VW Id.3 - How much more range with heat pump at -9°C

[@BatteryLife]

I know that 287-264 is not 22km. All the numbers here are rounded.

[@typxxilps]

pi mal Daumen ... wie auch immer das auf english heißen mag.

[@achrist86]

Pi times thumb 👍 😜

[@chemobejk]

Rule of thumb

[@richard--s]

@@chemobejk no, a rule of thumb means: "normally it is .... this value", like "a rule of thumb is, that normally we get snow in winter near the alps, but no snow at the atlantic ocean". But they wanted to say that the values are rounded.

[@JPetr94]

My conclusion of this vid: heat pump is efficient and Tool is cool. 😃

[@pignonMZ6]

I think the heat pump makes more sense the longer you drive. I bought my ID3 with the 77kw battery (ID3 Pro S) and bought the heat pump, anything that can improve the range is by definition good, so yay for the heat pump.

[@3xLau]

Hello ... you did not try the travel assist in the Max, It is surprisingly good! The heat pump also works for cooling in the summer. When software 2.1 is finished, you will be able to preheat on the way to the fast charger so that the car's battery will be 26 degrees hot and 100% ready for fast charger.

[@Blindatube]

The heat pump also works for cooling in the summer...no comment...

[@davidbelecci6970]

The battery pre heat sadly never came … also not on heat pump cars.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

You are spot on, Bjoern Nyland measured ID.3 Plus with heatpump at 20.1 kWh/100 km at 90 km/h and -10 °C.

[@remco6816]

I had 17.7kwh efter a fast charge with -7.5 100 to 90kmh trip. Some slower parts though. Same trip withou warm battery -10 was around 25kwh

[@SeriouslyJaded]

Have a Max with a heat pump and usually 19 to 20C temp setting is warm enough even when it’s sub zero outside.

[@terryrigden4860]

Thanks, you have just saved me a shed load of money, I won't be specifying a heat pump now

[@johndoyle4723]

It was a £900 extra on my Kia EV6, in pure financial terms for me, in a relatively mild part of the UK, not worth it. For 3-4 months a year giving only a small % increase in range/efficiency, it will never pay for itself, maybe high mileage in colder climates, then possibly. THanks for the video, it was very interesting.

[@Pymundo]

That comment has made my mind up. No heat pump. Cupra are also charging £900 optional extra.

[@EV.Furkan]

Great test, thats also the feel i have with my id.4[PTC]. heatpump owners gets 10-12% better consumption/range at 0C deg. its alright

[@nickieredshaw7835]

Thanks for another great video take care and safe travels

[@KJSvitko]

Electric vehicles and battery technology keeps getting better every year.

[@dennyaberg7962]

Great test Chris. Thank you for your dedication.

[@axelotl86]

Sound test with Tool? That’s a Sub!

[@BatteryLife]

Always Pneuma. Great recorded song.

[@axelotl86]

@@BatteryLife definitely. I still have my 10.000 days CD in repeat in my car since … well… release.

[@otm205]

There is not a whole lot of relative efficiency gain that can be achieved by tweaking the software if the PTC only draws 3kW and heat pump 1kW. Even if the heat pump consumption would be halved, the saving would be minimal. One thing I would have liked to have been included in the test however is the energy used for preheating. If the PTC uses more power when the car is cold, there might be a bigger difference between the systems as well.

[@BatteryLife]

True, but not for range. That is just money for power than.

[@otm205]

That depends whether you are plugged in while preheating or not.

[@dukeoflakeshore5805]

Well 20 km can mean reach the powerstation or call the ADAC :-)

[@CptHans]

Or you can pay ADAC for 20 years for the cost of the heatpump :-)

[@dukeoflakeshore5805]

@@CptHans But you exclude the CO2-effekt!

[@karl-heinzoehling483]

Or, you reduce the heating temperature, then you can also increase the range.

[@bq5577x]

@@karl-heinzoehling483 yes but trust decreases comfort... The model 3 is MUCH more efficient with heat pump, cool to see the ID.3 also benefits from it. Awesome!

[@zminski]

Excellent test! 2kwh/100km at 90km/h seems reasonable and still not enough for the heatpump to be worth paying for. But I think that many id3 drivers cannot charge at home (the ones living in cities - apartments). So, in substance, the heating of the battery is also reducing the range in those cases. If you can borrow the max again, consider testing that. It will get views, i guarantee it :) Do you know if the big software update will add the option to turn on/off the battery heater? I think it’s a big consumer and I would keep it on most of the time. But not all the time. So I would prefer to be able to control when - like in the Kona with winter mode. For instance, (Say you have 15% left, it’s cold and need to drive 50km - it’s a risk if the battery heater eats 6-7% from those 15%). And one more thing: i experienced a big inconsistency once after charging and then driving on the highway for an hour at 120km/h at minus 10 degrees : since start consumption showed 23kwh/100km; since charge showed 26. Same trip, same distance, different consumption. And the real consumption calculated based on delta SOC was 30kwh/100km. The computer is lying sometimes (higher speeds+cold temperature). #Kwhgate

[@danielardelian2]

Another way to look at this: The PTC car used 74 km * 0.221 kWh / km = 16.354 kWh The heatpump car used 76 km * 0.197 kWh / km = 14.972 kWh So the heatpump car used 1.382 kWh less over a duration of 54 minutes. 1.382 kWh over 54 minutes = 1.24 kW instant consumption. The heat pump car had an instant consumption 1.24 kW lower than the PTC car.

[@glockmanish]

These 1,24kW are saved over time. So the lower your average speed of the trip is, the higher the energy saving.

[@arnesmebye2513]

Thank you for the effort - it's intereseting to know if a heatpump is worth the extra cost. But forgive me for claiming that your test has somewhat reduced validity due to one important aspect: The wheels. Different tyres (type and dimension) and difference in the pressure can count for a bigger difference than what you measured (8%). This means that the real benefit of a heatpump is even less, or maybe much bigger. Still in the void...

[@marcusevjourney566]

The heater in the ID.3 is phenomenal. I have never known any car to heat so well. I look forward to testing the air conditioning in the summer with 40 degrees outside. The Tesla Model 3 failed at this, hopefully the ID.3 will not.

[@renebergqvist599]

Try the Nissan Leaf. It heats much faster and uses both heatpump and PTC. BTW the Nissan Heatpump is very efficient - I get lower consumption in the Leaf than the ID.3. The ID.3 usually hovers around 1,5 to 2 kW when warm around 0. The Leaf maxes at 1,5 kW when warm and from time to time shuts down. I also have a model 3 without heatpump.... That is just a much more efficient car even without heatpump.... I wonder if VW doesn't have some optimization to do - it should be able to beat the old 24 kWh Leaf in winter efficiency for sure.... but so far it doesn't.

[@raphi25895]

@@renebergqvist599 it is not surprising that the model 3 is more economical. Sedans are aerodynamically better

[@abraxastulammo9940]

@@raphi25895 Wind resistance should be about 20 % more for ID.3 being a higher, more comfortable and urban oriented car - so if it consumes less than that at higher speeds it is a bonus. ;-)

[@raphi25895]

@@abraxastulammo9940 i would also prefer an hatchback because of the practicality

[@alanlowe5150]

@@renebergqvist599 When I ran my 30kWh Leaf more than 150 miles I started to wonder whether I was sitting on an oven hotplate as the battery just got hotter and hotter. (-: At 200 miles it was in the red zone after the third rapid charge. I agree that it had a good heater and the heat pump worked well. Unfortunately no amount of heating is much use if the car says 'no more' after 200+ miles, unless left to cool down for many hours. All the people who write that they went on 12 hour trips of 400 miles or more without ever experiencing this can 'go whistle'. I'm a professional engineer and I can smell what's in those claims. The id.3 has got excellent heating and cooling systems for the cabin and the battery and I look forward to just driving my car any distance in comfort without such concerns ever again.

[@jaumesinglavalls5486]

Interesting, results and opinion, But I think the test should be done without warming the interior before. I just watch a video before about the warming interior and is one pain point on this case. Imagine you go to shop into some big suppermarkt and you cannot plug it there, it's not the range in this case, but is also the consumtion. Also, heating uses energy over time, not over distance. which means, different averages speed, will get you different results. As you say in the final picture, one is using double of power per hour. Also, maybe was better to have some termomether or similar, to ensure the temperature... (Appart from that I like your videos)

[@BatteryLife]

My point was to see the consumption while driving. People heat up their EV before driving when plugged in. That is the normal use.

[@GTRDRIVER1]

The "additional Consumtion" at Cars without Heat Pump and only a PTC Heater is not only at this cold weather - in Fact many Cars with Heat pump also have a PTC Heater for faster heating up on Startup and Additional Heat at realy Cold Conditions where Heatpump only Systems have a Problem - The Heatpump does it best economical Job between +10 and -5 Degree Celsius as lower the Themperature is as more uneconomical is a Heatpump ....

[@abraxastulammo9940]

-10 degrees is no problem for efficiency according to the graph at www.goingelectric.de/forum/download/file.php?id=88853

[@lucienl9465]

Thank you for these videos

[@vc2616]

Great comparison 😀

[@computerbob06]

I think the extra range would matter if you were in the UK and turned up to the service station's only charger....... and its broken!?

[@infinityNmore]

Thanks for this comparison 🙂. So in summary: Heat pump is good to extend range but too expensive compared to the energy savings. From my quick calculations, at 15k km per year, I’ll need more than the lifetime of the car to recuperate the additional cost...

[@BatteryLife]

Exactly. But at this temp. Maybe at other temps. It is more efficient.

[@infinityNmore]

@@BatteryLife yes , true. Could you redo this test at 5C-10C? 😉. And during summer, when using the A/C, I suppose the Heat pump won’t be useful.

[@BatteryLife]

No sense in doing it in the summer. I did the test already at 0 degrees and sunny weather.

[@infinityNmore]

@@BatteryLife great, thanks

[@alanlowe5150]

Your summary is right and it would need long-term ownership to cover the cost. I doubt whether any addition to a car would 'pay for itself'; in fact, it could be argued that, once one decides to drive over about 17000 miles a year in Western Europe, just the fact of running an electric car compared to running an ICE car will pay for the entire cost of the car over time. That is where I was heading with a Nissan Leaf and is why some taxi firms run them. My fuel cost savings alone were running at £2500 per year compared to my Nissan X-Trail (I know it's bigger!) and so the breakeven point would have been after about ten years. The heat pump is a range extender that lets one have an extra 20 miles or so in cold conditions and thus makes having an electric car a little more viable in the first place. I speak with several years experience of a Leaf that just wouldn't quite hack the distances of my regular trips after a couple of years. If that additional range tips you over into buying one and you do some serious mileage, the kind of fuel savings that I was making eventually give you payback. One might as well argue that a bigger battery is not worth it as it won't pay for itself. The fact is that car ownership does not recover its costs (unless you are in the transport business). It's an expensive luxury that, over time, costs one a lot of money. Electric cars are just a cheaper way of having that luxury, over the lifetime of the car and if you drive a lot of miles. For anyone driving fewer miles or who buys new cars every three years, say, they are a poor choice. However, what one should do for transport then is another discussion and is a personal preference.

[@kevinn1158]

The wheel size doesn't affect the range unless the tires are actually larger. But this was good conditions to test as -8 is common night time temps here in Canada. ID4 will come standard with it when it arrives. Thanks chief! Hey live viewing of the Ioniq 5 reveal?

[@BatteryLife]

Yes, livestream with the world premiere.

[@nga319]

hi chris, du hattest im vorletzten video die punkte beschrieben, die dich nerven. u. a. die heizung, die sich beim vorheizen per app nicht wieder in deine standardmäßige einstellung zurück stellt. wenn du per app vom sofa aus vorheizt, und dann zum aufgewärmten auto kommst, schalte das vorheizen per app wieder aus, bevor du dich reinsetzt. dann bleibt deine vorherige einstellung erhalten. habe ich jetzt 2 tage getestet.

[@BatteryLife]

Interessant. Danke. Aber die 3 Knöpfe im Auto sind mir lieber als per App vorheizen ausschalten. Das dauert immer so lange und ich bin da gerade draußen beim Spazierengehen in der Kälte. Im Sommer vielleicht.

[@nga319]

@@BatteryLife das geht 10x schneller als das einschalten. app öffnen, klima stop, und schon hörst du ein klack, und heizung stoppt. 4 sec., so müsste das starten des vorheizens auch funktionieren.

[@karl-heinzoehling483]

Hi Chris, great test, thank you very much. If you drive at a higher average speed on the motorway, the heat pump advantage will be even less. Everyone has to evaluate whether a heat pump is worthwhile. Try controlling the heating with A/C, that only brings advantages for temperature control, as I found in my 1Plus, possibly also consumption advantages. Unfortunately, your test result does not confirm the VW statements about the range advantages with the heat pump system.

[@boerbiet237]

Good morning! Thanks For testing heatpump. Question: at 90 km per hour the results are clear, but heating starts at leaving Home, heading to the highway etcetera. Relative you use more energie For heating in compare To driving. Average speed is in dialyse life lower as 90

[@BatteryLife]

If you preheat before the difference should be similar to my test. Mine was a range test.

[@danielardelian2]

Good thing you checked that A/C is Off, because when A/C is on, the heat pump is actually running in reverse (cooling mode) taking heat from the interior to dehumidify

[@BatteryLife]

So you cannot heat the cabin and dehumidify with the heat pump at the same time?

[@danielardelian2]

@@BatteryLife If the heatpump is cooling / dehumidifying, the heat will come from the PTC. The PTC will re-heat air cooled by the heatpump for dehumidification purposes.

[@vladulescuadrian6080]

@@danielardelian2 But does the AC even work at such low temperature ? On an VW ICE car even when you have the AC on, the compressor does not start if the ambient temperature is below 3-4 degrees C.

[@danielardelian2]

@@vladulescuadrian6080 I know that in most ICE cars, the A/C usually doesn't work below 3 - 4 degrees, but I had an ICE car with a "MAX DEFROST" button that would force the A/C On for dehumidification even at NEGATIVE temperatures. So it is possible to make a car A/C that works for a short time in cooling mode at negative temperatures. I don't know yet if the ID3 A/C works at low temperatures. And there could also be a difference between heat pump vs. non-heat pump cars (they use different refrigerants, R744 vs. R1234y).

[@danielardelian2]

Here is the proof that on some ICE cars the A/C compressor works even at -7 C for "MAX WINDSCREEN DEFROST: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpyskKiCZ8uFpdE

[@Enhancer1985]

If you redo this test with final software (software is a thing which should have been mentioned in the aftermath) please include temperature of the footwell, center armrest and backseat. Was the roof sunshade open or closed? Roof has an impact too.

[@BatteryLife]

It was closed.

[@ram64man]

There has to be something wrong with the heat pump design, on the Nissan you don’t hear it at all in the cab other than the air flow , and a fridge noise outside muffled , the one in id3/id4 shouldn’t cause the wheel to vibrate and I wonder if the pump/compressor are not insulated it’s the only thing I can think of that causes that noise you mentioned as my friends and my demo had the same issue

[@BatteryLife]

I experienced the Kona with a heatpump and there it was even louder.

[@alanlowe5150]

I have the id.3 Life with heat pump and the noise from it is very mild inside the car. It's about the level of a fan turned to a low setting i.e. you only notice it if you try to listen for it. It's slightlier noisier outside but then so was my Leaf. There is absolutely no vibration from it. 'Battery Life''s experience of it leads me to think that the heat pump/motor on that particular car has a balancing issue i.e. it is out of balance when rotating and inducing vibration. It is possible that it is not properly secured down but it is more likely to be a balancing problem. I would expect a visit to the dealer would result in a component change and the problem would disappear. It is not a design issue; how otherwise could my car not have any noise or vibration?

[@ram64man]

@@alanlowe5150 so far my friend has been back 3 times to the dealer , finally they admitted after going out on a ride with him that it does cause vibration on the wheel, that shouldn’t be there, ironically it uses the part from the old e-golf and that had none of the noise he was getting (like a Raw over the fan noise and buzz in the compressor). From what I gather they are going to replace most of the heat pump system bar the heat exchanger , and redo the coolant pump. And fluid, they estimate including waiting for parts they will have the car a total of 10 days , let’s just say he is less than happy as he also has the phantom 12v drain and hopefully sort out why his unit won’t receive the firmware upgrade

[@ram64man]

@@alanlowe5150 so far my friend has been back 3 times to the dealer , finally they admitted after going out on a ride with him that it does cause vibration on the wheel, that shouldn’t be there, ironically it uses the part from the old e-golf and that had none of the noise he was getting (like a Raw over the fan noise and buzz in the compressor). From what I gather they are going to replace most of the heat pump system bar the heat exchanger , and redo the coolant pump. And fluid, they estimate including waiting for parts they will have the car a total of 10 days , let’s just say he is less than happy as he also has the phantom 12v drain and hopefully sort out why his unit won’t receive the firmware upgrade

[@alanlowe5150]

@@ram64man Thanks. So the conclusion is that fitting new parts will solve it, they think. I wish your friend good luck. It is a terrible thing that such extensive repairs are required on new vehicles. Previous experience of some Audi parts that I have examined has not filled me with confidence about VAG component quality. Some of the design is too lightweight, losing stiffness and functionality, apparently since cost reductions have become more important than a component carrying out its designed function reliably for the required number of miles or years. To that extent, I agree that there could be design problems but there is no excuse for producing and using a component that is defective in one new car and not in another. That is poor engineering.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

Did you have the OBD hooked up to see if the battery temperature went down so the battery heater was active? Or if the heatpump took warmth from the battery so it cools down faster and ironically must be heated again?

[@BatteryLife]

No. The battery heater did not run when I started and when I was finished. If it runs in between then at this temp you have to deal with it as consumption right now.

[@bilgyno1]

So, in two hours driving, you save around 4-5 kWh. That means that on a road trip you don't have to charge as much to make the next charging stop. Don't know the exact charging curves, but I can imagine that charging to 70% instead of 80% shaves around 10 minutes off your charging time.

[@BatteryLife]

In these conditions if you drive 2 hours that is around 4 kWh, which is 7%. From 80 to 87%, the Id.3 needs 6min. At lower SOC way less of course.

[@bilgyno1]

Ah yes, I was thinking about the ID.4 charge curve, but then it's around 5% (possibly more, because it's a bigger cabin to heat). So maybe 6 minutes indeed. Those additional minutes are annoying if you have to wait around for it. Still, the difference is smaller than what I was lead to believe by the sales person and other VW materials. Perhaps it will be updated, as it seems there's a lot of room for improvement.

[@mintburger50]

Can you tell me if the ID3 uses the heat pump for heating the battery aswell, or just for heating the interior of the car. Thanks.

[@BatteryLife]

Id.3 heats and cools the battery. Does not matter if you have a heatpump or not.

[@timt2708]

@@BatteryLife The question is if the battery heating is also done with that pump. If yes, this consumption would be lower too

[@ramdas363]

@@timt2708 By how much? Heat pumps don't make such a big difference, as you've seen in this test. The entire cabin heating only gives you 8% range increase, if at all. It wouldn't matter much.

[@IvanLayton]

You're excitement is generating heat, perhaps.

[@Mejnhardt101]

Were the batteries at the same temparature before the test? - Otherwise the test will not show correct results.

[@BatteryLife]

I say it in the video. Both cars were cold before. I heated them up. The battery heater heats the battery up to 13 degrees when you do that.

[@Mejnhardt101]

@@BatteryLife But you did not actually measure the battery temperatures? Did they stand still for 12 hours before in the same place?

[@martindomscheit2004]

You had ECO on the passenger side for the heater in your car. In the MAX you had 21° on both sides. Interesting if this makes any difference at all.

[@BatteryLife]

No, it was the same. It is in the video.

[@martindomscheit2004]

maybe I missed something… in 1:50 and 14:46 it was different.

[@BatteryLife]

But I said it in the middle. Right before I start I turn the climate off, turn it back on and I forget the turn driver only off. So I did the whole test like that.

[@wzDH106]

Curious what the difference would be with better COP of the heat pump. Let's say 0 to 15 C ambient temperature. Heat pump would most likely be 4 to 5 times more efficient over resistive.

[@karl-heinzoehling483]

The proportion of heating decreases with increasing vehicle speed due to the driving resistance, which is many times greater. This will also significantly reduce the heat pump advantage. A heat pump system shows advantages at low speeds in range and not on the highway. From my previous i3, I had about 5% more range.

[@wzDH106]

@@karl-heinzoehling483 Would be nice to see a direct comparison with a video, apples to apples with let's say 0C-15C. We regularly see those mild temperatures and have noted a 8-14% driving efficiency improvement with our e-Niro (heat pump) when compared to our Volt (resistive). Not a fair comparison, but both vehicles are similar in efficiency during spring and summer.

[@dekockj]

It doesn't seem like the heat pump car's average consumption was reset to 0 when the trip started.

[@BatteryLife]

Yes it was. Just not in the video.

[@dekockj]

@@BatteryLife sorry 😁 and thanks for clarifying. Can you by any chance do a review on the new e-Berlingo from Citroen? The passenger version.

[@martindomscheit2004]

You drove with AC off. Is there a dependency to consumption with this setting? I thought that the heat pump replaces the climate compressor of the AC system.

[@BatteryLife]

Yes, if heathump is cooling. Heating comes from the ptc heater in the heat pump car.

[@raphi25895]

AC is off below 3 ° C anyway

[@Denkmaschine]

@@BatteryLife the ptc is an auxiliary heater in the heat pump car. A heatpump is an inverted a/c cooling circuit, so in winter the same components are used, but the circuit is flipped. Cold part outside, warm part inside and vice versa.

[@fredrikdahlinwinscher8881]

Sorry to say this but you dont seem to have any idea why the "auto" setting in the clima is working as it does. you are actually messing up the whole climate in the car by setting it as you do. its not in any way better to manually setting it like you do and force the air and set the fan at a fixed point and shut off the AC. in auto the air will warm up quicker and distubute better and more even and the Ac will be uses when needed to keep the climate as good as possible.

[@enyaq_gorm]

Very interesting. I'm currently looking at the skoda enyaq to replace my tesla model 3 and had just assumed the heat pump was essential. What did you find with the ID4 as that's basically the same car?

[@BatteryLife]

I did not do a heat pump consumption test with the Id.4.

[@norbertmachaj6127]

why would you exchange Tesla 3 for Enyaq?

[@enyaq_gorm]

@@norbertmachaj6127 I really do not like the model 3 and really regret buying it 10 months ago.

[@enyaq_gorm]

@@BatteryLife ah ok. Actually that makes sense because the ID4 1st edition is all there is and it has a heat pump! Stupid question 😉 entschuldigung

[@norbertmachaj6127]

@@enyaq_gorm why???

[@chemobejk]

The steering wheel vibrates with heat pump? That must be a problem of the car you're driving. In my finnish 1st Plus with heat pump there is no vibration. I've also never noticed the heat pump noise when sitting inside the car. Maybe my music is too loud 😅

[@BatteryLife]

Get in the cold car, heat it up, hold the steering wheel. It vibrates a bit. Drive a non heatpump, it is quieter when you use low fan speed.

[@martindomscheit2004]

It vibrates. I also have the MAX

[@chemobejk]

@@BatteryLife sorry Chris, I can't reproduce the vibrations in my ID.3 1st *Plus*. This night it went down to -19°C. At noon it was still around -10°C when I went to the car to test this. I sat down, took the glove off, put the hand on the steering wheel and waited for the whole spiel to boot up. After waiting a while I started to switch between clima on and off for several times. BTW: consumption was 10-12kW, i.e. heat pump and battery heater were running. No vibrations. Zero, zilch, nada, nulla. I guess there must be something else in the MAX that creates the vibrations.

[@chemobejk]

To whom it may concern: my neighbour has a Webasto installed in his Volvo. The noise level when standing at the car is about the same for a running Webasto or a ID.3 pre-warming with heat pump.

[@chemobejk]

As for the heat pump noise: I have to switch off the fan to hear anything from the heat pump. The fan and especially the rushing noise from the air is much louder.

[@GameOver556]

How do you know your car is not under reporting distance? If the heatpump car report correctly Then the difference is Even bigger

[@BatteryLife]

Because I tested my car with these winter tires multiple times before and they are spot on with Google Maps. My 19 inch summer tires do not show the correct distance.

[@gaborsz.7266]

Why goes all the heat pump tests at a speed of 90 km/h? I would be very curious what is the difference at 130 km/h.

[@BatteryLife]

The speed has no impact! It is the time.

[@zipfelchefchen6816]

@@BatteryLife But the speed has an impact on the power consumption per 100 km. When you drive faster, you will spend less time heating per 100 km. Thus the difference in efficiency should shrink.

[@TheDanishSpaceman]

@@zipfelchefchen6816Well, the drive train heat loss will also increase significantly with speed, that would increase the efficiency of the heat pump as it lives off of waste heat from battery and drive chain.

[@ariearie3543]

AC keeps you also awake through fresh air.

[@BatteryLife]

Ac is not fresh, it is cooled :)

[@ariearie3543]

Sorry it is something we are getting learned in the Netherlands. Cool air? Better?

[@abraxastulammo9940]

@@ariearie3543 Outside air was -10 degrees at times, no need to fresh it up even more. ;-)

[@raphi25895]

AC has two functions: 1. Cooling the air 2. Dehumidifying the air. AC is switched off below 3 ° C because the condensation water in the condenser can freeze

[@Maxzor11]

Would you spend money on a heat pump or a option that reduces Cw by 0.02?

[@BatteryLife]

neither

[@Maxzor11]

@@BatteryLife that's what I did🤣👍

[@Dagur]

I wonder what the difference would be if the weight was the same. 60kg should make a difference

[@claudiutamas79]

Maybe if you sleep (camp) in the car over night it matters more.... ?!

[@karl-heinzoehling483]

No, see at Bjorn Nyland, because no camper-mode installed.

[@contra_plano]

It is sad do not have 4 sound colluns, why not put cheaper like Hyundai/Kia .

[@godtable]

Doesn't that mean that the ID3 with the heatpump is worse in good weather conditions because of its wight?

[@BatteryLife]

I don't think the heat pump weighs a lot.

[@glockmanish]

Another one of those tests far from reality with the totally wrong setting and thus with the wrong conclusion! - Half of the year this route starts with a cold car and (more important on the ID3) a cold battery. - The average driven trip in Germany is about 15km. So on the average the car and battery are heated up about 6,66 times every 100km. - I'll assume the average speed at around 45km/h for the whole trip. People in urban areas might reach 30km/h (or even less), in rural areas it might be more like 60km/h. - I'll assume 19kWh/100km @45km/h and 17kWh @30km/h in winter conditions. - While heating up I'll assume 2kW lower power draw for heating in the heat-pump car. And the heater will on average run 5min on full blast every time. 6,66*5min=33,3min -> 0,9 kWh/100km saving while initial heat-up. - When holding the temperature the heat-pump uses 1,2kW less power. At 45km/h you need 2,22 hours to drive 100km, minus the 0,55 hours we already calculated the heatup power saving for is 1,67. So for holding the heat you need 2kWh/100km less energy. - At 30km/h in urban areas you need 3,33 hours for 100km, minus 0,55hours for heat-up is 2,78hours. So then you even save 3,3kWh/100km for holding the temperature! Together this is 2,9kWh/100km saving in energy at 45km/h trip-average, which is about 15%! In urban areas we talk about 4,2kWh/100km at 30km/h trip-average of energy saving, about 25%!!! So making this absurd statement, that the heat pump is not worth it, when in fact it saves 15-25% energy for many people while costing less than 100€ in parts (2 extra heat exchangers and some valves, the compressor is the AC one) for the car manufacturer is kind of a scandal!

[@errcoche]

That is the right approach Dennis. It's not about range but real world energy consumption. I would always err on the side of the more efficient option while the price doesn't enter the realm of ridiculousness - we are, after all, driving EVs for the energy efficiency while we work towards a 100% clean electrical supply, and of course, energy still won't be free. I was thinking along the same lines - when you already have an AC, adding heat pump functionality really isn't that big a deal, the compressor is the high cost item. I have a Chevy Bolt and it doesn't come with a heat pump. I live in Florida so it's not a big deal but if I move North it may become one. It's the last EV I will buy without a heat pump.

[@silviuguseila2552]

Seen a lot of reports of people being asked to pay over 1000euro for heatpump repairs in out of warranty eGolfs. Not sure why you say it costs almost nothing

[@glockmanish]

​@@silviuguseila2552 ​ There is no such thing as a dedicated heatpump! It is the AC compressor with a couple of valves to reverse the flow! That is what I'm meaning with it costs almost nothing. AC systems break all the time ... nothing unique to "heatpump" cars. And by-the-way ... 1000€ for an AC repair at the VW dealer? That is actually very cheap! So nothing major could have been broken ... maybe only a leaky heat exchanger or something. Without using the AC for heating this repair might have happened 1 or 2 years later ... but it would have happened. Typical VW "cost-management" ...

[@davidbelecci6970]

The heat pump in the ID is a completely different to the normal AC in ID series. It uses all different parts and also has CO2 as refrigerant, not R1234yf like the regular AC. The CO2 system is under 90-100 bars or more of pressure so completely incomparable to any regular AC system. It is also more costly to repair, not many garages (not even all VW ones) have CO2 facilities, so you have to rely on high specialists and dealers.

[@susihormon7821]

Well. you forgot preheating with Heatpump and if the car wants to heat up the akku the numbers will change. 10 shorttrips on one charge will make a difference. Your test setup will promote your conclusion...a heatpump is worthless. I strongly disagree if you (vw) do it right. If you have the car on the plugcharger the heatpump will work with under 2000W and leaves the kWh in the battery.

[@BatteryLife]

I did a range test. Not a preheating test. Battery heater was already off.

[@BatteryLife]

On short trips heatpump won't make any difference.

[@susihormon7821]

@@BatteryLife that might be true with the betastatus. Gaining heat should be faktor 2 with a HP. 6 times defrosting on the public street, takes 3 kWh times 6. Around 20 kWh is lost. With HP eventuelly just 10 kWh. It is a big diffrence for small batteries.

[@susihormon7821]

@@BatteryLife I know. But your setting is not good for everyone. Parking w/o plugged in in winter is a horrorszenario for a car with a dump TMS.

[@zigamiklic120]

kWh/h != kWh/100km

[@BatteryLife]

No.kWh/h is when standing. It is kW. The power draw right now. kWh/100km is a consumption

[@abraxastulammo9940]

The old software in the heatpump car had a wrong unit when stationary, kWh/100km meant kW in this case (or kWh/h).

[@ThePurple1968]

putting on seat and steering wheel heaters do not test the heat pump at all. also having different weight cars with different size tyres makes a mockery of any test

[@BatteryLife]

Heat was on! Seat and steering wheel heaters take almost no power. First max and first plus with 19 and 20 inch have been tested against each other and almost no differrnce. Björn Nyland

[@SuperGURU_Ben]

@@BatteryLife nextmove Channel also testet it and found no difference. Heatpump is buggy right now and VW whants to fix it in 3.0 update. We will see 👍

[@typxxilps]

1 kWh savings per hkm in an ideal heatpump ambience temperature is more than disapointing and can not be worth 1200 €. That would mean you will have to save at 0,30€ / kWh at least 4000 kWh before you get a ROI or your money back, not considering the additional weight that comes along with a heatpump and you have to carry like a turtle its shield all over the year. You would have to drive 400.000 km in those -9°C conditions to save 1 kWh / 100 km savings and I guess that can only happen in case the next ice age is coming. Even 2 kWh saving would be too low considering that you might achieve those savings only a quarter of the year in middle europe ... or maybe 1/3 ... 2 kWh would mean you have to drive only 200.000 km but considering the ambient temperature being negativ 9 °C only for a quarter or a third of a year would lead to 4 or 3 times that amount: 800.000 or 600.000 km just to get the 1200€ for the heatpump back Yes, these were not the same cars on different rims, trims and in different colour ... and maybe even Chris hairstyle had also changed but overall: far too less savings. Let assume you double the amount of savings per 100 km to 4 kWh / 100 km. But even then you still had to drive 400.000 to 300.000 km ... and if you'd even save impossible 8 kWh / hkm you still had to drive 200.000 to 150.000 km . You need other benefits or savings to afford the heatpump - especially in the id.3 cause the savings in the model 3 are higher and there it is from now on always in the car - for a good reason I guess but that lays in the octovalve system the model Y got first and is now coming into the model 3 ... for more information check sandy munro channel about ev and tesla model y in particular cause he is owns a consulting engineering company that tear down all the major EV's sind 2012 and before dozens of cars to see the progress in production and engineering. On that channel you can find more about the general benefits of a perfect heatpump implementation but that is a different story. VW had not achieved what Tesla had achieved in the modely Y - at least yet. But I doubt that this efficiency loss can be solved by software. But the real shame is the advertizing campaign that VW had started back in spring 2020 when we picked up an e-Golf and saw the banner ads in the autostadt / autocity promising far more savings. I took a picture cause I was sceptical when I saw those figures ... But Chris at least saved 1200€ x leasing factor each months ... Thanks for the effort to do all these tests and getting cars to make it happen at the same day and similiar conditions... ! Chapeau !

[@abraxastulammo9940]

Why didn't he tear down an ID.3/4 for comparison?

[@JPetr94]

>not considering the additional weight that comes along with a heatpump and you have to carry like a turtle its shield all over the year To be honest, car with heat pump has couple extra parts in AC refrigerant loop, which cost maybe few kilos extra. At least the eGolf is like that. Maybe once battery circuit is added to the equation, +possible different octovalves, scavenging etc. it makes the difference, but we don't know exactly if it's the case for ID3.

[@abraxastulammo9940]

@@JPetr94 Just compare the range difference, it is 1-2 km afair.

[@JPetr94]

@@abraxastulammo9940 I don't know how it is connected to what i've written, exclusively about components weight. 🤷‍♂️

[@abraxastulammo9940]

@@JPetr94 It weights down the car so it gets less WLTP range? 🤷

[@JohnDoe-vx3z]

The heat pump is clearly not worth spending 1200€ extra.

[@Mekuso8]

I mean, it depends a lot on where you live and your driving patterns. It's a good thing that the option is available. Most people won't need it.

[@guenoleadamantu8939]

A stationary heater webasto is better