023, Luminate announced a change in how they would report vinyl record sales in 2024. It might not be a good thing.
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Written & Produced by Rick Coste
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[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Please tap LIKE and SUBSCRIBE ❤ If you'd like to help support the channel, please visit the shop: www.amazon.com/shop/thejoyofvinylrecords Lots of great things coming up with the show. Thank you for being here!

[@alanrogs3990]

$1 billion dollars but $900,000,000 of it was off center or warped.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

😂😂😂

[@alanrogs3990]

@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I forgot to add the last set of 000's

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

☺️

[@doodahdavesrecords4319]

What about cash transactions?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@doodahdavesrecords4319 Good point. Special Point of Sale equipment would need to be provided to capture that.

[@carminedesanto6746]

GM ☕️ The problem with the vinyl revival…is that they’re ( big box or big online retailers) charging premium prices for dubious quality vinyl. Also ..yes, you can get a decent turntable for not a lot of money. So now there’s a conundrum..you can get the hardware “cheap” but the software is expensive…..and don’t get me started on Reel to Reel🤦‍♂️ 10:01 units shipped vs units sold..you’re correct..without proper accounting..what are you dealing with. The best of the Christmas 🎄 season to you and yours.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Agree wholeheartedly on the dubious quality. Coincidentally, a friend of mine texted me last night that he purchased a new record from one of those box stores and it was warped.

[@NoEgg4u]

I disagree, in a way, that the quality of new vinyl is dubious. I have found it less than dubious. ☹ I will never purchase another new pressing, as 100% of the new pressings I have purchased have no life in the grooves. I suspect that the vinyl formulation has been changed to reduce surface noise, which works (for that purpose). But it does that at the cost of sucking the life out of the music. With a properly dialed in turntable, and a clean record, there is almost no surface noise. But people generally do not properly dial in their turntables, and so the pressing plants are applying a fix, via dead sounding vinyl. I gave up on new vinyl nearly 10 years ago. So I am not aware if this has changed. If anyone discovers that new vinyl no longer sounds lifeless, please chime in.

[@briandeeley1599]

I bought an early reissue of Miles Davis Kind of Blue and there was cardboard molded into the pressing! 😡🤬@@TheJoyofVinylRecords

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@NoEgg4u I think it depends on the pressing to be honest. Neil's new stuff sounds great but there have been quality issues with the pressings themselves. I encountered a hiss with two separate newly pressed records. Must be from the pressing plant his company uses (or Reprise). Either way - the mastering is stellar - not so much the vinyl. I also have a theory about static and 180g vinyl records that I'm researching right now.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@briandeeley1599 😳😳😳😳

[@GastonBulbous]

I worked in record stores in the 90s, including as a buyer, and in those days, Billboard got all its data from distributors and wholesalers. Record store buyers like me determined what new releases were the ones shipped in the greatest quantity and which would therefore top the week's charts. If we overestimated and ordered too many of a new title, we simply wouldn't order as many the second week to restock our retail inventories. We'd still have the first-week oversupply on hand. This would be reflected on the charts if an album debuted in the top 5, for instance, but then plunged to number 20 the second week. Stores buyers had over-estimated the popularity of a title and over-ordered the first week so they wouldn't order any more the second week. In subsequent weeks, adjustments from any returns would further lower sales totals. In the end, Billboard got all the data it needed from quantities being shipped and returned and didn't need actual retail sales figures. Even now, your local independent record store is writing down the title of a record it sells to you so the store's buyer can decide if they want to order more copies of the title, i.e., re-stock it. They are not writing it down so they can report sales directly to any data-gatherer. The change Luminate is making may be to realise they don't need retail sales data from thousands of small stores at all. The handful of distributors nationwide who ship the records out wholesale can give them the data they need, adjusted for returns.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Thanks for weighing in all that Gaston. I really appreciate the information!

[@ESmith-is9es]

When I had a store back in the 90s as a black owner, there was a black publication called "The Urban Network" which was black own as well, we would report to them each month our sales and they would publish it in their magazine with the name of the store and location and Monthly sales. Some of us also had sound scan capabilities.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

That's really cool. Thank you for sharing that!

[@kevinfahey9417]

Skeletone Records is our local shop too! Todd the owner is a great guy...

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Hi Kevin! He is, as is his staff. Todd is always full of great recommendations. He's the one who introduced me to the Interrupters.

[@larsman9169]

Back in. the 70's, when I was in the music business, there were no such things as Luminate. Billboard Magazine would call retailers and wholesalers on the phone, and the person at the retailer or wholesaler (like me!) they dealt with would read off the list of the best selling albums of the week. We Billboard reporters were very popular with the record companies! 👍

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

That's awesome to hear. Thank you for sharing this Lars! The good old days...

[@larsman9169]

You bet, Rick - always happy to regale you with tales of music stuff from the 70's! I used to be a concert photographer here, too.

[@VideoArchiveGuy]

So basically Billboard not getting data because the data provider is too lazy to collect it properly affects the industry how? Billboard and Luminate are taking shortcuts, record sales may "reflect" the distance, and it matters to few if the record companies don't see a corresponding drop in orders.

[@calvinnapier9977]

That's very interesting and it's my first time hearing about Luminate.

[@ThatVinylChannel]

This is something I have been aware of for quite some time. There are reasons why independent record stores do not report to Luminate. On the retail side, it relies solely on the scanning of barcodes. This is why Walmart and Best Buy have no issues since everything they sell is based on a scanned barcode. Most independent record stores and not equipped to scan barcodes. Like you said, many rely on handwritten ledgers still (even though it's 2024). And even, then, they have to make sure they keep their used sales separate from their new sales or it will taint the sales figures. If they scan a used record that was sold new last year, it can look like a new record sale. It was easier when only retailers sold new records and used record stores sold used records. Now, used record stores have morphed into independent record stores and sell a good amount of new records. This is why I applaud stores like Walmart selling vinyl. We NEED their sales figures to show vinyl is worth investing in and continuing to produce.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Completely agree. 😎 Cheers! 🎶

[@greanfinisher4014]

Regardless of how the vinyl record sales are going to be tabulated in the future, it doesn't take a wizard to figure out that those sales are going to continue surging. In the meantime, the remaining obstacle which hinders that growth is the chronic shortage of vinyl pressing plants.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

You are so right. More pressing plants up and running is crucial.

[@WeevBeev]

Pardon my maybe ignorance, but ask vinyl records have a bar code, correct? Couldn’t that be an easy way to count sales?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Not a ignorant question at all. New records do ( *most* new records). Part of the issue is not all small indie stores have bar code readers. My local one doesn't (they still write all sales out manually). The store I visited last weekend in Massachusetts also didn't.

[@mrhoffame]

It seems to me what would be more important at this point is NOT actual sales, but relativity. In other words if this is the system that has been used up to this point in time then stay on this system. That is going to be the best way to see movement up or down in small percent points. I think seeing if overall sales are going up or down relative to the past 5-10 years is more important than knowing that ACTUAL number of sales from just a few places this coming year. That data will literally have no meaning in relation to everything else.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Completely agree. 😎

[@supstersmodelrailways3202]

Hi. Even my second hand record seller writes the artist and album name down. So he knows what to pick up 2nd hand to sell on. Obviously this is for his use only.

[@ericbeck6417]

Yeah probably the best way to track all this would be from the pressing plants. What are their numbers? How many records are the pressing and shipping?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I believe those numbers can come from the RIAA. Unfortunately doesn't equal sales but should be able to indicate how many units in circulation.

[@alanrogs3990]

Maybe not now but back in the day the pressing plants might not want that information released. They were basically pressing money.

[@arzabael]

My friend in my opinion larger managing systems than we can fathom exist and create what civilians believe are grass roots movements with organic outcomes, such as the collective knowledge that “the vinyl record industry has had a booming comeback”, and now, it’s time to tame that back, because vinyl records have been de-prioritized as a means of consumeristic generational value creation that investing class is suppose to take wind of, because a new structure and function is being introduced to the highest level of the new paths of least resistance that will seemingly naturally guide the next decade in the earth market. In a nutshell while it was once deemed that records would overtake a generation along other things it has now been deemed that vinyl records have peaked for the time being and that needs to be cultivated systematically from the top down. For example we are probably done hearing Taylor swifts glowing market making endorsements because she’s not being informed to do so any longer. But that’s just me and I’m clinically insane. 😮❤ in all seriousness this was a great video and you made a fantastic point about the discrepancy between IRAA and Luminate numbers. All I was really saying was that could easily be a deliberately baked in aspect of the market creation of investment products such as pressing plants, which may be non environmentally sound in the eyes of the real managing systems. Wait, there I go again. Back to asylum.

[@NoEgg4u]

Luminate has the figures for both of their standards of reporting. As such, they can report both sets of the numbers, and let the public chew on the figures. I do not see why Luminate should conceal numbers that they have -- unless it is a control or power ego trip. Maybe it is something else?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Looks like they are going ahead with the changes as well. Just saw another statement from both the VRMA and the Vinyl Alliance.

[@neilfisher7999]

It doesn't seem like it should be that complicated to figure units sold from units shipped. With today's technology, I'm surprised this is an issue. Even small local record stores should be able to simply report monthly unit sales from shipments recieved without it taking additional time to do so. It sounds like the process is broken somewhere along the lines. I spent many years working in retail. Even small retailers have to take inventory periodically to see what they've sold and what they need to restock just to function. So this baffles me that there isn't an accurate accounting for units sold of vinyl.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I am as well Neil. Both my local shop and a couple of others in my area write everything down manually, but they also take credit cards. So the data is there. I have a feeling Luminate probably has a feed structure they want to receive the data in (like an xml or some other format), which small indie shops simply don't have the time to support.

[@johnloupis9344]

You're from N.H. right? I'm from the Lebanon area and for me I've been buying used albums. Within a 10 mile radius there are about 4 thousand used albums for sale. I just got back into records after 35 years of going without. I have found a lot of great titles in very good condition in the $8 range. I've bought 1 new album so far simply because of the price being to high on new. I don't feel that a album that was recorded 40 years ago and now being re released should be selling for $25 or more now. Less than $20 would be right. New music should probably be more, like $25-$30. Maybe the situation in other areas is the same? Anyways, for me until the used records in good condition dry up that's where I'll be.

[@sidesup8286]

Obviously lps, especially audiophile lps, are priced according to what they think enough people will still consider paying; not prices based on what they cost to produce. Does that remind you audio high enders of anything?

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Hi John! Yes - I'm in NH - on the seacoast. Are there stores in the Lebanon area you'd recommend. I rarely get up that way but I don't doubt I will at some point.

[@johnloupis9344]

There is a 3 story building on Main Street West Lebanon. A consignment shop store. About 2 thousand in there. Another place just over the border into Vermont about 10 miles away in Quechee Antique's Mall on RT5. Then up in Hanover 6 miles away on Main Street. Mostly 70's stuff. Probably because that was the peak of vinyl sales? @@TheJoyofVinylRecords

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@johnloupis9344 Great to know. Just made note of it - thanks John!

[@johnloupis9344]

Welcome. Thanks for the videos and have a great Christmas.@@TheJoyofVinylRecords

[@sleepisthecousinofdeath7395]

I think the biggest reason is taxes, I pay my local used record store with cash gatta help out ya know 🤣

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Cheers to that 🍺🍺🍺

[@user-ij6tm1np9g]

I should say people are beginning to see the truth.

[@ReasonablySane]

Vinyl records are to turntables what ink cartridges are to ink jet printers. 🤣

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Well said!

[@larrybuzan7687]

What about online shopping sales one would think that figure is a bit short of the true figure

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

It very well may be - I'm not sure how it's reported to be honest.

[@user-ij6tm1np9g]

I think people are beginning to see the truck. It ain't the mid 80's anymore. It's the 3rd decades of the 21st century and vinyl has got expensive and CDs and cassettes are a much better buy.😊

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

🍺🍺🍺

[@illumon8]

If this is that important to Luminate and the industry, why wouldn’t Luminate create a sales order software applet that automatically uploads the data. We are all networked together. It just takes a few programmers to put it all together. This should not be tough to solve.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

I completely agree. I honestly don’t think it would be that difficult. For the last 15 years I’ve been in IT and the last 5 in an Agile environment and I would bet the team of engineers I worked with could come up with a workable solution. The implementation might take some time but it is still doable.

[@danielgeiger7739]

This is a complete red herring story. Manufactures only care what ships out, as shipped merch is paid for by stores. It does not matter whether those records sell in stores. The only thing sales data are good for is marketing to consumers: This is a top selling record, so you should buy it, too. But if we agree that collectors/listeners "should" only buy those records we personally like, then sales data are irrelevant. Either I like it, or I don't, regardless what the rest of the world thinks. Then, as always, follow the money. What's in it for a small record store to gather data? If data are worth something, then data must be purchased from supplier. If the price for data is good enough, then it is worthwhile for seller (indie store) to go through the process. I guess it is pretty clear form the 5% of stores number, that it is not worthwhile for the stores. My local store also has a handwritten list. With newer records, bar codes would be relatively easy to record, with older pre-bar code records, it gets tricky. But those titles are not top 100 anyway, so it does not matter. Simple number of pre-barcode records would be plenty. But I come back to the beginning. I just don't care. I don't think it is relevant to anybody, except to the marketing department of top 100 artists. I generally, I don't find them interesting. Sorry.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

No need to apologize Daniel - all constructive opinions are welcome. Especially yours. I think the real concern is the story the numbers tell. For the last few years there have been many news stories and blog articles about the increase in sales. It does drive sales. Until recently I worked in an office with some young folks who bought their first records out of curiosity - I didn't ask but I assume it's because of the new awareness and occasional media story. If Luminate's new method contradicts that story it will ultimately hurt the industry as a whole.

[@danielgeiger7739]

​@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Interesting angle. But not sure I buy it. One of my millennial co-workers is into 78's with olde gramophone, the works. I don't think there is a lot of advertising or news stories for 78s. There is something in the air, not necessarily news-report driven. If anything, there is a movement away from digital activities. Several of my younger acquaintances do not have any social media accounts. Accordingly, going away from streaming is a logical step. Then the only question is tapes, CD, or vinyl. Also from personal experience, pre-pandemic I got into wood working, and particularly woodturning purely on my own. A couple of years later I learned that there is a new wave of woodturning. I know, n = 1 limitation, but still it is anecdotal data.

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@danielgeiger7739 Most definitely not with 78s (I couldn't play one if I tried - my Thorens only has 2 speeds). But you do have a point with younger folks moving away from digital and embracing "older" technologies. Interesting about the woodworking. Great skill to explore!

[@peakadventures_]

best solution is boycot streaming platforms...won't happen but that would be best solution. physical media forever

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

Cheers 🍻

[@currentphonograph7487]

I think these pathetic margins on new vinyl indicate bigger problems

[@sidesup8286]

If you got a huge lp collection, maybe I could see upgrading equipment. Hearing all your cherished lps in more glorious sound is nice. But those just starting out, and after they spend a load of money on equipment; can you even imagine someone saying to themselves; "I can get cds for $5 if I go cd player, if I go turntable and lps it will be $35 per title. I think I'll go lp."

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

They are unreal - especially with some pressings.

[@sidesup8286]

In essence I think the choice for the lp companies is; do we reap bigger profits now, but sort of lessen the future as the high prices of lps will definitely steer millions of people toward cd, and high quality streaming. Remember for all practical purposes, a USED CD, even one with some scratches, is the equivelent of a spanking brand new LP. The cd even with scratches, 90% of the time will not have even one moment of noise. The lp, even without scratches and brand new, will have some noise. I haven't played lps in a while, but when I do re-vist lp-ville, it will be interesting to hear if Lps still have any special qualities that cds don't, played back on great cd playing equipment. My cd player's sound quality has near doubled since summer, due to some great mods. Getting rid of glare was my favorite improvement of. Cds all of a sudden got a whole lot more likeable

[@TheJoyofVinylRecords]

@@sidesup8286 Dumb question on my part but what did the reduction of glare do?

[@sidesup8286]

The reduction of glare made it sound much more like analog and less electronicy. Much more natural sounding, like you weren't having to listen through an annoying electronic haze..Hearing the music without phony electronic artifacrts makes all the difference in the world. Much increased tonal beauty on acoustical music and even other music. As I said, I haven't had my turntable hooked up for going on at least a year. But I do know that the sound I have now is the best sound I ever had. Maybe when I re-visit vinyl playing, there will be something I like better about the sound, but the overall sound quality will not be to this level. If it was ever anything near this good; I'd have remembered it. It's now a whole new level of playback sound quality.

[@Ni5ei]

Don't worry, Taylor Swift's new album will make up for all the lost vinyl sales for 2024 you're talking about. I'm certain she's gonna set a new record with 5 different versions 😎😉

[@lionheartroar3104]

"Vinyl Record Sales Could Be In Trouble",....good, it makes no sense to buy records.

[@perlman7376]

I don't miss the "pops and clicks" and never thought the "ritual of vinyl" was anything more than a huge PITA.

[@alanrogs3990]

I understand your thinking, especially new artists, since most of those will be digitally sourced. But I find on older artist with their original pressings sound better due to the mastering of the time. It's not always true but I think it's enough to be interested in buy vinyl. For you to say "good" seems strange. Does it bother you that people enjoy records?

[@peterrichards9468]

Records are great give me more