Volute Methanol Injection Dyno Data - Deep Dive!

[@scottc78]

This was like a college lecture, but for a class I actually would want to show up for for. Can't wait for the track footage.

[@KarzKreated]

It's pretty cool how you plumbed the nozzles. Can't say I've seen it done like that before! Cool stuff! 😎🤙

[@robbiyoung85]

Always Love the data breakdown, it helps me understand so much more.

[@AlexLTDLX]

Thanks Robbi!

[@wtfdadduorp4619]

Yup, yup, yup, keep it going

[@jpabon18]

Outstanding data. Can't wait for the track video. 👍🏼👍🏼

[@Fk8td]

The jitter in the boost curve is the actual pumping of the methanol as it’s coming in. What you’re seeing is the pressure pulse of the actual methanol pump. You really should try straight methanol you will make even more power.

[@AlexLTDLX]

That seems like a possible cause. BTW - I am running straight methanol. I believe that was mentioned in the dyno video.

[@Fk8td]

@@AlexLTDLX I see it all the time with tuning cars on methanol injection.

[@lcq4blackstar]

​@@AlexLTDLXwas going to ask what percentage methanol you were spraying, agree with the comment it got to be the pump pulse causing the boost pressure osolation. 👍

[@learysinsight5796]

put a snubber on it.

[@ScottCouch83]

Amazing work Bro!🎉 Love watching! Good research!!!

[@Justa4banger79]

I totally feel the difference when I spray in my car. 💯love the AEM nozzle 💪😎🤘

[@donperryautomotive]

Aem nozzle is now average. The Tuner nerd and prometh are now the bosses

[@doublewidemotorsports7217]

Good video as usual and good commentary. This is AL P from the Corral, I hope you are doing well.

[@AlexLTDLX]

Hi Al! Good to hear from you! Thanks - hope things are good with you as well.

[@Bayerische.Motoren.Werke.]

Just subscribed! You are single handedly proving the concept of worthwhile electric boost. Torqueamp was close but didn't have the hardware or design to support 600rwhp in a v8. I would look at partnering with a turbo or tuning company. I think you're on to something. cheers bud!

[@AlexLTDLX]

Thanks. I'm exploring various options at the moment.

[@lcq4blackstar]

​@@AlexLTDLXhave you considered converting a Rotrex??

[@AlexLTDLX]

@@lcq4blackstar Rotrex blowers aren't well suited to electric conversion because of their high impeller speed. The speedmaster P2 is the best unit for the majority of vehicles because of it's price, compressor map and compatibility with available bldc motors and ESCs.

[@davidresar8256]

I actually have my nozzle in the supercharger pipe about half way between the supercharger and the throttle body. Closer to the manifold so it does more cooling. As discussed before my combo made 100hp more to the wheels.

[@evandrogoltz2166]

You can compare methanol vs pure water vs a 50% by mass blend. Initially, I supose that you must run in constant AFR (or lambda) and adjust only the ignition timing to BMEP... this is parcularlly dificult to do without a engine dyno... Great KZbin channel man! Viva a Ucrânia!!! Um grande abraço do Rio Grande do Sul/Brasil.

[@AlexLTDLX]

Thank you. I've moved over 1,600 miles away since that video was shot. Part of the game plan here is to get my own dyno and test whatever we want to. Maybe within six months to a year until that's all setup. And hopefully, Ukraine is free of invaders by then too! Thanks again.

[@72chevelle156]

D.V.'s video is called "Worlds cheapest and MOST EFFECTIVE octane booster"

[@alltheboost5363]

Very interesting video. I've been running water meth for 15yrs or so. 71 240z 2.8L l28et ms v2.2 hx35 billet compressor 1.5ish bar of boost Npr intercooler cooling mist pump 400cc injector. And we've tried a bunch of different locations. At the throttle body.... in the intercooler, after the intercooler, after the turbo , and the best spot was coming out of the intercooler. I think the biggest contributing factor of why that location is best is because of the intake temps (besides the obvious fact of the intercooler). On the street or doing pulls 1/4 mile or less. Temps never went above 30 degrees above ambient. I do a lot of open track days but unfortunately I've never tried different locations with the watermeth on the road course. Also are you injected 50/50 or 100% methanol. there's a lot of videos on that one. I'm running 50/50.

[@Justa4banger79]

IMAGINE IF YOU HAD A CONVENTIONAL TURBO. Meth make my turbo happy as well. Cools it threw the exhaust flow. Real awesome stuff. 💪😎🤘

[@AlexLTDLX]

Yeah, if I put a conventional turbo on the car it'd run 8's. And get kicked out of tracks all the time, and I wouldn't have this data to share with you all. Honestly, I prefer being the fastest electric forced induction car in the world. Plus I love the research part!

[@Skiridr22]

Smart move on the placement of the jets 😎

[@Rahhh29420]

Maybe the jitter is from the menthol solenoid pulsing

[@AlexLTDLX]

Alas, there is no meth solenoid. I'm intentionally using the simplest variant of the system - tank, filter, pump, nozzles. I'll add other stuff later as needed (the solenoid is needed, I can tell you...)

[@Fk8td]

I have used the aem version three nozzles and I’m not a fan they tend to leak. They also swell up and don’t like to come apart for changing nozzle size. Prometh has a much better solution and using snow performance quick connect along with a prometh check valve insures, no leakage, and a great spray pattern

[@AlexLTDLX]

I did notice they leak without running the solenoid. I'll likely install the solenoid. Have you found the check valve to affect the flow?

[@goldcountryruss7035]

Maybe the temperature of the injected methanol is cycling above and below its vapor point as the air is cooled. Try injecting warm methanol, it may stabilize the pressure. An alternative would be slightly less methanol flow or maybe try moving the pressure sensing port further downstream. This brings up a different thought, If I added an electric blower with similar methanol volute injection to a 100% stock engine running a stock ECU and used a dedicated wideband to control a proportional methanol valve and resulting final fuel mixture. If it would work the result would be a simple cheap system for stock vehicles that left a virgin emission system but safely added fuel with the extra air and still protected against detonation. It might not always cool the charge perfectly but that would not be catastrophic. When the Wife wasn't looking, I could turn her V6 6-speed Accord into ......

[@lcq4blackstar]

👏 awesome video and data! Been searching for this information with actual data for quite some time. Just found your channel love what you are doing! Some of the questions i had were already in the comments like 100% methanol is being sprayed. But i have a few more, what type of fuel is the vehicle running that you can run that much timing?? IAT even with methanol was low 120's? I wouldn't be able to run any timing that hot on 91 octane... Maybe i am just to conservative. I specifically like this video because there is claims but no data that centrifugal supercharger boost pressure would go up, which appears not to be the case. Regardless you got solid gains! Why 3 nozzles in such a compact space? Better atomization? I had a ton more questions while watching but forgot so will have to watch again and make notes. I hope you will go over every detail and thought process of your setup or maybe you already have and i will just have to watch all your videos.👍

[@AlexLTDLX]

Thanks. It's 93 octane pump gas. As for the seemingly high IATs, I run the sensor in the stock location - which on a fox body Ford is the lower intake manifold - since those days, OEMs tend to put the sensor in the intake tube or some other place (air box, etc) that doesn't get nearly as hot. I pull timing over 140 degrees. I put 3 nozzles in because I wanted to spread the meth out throughout the volute and to give me more flexibility in nozzle sizing.

[@lcq4blackstar]

@@AlexLTDLX Thank you for replying Alex. I have been going back and forth on where to spray logically the valute is safer (no impeller damage) but right into the compressor wheel would/could be the most beneficial was my thought process conclusion, I just wonder if a boost pressure gain can actually be achieved? I totally understand your reasoning with the electric motor not wanting to go that route or test if it in fact could create more boost pressure but man I wish I could find data to prove it, especially for the fact it needs to be tested on a supercharger with a fixed speed ratio to be conclusive unlike if done on a turbo IMO. I did learn in your video about what to expect to calculate to spray vs fuel and that was great info that I didn't even think of! I was thinking it would be a LOT less... like 1 of the smallest nozzles would do the job. Problem now is that I have Rotrex and FMIC so I think I will end up pooling the methanol in the intercooler? My AIT's are only 7-12 degrees over ambient and I spin just over max RPM on the blower at redline. I wanted to run the methanol to possibly gain boost pressure but now I'm not sure I will see much if any gain.🤔

[@AlexLTDLX]

@@lcq4blackstar It's not so much a boost pressure gain, but a mass airflow gain. Since the air charge is now cooler, it's also denser. I really should do a "deep dive" into our drag test with this setup - you really see the IATs drop; but I didn't include it in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iIWTfmtura2thLM

[@turbotunna3794]

I'll be interested to see if the meth straight into the volute has any impact on the impeller itself - I remember 20+ years ago talking to guys who were water injecting before their turbo on draw through setups and hearing that it can significantly pit and chip the blades. I never saw it for myself and there was a fair bit of debate about the legitimacy of the claims but it's something that stuck in my mind... Another great vid, thanks!

[@AlexLTDLX]

Thank you - since the methanol is going straight into the volute, I don't think it'll even come in contact with the impeller. But I do need to install the solenoid - the methanol drips through the system very slowly without it.

[@bigpowerhouse11]

​@AlexLTDLX then there is a possibility that yhe shudder while spraying meth could be cooling the compressor enough that the impeller, while under boost, is more rigid, therefore transferring more vibration through the system.

[@codithheretic110]

have you found the knock limit of this combination (without the methanol)? or pretty much tuned for best power and never saw knock?

[@AlexLTDLX]

It's a low compression engine design for boost. It's only 8.8 to 1. So no, we basically never see knock certainly not naturally aspirated

[@Justa4banger79]

I get a 35 to 45 degree drop to my intake temp. And my intake temp sensor is located in my lower intake. Sooo yeah. The cooler air and denser air compressed higher in the combustion chamber. All the magic happens in the cylinder... 💪😎🤘🤘🤘

[@nicnoknoo]

The boost pressure pulsing.. could that be the methanol injector itself pulsing fluid into the intake tract?

[@AlexLTDLX]

Could be... I really don't know. It's like looking a AM radio - the jitter is further modulated by a slower pulse... but your guess is as good of a guess as any. The nozzles do have elements internally that spin.

[@Alice.1219]

I've already contacted line to line and am getting my turbos coated. Makes logical sense of greater compressor efficiency by decreasing wheel to housing clearance. I have a 5th gen 3.6 V6 with rear mounted twin Borg Warner 6258 EFR turbos. Anxious to see results. Great data and love your electric turbo build. Wish you would begin manufacturing and selling these because I would convert my build.

[@ryanmenke9554]

alex, you ever heard of micronel out of switzerland?

[@Saddedude]

how are you controlling the meth? Pulsing the nozzles could be cauding the jittery boost graph

[@AlexLTDLX]

Just dead-headed into the nozzles. You could be right.

[@Saddedude]

@AlexLTDLX pwm on the pump or just a boost switch? And what size nozzles? 3x is alot for 500hp depending on nozzle size. Make sure you run an inline filter (i put mine on the suction side of the pump) It doesnt take much too clog the nozzles

[@ronn147]

Hey Alex. Got a question for ya. I see your temps sky rocket down when doing a run. Now if you have water meth injection installed but temps don’t come down while injecting in boost is it too small nozzles or too small pump or possibly both? I’m running 2 nozzles one before the compressor one at the throttle body and temp slowly climbs. Just wondering if you have seen this before.

[@AlexLTDLX]

Most likely too small nozzles.

[@ronn147]

@@AlexLTDLX thanks for the reply! I got the aem ones like you have installed now and 2 of those has it working right! It’s really nice cuz I could try different combos to get the right amount. You hit the nail on the head. I appreciate it

[@SpecialEDy]

I hate "methanol injection". I'm building a gasoline/methanol engine, except I'm injecting 100% methanol and 0% gasoline at WOT. I wish the people spraying washer fluid into their engines would call it methanol spray or something. Yall are making it impossible to search for real alcohol engine information.

[@SpecialEDy]

This brings up what real Methanol could do for your engine. Blown Alcohol is HUGE. You're like doubling the amount of mass of exhaust gas through the turbo. With E85 you're talking 2 atmospheres of boost, with M1 race fuel, you're looking at 4 atmospheres of boost with a high static compression wngine. Extra boost just due to the incompressible fuel. Better volumetric efficiency due to the mass of the fuel. Super ridiculously cool, your engine will be colder at the end of a run than at the start.

[@Go4BrokeOffroad]

Is your methanol pump self regulated, or does it have a return system? Maybe it's the pulse from the pump building and releasing pressure?

[@AlexLTDLX]

It's just dead heading into the nozzles. There's no return. You could be right, but I'm pretty happy with it as is - taking the car from a 12.2 to a 9.9 in the quarter is pretty good you probably saw the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iIWTfmtura2thLM I'm looking forward to being able to tweak the setup even more. I think under the right conditions we could see 9.6's at 140 or so.

[@Go4BrokeOffroad]

@@AlexLTDLX I watch as much as I can sir. I saw this issue using a methanol pump to a fuel injector. While in the 60-100% duty cycle you could watch the pump pulse. I just added a regular old fuel regulator to the system with a return. All -6 small stuff.

[@Turbogto_guy]

I spray preturbo. Been doing it for years. It’s not going to catch fire. What happens when you have a fire and you over saturate with oxygen? It blows it out.

[@AlexLTDLX]

That is not true - and if anyone reads this comment please don't try it. It is impossible to "oversaturate" a fire with oxygen and put it out. Fire is literally the rapid oxidation of a material. In fact, adding oxygen to a fire will speed up the reaction until it explodes - with enough oxygen, all consumable material (in this case, even iron and steel are considered "consumable") will be almost instantly consumed. Like when you turn up the oxygen knob on an oxy acetylene torch too fast and the flame goes out with a pop - the pop is an explosion that has used up all available fuel (acetylene) instantly - which is why the flame goes out; but if there was enough acetylene, you, your house, your car and everything around would be engulfed in an explosive fireball almost instantly. Oxygen MOST DEFINITELY WILL NOT PUT OUT A FIRE; IT WILL MAKE IT WORSE UNTIL THERE IS NOTHING LEFT TO BURN. I cannot stress this enough - the counter is very dangerous misinformation to spread around; it's the kind of misinformation that can kill people. And on to the point - if the motor fails, we have enough power to draw a 4" long plasma arc that has in other videos sawn through a thick aluminum housing in seconds; and nothing I have puts it out - I know, I tried. Methanol, even in a 50/50 by mass or volume mix will certainly be ignited by such an arc.

[@Turbogto_guy]

@@AlexLTDLX literally tons of people spray preturbo. Not one person has caught their car on fire from spraying preturbo

[@AlexLTDLX]

I understand it's rare. But we've already had a number of fires/explosions by the compressor from electrical parts failing (here's just one example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZ-ZmXeIqLKNmpo - can you imagine what would've happened going down track spraying meth?) That's my concern. I'd be foolish to mix 35,000 watts and pure methanol within inches of each other.

[@Turbogto_guy]

@@AlexLTDLX well I did not consider your electric ordeal. But a normal turbo, no worries. It’s actually a thing to sprag preturbo.

[@Turbogto_guy]

You should have been able to add more than one degree of timing. Did you attempt to?

[@AlexLTDLX]

I didn't say we added 1 degree of timing. We added small bits of timing as the engine wanted based on Ray's experience as a tuner. We added a couple of degrees here, pulled back a bit there, etc. But as the engine is already close to maximum BMEP, there wasn't a lot of additional cylinder pressure to be had from timing. We can probably extract a little more power with a little more timing, but other dyno tests I've done in the past have shown as you get closer to maximum BMEP, timing starts having less and less of an effect. If you're out in left field, 1 degree can add 30 hp. If you're two degrees away from optimal, adding 1 degree may only give you 3-5 hp. And that optimal point is a moving target based on a bunch of variables. Ray has enough experience that he can make a dyno pull, and based on the shape of the graph and the sound of the engine he can dial in the timing. And he also has enough experience to know when to stop. I'm good, but I'm not as good as Ray. I still end up pulling plugs and such.

[@Turbogto_guy]

@@AlexLTDLX gotcha. I misunderstood and thought you only added one degree and didn’t try any further.

[@Justa4banger79]

Surface temp swnsor..sensor... doesn't lie if your worried about "wetting " how bout after a good hard run... stop and pop the hood.... for me I can physically touch and feel how darn cold my intake is. Before run was smoking hot. PROOF ALLDAY.

[@AlexLTDLX]

This is exactly the argument - the methanol wets the sensor and cools it off through its latent heat of vaporization as it vaporizes. If that's true, then the same thing happens on the inside of the intake manifold, making the manifold cool off. But how much of that cooling effect affects the intake charge? I tend to think it's a bit of both; but methanol is known to be a very cool running fuel. A few years back on a drag racing show I was doing, we put a camera right on the injector hat of a methanol fueled, blown big-block car. By the time the car was at the end of the track, there was condensation on the injector hat and blower.

[@MrJDRACING]

should have lock the timing to the same for your test its show on the graph the meth had 3 to 4 degree more because your tune pull timing whit the air temp beying too high you could have desable it run the timing at safe level looking at your graph around 20 degree at the top wgit just pump the make another run whit the meth would show you the cooling the add timing to it

[@learysinsight5796]

pump pulse, you need a snubber.

[@familytruckster2009]

I know what it did at the track.

[@AlexLTDLX]

Lol. Shhhh..... but it'll be public soon enough. I can tell you I've looked at the data logs and there is more to be had. If everything's aligned, maybe close to another half a second (ok - maybe more like 3-4 tenths, but who knows...)

[@dennis-nz5im]

First