Why Virtua Fighter Is More Important Than Tekken ~Segalacious

[@JoeyFreeze]

It’s also worth mentioning that the early Virtua Fighter games were on systems that had pretty short life spans here in the US...thus making them largely ignored in comparison to Tekken, which was on the thriving Playstation.

[@VirtuaBros]

Joey Freeze indeed. The poor Saturn was so misunderstood in the usa.

[@kylem.7466]

@@VirtuaBros So then, the poor Dreamcast was just misunderstood in Japan?

[@kylem.7466]

It also helps to develop an interesting story, as well as characters who aren't just their fighting style😑

[@thepower56]

@@kylem.7466 the story was in the booklet lol

[@Sakaki98]

Kyle Mischief You say that, but Street Fighter II was one of the most popular fighting games of its time and it had no real story beyond non-canon manga spinoffs that didn’t sell well at the time. Meanwhile KoF was never as big as SF was even though they had a full fledged narrative from day one. I think it helps to have a story but wasn’t a make-or-break kind of situation by any means.

[@thetruej7872]

I wish Virtua Fighter had a 6th game and an arcade mode with individual endings and a story mode. I love the Virtua Fighter series and want to see more of it.

[@VirtuaBros]

You're definitely not alone in that.

[@ShyheimMalachi]

Well, this age well. Ur in luck. Sega just announced Virtua Fighter 6 this year

[@cutcc]

I've always greatly respected the Virtua Fighter series, but imo I feel Tekken is the more accessible game. Tekken has more of a harmony between its movement system and its movelist (which is based on combining f, d, b, d/f,d/b, etc. inputs with the 4 limbs--or a combination of those 4 attack buttons). I've been trying to get into Virtua Fighter every once in a while, and I still don't feel like I've fully understand the VF mechanics--but then again that could be because I'm not putting in enough time/looking at the right resources online. I would love for Tekken 7's 2nd Guest Character DLC to be a Virtua Fighter character, it'll be a great homage to the series as well as hopefully acting as a catalyst for me to learn VF again =).

[@VirtuaBros]

cutcc omg dude I would LOVE a VF guest character in Tekken 7. Day 1 buy :)

[@JackBlack-cy1wp]

Virtua Fighter is more hard-core and purest with a higher emphasis on frames - there was an excellent Tinyurl site that covered absolutely every nuance of Virtua Fighter's mechanics and what sets it apart from others. It has extreme depth in its simplicity. Though In fairness, Tekken is more casually accessible and easier.

[@Noctsranun]

It all started the era of 3D Fighters:Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Soul, Dead or Alive, Bloody Roar....

[@VirtuaBros]

Good Rock Indeed!

[@Noctsranun]

Truly indeed man! When I was a child, I played Tekken 3 popularly by button mashing (therefore I'm at Tekken 7 maintaining my main man Lars), and of course I played all VF games just like I mained Lars I also mained Jean as well. Followed up by Soul series, DOA, and Bloody Roar. Bloody Roar is all but DOA and VF pure heavy metal music, and they transform themselves into powerful beasts. Good arcade stuff ^_^

[@MEGASTRIX]

Fuck I love bloody roar extremely underrated and is always awesome in any generation. I think br2 is better and more raw .

[@Noctsranun]

2 is the greatest and their powerful attacks xD

[@BruceLeeBeatEmUp]

Bloody roar 3 is the best

[@crashpal]

Virtua Fighter is technically far superior than Tekken but Tekken's got that "silly fun" factor which you don't get in many fighting games which is why more people go for Tekken when it comes to 3D fighting games.

[@VirtuaBros]

crashpal I agree. I love Tekkens silly fun :)

[@wowathena]

so Ryu is VF and Ken Masters is Tekken. Ryu is all about focus, training, mastery. He doesnt rly cares what others think about hem. he doesnt care about rewards, hes walkin world alone seeking perfection of hemself for its own purpose. Ken is about being flashy, firesome, bombastic, to win tournements to kick arse, and to have a blast. But after all winnings at end of day, deep down inside, ken admits to hemself that ryu is the real warrior, for being what he is, and for that reason sees hem as inspiration.

[@VirtuaBros]

That was well said! Dang, that's such a good way of putting it. Poetic too. Nicely done :)

[@damokles8568]

The fact that we didn't get a new VF game since 2006 is a PROFOUND SADNESS (with guys voice),VF2 was my favorite fighting game for long time,Not to mention the Anime also (it was good at its time).the realism that game has and the less cliche is very appreciated to me,the same reason that makes me love playing Bushido Blade nowdays. Nice Video,wish you all success

[@VirtuaBros]

Colezy_k that's a good point. I would love a more fleshed out VF story mode!

[@VirtuaBros]

PCFighter thanks man. Dude I friggin loved Bushido blade! We really need VF 6. It's killing me :(

[@shafferbrosyt]

I have played VF since 1990s when my parents bought us our Sega 32x. My friends with their super nintendo and street fighter 2 could never understand why I loved VF so much more. It really is more rewarding the longer you play.

[@VirtuaBros]

Scott Shaffer oh man the 32x was the best version of VF 1 outside of the arcade lol

[@kerryrussell6071]

Tekken....sorry but "checkmate". Virtua Fighter holds its own.

[@tonikpun5369]

I think I'm starting to love Virtua fighter.

[@VirtuaBros]

Tonik Pun Awesome I'm so glad to hear That! There is a lot to love :)

[@ThrashMetalWolf666]

Also note that Seiichi Ishii the co creator of Virtua Fighter and the creator of Tekken, continued to revolutionize the 3D fighting game genre when he founded DreamFactory, games like the Tobal series, Ehrgeiz, The Bouncer, and Kakuto Chojin, which had most of the mechanics (Like Just Frames, and Throw Escaping) that modern fighting games have today (However some where not used like Free 3D movement).

[@VirtuaBros]

Silver Haired Devil Very good points!

[@BoyBlaze2002]

Coming from a huge Tekken fan, I must say there’d be no tekken had the classic, iconic, pioneer game that is VF had not surfaced.

[@VirtuaBros]

Definitely not as we know it today.

[@BoyBlaze2002]

Virtua Bros fact of the matter is when I think about it in retrospect I’m not the big tekken fan I thought I was seeing as though I only play with 2 characters. I started with Tekken 2 I didn’t like tekken 1 at all, but I say that to say this, Baek Doo San and Bruce Irvin are the only 2 characters I use in Tekken. As you know they were omitted from the rosters in tekken 3,4, and 7. Where as I play with 6 Characters in VF, Kage Maru (my main since part 1) Pai Chan, Sarah Bryant, Lion Rafale, Lei Fei, and Brad Burns. I like every VF game that has ever come out, because it got better and better with every game. Tekken was a roller coaster ride because they’re not consistent with their roster. I just wish a VF 6 would come out already.

[@VirtuaBros]

@@BoyBlaze2002 I didn't like Tekken 1 either. 2 was much better. Amen to needing vf6

[@BoyBlaze2002]

Virtua Bros Yezzir

[@hollowedhope]

It's not just the fact that it was a pioneer introducing poligons and 3d animations. To me, it's the respect for martial arts and gameplay depth. baji quan, jeet kune do, shaolin kung fu, pancratium. I just don't get that from Tekken...

[@VirtuaBros]

hollowedhope well put my friend

[@hollowedhope]

And the last great virtua fighter was VF4. 5 brought nothing new and doesn't even have that Virtua Fighter edge. It's very clear Suzuki wasn't behind. Not hatin', but definitely not lovin' it

[@VirtuaBros]

hollowedhope VF 4 probably is better, but I actually like 5 just a little more

[@hollowedhope]

To each his own, bruh... Once again, not hatin'. I was speaking subjectively. 5 was the only virtua fighter i regretted playing. With all other, i was blown away

[@budgiecat9039]

The only time I got it from Tekken was through Lei Wulong and Eddy Gordo really. In some ways Jin Kazama who had more rooted Kyokushin Karate representation than Kazuya or Heihachi. I even remember seeing a Tekken 3 poster ads sponsoring a tournament i competed in once..

[@revenant514]

Virtua Fighter is such a great game franchise in my opinion, it just doesn't get enough large recognition like Tekken does.

[@VirtuaBros]

@@revenant514 exactly my sentiments

[@justinmercado1185]

Virtua fighter is so important, it is the only game DESERVINGLY preserved at the Smithsonian museum. Without virtua fighter, there is NO PS1, there is NO 3D games, & there is NO Tekken

[@VirtuaBros]

Well put

[@ElfHostage]

Legend has it Virtua Bros is still hearting and replying to comments.

[@VirtuaBros]

The legend exists!

[@RomanticAnalog]

Nothing compares to Virtua Fighter. Period.

[@taylord5381]

If it means anything, Seiichi Ishii was a designer on the original virtua fighter, and afterwards was a director on tekken 1 and 2.

[@VirtuaBros]

Yes and it does! See my video on seiichi ishii called pet projects of gaming icons all about his game kakuto Chojin.

[@koalawithchaingun53]

The one thing I disagree with is the intuitive buttons. The 4 limb system is the most intuitive fighting system I've seen, and it makes learning the game a lot easier. There are even some moves that you can just look at and you just "know" the notation.

[@Noum77]

Yeah that happens a lot in tekken

[@VirtuaBros]

snair I think Tekkens controls are very good. I was just trying to point out that to someone who perhaps never played a video game before "punch, kick, gaurd" is a simpler concept to learn than "left punch, right punch, left kick, right kick". I would say VF is easier to learn, harder to master.

[@crashpal]

@Oh So Jiggly Virtua Fighter and Dead or Alive have similar control scheme

[@ludi479]

Oh So Jiggly 😒

[@brucenatelee]

That's why Virtua Fighter characters in DOA5 made more sense than having VF characters in Tekken. They literally had all their moved done exactly as they always were.

[@JoshSTATiX]

I'll say this, I respect Virtua Fighter for pioneering 3D fighting. While the fighting itself is pretty technical and grounded. The fights for me personally weren't entertaining or interesting to watch. I enjoy fighting games and played many of them. While Virtua Fighter again brought 3D fighters to the forefront, games like Tekken, Soulcalibur and Dead or Alive I personally feel perfected the genre with their engaging approach to combat. Those games have memorable characters, interesting storylines and entertaining combat system (a lot more edgier than virtua fighter). When I play games I like to know a little more about the world the characters in itself, what are they fighting for and why should I care, I don't see that with Virtua Fighter until later games they explore story a bit better but still pales in comparison to other fighters that built lore and world building early on. Don't get me wrong I still play VF from time to time, VF2, VF4 and VF5FS are the games I enjoy the most out of. Hopefully VF6 can make a return cause it's been missing from Sega

[@VirtuaBros]

Here's to hoping we get more vf in the near future. If you're interested in the vf characters check out my vf lore series. There's actually a lot to each character's backstory.

[@PhoenixSplash]

King Versus Wolf needs to happen! Who's the true master of the Giant Toss. As much as I love Tekken, Virtua Fighter is probably one of the most important games of all time. With Tekken announcing all of these guest characters, I'm sure that a Virtua Fighter character can make the cut. Namco Bandai just needs to make a big fighting game with characters from different companies. I have a feeling that they will someday.

[@VirtuaBros]

Phoenix Splash TV If Geese Howard can make it into Tekken I don't see why wolf can't. Sarah vs Ninja would be fun to see as well. And Shun vs Eddie Gordo lol

[@suiken3149]

It really depends on how Sega pay Namco to promote their characters, although VF characters have already made an appearance in DOA.

[@megaman15ish]

I got into Virtua Fighter recently and I absolutely love it! Here's hoping they make a 6th game. The series needs more love.

[@brandonall]

I wish the video went more into why VF is more complex. Stuff like buffering multiple inputs for throw breaks and the sidestep system take a lonnngggg time to become fluent at. However, Tekken also has deep mechanics suck as Korean backdashes and just frame moves at high levels.

[@VirtuaBros]

Bardin False You make a good point. I've seen videos that were 2.5 hours long dedicated to the complexity of virtua fighters controls. I was trying to keep this video under 10 minutes and tried to focus how influential and intuitive the series is for this video. Maybe I can do the complexity more justice in its own dedicated video if you like?

[@brandonall]

That could be really cool. i remember back in the days of EGM and 1up, the writers would just say that Virtua Fighter is harder without actually going into more detail. I think a follow-up video at a later day could be cool!

[@VirtuaBros]

Bardin False I will put it on the list :)

[@rashidallera759]

how complex Virtua fighter? because no flash hits? no sense of logic...yeah, we admit tekken is so flashy but it does not mean its lesser depth...did you know that i'm mastering bryan's taunt cancel for so long before i master the timing in connecting to launcher attack?...anyone who did not understand the mathematics of arcade game should shut up...virtua fighter has depth but sorry tekken is much appreciated by many, its newby friendly (because of button mashing)but its hard to master

[@VirtuaBros]

rashid Allera I made a video comparing the depth of VF and Tekken if you're interested:)

[@DriedPlank]

Tekken, soul caliber, Virtual fighter and dead or alive are all equally important in the gaming industry. The success of these determines if people want more 3d fighting games. I don't think the virtual fighter creators are trying anymore. As the current leaders of fighting games, honestly both Tekken and Street fighter have been dropping in quality lately. Arcsystem is looking to take over the 2D fighting game throne. Tekken's main story line is ending and there just isn't as much content in 7 as in Tag 2 or Tekken 6.

[@VirtuaBros]

Plank I'll like all 4 of those game franchises as well. Sega has definitely neglected virtua fighter. From my point of view the more the 3d fighting game genre grows the more important VF becomes because it invented this genre. Hopefully Tekken 7 will get more updates soon.

[@Xxandrew01]

Plank I love Soul Calibur.

[@zecle]

Plank why would sega make another virtua since they only have to rent the right to use their characters in doa and sell their database to teamninja, as gameplay is almost identical, to make lots of money ?

[@BlowMySaxOff]

@@VirtuaBros no franchise is more important than the other? It all depends on the persons perspective and there relationships with the franchises they have grown to love. I dont believe that Tekken coppied much from the series as they are only a year apart from when each company released there game.

[@mgm6229]

3:42 It is indeed correct to view Virtua Fighter as the first polygonal fighting game, since 4D Sports Boxing is indeed a sports game, rather than a fighting one. Overall, great video, my dude. It surprises me to see how such a high quality video has so many dislikes. Lotsa butt-hurt Tekken wankers everywhere, apparently.

[@VirtuaBros]

Ain't that the truth lol. Thanks for your comment it cheered me up today :)

[@mgm6229]

@@VirtuaBros Glad to know, Sir. And thank you again for the excellent content you provide. Stay well. ^_^

[@adlerjeramie]

Virtua Fighter always felt more grounded in the accuracy of the combat. It always felt more real. The movement in Tekken has always felt more controlled by the system. When I think of Virtua Fighter I think of how amazing the combat in Shenmue felt.

[@brucenatelee]

Virtua Fighter was the first 3D fighter to introduce walls and character customization. But no, Virtua Fighter and DOA works because of the button schemes being P, K, and G. A VF character would have to have the buttons work completely differently, as it uses 2 punches, 2 kicks, and no block button. It can be done, but it would be for the Tekken fans who like Virtua Fighter than the other way around.

[@VirtuaBros]

brucenatelee I see your point. I would still be ok with that.

[@TheHalcyonView]

I am a weird case, I love Virtua Fighter, but the reason I got hooked into it was the anime series. That was just for starters, after some playing I really became addicted to the fighting mechanics and simplicity of having cool looking fighters performing great stunts in each of their fighting disciplines. Also, VF characters are far more relatable than those of any other fighting game, at least to me it is so. There are no over the top techniques or crap like that.

[@VirtuaBros]

ShonenSamurai I totally agree that VF has more relatable characters. For some reason everyone thinks the characters are bland and generic but that just isn't true. That's why I started doing my Virtua Fighter Lore series.

[@Noum77]

People are right when they say vf WAS important as inventing the 3d fighting system isn't enough; being able to bring it to a level where its inventors themeselves could never hope to reach is way more important, and that's what Tekken did as they never stopped innovating. It's like saying Apple invented the smartphone, but who does it better now: Google. So maybe it's time to stop to live in the past.

[@VirtuaBros]

Nomentsoa I understand where you're coming from and I respect your opinion. I feel that VF still is the most important 3d fighter as no game has ever matched its complexity, balance, or depth in addition to the fact that it invented the 3d fighting genre.

[@Noum77]

Oh So Jiggly You really need to make an in-depth analysis of VF's mechanics, balance... as many people here don't have an idea how it is really compared to Tekken, me included.

[@VirtuaBros]

Nomentsoa I plan on making a follow up video addressing just that in the near future. Please stay tuned :)

[@playernosenseoj9741]

Don't know if you played Last Bronx but it's definitely better than Soul Edge made by the VF Creator's such a underrated treasure

[@VirtuaBros]

Yeah it's awesome. I think the am3 guys actually made that one from the ground up

[@liamflannigan9097]

I've actually heard of i, it looks pretty cool. I'd try to get it, but I lack the money to, and I wanna get Tekken 7, VF5, Soul Calibur, etc, before they're dead, and I wanna get a PS3 before its servers are shut down, though there's still a while before that happens.

[@Chopinbarcarolle]

Glad to know there're people out there that admit the significance of Virtua Fighter series with regards to its make, construction, and intuitive gaming design. Never been spending my gaming life without VF series ever since it first came out to the world in 1993.

[@VirtuaBros]

Awesome man. I brought my Dreamcast to a magic the gathering tournament last night and introduced VF to an audience of young adults in the form of VF3 tb. They absolutely loved it and one kid even pulled out his phone and started downloading a ROM of it right there lol

[@janfreidun]

ah! yes the ring out feature, in VF Kids you have the ability to decide for yourself the actual size of the ring, and that is really interesting, another thing I do not know if you have talked about but hear this; VF KIDS has a ranking mode feature you get to choose only one charcter and you have only one life bar, if you loose then there is no continue but rather via the screen it says e.g. you have been ranked by the VFK judges , as rank no. 5 - "try to use at least one special move in each stage" along with the combo maker, what is nice is that it brings a new side to it because it, -as you also pointed out- brings some depth to it, in a way that is not found in all series of fighting games. I feel lucky that this was a series comparing two rather well made game series and not other like the pointless Ballz 3D for Mega Drive, I thank you, keep up the good work

[@VirtuaBros]

Jan Freidun Taravosh haha ballz 3d! I remember that one. It was pretty bad but I played it a ton lol!

[@janfreidun]

Yes, I as I wrote to you earlier about "Ballz 3D" as you also pointed out the general idea of Virtua Fighter having depth, I know about the games on other platforms then Mega Drive and Saturn, yet if you remember Ballz -which I played for little while, grew tired of and traded in for something else- then you while that virtua fighter aim compared to games as Ballz has complete setting and environment, more to say full meal approach even more in the way mastring the combos (or making your own in VF Kids side note) which adds a strategic element to all other than Ballz that was just an experiment in processing graphics in a new way, a show piece that did not add much worthy to show us in the end. I bored, I do not remember any sense of undesting behind the pattern of movement and attacks related to smart ways of using the controller I do not remember much at all part from stupid music, and strange graphics - no refinement in gameplay

[@janfreidun]

I do not know why there ends up a blank line crossing over part of my message making it hard to read for you. but as pointed out if so then you will know that VFs purpose is fundamentally different if to side to side to games like "Ballz", this why Ballz bored me. I meant to write it -meang ballz 3D- bored me but there was a typo there for me for I am on maximum velocity while typing, I am sorry for I know not how to recapture a series old replies or how to edit them

[@OddSauce]

I beg to disagree, sometimes a game that tries to be too beginner friendly ends up hindering depth for those who want to master it by lowering excessively the skill ceiling, a button assigned to each Limb strikes the perfect balance of beginner friendliness while still giving the pros a deep meta game they can analyze and master. In addition to that tekken over the years has made bold efforts to introduce new mechanics to enrich high level play while still keeping faithful to its origins while Virtua fighter never really stepped out of its comfort zone, as much as I respect the Virtua fighter series but coming first and revolutionize a genre doesn't stand the test of time if you let those who come after you do what you did but better. I don't deny the importance Virtua fighter had in the past, but that's where it'll stay, in the past

[@VirtuaBros]

OddSauce I appreciate your well thought out response. I think with the controls I was trying to convey that VF is easier to learn than Tekken on the surface, but more difficult to master in the long run. We differ on the point about whether or not VF should be relegated to a relic of the past. To me, as the 3d fighter genre grows, so too does VFs importance. But thank you for posting your very interesting thoughts. I enjoyed reading :)

[@OddSauce]

that's cool man, personally I wouldn't relegate it to being a relic of the past but rather as an important milestone, a relic is more like a product of the time while VF revolutionized the genre leading to the creation of new products from what it established which is no easy task by a long shot. all and all I did enjoy your video, the level of quality of your writing, pacing and editing made me initially think you were a channel with 10k subs at least, keep at it man, you got talent.

[@VirtuaBros]

Thanks man that's really nice of you to say :)

[@atuls55]

I've played them both over many years and I disagree Tekken hasn't done a great deal to move things forward in the last few games and the last VF VF5:FS edition dumbed things down to make it more accessible. Few people seem to realize this about VF:FS. The only really interesting thing Tekken 7 did was bring in 2d characters like Akuma and try to make them play like 2d characters in a 3d game.

[@OddSauce]

atuls55 you seem to ignore the addition of new crush systems, screw attacks and rage art/drives which add a whole extra layer and opens up more possibilities for players to turn the tides, I think out of the few past games tekken 7 is the one that took the most bold steps in terms of specific gameplay changes

[@flipkiller8521]

What differentiates Tekken from Virtua Fighter are the fights, the fighting styles and how they're handled. Tekken feels like an Anime fight where sparks and rule of cool are prominent while Virtua Fighter feels more grounded and more like a real martial arts tournament like let's say Pride or UFC.

[@eltonbormes]

Good points. I think that people should look more at how VF managed to change games as a whole, and also the fighting genre. Something Tekken was not able to do, even with it's gigantic power. Virtua Fighter is a defining title, a pioneer, while Tekken is an evolution of the blueprint VF left behind.

[@VirtuaBros]

Elton Borges that's a good way of looking at it. Well put.

[@TheBengalDragon]

Just to add to this, both Contra and Metal Slug use pretty much the same formula, but both games have developed and evolved their own identities.

[@ShadowBanned-o_O]

You broke it down perfectly in the video.

[@TheFoolTohru]

Virtua Fighter... is back now! "Will you continue?"

[@VirtuaBros]

@@TheFoolTohru *puts in tokens

[@stilldreaming56]

Wow the production quality of this video is really high! Keep up the content

[@VirtuaBros]

Still Dreaming Thanks glad you liked it. Once my job slows down I will hopefully be able to make more.

[@stilldreaming56]

I feel exactly the same way. I want to upload more videos but I have been busy

[@AaIsForAaliyas]

Although virtua fighter has a three button layout... I wouldnt say it is simple. It's very difficult and that comes from a really good tekken player. The move outputs were tied to framerates so it I think was more complex than a 6 or 4 button layout for fighting with no movement on tekken for block or reversals. Virtua Fighter is my favourite fighting game.like Dark Souls is better than Elder scrolls. Especially when it comes to fighting in arms and it's not shallow like elder scrolls. Anywho. I agree with the vid. I hate what tekken is now. I also hate how soul calibur is also.we need a new VF title on console NOW

[@VirtuaBros]

Personally I still really like Tekken and soul Calibur, but I certainly agree with you that the gaming landscape isn't the same without new VF titles coming out. Hopefully we will get VF 6 one day

[@RockyVegaTV]

Great video. I'm the 1,000th like btw!!!

[@VirtuaBros]

Thanks that's rad

[@pant3r04]

I love VF and Tekken a ton, and i even play them both competitively and imo i think VF is much more in depth for a game that only uses 3 buttons. And one of the reasons why i love VF so much is because there's no flashy stuff in it. No fireballs, lasers, etc. It's just legit 1 on 1 fighting and i don't get that from any other fighting game.

[@VirtuaBros]

Pant3r0 well put sir

[@MarkyPlaysPH]

I'm a tekken player, but I also play Virtua Fighter... But sadly here in the PH, tekken is more prominent.. I wish Sega would release VF on steam... I'd absolutely pick it up when they release it

[@VirtuaBros]

Not sure about steam but vf5 ultimate showdown is being released for ps4 soon in japan 😀

[@MarkyPlaysPH]

@@VirtuaBros woah.. that's pretty cool, but to be fair, PS4 was a let down for me. Dont get me wrong, I am a Playstation fan, and have ps1-4 and PS4 is indeed a great system but for online gaming, I've decided to just play on the PC. For online games and fighting games. But thanks for the heads up... I'll definately look into it

[@etrotm12thebluewolf15]

I forgot to ask years ago when i first saw this... What is the name of this game here? 2:41 Just out of curiosity because i came back to find out but i dont hear the name lol. Also I still strongly agree Virtua Fighter is definitely more important then Tekken. And thats coming from a Tekken fan.

[@jasonmontoya4749]

Your title is wrong. Vurtua Fighter WAS more important. Past tense, as today Tekken is more important than VF. Also VF depth hurt itself in the American market, I would say overly complex. There a point where depth has diminishing returns, and becomes too much. Also to say three button is more intuitive than a button-for-each-limb... that's pretty subjective. VF is a great game, but to be honest the best game experiences need great fans and companies that support them. VF is a great game, but does not the quan of three: Great game, great fans, great company. Without all three VF will always be the master, that was outgrown by his student.

[@VirtuaBros]

Jason Montoya Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I'm afraid that I must stand by my title. I feel that what you said about VF applies more to its popularity than its importance. It's like the Citizen Kane of fighting games as it invented the genre in which 3d fighters have become so popular. Also, I must respectfully disagree that Virtua Fighters complexity hurt it. What hurt it was the reluctance for online play and lack of polish (story modes, cinematics, cross over characters, various games modes, etc) in VF 5. You make a good point that great games need a great company to support it in order to help it grow in popularity. Sega has neglected VF like many of its other beloved IPs but that in no way diminishes its importance from my point of view.

[@ludi479]

Also makes it the vid click worthy. But I agree it **was,** right now it's a memory(It's contributions that led to the other 3Ds and its latest version). It is not active, or at least as active as others, during these current times. Sucks tho, lile others have said, Sega hasn't put effort on VF.

[@justxtekken6589]

well said

[@IAMUNDEREIGHTEENYO]

Exactly Jason!

[@Evilj82]

Jason Montoya everyone talks about why virtues fighter is deep , but no one actually plays it well. And you never saw VF players winning at tekken .

[@suiken3149]

I've been a Tekken fan since its earliest days with 1 and 2. But I'm starting to lose interest with the series due to the direction of the series and its vile toxic fanbase. Since Tekken 5, the series is on gradual decline in quality. I want to start trying VF, but the lack of accessibility and overall content worries me. Im playing KOFXIV these days as it have more content than both SFV and Tekken 7.

[@VirtuaBros]

suiken KOF is amazing! If you have an Xbox one you can play VF 5 FS.

yup my citys scene died after tekken5 dr it became 2 noob friendly juggles got retarded as fuck at that point and they keep adding in anime spinning characters and comeback mechanics to help scrubs play season vets. funny during tekken 5 no american could touch a korean now americans can beat koreans tekken 7 was a bad game i was sadly disappointed i wish people still played tag 1 and 5 dr online like they do with older sf n snk games

also if u like kof play kof 11 thats prob the best kof as far as new age goes has a awesome tag system so there is no stopping the flow i hate kofs when u beta a guy and u wait 20 seconds to fight again kof 11 its instant u can tag out great fast pacing its kinda like mvc in its pacing but with the classic kof feel and a great roster

[@Rotoid]

suiken agreed, lack of accessibility and contents is why I don’t play vf either

[@always_trust_all_scientists]

I worked as a games tester for electronic Arts Canada WAY WAY WAY back in the day. We had midways offroad and Virtua fighter 2 in the lunch room. Man the tournament's we had back then. To this day I feel Virtua fighter is superior to Tekken. Virtua fighter "loses" to Tekken for two reasons, the fact that it didn't concern themselves to much with the characters back story. People just don't connect as much with these characters if they don't have a cool story to them. And the name "Virtua"fighter is sooo 90's. You may as well call it "internet fighter"

[@CrowRichi]

It's simple why VF is way back on Tekken. It is character design, starting from animation to how they all look (not just esteticly but even body structure proportion) on this level is amateurs work.

[@VirtuaBros]

GameMirage keep in mind that vf5 is like a 10 year old game.

[@CrowRichi]

Tekken 4 is 16 years old, and animation has a lot smoother then any VF or DoA game. And even T2 has better fit body bones proportion structure compare to VF. Im a graphic so i know bit abaut body anatomy. Which any case im not a big fan of Tekken series either.

[@VirtuaBros]

GameMirage idk I personally think the VF games look good. VF 3 look phenomenal back in the day. None of those games have aged very well though.

[@bawitback]

grew up with virtua fighter 2 on sega saturn, always will be my favorite 3D fighter.

[@VirtuaBros]

PRINCE H4RMING I'm with you there. Best VF games would be 2, then 5, 4, 3, and 1 in my opinion.

[@GigaMan91]

Why are there so many dislikes? Is there misinformation, or do people just disagree with your argument? I thought it was informative, but I don't know your sources.

[@VirtuaBros]

People have adopted a narrative that Tekken is in a league of its own and that no other 3d fighters can be spoken of in the same breath. Most people don't even watch it and click dislike. A few people took issue with the statement that VF is deeper than Tekken. I made a video about it. It got even more dislikes.

[@SC0RPI0NFURY]

Would be cool if Yu Suzuki implemented a pvp mode in the new Shenmue 3 he is working on with Virtua Fighter gameplay

[@VirtuaBros]

SCORPIONFURY that would be pretty sweet. I remember hearing that the fighting mechanics of shenmue 3 are going to depart from that of virtua fighter, although many of the moves will still be present.

[@Mitsuraga]

What is up with that weird synth version of Akira's VF2 theme at the end of the video?

[@VirtuaBros]

Oh that's an ocremix version of the song I found. I think it sounds pretty cool personally

[@Mitsuraga]

Right on. I was hoping you knew the mix artist's name, but knowing that it's on OC should make it easy to find. Thanks! Also, I know you said he's next, but... Kage lore ETA?

[@VirtuaBros]

@@Mitsuraga it's tough for me to give an ETA on kage right now because my job has placed a lot of new responsibilities on me. I'm still in the research stage of doing project but am making progress whenever humanly possible. Sorry for the wait.

[@Mitsuraga]

Hey, it's okay, buddy! Just thought I'd ask; I appreciate the update.

[@kain185]

Important to the 3d franchise, definitely, however by stating it's more more important than another game, changes it from a discussion point to a dick measuring contest. I feel like this could have been a much better video with fewer dislikes if you focused more on VF's importance to the fighting game community, than just outright stating how more deep and complex it is to tekken.

[@VirtuaBros]

kain185 thank you for the feedback I will be doing a follow up video addressing that issue. Hopefully I will do a better job this time. :)

[@kain185]

It's cool bro. You live and you learn. I look forward to your follow up video

[@G_Travel99]

Man...you have good points out there,i totally agree than VF deserves more love than it gets (and i am a Tekken fan since i have memory of myself). But i have to respetlly disagree with your point saying that VF have a more complex gameplay than tekken...Tekken have a more varialty of moves and combos than other fighting game,And the fact than tekken have a button for each member of the body make it more real,complex and the felling of more real control than VF.Also,i played both and i feel than Tekken is way more smooth and animated than VF. But remeber,i respect your opinion,VF is a good and a revolucionary game,But i prever tekken in game complex,gameplay and real martial-arts moves than VF

[@VirtuaBros]

GTgame X thanks for commenting you make some great points and of course you are fully entitled to feel that way. I'm actually working on a followup video comparing the general depth of tekken and VF. I'm almost done with the script and video capture so please stay tuned :)

[@G_Travel99]

Oh So Jiggly Also,Great video Mam

[@G_Travel99]

Man*** /Ps: you got +1 suscriber

[@VirtuaBros]

GTgame X thanks bro

[@eljugadorescaldenc4002]

Loved your video! Great opinion and well structured! NICE!

[@VirtuaBros]

El Jugador Escaldenc thanks man I'm glad you enjoyed it :)

[@norinori6414]

This is one hell of a spicy take.

[@VirtuaBros]

If you think this one has people riled up you should see the follow up video I made. Just setting the record straight.

[@dumisatonyjohnson8145]

Virtua Fighter? Damn *Virtua Fighter* has been around since Sega Saturn 🪐 in the 1990s It's crazy that VF5-Final Showdown has been around for two console eras and ten years It's pretty ironic that Sega's VF and it's characters are so parralel to its 3D successors *Dead or Alive* (Tecmo) & *Tekken* (Namco)

[@Hairofthewolf]

Thank you for your video, yesterday i posted a question on /r/fighters on why virtua fighter never went mainstream despite being a critical acclaim by the press and the FGC.

[@VirtuaBros]

Hairofthewolf well I think that it was very mainstream in the 90s, particularly in the far East. It's still very iconic in some regions

[@Hairofthewolf]

i would advise you to change you title for " why virtua fighter is important" people get triggered easily nowadays.

[@VirtuaBros]

Hairofthewolf You're probably right. This video is sort of a response to a lot of debates I've seen online about VF not being worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as Tekken. It's not my intention to offend anyone, but I feel that it needs to be said. Thank you for your advice I appreciate you taking the time to give me some sound advice :)

[@Hairofthewolf]

my thought was that people are going to miss your point in the video and just focus on the title which diminishes the efforts you put for making the video in the first place.

[@VirtuaBros]

Hairofthewolf Perhaps. I think that the title is a bit provocative but I feel that it conveys my feelings on Virtua Fighter honestly and I would be lacking integrity to change it out of fear. I hope you can forgive the title, I need to be true to myself.

[@linkueiavenger4065]

Virtua Fighter May Be The Hardest Fighting Game series Ive Ever Played

[@mtosmash4539]

"Why Virtua Fighter Is More Important Than Tekken" lmao maybe....why Virtua Fighter is more influential? but important? LOL just sounds naive also tekken did side stepping first. made it really feel 3d. the games came out so close to each other too i feel like you just like Vf more. im having a hard time buying into any sort of objectivity here

[@VirtuaBros]

MTO Smash to me influence and importance are the same thing.

[@ThrashMetalWolf666]

Actually Battle Arena Toshinden, and Tobal no 1 introduce side steping a year before Tekken 3 was released in the arcades.

[@personaphantom5543]

I think even Soulcalibur is more important than Tekken to the fighting genre tbh Tekken is overhyped af and the fans are too sweaty they need to take a shower.

[@NihilisticIdealist]

>Tekken story and cinematics is outmatched in any other fighting games in existence Cinematics? Definitely. Story? Dear God no. Tekken's story is completely bizarre and filled with retcons, even by fighting game standards. Tekken 4 and 5's story mode was the only ones that didn't totally suck in the series. Say what you want about NetherRealm's games, but their story modes blow away the competition. Even their weakest story mode, Mortal Kombat X, is better than the story modes of other fighting games. Tekken 7 story mode, despite some entertaining cutscenes, is dreadful. Other than that, I agree. The Virtua Fighter games outclass the Tekken series in terms of depth and complexity. It's a shame that there hasn't been a new game in the series for five years. Because few fighting games match the depth and complexity of Virtua Fighter 5.

[@Noum77]

I agree that Tekken's story mode sucks

[@crashpal]

NihilisticIdealist it's not the best story true but it has a story that is considered it's strong point better than all the other games besides Mortal Kombat

[@VirtuaBros]

NihilisticIdealist I guess I'm in the minority on the Tekken stories then. I've always enjoyed how silly and over the top they are. I do wish virtua fighter had more story driven cutscenes at times, but you can't beat the gameplay!

[@VirtuaBros]

crashpal you know what story mode I really love? MK9. Johnny Cage is great in that one.

[@Xxandrew01]

NihilisticIdealist I still enjoy Siegfried"s story in Soul Calibur over any other fighting game character's story in any other fighting game.

[@raggaeldestro]

Akira had this knee attack for the love of everything I couldn't do, but I can do everything in fighting games (snk, namco, capcom, and doa). Hours I've tried to do it once. Never done it.

[@VirtuaBros]

raggaeldestro oh that 1 frame KG knee? I figured that one out recently I could show you how to do it but not do it consistently lol

[@tzodearf2596]

I can't dispute your claim. I never played Virtua Fighter. But I must say in hindsight, it was Virtua Fighter that attracted me to Tekken. I remembered those katas from the arcade and confused the old man with Tekken's Wang. I think you made your point. I hope Tekken doesn't end up in the museum tho.

[@RajaK200]

I skimmed through the soundtracks and couldn't find that beautiful ending song. Help a brother out?

[@VirtuaBros]

RajaK200 here you go my man kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmSrY6CalNSCaac

[@RajaK200]

Thanks bro. Love VF and fantastic video. I really wish there was a VF6 announcement. I feel like after Tekken 7 dropped 3D fighters are bigger than ever before, I would love to see a resurgence. Atleast Soul Calibur is coming back.

[@VirtuaBros]

RajaK200 For sure! The landscape for a new VF hasn't been this promising for a long time.

[@CriticsConfession]

There’s a reason Virtua Fighter cabs are in the fucking Smithsonian and Tekken cabs aren’t lmao

[@IAMUNDEREIGHTEENYO]

Virtua Fighter can keep the "important" label. I'm fine with Tekken keeping the "most popular" "better selling" "more accessible" and "more enjoyable" labels lol

[@VirtuaBros]

OnePunchSiana I'm just glad somebody realized that "more important" does not necessarily equate to "better than".

[@IAMUNDEREIGHTEENYO]

Oh So Jiggly Good, because I really do agree with what you said :)

[@williamproto6164]

Why does popularity matter to you? I enjoy Tekken more as well but JFC do you also enjoy Angry Birds more than every fighting game combined?

[@IAMUNDEREIGHTEENYO]

William Proto Because it means I have more people to play the game with :)

[@williamproto6164]

But both Virtua Fighter and Tekken already have more players than you could ever conceivably play with in your life time :/

[@Neonomide]

Showcasing Vampire Hunter during the first few seconds is a sign of class!

[@notasilentfilm4669]

I played both games. I think both are great. In the end I prefer Virtua Figther over Tekken. But I don’t think Virtua Figther is more Inportant than Tekken.

[@princehakeem6513]

As a doa fan I have alot of respect for Virtua Fighter. I wouldn't have my game without it 💚. I hope Vf fans can get a 6. Y'all deserve it. But I just have one question. Virtua Fighter literally inspired Dead or alive directly. From the Rock paper scissors (doa has triangle system) to fuzzy guards and mind games. It just has an ease on Vf's movement complexity. But how come no one praises doa for the similar mechanics? It's practically a spiritual successor. Not to mention how crazy fun it is

[@anthonyadja5244]

Is there ever balance patch for vf? What's changed in vf5fs? IMO if there's need balancing then it is not balance.

[@尤正瑋]

I have played both series since the beginning of the 90th. VF is by far my favorite, especially VF4 Evolution. However I also love tekken especially T3, and I am very happy to be able to play T7 on my PS4. At the beginning Tekken was not so deep, but with time they added a lot of interesting system mechanics and moves. In my opinion T7 is a very good game. I am also very high about DO6 and hope that one day we will see a new VF game from Sega.

[@VirtuaBros]

Yeah man T3 is a masterpiece and T7 is really good as well. I'm very hyped for DOA 6 too :)

[@kato093]

Im sorry but im confused about your virtua fighter amazing sony so they make the playstation a 3d machine story... Sony was making a machine for nintendo but the deal went bad so they cut ties and manufactured and published it themselves.it was supposed to be the nintendo 64. It was already planned to be a 3d machine to begin with. Or am i wrong?

[@VirtuaBros]

kato093 Actually Sony was originally planning the PlayStation to be a CD add on to the Super Nintendo and it was going to be focused on 2d games. After they cut ties with Nintendo it was Virtua Fighter that impressed them to go for architecture that was based on 3d.

[@kme321]

Tekken copied the gameplay of Virtua Fighter because Sega let Namco copy them. Both companies established a good partnership back in the day. Although I am a Tekken fan, I cannot dismiss the fact VF revolutionized 3D fighting games. Sega was a pioneer in the genre of 3D fighting games, got to give them credit.

[@VirtuaBros]

Khalid Elmekki plus the cocreator of VF directed the first two tekken games so there are bound to be similarities

[@kme321]

Virtua Bros that explains a lot. Tekken will always be my favorite fighting game but I can't be biased, Virtua Fighter is the best because Tekken would never exist without it. Same thing goes for DOA, Bloody Roar, and even game called "Vs."

[@VirtuaBros]

Khalid Elmekki It can be hard to overstate Virtua Fighter's influence on video games, that's for sure:)

[@Avenging_Archer]

Tekken fans are absolutely toxic. They remind me of a Batman, Goku or Bruce Lee fan. Nothing but babies who are afraid of facts. Guys, Tekken is still more successful and popular, but you got beat. Without VF there's no Tekken and Tekken's creators have said that publicly.

[@VirtuaBros]

Lestat220289 well out. It amazes me how many Tekken fans claim that VF is not worthy to be spoken of in the same breath as Tekken, when it was VF that Tekken has and always will have emulated.

[@simonjeremy1776]

Oh So Jiggly because VF is trash lol

[@USSJ2Otaku3084]

I've been a fan of VF ever since playing Virtua Quest that introduced me to these guys. However most play games like Tekken, SC DOA, SF and KOF, because it's more flashy and cinematic. I like Virtua Fighter because the Quest mode. My first VF was VF4. Hell even Yakuza 3 had its own version of Virtua Fighter called "The VF7".

[@VirtuaBros]

Elijah Thompson that's cool man. I like virtua quest it's pretty neat. Also, VF5FS is in Yakuza 6 :).

[@wasigupitobudiarto7767]

I remember I used to play Virtua Fighter 2 on PC then I switched to tekken 3 as I owned Ps one. Completely different game

[@VirtuaBros]

Both different and both awesome :)

[@FooFighters-x]

I miss Virtua Fighter: It seems like they've given up on it. VF5 came out in 2006 right? That was around 11 years ago. Yeah there's guest characters in Doa5 but it isnt the same. VF5FS for the xbox was lame AF yeah you got all the arcade items from the japanese arcades, but you had to purchase them via DLC. It wasnt like could you earn them ( which would of be more satisfying.) There was no quest mode or kumite either, only arcade and online. So if not online you basically spend most of your time in arcade mode or practice, if not in customization mode. Just sad to see something that i loved growing up die out like it did.

[@VirtuaBros]

I hear you. I really miss it too. If only publishers and developers would treat it with respect and give it a proper release...

[@brucenatelee]

It even had a bound system before Tekken 6! I knew they both had it, but ignored that VF5 came out a year before Tekken 6 did. Also, 3D fighter with walls and character customization.

[@mercster]

Yep... complexity through simplicity. You can have a fighter with 54372896574 button combinations, but then the "best" moves will be sussed out and the game becomes "who studied the button combinations the best". With the simplicity of VF, one must rely on skill to use the simple controls to beat the opponent.

[@jimscreechie1160]

If it's so important why isn't anyone playing it , why did it get outsold by light years apart and why has it been dead since Dead or alive was alive?

[@VirtuaBros]

Jim Screechie I think you're confusing importance and influence with popularity. These are not always equivalent.

[@brenjinLDK]

I agree with the sentiment that Virtua Fighter is historically more significant than Tekken, being that it was the 3D fighting equivalent of what Street Fighter was for 2D fighters, but a lot of the statements you made were just grandiose without justification. You'd need a video ten times longer than this to go in depth and explain the system mechanics of Virtua Fighter as well as Tekken, and even then I believe the conclusion would be that they're both different games doing different things. Both Virtua Fighter and Tekken are incredibly complex and rewarding games, but simply comparing VF's depth to an Ocean and Tekken to a lake without backing up with deeper analysis makes it an empty statement. Less buttons and easier execution doesn't make a game automatically deeper or more rewarding, it's just different in the ways it goes about providing it's experience to the player. I feel like you made a lot of leaps and conclusions without really giving objective reasons as to why you go there in this video, while using Tekken as a stepping stone. Despite that, I do appreciate your sentiment. Virtua fighter is a cool series that I wish got more love, and it's cool of you to put the effort into making something to do that, we need more of that for VF and plenty of other sega franchises.

[@VirtuaBros]

BreadedBrendon hey man I appreciate this comment. It was very thoughtful and gave me a lot to ponder over. You are correct that more analysis and time is needed to justify some of the claims I made. I intend to do so in a future video. All the best and thanks for your insightful feedback. :)

[@milosandjelkovic2610]

I will always choose 3d fighter with 100+ moves per character(tekken, vf, doa) over 2d fighter with 3 moves per character.

[@requiem8958]

Why?

[@milosandjelkovic2610]

@@requiem8958 The more moves you have the more interesting the fights are. But i occasionally play street fighter and king of fighters also.

[@requiem8958]

@@milosandjelkovic2610 You should try Guilty Gear. The Roman Cancel makes gg the most interesting Fighting game for me. Endless possibilities

[@requiem8958]

@@milosandjelkovic2610 most tekken chars only use 10% of their movelist bc the rest is trash. I like tekken too but these giant movelists are not my cup of tea.

[@13scoops]

I don't know enough about either game to give an informed opinion, but I trust your judgement because Go > Chess. Go programs are becoming strong enough to defeat the best human players, but only because they simultaneously simulate thousands of RANDOM variations and choose the one that has the best end result. They don't really know what they're doing at all lol

[@VirtuaBros]

Dakota Krafick yeah I heard that there are computers that have beaten the best human players in Asia or something like that pretty recently. I think that's really cool to be honest haha

[@adny02]

Wonderful video. Totally agree 1000+%

[@VirtuaBros]

Thanks man glad you enjoyed it :)

[@villainousgrizzly3923]

You're opening a can of worms with a clickbait title like this, lmao. Being a fan of both franchises, in terms of game design, I prefer Virtua Fighter over Tekken. It's systems are more coherent and consistent to me. They just make more sense. It's not even necessarily complex, it's just very thorough and consistent with it's rules. The overly complex deal is a myth. The basics of VF are very simple, straight forward, and easy to understand. The complexity doesn't open up until you reach high level play, since you have to start paying attention to character foot positioning on top of side turn set ups in general. My issue with Tekken and it's core game design is that it's rules are NOT as consistent or coherent as Virtua Fighter's and it's also really a lot more match up dependent because of this. Meaning the game is far less balanced, making it more akin to 2D games in that respect. Counter picking is a viable strategy in Tekken. It's not in Virtua Fighter. There also can be a few "WTF?" moments during a Tekken match. Specially with Tekken 7. Aris didn't coin the phrase "Email Harada" for no reason. Would be punishes whiffing when they really shouldn't be because of weird angles. Being unable to go for optimal damage launch punishes because of weird angles. Mid crushing IN GENERAL. Random camera side switching. Tekken's design, while consistent to a point, still has a lot of bullshit that you simply have to "deal" with when it happens and that's the part I hate about it as a game, when compared to Virtua Fighter. It doesn't have the coherency or consistency that Virtua Fighter has. But it's flashy and cool to look at to anyone and that's where it's appeal comes from. Meanwhile, with Virtua Fighter, you actually have to know and understand the game to even appreciate the cool shit that happens during a match. Otherwise, you really don't understand what you're looking at, and it's not flashy enough on the surface to keep your attention since the moves and animations in VF aren't as over the top and ridiculous as the moves and animations in Tekken. It's the typical case of "substance over style" or "style over substance". What's funny is after learning how to play Virtua Fighter, I only got more frustrated with Tekken in terms of it's game design, even though I still find the game fun to play, it just isn't as fun as Virtua Fighter to me. But Sega doesn't seem all that interested in making a new VF game so I'm stuck with Tekken, lmao.

[@VirtuaBros]

Bytesize Grizzly wow man you took the words right out of my mouth. Great comment I really enjoyed reading your take on the mechanics of both games. Thank you for sharing!

[@damokles8568]

Great breakdown

[@VirtuaBros]

yeah it was.

[@maforo85]

Bytesize Grizzly Tekken is more popular but VF is a better fighting game. Sega just dosent support it strongly. VF can be simple and very technical also. I grew up and love both VF and Tekken but you have to give where credit is due. VF pioneered 3D fighting games and it pioneered open world gaming through Shenmue (It originally started as VF RPG ). To be honest Tekken is more fun to play. (VF 2 was fun too than the latter ones) .VF will always be a beautiful and technical deep fighting system that its just a masterpiece unrivaled by any.

[@villainousgrizzly3923]

I would argue VF is more fun because it's rules are consistent with less rule breaking bullshit you have to deal with. Basic tools are always reliable in that game. That isn't the case in Tekken. Tekken might be more fun to look at, but that's only if you don't understand Virtua Fighter AT ALL. Both games are fun to watch when you understand them. But this -> clips.twitch.tv/StormyNeighborlyAnacondaSpicyBoy is the kind of bullshit you have to just deal with in Tekken that makes the game more annoying to play in comparison to Virtua Fighter.

[@thheonmnaisx]

Important depends on the context by which you mean. Virtua Fighter is definitely more important in terms of a history look back on gaming history maybe but more important to fighting games of today outside of historical influence is a matter of opinion. Economically Tekken can be argued as being more important for gaming due to how well its popularity turned out. As you can see labeling something as 'important' depends on context. And I think your video hit the nail on the head in expressing the historical importance. It is also important in the hearts of those who cherish the series much like Tekken is important to those who cherish its series as well. Also this video was published August 2017 it says, pretty sure a story about AI beating Go players came out in around January 2016. That's an easily google-able fact check before you uploaded this video and I'm sure what's in this video didn't take over 6+ months to produce so that should've definitely been caught.

[@VirtuaBros]

thheonmnaisx Yes that fact about Go did elude me. I did do a Google search on that but the way I worded it influenced the results and filtered out stories about computers being able to be Go players. I think you are about the 11th person to point this out. Yes, I made an error about Go. Also, I agree with you about Tekken being more financially successful and more popular than VF. To me important means innovative and original rather than popular :)

[@thheonmnaisx]

Oh So Jiggly would you make a detailed video helping to explain the balance and another on the complexity of VF? People say it about every game they favor; it doesnt sit right as there are things each game has that others don't. There are technicalities that some games share and others don't. The execution level of games is different even among many games but if we are measuring depth or which one is more complex then there has to be something significantly substantiating. Like how we can mathematically calculate and measure that Go is more complex than Chess and Chess is more complex than Checkers. And we can mathematically measure the depth of a lake verses the depth of an ocean. I have played many console verses game from the original Nintendo to current gen consoles, including Virtua Fighter and Tekken. One thing I do agree with is that you can't mash in VF5 whereas in Tekken mid and low level players can be beat by button mashers and spammers. Every single input and choice in VF must be deliberate, it kind of forces that onto players, which makes it seem less accessible. That aspect, depending on how you look at it and its difference in VF and Tekken can be more or less intuitive. But that doesn't mean it's more or less complex. I'd argue that at the mid level VF makes it easier to know what's right to do. And even for beginners of VF they'd advance faster than a beginner of Tekken (assuming no advice or guidance was sought after or given for either game and no prior fighting game experience). The newcomer of Tekken would choose options that aren't of a decent competitive tournament viable level even while playing against decent mid level players, but a newcomer to VF would sooner reach a decent mid level of play. Now if we consider that aspect, Tekken seems like the deeper game, but that's only measuring the intuitiveness of the game and is not mathematically defined but psychologically defined. And psychology of this is a slippery slope. Tekken has the illusion of making new players think button mashing and spamming can get them wins on almost anybody, while VF you don't get that as much. So there's a case that psychologically Tekken might be the least intuitive and therefore gives it greater complexity. But that's speaking purely mentally though as that's still not something mathematically quantifiable.

[@VirtuaBros]

thheonmnaisx Did you see my other video called "Why Virtua Fighter Is Deeper than Tekken"? I do address some of the aspects of quantifying the nature of depth and give a few examples demonstrating why VF's depth overshadows Tekken's. However it is not an exhaustive treatment of the subject as that would take several hours of video to do thoroughly.

[@thheonmnaisx]

Oh So Jiggly I saw the video but felt it did poorly to explain, and because of that it is probably why I didn't agree. I hear people talk about VF depth and I want to know it but nobody ever seems to put out a legitimate however long video or set of videos to explain the depth. I understand how to play and understand the game mechanics but that's all most videos show. Every other fighting game including Tekken has footsies, micro spacing, option selects, etc. The difference I find with VF, Tekken and DOA is simply that because they are 3D, there is another aspect to movement in a 3D plane which means there will be wall and corner situations that are weird/different that players have to account for along with different wall systems entirely, even floors are somewhat different. Tekken specifically has floor breaks to extend comboes, Tekken 6 had bounds, Tekken 7 has tailspin. One aspect both Tekken and VF seem to not have emphasis on is air to air and anti-air space control that other fighting games have. So in a sense (to me at least) there's a list of things each game has but no game is "the most complex" or has "the most depth" because each one is lacking skill areas that players in other fighting games display in their own. I'm not someone with a hard dead set mentality on this issue. I just need to see the actual proof in all its content before I make a judgement. People said the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm system didn't have depth, it turns out it offered a good wealth of depth but it wasn't balanced so people wrote it off beforehand simply because at face value it was super simple and obviously not balanced. The system itself was quite unique with the substitutions but it lacked in the combo depth of the system. Then some games reward execution and combos much more than other aspects so even though the game may have a ton of potential depth it may not be as valuable as other areas of improvement. Marvel vs Capcom Infinite is all about making your opponent block a long lasting move in order to get a mixup that opens them up then reset them into another situation to block and mix them up again. So that game rewards combos and using options that make the opponent block. The bad part about its combo system is that there are damage cap tiers that across the board for groups of characters so the game just auto drops their combo. So at the same time of rewarding players for learning combos, it punishes them from trying to get more damaging combos as there's not a way to actually structure combos now; the combo system is just "if it will fit do it as you want" as that kind of plug and play combos with not as much true structure behind them except to set the opponent up to block again instead of getting higher amounts of guaranteed damage. So that whole game in particular seems to be meant for a rinse repeat type of playstyle which can cut down on some of the perceived depth whereas the interactions leading to the blocking is actually where the player depth comes in at, also when to get out of combos, and other aspects. But outside of that, once a player blocks a long enough move for their opponent to capitalize on is when almost all depth leaves the match, as the only aspect that matters then is whether they have 2 bars to get out and when they plan on using it in order to counter it. UMvC3 put too much emphasis on combos as well because you need to kill the point or anchor character (occasionally the assist character) immediately depending on the team. So it had the same aspect of make the opponent block just not to the extreme of MvCi. The 2 games made depth tradeoffs so not only would you need to prove depth, you'd need to prove how important those aspects of depth and each one of them is to that game. I think VF shines in the necessity of the aspects of its depth whereas other games it doesn't matter as much to the aspects of winning. An example is a top player in MvC3 can't win without knowing combos but can go without the special tag switching that's an entirely dedicate system in the game that is taught in the tutorial yet combos to death aren't taught. A professional player in super smash bros can win without using combos depending on their character and even without perfect pivots. A professional street fighter 4 player has to know option selects. Each of these are aspects that play into the depth and perceived depth. So before we can judge that we'd need to understand every aspect of high level play in VF. Which means somebody needs to produce that information for others who aren't pro VF players to observe. Every sport has statistics, how well those statistics works depends on the sport itself. Video games for the most part have low amounts of randomness so the statistics for them should be quite accurate. If VF has the higher depth then the statistics once we get the information should reflect that. The sample size from current competitive play was just too small compared to other more popular fighting games where there are over 1000 competitors to observe in physical settings across from each other throughout a year, and hundreds of thousands of online matches. I'm not a sports statistician but inquiring a statistician and sports analyst on how they calculated other sports depths could yield findings for video games including boosting the mental aspect score that competitive video games and esports have in comparison to other sports such as Hockey, Soccer, etc. We just don't have enough data and defined stats to in video games yet. We have player stats now but in game we don't have stats like in basketball to tell how well a player is doing verses their skill in each area measured. In basketball there's assists, rebounds, possessions, minutes played per game, individual game stats, season stats, career stats, etc. All of that tells us things about its depth. Soccer and Hockey kind of lack possession stats so they have a higher randomness area of the game and a lower amount of success when statistics are applied to them due to outliers that affect the result.

[@binho2224]

@@thheonmnaisx Sorry for the 5 years later reply. But your comment is very interesting to the Fighting Games take on depth. But, man, was it hard to read. I had to copy it to a document and separate it in paragraphs. Did you know your comment has 3 pages of text? But thank you for your take on it. I also hear people saying it has so much depth than any other fighter, but nobody ever fully explain why. They say it is complex, but maybe because it is different and unique? Here is your comment with paragraphs (it makes it less intimidating to read it, imo): "Oh So Jiggly I saw the video but felt it did poorly to explain, and because of that it is probably why I didn't agree. I hear people talk about VF depth and I want to know it but nobody ever seems to put out a legitimate however long video or set of videos to explain the depth. I understand how to play and understand the game mechanics but that's all most videos show. Every other fighting game including Tekken has footsies, micro spacing, option selects, etc. The difference I find with VF, Tekken and DOA is simply that because they are 3D, there is another aspect to movement in a 3D plane which means there will be wall and corner situations that are weird/different that players have to account for along with different wall systems entirely, even floors are somewhat different. Tekken specifically has floor breaks to extend combos, Tekken 6 had bounds, Tekken 7 has tailspin. One aspect both Tekken and VF seem to not have emphasis on is air to air and anti-air space control that other fighting games have. So in a sense (to me at least) there's a list of things each game has but no game is "the most complex" or has "the most depth" because each one is lacking skill areas that players in other fighting games display in their own. I'm not someone with a hard dead set mentality on this issue. I just need to see the actual proof in all its content before I make a judgement. People said the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm system didn't have depth, it turns out it offered a good wealth of depth but it wasn't balanced so people wrote it off beforehand simply because at face value it was super simple and obviously not balanced. The system itself was quite unique with the substitutions but it lacked in the combo depth of the system. Then some games reward execution and combos much more than other aspects so even though the game may have a ton of potential depth it may not be as valuable as other areas of improvement. Marvel vs Capcom Infinite is all about making your opponent block a long lasting move in order to get a mixup that opens them up then reset them into another situation to block and mix them up again. So that game rewards combos and using options that make the opponent block. The bad part about its combo system is that there are damage cap tiers that across the board for groups of characters so the game just auto drops their combo. So at the same time of rewarding players for learning combos, it punishes them from trying to get more damaging combos as there's not a way to actually structure combos now; the combo system is just "if it will fit do it as you want" as that kind of plug and play combos with not as much true structure behind them except to set the opponent up to block again instead of getting higher amounts of guaranteed damage. So that whole game in particular seems to be meant for a rinse repeat type of playstyle which can cut down on some of the perceived depth whereas the interactions leading to the blocking is actually where the player depth comes in at, also when to get out of combos, and other aspects. But outside of that, once a player blocks a long enough move for their opponent to capitalize on is when almost all depth leaves the match, as the only aspect that matters then is whether they have 2 bars to get out and when they plan on using it in order to counter it. UMvC3 put too much emphasis on combos as well because you need to kill the point or anchor character (occasionally the assist character) immediately, depending on the team. So it had the same aspect of make the opponent block just not to the extreme of MvCi. The 2 games made depth tradeoffs so not only would you need to prove depth, you'd need to prove how important those aspects of depth and each one of them is to that game. I think VF shines in the necessity of the aspects of its depth, whereas other games it doesn't matter as much to the aspects of winning. An example is a top player in MvC3 can't win without knowing combos but can go without the special tag switching that's an entirely dedicate system in the game that is taught in the tutorial, yet combos to death aren't taught. A professional player in super smash bros can win without using combos, depending on their character, and even without perfect pivots. A professional street fighter 4 player has to know option selects. Each of these are aspects that play into the depth and perceived depth. So before we can judge that we'd need to understand every aspect of high level play in VF. Which means somebody needs to produce that information for others who aren't pro VF players to observe. Every sport has statistics, how well those statistics works depends on the sport itself. Video games for the most part have low amounts of randomness so the statistics for them should be quite accurate. If VF has the higher depth then the statistics, once we get the information, should reflect that. The sample size from current competitive play was just too small compared to other more popular fighting games where there are over 1000 competitors to observe in physical settings across from each other throughout a year, and hundreds of thousands of online matches. I'm not a sports statistician but inquiring a statistician and sports analyst on how they calculated other sports depths could yield findings for video games including boosting the mental aspect score that competitive video games and esports have in comparison to other sports such as Hockey, Soccer, etc. We just don't have enough data and defined stats to in video games yet. We have player stats now but in game we don't have stats like in basketball to tell how well a player is doing verses their skill in each area measured. In basketball there's assists, rebounds, possessions, minutes played per game, individual game stats, season stats, career stats, etc. All of that tells us things about its depth. Soccer and Hockey kind of lack possession stats so they have a higher randomness area of the game and a lower amount of success when statistics are applied to them due to outliers that affect the result."

[@picassomarble5643]

Tekken fandom is like a smaller dragon ball fandom . And that's from someone who loves both and is new to virtua fighter .

[@PRODAt3]

I'm sorry, yours was a great argument but I still think that Street Fighter control scheme is better. I played virtua fighter 2 as part of a minigame in yakuza 5. Felt like playing slow-mo. This might be a limitation of 3d fighting games though , i dunno, only other 3d fighting game I played was tekken 3 some 20 years ago and I remember it as slower than SF2.

[@lowkey6971]

I like both played both and I agree with the option of the video without V.F. there would be I huge delay in the Evo of gaming just got give credit to V F designers for what they did

[@VirtuaBros]

lowkey 69 that's a great point!

[@lowkey6971]

Oh So Jiggly o felt it was true fighting games drive games if the game is 3d odds r VF made those games possible thy 4the reply

[@VirtuaBros]

lowkey 69 very true

[@1234ssjgoku]

Comparison videos like this really bothers me. Belittling one game and complimenting the other. I just don't understand the hate Tekken is getting from the FGC. Both are equally good and both keep the 3d fighting genre alive.

[@VirtuaBros]

Gerardo Morales I too enjoy both games. I never intended to belittle Tekken I apologize if my video came across that way. They are both amazing franchises and I want them both to succeed.

[@1234ssjgoku]

Oh So Jiggly I understand, I do apologize if I seemed a bit triggered. Nevertheless, your video had a lot of interesting information regarding VF. It makes me wonder why Sega wouldn't keep up with this franchise, it's a great fighting game.

[@VirtuaBros]

Gerardo Morales You are not alone in wondering that. Sega has neglected many of their best franchises for many years. However, Shenmue 3 is coming soon, Sonic Mania and forces look promising, and sega is starting to port a lot of their old games to mobile devices. At this rate we may get a VF 6 in the near future ;)

[@Neonomide]

Agreed on ~ all you say and I love VF, but was totally sold by your music choice of VF2 Akira remix at the start.

[@quelldieu7263]

why theres no new Virtua now?

[@blackrandall]

I find Tekken pretty complex, could someone explain how VF is more complex than Tekken please?

[@VirtuaBros]

John Wonderburg Tekken is very complex. I'm actually working on a video that will address your question right now. Please stay tuned :)

[@brucenatelee]

Aside from button inputs, it de-emphisizes the need to do combos all the time and characters very much have more than just animation differences, as characters seem to have their own gimmicks of sorts that makes their styles seem more than visual, aside from other generic fighting game info (frames and stuff). Aoi can do reversals from all positions, Wolf has a clench for throws, Vanessa literally has two fighting styles, Jacky has an auto-parry for punches, etc. Also, the controls can seem stiff, but only for requiring precise inputs and timing. The only thing it really lacks is in its presentation with generic characters, old-ish sound effects (especially the voice recordings), and basic character designs. It's a game where there's more specifics than Tekken, where you can't just land a hit on somebody with almost any move. Just check out Virtua Fighter 4 and then go to training mode. That's the only game that went in DEEP AS FUCK on how the game works. Even later games didn't do that anymore, and Final Showdown seemed more dumbed down than the original VF5.

[@ForceofNature99]

VF's depth comes from the overall mechanics being a lot deeper than Tekken's. Movement is more complex in Virtua Fighter (such as dashes-into-sidesteps, offensive and defensive sidesteps for instance). There are proper side hit statuses in VF5FS where hitting an opponent on the side can completely change the properties of a stun leading to different combo scenarios (This is accentuated more if a move connects on CH too). Frame data is a much bigger deal in VF5FS than Tekken 7 since the frame traps and potential follow-ups on block, NH or CH can be pretty significant. Tekken 7 has no closed or open stance, which VF5FS and DOA5LR have. Wall combos are more complex in VF5FS than Tekken 7. VF5FS's throw game and throw break system is more complex than Tekken 7's especially with throws being unreactable at i10 frames and many more types of throws. There's other things like the JF's or "Guard Breaks of Doom" but those are more character specific and Tekken's execution can be fairly high on certain characters. Ironically the 4-attack button scheme of Tekken (LP, RP, LK, RK) arguably is the primary element that is more complex than VF's 3-button scheme (P, K, G). I.e. There's a bit more variety to Tekken's attack strings than VF's and string memorization is a bigger deal in Tekken 7 than VF5FS (though both series require the player to have solid MU knowledge to know how to punish certain strings). With all this said, at a base level, Neither VF5FS nor Tekken 7 are particular more difficult to pick-up-and-play than the other. Once you get used to how VF operates, it becomes second nature (only some JF related techniques will occupy a lot of your practice time along with punishing certain strings on reaction, similar to in Tekken). Also once you learn Korean Back Dash, Tekken 7's movement feels more intuitive than VF's "dashes/backdashes-into-sidesteps" movement.

[@Kr1sTom330]

@CAVEMAN CRAZED shut up stupid ass

[@itsstillthinking1999]

I remember when i picked up the original Tekken ( at this point i had a Saturn for a few years and was constantly told the launch version of Vf sucked in comparison) and i have to say Virtua Fighter has aged wayyyyy better than Tekken. From the controls to the visual style seem to have a timless charm to them and to this day have never Really enjoyed tekken

[@VirtuaBros]

itsstillthinking1999 VF just has that special something my friend :)

[@marplatense31]

I personally prefer Tekken, but I do recognize that it wouldn't exist without Virtua Fighter first, ultimately making VF more important.

[@VirtuaBros]

Nice. Yeah tekken is great fun.

[@marplatense31]

@@VirtuaBros As of now, I've only played Virtua Fighter 2, Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution and Virtua Fighter 5: Final Showdown and I've enjoyed all three (although Virtua Fighter 2 is really tough). I'd like to play Virtua Fighter 1 and 3 but unfortunately, to my knowledge, Sega hasn't re-released those games on modern systems. They re-release Sega Genesis games all the time, but two classic arcade games? Nah. Is a Virtua Fighter collection at least too much to ask for? Sorry about that. Rant over.

[@JCabCSM]

Ive played with both VF and Tekken. Both games are exceptional. However, I find the gameplay of VF easy and entertaining with less tendency to bore me out as I play more. Although easy, the chain combos I can do with VF is better as it has it’s complexities. Of course this is just my opinion. Nothing more.

[@link2012_KSH]

In case input left right punch combo, pressing two buttons step by step is more pleasing than pressing just one button two times. So I prefer tekken.

[@sirc7777]

Nice video bro

[@VirtuaBros]

sirc7777 thanks :)

[@RKNELIAS]

I just wish people still played this hell of a game. I would love a next-gen VF for PC and PS4. Or just make a remake of 4 for steam or something. ffs Sega, is now your opportunity to get on the FG market again!

[@VirtuaBros]

Libe Jenkins preach!

[@hamdishadow1]

VF didn't evolve through the time but tekken did i mean in the gameplay mecanic... compare VF1 and VF5 it only in graphic you can see improvement nothing else. .. compare TK1 and TK7 and you will understand what's wrong with VF