VM Vaporizer for Oxalic Acid Vaporization

Our experiences with a VM Vaporizer Turbo for treating varroa mites with oxalic acid vaporization.

[@naturessweetbees3033]

I hope we have a chance to compare notes in the spring Bob. I was mite bombed as well and had ridiculous mite levels. As a result of the infestation, I did 2 rounds of 6 grams followed up by 4 rounds of 3 grams. I use a pro vap. There wasn't any abnormal amounts of dead bees at the entrances with the extra OA. It appears out of 100 colonies, I may have killed 2 queens and 1 colony appears to have absconded. The rest of the colonies still look good and infestation numbers are acceptable now. However, I'm extremely worried that I over dosed them. I'm definitely putting a plan to requeen early if needed. Any chance we can see a video or information on what actions you did with the colonies that you got mite bombed on if possible?

[@bobbinnie9872]

I would be glad to compare notes in the spring. We did something comparable to you and have only lost about 10 so far. I don't think you overdosed them. We also took healthy brood from the better colonies and boosted the poor ones we thought we could pull through which helped a lot. We may have also found our mite bomb source. An older beekeeper, that had colonies about 3/4 mile from us, died recently and was unable to tend to his colonies last winter. Steady robbing of these colonies was observed early in the season and I have to assume that our bees were in on it. Another good reason for checking mite counts several times a year.

[@namentatic4978]

I built something like that last year, and this is hard to control temperature. Wasted a lot of OA too. Clogging up often..... Now I'm using my provap110

[@ОлександрВасильєв-з6р]

Let me express my opinion, in this way it is convenient to work there is no need to bend down in front of each hive. But the main drawback is that there is no way to control the sublimation temperature of the acid.

[@risahalpin8751]

Having dealt with VM last year, was greatly disappointed in their business model due to lack of communication every which way along with order not being filled over the course of at least 2 months. For the time being will continue to stick with pro vaps till a more viable option presents itself.

[@bobbinnie9872]

You are not alone in your experience with them.

[@craigkirich9646]

You'll have a bunch of little snowballs in there :)

[@jeffthomas7549]

Pro Vap is it👍.. to much waste on that machine 👎

[@bobbinnie9872]

I understand.

[@kamonreynolds]

OA is cheap and time is money! Running thru thousands of hives bending down with a provap is killer on the body too.

[@treywhite921]

I agree Kamon.

[@Tinocon1]

We vaporize with one person. I would just carry a pouch for the oxalic acid on my belt.

[@mark-wn5ek]

I enjoy watching the evolution of AO applicators. By and by all these contraptions will wind up hanging on a shed wall and keepers will have some handy lightweight applicator that's reliable and trouble free. In the meantime, the Rube Goldberg inventors continue to offer a new rendition of the wheel, none of which are truly round and roll free! I think what gets me the most is the prices they ask for these gadgets. When they don't pan out....the company quietly disappears. "Buy the new and improved Atomic Mite Blaster by the Shifty Shyster Company...guaranteed to take your money....possibly kill mites too".

[@rodneymiddleton9624]

That's what I'm talking about kicking them in the head!!!!!! WOW!!!! I'm calling you the mite annihilator!!! Thanks Bob!

[@earlybird906]

It is reply on Lukasz M. comment : I wouldn't worry about the decomposing OA to formic acid and carbon dioxide as you won't be able to go beyond the sublime temperature of 315 F in the open (not in a closed/sealed under pressured capacity) as it will vaporize as soon as it reaches 315 F, same as you can't heat up water past 212 F as it will evaporate. I hope that makes sense. Thank you

[@MAQ123]

just seeing it now, makes sense I guess...

[@mosxosntionias4771]

Hello from Greece. I do sublimation at 270 C with excellent results without any damage to the bee. We can do as many times as we want. It is very well tolerated.

[@АбдухоликРаупов]

Здравствуйте сколько стоит это оборудование спасибо

[@bobbinnie9872]

$3200.00 US

[@dougrush2042]

Not precise was my first observation.

[@thehappycamper5575]

Great Video Bob, Thanks for the information. Starting my mite treatments this week with the Johno's Pallet Vap.

[@ricksutton107]

It is fast. It's it not really for the hobbyist

[@andrewk1191]

Yes, especially if your neighbors are in the backyard 😂

[@MAQ123]

thx bob for entering the temp in Celsius for non-US viewers :)

[@dianetaylor6751]

Thx for the video. After watching I gotta say I will stick with my varomorus insect fogger. It does have an adjustable level so after just a few minutes of playing with it I was able to calibrate dose accurately. It will plug up too in cooler weather but after chatting with my local small town auto shop it was confirmed the end piece was brake line. So I cut the original knowing a replacement would be easy to build if I screwed it up. It worked perfectly at the length I cut. I fogged 70 plus hives in about 15 min by myself. I suppose the down side of my way is the additional cost as oxalic acid must be dissolved in alcohol. My hubby did not complain tho when I requested he stop at the liquor store and grab some extra booze.😁

[@tifreire1]

I have one of those but I can't seem to get consistent vapor without clogging. Probably operator error.

[@dianetaylor6751]

@@tifreire1 I admit the 1st time I used it I struggled with it clogging and popping with the back building as it clogged. I also learned to wait 5-10 seconds after dosing for it to fully vap. A bit of mineral oil seemed key to my visual approval that said dose was done. Plus cutting that end right behind where it constantly clogged and my battles were done. I got to say once I got it going correctly my only issue was I was a little sore the next day cuz it was a 15 min work out: bend or kneel, pull lever, count, stand, step....repeat...70 plus times in 15min. My thumb hurt. My thighs hurt. Even my back. A little practice and I was good. I remeasured my remaining solution. Did the math and it was dead on. Practice makes perfect!

[@eranorion]

FINALLY another Keeper using the Varomor. Having only seen other machines in operation, I laugh at the ease of use of my Varomorus. I keep a stiff wire wrapped around my propane tank to ram down the barrel, freeing any incidental obstructions. This tactic HAS eliminated any clogging difficulty's in the field. Dialing it in to the minimum propane setting CAN bee tricky. But once you understand how to read the sounds of the fire and the expelation amounts of vapour this thing IS THE MITE BOMB!!!

[@eranorion]

@@tifreire1 absolute minimum propane setting to where you barely hear the flame, unless you're out on a colder day, then add a bit more to taste.

[@gruntymunky4082]

yeah im not paying 1k for a stupid vaporizer lol

[@Jason-xu6pi]

Wow, just bomb those frickin mites to smithereens! Hahaha that's fantastic.

[@Nik00gfdsa]

We never take it apart. When you put acid- hold a mashine vertically and tap it by wood stiск. After you finish the yard- clean the nasal. I think to press some acid tablets. And build dozer, like on a air gun.

[@scottcarter3747]

i think it is important to note this treatment is labor intense one treatment and your not done we are doing this several times starting in aug when there is brood in the hive treatments are given 5 times in 5 weeks using 3oz per box using a pro vap device running it off the truck with extension cords what a pain and still not getting results that are impressive beekeepers need to know it is very hard to kill a mite on a bee without killing the bee and using a rag is a very important step i wish we as beekeepers had a better way of killing the mites .

[@viklund2725]

LOL It would probably be better if you lifted the lids a bit so the oxalangs flow through the cups better! Now it looks like half blowing outside ???

[@b.p432]

I've been using the Lorobbee InstantVap 18v. Although it took 6 weeks to get it, it was worth the wait. No generator or propane bottles to deal with. You can order it in server different battery option. I got the Milwaukee version.

[@richardgragg5092]

Thanks Mr Binnie. Straight shooter. I wish I still lived in NC I'd be begging you for a job. God bless you from Texas.

[@beavercreekhoney]

We use a modified (home build) version of the VM turbo, modified the burner and the heat shield there is no clogging of the ventury valve, not a lot of clogging of the nozzel we can do about 250+ hives an hour, clean up with water and baking soda. Just stick the nozzle into a pail of water and baking soda.

[@noogie8674]

Gday Bob, mate just throwing out there, would it matter if you treat from your feeding bucket hole in the lids and place a piece of offcut timber at entrance or a timber entrance reducer for treatment purposes whilst doing apiary yard and removing entrance timbers when finished

[@bobbinnie9872]

These are good ideas. When we were using the Pro Vaps we had a dedicated entrance stick we used.

[@honeysuckle2907]

Thanks Bob for the video!! I prefer the ProVap EZ 110 for our operation. I use an inverter for our out yards but only run around 200 hives so I guess with your operation you need something faster. Keep up the good work and Happy Thanksgiving!!

[@williambowers5994]

Thanks Bob for the video, I will will stick with my pro vap.

[@curtissimpson7856]

How does the oa not just come out the nozzle

[@Tripsanszki1]

I used this machine, but unfortunately, it turned out to be quite subpar. It lacks the capability to accurately configure the appropriate temperature and dosage, and it frequently gets obstructed due to the accumulation of oxalic acid deposits. Consequently, at the close of the season when we were harvesting heather honey, we discovered a significant number of colonies had perished due to issues with varroa mites.

[@bobbinnie9872]

We're doing a fairly decent job with it after a lot of practice but it definitely needs to be improved upon. I think there is a great opportunity for someone to build something better.

[@BrooklandsHoneyBees]

What a machine! Thank you for sharing and I hope you are well :D

[@framcesmoore]

Good to see u Bob Enjoyed the video, I like the tool u have I just got a vap from lorbees it works great so I live in Virginia I did 2 treatment this month so far I am not broodless I do not think they ever are how many times are u going to do the vap in december,, Thanks again for the video hope u keep them coming Hope u have a wonderful Thanksgiving with your family

[@bobbinnie9872]

We'll be giving our colonies three doses in winter.

[@graphicdesign7133]

Thank you

[@issentsov]

Thank you Bob for sharing this video, I continue to translate your educational work and I receive many questions about plastic foundation and frames used in the USA. Especially when I made a translation about Jaison Miller's 38 000 plastic frame honey supers, it caused a lot of attention. It is easy to understand why they are used (plastic comb doesn't deteriorate in extractors and ears don't break off) but many of your fans here in Russia and Ukraine wonder what is the price of these frames in the US so that it is profitable to use them instead of natural foundation, and how to clean them or how often to throw away and other question regarding their enviremental impact on honey and nature and so on. If you have time to make such a video about plastic in beekeeping it would be very interesting.

[@bobbinnie9872]

Good suggestion. I will put that on my list of videos to do. Thank you.

[@charlesoneill466]

Looks like cats meow. Has anyone used the "lega" vaporizer. I use it can do about 30 hives with on set up. I never liked oxalic acid. Not sure if it was me and my using it or the lega machine. Does anyone else have experience with it?

[@graphicdesign7133]

Is it possible to explain Acarin’s disease, even if simplified, in the upcoming videos? A dream about bronchiectasis, and thank you

[@johncarson6220]

What is the temperature that this unit operates at?

[@bobbinnie9872]

That is a very good question to which I don't have a precise answer.

[@johncarson6220]

@@bobbinnie9872 hi Bob. From the reading that I have done in some scientific publications, vaporizing OA at temperatures above 190C produces CO2 and steam and or burns the OA off. I have been treating with only vaporized OA for the past three years (with a 95, 100 and 100% overwintering success rate.) I strongly believe that the operating temperature of any vaporizer is critical.

[@mindylabean8363]

Would you recommend using oxalic acid for treatment at this time in the Chattanooga area? Or something else?

[@bobbinnie9872]

Oxalic will work but if using with brood present it needs to be used consecutively at least seven times, no more than four days apart, to be really effective.

[@mindylabean8363]

@@bobbinnie9872 Do you think Apiguard would be effective at this time?

[@bobbinnie9872]

@@mindylabean8363 Yes, that is what we are going to use starting next week. Because of the temperatures we will give colonies 1/2 dose but twice as often. In other words, 25 grams instead of 50, 5 to 7 days apart, 4 times. You need to use a rim on top for this. You might check out our video "Using Apiguard for Varroa Mite Treatment" kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKm9aGmQl9SLfKs

[@NevadaBeeMan-nq3po]

How much is this Dewalt applicator

[@bobbinnie9872]

The entire unit cost me $2600.00. I'm not sure that I would buy it again. I'm sure someone could engineer this better.

[@NevadaBeeMan-nq3po]

@@bobbinnie9872 Bob what unit would you suggest for someone that has say 100 hives ?

[@hhawk6040]

Johnno’s vape, every fourth day for five weeks at night.

[@anadoludakarniyol]

👍👏

[@shevlin2650]

Bob I know that a couple of years ago you raised the quantity of OA for each treatment. But this looks as though you are applying much more product during each application. Is this the case? And if so, does this prove that the bees can adapt to the higher dosage? I guess the proof is in the pudding. You are frequently coming up with much smaller mite numbers on the most part in the last couple of years. Craig Fr. VA SML Bees.

[@bobbinnie9872]

We can only guess at the dose they are actually getting. I don't think it's too much. 32 grams divided by 6 is 5.3 minus waste.

[@CoffeeNo0b0514]

I increased my dose to 2gram per box. Research is showing that the recommended 1 gram is not enough.

[@graphicdesign7133]

Do queens in January stop laying eggs, thank you

[@charlesoneill466]

Hey Bob, if your spring mite check is less than 2% , will you postpone or not do, your spring treatments?

[@bobbinnie9872]

Because 2% in spring would escalate into a much larger number by August, which is when we do our late summer treatments, I would do something to bring it down or at least keep it from growing..

[@benjaminmeszaros]

Would you make a video about comparing Dadant Blatt hive to Langstroth? In Europe we use the Dadant hive the most. I am really excited about your opinion!

[@bobbinnie9872]

Hello Benjámin. I don't know anyone that owns one of these hives and do not have convenient access to one so I can't speak from personal experience. However, I have read about them a lot and it seems to me they would be superior when colonies are kept in a single box brood chamber. Brother Adam speaks highly of these in his book "Beekeeping At Buckfast Abbey which is a book worth reading.

[@MinnesotaBeekeeper]

Wondering about getting/using a pill press, making 2-3 gram tablets to better control dosage. I see that darn Canadian was trying some premade tablets but I'd hate to eat that price make up.

[@bobbinnie9872]

Could work. Let me know how it goes.

[@tonyfox5422]

Was the oxalic crystals mixed with anything. Some use ethanol or mineral oil. I have no experience so following you on this.

[@bobbinnie9872]

Nothing mixed in. Just crystals.

[@sergepetrovskiy643]

Hello Bob, I live in Washington state. I was treatmy bees with axalic acid last week and noticed that one of my hives has a lot of drones unlike other hives non . I inspected it today and didn't find a queen neither ne brood .I understand it's end of November but does it mean my queen died? Also I counted about 40 mites on the bottom board. What number is ok to expect after the treatment in fall. Thanks

[@bobbinnie9872]

Hi Serge. It is a fact that queen-less colonies are more inclined to allow drones to overwinter and will also allow drones from other colonies to drift in easier. It's also possible to have a colony that simply allows drones to stay unlike the others. If you are absolutely positive it is queenless, I would recommend combining it with another. You might want to check it again to be sure. A 40 mite drop with oxalic vaporization done properly on a broodless colony isn't extreme.

[@paulrkrueger]

Rather than use a rag, I wonder if it would be quicker if you took the lid out of the hole in the top cover. Pop the lid out, push the oxalic in until it comes out the top, pop the lid back in.

[@bobbinnie9872]

Possibly, might try it.

[@anibis485]

Hi Bob, thanks for your videos! I keep learning... Concerning the OA i m concern by the white smoke from the vapo. I think when the OA vaporizes it has too be almost transparent otherwise it means the heating of the OA is too high and products toxic byproducts ? What s your thought about the OA temp.?

[@bobbinnie9872]

I'm honestly not an expert at this so I don't know. It sounds like you may know more than I do. The smoke does seem to be the same color as the Pro Vap smoke which has been working well for us.

[@framcesmoore]

Bob I forgot to ask what was the out come of the mite treatment with the experiment with the new strips extended release that u did in your video. Thanks have a Blessed day

[@bobbinnie9872]

Hi Frances. We'll be posting those results in late December.

[@graphicdesign7133]

Which of them is better, queens that lay eggs or queens that do not lay eggs?

[@bobbinnie9872]

If you are referring to queens that lay in January, or not, both have their advantages and disadvantages. Early buildup is good for beekeepers that pollinate early crops and want to make early splits and packages. Some, like me, don't want their bees to peak too early or use up too much food in winter.

[@jeffsea6490]

Thanks for sharing valuable content Bob 👍🇺🇲

[@bobbinnie9872]

Hi Jeff, Thanks.

[@beebum1909]

Interesting, I'm wondering how to tell what dosing each colony is getting.

[@bobbinnie9872]

All we can do is give them plenty and guess.

[@graphicdesign7133]

Do queens in January never stop laying eggs, thank you

[@bobbinnie9872]

It depends on the age of the queen, the region and the race of bees. Italians tend to start laying again in January in many regions whereas Carniolan and Caucasian queens may wait a little longer until pollen begins coming in.

[@mosxosntionias4771]

At 230 ° C the first varroa begin to shed after 24 hours. With 270 after 10 minutes. This is important for the result.

[@graphicdesign7133]

Thank you

[@natserog]

Hey Bob!!! thanks so much! regarding feeding pollen sub in fall and winter. Do you see it bad for them in any way? Some one said Randy Oliver discourage pollen sub powder feeding the fall - He encourages patties, because they're consumed, not stored. Said that pollen sub powder comprises too much of the overall protein stores, gut problems are common. Not sure that is true?? thanks!!

[@bobbinnie9872]

First let me say that Randy knows a lot more about pollen supplement than I do. There may be a lot of merit to what he's saying, I don't know for sure. I do know that I've always suspected that the bees did better with patties. That having been said I've always been of the opinion that if there isn't an obvious need to feed supplement why do it at all. I don't believe there is a supplement on the planet that is as good as a good variety of the real thing when it comes to your colonies health. Depending on where you live, the condition of your colonies and and whether you try to treat for mites when the colonies are broodless in winter or not, stimulating your colonies in any way in late fall or early winter may be the wrong thing to do. Even when we have small or compromised colonies, that we feel will need supplement, we try to get the bees broodless for an oxalic treatment before giving them patties. Of course that's what we feel is best for us in the southern Appalachians and I don't need early bees like almond pollinators.

[@natserog]

@@bobbinnie9872 thanks Bob

[@Peter_Gunn]

Second

[@andrewolgado6018]

Would this damage poly hives?

[@bobbinnie9872]

I've never used them so I honestly couldn't say for sure.

[@davidpook5778]

2nd

[@tonyfox5422]

Could we have the mixture measurements please.

[@bobbinnie9872]

It's not a mixture. Just oxalic acid crystals.

[@davidpook5778]

What is he temperature of the vapor going into the hive?

[@bobbinnie9872]

Not sure.

[@cindydotson5686]

I am going to use your queen rearing method of using a double screened bottom board and shaking 10-12 frames of nurse bees. My question is when I harvest the grafted cells after capping and want to start a new round. I know to reverse boxes again, but do I shake 10 more frames of nurse bees on the queenless box? Thank you very much for all your videos. I have learned so much. I have 2 yards with 8 hives each here in Deep East Texas.

[@bobbinnie9872]

Shaking in a few extra frames should do.

[@cindydotson5686]

@@bobbinnie9872 Thank you very much. Can't wait to try it. Been using Richard Noel's method with good success. Like trying different methods.

[@burleybeeyard]

Third

[@kelitagedifarm4893]

Gee whiz Bob... Just don't know what to think about all these uncontrolled temps and dosages. But when they used the comparison to bazooka, it sorta reminded me of the guy who went out and bought a 12 ga Browning and a case of double 00 buck to shoot a few mice in his barn. Hard to really tell much about how much extremely hot air is coming out of this thing and into the hives, but if it's much at all, I would think twice about using this tool at anytime except in cold / cool weather.

[@bobbinnie9872]

I know it looks like a bit much. The flame you see isn't going into the hive. It just heats the bowl surface. I have a few friends that use these in the summer and don't report issues. By the way, there are times I feel like I would like to shoot mice with a 12 gauge.

[@kelitagedifarm4893]

😂 yeah, I suspect that you was one of the lucky kids that didn't have to explain to daddy why there's 3 big gapping holes in the wall of his corn crib now.

[@markbooth8458]

Hello Bob. I'm doing my treatments thanksgiving weekend. I sticking with the pro vap 110. I can't justify purchasing a vm vaporizer. I only have 38 colonies. I was thinking about waiting a couple of weeks. After the first treatment and hit them again.

[@bobbinnie9872]

That's what we do. Nothing wrong with two treatments, two weeks apart.

[@eranorion]

@@bobbinnie9872 OR 5, three days apart to make REAL sure.

[@graphicdesign7133]

Causes of Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD)

[@bobbinnie9872]

I think CCD was possibly a combination of a number of things. Some or all of which could be a unique virus combined with other things like pesticides, mites, fungi, beekeeping practices (such as the use of antibiotics or long-distance transportation of beehives), malnutrition, poor quality queens, starvation, other pathogens, and immunodeficiencies.

[@KenMcCown]

I like the cable idea. What is the cables original purpose? I use a weedeater strap to hold the bucket to make it a one man operation. Does clog quite a bit is my only issue. I also keep an inverter and charger with spare batteries in the truck.

[@bobbinnie9872]

We bought some cable from Home Depot. I think it is 1/4 inch. The clogging is the biggest problem and the cable routine sped things up a lot.

[@KenMcCown]

Thanks. Bought a 1:4 inch 10 ft. Drain snake and cut it to length. A little electrical tape and we’re off to the races

[@stevecron6723]

Question for Jesse, have you had any issues using a respirator with a full beard? Thanks.

[@bobbinnie9872]

Hi Steve. Jessee said the answer is yes. This year John and Seth are doing almost all of the oxalic work and Jessee reminded me that last year, when he was doing much of it, he trimmed his beard down to a goatee style beard that fit inside the rubber seal on the respirator.

[@stevecron6723]

@@bobbinnie9872 Thanks for the quick reply. Guess I'll need to dig out the clippers!

[@tzkelley]

Hi Bob-thank you for these videos; they are very informative. I was wondering if you had opinions on whether we should leave propolis in the hive or remove it for easier manipulations. I’ve heard arguments on both sides, of course, but would be interested in your thoughts.

[@bobbinnie9872]

For decades we have been breeding for bees that have minimal propolis production for ease of manipulation but recent research, especially by Marla Spivak at The University of Minnesota, as shown that the presence of propolis is healthy for bees in all ways.

[@tzkelley]

@@bobbinnie9872 thanks Bob-seems like one of the few easy answers in beekeeping!

[@graphicdesign7133]

Can you explain the symptoms of acarin disease (bronchial dream) and thank you

[@bobbinnie9872]

The most obvious symptom is quantities of bees crawling around on the ground aimlessly in front of the colony. We saw a lot of this in the 80s.

[@graphicdesign7133]

@@bobbinnie9872 Is there a cure or prevention?

[@bobbinnie9872]

@@graphicdesign7133 Most bees in the US are now resistant. Menthol in vegetable grease treatments were once commonly used.

[@graphicdesign7133]

Thanks

[@wadebarnes6720]

He can refill those canisters yourself it's cheaper

[@bobbinnie9872]

Thanks, probably will.

[@wadebarnes6720]

@@bobbinnie9872 it's like maybe eight bucks for the fitting to refill them I have one bottle that I have used for a while now I filled up a bunch of little green ones for a camp place down the road. 1 lb cylinders you can get 25 to 26 out of the small grill tanks the ones is about knee-high last time I bought one field the little green one 6 to 8 bucks and you can get the tank filled for 16 to 12

[@sporkintheeye]

@@bobbinnie9872 Just don't talk about doing it. LOL, it's like some silly $10k DOT fine if you do it and transport it.

[@MAQ123]

so the crucial thing for OA vaporisation is the right temperaure, if you go beyond the sweet spot you are actually vaporising formic acid. It does not look like this propane thingy is precise at all IMO...

[@honeydropfarm1605]

Wait--oxalic turns to formic if you heat it up too much? What temp? Where can I find out more?

[@MAQ123]

@@honeydropfarm1605 yep, just check wikipedia for OA reactions. here's the key sentence: "Oxalic acid vapor decomposes at 125-175 °C into carbon dioxide CO 2 and formic acid HCOOH."

[@honeydropfarm1605]

@@MAQ123 yikes. Well I guess I don't have to worry about that with my provap then.

[@DickeDrohne63]

The Big Vaporizer 👍

[@scrotiemcboogerballs1981]

Thanks for sharing

[@wetwilly66]

Hello Bob Joe from Connecticut again I am also in the middle of doing my oxalic treatments and using your double screen board method for small or underweight colonies at the same time. my question is, is it possible to overwork the parent colony by placing a colony if it’s too weak over the top of it and stressing it out, or taxing it thermally too much over the course of the winter? and do you have rough guidelines that you follow to avoid doing this?

[@bobbinnie9872]

We use singles with 5 or 6 frames or more and doubles with 6 or 7 frames or more for mother colonies. Of course we're warmer than you. So yes, think using a mother colony that is too small may not be good for either colony.