Experimenting With Different Roast Levels

[@jefflucas6062]

Great video. Thank you! I have an addiction to East African coffees especially around 11.5%. They can be hard to extract. I find a finer grind, hotter water and smaller pours helps complete the cup flavors. I enjoy all your videos. They've helped my roasting journey a lot. 👍

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks Jeff. I appreciate your comments. Maybe I should have ground a little finer. I have used the AeroPress as well as the Kalita for that roast to see how that might affect the notes. The AeroPress was a little more juicy but it still seemed a little too light for me. I want more fruit and that seemed to be lacking. I will try a finer grind next time. Thanks for sharing and for watching my videos. I'm glad they have helped your roasting journey!

[@luigicollins3954]

Nice video, Mike! Do you know what? As I watched this video? I felt like I was watching myself roasting my own coffee. Seriously. I’m currently having fun and some similar experiences to you as I roast my Dry Processed Rwandan coffee. My very first roast of any coffee might rarely have a wonderful taste. But most of the time I get two main things from my very first roast, the Dry End temperature, and the First Crack temperature. I have tried to standardize all my roasts to 350 g of green coffee. Steps of my roast done with The Bullet, are explained in each paragraph below. Please remember, the Bullet uses an IRBT (infrared) temperature sensor for the beans which will show a higher temperature reading than a thermocouple bean probe (which most other drum roasters probably use). First, I look for green bean defects and toss them out (very very few, actually). Then I have to guess at two things 1) my total roast time; and 2) my preheat temperature. Most of the time for my batch size, and a Dry Prcess, I estimate a total roast time of about 10 minutes, and a preheat temp of 392 F. Then I plan my phase percentages, let’s say 49%, 38%, and 13%. How did I get those percentages figured out you might ask? It’s simple. Just take a guess after asking some roasting friends you know who have a lot of experience! 😀 So for a 10-minute roast, Drying Phase is 4 min 54 sec; Middle Phase is 3 min 48 sec; and Final Development Phase is 1 min 18 sec. Then I calculate what my average rate of rise (ROR) must be during the Middle Phase. That value = (First Crack Temp - Dry End Temp)/(Middle Phase time). For my Rwandan coffee, Dry End is at 345 F, and First Crack is at 397 F. So Middle Phase average ROR = (397-345)/3.8 = 14 F/min. Then finally I start my roast, controlling temperature so Dry End will occur right around 5 minutes. Then when I hit Dry End, all I do is try to control ROR to be an average of about 14° F and listen for First Crack. Then when First Crack occurs, I wait 1 min 18 sec after that, then drop. Mike, I found it very interesting that you don’t seem to dropped your roast after a certain Final Development time has gone by, but rather at a certain temperature. Maybe others here decide their final drop point based on bean color? It’s all so interesting!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Great comments Lou. I am grateful you are sharing these experiences. With regards to the temperature for dry end, I pay more attention to the color change for every roast. I have found that environmental conditions (maybe it is windy outside or the air conditioning is on and it is cooler inside than a previous roast) as well as any change in the energy settings compared to a previous roast with the same batch size, can influence the dry end temperature. So, Environmental conditions and changes to energy settings can influence this. That is why i really stress bean color. The temps you are using and methods are great for estimating phase/events and their times. Now to the ROR Average. This is a nice way to do that calculation. What I have found is there are times where I may want to depart from a consistently declining ROR through the entire roast so the average is still correct I guess, but the ROR curve is different. Let me explain. There have been times when I want to lengthen my time in development BUT at a lower rate of rise to keep the ending bean temperature from getting too high, which ultimately affects bean color and taste. So, I dip my ROR a little as I enter first crack to slow down the temp increase progress without going flat. It is an interesting experience and I have roasted some great coffee this way. I just need to be careful not to flick or crash my ror. Michael and I did this on our PNG coffee last year. Development time is really important and I do pay attention to that BUT I am equally watching my temps. Temps are not a perfect measurement because they are influenced by roast momentum. Rob Hoss has talked about temps being as much as a 7 degree different in ending temps based on this. So, color is king along with the time being a really important factor as well as the temps. I hope that makes sense. I would love to hear Rob talk more about this sometime.

[@diegoandresv]

Thanks Mike, I really appreciate your videos :)

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Glad you like them! What are you roasting with Diego?

[@triston574]

Would you ever consider a video series that consists of dialing in a new coffee for you? Take a new coffee, show us what you do with density, prossesing, etc. then through the roasting process multiple times until you get the best you can (within reason) out of the coffee. It would be really cool to see how you roast to flavor.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

hi triston. yes, that is something I hope to do in the near future. your talking about the drum roaster right?

[@triston574]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab sweet I'm looking forward to it! I mean any roaster is cool but I did have the drum in mind :).

[@thr3shold]

This helped fill in some blank spots in my understanding. Thanks!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Glad it helped! Thank you for watching. What are you roasting with?

[@thr3shold]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab complete DIY, borosilicate glass cylinder electric drum roaster. 600g-800g capacity.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Oooo, how do you like it? How long does it take to roast your coffee (time to dry, time to first crack, total roast time). Sounds interesting.

[@thr3shold]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab it's the only thing I've ever roasted on so I don't have anything to compare to. When I was trying to roast as quickly as possible I would hit DE in a little under 4 minutes and first crack at 6:30 or so. Now, I'm trying to really control the middle phase and lengthen it out and still not go under 10 minutes. I'm sure due to my inexperience, the roasts tend to go more quickly than I'd like.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

10 minutes is a great place to start for total roast time. Depending on the type of coffee you may want to lengthen the total roast time or even shorten it a little. First step is to control your roaster and aim for your target event times (dry, first crack, drop) and from there start to change your profile, and taste the difference.

[@Poundy]

One thing that I would suggest you do (I may have suggested this in the past as well) is change your Artisan settings to reduce the wasted space at the bottom of the display. You want to have your lower temperature limit to be say 200, which will help exaggerate the curve from charge temperature to TP to drop. You can also reduce the top of the axis if you like as you're unlikely ever to roast up to 500 degrees. Using that extra resolution can help you see some of the micro trends in the roast that the ROR flattens out or delays. Absolutely agree, experiment is key ! All my roasts are experiments 🤣

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Brett, Yea, you have suggested that and I did change it several times. I think when I change profiles it somehow defaults back on the timeline? The 500-degree temp was another air roaster max on the (inlet temperature). I tend to watch the digital display on Artisan to the right of the screen as I roast while paying attention to micro changes but you are right, it would be helpful to see them on the graph as well. Are you doing any drum roasting? It's mostly air roasting right? How do you approach a light roast?

[@Poundy]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab passionate home roaster who roasts for friends and fam, in a BlueKing 2.5kg drum roaster (same as Buckeye 5 but with australia gas compliance). Also have an older North 500g drum roaster same as yours that I rarely use now. My approach to light, when I roast that way which isn't often, is very similar to yours - start way lower charge temp and delay gas addition, and watch ROR carefully. I always find it's harder to repeat roasts when going light, even things like small charge weight changes have a more pronounced effect than when roasting darker to my normal profiles

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Have you noticed a smoother ROR with the larger volume batches compared to the 500 gram? I'm assuming the mass of beans provides more consistent temperature data. Are you roasting indoors? How often are you roasting Brett, you must have a lot of friends and family. Nice. Yea, repeat roasts on a manual machine is hard. It goes back to what you said about variables and consistency. I think it is more difficult for light roasts because there is a much narrower target with temperatures and times compared to medium or darker roasts. More chances to miss the mark.

[@Poundy]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab I was more meaning when I roast different batch sizes in my current roaster (based on requirements, perhaps 2100g vs 1700g) that the impact of that when aiming light is more pronounced than when carrying a lot more momentum intending to roast darker. a 2100g darker roast and a 1700g darker roast I use much less "different" control adjustments than I would if trying the same different batches light. And I don't do much at all on the 500g these days, my regulator only really allows me to do ~400g max batches which means it's a long day of roasting to get meaningful quantities - I have taken a decision to roast only every 4 weeks just so I don't consume all my weekends roasting/cleaning/packing/shipping. I tend to do about 12kg roasted coffee every 4 weeks. My roast space is the garage with two roller doors open and the roaster at the opening and venting out - rather agricultural but hey I live in the country 😄 Fully agree that light roasts are much harder to get close to repeating, because you're much closer to the edge of stalling and keeping much less moentum intentionally in the roast. Don't fully agree that a "manual" roaster is a hard thing to do repeatable roasts, but I do think you need to have well documented background profile with gas and air adjustments to follow, and if you don't do that then it's easy to be off target. But it's always fun to try to get really accurate repeatable roasts. For me I always have things going on that distract me, canning up the last roast, making sure I have greens ready for the next etc, so mine are often "unique" but in general similar results.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Brett, since you are logging using artisan and you are marking your gas, air changes during the roast, where are those displaying? You suggest that i " lower temperature limit to be say 200," but if I do that I will loose the open area below to display the gas and air changes. Would you mind sharing your artisan profile with me? If yes, please go to the "about" page on my youtube channel and scroll down. There will be a link where you can email me. Thanks for sharing your experiences with me. I have an opportunity to roast on a 12 k roaster in the next couple of months. Do you have an tips/suggestions or anything that might prepare me for that experience?

[@shanewilson2152]

Great video Mike, l lurked a lot from this video .

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Glad it helped Shane. Still trying to gain a better understanding of the different methods used to roast light. Hope you're doing well. Thanks for watching.

[@erharddinges8855]

You have many possibilities to source great coffees! So you decide phase-times in advance. Would be interesting to interprete this roast by commenting ET. Overall it is interesting how to detemine the criteria for a light roast .

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Erhard. Thanks for watching. Yes, there are good number of green coffee sources here in the USA. Yes, I do plan my phase times in advance. They change based on the style of roast I desire, the type of coffee I am roasting, and the batch size. With regards to ET (Exhaust Temperature) what questions did you have?

[@erharddinges8855]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab IT is only about controlling a roast Via It. Seems to work good with dense greens.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

ET can also show trends. So if my ET is steady and my gas is steady then an increase in ET can indicate the beans are begining to release pressure and also begin to give off heat. This happens on high density and low density beans. It isn't always noticible depending on the sensitivity of the probes and your logging software. Roasters use this sometimes to determine first crack.

[@jimschofield968]

Sounds like the same tasting notes I got from my medium light roast of Kenya Kiambu AA Top. Cupping presented berries, but after resting, gave way to more cranberry/plum and black sugar with a light body. I also need to work on mid-phase extention on this bean. Really enjoyed this roast-along, cheers!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Jim! How are you enjoying your new roaster? I’m excited to hear more about that. Especially the heating element and how it works. So how long is your total roast on your Kenyan AA? Be interested if you share your profile. It was an enjoyable coffee, and I was very pleased with the result.

[@jimschofield968]

Surething I'll do so when I fire up the roaster again It's a Rubasse.....Near Infrared heating so pretty responsive to heat changes on the panel.

[@TheCaptainsCoffee]

Thanks so much for sharing your roast plan and walking through this! I don't have a Mill City but I'm going to try the general curve on our Aillio Bullet since I usually aim for a lighter roast with that coffee and see how your roast compares! Your comment about how these beans really like to soak up heat jived with my experience as well. They will absolutely take off on you haha

[@ToddParker]

hey captain, I just ordered the Ethiopia Sidama Bombe Daniso Horsa Natural from you; wondering how this roast plan will work on that bean? Comparable? I have a behmor I am not happy with, but that is what I will try to use on this bean. I am a first time order with you, I guess I will learn in a couple days, but does your packaging offer roast advice; whether city, city+ etc? I thank you!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Todd, David might chime in here but if he doesn't see the message, give him a call. I'm sure he will be glad to talk with you about this. Thanks for watching my video by the way.... AND thank you for being a subscriber!

[@TheCaptainsCoffee]

@@ToddParker Hey thanks so much! Mike's roast plan here is certainly a fine way to approach that coffee! I usually like my naturals a little lighter with really short development (as low as 10-12% depending on the bean), but hey that's why we love home roasting, you can roast em to your liking! I always suggest trying a few approaches and see what suits you in the cup. As for the Behmor, I haven't roasted with one in years so Mike will certainly have a better answer than me with that roaster :) And yup, all the info you need will be on the bags when you order from us!

[@ToddParker]

is a anaerobic coffee going to take off and dry faster than a standard natural from Ethiopia? Learning how that nuance happens would be helpful. Thanks!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

i'm not sure. Anaerobic is a fermentation process while it is in water. So, there are enzymatic reactions taking place during that time that might be different than a natural. Cage Imports did a webinar on Fermentation that was really interesting. One of their points what how much variation the Anerobic fermentation process can be from one grower/processor to another. There isn't one specific controlled practice so "Aenerobic Process" can vary. I think we will have to just do our first roast with some assumptions (if it is dry or washed) and then go for it and learn from our first roast. By the way, this coffee was a "Limited Oxygen Natural". So, it is a natural but how the "limited oxygen" impacts the roasting process I don't know. I think the natural vs washed along with the moisture content has more of a determining factor. I'm making assumptions based on my past experience.

[@jlantz3691]

Enjoyed the video, as always. Thanks for keeping it real. If you'd have nailed the roast your first attempt, my ego may have been damaged. 😂 Your points on consistency are so important. By knowing and controlling as many variables as you can, you'll be able to discern the effect of any changes that much more easy. Quick question: what are the effects (good or not so good) of shortening development time? Thanks.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

I have plenty of roasts that aren’t what I was aiming for. And of those a few were just downright bad but surprisingly most of them were decent and a couple were better than I could have imagined. Regarding shortening development time influencing flavor…. At first crack you will have higher acidity, some sweetness depending on the coffee and the body will be light. I mentioned in my video an almost tea-like feel and taste. It was a more delicate cup. As you go further into development, carmelization continues to take place giving more sweetness and the acidity begins to mellow., there is your balanced cup. Then the “roastiness” flavor notes begin to form, the acidity starts to fade completely and they begin their journey towards bitterness and dark notes before ash. The interesting part of this is how quickly you move through these changes impacts flavor. To slow and you have flat boring coffee. Total roast time is something I am trying to get a better understanding. Thanks for your comment and for watching J !

[@jlantz3691]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab That all makes sense. The lesson is to probably make small changes, and then settle on a place you love. Agree that even most "mistake" roasts are completely drinkable, and a few are "wow, had no idea this would taste so good".

[@stevenreeves4766]

Hi Mike, it has been a while since I talked with you. I have been working on getting my roasts better at the pour over level which is going great. However now I have an espresso machine and am playing with some lighter roasts. I have having trouble getting the chaff to release from the bean when not roasted as long. do you have any advise or videos on this? or some techniques on lighter roasting? also what is your opinion of rest time for coffee to be used for espresso? Thanks Mike!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Steven, great to hear from you again! I’m glad you are enjoying your roasting journey. Yea, light roasts do seem to have the clingy chaff. For me, the chaff sticks on both the outside skin and the centerline. I agitate the beans in a bucket or the cooling tray to knock off the majority of the chaff. I also use my hand and rub the beans together. If I’m sharing I won’t put my hands all over the beans. Ahh, roasting for espresso. So roasting light has been a real eye-opener for me. Recently I roasted a fully developed light roast (20% development) for a 10 minute roast. Most of the time I have been dropping the coffee early to keep the temp low and the time in development is shorter. This gives me more acidity. I mention all of that because the way you roast light will give you different results for your espresso. So, do you want a fruity or citric acidity? Consider the shorter development. Do you want a lighter balanced roast, go for the fully developed light roast. Rest time general rules are a longer rest time for lighter roasts and shorter for darker roasts. I like 4 - 5 day rest time for lighter roast. Was that helpful?

[@stevenreeves4766]

Thank you so much! good starting points. I will let you know how it goes.@@VirtualCoffeeLab

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

Hey Mike, I hope you are doing well. I had another little set back from an infection but i am home now and judt got done roasting a batch of Costa Rican honey processed. I am still on the cube, however i did get a much better gas camping stove. This batch i preheated the cube then dropped the beans. I rotated the cube without heat for 30 seconds. When i turned on the gas i had a low flame for 1:30 Slowly i bumped the heat until it was medium plus and let it coast until maybe 6:45. I bumped it up to medium high for about 30 seconds. Then i slowly began to drop the heat. 1st crack was at 10:00 I had medium low heat for the next 1:30ish then i pulled the beans. I know i cant convey information better than this but what do you think about this profile. I fully understand you cant give me specific answers but from what you can say, what do you think? Would getting the specific density help me in my situation. I saw your video on density, hell... i have seen probably all your videos and listen to them as i nap. Thought, advice, suggestions? Thank you so very much. You are the man! It feels so good to be able to roast again. Relaxing. 😊😊

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi David, glad you are back to roasting. How did the coffee taste? Can you share what time you reached dry end (when did the coffee get to yellow? It’s kind of hard to make recommendations without seeing the profile but generally speaking with a drum roaster you will want to try and get your coffee dry in the 5 - 6 minute range… more or less. This sets your pace for the entire roast. Sound like first crack came a little late. Try aiming for 8-9 minutes. Let me know about the yellow time and how it tastes.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

And thank you for watching! I’m glad it is helpful!

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

@VirtualCoffeeLab OK, yea. OK... that makes total sense. I was timid with the beans at the start. My thought process was that the beans should have low heat for the 1st 1.5 minutes. I'll adjust that time to the 1st 30 seconds. Idk off hand what my drying time was. That would explain why the coffee was good but lacked that... that "pop" one could say it was flat. I still would like to pay you for a live online consult, but it will be in the next few months. Aside from my ostomy expenses, my wife's birthday is coming up, and we go to the airshow soon. We went every year to the San Diego airshow when we lived in the States, and now we go to the Komatsu airshow here in Japan. Cats, cars, coffee, vape, and aeroplanes, that's what it is all about for me. 🤣 😊 I noticed these beans seemed to be able to handle the heat. The new gas stove is a great upgrade. It has a great dial, and the flame is uniform around the burner. I was very tender in my touch, but next time, I will be a bit more aggressive, I guess I can say. It is my pleasure to watch your channel and tell anyone who is into roasting about your channel. Like I said before, you are one of the main channels that I have learned the most about roasting from. Coffee is a great hobby for me. I am lucky to have resources such as your channel. Thank you for your concern and the advice. Seriously, thank you. 🤝 🤝 🤝 🤝

[@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat]

​@VirtualCoffeeLab I am so happy! I tried what you suggested and my most recent roast was noticeably better. It had a depth and complexity to it. I didn't pull it as soon as I would have liked but it was still amazing. Thank you so very much. I am still not 100% but I am taking it easy. I'll roast later today when it cools down. 😎 thank you again. 🤝 Oh quick question... would you suggest removing the "triangle" green beans or they are OK to roast? Also, with this honey processed bean I notice some beans have what I believe to be dried parchment. Remove those as well? I would imagine the parchment would come off and burn but maybe it would stay attached and give a fruity flavour. I can imagine both possibilities. You are the best! Thank you again for everything!!!

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

@@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat the skin you see left on the bean is the sliverskin and that will roast off, becoming chaff. Dry process and honey process coffees usually produce a lot of chaff. If there are silverskin still left on the seed, try putting the coffee into a bucket and rubbing the beans together with your hand. Larger drum roasters usually stirr their beans during cooling which helps do basically the same thing. Us home offee roasters sometimes have to manually do that step. I'm not sure what a "triangle" bean is? Would that be a defective bean that is partially eaten by an insect or something? If you see defective beans you can pick them out before or after the roast.

[@JadeaRS4]

What program do you use for your mill city roaster?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Hi Jade, I use Artisan. My mill city 500 gram is the older version (2017)

[@jerryhubbard4461]

Off topic. I have been considering the Fresh Roast sr800. There is not one to be found. Everywhere is sold out. Even the Hive is sold out. What is going on?

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

It sure. Seems to be a supply chains thing. Have you emailed the manufacturer?

[@jerryhubbard4461]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab I can't find the direct maunfacturer address or even phone number. I did get on a remind you list when they get one.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Home Roasting Supplies - [e-mail]

[@jerryhubbard4461]

@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thank you very much. I will check it out now.

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Jerry, manufacturer says 3-4 weeks and then more will be back in stock at homeroastingsupplies.com

[@martinprick9747]

Very nice video! But.....as I am Dutch, all those fahrenheit-numbers don't tell me anything. As you want to learn our (Celsius) measure system, please don't only talk about Fahrenheit, but also mension the Celsius degrees... Thank you, Martin

[@VirtualCoffeeLab]

Thanks for watching and your suggestion. My more recent videos are referencing Celsius. I’m trying.