Ep. 280 | Defensive Handgun Ammo Breakdown with Hornady®

What the heck makes a defensive handgun round right for the application? Ballistician, Jayden Quinlan, from Hornady joins Mark Boardman and Ryan Muckenhirn to answer this question and more. Bullet design, powder selection, penetration requirements in specific media, and a host of other important factors, this is a podcast you don’t want to miss. Your life may depend on it.
00:00 - Intro
4:19 - History
15:08 - Depth of Penetration, Weight Retention
21:38 - Propellants
22:57 - Casings
24:16 - Bullet Shape and Design
30:44 - Bullet Diameter
45:21 - Hunting Use?
53:50 - Future Developments?
58:44 - Movies vs Real Life
1:02:19 - Outro
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation™ podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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[@searchBLOC941]

I cherish the fact that Vortex doesn't push shameless plugs for their products and actually has solid conversations with other companies within the industry. These deep and legit conversations is something I crave. Thanks ya'll, 'preciate you.

[@ZADDY44]

This man is killing Fudd lore left and right and I love it.

[@TheGunner11]

That Fuddlore had a family :(

[@RMM--uv7uk]

I can listen to Jayden speak for hours , in his little Quinlans Corner. When I reload, I always have the Hornady Podcast playing over and over. Every single time I watch I grasp new information.

[@WillMartin-hw2uh]

Great Podcast. I always enjoy Jayden's insight. Great job by all of you.

[@VortexNation]

So glad you enjoyed it! We appreciate you tuning in, Will!

[@matthewgrice6902]

Quinlan's Corner on Vortex what a great combo. Love the video. Great info. Great tips. And always great stories. Thanks to all.

[@shannonskinner8367]

I really enjoy your pod cast.I learn something every show.Keep up the good work.

[@conro7003]

Love your podcasts!

[@DaveL9170]

I have been an officer for 29 years. During that time have responded to dozens of shootings that resulted in death. No even once. Not once have I ever been to a scene where bad guy killed another person with a FMJ round and the projectile killed or even injured another party. It doesn’t happen anywhere near the amount of time the internet makes you believe. Not even close. And they are still just as dead. FMJ rounds work too.

[@Kross8761]

Yeah FMJ's will certainly kill, they have since WWI with the 1911 (and probably before then) but a hollowpoint is better in basically every way. The wound channels speak for themselves, any FMJ is going to poke a (more or less) caliber sized hole through the target, which is certainly lethal if that wound track hits something vital. A good hollowpoint however will expand and cut a larger wound channel and STILL get good penetration. The Federal HST's that I carry will punch roughly 16-18 inches through a bad guy and cut a 60-65 caliber hole through them the whole way. FMJ's are certainly lethal, but there's no argument to be made that they're equal. "Over penetration" is not something I worry much about, the odds of hitting somebody AFTER my bullet travels through an attacker is roughly as likely as me winning the mega millions tomorrow: it can happen in theory, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Something that a lot of people don't consider when talking about penetration depth in gel is that gel doesn't have bones, striking a bone causes a significant drop in penetration depth and humans are just full of the pesky things, they're everywhere.

[@peterconnan5631]

Thanks guys, very interesting.

[@joseesparza4133]

Excellent information. Thank you guys

[@VortexNation]

🤜 🤛

[@DakotaDinwoodie]

Sellier and Bellot brass that i purchased in the form of the cheapest ammo i could find for my creedmoor has proven to be the most consistent and accurate cases for my particular rifle.

[@jamesstanley4764]

Thanks Guys. Always top notch.

[@VortexNation]

Thank YOU for tuning in, James!

[@kennyc944]

After listening to this episode, I really want to pack a few boxes of the Critical duty +p in my arsenal just in case. Especially during colder seasons. Thanks gentlemen!

[@stephenfannin6482]

Great episode, can we get Barnes on to talk about their defensive ammo next?

[@BabaNovac792]

...and Federal

[@chadillac95]

Barnes needs to start their own podcast! They're still the leaders in the monolithic expanding bullets

[@dbdavec68]

Guess my JHPs are getting moved from my home defense gun to the rainy day box. Great podcast, super informative and interesting.

[@MrSabram07]

This guy is awesome more interviews with this guy

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for tuning in!

[@perrytilton5221]

I am personally not the biggest fan of having separate "Duty" and "Defensive" lines of ammo. It adds complications to a line-up, unecessarily, in my opinion. Given the recent years with car jackings and mass shootings, I want the ability to shoot through barriers, such as glass and sheet metal, and put down some meaningful effect on the bad guy. I understand that depth is a difficult metric to balance because of fear of liability or damage to others. When, not if, the round fails to expand it acts like an FMJ, and will continue to not dump energy into the target, but continue through. One rule that people only remember half of is know your target, and what is beyond it. Nobody should rely on 10" penetration test to prevent shooting innocent by-standers. Two things drop a target immediately: T-box shot and a spine shot. Lungs and heart are terminal shots, but if the brain is still able to communicate to the system, it is able to continue on, however short it may be. In shootout videos I have seen many scenarios where druggies continue on after a mag dump in their body, and I have seen real big guys take multiple mag dumps, and continue on to harm LEOs or normal civilians. All in common was the central nervous system wasn't shut down. I am a fan of solid coppers from Lehigh Defense because they penetrate 18-20" without deformation, but still provide rather good-excellent wound channels.

[@BollingMachineTool]

I only use Hornady Critical Defense 185 grain FTX 45 ACP, 73 grain FTX 223 Rem, and 155 grain FTX 308 Win ammo. Also it’s the same ammo my wife uses in her concealed carry as well.

[@jeffd5310]

The guy that slumped over the steering wheel wasnt the guy that got shot through the arm with the silvertip. The guy that shot all of the FBI agents was the one that was fatally shot by the silvertip that didn't penetrate far enough to stop him sooner.

[@64samsky]

That's why I carry the 357Sig. I reload.

[@DirtNastyCivilian]

Oh the 357 sig. That poor thing went the way of the 45 Gap.

[@Kross8761]

I would like to preface this by saying that for hunting I absolutely love hornady bullets, the ELD-X and ELD-M perform wonderfully within their velocity bands (ELD-X is more forgiving at higher velocities, ELD-M is more forgiving at lower velocities) and the CX line is awesome (and every bit as good as the "gold standard" for monolithic bullets the venerable Barnes TTSX/LRX) and their defensive handgun ammunition is excellent, no doubt about it, and is probably my #2 choice as a "go to" for self defense. However, my #1 i have to say is the Federal HST, it's just amazing. Every test I've ever done, regardless of heavy clothing, across a pretty wide velocity band (for handgun bullets) and time and time again it just performs flawlessly. I've never shot into a target (meat or gel, bare or heavy clothing barrier) and not had excellent and reliable expansion, the only thing short of "perfect" is it will defirm when it hits a bone, but it still expands and still punches deep, and it does it every single time. The critical defense and critical duty lines from hornady are excellent, and they also perform consistently well, but every test ive ever sone has ended with the HST (specifically the 124+P) outperforming both in expansion and penetration (even if it's just a little bit) My top two bullet manufacturers are Hornady and Federal. Hornady makes amazing rifle bullets and very good pistol bullets, Federal makes (IMO) the best pistol bullet, and also good rifle bullets.

[@jobo1647]

I'm building a 1911 currently, and I plan on clambering it for .460 Rowland. Nearly .44mag performance in an autoloader.

[@12vcumminscowboy]

I would like to have another opinion on ammo, because obviously this gentleman is biased for Hornady. I’d like to hear from the federal, Nosler, other brands. And I’d like to hear their opinions on carbines like the Ruger Homesteader and the like.

[@xtphreak]

Bill Wilson likes Lehigh defender & penetrator Course he bought the company cuz he liked it too 😊

[@johnelliott7375]

Ballistics is a great field what do you have to take to help become one.

[@jrhunt414]

Thanks for putting muck and quinlon the same show.

[@searchBLOC941]

Also, the secant ogive on that bullet painting in the background bugs me cuz it don't line up.

[@ethanfullerton507]

Can you tell Hornady to start making 5.7×28 please 😂

[@Dmounts]

I wanna see more .22lr too. I think I’ve found just one by them and it’s tough to get

[@Hammerback972]

Did i miss the part about ft lbs of energy and the part that plays in ballistics against an agressor? Seems like a projectile dumping 750ft lbs center mass would be different than a 380 ft lbs projectile dumping on the same size/shape perpetrator? Or maybe its just about how many oranges, pork ribs, and fleece blankets a bullet goes through?

[@bryanshull372]

Check out the 460 Rowland conversion for 1911s. It gives the 1911, 44 mag power. Get this in a double stack 1911 and bears be ware!!!

[@letsdothis9063]

I told my buddy about.460 Rowland for his .45. I'm not sure that they had a kit for his gun, or what. He just ordered the gun that they sell at Rowland. I am a 9mm guy, and am super interested in the .360 Rowland. We don't have brown bears here, so .357 power is more than enough for me. I only worry about a potential self-defense situation. Hopefully I never end up in that type of scenario, but I can just imagine the attorneys going nuts over a "hopped up ,super powerful hand cannon".

[@bryanshull372]

@@letsdothis9063 they have kits for any modern, standard 1911 and the Glock. I put mine on a Ruger SR 1911 and it works great.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

40's popularity was entirely dependent on the FBI using it. The FBI used it, so a bunch of police agencies used it because the FBI used it, and then a bunch of people bought it because cops were using it.

[@zack9912000]

Why I have always said its bad to follow the trends of government agencys whos bean counters and politics control what they carry, not what is best. 10mm is a true man stopper but requires much more training. The police and the FBI bean counters want to pay for.

[@j.r.6271]

If we already have pistol cartridges sufficient to do the task at hand, what benefit would 'upgrading' to higher pressure, hotter, faster ammo give? We already have met the metrics. You can't really kill something more dead if it is already dead. If you take slow, short barrel 9x19, meet the metrics, slap an extra 250 fps of a longslide .357 SIG into the equation, and only reach the same metrics (because you don't want to go past that 18"), you lose ammo, gain recoil, and net nothing extra because option A already worked, right? The interesting dilemma is dealing with whether you want that 10" or closer to 18". If you prepare for a full 18" shoulder-to-shoulder and you end up not needing even half that, you end up with the same issue as an fmj going straight through, a Gun Rule 4 issue of being aware what is beyond your target. This is really why I tend to think of hollow points in the same light as fmjs. Hollow points give you that turbulent energy deposition and the wider wound channel to cut tissue and nick vitals you otherwise would have missed, but you still always have to assume your bullet will punch clean through and be aware of your surroundings. This is also why I would rather err on the side of more penetration because if you need to fire, you have to absolutely be sure you have enough penetration to stop the threat and you need to be aware of what is beyond your target, take a better angle, etc anyways.

[@samueladams1775]

I like the Hornady. 44 magnum critical defense. Good expansion and penetration on feral hogs.

[@zack9912000]

Yep, no one is hunting them with 9mm. People use 45acp 10mm and 44 mag.

[@troythalheimer160]

45 ACP still have one advantage. While Hornady has made great strides and making bullets that level the playing field between the the old lumbering 45 and it's newer faster smaller counterparts. At home I can't cast Hornady's awesome. So for the home Lead caster....slow and steady.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

You can also cast another diameters.

[@troythalheimer160]

@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz yes but if you want to throw a large mass to compensate for crummy lead pistol bullets, 45 APC.... Does it well.

[@zack9912000]

People love to say 9mm is just as good, 9mm was a trash round untill technology improved. 45ACP also got design improvements as well. Never carry ammo based on government agencies' choices. At the end of the day, you dont dare hunt bears, boars, deer with 9mm. Yet you can do it all day with 45acp, 44 mag, and 10mm.

[@russellgavin1820]

Quinlan corner on the road.

[@johnelliott7375]

Bonded it the only way to go.

[@michaelsweeten6009]

I don't like him insinuating that shooting through a window or barrier is something only LE could have a need for

[@franklinmarks7845]

If I work for hornady I would literally find cartridges that have been watered down make a specific bullet that could get torqued out of its mind whether it's from a 4-inch Barrel or if it's from a 16-inch Barrel will I be able to provide similar expansion and penetration but to bring those velocities back up so people could get hunting cartridges for some of these smaller calibers like play 10 Mill I want to know why they don't make a soft point out of like like 150 155 grain bullet for 10 Mill and torque it out of its mind and make it specifically for pistols like start a pistol line of ammunition and a long gun side for pistol caliber carbines so they don't get mixed up, basically if you're going to run this pistol bullet out of your carbine length barrel you're going to get terrible ballistics the bullets going to fall apart but if you run it out of your pistol

[@cw7legionofpewrights596]

The car windshield argument civilian self defense can be utter bull, how often are people traveling in their cars??

[@mattcomchoc2957]

Good convo, but way to much "Self defense doesn't need to penetrate vehicle" talk. With the massive increase globally of the use of vehicles as mass-casualty inducing weapons, the ability to penetrate a windshield would seem to have much more universal application these days

[@IHWKR]

Something called backstop comes to mind.

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

Trucks of Peace. And a Ford Escape.

[@hawkinsoutdoors1761]

I agree. A criminal doesn’t change if he’s attacked a civilian vs a cop. I carry 124g +p critical duty. But I also don’t have any guns with a shorter than 4in barrel. Also I can’t think of a situation where someone shot a person that was assaulting them and a projectile went threw that person and hit another innocent person. I’d be more concerned with misses than a pass threw hitting someone

[@dilorenzopiero5162]

👍👍👍

[@johnelliott7375]

6×45?

[@mopardoctor9966]

Still have several hundred 45 ACP ZombieMax to load.

[@zack9912000]

At the end of the day, no one is hunting deer, boar, bear with 9mm. People do use 45acp, 10mm, and 44 mag.🤷‍♂️ Will stick with my 45 acp and 10mm handguns.

[@completesystemfailure4669]

Y'all remember the black talon ?

[@whiplash636]

I don't understand the obsession with overpenetration; the entire idea is based on the assumption that you don't miss your target. Ya'll do what you want. As far as I'm concerned, I want my ammo to penetrate through my target, go around the earth, then hit them again after I step out of the way. I use 125gr V-Crowns meant for 357 Sig in my 9mm major carry rounds, clocking in at over 1400fps out of a 4" barrel.

[@jeremiah7855]

Hornady can you improve 380 acp ballistics we all know 380 struggles with power and getting to 12 inch min with a 380 that will expand isnt easy xtp is one of the best and of course federal has the hydra shok that does ok with 380 acp and we all know 380acp is making a come back

[@Hammerback972]

I carry a 45 cause they dont make a 46. But they make a 50. So why not a 50?

[@Ni999]

Very interesting storytelling. The FBI used 9mm Winchester Silvertip hollow points in the Florida shootout. They were selected based on the Winchester claim for limited penetration, specifically called out in the patent as not to exceed 9", and verified by the FBI. It was selected because of their concerns about over penetration. The Winchester patent did not specify the test medium density nor have I ever found the FBI documenting what they used at the time. It obviously had to be well above 10%. There was no reality where anyone was going to stand up and say that the bullets in Florida did exactly what was expected of them and were bought on purpose not long before the gunfight. No no, the problem had to be a) 9mm was no good, and b) no one is really advancing bullet shapes and test verification. Really great moments in fuddlore, beautifully repeated here. I also enjoyed how the .38 will never compete with the .40 and .45 because you can't get the chamber pressure high enough for higher velocity. That's great to know. I went and unloaded my .357 because I've been misinformed for years. Elmer Keith must have been some kind of really stupid uber boomer or something. Good thing that someone started paying attention to metallurgy, shape, and loading with respect to caliber especially in these last 15 years. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

He told you why the FBI did what they did. He's also right, which is why you mentioned .38 not competing with 40 and 45 and then mentioned unloading your _357_ because 38 can't compete. The case had to be remade so it wouldn't be chambered in guns that couldn't handle the higher pressures. I assume you know Kieth blew up a Colt SSA trying to play with 45 Colt, in part because he used the wrong bullets, but mostly because the gun couldn't handle the pressure. Cartridges aren't made in a vacuum.

[@Ni999]

@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz He gave a version of why the FBI did what iit did couched in complete nonsense divorced from what really happened. He was on a roll when he got to the part about what a 38 bullet could do - so did he lead that into the 357 or did he simply continue with his canned litany? I listened several times before criticizing, it's very clear what fish he was selling. You are correct to assume that I'm very familiar with Elmer Keith and what he did to drive the industry. I don't think that Elmer was the kind of guy who would work for a company for less than 8 years in total and claim on video that it was 11 years but we'll never know. I do know that the .357 came long before the .40 S&W and I know that most agencies were sunsetting their 38s well before the 40 was even a thing. Of course, if you actually believe in the modern fake history of guns and ammunition then you don't understand cause, effect, and why it's important to understand history so you don't have to repeat it - which would make my entire reply a waste of my time.

[@daig54]

Every bullet has a lawyer/lawsuit/charges potentially attached.

[@wkswchannel21]

Perfect Data…

[@jeffd5310]

This video convinced me to not buy from companies that sell "civilian" defensive ammo despite how hard they tried to sell it.

[@45.Slanging]

Overpenetration is a myth. 10/10 it missed shots that hit innocents.. If live in a cold weather region where people will have a Heavy coat, fleece sweater or 2 and 2 t shirts think about FN FMJ for winter carry.

[@imaplaystationog1509]

Too bad hornady quit nickel plating the critical defense

[@hawkinsoutdoors1761]

They only did it when supplies were low. The critical duty is still nickel plated.

[@batmanlovesbassfishin6747]

Ryan must have chicken legs if he doesn't wear shorts.😂

[@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz]

I carry 9mm NATO ammo. I can buy it in bulk, which means I can train with it effectively, and it drops bodies about as well as any other handgun round. They're all crap, and that's the secret. Some are less crap, but they're all crap.

[@lililililililili8667]

Ballistician is a fancy name for a Starbucks coffee boy

[@jasonrad9332]

Posted from your Mom’s basement. Tell her I’ll be over later.

[@franklinmarks7845]

I wish Hornady would make 10 mm great again start watering down all their ammunition and leaving it up to Reloaders like Underwood Buffalo Bore and even Palmetto State to load the 10 mm properly😢

[@CrimeVid]

You sure they're re-loaders ?

[@henryherman9113]

44 mag. For me..300 grain Hardcast in bear country..240 XTP For the rest...

[@samueladams1775]

Buffalo Bore makes a hard cast 340 grn. +P+ that is an excellent round. Deep penetration and a serious hard hitter with excellent velocity.