Volatility in Warhammer, Age of Sigmar

[@VinceVenturella]

Well said, it's strange we are in this place after all this time.

[@CitadelArchive]

It's been a wild ride. Thank you for your support Vince!!

[@GandalfTheBattleWiza]

AoS 4th Gameplay: 😃 AoS 4th product releases and balance: 😱

[@CitadelArchive]

Indeed :)

[@JoeDaly983]

Very well said mate

[@CitadelArchive]

Thank you!

[@AureliaMumby]

This is an interesting assessment! I think describing the eay years of aos as volatile is 100 percent spot on. But personally I don't agree that this has carried over to the modern day; there have definitely been changes and reversals in GW'S strategy in regards to the game but generally those haven't seemed chaotic or poorly communicated to me. I am a stormcast and BoC player and I was not surprised they retired all those models, it felt rather inevitable as they had become odd hangers on and would need vast amount of support to stay in. Nonetheless a good video and I found your perspective interesting!

[@CitadelArchive]

Thank you for your feedback and input.

[@Qshafe]

I think if the Old World never came out, BoC would have received some updates in the same vein as Seraphon and FeC.

[@brian3610]

Um, actually, at AoS launch Greenskins was legacy Orcs only. Gitmob was not lumped in but was its own faction, as full-featured as Moonclan. It had the artillery, it had the cheapest bodies, it was great! This is to say, I don't agree that the addition of Gitmob to Gloomspite Gitz is an indication of problems with the AoS vision. It's a return of my favorite flavor of goblins. Why don't they fit, because of the word "Gloom?" The allegiance also has the word "Git!"

[@brian3610]

Spiders are probably being retired; never releasing a single Spiderfang sculpt in the AoS years is clear communication of this. But if Spiderfang is replaced by Gitmob, well, they got the past 8 years of AoS after Gitmob went Legends. That's life as a corporate product!

[@CitadelArchive]

So much has changed I apologize if my memory was fuzzy regarding Greenskinz. Thank you for the correction. My general point was simply that Gitmob was once a thing before being cut and then reintroduced. I think the models as cool and upon being revealed I immediately told my distributor to put me down for one of the launch boxes. But the reveal caught many by surprise. There are simply other armies that deserved greater attention than a second Gloomspite army. If they had instead been a second wave of Orc and Goblin Tribes in 2026 that would have perhaps felt a little more right. Above all, I appreciate your comments and I'm happy to hear your opinion regardless of whether we align.

[@brian3610]

@@CitadelArchive thanks for emphasizing these points. I'd also push back on the conversation that this Gitmob release belongs in Old World, or is attempting to define the space between Old World and AoS, or anything that places Old World prominently in the thought process for this range's development. I see here a classic AoS release, in which the themes of Warhammer Fantasy are updated and made more fantastical for the new setting. Warhammer traditionally excluded the warg or dire wolf... by putting orcs on boars, and using the smallest humanoids in the range as the riders of normal wolves, the giant, semi-intelligent wolf of Tolkien was something they designed away from. Now we've got them, wolves so big they need multiple riders, along with chariots that include redesigned versions of the classic artillery but look more mobile. Ideas like Grom the Paunch are brought forward but substantially changed. In my opinion, this release feels like an evolution of old Gitmob in the same way the 1st ed DoK release built on Witch Elves.

[@CitadelArchive]

@@brian3610 That's perfectly fair. I'm glad that you really like them! Thank you for sharing your opinion :)

[@ce4879]

Well said on all 3 counts. 👏 🐺 Glareface Frazzlegits is clearly what AoS does best and that is take a classic fantasy trope and crank it up to 12 to fit an epic/mythic setting until the notch nearly breaks. And that’s what we got with a Mad Max army using moondust Mariokart boosts to show off another Realm of Light culture. ☀️ They’re basically to Moonclans what Ironjawz are to Kruleboyz. Spider-clans fate I think will be finalized in 5th edition when it’s Order vs Death again. Best time to see if their underworld spider god & the Evercrawl will get a refresh or destroyed by ascendency Nagash. 💀

[@nolanlarocque2967]

The fact that one of the LVO teaser shadows looks like a bray-shaman means thay gw coild have updated ot hoven BoC new stugf at any time but chose not too

[@CitadelArchive]

Yes, its very unfortunate! It's very clear that they wanted OW/AoS to be clearly demarcated lines that do not overlap. So OWs gain was a loss for AoS. It's a very odd decision. Thinking of the products the most recent Beastlord from 2023 will likely be repackaged, but not the endless spells and Underworlds warband. The Herdstone should be in OW, but it actually has AoS parts (i.e Stormcast helmets) so they would need to adjust the kit. Up till now they've adjusted resin models and some minor plastic adjustments to the Hurricanum, Luminark, and War Shrine for OW. This would be a larger change so we'll see.

[@lestrike2707]

it'll be resin though so it wasn't planned for AoS (different kinds of moulds)

[@CitadelArchive]

@@lestrike2707 You're absolutely right that it will be resin. I think its more about the potential for Brayherds to receive more support than Beasts of Chaos did over many years.

[@Kinhussar]

The weirdest thing is that the 'old' Bray shaman looks really good and not out of date at all 🤷‍♂️

[@Dre0oq]

I appreciate the breakdown of aoS's growth. I played Tabletop Simulator around 3rd edition and had a blast. But being a beasts of Chaos enjoyer, now that I'm actually collecting models, I'm playing Old World.

[@CitadelArchive]

Yeah, I understand that for sure.

[@nershcast]

Agreed, this is my top frustration with the setting

[@CitadelArchive]

It's certainly frustrating. I hope things settle down a bit in the coming years.

[@someirishguy1662]

They should make the systems cross compatible honestly, with the exception of AOS > Old World, it would ease immense strains

[@Cael551]

Ahhhh the irony of AoS living with the fear of ranges being End Times'd without warning or reasoning. GW .... you've done it agian!

[@DerOrk]

We're gonna get Kiknik Toofsnatcha and Droggoz da Sunchompa basically back-to-back. Its gonna be interessting to see how they measure up against, considering how similiar they appear on first glance - warpick and all.

[@CitadelArchive]

Yes, that will be interesting.

[@gameslord3706]

As an AoS player for 4 years now, I jumped to TOW this Christmas. Ive been using my Ironjawz and Kruleboyz models as orks and goblins, simply 3D printing base adaptors and having a blast with the game so far. Nobody complained that I use those models either

[@CitadelArchive]

If it works in your gaming group and local community then you're good :)

[@RedGeist]

The comments about Sylvaneth were as necessary as they were chilling. If the games are not allowed (if allowed is even an accurate word) to be cross compatible, what will happen to them? A superb essay. I'm sharing it around as best I can

[@CitadelArchive]

I'm been thinking about the Treelord for some time. It's possible a new AoS version will be forthcoming, but I find the uncertainly unsettling. Thank you for your support!

[@RealmDesigner]

As GamesWorksho said themselves. (and have done to multiple social media posts) what you do with your models is up to you. Models are cross compatible as soon as you buy one and use it in a system you want. That's it, why do people literally need GW to come out and hand-hold them and pat them on the head and tell them what they can and can't do with the models they buy? It's so strange to me.

[@CitadelArchive]

@@RealmDesigner You're absolutely right of course. GW honestly doesn't care so long as you're buying their product. However, it does cause a minor inconvenience as the products are packaged with different bases. I think it is more about the general sense of uncertainty. If Sylvaneth receive a new AoS Treelord over the next year then it's not really an issue. If they don't then you're left wondering. For instance, some caution might be warranted if I knew someone wanted to buy a lot of Ironbreakers for their Cities of Sigmar. They might be fine and be supported for quite sometime or they could be pulled from the range in their next book. No one knows and that's the problem.

[@TheSupporter76]

Im still curious whats about to come of my ogors, i feel like is the worst treated faction in aos model update wise, ngl i wouldnt have minded if they were the faction that got squatted and returned to the old world, at leasts beasts over time got more new minis, new god specific gors, endless spells.

[@CitadelArchive]

Yeah. You've gotten a few new minis. More if you include Underworlds. But, not enough to provide ample confidence.

[@dothatshi]

It's very easy to understand reasoning: purchasing bundles and then kitbashing models from different product lines has been an issue for them. once a player gets to their 2/3rd army, most just stop buying things unless it's a book or some paints, although there are better alternatives out there. And so it seems to me that they haven't been able to outwit players creativity in building their armies and so they're outpacing players financially by making us purchase for as much as we possibly can. then they squat the stuff, repackage it for the other system, repeat. we can't really do anything about it other than not buying and even that may cause even more of a AoS 1.0 catastrophe. But to be honest, I never understood what's stopping actual GW customers from using old game systems (they are still available) or even older models to play with. It seems like us GW customers are trapped forever in this cycle of wanting to get the new stuff, even though we all know this will be discontinued or souped into one other system at some point.

[@KingAtlon]

I think there are various elements at play within GW's product line management that end up creating this confusion, although I don't think it is as chaotic as you are painting it up to be. 40K has decades and decades of well-established factions and lore that AoS simply does not. Dark Eldar might not be the most succesful range in 40K, but there is no question that they will remain in the setting and that they will eventually get a refresh, simply because they have been there for like 30 years. Cuts in 40K are only ever made to update and/or rationalize a range, not to eliminate it. And with a very solid and succesful core you can invest resources into creating new ranges, which are not entirely new as you are still drawing upon that rich history. AoS on the other hand has no such long and solid background. The old WHFB ranges were a necessary crutch initially, but they clearly are trying to untie themselves from them. What makes and doesn't make the cut is probably determined only by what the miniature designer think is gonna be cool, as there is not 40+ year long lore to go from. If you then add their internal policy of keeping core games and specialist ranges entirely separated from a cost, revenue and management perspectives, you get the situation where an army like Beasts is just gonna get shifted to Old World, if the designers were not able to come up with a novel spin to AoSify it. This of course creates an higher degree of uncertainty than in 40K, but ultimately I see it more as the setting shedding the last remains of its WHFB roots than anything else. And it also speaks somewhat to the stagnation of 40K design, which has great execution of its existing aesthetic but very few things that feel actually new (though stagnation is a big theme in 40K lore I guess!).

[@CitadelArchive]

Well said. I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points. Lots to consider.

[@thatoneguynobodylikes8553]

It breaks my heart, as someone with one of the largest FEC armies in the world, knowing that 99% of my army will eventually be squatted back to the old world despite being one of the oldest factions in setting. 7000 points eventually going to square bases or counts as. I am the squatted king. I've owned nearly a dozen armies that have been squatted or souped, and I'm turn many have been unsquatted and more are getting squatted in the future. Models are not forever. Once I embraced that fact I found some real freedom. Nothing will last, and the game pieces I've spent hours building will just be hunks of plastic on a shelf.

[@CitadelArchive]

You're a 100% right. As an obsessive collector myself I've also seen many of my armies discontinued over the years. I've likewise accepted that as completely inevitable.

[@oliverp3545]

It's another setting where because GW doesn't know how to 'balance' it they've butchered summoning as a mechanic yet again.

[@EinheriV]

Or manifestations.... ugh

[@oliverp3545]

@EinheriV yeah must admit I don't like how they've become mandatory now.

[@CitadelArchive]

I'm not a fan of those myself. It doesn't help that they like so many other products are routinely sold out.

[@wrongix6544]

I agree but i also feel that beastmen doesnt really fit into AOS. They dont really have the power of the other factions. This is only a lore problem but i like them more in fantasy where they atleast could feel like a threat.

[@CitadelArchive]

I don't think I necessarily disagree with that position within the right timeframe. If that had been their decision from the start of AoS or in 2020 it wouldn't have bothered me as much. Instead we have this sense that they had plans for them and then changed their mind. Cutting them from AoS in 2024 and rereleasing them for OW in 2025 is simply jarring.

[@Mangus89]

Very good video. I have the same feeling about how GW is handling product realises in AoS it's chaotic and breaks trust between company and consumers. Now they are doing this with Indexes and new Battletoms that are copy pasts of indexes. I've started my jurny with AoS at the end of second edition with Sacrosant Stormcasts, painted them and started playing the game at the start of third edition. At the start of fourth I decided to sell all my remaining Stormcast because of Sacrosant cuts but mainly because it's madness how many same looking models there are and how much models they are releasing for this army. Now i'm planing to buy FEC army but GW learned me to buy only new models because who nows how many years models will last in the game, buying new once i have more chance to paint them and use in games.

[@CitadelArchive]

I'm sorry that you've had such a poor experience with Stormcast. In my opinion they have simply not adopted a sustainable approach with that faction. You should be good for the foreseeable future with the new FEC models. Cheers!

[@Gynnemo]

Great video, thank you

[@CitadelArchive]

Thank you for watching!

[@lukevassh7740]

Excellent points. One small thing that bugs me about the gitmob release is the head designs. They previewed the range with snarlfang and these had some of the best goblin designs imo of warhammer history. Then they switch it up when the rest of the range is shown only to have some very goofy, Mr Burns from the Simpsons looking, horrible faces. This put a halt onto what was one of my most anticipated releases. A lot of folks think these were meant for TOW initially. Who knows. Good video. 👊

[@Willie5000]

Warhammer goblins are supposed to be goofy though.

[@CitadelArchive]

Thank you. Different aesthetics will always appeal to different people. I like the models, but I completely understand your point. The earlier Snarlfang models are quite nice.

[@bigfluff73]

They'll probably release new steam tank and luminarch type units for cities and move the existing ones to TOW eventually. I like the scale of the aos setting compared to whfb. So I think it's a shame and a loss when factions or units get removed, as there's ample space for them to exist in the setting. Like when the old dwarf and dark elf models get removed from cities, it's effectively reducing cities to a human-only faction. Are we going to see those dwarf and dark elf units move to other aos factions? Unlikely. So those units and their lore will no longer be heard of again in aos. I think they should shove every whfb unit into aos somehow and make aos the crazy catchall fantasy setting. Otherwise what is it good for, just another flavour of tow with different factions and rules? I don't know.

[@CitadelArchive]

Yeah, I think that is definitely part of the issue and one of my contentions with Gitmob. They haven't done a good job at differentiating the lines. As for the Steam tank it is already under the TOW banner. Thank you for the comment!

[@samswinson8786]

Fyreslayers' new models when😢

[@CitadelArchive]

It's really unfortunate. I own a Fyreslayers army myself, but they're in a difficult position. I like their Warcry kit a lot. I think that's a good direction.

[@aguilarraliuga1777]

I dunno how the hell I got here, but hey it seems interesting.

[@CitadelArchive]

Welcome

[@BronnBlackwater]

We need malekith

[@CitadelArchive]

We really do!

[@kurukblackflame]

The lack of crossover is stupid. It's stupid in 40k too. So many amazing models for Heresy, many of which still exists in the setting of 40k and yet you can't use them in 40k. But yea-I don't really understand why armies cannot exist in both games. Or can they? Some do(Like Chaos Warriors). It's all very confusing XD

[@CitadelArchive]

It really is silly. I shed a tear knowing that they would eventually rerelease the old metal Chaos Chosen when a new plastic kit had been released just the year before. Some AoS kits are equivalent models but have distinct AoS parts (trophies, iconography, etc.). These don't and there is absolutely not reason why they cannot be used in OW.

[@joshseltenright]

Amen brother

[@fernandogomezvillanueva7979]

It was much more consistent in a smaller, more constricted world like Fantasy than one with several worlds with different characteristics. And it was very logical to see ninja rats with mad scientists with flamethrowers. Please.

[@SingerinEX]

will never forgive what they did to my goats... BAAAH and then i get stuff for my gitmob army? making me and the other like 5 gitmob fans on the planet rejoice being a customer of GW is like being in a toxic relationship

[@skreechverminking2227]

Truth be told about tow, I have seen a ton of tow models being used in aos as they are currently often cheaper for more models for the same price as the new ones in aos. I have also seen a lot of aos kits being used in tow as the tow players enjoy having an army they can paint and have a project with. Tow models seem to be well received on both ends especially at aos tournaments where an army can ne considered trash in a month and people are mitvated to sell their army every month or so

[@CitadelArchive]

You're absolutely right that nothing stops you from using your models in either game. I've been impressed with the TOW prices in general with a couple exceptions. It was weird to see Ironbreakers go from 10 for $60 to 20 for $80 and there are just so many other examples. Good points!

[@n3r0n3]

since they took over the Lord of the rings franchise they wanted to progressively distance their other games from Tolkien. Plus naturally they are now a multinational corporation and they need to keep investors happy. AoS had to be a fresh start but it wasn't: the game is in the end still complex and it still screams Tolkien. I have the impression they are reconsolidating armies a little (orks will be united again, goblins too.. we'll see). Old World is also competing with AoS and yes as things are the overlap is obvious... I would not be surprised if they kill AoS or both and recreate fantasy again.

[@CitadelArchive]

Interesting perspective.

[@brandonl7759]

Beasts getting squated was the last straw for me. Also, not vibing with 4e

[@CitadelArchive]

Yeah. That decision was definitely rough. I haven't played too many games of 4th, but I can appreciate the concern.

[@Aki777craft]

Cull all old models