Why Listen To Challenging Music? A Vinyl Rewind Ramble

[@happycamperds9917]

Half the beauty of Trout Mask is that you never really know if you genuinely enjoy the album or were gaslit into enjoying it, by the community, by the artist's, and by yourself.

[@lucasartscrafts6023]

As A.I. makes more inroads into artistic spaces, these challenging(idiosyncratic) creations will become more and more valuable to listeners.

[@nickspann20]

As someone who is just getting into Jazz I think what is important is context of whatever you’re listening to. I try to figure out what the artist wants you to take from they’re music.

[@michaelmoraga2926]

Agreed. I don't listen to John Coltrane's "Ascension", or even "A Love Supreme" very often (like I do "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis. . . on repeat!), but when I do... not only does it embody whatever mood I am in, but it transcends it

[@jazzpunk]

ASCENSION is a once per year "treat". :-)

[@Bogeyman19DidNotScareMyAss]

*their

[@sirfizz6518]

A lot of times there's no particular intent...cuz there can be anything from an explicit sociopolitical motive to intuitive, perhaps even unintentional contribution to a cultural musical dialogue going on a zeitgeist or just a local scene...but ultimately there's just the creative impulse that can have any purpose or none at all. I'm finding my own voice right now, and sometimes in considering what I'm going for and not really finding an answer, I recall countless interviews in which the interviewer confidently misapprehended an artist's angle, sometimes with their being none to begin with. So first and foremost go in with as little expectation or pretense as you can to just let the art (not just for music) hit you as it will, then if it feels like you're disconnecting is the time to try things like taking on the artist's perspective, learning about cultural context etc. But a lot of times artists aren't particularly high-minded in our approaches, rather we're really just following our creative impulse and seeing what emerges. The result can be as mysterious to us as it can to the audience.

[@hornyconvict]

bingo

[@shred5]

I used to see weird music more like you do. I could appreciate the work that went into it, but over the years I played enough three chord songs and wore them out so music like Zappa, Beefheart, King Crimson became more every day listening material.

[@blankfrank2907]

If you haven't already, you need to check out The Residents (especially their 70s output), Later Scott Walker, and Glenn Branca's The Ascension.

[@Jeremyak]

Challenging music has to be listened to several times before you will be able to get into it. I find personally, the songs i really dig the first listen will be completely played out after a dozen or so times while a song I didn't know what to think of on the first play might still be getting better on the 100th listen. Zappa has a massive catalog and it sounds like you barely scratched the surface of what Frank has to offer, there's a massive payout for the dedicated Zappa fan because his stuff is so layered that it's going to be really tough to play it out, you'll get something new out of it every single time.

[@Alex-io6ky]

good reply on zappa ..takes time for some to get it or not get it but i for one got it straight away when i was 14 years old and that was that

[@terrywachter]

Swans have been riding this subject for ages, The Seer is a tough listen, but is endlessly evocative and beautiful.

[@EclecticoIconoclasta]

Swans is sort of difficult to get into due to the darkness of the music but one you get more familiar to that you can appreciate the musicality of it and especially with their 2010s albums which get more progressive and complex than their earlier stuff which tended to be more minimalistic and song oriented. It seems to me it is too dark for jazz fans, too outside of guitar and rhythmic metal conventions for metal fans, too complex and dark for fans of more conventional rock or indie and perhaps even too dark for fans of post rock. I guess in order to "get it" or be more confortable with it you have to enjoy things like The Doors long dark songs (Gira has said that was an influence on him), the Velvet underground, Nico, goth rock, post punk and no wave and some noise rock and dark things within the avant garde jazz and avant garde classical fields. It seems to me it is too dark even for fans of more regular industrial things like Ministry or even NIN and too unpredictable and avant garde at times for fans of even doom and sludge metal who are ready for dark and dirge like stuff.

[@ryandenis7667]

put Soundtracks for The Blind on at a party

[@DrWrapperband]

I listened to Metal Machine music all the way through. When it stops your head is full of music to make sense of it, like an echo, or musical tinnitus. It is genius and it covered the contract.

[@briannewell6064]

The Shaggs 'Philosophy Of The World' is a jaw dropping experience that I've never grown tired of.

[@Thorin-MattfromGO]

I just discovered it last week, it’s so bad and funny that I just keep going back to it

[@samstevenson5328]

For me Suicide’s self-titled debut is one of the most challenging albums for me to get into. But it was so rewarding once it finally clicked and I found the beauty in it

[@a-vic7559]

Tom Waits is also challenging to get into in my opinion

[@AFryingPan]

I play guitar (not that well) but I find that learning guitar (or any instrument) made me appreciate different styles of music. Anything from jazz to death metal I find i can enjoy them much more than before i learnt guitar. It definitely gave me new appreciation for all music

[@Balonious_Crunk]

This, as bad as it sounds, sometimes having a musical background will aid you in listening to music and appreciating more varied forms.

[@dhpbear2]

13:40 - There's also that required 'second listen' the next day.

[@mallowmarkerdon8144]

I enjoy “challenging” music, polarizing sounds are everywhere, some people like tension. The Pod, Duck Slab, and to a certain degree Kid A are really well liked. I think when you spend your whole life listening to music, sometimes you just wanna listen to something that sounds terrible.

[@heldercdo]

You made me try The Shaggs and I am blown away. So effortlessly unexpected. Btw, got your videos recommended recently and so far I am loving your channel. Good work!

[@browe]

Love this topic, love how you dug into it here, and I really appreciate the clarity of your observations, candor, and honest insights into listening as an experience.

[@19ohNate]

If JAWS is on AMC I have to finish it even though I have the DVD at arms reach at all times

[@youwise8D]

I like this direction you’re taking with the channel. Keep it up

[@brownyuio]

As a massive fan (and creator) of outsider art, I simply think there’s this magnetism to the unique. It’s almost like a breath of fresh air, personally. A lot of those albums are near and dear to me!

[@Balonious_Crunk]

I totally agree.

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

A really good video for you to tackle. I deeply respect anyone who willingly struggles with art with an open mind. The easiest path is to be dismissive and never learn.

[@electricwhiterabbit]

Trout Mask Replica is a Masterpiece. You have to listen to it a number of times before you get it and it clicks.

[@anthonym8205]

TMR is great, but the next album (Lick My Decals Off) is more cohesive

[@MexieMex]

There are so many albums I now love that I just couldn't (not just didn't) get get at all when I originally bought them. Great topic.

[@lastpedestrian]

Eloquently presented. Plus it’s nice to see so many of my tribe in the comments section.

[@sugadelicsavagesoul8623]

Put John Coltrane's "Ascension" on at a party. See how fast the room empties. Lol (btw, that's been one of my challenging albums)

[@michaelmoraga2926]

LOL... "Kill that horn, John! Break it on through space-time continuum!"

[@nunomarques7011]

lol thats the reaction i got with miles davis bitches brew

[@thedream-workdoesnotthink4512]

I enjoy that album. 'Om' is difficult because it is poorly recorded. Worth a listen however

[@mrgeorgejetson]

Completely agree with you about the dissonance between Zappa's extreme musical sophistication and the even more extreme idiocy of his sense of humor. Even at age 15 I found this rather striking (and this was in 1990--not exactly an enlightened period in our cultural history), and I could never quite figure out what was going on. Later I realized that it was a pretty common symptom of auto-didacticism. Guys like Zappa figure out that they're geniuses fairly early in life, turn out to be right about it, and then as a result become incapable of tolerating any kind of challenge to their ideas about the world, forever after. It's quite sad, in a way. But hey: his best music is all from the early 70s, with Napoleon Murphy Brock, George Duke, Ruth Underwood, and company (live in Helsinki in 1972 is a good place to begin--and, for that matter, to end), and none of that stuff really suffers from the sophomoric humor that pervades his stuff from the later 70s and all of the 80s.

[@leem6376]

Love the no b.s. reviews as usual. Great channel. I watch all the time. Thanks for making the videos

[@christopherdiedrich40]

I love that you have Chunga's Revenge up on your wall. That is my best Zappa too!

[@Tycry]

This video was really cool. I’m a HUGE Zappa fanatic (currently up to official release no. 110), Trout Mask Replica is my favorite album of all time, and my friend got me into Death Grips. A lot of these opinions were not represented in the video, and I liked that. I’m a musician and composer, so hearing Zappa is so euphoric to me, and TMR is so impressive to me, as well as insanely… insane? And because I’ll never hear something like it again, it’s very special to me. And what you said about the power of hatred of music in comparison to the love of it was very interesting to me. I love music that can disturb me, which is different but interesting to me nonetheless. Thank you geek!

[@LouisHansell]

@10:27...That album was a despicable act by Lou Reed. He rubbed salt into the listener's wound by having the last groove loop, so that it never ended. It was a horrible act of self-indulgence.

[@chairsmissing]

I couldn't "get" Swans, but when it hit me, it became one of the most important breakthroughs in my overall psyche. I feel like I expanded both my knowledge and understanding towards art itself. This is indeed powerful stuff.

[@kevinogracia1615]

Great commentary. The analogy with "Raging Bull" is spot on. Experiencing art depends on desire, devotion and (cough) deviance. One has to be into the right mood to listen to "Jack Johnson" or "Court and Spark." Keep on keeping on. Peace on earth.

[@ErikIversen]

I grew up in the 70s and was lucky to have been exposed to "challenging" music when I was young and impressionable. For example, after hearing all the cool David Bowie singles on the radio I went to the record store and bought his current release. It happened to be 'Low' and I didn't like it at all! But since I only owned a few albums I kept trying and I grew to love it. Another lucky accident was hearing Pink Floyd and buying 'Obscured by Clouds' assuming it was just like the Dark Side album my friend had! I also remember seeing DEVO perform "Satisfaction" on SNL and being blown away. Around that time I heard The Residents, Kraftwerk, Zappa... I didn't like everything I heard, but as a teen my ears were wide open.

[@WastedMotorcycle]

I love "tough listens" as much as movie geeks like "tough watches" and here is my favs Mothers Of Invention - Uncle Meat Soft Machine - Third Pink Floyd - Ummagumma (AHM is also a masterpiece, but its way more approachable) Can - Tago Mago (I fucking love all of Krautrock, a REAL hard listen is Faust's debut) Swans - Soundtracks For The Blind Swans - The Glowing Man Bell Witch - Mirror Reaper

[@mikaelsjoberg1894]

You should check out the Zappaalbums - Overnite Sensation , Apostrophe and Zoot Allures. These are "easy albums" but boy are they good - the songwriting.

[@Alex-io6ky]

love zoot allures album ..first one i ever heard. frank z for life

[@djhygs]

The good thing about Zappa is that he's had so many individual eras that if you keep looking, you'll be sure to find something you like. I find if you ignore some of the politics of the music, it's enjoyable. Trout Mask Replica has no soul in it, and I'm sure some might enjoy it but I just think he's crossed the boundary between experimental music and noise. The one thing I didn't like about The Wall is that you can't enjoy the songs much without knowing the story and what's going on. However, it's my favourite album of all time. Again, Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music is too experimental for my tastes. I know that it was a new sound for the time, but you can't just experiment if you're a musician. There has to be some substance in it too.

[@Ji-qc1rg]

great video! I'm someone who often enjoys very abrasive and experimental music, and it's lovely to hear your perspective

[@RichieG]

Try listening to Sleep Dirt, there above your head! Not a single sophomoric song! (It's very different perhaps than you're used to from Frank.)

[@macsnafu]

This can apply to any music you're not used to listening to, electronica, classical, country and western, etc. Broaden your musical horizons and give something different a chance. And like he says, if you don't like it, you don't like it. But you can't know until you've actually given it a listen.

[@MarkMars-9]

I´m so happy seeing this video, I saw your videos a lot a few years ago when I was first getting into music, (The Beatles and Queen primarily) then I got into some other more recent and chalenging stuff and I stoped seeing your videos, i´m a big Frank Zappa fan now, I was with the fear that you would be a boomer that is stuck in classic rock, but then I remembered you did a video on Tame Impala and then I saw this video, i´m very happy I did! so much respect for you! love what you said about the music, it´s so important to be open minded, and yeath sometimes it just clicks, I had that with a Zappa album(Uncle Meat) and the german band Can

[@Peringon]

Challenging albums that I've come to love: Lou Reed & Metallica - Lulú (For real, this album is very interesting once you get past the esoteric dumbness of it all) John Coltrane - Ascension (Such an amazing listen. Free Jazz is something else) John Cage - Sonatas & Interludes (As avant-garde as avant-garde gets) Steve Reich (Just Steve Reich's music in general) Van Dyke Parks - Song Cycle (An eye opener) Edit: Also check out Kaoru Abe's "Winter 1972". It's a very powerful album.

[@kevinogracia1615]

I agree.

[@TheHSIHP]

Steve Reich's stuff gives me a headache!

[@nunomarques7011]

Miles Davis - Bitches Brew ( a very experimental jazz album)

[@Patrick_Roach]

Which ascension are you referring to?

[@TheHSIHP]

@@nunomarques7011 pretty easy to listen to though. Free jazz on the other hand ..

[@41moose]

Just like darkside, the wall is ALWAYS beginning to end

[@Kaoruishere]

Might just be me, but I never found "Trout Mask Replica" all that challenging. For me personally the key to that album was its absurdist comedy. It certainly is anything but a record to play in the background, but it's a hilarious album to listen to.

[@gratefulklani]

This reminds me of what Jerry Garcia said about the Grateful Dead. “'We're like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice, but the people who like licorice really like licorice.” Ever listen to them? You should check out “Live/Dead” and the “Sunshine Daydream 8/27/72” film Love your channel man!

[@maryfreegirl2029]

Noise music was really challenging for me but now i love a bunch of albums from that genre, merzbow is the goat

[@guidoerfen7944]

As far as "Trout Mask Replica" is concerned, I honestly can claim I even became kind of addicted to it when I purchased it as a teenager. The complexity, the melodies, the polyrhythms, the humor, and even the home-recording quality were very much appealing. The songs became earworms to me and for a year or two I needed a daily dose of that. I was prepared by weirdo stuff such as The Residents though when I picked my copy at the record shop and was keen on getting into the "very originators" of that kind of dadaistic music oddities. Luckily I didn't know the true conditions the band had to practice, otherwise, it would have spoiöed the fun. But of cause, it was commonplace that this was compositions, not improvisations. The case of the Shaggs is surprisingly similar to that of "Trout Mask" since it all was written sheet music! Hard to believe and certain "music experts" here on KZbin deny even considering that this album was a serious effort. Deb Wiggings has a certain kind of mental condition that makes her perceive music differently than the average person. So your "music from an alien culture" approach might be not that wrong. Check out the Deb Wiggins Band footage from the mid 2010ths. They perform each Shaggs song note for note. Check out the comments from her band members of that time: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6PEkn2ujK6ditk kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGXLpKGbmNahnpY As far as "Metal Machine Music" is concerned, Lou Reed contributed to its bad reputation by claiming that it was a huge "f*** ***" to RCA for this kind of fulfilling his contract. But anyway, It's often considered a cornerstone of industrial music. A friend of mine had reduced the playback speed of the recording significantly and had played a section of this on his radio show. It proves the recording is way more complex than one might perceive. So is it an experiment of manipulating the listener with "hidden information"? A key might be that Lou Reed must have been familiar with the work of minimal music pioneer La Monte Young since John Cale had been part of La Monte Young's ensembles in New York in the mid 60ies. And even some early pre-banana-album Velvet Underground (East Village Other sound foil, Chelsea Girls Soundtrack) recordings resemble Young's ideas about sound rooms and sound sculpture. Last year I had the pleasure to experience one of La Monte Young's installations in Bonn: The Dream House. Besides being a pleasantly arranged room, enlightened in red-violet, the most significant feature was a constant, loud, and never changing deep hum filling the room with high density. Not that this feature was that much appealing. Obviously, an attempt to directly access the visitor's mental state. Interestingly though was the effect that the sound changed while I moved through that room. It was like new instruments were added for the most part a church organ. Not did the sound itself change, but I changed my sound input and perception. Maybe this is an approach to getting into "Metal Machine Music". Take it as a sound space and interact with the sound space. I should have re-visited my CD copy ... Or if you have the original double album: How about setting two turntables with two hi-fi sets and playing the two records simultaneously? All sides are 16:01 (Same recording, perfect hoax some people say?) True quadrophonic, almost ... :-) Maybe play at 16 rpm? One has to find a way to interact with that work. Obviously, this isn't entertainment at all. I admire Zappa but I have some problems with his guitar solos especially if they become lengthy. I have the impression that some of the post-original-mothers albums contain a degree of filler material in order to get more releases out to all the faithful fans. I never can say why I love certain prog rock and other gets on my nerves or passes my attention. I love early Curved Air but I can't really get into Jethro Tull albums for instance. The Wall isn't my fave Floyd album either. I got into it intensively at the time it came out. But never came back to it again in later years. That was a tough situation some decades ago when I had some London punks for a visit they urgently wanted to listen to The Wall when they found it in my collection, since they loved it so much, especially for the lyrics. But I hardly could have stood that. And London punks love Floyd? How's that? Surprise surprise!

[@lukastaylor9544]

I was gonna say that

[@jasperburchfield2028]

I think every band should be required to record a double album as weird as Pink Floyd's Ummagumma.

[@ForARide]

Reed said in an interview that John Cale had taught him the techniques of the drone, which he then used on MMM. In the early millenium the Table Of The Elements label released several recordings involving John Cale, recorded in the 60's, parallel to the Velvets, either with La Monte Young's Theatre Of Eternal Music, in collaboration with Tony Conrad and Jack Smith and also collaborating with Sterling Morrison or his solo expermentations. These recordings were mostly DIY and combine Cale's musical experiences working and being lectured by avant-garde luminaries Iannis Xenakis, John Cage and LaMonte Young. These recordings demonstrate Cale's visionary outlook of the sounds to come, predating Industrial music almost by a decade, be it early Cabaret Voltaie, Throbbing Gristle, Einstürzende Neubauten or Suicide. In 2004 the label released a black wooden box set, in lp and also in cd format named 'John Cale: New York In The 1960's. Here's the playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLNINWcxxj9hHMJx4_oFVWNLznPeMWKRVW&feature=shared

[@whychromosomesmusic5766]

I think a lot if has to do with experience where you've been, what you've done, what you've seen. At least for me (at age 62) a lot of it now is nostalgia. Sometimes even music heard for the first time can almost "take me back" in my mind to a place in the past. Most of the time it is music I heard at that time. Speaking of taste I once loaned my copy of "Safe As Milk" to a buddy in the military and he told me it was the worst album he ever heard. Ditto for another buddy whom I loaned my copy of Simple Minds' "Real to Real Cacophony" which I totally love all of it. I heard "These Boots..." by Nancy Sinatra when it was a hit and instantly "got the beat" at the age of 6. I don't know if you are discussing what I call "sleeper" albums. Which for me some of those have been CDs. To me that is music that I don't like the first time listening but eventually it becomes one of my favorite albums/CD's and listen to it a lot. A couple of those for me were "Free All Angels" by Ash and "Think Tank" by Blur. I have heard how much of an influence Karlheinz Stockhausen was on both Alternative and Hip-Hop so I gave his music a listen to a couple of years back. It was "different" at first but "different" in a good way and it did grow on me. I think I'll listen to it again right now in fact. Haven't heard it in awhile. A few years back I gave all of my vinyl to my nieces and nephews and I heard that one of my nieces took all of the ones I gave her family -- to college with her. So it's encouraging to think of all of her college friends getting to listen to a variety of music from Chuck Berry to The Beatles to Love to Echo and the Bunnymen.

[@musamusashi]

Fully agree on the need to challenge ourselves outside of our listening comfort zones, i do it regularly. And as you said, just like with food, musical taste may change over the years, so from.time to time is worth retrying something.

[@augustusbetucius2931]

One of your Patreon supporters here. We listened to this the other night, and I appreciate it immensely. I wish more people would take on this sort of subject. Must have albums are a tired subject, so I'm glad you chose it. As for Zappa, I would suggest some other titles than the ones you've checked out. Waka Jawaka (it's actually titled Hot Rats/Waka Jawaka, not to be confused with Hot Rats. Also check out the live album You Can't Do That Onstage Anymore Vol II and One Size Fits All. About Zappa. some of his later material is, well, just silly. This froma hardcore Zappaphile. But the problem most people have, and don't realize it is that we compartmentalize music. I've noticed that if music contains any humor, it's automatically categorized as novelty music, Dr Demento type material. That's unfair, and very limited thinking. Music should be able to make you laugh without being dismissed as not taking itself seriously enough, or however people think about this. Zappa asked "Does humor belong in music" because of this very reason, and I think it most decidedly does belong in music. Please continue to take on topics such as this. It's refreshing, unique and greatly appreciated. Regards from Darrell and Susanna

[@ministerofdarkness]

One of your best videos. PLAY LOUD

[@cynical8330]

The music that has challenged me the most as a listener has become my favorite music over time

[@augustofos1]

On the Zappa department, One Size Fits All and Over-Nite Sensation are his most accesible albums. If you don't like them, then Zappa is really not your cup of tea, which, just like you said, is 100% ok, but they are definetely worth a try

[@yynnep4803]

Never took you for a gripper, glad you're enjoying the band!

[@Scotty_Russell_Music]

"Too mUch Time" by Beefheart is one of the most sincere soul songs of all time.

[@nastynate4503]

Such a great topic. Thanks for your opinions. What I observed living through it was that until the mid-90's, the goal of a rock band was to do something fresh and new, but when labels started consolidating, the business interests wanted music that was reliable and familiar. So now the goal of a rock band is to sound the same, not to sound different. You can follow a band like Weezer, who became famous at this time. At first Weezer was a little unique, a little oddball, then Pinkerton was kind of a flop because it was so different, so when Weezer retooled for the Green Album, they clearly made the decision to be a commercial rock band. There was a brief rediscovery of old music when bands like the Black Keys, the Strokes, and the White Stripes got famous in the early 2000's, but it faded. Most bands basically sound like Imagine Dragons now, and I like Imagine Dragons, but we need a Trout Mask Replica every once in a while. I guess the question is, can it ever happen again? Could a Zappa happen again? I sure hope so.

[@josephconway1968]

I Totally Agree with tour assessment of listening to an album like Floyds The Wall! Everything you said, I've found myself saying the same thing!!😁😎 Dig your channel, subscribed!👍🏻

[@steelypeanut]

Sandshone’s debut album from last year really floored me.

[@michaelmoraga2926]

Sometimes the music lover is in the mood to be moved in a different way... Such is art.

[@yedgim8172]

Surprised you enjoyed Death Grips haha. Way outside your comfort zone. Love Zappa and Primus ❤️ Chungas Revenge is actually my favorite Zappa album so it's pretty cool it's up on your wall. ✌🏼

[@Kris-mb1ob]

I remember your review on Malibu Ken, Aesop Rock is my favorite artist. A lot of people seem to not get into him due to his complexity in lyrics. But once it's understood, his music to me is the most rewarding experience I've ever had in music.

[@thehotyounggrandpas8207]

Cardiacs. You're welcome.

[@Claus-CaptainPhoenixCorner]

Your thoughts on how and why to like/not like (or get) some music makes perfect sense. It can be new and challenging to you - but some of it has to resonate with "something" in you. I love Lou Reed's "New York" - but can't stand some of his "pure noise" albums. There is just no connection (except for tha name on the cover). Regarding Frank Zappa (which I really like up until around the early 1980's): Do your self a favor and listen to "Roxy And Elsewhere" - take it as if you were actually to a live concert (all 4 record sides in one listening if you can finde the time). I bet it'll get you within 3 listenings 🙂

[@adamfindlay7091]

Forays( is that a word) into uncharted terr is important. Like ya said, its not for everyone. Leaps of imagination, some may not comprehand, esp right away. Beefheart is a wordsmith. The music is out there. Excellent vid, mister.

[@DerekPower]

Oh let’s see 😆 I get a kick out of “challenging” music and mostly because I like to know what is possible in music. And there are times where I take “strange” or “challenging” as “challenge accepted” Here’s a list of challenging albums for the adventurous: Autechre - Confield Autechre and the Hafler Trio - 3oæh The Darkest Future - Floral Shoppe 2 Fantomas - Delirium Cordia Mr. Bungle - Disco Volante Sonic Youth - Invito al cielo Vangelis - Beaubourg Vangelis - Invisible Connections Igor Wakhévitch - Docteur Faust An artist that has pissed me off before - though I’ve come to terms … somewhat - is Nurse with Wound.

[@MrPlannery]

This is such a high quality channel.

[@jillianevangeline2860]

Pick up the first Mr.Bungle. Led by Mike Patton of Faith No More who made one of the best rock albums ever in Angel Dust. See how far you can get. You can't unhear it.

[@TheMoodyLoners]

Great topic. What's striking to me is that for the most part, the challenging music from "outsiders" is over 50 years old. What does that say about the contemporary music landscape?

[@matthewpaul6904]

I can understand The Wall. You have to be in the mood and of course have the time to get through it. Then again I've listened to the White Album from beginning to end several times, despite me having my favorites

[@royrice6656]

Only redeeming value is it helps you appreciate music. If you really need a renewed appreciation….👍

[@AdvancedLiving]

I used to let Pink Floyd The Wall play while I did my homework. - edit - o.k. If you’re actually looking for challenging music to listen to check out some Archie Shepp. Some of his tunes are supposed to sound drunk, or scatterbrained or lucid. His early 70’s stuff was out there.

[@dixielandfarm]

I can handle lots of challenging music, especially Outsider music... and I try every few years with Trout Mask and still doesn't click with me. Same, a few songs I do actually like but most, nope. I'm a Zappa fan, mostly the early stuff, and most of the stuff after early 70s the juvenile stuff just falls flat for me - he would have been fine never having lyrics, but found THOSE kind of lyrics made more people listen, so that's what he did. LOVE The Shaggs, and partly because I was lazy and never took the tape out of my car for two weeks and discovered at some point, I started hearing the music the way THEY heard the music in their heads - it no longer was this broken thing.

[@GooGuGajoob]

Great video. Honestly. Would love more if they illicit just as much interest and passion on your behalf.

[@Zen_Shot]

You know, you're right. I'm going to step outside my comfolubbaluble zone and listen to something off pat for a change.

[@TheKatpurz]

Black Midi is in this category for me... I don't get it but I see other people get it and I keep trying...heh

[@zundap100]

This is very nicely explained👍

[@estuardoarroyo4758]

I really like this format, where you give your opinion on something that is not strictly about an album in specific. Don't get me wrong, I love those, but it's cool to know your opinion on other music related topics :)

[@calvinwazoo]

Your criticism of Frank Zappa's music is a common one and I can relate to it - the juxtaposition of really amazing music with often puerile lyrics. I've heard others say when they hear the phrase "it's challenging music," their reaction is the music is simply pretentious. However, I am a Zappa fan, and I can be honestly critical when some of his material doesn't work (Thing Fish is awful, period). Bands I just don't get, and which are fairly mainstream, include Radiohead and My Bloody Valentine, and yet I like shoegaze and noise bands. I have difficulty with Sun Ra, but every once in a while I'll listen to some - I do not hate it, and I hear bits of brilliance within the recordings, but the journey within the flow of the material still eludes me. Cool video, nice explanation. BTW, I love Trout Mask Replica, loved it from the first listen, but interesting fact is Captain Beefheart always blamed Zappa for screwing up the recording and production.

[@jmad627]

I love “The Wall”. I was a senior in high school when it came out and we listened to it all the time in my friend’s van. Now…I find it depressing to listen to. “Trout Mask Replica” is unlistenable. Agree with pretty much everything else you say. Zappa I do like, especially the LPs he made in the later 70’s. But understand people who aren’t too crazy about him. His fans are hardcore. Lou Reed…his records are a challenge. I saw him live and him and his band were great. His records I’m not too hip on. Great topic, btw.

[@adamm7001]

A good entry point for Zappa is “One Size Fits All”. Peak FZ

[@mcbefey]

this is a really great topic... I have some of the problems with most "comedy" music that you mentioned with Zappa. I just can't get into Primus, Gwar... even the Beastie Boys, etc. I listened to so much Weird Al and They Might Be Giants growing up and just can't anymore.

[@woohooo9984]

Good stuff, I think your saying a bunch of stuff everyone is thinking but too “cool” to admit! I love Trout mask because it always makes me laugh and smile, completely agree with Metal machine music

[@joycejimenez701]

You should review The RESIDENTS music or Crispin Glover’s album

[@mrrowwmeoww]

have you listened to 1000 gecs before? i heard money machine a few times in late 2019 early 2020 and it was utterly confusing to me, i couldnt get how people liked it. some time in july 2020 i took a few listens of money machine and everything clicked in my head, and the rest of album also clicked to me as well. i absolutely adore 100 gecs and their music. it's just so fun to listen to, and even more fun live. you arent going to find deep personal topics (though the solo music of laura les and dylan brady can go into that, i absolutely love how to dress as human by laura les for example), they are some beautiful moments on the album like the ending part of gecgecgec and gec 2 U but it's a lot of fun i highly recommend giving the entire album a shot, it's only 23 minutes and it's at least an interesting listen even if you dont like it. im incredibly excited for their next album coming out this year

[@MrMattaiusify]

Would love to hear you talk about Animal Collective

[@marcospetersen]

Faust - So far (1972) is one of these albums that no one understands the reason why I love it.

[@cockula776]

You just turned me onto Faust, I'm listening to So Far now and at first I thought I got it. No onto track two, yeah I don't, It produces more questions than answers, and it's a stripped down masterpiece so far!

[@GizmoFan1]

A lot of my favorite albums of all time are like this. Lingua Ignota is one of my favorite artists -- I can't casually listen to her though, and I know that I've only played her albums maybe 5-8 times each. I have to be in a very specific mood and headspace to want to listen to something so abrasive and tortured. What I'd probably rank as one of the most important albums in my life, one of the things that changed how I listen to music, and a real contender for my album of the decade in the 2010s, I haven't listened to in years. That would be Prurient's Frozen Niagara Falls, a massive 92 minute double album full of noise, drones, industrial, and just overall horrifying and despondent sounds. That album has left an indelible mark on my taste and what I listen to music for, but I'm never going to put on a song like Greenpoint or Dragonflies to Sew You Up or A Sorrow With a Braid just as background music, nor am I often in the headspace to want something that genuinely mind destroying. There's something exciting about the unpredictability of noise music that I can only really get either there, or from something like intense free jazz. White Suns is a genuinely unique band in terms of noise rock. Love all of their albums, but you will never find me listening to them driving. They're so far removed from something like Jesus Lizard which is more noisy punk rock, or Sonic Youth that is noisy but has actual songwriting and more of an art rock feeling. White Suns sounds like music violently being torn apart. My most played album so far this year is Ville Valo's solo debut; I love the band HIM, and this just sounds like that again but a little less heavy. I already know it's not going to be my album of the year though, given I like the new album from death metal band Nothingness more. But I know the Ville Valo album is going to get a LOT more play just because it's an easier listen. clipping. is an interesting one for me, because even though they are abrasive and challenging, I casually listen to them pretty easily. A lot of their stuff is really catchy and pretty fun for being the kind of band to sample power drills and pure noise. By the way, if you like the Shaggs, definitely check out more outsider music. There's a great video about it on KZbin. Daniel Johnston is probably the most famous name thanks to the documentary on him and endorsement from Kurt Cobain, but a personal favorite for me is Wesley Willis. You rarely hear music that is so raw and unfiltered, it sounds objectively amateurish and kind of bad, but it's so genuine that it's enthralling. A lot of these artists make a lot more interesting music than what you'll hear in both the mainstream and the underground.

[@owenf2835]

starsailor - tim bucklet is one my favorites

[@thewintereaglefly]

great video and can relate, I guess every music fan notices their taste changing with time and things clicking more often, I didn't use to like Sonic Youth and they're my absolutely favorite band nowadays, same thing with Primus and their debut (imo a lot better than Sea of Cheese)

[@jdd3786]

Check out 'Everywhere at the End of Time' by "The Caretaker". It is music composed to simulate the beginning, middle, and late stages of dementia. Gets pretty hard to listen to towards the end.

[@ChromeDestiny]

I made myself a playlist of what the original planned double album version of what became Strictly Personal might have been like and found it a more satisfying listen than Trout Mask Replica. Trout Mask has tracks I like but I find trying to play the full double album a tough prospect.

[@davidjarvie9546]

Rainbow dome music by Steve hillage is another experimental album, I remember getting it at a flea market and getting home ,putting it on the turntable (yes I'm that old).and for what seemed like the next 48 hours I couldn't decide where it started and where it ended. It was nearly all the same. I understand why it was made but it's not a regular album on my playlist for a reason. It sucks!

[@Z1zero5]

Spot on.

[@dominou01]

IMO Trout Mask Replica is better when you listen to the 2LP album. Separating the album in 4 sides makes it easier to digest and and the song sequence reflects that too. Track order was obviously chosen with the 4 sides in mind . Try it out.

[@kurtzcol]

interesting topic !

[@richardgarcia6379]

When I listened to trout mask it took a few listens but it’s one of my favorites and it reminds me of if cavemen found a Time Machine and pressed any buttons and went to the future and landed in a music studio with a bunch of instruments that they never seen and no nothing about and started plucking away lol and also found a joint and smoked it and then got real creative and started laughing to the point of crying and just had fun for that short time period lol that’s what I like about it and to no the story behind it and there is a video breaking down the first song that only 2 minutes and I think it has 21 different parts that never repeats and it’s different Melodie’s in different keys playing different time signatures lol but it works. You gotta go in to that album with a sense of humor that’s for sure and I was so glad I was open to it cuz afterwards I learned to love those songs

[@JackRascal]

Great video, but when DON'T you put out a great video? I took some recommendations from this one. A thing that always surprised me about Captain Beefheart was listening to his other albums... I assumed they'd all be avant garde and that Trout Mask Replica was his usual style. They're not exactly "regular" music, but they're much more instantly accessible.

[@TheAgeOfAnalog]

Funny you mention The Wall, which I only listen to when I can I can listen to it in it's entirety. Also, I believe The Final Cut is one of Roger Waters' finest achievements. It came out my senior year in high school and it's topics were very timely for me. I'll never understand why so many people hate on that record.

[@ralphalder14]

I’ve tried many times to appreciate my vinyl copy of In The Court Of King Crimson by King Crimson. Each time I wonder what all the fuss is about !

[@michaelconfoy2862]

Red is better

[@nunomarques7011]

great album, whenever i go back to it i appreciate something new about it

[@adamm7001]

Never got that album either. Maybe my expectations were built up so much that it could only be a let down. It’s a fine album, it doesn’t blow my mind though.

[@ralphalder14]

It’s great how tastes differ isn’t it? I just don’t get it, though I do like other Prog rock albums. Also, do you ever listen to an album and think “meh” then listen again months later and think “wow”!?

[@Formula-602]

If you listened to other stuff from same time period..as it came out..Court was WAY different!

[@AustinSimard]

For me that album would be Earth 2: Special Low Frequency Version. I sat through the entire 3 track hour + experience and I can certainly appreciate what they were going for with the INSANE guitar production / amplification, but no way am I ever going to sit through it again. But it is still very fascinating and I enjoyed it for the experience, not as something catchy or traditionally "enjoyable" to listen to.

[@maxwelltalley612]

I think Zappa is just inherently hit or miss. Jumping in is very overwhelming, and I think the humor of his stuff is almost too meta for some. But it’s what they’re playing that makes it all worth it. I think my “try this and see if you like it” albums of his that you didn’t mention are “Uncle Meat” - honestly his White Album (a 2-LP perfect mess), “One Size Fits All” - definitely humorous but some of his best jazz rock stuff, and “The Grand Wazoo” - some of his best compositional work.

[@justitgstuff5284]

Yeah, The Wall isn't challenging but it feels like it takes several hours to sit through the whole thing, making it hard to commit to casually. It's easily one of my least played PF albums even though I really like it overall.