Guide to the Gray Waste of Hades | D&D Planescape

[@glamourweaver]

My alignment hottake on explaining neutral evil is that while Vader who was in part corrupted by his desire to bring Peace and Order to the Galaxy is Lawful Evil - Palpatine who is ONLY self-interested, and causes widespread chaos as willingly as crushing tyranny to seize what he wants is actually Neutral Evil, despite often being used as an example of Lawful Evil.

[@bretrohde7300]

Yep, Palpatine’s the man.

[@darthbrooks4933]

Vader is the paragon of LE

[@popechucky]

I try to explain it as a Sociopath

[@thomaselminster774]

Nope. Palpatine is LE because he seized power and held it to protect the galaxy from outer galaxy conquerors (forgot the name an OP biomechanical race)

[@popechucky]

@ agreed, but he did all that for his own ends.. at best, I’d call him NE, with LE tendencies… Again, all THAT was for his own ends.. I do see where you are coming from👍

[@PlanktonWhisperer]

Wade: "I'm gonna scale down my vids". Also Wade: No hate tho. Love those things being given love.

[@glamourweaver]

I can’t help but wonder if there is a philosophical statement being made in the parallelism between Elysium and the Grey Waste. Both make you want to check out from the world. Both make you make Will saves to attempt to leave. With Elysium this is framed as it being so wonderful, but the consequence is still the choice to exist in paradise rather than care about the outside world - which is a selfish form of apathy. Similar to the parallel between the utter determinism of Mechanus and the utter randomness of Limbo are both philosophical statements against the meaning of choice.

[@steved1135]

I'd say you're bang on here. Both of the 2 pairs you mention are diametrically opposed on the Wheel, so it makes sense the planar ethos, and thus its believers, the inhabitants, would manifest those aspects.

[@lolthien]

From a fiction and story perspective I totally agree with you here. Though I do have to wonder if not wanting to leave paradise and go back to the "outside world" should be considered a philosophical failure. After all, being in the outside world, isn't the goal to make things better for everyone? More like, say... Elysium? Should one be considered weak for not wanting to leave an achieved paradise in order to attempt a fruitless attempt at paradise in another world? In fact, if you take the whole set and move it down a notch, wholesale, would that mean that everyone living in the "outside world" is a weak person for not wanting to travel to the Gray Wastes and, by force of will, make the Gray Wastes a more pleasant place? Seems like that would be no less difficult than one person making the real world into a paradise? I dunno, just a thought.

[@steved1135]

@@lolthien I really like that thought. Definitely got me thinking now. Thanks.

[@suy21]

Damn, I just watched the first minutes and I am loving it as usual. You have a talent for making good scripts for this. The philosophy of Planescape and the alignments are something that you excel at IMHO. I have watched many of your other videos about philosophy/ethics and it shows that it's something in which you are informed about.

[@WadeAllen001]

Thanks for checking out my other videos!

[@joemeenie]

I like this video. The fact that you don't just read the wiki pages to us is a breath of fresh air. And you discuss and address lore inconsistencies and don't just gloss over them is helpful. Well done.

[@troybrewster102]

As an old 2E "grognard" who has spent his time rolling around the great wheel. I absolutely have to give you props. You might never get the numbers you deserve but your digging into lore and also including real world influence is second to none in my opinion. 🤘

[@gabrieldixon9621]

As much as I do find yugoloths/daemons interesting I have to admit I never use them I find they muddy the water with fiends and don't strike me with the same inspiration as demons and devils. Love the videos as always !!

[@gailengigabyte6221]

I like the idea that the Yugoloths strike a middle ground when it comes to friends of the lower planes. They dont screw people over with fine prints or technicalities, and don't outright kill something with a pulse on sight. Plus they don't actively try to corrupt mortals. They are pragmatic in every sense of the word.

[@gabrieldixon9621]

@gailengigabyte6221 I dont disagree that they have a place within the greater cosmology of dnd, but as dungeons and dragons moves away from alignment I feel they lose a lot of their identity as the "Neutral Evil ones"

[@taylorbullard2118]

I think pathfinder actually does deamons the best.

[@burakinan7040]

YEAH BABY NEW WADE ALLEN LETS GO!

[@AJPickett]

Excellent video 👍

[@littlehorn1213]

I'm not usually a commenter but this cat's channel is fuckin amazing. Thanks and keep em' coming Mr. Allen.

[@LawrenceofCanadia]

Oh hell yes dude! Your in-depth guides are the only other guides that equal the quality and vibe of AJ Pickett's DnD lore vids. Time to get the family together and watch this bad boy.

[@rainbowmothraleo]

2:11:10 - interestingly, according to the Dragon Magazine, Charon is an altraloth, a unuque yugoloth made by night hags

[@VictorMTaveras]

Awesome, I gotta put on a pot of coffee for this one. 😊 I have actually been rereading Manual of the Planes.

[@krempelritter9950]

Great video! I'm overwhelmed by so much apathy that I've become totally indefferent to my own despair while merrily painting some minis along the way.

[@canned3880]

That talk about belief in a fantasy world was actually really interesting. I dont really plan on using planescape exactly but these videos are awesome for making a possible campaign

[@ryanwhitley7649]

Thank you so much for all of your hard work and dedication to these videos. I’m a big fan of this series. Here’s to hoping we make it through all of them!!!

[@DiujLopez]

I'm going to sound like a broken record but I just love in-depth long form videos on the outer planes like these. Hearing your opinions on certain topics and how you interpret them also gives a very nice flavor to it as well. Keep up the good work!

[@nathanpfirman625]

Well I know how I'm spending the next 2 hours! These videos are THE BEST. Also you should do the Far Realm next if that counts as an outer plane.

[@WadeAllen001]

It doesn't, but I'll still count the vote!

[@Safier_Poochy]

Immediately liked and shared with my players. Before I even looked at it. Wait... that feel familiar

[@Safier_Poochy]

But I'm litte surprised about gray wast. I thought Outlands would be the next after Sigil.

[@masonbuckyall]

These continue to be my favorite DnD lore vids on KZbin. I'm rapt the entire runtime (never shorten them, please). Also I had to run and watch Black Cauldron after this.

[@dodoontherocks]

The luetin09 of d&d, really love your videos to fall asleep too. Love your voice

[@UnleashedOdinV2]

Got excited when I saw this pop up in my recommendations 😄

[@bretrohde7300]

Same.

[@BM-gt9ie]

Early christmas present 🎉

[@sturdyblastoff9300]

Finally, the fifty shades of neutral evil

[@JinZanmato]

Ah, The Grey waste. The absolutely worst place to be stranded on out of all the places.

[@DomLab-g2n]

Check out Pandemonium

[@PyroTorch69]

Yea these are like 10/10. Also 2e lore is best lore.

[@Grambo58]

I enjoyed the philosophy portion very much. One point about your person 1, person 2 and person 3 analogy. You didn't ask what happens when you remove person 1. The apathetic person, in the extreme, would never help the child. They would leave it to its own ends, which could be argued is way more evil. Thanks for the video.

[@Mortablunt]

Wake up wake up! New Wade Allen lore post!

[@daffyduck76]

Your videos are perfect for listening to while worldbuilding. SOOOO, I'm going to need you to cover every topic there is in D&D. Thanks.

[@WadeAllen001]

That may take quite a while, but I'll do what I can.

[@Mentlegenium]

Wade, I watch your channel since the Seven Heavens video, and your videos are pure, absolute gold. Your analyses of DnD’s planes are top-notch and I genuinely love your videos. Cheers!

[@archmage_of_the_aether]

Good take on alignment. Hows this for the GW: Neutral evil only wants for itself The NE grey wastes take for itself Unless your presence there takes more than the environment, then you lose

[@m3w]

This is so well worked out - thank you for the time and effort!

[@lantyrnpc7183]

Thank you for making these! Can’t wait for the other 13!

[@justadude740]

was waiting for more of these i love them and i hope you keep em coming

[@beragdan]

A fresh drop this close to Christmas! Another banger video, hope you have a great holiday season ⛄️

[@WadeAllen001]

You too, thanks!

[@Gnome5150]

Hells yeah Wade love your stuff thanks for the early Christmas present. Would you consider an episode on the Far Realms and/or Elder Evils it would be insane 😂

[@WadeAllen001]

You're not the only one to ask for the far realm. I'll add it to the list!

[@Time-yn8me]

Great vid! I'd love to see what you can come up with for a deep dive on Acheron

[@kajetanmazurkiewicz5459]

I love your videos! I'm looking forward going through all the planes and have them available in my dm toolkit 😁

[@elijahmonster]

These videos are awesome. Do more!

[@eidolon-0696]

Been years since I clicked on something so fast.

[@darthbrooks4933]

New sleepy time video

[@battlepans1927]

I love your channel so much

[@geoaltman9344]

You got a great voice to fall asleep to! My comment isnt weird unless you make it weird...

[@Araviss-sis]

Thank you for the video, your calm voice is so good to listen to when I do chores :D Although I usually sit down and rewatch it later to make little notes so I keep the info in my head :) Your vids got me into really liking the planescape setting, I would like to play a campaing in it one day. Btw, would you ever do a vid about Feywild or Shadowfell? Yours are my go to sources for lore and I did not find a video about these two planes that went so in depth like yours do. Idk if those two were in 2e or is it later addition?

[@WadeAllen001]

Yeah those didn't exist in 2e. They came about in 4th edition. The plane of shadow did exist, which later turned into the Shadowfell, but as of 2e it was just a demiplane in the ethereal. 3rd edition introduced the plane of faerie, which then became the Feywild in 4e. Before that the role of the Feywild (the home of faeries and elves) was filled by Arborea. I think I'll do videos on those planes eventually, but unless I get a ton of comments asking for them I think I'd like to finish all the outer planes first.

[@Araviss-sis]

@@WadeAllen001 Thank you for the reply, even if it takes years, I'll happily wait for your take on those two planes and watch other stuff you release in the meantime :)

[@youcantbeatk7006]

I always liked and thought it was a very smart decision to deliberately have contradictory myths in the D&D lore because not only does it put the players in their character's shoes for not fully knowing the lore, but it also gives DMs ways to have mysteries and plot twists built into the setting even if the players know the lore intimately.

[@bretrohde7300]

Finally, Neutral Evil is getting the respect it deserves!

[@zsdmrtzmrde]

Love these videos

[@jujujohnson01]

there is a difference between neutral evil and psychotic evil

[@tsuki8957]

FUCK YEAHHH!!! New plane just dropped

[@RevocerGM]

Oh, I've just run an adventure for the Gray Wastes - really interesting place to adventure. But found it really hard to find that balance, where the apathy still leads to something the player can action on. I found myself resorting to a really bleak version of hell, rather than just apathy

[@WadeAllen001]

Yeah in my experience the outer planes are so devoted to a certain vibe that they're best used as short visits to each rather than spending many sessions in a row in the same one.

[@joshremis4274]

Oh my God I'm gonna start a campaign on this plane (dm shenanigans to escape) and this might just be perfect timing. We play in like 2 hours

[@vokkera6995]

I was right in the middle of commenting on the banality of evil, and how the ABUNDANCE of apathy is what makes it so bad, and then you brought up Hannah Arendt lol

[@steved1135]

Fantastic. Thanks Wade. I can't remember if I voted for this or Mechanus, but I've always loved the Gray Waste ( such a chore for me to spell 'gray' with an "a" as I'm Canadian, but hey, in D&D it's canon...). Pre Planescape, given the numerous Greek mythology references ( much like Tartatus/Carceri... ) I always had a hard time 'populating' this plane. The Planescape introduction of defining the planes around a particular ethos however, definitely rendered it much more reasonable to me. As did that approach to all other outer planes. I think the aspect of despair works perfectly for a representation of NE. I know philosophically it's difficult to wrestle with, but it's important to remember that despair and anguish can be equated to hopelessness. And that, coupled with self interest, leads to indiscriminate selfish behaviour. All options are open, if it takes one's fancy, and it pleases oneself. Ah The Gray Waste, utter solipsistic desire. And how can one not love the Yugoloths? Great stuff.

[@glamourweaver]

Thingol might secretly tolerate the Sensate underground because they’re stopping the town from falling into the Grey Wastes, where she’d suddenly fall beneath the Hags and the Yugoloths in the power structure

[@WadeAllen001]

I like that idea.

[@TheOtherSteel]

I have often wondered about the Dungeons and Dragons view on the Styx's waters making people forget. That is the role of the river Lethe.

[@shaggyzor]

Thank you!

[@AllGone]

Can we talk about why you’re afraid of pickles?

[@WadeAllen001]

No

[@AllGone]

So salty, like delicious dill pickles, and yet your content is so savory, like bread and butter pickles. Try as you might, run as far as you can, hide wherever you may flee… The pickle comes for you, and in the end all shall feel the crunch.

[@1casper234]

another one!!!!

[@ckmishn3664]

30:12 By your reasoning, anytime someone goes unconcious they effectively die, and the person who gains conciousness afterwards is a new person. Arguably that means that people die every time they sleep, and certainly means they die when they enter a coma or go under general anaesthesia.

[@WadeAllen001]

No, because they have memories of before they went unconscious that connects them to their past. I think I said that. I can understand the confusion a bit because I did say "the thing that keeps you you despite any of the changes you go through is your stream of consciousness that connects your past self to your present self. If you sever that connection, you've just killed one person and created a new one." By consciousness there I did not just mean wakefulness. Consciousness doesn't really have one consistent definition. Perhaps to be more clear I could've just said "memory." But I did also explain myself by saying "if you were to erase your memories and put your mind into a new body, I'd say you're functionally not even the same person anymore."

[@sussybaka8560]

yippee

[@glamourweaver]

I think it makes sense if the Wall of the Faithless is just what happens to the sufficiently evil souls that fall under Kelemvor’s judgment. It’s the faithless because regardless of your morality, if another god has claim to you, you don’t go to Kelemvore’s city of the dead. But also if your morality means you belong on another plane you aren’t sentenced to that. So the Wall of the Faithless has the triple requirement - Neutral Evil enough to belong in the Grey Wastes - From Realmspace so under Kelemvore’s judgment - no strong ties of belief or worship for any other god to claim the soul Which means it’s Kelemvore’s move to deny the Yugoloth’s and Hags more Larvae.

[@steved1135]

Post watch: I for one enjoyed that Fugue plane/Wall of the Faithless/non-belief discussion. I have to admit I've struggled with similar in the past. I think the first time I ran into such a case of confusion was when reading the OG 2E PS box set, and read about Yen-Wang-Yeh's Palace of Judgement in the Outlands. I found it an odd and jarring inclusion, as it had earlier been established that the spirits of the dead went to the Outer plane that matched their Alignment. Thereafter, local rules apply. But then I thought, sure, lots of cultures contain ideas of 'judgment' to decide the ultimate fate of a spirit. Searching sources, I don't recall finding any more such 'temporary pitstop' variations on the standard protocol, so I figured it must be religion specific. My over-analytic mind abhors these kinds of exceptions but, on the other hand it does add favour.

[@Safier_Poochy]

Perhaps due to the strict order in the ranks of the Yugoloths, they have therefore moved to Gehena. Gehena is an evil plane that strives a little more towards Lawful. So that Yuholoths have effectively undergone a cosmic realignment. Away from pure evil and towards a little more order.

[@WindsofFuture]

30:11 I don’t know if you play video games, but if you do you’ve gotta play SOMA. It’s all about this!

[@username_undeleted]

With Kelemvor being lawful, I would think that the wall of the faithless would be for souls that broke the laws of their faith so severely that they are scorned by their god. Similar to a 3e oathbreaker paladin, only not to an extreme that they are picked up by a god of the opposite alignment. Like if a druid of Mielikki burned down a forest they were sworn to protect after losing faith in their god. I think of it more like wall of the faith-lost than the faith-less.

[@joaquingarraza9716]

that apathy evil is the one expressed by Tolkien and Dr. Seuss

[@rudra3763]

What would be the 7 types of good for the upper planes? did you make this up or is this somewhere?

[@WadeAllen001]

Those 7 types of evil I made up based on the descriptions of those planes.

[@SavageReality]

"More Weight" - Giles Corey

[@Tausami]

The conception of evil in the gray wastes is the philosophical/religious position that evil is rhe absence of good. Its also just like that because it's inspired by the unpleasant afterlife of the fields of asphodel in greek mythology, and it didnt make any sense to call the Fields of Asphodel lawful or chaotic so they made them neutral

[@ckmishn3664]

1:04:50 "And stretches across 3 streets of the town..." That would be the town with only one street?

[@WadeAllen001]

Maybe I didn't phrase it well enough. It stretches across 3 loops of the street, because the street forms a spiral.

[@rainbowmothraleo]

1:36:10 - I feel like this bit about not going to afterlife if you don't believe in it is dumb. Also, we do know animals have an afterlife. How are they know it exists?

[@rainbowmothraleo]

29:50 - if we go by Tolkien rules, planeborn larvae wouldn't be able to even theoretically renounce their evil ways

[@timothystephens6851]

I feel like I'm watching a review of the end of DS3 Ringed City's ending.

[@spooky_zen]

the nature of the grey waste kinda makes it hard to develope stories for

[@corpsmanh]

So the the Gray Wastes sounds like cronic depression in location form.

[@BrandonFalconberry-w1m]

Hey going thru it now .. I think the apathy thing is when good people do nothing, that is the greatest evil .... At least that's how I always translated it

[@otakunemesis34]

One day I will see all the planes inner and outer

[@WadeAllen001]

That'll be in six years at my current rate.

[@rainbowmothraleo]

3:10 - one of the most atrocious thing 4e has ever done. In our day and age it is pretty clear that Law isn't closer to good than Chaos

[@attackboss6]

Didn't this channel have a different name yesterday

[@WadeAllen001]

You may be thinking of a different channel. This one's just been my name since I made it.

[@User-r5g5f]

Hannah Arendt was evil herself, so it’s funny she wrote a book on another kind of evil 😂

[@WadeAllen001]

Do you mean more evil than the average person? If so, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why.

[@TheSpicyLeg]

6:03 Believe it or not, but apathy is closer to true evil than it may appear on the surface. Modern people attach far more significance on motivation or intention than historically was given. A murder because of some characteristic the offender dislikes is not really more morally objectionable than the same act to get their car keys, but this is way too involved a discussion for now. To our ancestors, an act was good or evil not because of the intention, but the result. A conqueror exterminating a city’s population was judged by neutral parties based on the result of the conqueror’s rule, the policies he favored, and the daily lives of the people. In that vein, apathy was seen as evil, be it a king’s or a common man’s, because he has no desire for virtue. For example, Moses being left on the Nile in a basket would be seen as an evil act to us, but to our ancestors, it was an attempt to save his future. Yecheved could have acted with apathy, after all, it was not her decree that threatened Moses’s life and had he been found by Pharoah’s men, she wouldn’t be morally responsible for what happened. Apathy is so closely tied to evil because evil relies on it to succeed.

[@chriscormack7539]

Pandemonium

[@youcantbeatk7006]

Mythical Algorithm Pull

[@Safier_Poochy]

1.21-40 "to many reptile Race in dnd" That's the first sentence where I have to disagree with you. Personally, I find the reptilian creatures more interesting than the many mammalian creatures.

[@destonlee2838]

Nice video. I'm not feeling it.

[@gooflydo]

My God, I just want to know about the plane. I don't want to know about the moral implications. What someone from one part of the world thinks what is good or evil. D&d is global, so what we would consider good or evil is vastly different than what other people would consider morally good or morally evil.

[@WadeAllen001]

Thus why I included timestamps, and even said right before that section to use timestamps if you aren't interested in certain sections.

[@StrangeCreed]

Was about to listen and subscribe, but then I noticed what the rest of your channel is about. Not interested in supporting a chap like you with my views.